Obama Administration To Argue In Court That They Can Spy On Americans With Impunity .

[Noir]

Commentary on the story -

The Obama administration is set to argue to a federal appeals court Friday that the government may breach, with impunity, domestic spying laws adopted in the wake of President Richard M. Nixon’s Watergate scandal.The case tests whether Americans may seek recourse or monetary damages when a sitting U.S. president bypasses Congress’s ban on warrantless spying on Americans — in this instance when President George W. Bush authorized his secret, warrantless domestic spying program in the aftermath of the September 2001 terror attacks.

The government appealed (http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2011/02/feds-appealing-wiretap-defeat/) to the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals, and arguments before a three-judge panel are set to be heard in Pasadena, California, this Friday.

Congress, with the vote of President Barack Obama — who was an Illinois senator at the time — subsequently legalized much of the warrantless spying (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSA_electronic_surveillance_program) in the summer of 2008. The legislation also provided the nation’s telecommunication companies immunity from lawsuits accusing them of being complicit with the government’s warrantless wiretapping.

The Obama Administration claims said it cannot be held liable under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, and that Congress has not waived sovereign immunity — meaning the government has not consented to being sued for breaching its own laws.

Wired article on it. - http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2012/05/warrantless-spying-challenge/

[SassyLady]

If they are willing to spy with impunity on their own citizenry, imagine the lengths they are already going to in order to spy on non-citizens ... even those not living within US borders.

[ConHog]

I happen to believe that it is NOT a Constitutional violation for the government to "spy" on Americans through the phone system, internet, or what have you IF they permission from the entity who owns the medium.

For example. If my wife the DA had permission from Jim to dig through Sassy's PMs then Sassy has no basis to complain that her rights have been violated.

I think people sometimes forget the "reasonable expectation of privacy" when thinking about their rights.

Now , as far as the government strong arming telecoms to cooperate with them and such, I don't like it but again, only the telecoms have standing to complain, if indeed they have a complaint.

Now , if the government is making an end run and not even asking the telecoms, that's another matter entirely.

[jimnyc]

I can hear Obama now - "We can and will spy on you, but only because George W. Bush made it capable, don't blame us folks who have to unwillingly spy based on what he left behind for us"

[ConHog]

I can hear Obama now - "We can and will spy on you, but only because George W. Bush made it capable, don't blame us folks who have to unwillingly spy based on what he left behind for us"

I actually could see him seeing that . LOL

and WS come running back here screaming "BOOOSH!!!!"

[SassyLady]

I happen to believe that it is NOT a Constitutional violation for the government to "spy" on Americans through the phone system, internet, or what have you IF they permission from the entity who owns the medium.

For example. If my wife the DA had permission from Jim to dig through Sassy's PMs then Sassy has no basis to complain that her rights have been violated.

I think people sometimes forget the "reasonable expectation of privacy" when thinking about their rights.

Now , as far as the government strong arming telecoms to cooperate with them and such, I don't like it but again, only the telecoms have standing to complain, if indeed they have a complaint.

Now , if the government is making an end run and not even asking the telecoms, that's another matter entirely.

Now, ConHog, I see no problem with that if your wife wanted to look at everyone's PMs and didn't just single me out. What does she think ... I'm flirting with you? :laugh:

[ConHog]

Now, ConHog, I see no problem with that if your wife wanted to look at everyone's PMs and didn't just single me out. What does she think ... I'm flirting with you? :laugh:

I meant if she wanted access officially as an ADA not as a wife. LOL.

She trusts me as completely as I trust her, so no worries there.

[WiccanLiberal]

Interestingly, you may already have been spied on in many instance. I have long time friend in Texas. Her family has several members in the military and at least one has a mega high security clearance. This means that periodically they tap the phone, among other things. When the phone signal abruptly goes hollow and echoey, she resorts to nonsense conversation she calls Bubbanese. I am not sure what anyone listening in would make of it.

[SassyLady]

Interestingly, you may already have been spied on in many instance. I have long time friend in Texas. Her family has several members in the military and at least one has a mega high security clearance. This means that periodically they tap the phone, among other things. When the phone signal abruptly goes hollow and echoey, she resorts to nonsense conversation she calls Bubbanese. I am not sure what anyone listening in would make of it.


My ex was also military with high security clearance ..... never had that problem with my phone.

[Thunderknuckles]

The government will protect us folks. This song says it all by Perfect Circle - The Pet:


Lay your head down child
I won't let the boogeyman come
Countin' bodies like sheep
To the rhythm of the war drums
Pay no mind to the rabble
Pay no mind to the rabble
Head down, go to sleep
To the rhythm of the war drums

Pay no mind what other voices say
They don't care about you, like I do, (like I do)
Safe from pain, and truth, and choice, and other poison devils,
See, they don't give a fuck about you, like I do.

Just stay with me,
safe and ignorant, go,
back to sleep, go
back to sleep

Lay your head down child
I won't let the boogeyman come
Countin' bodies like sheep
To the rhythm of the war drums
Pay no mind to the rabble
Pay no mind to the rabble
Head down, go to sleep
To the rhythm of the war drums


I'll be the one to protect you from
Your enemies and all your demons
I'll be the one to protect you from
A will to survive and a voice of reason
I'll be the one to protect you from
Your enemies and your choices son
They're one and the same
I must isolate you
Isolate and save you from yourself


Swayin' to the rhythm of the new world order and
Counting bodies like sheep to the rhythm of the war drums
The boogeymen are coming
The boogeymen are coming
Keep your head down, go to sleep
To the rhythm of the war drums

Stay with me
Safe and ignorant
Just stay with me
I'll hold you and protect you from the other ones,
The evil ones, don't love you son,
Go back to sleep.

[Noir]

Interestingly, you may already have been spied on in many instance. I have long time friend in Texas. Her family has several members in the military and at least one has a mega high security clearance. This means that periodically they tap the phone, among other things. When the phone signal abruptly goes hollow and echoey, she resorts to nonsense conversation she calls Bubbanese. I am not sure what anyone listening in would make of it.

I reckon she just needs to buy a new phone :thumb:

[Dilloduck]

hey---you have no grounds to "reckon". :coffee:

[SassyLady]

hey---you have no grounds to "reckon". :coffee:

He's been watching "Good Christian Bitches" too much.

[DragonStryk72]

I happen to believe that it is NOT a Constitutional violation for the government to "spy" on Americans through the phone system, internet, or what have you IF they permission from the entity who owns the medium.

For example. If my wife the DA had permission from Jim to dig through Sassy's PMs then Sassy has no basis to complain that her rights have been violated.

I think people sometimes forget the "reasonable expectation of privacy" when thinking about their rights.

Now , as far as the government strong arming telecoms to cooperate with them and such, I don't like it but again, only the telecoms have standing to complain, if indeed they have a complaint.

Now , if the government is making an end run and not even asking the telecoms, that's another matter entirely.

That's just it, though. On the phone, you are expecting to have a one-on-one call with the person you've called, and no one else. That's exactly what "Right to Privacy" is supposed to protect. The fact that they were warrantless means that they weren't getting permissions, they just do it, and really, what are the telecoms gonna say when the federal government asks? Any specifics will get blanketed with "It's a matter of National Security", and that's that.

[logroller]

It's not just big brother, its an industry in itself.

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[Nell's Room]

No one has the right to listen in your personal phone conversations, or to intercept your private emails. Personal and private mean just that - your comments are for your own eyes and the person you are speaking with, no one else.

I think Obama has done an alright job, but I would strongly disagree with him on this.

[SassyLady]

I think Obama has done an alright job,

May I ask what you think he's done an "alright job" doing?

[Nell's Room]

May I ask what you think he's done an "alright job" doing?

You can't accept much from someone who doesn't live in the US but I just think he is better than Bush. I like his ideas on healthcare, for a start and his changing opinion on gay marriage is also a good thing, IMO.
I think he is better than Bush and better than Romney, is all. He isn't perfect but he is trying.

[DragonStryk72]

You can't accept much from someone who doesn't live in the US but I just think he is better than Bush. I like his ideas on healthcare, for a start and his changing opinion on gay marriage is also a good thing, IMO.
I think he is better than Bush and better than Romney, is all. He isn't perfect but he is trying.

Better doesn't mean "good", or even "alright". It's like someone shitting on your shoes as opposed to the guy who shit in your hand. It's "better", but you're still getting shit on.

His changing opinion on gay marriage was when he went from supporting it to not supporting it, in order to get elected. Yeah, now he's back to being behind it just in time for election cycle.... again. The gay community is being used by him to win votes with no payback, and they should be both insulted and horrified at the treatment.

If he was going to legalize gay marriage, he would have done it in the two years he had where Dems controlled both the House and Senate.

His ideas on Healthcare are unsupportable with the very budget he has put together. We're hitting our debt ceiling repeatedly now, so it's not even vaguely possible to pull any of it off at this point.

[Nell's Room]

Didn't you choose to raise the debt ceiling not so long ago to avoid having to pay all that money back? America is creating its own problems by continuing to raise that debt ceiling.

[SassyLady]

Didn't you choose to raise the debt ceiling not so long ago to avoid having to pay all that money back? America is creating its own problems by continuing to raise that debt ceiling.

Yes, we know that. But those of us who are willing to let the chips fall where they may are called crazy.

[DragonStryk72]

Didn't you choose to raise the debt ceiling not so long ago to avoid having to pay all that money back? America is creating its own problems by continuing to raise that debt ceiling.

Yup, and those of us who were against raising it -because we knew the spending would just continue to increase- were told they wanted to "destroy America".

[Nell's Room]

Yup, and those of us who were against raising it -because we knew the spending would just continue to increase- were told they wanted to "destroy America".

I thought you lot were insane to even think of raising the debt ceiling because in a few months, the politicians would be discussing raising it even more. Eventually you won't be able to raise it further and won't have a choice but to start paying back all that money.

[SassyLady]

You can't accept much from someone who doesn't live in the US but I just think he is better than Bush. I like his ideas on healthcare, for a start and his changing opinion on gay marriage is also a good thing, IMO.
I think he is better than Bush and better than Romney, is all. He isn't perfect but he is trying.

So, that's what you base your opinion on ... comparison to Bush? Why not compare his spending spree, or his investments in green energy that have been a crucial failure, or his?

He's out of touch with average Americans; has weak leadership skills; we are drowning in debt; his speeches are boring and repetitive; etc.

The biggest gripe I have with him is that he doesn't believe in American exceptionalism, which I know isn't important to a foreigner.

[logroller]

So, that's what you base your opinion on ... comparison to Bush? Why not compare his spending spree, or his investments in green energy that have been a crucial failure, or his?

He's out of touch with average Americans; has weak leadership skills; we are drowning in debt; his speeches are boring and repetitive; etc.

The biggest gripe I have with him is that he doesn't believe in American exceptionalism, which I know isn't important to a foreigner.

In defense of Nelly, let's just compare two separate interactions by bush and Obama with foreign leaders: bush pukes and Obama bows.:laugh:

[SassyLady]

In defense of Nelly, let's just compare two separate interactions by bush and Obama with foreign leaders: bush pukes and Obama bows.:laugh:

Which one was involuntary and which one wasn't?

[Nukeman]

In defense of Nelly, let's just compare two separate interactions by bush and Obama with foreign leaders: bush pukes and Obama bows.:laugh:
That was Bush 1 not 2...

[jimnyc]

You can't accept much from someone who doesn't live in the US but I just think he is better than Bush. I like his ideas on healthcare, for a start and his changing opinion on gay marriage is also a good thing, IMO.
I think he is better than Bush and better than Romney, is all. He isn't perfect but he is trying.

2 of the biggest hurdles he'll have to overcome in order to be re-elected. The majority of Americans think his healthcare plan sucks and want it axed or at the very least changed. And while he "changed his mind" on gay marriage, he refuses to add it to his campaign platform. In other words, he paid lip service, but won't promise to help the gays.

As to the last part... Not sure how it is over there, but here in the US you don't get points for "trying", you get points for DOING. And he really hasn't done much of anything, other than place us further in economical hell, raise unemployment, spend $5 trillion, watch gas prices triple...

I'd love to know what he is/was trying. When you have the presidency AND all of congress as Democrats, and you STILL fail, that pretty much means you and your ideas suck.

[jimnyc]

Didn't you choose to raise the debt ceiling not so long ago to avoid having to pay all that money back? America is creating its own problems by continuing to raise that debt ceiling.

Politicians chose, primarily Obama and his cohorts. You'll find that "conservatives" are for smaller government and MUCH LESS debt. But Democrats think sprinkling money on every little issue will fix all that is wrong.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Politicians chose, primarily Obama and his cohorts. You'll find that "conservatives" are for smaller government and MUCH LESS debt. But Democrats think sprinkling money on every little issue will fix all that is wrong.

Sprinkling that money around usually only fixes somebody's bank account. Most often the accounts of the problems 's creators =politicians, associates ,business partners, family and close friends !
Our greatest problem is that the politicians think they are there to be served rather than to serve!
Power corrupts, big money so often infects and politicians are addicted to more and more of both..--Tyr