Learning How to Debate

[Wind Song]

I've never taken debate classes and I'm obviously unskilled at it. Any suggestions are greatly appreciated. Keep in mind I'm attending to POSITIVE feedback. Tell me how to do it, not how not to do it.

Thanks.

[fj1200]

Challenge the premise. Don't get sucked into arguing their false assumptions.

[Wind Song]

Challenge the premise. Don't get sucked into arguing their false assumptions.

Can you give me an example?

[Wind Song]

Research all information around "the point."
Pick a side to debate. There are always two (or more) ideas to a debate or points to argue. You must select one viewpoint and follow it through. If you are a little iffy on your argument, it will appear in your debate. You do not even have to agree with your argument, you just must commit to it in order to create a strong debate.
Once you have researched both sides to a point, you must begin creating your debate.
Like an essay, a debate point is a formulaic. It has an introduction, evidence, and a conclusion. The main difference is that most debates are oral. You speak in public, sometimes extemporaneously.
Your point must have an introduction, but not a flowery introduction. Usually, you just jump to the point. You can open with a general thought or anecdote, but do not veer too far from the subject matter or else people will start fidgeting. They will not listen to your debate.
Gather at least three pieces of evidence. Have them prepared ahead of time. You may not use them all while speaking. However, you will always have more the enough information to fall back on if there is an uncomfortable silence.
Conclude your debate by disproving the opponent's point. You will then reaffirm the certitude of your point by repeating your thesis statement aloud.





http://www.bookrags.com/articles/31.html (http://www.bookrags.com/articles/31.html)

[fj1200]

^A bit formal for a debate site but not bad.


Can you give me an example?

Like this response to MtnBiker:


It's "fair" because that citizen lives in a country with duly elected representatives who have enacted legislation to address a societal problem. Your example is not "fair" because that's not how it works in our country, all citizens are treated in the same manner and subject to the same laws and not the random theft as in your scenario. Now, our system may be an example of counter-intuitive incentives with aspects of enabling those who will choose not to help themselves but that is beside the point of your example.

[darin]

Google "Logical Fallacies" - study the list from Nizkor Project. When you have a good handle on what a Logical Fallacy IS, decide if you CARE if your thinking is based on them. That is to say, does logic matter to you.


Be open to a few things:

1) You may be wrong
2) You might have a bad thinking process
3) Your paradigm affects your view on the issue, but does not define the issue - does not make your viewpoint correct

[Wind Song]

When I first came to this forum, I don't think it occurred to me that this is a place where people are serious about debate. I'd participated in many political forums that were nothing more than shouting matches and repetitive "going no place" conversations. I learned to match that kind of style, which was continuous ad hominem, and the nastiest person won.

I can't say I started out wanting to learn to debate, but I'm open to it now.

I have on occassion looked at logical fallacies and have been discouraged from learning to debate. I recognized most of what I was seeing in "debate" was logical fallacy.

It's true I lead with my heart over my brain. I'm not sure that will change but I do admire people who argue well. I'm fairly intelligent, but I'm no scientist, nor am I particularly skilled in logic. Philosophy bored the snot out of me in college.

I'm trained in liberal arts, and social sciences.

[fj1200]

When I first came to this forum, I don't think it occurred to me that this is a place where people are serious about debate. I'd participated in many political forums that were nothing more than shouting matches and repetitive "going no place" conversations. I learned to match that kind of style, which was continuous ad hominem, and the nastiest person won.

I can't say I started out wanting to learn to debate, but I'm open to it now.

Some are so ignore the ones who aren't unless you like them/get along with them. Whether the debates go anywhere or not is unknown but we can reasonably disagree.

[Wind Song]

Some are so ignore the ones who aren't unless you like them/get along with them. Whether the debates go anywhere or not is unknown but we can reasonably disagree.

Yes, that's possible. In my case, it's a learning that is coming out of complete failure. I accept responsibility for going about entering this community all the wrong ways.

Nonetheless, I have about five people on ignore, for now. Hopefully, I can address the posts that I enjoy reading and challenge myself to write some that other people enjoy.

[Kathianne]

Sky, see my post about the Islamic girl in my class. Her argument went no where, as she argued against her premise:

http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?35198-Islamic-Veil/page3&p=551697#post551697

[Wind Song]

Sky, see my post about the Islamic girl in my class. Her argument went no where, as she argued against her premise:

http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?35198-Islamic-Veil/page3&p=551697#post551697


Thank you for showing me this. I'm going to have read it repeatedly. I think I make similar mistakes in debate. I'm rather slow on debate. I'm not stupid person, but I'm not skilled at this at all.

This sentence particularly interests me:

Eventually she changed her topic, she just couldn't argue against Islamic countries, nor could she bring herself to argue that no one was forced.

So, actually she was in a bind. She couldn't argue against Islamic countries, more than likely out of family loyalty, and as an American, she could not bring herself to admit that the dress is forced to a large extent.

At least, that's my best guess. This is pretty interesting.

[ConHog]

I've never taken debate classes and I'm obviously unskilled at it. Any suggestions are greatly appreciated. Keep in mind I'm attending to POSITIVE feedback. Tell me how to do it, not how not to do it.

Thanks.

As I've told you before. Accept that just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they hate you. If we're arguing gay marriage , for example, accept that someone can be anti gay marriage but not hate YOU personally.

[Wind Song]

I'm open to POSITIVE suggestions.

[ConHog]

I'm open to POSITIVE suggestions.


As I've told you before. Accept that just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they hate you. If we're arguing gay marriage , for example, accept that someone can be anti gay marriage but not hate YOU personally.

^^ THIS is a positive suggestion Sky. Don't let a debate get personal where pretty soon you're feeling the need to defend anything more than the topic of the thread.

[Kathianne]

Thank you for showing me this. I'm going to have read it repeatedly. I think I make similar mistakes in debate. I'm rather slow on debate. I'm not stupid person, but I'm not skilled at this at all.

This sentence particularly interests me:

Eventually she changed her topic, she just couldn't argue against Islamic countries, nor could she bring herself to argue that no one was forced.

So, actually she was in a bind. She couldn't argue against Islamic countries, more than likely out of family loyalty, and as an American, she could not bring herself to admit that the dress is forced to a large extent.

At least, that's my best guess. This is pretty interesting.

She wasn't American, none of her family. However, she was trying to be fair. She knew that there are many Muslim women that choose hajib, burka, etc. for religious reasons. They embrace it, not a negative towards themselves. She knows that many Westerners consider those wearing hajib, burka, etc., assume they are forced to do so. She knows the Westerners are wrong.

Problem came in on getting her ducks in a row. To separate those who choose, from those forced. Yes, she recognizes that in Iran, Afghanistan where Taliban controls, the penalties are severe, including death. Truly her dissonance I think came from which 'wrong' was worse. The Westerners for saying untruth or Islamics killing or severely punishing heretics. She chose to change subject rather than come down on one side.

[DragonStryk72]

When I first came to this forum, I don't think it occurred to me that this is a place where people are serious about debate. I'd participated in many political forums that were nothing more than shouting matches and repetitive "going no place" conversations. I learned to match that kind of style, which was continuous ad hominem, and the nastiest person won.

I can't say I started out wanting to learn to debate, but I'm open to it now.

I have on occassion looked at logical fallacies and have been discouraged from learning to debate. I recognized most of what I was seeing in "debate" was logical fallacy.

It's true I lead with my heart over my brain. I'm not sure that will change but I do admire people who argue well. I'm fairly intelligent, but I'm no scientist, nor am I particularly skilled in logic. Philosophy bored the snot out of me in college.

I'm trained in liberal arts, and social sciences.

No one is telling you not to follow your heart, but debate using your head, and accept that sometimes, you're just going to be wrong. We've all been there on here, and we've all gotten a little too heated, because we all inherently care about we're discussing, so that's gonna happen. The key is being able to pull yourself back from it, and no when you've said your full piece on a subject. Their doesn't really have to be a winner and a loser.

There have been several times where I've walked into a debate talking about what I've seen of the oppositions position, and trying to bring across that perspective on the argument. Usually, I reserve this for when I feel a particular line of thought isn't being represented, and should be talked about.

My biggest thing is making sure not to tell people how they feel. This is probably the biggest debating no-no there is, because there is not a single person on this Earth who likes being told how they feel, and so all that gets accomplish is getting their blood up, and the debate starts to go away. It's also often used as a way to slight someone in a backhanded way, using it in a pejorative manner to evoke an emotional response.

[DragonStryk72]

Sky, see my post about the Islamic girl in my class. Her argument went no where, as she argued against her premise:

http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?35198-Islamic-Veil/page3&p=551697#post551697

See, I could have argued that one, lol. She could have switched context without switching topic, using the historical evidence of women being the most strict enforcers of Victorian ideals back in their time, both in Europe, and in the United States. While there were opponents to that ideology, there were thousands upon thousands of women who truly believed in those same ideals, and to be sure, they weren't all bad ones.

[darin]

screw you, CH - you're WRONG.




























:cheers2::2up:

[ConHog]

screw you, CH - you're WRONG.




























:cheers2::2up:

DMP I'm married, as you well know being wrong comes with the territory. LOL

[Kathianne]

See, I could have argued that one, lol. She could have switched context without switching topic, using the historical evidence of women being the most strict enforcers of Victorian ideals back in their time, both in Europe, and in the United States. While there were opponents to that ideology, there were thousands upon thousands of women who truly believed in those same ideals, and to be sure, they weren't all bad ones.

I doubt you'd have earned her an A. I've seen you turn on a dime. "Muslims should, blah, blah." Then minutes later, "How dare you say that Muslims, blah, blah, you know that's not so...'

Another, "I'm not protecting Sky..." "Don't respond Sky, just be quiet, I'm reporting. I've magical reporting powers. Jim loves me."

[Wind Song]

^^ THIS is a positive suggestion Sky. Don't let a debate get personal where pretty soon you're feeling the need to defend anything more than the topic of the thread.


Positive suggestions are things to do, rather NOT do. To restate your suggestion that would be to keep the debate topic non-personal. Thanks. Great idea.

[Wind Song]

No one is telling you not to follow your heart, but debate using your head, and accept that sometimes, you're just going to be wrong. We've all been there on here, and we've all gotten a little too heated, because we all inherently care about we're discussing, so that's gonna happen. The key is being able to pull yourself back from it, and no when you've said your full piece on a subject. Their doesn't really have to be a winner and a loser.

There have been several times where I've walked into a debate talking about what I've seen of the oppositions position, and trying to bring across that perspective on the argument. Usually, I reserve this for when I feel a particular line of thought isn't being represented, and should be talked about.

My biggest thing is making sure not to tell people how they feel. This is probably the biggest debating no-no there is, because there is not a single person on this Earth who likes being told how they feel, and so all that gets accomplish is getting their blood up, and the debate starts to go away. It's also often used as a way to slight someone in a backhanded way, using it in a pejorative manner to evoke an emotional response.

I may be wrong in my facts, I may be wrong in my premise and assumptions. I am NOT wrong about how I feel. I can speak that truth from the authority of my own experience.

Pulling back before things get too heated is a very good suggestion. Yes, there doesn't have to be a winner and loser.

I've had the experience here of people not only telling what I feel but telling me what I am. I can accept suggestions that address what I'm doing or not doing, but not what I am.

It doesn't matter what other people do, because I have no control over them. I can do a better job of avoiding telling people what they feel or who they are.

It goes both ways. Don't call me stupid, idiotic, moronic, libtard, dyke, man hater, or any other such insults and expect me to address your debate points respectfully.

[Kathianne]

I may be wrong in my facts, I may be wrong in my premise and assumptions. I am NOT wrong about how I feel. I can speak that truth from the authority of my own experience.

Pulling back before things get too heated is a very good suggestion. Yes, there doesn't have to be a winner and loser.

I've had the experience here of people not only telling what I feel but telling me what I am. I can accept suggestions that address what I'm doing or not doing, but not what I am.

It doesn't matter what other people do, because I have no control over them. I can do a better job of avoiding telling people what they feel or who they are.

It goes both ways. Don't call me stupid, idiotic, moronic, libtard, dyke, man hater, or any other such insults and expect me to address your debate points respectfully.

You feel the way you feel. No one can top that. However, what you feel may not be the best end product of what is right or even what YOU want.

[Wind Song]

You feel the way you feel. No one can top that. However, what you feel may not be the best end product of what is right or even what YOU want.

Hmm, the best end product of what is "right" or even what I want. I will think about that now and in the future.

I was a social worker during "welfare reform". I was skeptical of the "welfare to work" program, and it way exceeded my expectations.

I've been opposed to "no child left behind" because it places too much importance on a single test measure. I think it put pressure on schools to do some things in order to keep funding that may not be in anyone's best interests.

I'm conservative in that regard. It sometimes takes me a long time to warm up to a new idea.

[DragonStryk72]

I may be wrong in my facts, I may be wrong in my premise and assumptions. I am NOT wrong about how I feel. I can speak that truth from the authority of my own experience.

Pulling back before things get too heated is a very good suggestion. Yes, there doesn't have to be a winner and loser.

I've had the experience here of people not only telling what I feel but telling me what I am. I can accept suggestions that address what I'm doing or not doing, but not what I am.

It doesn't matter what other people do, because I have no control over them. I can do a better job of avoiding telling people what they feel or who they are.

It goes both ways. Don't call me stupid, idiotic, moronic, libtard, dyke, man hater, or any other such insults and expect me to address your debate points respectfully.

The problem is, however, that many times, you have been the instigator of the name calling, then become irate about names being thrown back. You have to show respect to earn it in return.

You may feel a certain way, but should you refuse to grow because you feel? Sometimes what we feel is not based on objective reality, that's why it is called a "feeling". For an example: I can say that I love spinach and artichoke dip, I think it's tasty, and there's no real argument to be had, because that is a clearly subjective matter, but were I to try and represent that opinion as an objective fact, everyone is going to take the piss out of me on it, and they should. There is no excuse for trying to pass off subjective opinion as objective fact in a debate.

[logroller]

Thank you for showing me this. I'm going to have read it repeatedly. I think I make similar mistakes in debate. I'm rather slow on debate. I'm not stupid person, but I'm not skilled at this at all.

This sentence particularly interests me:

Eventually she changed her topic, she just couldn't argue against Islamic countries, nor could she bring herself to argue that no one was forced.

So, actually she was in a bind. She couldn't argue against Islamic countries, more than likely out of family loyalty, and as an American, she could not bring herself to admit that the dress is forced to a large extent.

At least, that's my best guess. This is pretty interesting.
Debate is as much art as science. Persuasion is an artform which utilizes a bunch of techniques. Ethos, pathos and logos are perhaps the most common classifications for persuasive speech. Repetition, for example, employs the pathos of the audience-- gets them vested into argument because it's consistent. Ethos engages the audience's sense of right and wrong. An example of ethical persuasion would be the use of words which carry strong emotions. Eg mlk saying '...judged by the content of their character, which if you recall, was used with contrast; similarly, JFK with ask not...

The last, logos, is thw logical side of argument. This is something which I think you should focus upon. Try arguing the counterpoints to your own position. Sometimes you may even concede on one point, but don't let that distract from your overall argument. The goal is to convince the audience of your overall position, and by demonstrating flexibility, you gain the audience's confidence in you and thus, your position.

[Wind Song]

Debate is as much art as science. Persuasion is an artform which utilizes a bunch of techniques. Ethos, pathos and logos are perhaps the most common classifications for persuasive speech. Repetition, for example, employs the pathos of the audience-- gets them vested into argument because it's consistent. Ethos engages the audience's sense of right and wrong. An example of ethical persuasion would be the use of words which carry strong emotions. Eg mlk saying '...judged by the content of their character, which if you recall, was used with contrast; similarly, JFK with ask not...

The last, logos, is thw logical side of argument. This is something which I think you should focus upon. Try arguing the counterpoints to your own position. Sometimes you may even concede on one point, but don't let that distract from your overall argument. The goal is to convince the audience of your overall position, and by demonstrating flexibility, you gain the audience's confidence in you and thus, your position.


Great post. Completely non-judgemental, unlike the DS post which has a "scolding", put down tone, IMO. It's much easier for me to incorporate feedback when it's presented in a positive light. That's my committment of what I plan to attend to.

[logroller]

The problem is, however, that many times, you have been the instigator of the name calling, then become irate about names being thrown back. You have to show respect to earn it in return.

You may feel a certain way, but should you refuse to grow because you feel? Sometimes what we feel is not based on objective reality, that's why it is called a "feeling". For an example: I can say that I love spinach and artichoke dip, I think it's tasty, and there's no real argument to be had, because that is a clearly subjective matter, but were I to try and represent that opinion as an objective fact, everyone is going to take the piss out of me on it, and they should. There is no excuse for trying to pass off subjective opinion as objective fact in a debate.
I like the taste of spinach and artichoke dip, but I don't like the texture. indeed it is a subjective feeling, but it nonetheless possesses objective traits which can be critically analyzed. To discuss the counterpoint I might consider the preparation; that maybe I had a dip that wasn't adequately chopped for not only my liking, but perhapsothers too. This would be an appeal to the audience's feelings which may be similar, which gains me their confidence; also, since i explained why I didn't like it without insulting those who do like the dip, I haven't alienated that group. Win/win

[ConHog]

I like the taste of spinach and artichoke dip, but I don't like the texture. indeed it is a subjective feeling, but it nonetheless possesses objective traits which can be critically analyzed. To discuss the counterpoint I might consider the preparation; that maybe I had a dip that wasn't adequately chopped for not only my liking, but perhapsothers too. This would be an appeal to the audience's feelings which may be similar, which gains me their confidence; also, since i explained why I didn't like it without insulting those who do like the dip, I haven't alienated that group. Win/win

anyone who doesn't like spinach and artichoke dip is a freak and an idiot :fu:





:D

[Wind Song]

Spoken just like the love:laugh: we expect from our friend CH.

[logroller]

anyone who doesn't like spinach and artichoke dip is a freak and an idiot :fu:





:D
The Dude says: That's just like, uh, your opinion and stuff, man.

[Wind Song]

The Dude says: That's just like, uh, your opinion and stuff, man.

Oh no it isn't. Don't you know every utterance of opinion=fact! Besides, the only one ALLOWED to have an opinion is ME!

[logroller]

That was an attempt to find common ground, as anyone who knows that quote from the big lebowski probably liked it; and thus I have restored the pathos.

[Wind Song]

That was an attempt to find common ground, as anyone who knows that quote from the big lebowski probably liked it; and thus I have restored the pathos.

Common ground established by all who have seen the movie, The Big Lebowski.

[logroller]

Common ground established by all who have seen the movie, The Big Lebowski.
Indeed; but the quote itself was logical in its presentation.

(unlike your response, I might add)

[Wind Song]

As I've told you before. Accept that just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they hate you. If we're arguing gay marriage , for example, accept that someone can be anti gay marriage but not hate YOU personally.

I know the difference. I also know when I'm on the receiving end of a hateful post.

[Wind Song]

Indeed; but the quote itself was logical in its presentation.


OK

[logroller]

OK
Seriously though; read that quote. It was logically, ethical and, if you have seen the big lebowski, it engaged the pathos through shared experience. That's persuasion.

[Wind Song]

Seriously though; read that quote. It was logically, ethical and, if you have seen the big lebowski, it engaged the pathos through shared experience. That's persuasion.


I said that all of us who have seen the movie, the Big Lebowski share common ground. We share common experience. I don't know what you mean by "engaged the pathos".

[logroller]

I said that all of us who have seen the movie, the Big Lebowski share common ground. We share common experience.
But do you see how the other appeals work in unison; that even if one fails the others build strength in the argument regardless.

[Wind Song]

But do you see how the other appeals work in unison; that even if one fails the others build strength in the argument regardless.


No, I don't.

[logroller]

I said that all of us who have seen the movie, the Big Lebowski share common ground. We share common experience. I don't know what you mean by "engaged the pathos".
Pathos: a plea to emotion

[Wind Song]

I suspect I'm clueless again. Other than to understand that you are very proud of that one sentence you wrote because it's "logical". It didn't strike me as logical, per se.
I'm the first one to tell you that logic isn't my strong suit.
I hated classical Philosophy when I took it as an Intro class a million years ago.

Maybe on this forum, the big lebowski logic works. dmp calls everyone a dude, or at least he calls me a dude, regardless of gender.

[jimnyc]

The Big Lebowski, one of the best stoner movies ever, and most stoners never even saw it. It's too "deep" for most stoners! LOL I can't recommend this movie 'highly' enough, and I do recommend being stoned when watching! :beer:

[logroller]

No, I don't.

My response to ch wasnt threatening, it was accepting of his opinion (an ethical plea, that we can disagree and it's ok) and stated that he might be right for him, but that doesn't make it fact( a logical conclusion). All while playing off of what I'm guessing is a quote that he is familiar with, and probably found funny, thus I have appealed to his emotions; but even if he hadn't a clue who the Dude is-- the ethos and logos make my point.

[Wind Song]

I enjoyed the movie once. I certainly wouldn't put it in my cult classics for all eternity or watch it to become a better debater on this forum.

[ConHog]

The Big Lebowski, one of the best stoner movies ever, and most stoners never even saw it. It's too "deep" for most stoners! LOL I can't recommend this movie 'highly' enough, and I do recommend being stoned when watching! :beer:

best stoner movie is a tie between dazed and confused and jay and silent bob strike back. lol

[Wind Song]

My response to ch wasnt threatening, it was accepting of his opinion (an ethical plea, that we can disagree and it's ok) and stated that he might be right for him, but that doesn't make it fact( a logical conclusion). All while playing off of what I'm guessing is a quote that he is familiar with, and probably found funny, thus I have appealed to his emotions; but even if he hadn't a clue who the Dude is-- the ethos and logos make my point.


Yes, I see it works well, and it was well received by CH.

[logroller]

I suspect I'm clueless again. Other than to understand that you are very proud of that one sentence you wrote because it's "logical". It didn't strike me as logical, per se.
I'm the first one to tell you that logic isn't my strong suit.
I hated classical Philosophy when I took it as an Intro class a million years ago.

Maybe on this forum, the big lebowski logic works. dmp calls everyone a dude, or at least he calls me a dude, regardless of gender.
Stating that Not liking spinach and artichoke dip makes one an idiot is a premise that lacks logical support; my retort admonished him of this-- pointing out the err of his logic.

[ConHog]

Stating that Not liking spinach and artichoke dip makes one an idiot is a premise that lacks logical support; my retort admonished him of this-- pointing out the err of his logic.

I HOPE you realize my post was in jest, for sure at least one other didn't . I hate when I have to actually post SARCASM on my sarcastic posts.

[jimnyc]

best stoner movie is a tie between dazed and confused and jay and silent bob strike back. lol

The Pineapple Express & a classic in Fast Times at Ridgemont High!

[Wind Song]

Stating that Not liking spinach and artichoke dip makes one an idiot is a premise that lacks logical support; my retort admonished him of this-- pointing out the err of his logic.

Yes, it's a good illustration of how to take an insult and logically reduce it to nothing. I think that would take me quite awhile to learn. I've got a bad habit of how I respond to insults.

I'm kind of shell shocked to tell you the truth. Now all I have to do is see is that this or that poster is logged on and I'm scared. It makes me want to run to the safety of the poetry and music threads.

[ConHog]

The Pineapple Express & a classic in Fast Times at Ridgemont High!

I did not care for Pineapple.

[Wind Song]

My favorite stoner movie is the Madonna one, "Who's that girl?"

[jimnyc]

I did not care for Pineapple.

You have to like Seth Rogen - did you see and like Knocked Up?

[ConHog]

You have to like Seth Rogen - did you see and like Knocked Up?

I HATE seth rogen, everything about him annoys me.

[Wind Song]

I thought the 3 Stooges was hilarious.

[jimnyc]

My favorite stoner movie is the Madonna one, "Who's that girl?"

Never saw that one. I liked Madonna in Desperately Seeking Susan, then for whatever reason, she turned me off, and I never paid for a CD of hers again nor watched a movie.

[Wind Song]

Never saw that one. I liked Madonna in Desperately Seeking Susan, then for whatever reason, she turned me off, and I never paid for a CD of hers again nor watched a movie.

Madonna, and Bette Midler, and a few others are popular with gays.

Who's that Girl? is funny and then it gets scary, which you're not expecting.

[jimnyc]

I HATE seth rogen, everything about him annoys me.

Too bad on you! He's hilarious! What about Superbad? While not the primary star, he was still awesome as one of the coppers in that one! You have no taste, you probably enjoyed Brokeback Mountain! :lol:

[Wind Song]

I loved Brokeback Mountain. It's actually more of a chick flick, since it's so relational.

[ConHog]

Too bad on you! He's hilarious! What about Superbad? While not the primary star, he was still awesome as one of the coppers in that one! You have no taste, you probably enjoyed Brokeback Mountain! :lol:

I do think Brokeback was a wonderful story of your life.....................


Actually, I never saw it.

Just something about S Rogen makes me wanna punch him in the face.

[jimnyc]

I thought the 3 Stooges was hilarious.

Haven't seen it.


Madonna, and Bette Midler, and a few others are popular with gays.

Their acting and singing shouldn't reflect who they are or their beliefs.

[Wind Song]

Haven't seen it.



Their acting and singing shouldn't reflect who they are or their beliefs.


I'm not sure what you mean so I tread carefully. (you scare me)

Both of them performed at gay clubs before they got big.

[ConHog]

Haven't seen it.



Their acting and singing shouldn't reflect who they are or their beliefs.

After Wind Beneath My Wings, I'll always love Bette.

[Wind Song]

She was great depicting Janis Joplin in the Rose.

[jimnyc]

I'm not sure what you mean so I tread carefully. (you scare me)

Both of them performed at gay clubs before they got big.

I just mean that if someone is acting, who they are and what they believe in real life shouldn't matter. For example, Elton John, about as gay as they come - but is one hell of a piano player and a great singer. I would love to see a show of his, but I wouldn't want to hear him discuss his personal or political beliefs, just be entertained by his music. Same for actors, when the camera is rolling, their personal lives no longer matter. I don't think the 2 should be mixed.

[jimnyc]

She was great depicting Janis Joplin in the Rose.

I don't like her very much, but THAT was an awesome flick and a great job of acting!!! She also did a one show episode of Seinfeld, as herself, and she was funny as hell!

[Wind Song]

I just mean that if someone is acting, who they are and what they believe in real life shouldn't matter. For example, Elton John, about as gay as they come - but is one hell of a piano player and a great singer. I would love to see a show of his, but I wouldn't want to hear him discuss his personal or political beliefs, just be entertained by his music. Same for actors, when the camera is rolling, their personal lives no longer matter. I don't think the 2 should be mixed.

Well, actors and performers are citizens and they have just as much right to follow their own political conscience as anyone else. This is why you scare me. It's scary to disagree with you.

[ConHog]

I don't like her very much, but THAT was an awesome flick and a great job of acting!!! She also did a one show episode of Seinfeld, as herself, and she was funny as hell!

She was funny in that. Total prima donna funny.

[jimnyc]

Well, actors and performers are citizens and they have just as much right to follow their own political conscience as anyone else. This is why you scare me. It's scary to disagree with you.

huh? Why is it scary to disagree? You're welcome to approve of what they do. They also have the right, as you said, to their political and personal beliefs, and can even espouse them on the big screen or on stage if they like. "I" go to concerts and such for the music, not to hear political banter. I go to the movies to be entertained by actors and the writing, hopefully not for an actor to bust out of line and speak their political beliefs.

I prefer to go to a concert and hear only music. You wouldn't care if the entertainer spends some of their time preaching their beliefs. We disagree on that. Big deal. We won't be the first and we wont be the last. Unsure what is so scary about that.

[logroller]

Madonna, and Bette Midler, and a few others are popular with gays.

Who's that Girl? is funny and then it gets scary, which you're not expecting.

I like Bette.... Does that make me gay?

[ConHog]

I like Bette.... Does that make me gay?

No..............
















................ you're gay for other reasons. :lol:

[Wind Song]

huh? Why is it scary to disagree? You're welcome to approve of what they do. They also have the right, as you said, to their political and personal beliefs, and can even espouse them on the big screen or on stage if they like. "I" go to concerts and such for the music, not to hear political banter. I go to the movies to be entertained by actors and the writing, hopefully not for an actor to bust out of line and speak their political beliefs.

I prefer to go to a concert and hear only music. You wouldn't care if the entertainer spends some of their time preaching their beliefs. We disagree on that. Big deal. We won't be the first and we wont be the last. Unsure what is so scary about that.


You've made a false assumption. I didn't say that I want entertainers talking about their political beliefs. I am telling you Bette Midler is beloved by the gay community because she first performed in gay baths and gay clubs.

I can't really talk to you right now about why it scares me to cross paths with you.

[Wind Song]

I know you use "gay" as an insult, but it isn't. You should be so lucky to be a loving gay man.

[jimnyc]

You've made a false assumption. I didn't say that I want entertainers talking about their political beliefs. I am telling you Bette Midler is beloved by the gay community because she first performed in gay baths and gay clubs.

I can't really talk to you right now about why it scares me to cross paths with you.

Then don't reply to me when I post, you fucking loon. This is the point - AGAIN - where a thread has NOTHING to do with the gay community, and yet you bring it in, and then make yourself a victim. Un fucking believable. Seriously, if you're that fucked in the head that my mere presence and/or posts SCARE you, you need to either ignore me, log off, or find a place to post where members don't "scare" you.

[jimnyc]

I know you use "gay" as an insult, but it isn't. You should be so lucky to be a loving gay man.

Yeah, sure, that's fucking gay!

[jimnyc]

................ you're gay for other reasons. :lol:

You're gay for obvious reasons, but I can't discuss that, as some "not to be named loon" might get insulted. So I wont call you a flaming queer, queer.

[logroller]

I know you use "gay" as an insult, but it isn't. You should be so lucky to be a loving gay man.
I am lucky to be a loving and beloved person; my gender and sexual preference shouldn't matter in that respect, should it?
Perhaps it's you that's making false assumptions.

[Wind Song]

Then don't reply to me when I post, you fucking loon. This is the point - AGAIN - where a thread has NOTHING to do with the gay community, and yet you bring it in, and then make yourself a victim. Un fucking believable. Seriously, if you're that fucked in the head that my mere presence and/or posts SCARE you, you need to either ignore me, log off, or find a place to post where members don't "scare" you.

I'll log off. Go name call and abuse someone else.

[jimnyc]

I'll log off. Go name call and abuse someone else.

We'll just remove your participation from threads you can't participate in without having a nervous breakdown. :lol:

[tailfins]

Then don't reply to me when I post, you fucking loon. This is the point - AGAIN - where a thread has NOTHING to do with the gay community, and yet you bring it in, and then make yourself a victim. Un fucking believable. Seriously, if you're that fucked in the head that my mere presence and/or posts SCARE you, you need to either ignore me, log off, or find a place to post where members don't "scare" you.

Somebody woke the Pitbull. By the way Jim: I GUARANTEE you'll like the video.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9O72RLP5fF4

[jimnyc]

Somebody woke the Pitbull. By the way Jim: I GUARANTEE you'll like the video.



Horrible song, great women though!! :laugh:

[tailfins]

Horrible song, great women though!! :laugh:

Some people want to slap Pitbull for butchering the song. Here's the original:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utHtDqwf5cQ&feature=youtu.be

Renato Carosone is ridiculing people who are "fake Americans" instead of living their own culture.

[Abbey Marie]

I know you use "gay" as an insult, but it isn't. You should be so lucky to be a loving gay man.

I prefer Jim alive and healthy.

[jimnyc]

Madonna, and Bette Midler, and a few others are popular with gays.

Who's that Girl? is funny and then it gets scary, which you're not expecting.

Where it started - when I noticed her reasoning had something to do with the gay community. So I said:


Their acting and singing shouldn't reflect who they are or their beliefs.


I'm not sure what you mean so I tread carefully. (you scare me)

Both of them performed at gay clubs before they got big.

I've scared her already, WTF for is beyond me, but we got to that level in ONE post.


I just mean that if someone is acting, who they are and what they believe in real life shouldn't matter. For example, Elton John, about as gay as they come - but is one hell of a piano player and a great singer. I would love to see a show of his, but I wouldn't want to hear him discuss his personal or political beliefs, just be entertained by his music. Same for actors, when the camera is rolling, their personal lives no longer matter. I don't think the 2 should be mixed.

Even with her exaggeration, I continued politely, and explained why and how I thought personal politics should remain out of an entertainers "act".


Well, actors and performers are citizens and they have just as much right to follow their own political conscience as anyone else. This is why you scare me. It's scary to disagree with you.

She can't discuss maturely, and now is making them/her to be the victim of my words already. Oh, and it was scarier this time. She disagreed with me, I gave a polite and mature response - but it's scary to disagree!


huh? Why is it scary to disagree? You're welcome to approve of what they do. They also have the right, as you said, to their political and personal beliefs, and can even espouse them on the big screen or on stage if they like. "I" go to concerts and such for the music, not to hear political banter. I go to the movies to be entertained by actors and the writing, hopefully not for an actor to bust out of line and speak their political beliefs.

I prefer to go to a concert and hear only music. You wouldn't care if the entertainer spends some of their time preaching their beliefs. We disagree on that. Big deal. We won't be the first and we wont be the last. Unsure what is so scary about that.

I try again, to show its utterly ridiculous to play scared over what we want to hear/see from people who entertain us. I explained from a different angle, then showed the part I did agree with to show there was nothing to be afraid of from my posts.


You've made a false assumption. I didn't say that I want entertainers talking about their political beliefs. I am telling you Bette Midler is beloved by the gay community because she first performed in gay baths and gay clubs.

I can't really talk to you right now about why it scares me to cross paths with you.

Again with the scary stuff, and of course replying to things and making it obvious she comprehended absolutely nothing from any of my posts. But I'm wrong, and a bully and make her scared. Wow. That's all I can say. Wow. You need sedation, likely on a strict schedule.

[Wind Song]

I prefer Jim alive and healthy.

I prefer that the term "gay" not be used as an insult. Sorry you mised that point.

[Abbey Marie]

I prefer that the term "gay" not be used as an insult. Sorry you mised that point.

What makes you think anyone cares what you prefer?

Sincerely,
All Christians

[Wind Song]

What makes you think anyone cares what you prefer?

Sincerely,
All Christians


Is it "Christian" to wish ill health and death on gay people??

[Abbey Marie]

It is Christian to wish ill health and death on gay people??

Not wasting my time with your lies.

[Wind Song]

Not wasting my time with your lies.


Consider this: Jim uses the term "gay" as an insult. I counter with he sould be so lucky, (meaning being gay is not an insult. You counter with "I want Jim to be alive and healthy" implying that to be gay is to be unhealthty or dead, which reveals your true animosity toward gays.
It means you either think that to be gay means to be automatically unhealthy or dead, which isn't true or otherwise expresses your wishe. Neither is real great.

[jimnyc]

Consider this: Jim uses the term "gay" as an insult. I counter with he sould be so lucky, (meaning being gay is not an insult. You counter with "I want Jim to be alive and healthy" implying that to be gay is to be unhealthty or dead, which reveals your true animosity toward gays.

Consider this: Jim didn't use it as an insult in this thread. It was between Conhog and Logroller when you replied. You don't even know who you're talking about at times and several times I have seen you post shit in the wrong threads. Nutso

[Abbey Marie]

Consider this: Jim uses the term "gay" as an insult. I counter with he sould be so lucky, (meaning being gay is not an insult. You counter with "I want Jim to be alive and healthy" implying that to be gay is to be unhealthty or dead, which reveals your true animosity toward gays.

Oh, I thought you had experience with the connection between gays and HIV/AIDS. I am sure you could read up on it if you are unaware of devastation this has caused in the gay community.

[jimnyc]

Oh, I thought you had experience with the connection between gays and HIV/AIDS. I am sure you could read up on it if you are unaware of devastation this has caused in the gay community.

Everyone KNOWS about the bad stuff, you're just not allowed to point them out. Facts are like so 80's and unnecessary nowadays!

[Abbey Marie]

Everyone KNOWS about the bad stuff, you're just not allowed to point them out. Facts are like so 80's and unnecessary nowadays!

Most humble apologies, sir! :laugh:

[Shadow]

Oh look...the 'I want to learn how to debate' thread went straight into the crapper. Shocking. :laugh:

[Wind Song]

Oh, I thought you had experience with the connection between gays and HIV/AIDS. I am sure you could read up on it if you are unaware of devastation this has caused in the gay community.


Most gay people are alive and healthy, no thanks to your ill wishes.

[tailfins]

Most gay people are alive and healthy, no thanks to your ill wishes.

That's between them and God. However, I wouldn't want to shake my fist at God that way.

[Wind Song]

That's between them and God. However, I wouldn't want to shake my fist at God that way.

I don't understand what you're talking about with "shaking your fist at God." Are you saying that because I don't accept ill health and death wishes from Christians, and point out that being gay is not an automatic guarantee of getting AIDS and dying is "shaking my fist at God"?

It sometimes feels to me like some Christians think God has condemned gays to dying from AIDS.(Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell's view).

If that were true then being lesbian must be in great favor with God. We don't get AIDS from being lesbian.


Some are so ignore the ones who aren't unless you like them/get along with them. Whether the debates go anywhere or not is unknown but we can reasonably disagree.


I will.


Your support and suggestions are gratefully received.

:dance:

[ConHog]

I don't understand what you're talking about with "shaking your fist at God." Are you saying that because I don't accept ill health and death wishes from Christians, and point out that being gay is not an automatic guarantee of getting AIDS and dying is "shaking my fist at God"?

It sometimes feels to me like some Christians think God has condemned gays to dying from AIDS.(Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell's view).

If that were true then being lesbian must be in great favor with God. We don't get AIDS from being lesbian.

Oh, one more thing, and the REAL reason why you will NEVER be a worth a damn at debating.. You misinterpret EVERY post.

I mean your very own post said you didn't understand what tailfins was saying, so why then would you assume the worst?

Get this through your thick stupid head. Christians believe being gay in a sin before God, they don't believe God punishes gays with AIDS; in fact the opposite we KNOW that God's punishments and rewards have nothing to do with this world.

Once again you need to learn when to just shut up. Like my old grandad used to say " son better to keep your mouth shut and let people think you a fool, then open it and remove all doubt. "

[Wind Song]

Oh, one more thing, and the REAL reason why you will NEVER be a worth a damn at debating.. You misinterpret EVERY post.

I mean your very own post said you didn't understand what tailfins was saying, so why then would you assume the worst?

Get this through your thick stupid head. Christians believe being gay in a sin before God, they don't believe God punishes gays with AIDS; in fact the opposite we KNOW that God's punishments and rewards have nothing to do with this world.

Once again you need to learn when to just shut up. Like my old grandad used to say " son better to keep your mouth shut and let people think you a fool, then open it and remove all doubt. "

I do not misinterpret EVERY post. I admitted I had no idea what he was trying to say and I asked for clarification. I said what I feared he meant. I am sick to death of you hurling abusive words at me calling me "thick and stupid". I am NOT sick and stupid.

You have NO RIGHT to COMMAND me to shut up.

I'm not going to answer any more of your rude posts.

[ConHog]

I do not misinterpret EVERY post. I admitted I had no idea what he was trying to say and I asked for clarification. I said what I feared he meant. I am sick to death of you hurling abusive words at me calling me "thick and stupid". I am NOT sick and stupid.

You have NO RIGHT to COMMAND me to shut up.

I'm not going to answer any more of your rude posts.

LOL @ she does it again. Obviously I didn't command her to shut up.

[Wind Song]

You ordered me to shut up. Or, if you prefer, you TOLD ME TO SHUT UP.

What's the damn difference? You have NO RIGHT to silence me.

[ConHog]

You ordered me to shut up.



Incorrect, I merely suggested that you yourself needed to learn when to voluntarily shut up.

[Wind Song]

Incorrect, I merely suggested that you yourself needed to learn when to voluntarily shut up.

You did a lot more than that.

Your essential message was sound advice. The way you did it was offensive. If you expect to influence me to become a better debate poster then you should follow your own rules.

[ConHog]

You did a lot more than that.

Your essential message was sound advice. The way you did it was offensive. If you expect to influence me to become a better debate poster then you should follow your own rules.

Dorothy, I've given you advice nicely and rudely and it's made no difference either way because you don't truly care to post any differently, or you just aren't capable of doing so.

[Wind Song]

Dorothy, I've given you advice nicely and rudely and it's made no difference either way because you don't truly care to post any differently, or you just aren't capable of doing so.

If you'd read the rest of this thread before you showed up on the scene you would see I'm sincere and serious about learning to post differently.

I am capable of learning. Today, I've really seen some excellent teaching examples and stories from fj, kath, LR, and more. kath shared an example that was very insightful about her iranian student's essay/debate challenges. LR showed how to masterfully use pathos from the big lebowski to logically undercut an insulting post.

dmp suggested I read about logical fallacies. fj suggested I pull back and not answer insults. I've been open to learning and I've been clear about how I learn.

I don't learn when someone is verbally beating me up. (that's how it feels). I don't learn well when I'm threatened. Humiliation and shame don't work for me.

Over and over, you tell me when you get frustrated with me that I'm not worth your time. I am sick and tired of you telling me I'm worthless, stupid, moronic etc.

You take your anger, and you don't own it, you overlay judgment over it and that doesn't work for me.

You get frustrated? So do I. We share that in common.

[ConHog]

If you'd read the rest of this thread before you showed up on the scene you would see I'm sincere and serious about learning to post differently.

I am capable of learning. Today, I've really seen some excellent teaching examples and stories from fj, kath, LR, and more. kath shared an example that was very insightful about her iranian student's essay/debate challenges. LR showed how to masterfully use pathos from the big lebowski to logically undercut an insulting post.

dmp suggested I read about logical fallacies. fj suggested I pull back and not answer insults. I've been open to learning and I've been clear about how I learn.

I don't learn when someone is verbally beating me up. (that's how it feels). I don't learn well when I'm threatened. Humiliation and shame don't work for me.

Over and over, you tell me when you get frustrated with me that I'm not worth your time.

You take your anger, and you don't own it, you overlay judgment over it and that doesn't work for me.

Plain and simple, I don't care enough about you to get angry Sky. You've completely worn out your welcome with me. I've ready too many of these "teach me how to get along better" threads from you.

You're a narcissist who has to turn every thread into a discussion about YOU and YOUR issues.

[Wind Song]

Plain and simple, I don't care enough about you to get angry Sky. You've completely worn out your welcome with me. I've ready too many of these "teach me how to get along better" threads from you.

You're a narcissist who has to turn every thread into a discussion about YOU and YOUR issues.

OK. We're done. I won't answer any of your posts. Goodbye.

[Wind Song]

I will learn to debate better. I will turn toward the people with good will on this thread and learn from them. kath, dmp, fj12oo, DS, logroller, tailfins. SL had a good suggestion the other night.

Thank you all.

I want to thank CH, Abbey, and Jim for your previous kindnesses toward me.

[ConHog]

OK. We're done. I won't answer any of your posts. Goodbye.

translation: I don't like what you're saying about me so I will label it as you being mean and move on.

When you've pissed off every poster on multiple boards Sky it's clear who the problem is.

[Wind Song]

CH

You've stated I'm incapable of learning and not worth your time. You said I don't matter to you.

That's fine. Be at peace.

I'd rather make friends with people. I think I made a good start with quite a few today. I failed a few too. You win some, you lose some.

WS

[tailfins]

CH

You've stated I'm incapable of learning and not worth your time. You said I don't matter to you.

That's fine. Be at peace.

I'd rather make friends with people. I think I made a good start with quite a few today. I failed a few too. You win some, you lose some.

WS


I'm just here for entertainment. And Dorothy, on that score you've done a fine job entertaining me.

[Shadow]

If you'd read the rest of this thread before you showed up on the scene you would see I'm sincere and serious about learning to post differently.

I am capable of learning. Today, I've really seen some excellent teaching examples and stories from fj, kath, LR, and more. kath shared an example that was very insightful about her iranian student's essay/debate challenges. LR showed how to masterfully use pathos from the big lebowski to logically undercut an insulting post.

dmp suggested I read about logical fallacies. fj suggested I pull back and not answer insults. I've been open to learning and I've been clear about how I learn.

I don't learn when someone is verbally beating me up. (that's how it feels). I don't learn well when I'm threatened. Humiliation and shame don't work for me.

Over and over, you tell me when you get frustrated with me that I'm not worth your time. I am sick and tired of you telling me I'm worthless, stupid, moronic etc.

You take your anger, and you don't own it, you overlay judgment over it and that doesn't work for me.

You get frustrated? So do I. We share that in common.

This post cracks me up. You are such a hypocrite that it is actually comical to read your total BS everyday. Once again Wing Song takes it upon herself to define the worthwhile posters on the board for the rest of us poor slobs...and demand that everyone else must cater to her whiny needs. Then later she will do all of the things she is having fits over regarding other posters (and even making up her own forms of harrassment behind the scenes).

Name call...disrupt conversations...act like a passive aggressive butthurt baby and follow you around the board bugging you after telling you she is done with you. Threaten to leave...beg to be banned. Pretty much everything but actually DISCUSS/DEBATE topics. :laugh:


You are a hoot. You can not be for real...no one acts like this much of a tool on a daily basis. :laugh:

[darin]

This post cracks me up. You are such a hypocrite that it is actually comical to read your total BS everyday. Once again Wing Song takes it upon herself to define the worthwhile posters on the board for the rest of us poor slobs...and demand that everyone else must cater to her whiny needs. Then later she will do all of the things she is having fits over regarding other posters (and even making up her own forms of harrassment behind the scenes).

Name call...disrupt conversations...act like a passive aggressive butthurt baby and follow you around the board bugging you after telling you she is done with you. Threaten to leave...beg to be banned. Pretty much everything but actually DISCUSS/DEBATE topics. :laugh:


You are a hoot. You can not be for real...no one acts like this much of a tool on a daily basis. :laugh:


http://www.d-mphotos.com/images/applause.gif

[Noir]

read, read a lot, and read more.

[Wind Song]

read, read a lot, and read more.

I'm planning to read about debate and read the posts of members here who debate well.

[Wind Song]

Everyone KNOWS about the bad stuff, you're just not allowed to point them out. Facts are like so 80's and unnecessary nowadays!

Facts are that there are more healthy gays and lesbians than those who are infected with AIDS.

[Wind Song]

Oh, I thought you had experience with the connection between gays and HIV/AIDS. I am sure you could read up on it if you are unaware of devastation this has caused in the gay community.


I know a great deal about the AIDS epidemic, including the fact, that most gays with HIV live healthy lives. HIV is now a chronic, but not deadly disease in the US. Being gay does not equal having AIDS or early death.


In the past HIV/AIDS was considered to be a deadly disease. Medical research has helped doctors understand HIV and improve available treatments. HIV/AIDS can now be treated with medicines.

Read more: http://www.youngwomenshealth.org/hiv-aids.html#ixzz1wMi0C2Dj

"Scientists reveal the first tests in humans showed 9 out of 10 volunteers developed an immune response against the virus, about 85 percent able to retain immunity for at least 1 year.
The success of the vaccine, known as MVA-B is based on the human immune system's ability to learn how to react from time to time against virus particles and cells already infected."
http://www.bukisa.com/articles/565971_hiv-no-longer-so-deadly-diseases-with-the-new-vaccine


Read up on that.

The point is, it's offensive to gays to have straights call each other "gay" as an insult. If I called you "het Christian" as an insult, you'd be offended too. "Heterosexual" is who you are in your intimate, sexual expression, "Christian" is who you love.

[Wind Song]

Ive scared her already, WTF for is beyond me, but we got to that level in ONE post.
Even with her exaggeration, I continued politely, and explained why and how I thought personal politics should remain out of an entertainers "act".
You scare me for two reasons. One, that you're so angry when you post a response to me, and you threaten me, you threaten to thread ban me if I don't post exactly the way you think I should.
Second, you scare me because I care for you, and I can't bear it when you're so angry and hostile toward me.



She can't discuss maturely, and now is making them/her to be the victim of my words already. Oh, and it was scarier this time. She disagreed with me, I gave a polite and mature response - but it's scary to disagree!

All I had to do was see your name posting on the thread and I was scared. With good reason, you've been angry with me all day.


I try again, to show its utterly ridiculous to play scared over what we want to hear/see from people who entertain us. I explained from a different angle, then showed the part I did agree with to show there was nothing to be afraid of from my posts.

I'm not afraid of your posts, I'm afraid of your anger and of the way you remove me from threads I've created. This one is important to me. I really want to learn to develop debate skills and I like the people here and want to be part of this community. You're continuously on my case. I feel like I can't breathe.




Again with the scary stuff, and of course replying to things and making it obvious she comprehended absolutely nothing from any of my posts. But I'm wrong, and a bully and make her scared. Wow. That's all I can say. Wow. You need sedation, likely on a strict schedule.


I have PTSD, which is an anxiety disorder. You trigger my symptoms. I still accept responsibility for my reaction. I wish you'd just ignore my posts and I will do the same,. Perhaps things can calm down.

[logroller]

I don't find someone calling me gay insulting. Even if it's clearly a derogatory term, like fag, bitch or some such; because maybe I was being a bitch. Now there is a certain machismo that is evident when guys call each other fags, but its not fueled by hate Quite the opposite IMHO, its friendly jeering; they're saying, Whatever you are, I like you anyways. But us het guys don't lie saying that, it sounds gay.:cool:

[Wind Song]

Where it started - when I noticed her reasoning had something to do with the gay community. So I said:





I've scared her already, WTF for is beyond me, but we got to that level in ONE post.



Even with her exaggeration, I continued politely, and explained why and how I thought personal politics should remain out of an entertainers "act".



She can't discuss maturely, and now is making them/her to be the victim of my words already. Oh, and it was scarier this time. She disagreed with me, I gave a polite and mature response - but it's scary to disagree!



I try again, to show its utterly ridiculous to play scared over what we want to hear/see from people who entertain us. I explained from a different angle, then showed the part I did agree with to show there was nothing to be afraid of from my posts.



Again with the scary stuff, and of course replying to things and making it obvious she comprehended absolutely nothing from any of my posts. But I'm wrong, and a bully and make her scared. Wow. That's all I can say. Wow. You need sedation, likely on a strict schedule.


I don't find someone calling me gay insulting. Even if it's clearly a derogatory term, like fag, bitch or some such; because maybe I was being a bitch. Now there is a certain machismo that is evident when guys call each other fags, but its not fueled by hate Quite the opposite IMHO, its friendly jeering; their saying, Whatever you are, I like you anyways. But us het guys don't lie saying that, it sounds gay.:cool:


I find it offensive when men who are straight call each other gay, bitch, c unt, fag, etc. It's more than likely true that it is a cultural difference. That these terms are acceptable pecking order behavior in men.

We don't allow that kind of talk on the playground. Why allow it here?

I came across this article and it is news to me:

"Every generation grows up with a whole lexicon of homosexual insults, in my day it was 'poofter' or 'bender'," says slang lexicographer Tony Thorne. "They were used much more because they were considered more offensive than 'gay', which is more neutral.

'Tease'
"It's only in the last four years that I've documented it being used so much by young people. It's what we call a 'vogue' word, which is a fashionable word."
One reason for this increase in use could be because "gay" has partly lost its sexual connotations among young people, he says. While still pejorative, for the majority of youngsters it has replaced words such as "lame".
"I have interviewed scores of school kids about this and they are always emphatic that it has nothing at all to do with hostility to homosexuals," says Mr Thorne, compiler of the Dictionary of Contemporary Slang. "It is nearly always used in contexts where sexual orientation and sexuality are completely irrelevant."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7289390.stm

The term gay is a teasing term. When I used it, I took it as an insult, and I stated that Jim would be lucky to be a loving gay man, meaning being gay is not an insult.

But when it was used by Abbey, to say that she would rather Jim by healthy and alive, she got really mad and signed her post, "All Christians.

"Gay" does not equal illness and death. All the condemnation in the world by "ALL Christians" as Abbey signs herself does not make a single gay man a demon.

[logroller]

I find it offensive when men who are straight call each other gay, bitch, c unt, fag, etc. It's more than likely true that it is a cultural difference. That these terms are acceptable pecking order behavior in men.

We don't allow that kind of talk on the playground. Why allow it here?

It's part of life; there's always someone trying to get up by stepping on those ahead. But I don't really think its quite as cutthroat as a pecking order in most cases. Usually, its just guys unable to show their emotions for fear of rejection. Oddly, it becomes a term of endearment; that when Jim calls me a fag, he's sort of admitting he likes me, just not in that way. ;)

[Wind Song]

Six steps for not using "gay" as a derogatory term.

Recognise that using the word gay as a derogatory term is considered homophobic (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/homophobia). Unless you already have, realise that using the word gay to insult something or someone implies that you think there is something wrong with being homosexual. This makes you look hateful.

Understand the word that you want to avoid using. Gay is just a term to describe a person's sexuality. Gay people have needs, feelings (http://www.debatepolicy.com/Express-Your-Feelings) and goals (http://www.debatepolicy.com/Set-Goals) just like you do. The only difference between a gay person (http://www.debatepolicy.com/Talk-with-a-Gay-or-Lesbian-Person) and a straight person is who they are attracted to. Understand that using the word gay in a derogatory manner is extremely insulting.

Register every time you use gay in a derogatory manner. Every time you use (or try to use) the word gay to refer to someone or something that you don't like or think is stupid, wrong or bad in any way, take a mental note. Examine why you want to use it, and then every time you want to, try to use a different word that is not offensive to gay people (http://www.debatepolicy.com/Understand-Gay-and-Lesbian-People) or any other person (http://www.debatepolicy.com/Be-Tolerant-of-Others). Use words like stupid, wick, annoying or wrong instead.

Come up with alternative phrases or words to use. When using replacements, remember that they apply not only to spoken language, but also to writing and most importantly, thinking. If you constantly challenge yourself to use alternatives, over time you will become more used to them and may even forget that you could have used to use the word gay - inappropriately. used to use the word gay - inappropriately.

http://www.wikihow.com/Build-Your-Vocabulary

[Wind Song]

It's part of life; there's always someone trying to get up by stepping on those ahead. But I don't really think its quite as cutthroat as a pecking order in most cases. Usually, its just guys unable to show their emotions for fear of rejection. Oddly, it becomes a term of endearment; that when Jim calls me a fag, he's sort of admitting he likes me, just not in that way. ;)


Fag is a term of endearment? Do you understand the origin of the term. "Faggot" refer to pieces of wood that gay men had to gather and place on pyres where they were burned at the stake. Faggot equals death. I know some people wish illness and death on gays, but luckily they are in the minority.

I understand you guys use the term differently. I doubt I'll ever be comfortable with it, but I'll see if I can react less seriously when you use it.

Unfortunately, too often people who say they aren't prejudiced end up using derogatory terms toward gays and lesbians they're angry with. That shows their true colors.

[logroller]

I came across this article and it is news to me:

"Every generation grows up with a whole lexicon of homosexual insults, in my day it was 'poofter' or 'bender'," says slang lexicographer Tony Thorne. "They were used much more because they were considered more offensive than 'gay', which is more neutral.

'Tease'
"It's only in the last four years that I've documented it being used so much by young people. It's what we call a 'vogue' word, which is a fashionable word."
One reason for this increase in use could be because "gay" has partly lost its sexual connotations among young people, he says. While still pejorative, for the majority of youngsters it has replaced words such as "lame".
"I have interviewed scores of school kids about this and they are always emphatic that it has nothing at all to do with hostility to homosexuals," says Mr Thorne, compiler of the Dictionary of Contemporary Slang. "It is nearly always used in contexts where sexual orientation and sexuality are completely irrelevant."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7289390.stm

The term gay is a teasing term. When I used it, I took it as an insult, and I stated that Jim would be lucky to be a loving gay man, meaning being gay is not an insult.

But when it was used by Abbey, to say that she would rather Jim by healthy and alive, she got really mad and signed her post, "All Christians.

"Gay" does not equal illness and death. All the condemnation in the world by "ALL Christians" as Abbey signs herself does not make a single gay man a demon.


Abbey's post was sardonic; she doesn't speak for ALL Christians. This is what I was talking to you about with heightened tensions of the pathos; as your statement "Jim would be lucky...", was clearly meant to sting. That's why I responded to that post the way I did-- calm and unassuming-- attempting to diffuse the growing conceit. That it truly shouldn't matter what gender or sexual preference one exhibits so long as they are beloved; but by combining those into one statement, you awoke a flood of emotions in the reader. I think that's a skill for you to possess; but you must use it carefully, or risk alienating the audience.

[darin]

Six steps for not using "gay" as a derogatory term.

Recognise that using the word gay as a derogatory term is considered homophobic (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/homophobia). Unless you already have, realise that using the word gay to insult something or someone implies that you think there is something wrong with being homosexual. This makes you look hateful.

Understand the word that you want to avoid using. Gay is just a term to describe a person's sexuality. Gay people have needs, feelings (http://www.debatepolicy.com/Express-Your-Feelings) and goals (http://www.debatepolicy.com/Set-Goals) just like you do. The only difference between a gay person (http://www.debatepolicy.com/Talk-with-a-Gay-or-Lesbian-Person) and a straight person is who they are attracted to. Understand that using the word gay in a derogatory manner is extremely insulting.

Register every time you use gay in a derogatory manner. Every time you use (or try to use) the word gay to refer to someone or something that you don't like or think is stupid, wrong or bad in any way, take a mental note. Examine why you want to use it, and then every time you want to, try to use a different word that is not offensive to gay people (http://www.debatepolicy.com/Understand-Gay-and-Lesbian-People) or any other person (http://www.debatepolicy.com/Be-Tolerant-of-Others). Use words like stupid, wick, annoying or wrong instead.

Come up with alternative phrases or words to use. When using replacements, remember that they apply not only to spoken language, but also to writing and most importantly, thinking. If you constantly challenge yourself to use alternatives, over time you will become more used to them and may even forget that you could have used to use the word gay - inappropriately. used to use the word gay - inappropriately.

http://www.wikihow.com/Build-Your-Vocabulary

LMFAO!! F'ing GAY!! haha...pathetic AND untrue.

The only difference between a gay person and a normal person is what they DO. Their actions define them.

Geesh. Give it a rest.

[Wind Song]

Abbey's post was sardonic; she doesn't speak for ALL Christians. This is what I was talking to you about with heightened tensions of the pathos; as your statement "Jim would be lucky...", was clearly meant to sting. That's why I responded to that post the way I did-- calm and unassuming-- attempting to diffuse the growing conceit. That it truly shouldn't matter what gender or sexual preference one exhibits so long as they are beloved; but by combining those into one statement, you awoke a flood of emotions in the reader. I think that's a skill for you to possess; but you must use it carefully, or risk alienating the audience.

My sentence, "Jim would be lucky" was not meant to sting. I had no intention of insulting him because I don't consider being gay insulting.

What my post means that I know many wonderful human beings who happen to be gay men. Jim would be lucky to be among men like these. They are beautiful, kind and loving people.

If you read the post you will see that I said being gay is NOT an insult before I said Jim would be lucky. That proves I had no intention of insulting JIM.

[logroller]

Fag is a term of endearment? Do you understand the origin of the term. "Faggot" refer to pieces of wood that gay men had to gather and place on pyres where they were burned at the stake. Faggot equals death. I know some people wish illness and death on gays, but luckily they are in the minority.

I understand you guys use the term differently. I doubt I'll ever be comfortable with it, but I'll see if I can react less seriously when you use it.
That's unsubstantiated, WS. Far more colloquially in North America the term is referenced to a especially effeminate male, so flagrant is his homosexuality that he is flaming like a faggot.

[Wind Song]

LMFAO!! F'ing GAY!! haha...pathetic AND untrue.

The only difference between a gay person and a normal person is what they DO. Their actions define them.

Geesh. Give it a rest.


I will give it a rest now. I think it's important for anyone who is committed to teaching tolerance that when people use racist, homophobic, misogynist terms they be informed about how they may affect other people.

I have that committment. I will always speak up when people use slurs.

[darin]

I will give it a rest now. I think it's important for anyone who is committed to teaching tolerance that when people use racist, homophobic, misogynist terms they be informed about how they may affect other people.


I can't get over the irony of two things:

First, a minority group of soceity dictating what words mean.

Second - somebody preaching 'tolerance' not tolerating folks' words.

[logroller]

My sentence, "Jim would be lucky" was not meant to sting. I had no intention of insulting him because I don't consider being gay insulting.

What my post means that I know many wonderful human beings who happen to be gay men. Jim would be lucky to be among men like these. They are beautiful, kind and loving people.

If you read the post you will see that I said being gay is NOT an insult before I said Jim would be lucky. That proves I had no intention of insulting JIM.

Regardless; it did sting. You implied Jim wasn't lucky or loved, and by including the 'gay' modifiers you suggest causation.

[logroller]

I will give it a rest now. I think it's important for anyone who is committed to teaching tolerance that when people use racist, homophobic, misogynist terms they be informed about how they may affect other people.

I have that committment. I will always speak up when people use slurs.

Have you ever chastised a gay man for using a slur, like fag?

[DragonStryk72]

Fag is a term of endearment? Do you understand the origin of the term. "Faggot" refer to pieces of wood that gay men had to gather and place on pyres where they were burned at the stake. Faggot equals death. I know some people wish illness and death on gays, but luckily they are in the minority.

I understand you guys use the term differently. I doubt I'll ever be comfortable with it, but I'll see if I can react less seriously when you use it.

Unfortunately, too often people who say they aren't prejudiced end up using derogatory terms toward gays and lesbians they're angry with. That shows their true colors.

Actually, Faggot is a term that refers to a specific job in olden times, for the person who would gather sticks in the woods for firewood. Currently in England, it's a slang term for cigs. And even the current "slur" fag no longer refers to someone being gay, for the most part. They actually had a whole episode of South Park on it, believe it or not. Fag as a term has change more than five times in the past 100 years. Now it seems to be shifting again, away from referring to gays. It's now become more in line with calling someone a pussy or a wuss.

[Wind Song]

That's unsubstantiated, WS. Far more colloquially in North America the term is referenced to a especially effeminate male, so flagrant is his homosexuality that he is flaming like a faggot.


Well, it's still a derogatory term. I just found this:


The term faggot or fagot, meaning bundle of sticks, shows up around 1300 in English. It almost certainly came from Old French, possibly going back to Greek phakelos. Since those bundles of sticks were mainly used for fires, it's not surprising that the term came to mean burning sticks. Then there was that nasty business in medieval times where heretics were burned at the stake. Some later cites indicate heretics who repented and were spared a fiery death had to wear a picture of a faggot on their sleeve to show what might have been their fate. But no print evidence exists that homosexuals were referred to as faggots before the twentieth century, with the origin definitely in the U.S., not Britain.

The British continued to use the words fag and faggot as nouns, verbs and adjectives right through the early 20th century, never applying it to homosexuals at any time. To fag or to be a fag was a common term in British schools from the late 1700s and referred to a lower classman who performed chores for upperclassmen. While this term was also in vogue at Harvard in the first half of the 19th century, it died out by the mid-1800s in the U.S., leaving it in use only in England. Nineteenth century Britons also heard "faggot" used in reference to an ill-tempered woman, i.e., a ball-buster, a battleaxe, a shrew. That meaning of the term continued into the early 20th century, and the usage was gradually applied to children as well as women. The relationship, if any, between faggot-as-bundle-of-sticks and faggot-as-shrewish-woman is unknown.
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2112/how-did-faggot-get-to-mean-male-homosexual

[DragonStryk72]

Six steps for not using "gay" as a derogatory term.

Recognise that using the word gay as a derogatory term is considered homophobic (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/homophobia). Unless you already have, realise that using the word gay to insult something or someone implies that you think there is something wrong with being homosexual. This makes you look hateful.

Understand the word that you want to avoid using. Gay is just a term to describe a person's sexuality. Gay people have needs, feelings (http://www.debatepolicy.com/Express-Your-Feelings) and goals (http://www.debatepolicy.com/Set-Goals) just like you do. The only difference between a gay person (http://www.debatepolicy.com/Talk-with-a-Gay-or-Lesbian-Person) and a straight person is who they are attracted to. Understand that using the word gay in a derogatory manner is extremely insulting.

Register every time you use gay in a derogatory manner. Every time you use (or try to use) the word gay to refer to someone or something that you don't like or think is stupid, wrong or bad in any way, take a mental note. Examine why you want to use it, and then every time you want to, try to use a different word that is not offensive to gay people (http://www.debatepolicy.com/Understand-Gay-and-Lesbian-People) or any other person (http://www.debatepolicy.com/Be-Tolerant-of-Others). Use words like stupid, wick, annoying or wrong instead.

Come up with alternative phrases or words to use. When using replacements, remember that they apply not only to spoken language, but also to writing and most importantly, thinking. If you constantly challenge yourself to use alternatives, over time you will become more used to them and may even forget that you could have used to use the word gay - inappropriately. used to use the word gay - inappropriately.

http://www.wikihow.com/Build-Your-Vocabulary

Realize that calling people homophobic is actually both incorrect to the term, and insulting to the person you're angry at for a 'perceived' insult where none may actually exist. The insults of fag, and oddly enough, gay, no longer refer to gays anymore for the most part, or else my buddy Hector think my copy of Street Fighter IV has a penis and is out having sex with men.

MY dad should register every time he uses gay or fag in a derogatory manner? Oh that's gonna be fun.

[Wind Song]

Have you ever chastised a gay man for using a slur, like fag?


Yes, I have.

[Wind Song]

Realize that calling people homophobic is actually both incorrect to the term, and insulting to the person you're angry at for a 'perceived' insult where none may actually exist. The insults of fag, and oddly enough, gay, no longer refer to gays anymore for the most part, or else my buddy Hector think my copy of Street Fighter IV has a penis and is out having sex with men.

MY dad should register every time he uses gay or fag in a derogatory manner? Oh that's gonna be fun.


Your dad is alive. Mine isn't.

[Wind Song]

Regardless; it did sting. You implied Jim wasn't lucky or loved, and by including the 'gay' modifiers you suggest causation.

I had no intention of implying that Jim was unlucky or unloved. I'm sorry it stung. It wasn't my intention.
I meant that Jim would be just as lucky to be a loving gay man as he is a loving heterosexual man.

Over and over I said that the term "gay" should NOT be used as insult. When I used it to refer to Jim, I used it with the same love and respect I have for my father, who was gay.

I admit that I carry the burden of my father's death heavily in my heart. Gay hate was his undoing.

[DragonStryk72]

Your dad is alive. Mine isn't.

Um, I'm sorry about your dad, but what does that have to do with my dad, who is gay, I remind you, using gay and fag? See, this sort of stuff completely stops proper debate, because it is both wildly off topic, and it's clearly being used for guilt tripping, which just agitates people. Don't keep playing that card, WS, it never helps you. It comes across as you using your father's death as leverage against the people you're debating.

[Wind Song]

Um, I'm sorry about your dad, but what does that have to do with my dad, who is gay, I remind you, using gay and fag? See, this sort of stuff completely stops proper debate, because it is both wildly off topic, and it's clearly being used for guilt tripping, which just agitates people. Don't keep playing that card, WS, it never helps you. It comes across as you using your father's death as leverage against the people you're debating.

I'm not using my father's death as "debate leverage". I'm using it to show why I'm so sensitive to these derogatory terms.

It's background for the burden I carry. It speaks to my motivation, my loyalty to my father and my committment to not put up with predjudicial bullshit.

I lost my father to hate. I only mentioned your father, who is alive and well, (I'm happy to hear) to show that our experiences as children of gay men are different.

I do take your point, and I see why you think I'm "guilt tripping'. It isn't my intention. It shows my vulnerability and sensitivity are related to something as core and important as the loss of my father.

[ConHog]

It's part of life; there's always someone trying to get up by stepping on those ahead. But I don't really think its quite as cutthroat as a pecking order in most cases. Usually, its just guys unable to show their emotions for fear of rejection. Oddly, it becomes a term of endearment; that when Jim calls me a fag, he's sort of admitting he likes me, just not in that way. ;)

Although with Jim one never knows for sure. :lol:

[Wind Song]

I've got a pretty idea of how Jim views me.

[logroller]

Actually, Faggot is a term that refers to a specific job in olden times, for the person who would gather sticks in the woods for firewood. Currently in England, it's a slang term for cigs. And even the current "slur" fag no longer refers to someone being gay, for the most part. They actually had a whole episode of South Park on it, believe it or not. Fag as a term has change more than five times in the past 100 years. Now it seems to be shifting again, away from referring to gays. It's now become more in line with calling someone a pussy or a wuss.

Freaking hilarious.
http://www.southparkstudios.com/full-episodes/s13e12-the-f-word

[Wind Song]

A whole episode of South Park on it? I bet it was funny.

[Dilloduck]

I'm not using my father's death as "debate leverage". I'm using it to show why I'm so sensitive to these derogatory terms.

It's background for the burden I carry. It speaks to my motivation, my loyalty to my father and my committment to not put up with predjudicial bullshit.

I lost my father to hate. I only mentioned your father, who is alive and well, (I'm happy to hear) to show that our experiences as children of gay men are different.

I do take your point, and I see why you think I'm "guilt tripping'. It isn't my intention. It shows my vulnerability and sensitivity are related to something as core and important as the loss of my father.

You didn't lose your father to hate. It was suicide.

[logroller]

Although with Jim one never knows for sure. :lol:

Still holding out hope I see....just let it go, man.:poke:

[Wind Song]

I'd appreciate it if you don't talk about my father. You don't know what I know about his life. I won't speculate on your family. Stay off mine.

Family is off limits. I can talk about my family, you can't.

[Dilloduck]

I'd appreciate it if you don't talk about my father. You don't know what I know about his life. I won't speculate on your family. Stay off mine.

Then leave him out of the discussion.

[Wind Song]

Then leave him out of the discussion.

I can mention something about my family, you don't get to use it against me in a debate. My family is off limits to you.

[Dilloduck]

I can mention something about my family, you don't get to use it against me in a debate. My family is off limits to you.

Whatever----do what you need to win.

[Wind Song]

Whatever----do what you need to win.

I do not mention family in order to "win". I never win an argument here. I mentioned it because it speaks to my passion on certain topics.



There will be no flaming of another members family, whether directly or indirectly. This applies to all sections of the board, private messages and reputation comments. If the family member is not here to defend themselves, then they should not be attacked in any manner. Even if a member discusses their own family, they remain off limits.

[jimnyc]

If a member brings up their family member, they are now open to the discussion - but they are not open to flaming or being belittled. But someone cannot come here, use a family member as part of a post, and then expect the community to ignore the post. Discussion if the member brought them up is ok - flaming is not ok.

[Wind Song]

That's not how the rule reads.

Even if a member discusses their own family, they remain off limits.






From now on, I will NEVER talk about my wife, my father or any other family history. The rule didn't appear to make my family an open topic if I happen to mention them.

[DragonStryk72]

I'm not using my father's death as "debate leverage". I'm using it to show why I'm so sensitive to these derogatory terms.

It's background for the burden I carry. It speaks to my motivation, my loyalty to my father and my committment to not put up with predjudicial bullshit.

I lost my father to hate. I only mentioned your father, who is alive and well, (I'm happy to hear) to show that our experiences as children of gay men are different.

I do take your point, and I see why you think I'm "guilt tripping'. It isn't my intention. It shows my vulnerability and sensitivity are related to something as core and important as the loss of my father.

And we already know about your dad. You didn't explain anything, put any context at all, just "Your dad is alive. Mine isn't." That's it, that's everything people had to read on the subject. Even now, we're discussing that instead of the topic

I know what it's like from my own experiences at being bullied growing up to be the subject of mass ridicule. I was the shortest, scrawniest, and smartest kid in my class, and I was almost constantly reading something or other, whether it be The Hobbit, Charlotte's Web, or a book on Volcanoes, I was almost always reading. I aced tests I didn't even study for, and passed classes only doing enough homework to not get my parents on my case. I took beatings, numerous ones, and when I got switched into a catholic school for junior high, it turned to pure verbal abuse. Only now, because I was playing Dungeons & Dragons, I was getting called a Satan worshipper because people for idiotic reason believe that the game involved summoning the devil to play it. Even in high school, when I switched over to Catholic High, I was still a geek, and the friends at school I had were the other outcasts of the school. From Kindergarten to 12th grade, I was the continually bullied, verbally and physically.

However, the reason I mention this is important to what I'm getting across to you: Most people have been through horrible things, but it isn't about the things that happen, it is how we handle them, and what we do with those experiences that defines us.

[jimnyc]

If you cannot comprehend the rules and what they are meant to prevent happening, that's not our problem. But it's easily resolved, if you don't want anyone in your family being discussed on this board, then don't bring them up on this board.

[Aeryn Sun]

Debating is gay.

[jimnyc]

And we already know about your dad. You didn't explain anything, put any context at all, just "Your dad is alive. Mine isn't."

You done broke the rules!!! :lol:

[logroller]

That's not how the rule reads.

Even if a member discusses their own family, they remain off limits.






From now on, I will NEVER talk about my wife, my father or any other family history.

WHat section did that rule come from...the flaming section. Its best not to cherry facts, especially from a resource so easily verified.


Flaming...There will be no flaming of another members family, whether directly or indirectly. This applies to all sections of the board, private messages and reputation comments. If the family member is not here to defend themselves, then they should not be attacked in any manner. Even if a member discusses their own family, they remain off limits.

[Wind Song]

if you cannot comprehend the rules and what they are meant to prevent happening, that's not our problem. But it's easily resolved, if you don't want anyone in your family being discussed on this board, then don't bring them up on this board.

from now on i will never discuss any personal details or bring up my family again.

[Wind Song]

WHat section did that rule come from...the flaming section. Its best not to cherry facts, especially from a resource so easily verified.


Excuse me. I quoted the rules.

[jimnyc]

That's correct, Log:

Flaming...There will be no flaming of another members family, whether directly or indirectly. This applies to all sections of the board, private messages and reputation comments. If the family member is not here to defend themselves, then they should not be attacked in any manner. Even if a member discusses their own family, they remain off limits.

Very clearly refers to FLAMING. This rule in no way was intended to allow someone to mention their family members whenever they want and other members can't reply.

[jimnyc]

from now on i will never discuss any personal details or bring up my family again.

I really don't give a shit if you do or if you don't.

[Wind Song]

I can see that being a real person here isn't how you guys debate. I will not bring up any personal details again. No anecdotes or stories.

[jimnyc]

I can see that being a real person here isn't how you guys debate. I will not bring up any personal details again. No anecdotes or stories.

Being real is NOT acting like you were just giving a beating because someone referenced a family member - a family member that YOU just brought up in the prior post. Here we go again, you say something, someone replies, and now you're a victim again. Just like fucking clockwork, and meanwhile, not a negative thing was spoken to you about family.

[logroller]

That's correct, Log:

Flaming...There will be no flaming of another members family, whether directly or indirectly. This applies to all sections of the board, private messages and reputation comments. If the family member is not here to defend themselves, then they should not be attacked in any manner. Even if a member discusses their own family, they remain off limits.

Very clearly refers to FLAMING. This rule in no way was intended to allow someone to mention their family members whenever they want and other members can't reply.

Were it otherwise, I couldn't tell CH, "Congrats to you and your wife" Ooops, mentioned another's family; ban me now please.:coffee:

[Wind Song]

I really don't give a shit if you do or if you don't.


I'd prefer you stay FAR AWAY from me from now on. We're NOT on speaking terms.

[jimnyc]

I'd prefer you stay FAR AWAY from me from now on. We're NOT on speaking terms.

My board, it might be easier if you stay away from those you don't like. I'm not going to avoid things on the very board I pay for.

[jimnyc]

Were it otherwise, I couldn't tell CH, "Congrats to you and your wife" Ooops, mentioned another's family; ban me now please.:coffee:

I can see it now:

Conhog: "My wife is 7 months pregnant now and is eating some weird stuff at weird hours"
Logroller: "Really, what is it she wants? Does she make you go get it"

Reported post: "Can someone please ban Logroller for discussing my wife"

[ConHog]

I really don't give a shit if you do or if you don't.

Is calling Sky's dad a fag against the rules?

[logroller]

Excuse me. I quoted the rules.

I know what you did; but do you see how you picked out a certain part of rules, losing the context of the reference to flaming-- that's called "cherry-picking" : Taking only the facts which support your premise, even though in reality it didn't.

[ConHog]

I'd prefer you stay FAR AWAY from me from now on. We're NOT on speaking terms.

You DO realize that you in fact just spoke to him , don't you?

[jimnyc]

Is calling Sky's dad a fag against the rules?

Yes, and you know better. If she refers to his sexual orientation, you can refer to it in kind, but not in a flaming manner.

[logroller]

I can see it now:

Conhog: "My wife is 7 months pregnant now and is eating some weird stuff at weird hours"
Logroller: "Really, what is it she wants? Does she make you go get it"

Reported post: "Can someone please ban Logroller for discussing my wife"

Total conhog move too...he's a total het like that. :lol:

[DragonStryk72]

I can see that being a real person here isn't how you guys debate. I will not bring up any personal details again. No anecdotes or stories.

Ah good, more leveraged guilt tripping. One more thing to stop debate with.

[ConHog]

Yes, and you know better. If she refers to his sexual orientation, you can refer to it in kind, but not in a flaming manner.

I don't consider fag to be a flame even towards gays, not any more than you consider it flaming when you call gays queers.

[DragonStryk72]

Is calling Sky's dad a fag against the rules?

lol, if you're doing it to flame her, then yes.

[ConHog]

Total conhog move too...he's a total het like that. :lol:

True story, I once had a poster on here cal my wife a wet black slut and I threw less of a fit about that than WS throws if you even look crossways at her for being gay.

[logroller]

True story, I once had a poster on here cal my wife a wet black slut and I threw less of a fit about that than WS throws if you even look crossways at her for being gay.

did you mean wet- back?

[ConHog]

lol, if you're doing it to flame her, then yes.


ah but again, the RULE states no flaming family. So if I use her family to flame her that is not against the rule. I mean technically I suppose it is, but in reality, only Sky considers fag to be a flame so I'm flaming her, not her dad if I'm flaming anyone.





note - I'm just fucking with Jim's head.

[ConHog]

did you mean wet- back?


oops typo . a wet black slut LOL , I'm pretty sure all sluts are wet from time to time.

[logroller]

ah but again, the RULE states no flaming family. So if I use her family to flame her that is not against the rule. I mean technically I suppose it is, but in reality, only Sky considers fag to be a flame so I'm flaming her, not her dad if I'm flaming anyone.





note - I'm just fucking with Jim's head.

Perhaps we need a DebatePolicy case law thread....

[jimnyc]

I don't consider fag to be a flame even towards gays, not any more than you consider it flaming when you call gays queers.


lol, if you're doing it to flame her, then yes.

I use fag all the time too, and generally its meant to be a fun thing. Just like when my brother says something dumb, I call him a dumbass. But if a stranger does so, I won't, as I don't feel comfortable with them and don't consider them a friend.

But if one wholly acknowledges that they irrationally consider it an insult, then I would think going out of ones way to use that word, would be flaming. Use it all you want, just not against someone that can't reply.

[jimnyc]

oops typo . a wet black slut LOL , I'm pretty sure all sluts are wet from time to time.

Your woman is a wet back slut? Post me a picture or 2 please!! :coffee:

[logroller]

oops typo . a wet black slut LOL , I'm pretty sure all sluts are wet from time to time.

I mean, if they used black as a pejorative for your wife; that's really a flame against black people. And slut, IMO, isn't all that negative.


FYI-- hey DS72, I'm sitting on my porch and harley just cruised, blaring music to drown out the sound of his exhaust.....I thought, what a fag! :laugh:

[DragonStryk72]

I mean, if they used black as a pejorative for your wife; that's really a flame against black people. And slut, IMO, isn't all that negative.


FYI-- hey DS72, I'm sitting on my porch and harley just cruised, blaring music to drown out the sound of his exhaust.....I thought, what a fag! :laugh:

lol, you should make a sign to tell the fag to go home

[logroller]

Can we change the title of this thread to "Learning how to debate, by counter-example"?

[ConHog]

Can we change the title of this thread to "Learning how to debate, by counter-example"?

SHup fag.

[Wind Song]

My board, it might be easier if you stay away from those you don't like. I'm not going to avoid things on the very board I pay for.

I used to like you and enjoy posting with you, but not lately. From now on, I will avoid you like the plague.

[jimnyc]

I used to like you and enjoy posting with you, but not lately. From now on, I will avoid you like the plague.

You're like a child, who needs to announce it for attention, and to be the victim. I like to poke at attention whores. :poke:

[logroller]

I used to like you and enjoy posting with you, but not lately. From now on, I will avoid you like the plague.

Are you calling Jim an unkempt medieval European? That's racist!!!!

[Wind Song]

Ah good, more leveraged guilt tripping. One more thing to stop debate with.


That's not what I meant. I just took a half hour to meditate and what I realized it that it's time for me to lay down the burden of the heavy sword and shield I've carred all my life thinking my fragile dad needed my protection.

I don't want to bring my dad into any more topics, and I'm going to retire from being the gay PC squad.

I'm going to train myself to not react when you guys call each other queer, gay, faggot, and all the rest.

Carry on.

I'm ready to lighten up.

[ConHog]

You're like a child, who needs to announce it for attention, and to be the victim. I like to poke at attention whores. :poke:

She's narcissistic. EVERYTHING has to be about HER.

Her "wife" must be a saint.

[Wind Song]

Are you calling Jim an unkempt medieval European? That's racist!!!!

No, more like plague the disease. Killing all joy and deathly for me.

[ConHog]

That's not what I meant. I just took a half hour to meditate and what I realized it that it's time for me to lay down the burden of the heavy sword and shield I've carred all my life thinking my fragile dad needed my protection.

I don't want to bring my dad into any more topics, and I'm going to retire from being the gay PC squad.

I'm going to train myself to not react when you guys call each other queer, gay, faggot, and all the rest.

Carry on.

I'm ready to lighten up.

Glad to hear that dyke.


:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

[Wind Song]

Can we change the title of this thread to "Learning how to debate, by counter-example"?


I certainly do all the wrong things when it comes to debate.

[Wind Song]

I know what you did; but do you see how you picked out a certain part of rules, losing the context of the reference to flaming-- that's called "cherry-picking" : Taking only the facts which support your premise, even though in reality it didn't.


OK. I hear what you're saying. dillo had every intention of mentioning my dad's suicide to hurt me. I'd call that flaming.

[logroller]

No, more like plague the disease. Killing all joy and deathly for me.

I know what the plague is, i.e. black death, it ravaged europe several times during the medieval period; hence my reference to Jim's european ancestry. Get it?

[Wind Song]

Glad to hear that dyke.


:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:


Call each other whatever queer insult you choose but don't call me a dyke. Thank you.

[Wind Song]

I know what the plague is, i.e. black death, it ravaged europe several times during the medieval period; hence my reference to Jim's european ancestry. Get it?

Yes.

[logroller]

OK. I hear what you're saying. dillo had every intention of mentioning my dad's suicide to hurt me. I'd call that flaming.

Well, I'm quite sure its unfair to assume what another's intentions are. I can tell you the way I interpreted it; and it wasn't to hurt you.

[ConHog]

Well, I'm quite sure its unfair to assume what another's intentions are. I can tell you the way I interpreted it; and it wasn't to hurt you.

Actually, knowing Dillhole I will side with Sky on this one, he most assuredly was using it as a weapon against her. Now of course if she would not react to every god damned thing that jerk off says he'd get bored and go away , just like all bullies do; but that doesn't change why he said it.

[ConHog]

Call each other whatever queer insult you choose but don't call me a dyke. Thank you.

are you confirming that you are in fact not a lesbian?

[Wind Song]

Well, I'm quite sure its unfair to assume what another's intentions are. I can tell you the way I interpreted it; and it wasn't to hurt you.

He is NEVER kind in his intentions toward me. Feel free to say how you interpreted it, but I've known dillo for years and he's a mean bastard. He's a mind fucker. He knows how senstive I am about my dad and he was using it as a weapon.

[logroller]

Actually, knowing Dillhole I will side with Sky on this one, he most assuredly was using it as a weapon against her. Now of course if she would not react to every god damned thing that jerk off says he'd get bored and go away , just like all bullies do; but that doesn't change why he said it.

Disagree. It seemed matter of fact; curt perhaps, but not insulting.

[logroller]

He is NEVER kind in his intentions toward me. Feel free to say how you interpreted it, but I've known dillo for years and he's a mean bastard. He's a mind fucker.

Perhaps I just enjoy a good fuck; mind or otherwise.

[Wind Song]

are you confirming that you are in fact not a lesbian?
Cut it out. I am a lesbian, I am not a "dyke", anymore than a black man is a "nigger" or a Jew is a "kike".

[ConHog]

Disagree. It seemed matter of fact; curt perhaps, but not insulting.

I respect you a lot LR , but if you will read around on this board , not to mention go look at some past posts on another board you will see that Dillo is a fan of the snide cutting remarks , especially when it comes to SKy.

Sorry that's just the way I see it - and the fact is I'm never wrong. :fu:

[Wind Song]

Perhaps I just enjoy a good fuck; mind or otherwise.


Or maybe you just like to "fuck people over".

[logroller]

are you confirming that you are in fact not a lesbian?

Dyke doesn't mean lesbian. Like fag doesn't mean gay....you should watch the south park episode.:thumb:

[ConHog]

Cut it out. I am a lesbian, I am not a "dyke", anymore than a black man is a "nigger" or a Jew is a "kike".

So now you're trying to equate the gay struggle with what blacks and jews have faced historically?

Pathetic.

[logroller]

Or maybe you just like to "fuck people over".

Not really, I enjoy watching someone fuck oneself.

[Wind Song]

Disagree. It seemed matter of fact; curt perhaps, but not insulting.

His intention toward me is 100% negative ALL the time. He's ALWAYS trying to hurt me whatever way he can.

[Wind Song]

Not really, I enjoy watching someone fuck oneself.


Do you know what the term, "mind fucking" means?

[ConHog]

Not really, I enjoy watching someone fuck oneself.

You wanna watch Sky masturbate?

That is SICK.

[jimnyc]

His intention toward me is 100% negative ALL the time. He's ALWAYS trying to hurt me whatever way he can.

And yet you have an option to place members on ignore, and never see this stuff again - and you don't do so, even though you claimed you have. No sympathy here.

[jimnyc]

You wanna watch Sky masturbate?

That is SICK.

That is perhaps the most disturbing thing ever posted on this board.

[Wind Song]

So now you're trying to equate the gay struggle with what blacks and jews have faced historically?

Pathetic.

It's similar. All of those groups have had their own civil rights struggles. Gay people were murdered in the Holocaust just like Jews were.

[logroller]

I respect you a lot LR , but if you will read around on this board , not to mention go look at some past posts on another board you will see that Dillo is a fan of the snide cutting remarks , especially when it comes to SKy.

Sorry that's just the way I see it - and the fact is I'm never wrong. :fu:

"Generalizations are always false, including this one."-- Mark Twain

[Wind Song]

Not really, I enjoy watching someone fuck oneself.

"Mind fucking" a form of cruelty. It's a type of manipulation.

[logroller]

It's similar. All of those groups have had their own civil rights struggles. Gay people were murdered in the Holocaust just like Jews were.


So were prisoners of war...

Its similar, yes. But not the same. Equating highly stigmatized examples, e.g. the Holocaust, to add credence to your argument is called hyperbole.

[ConHog]

It's similar. All of those groups have had their own civil rights struggles. Gay people were murdered in the Holocaust just like Jews were.



Reallly? What camp were the gays gassed in? Just like the Jews... That is an insult to the Jewish people.


PS can you cite a single example of a straights only bathroom, or name a single time a gay was sent to the back of the bus?

[jimnyc]

"Mind fucking" a form of cruelty. It's a type of manipulation.

Refusing to place someone on ignore. A form of self torture, and self pity, and allows someone to proclaim victimhood.

[Wind Song]

So were prisoners of war...

Its similar, yes. But not the same. Equating highly stigmatized examples, e.g. the Holocaust, to add credence to your argument is called hyperbole.


Yes, you're probably right in the debate sense. I don't claim to be able to debate well. I'm pointing out that blacks, Jews and gays are historically oppressed. All have been societal scapegoats.

[logroller]

"Mind fucking" a form of cruelty. It's a type of manipulation.

Debate and persuasion utilize many forms of manipulation. see also: ethos, pathos, logos. You think LBJ didn't manipulate people to get the Civil Rights Bill passed...think again.

[Wind Song]

Reallly? What camp were the gays gassed in? Just like the Jews... That is an insult to the Jewish people.


PS can you cite a single example of a straights only bathroom, or name a single time a gay was sent to the back of the bus?


It's not an insult to the Jewish people. Not only Jews were victims of the Holocaust. Mentally ill people, mentally retarded, Soveits, and Poles, gays and intellectuals were sent to the death camps.

It's historical truth.

Consider the trouble a cross dresser gets in going to the ladies room. Straights only bathrooms don't have signs, but woe to the transgendered or cross dresser to go into the wrong bathroom.

[logroller]

Yes, you're probably right in the debate sense. I don't claim to be able to debate well. I'm pointing out that blacks, Jews and gays are historically oppressed. All have been societal scapegoats.

Its fine; I'm not mad at or judging you. I trying to show you different debate skills; what they are and why they're used/ not used.

[Wind Song]

Debate and persuasion utilize many forms of manipulation. see also: ethos, pathos, logos. You think LBJ didn't manipulate people to get the Civil Rights Bill passed...think again.


Do you really not understand what verbal, psychological abuse is?

[jimnyc]

Consider the trouble a cross dresser gets in going to the ladies room. Straights only bathrooms don't have signs, but woe to the transgendered or cross dresser to go into the wrong bathroom.

No fucking sympathy for deranged people who don't know how to dress and inappropriately go into the wrong gender bathroom. They are hardly being treated wrong. They DESERVE to be in trouble if they purposely go into the other genders bathroom. Tough shit.

[Wind Song]

Ever hear of the term, "gaslighting"?

[DragonStryk72]

That's not what I meant. I just took a half hour to meditate and what I realized it that it's time for me to lay down the burden of the heavy sword and shield I've carred all my life thinking my fragile dad needed my protection.

I don't want to bring my dad into any more topics, and I'm going to retire from being the gay PC squad.

I'm going to train myself to not react when you guys call each other queer, gay, faggot, and all the rest.

Carry on.

I'm ready to lighten up.

I realize that may not be what you meant, but we are limited here by what is written, and so what you write stands. It's a good thing that you are learning, because we really are willing to talk in a friendly manner with you, on numerous topics.

[logroller]

Do you really not understand what verbal, psychological abuse is?

Understand it just fine. I also know what obfuscation means. In this instance, it means you'd rather talk about someone's intentions, because what they actually said is irrefutable. Classic shoot the messenger ploy; I'm not so easily manipulated.

[Aeryn Sun]

Denounced as "antisocial parasites" and as "enemies of the state," more than 100,000 men were arrested under a broadly interpreted law against homosexuality.


Analyses of fragmentary records suggest that between 5,000 and 15,000 homosexual men were imprisoned in concentration camps, where many died from starvation, disease, exhaustion, beatings, and murder.


Nazi Germany did not seek to kill all homosexuals. Nevertheless, the Nazi state, through active persecution, attempted to terrorize German homosexuals into sexual and social conformity, leaving thousands dead and shattering the lives of many more.

http://www.ushmm.org/museum/exhibit/online/hsx/

[Wind Song]

I realize that may not be what you meant, but we are limited here by what is written, and so what you write stands. It's a good thing that you are learning, because we really are willing to talk in a friendly manner with you, on numerous topics.


I'm trying. I appreciate that you notice that. I will improve. It's takes time. I've not been trained in debate. I appreciate how respectful you are most of the time.

[logroller]

Ever hear of the term, "gaslighting"?

It was an old movie. recently there was another movie with a similar setup; only the woman was convinced she never had children. What was your point?

[DragonStryk72]

It's not an insult to the Jewish people. Not only Jews were victims of the Holocaust. Mentally ill people, mentally retarded, Soveits, and Poles, gays and intellectuals were sent to the death camps.

It's historical truth.

Consider the trouble a cross dresser gets in going to the ladies room. Straights only bathrooms don't have signs, but woe to the transgendered or cross dresser to go into the wrong bathroom.

How hard is this: If you have a penis, Men's Room. If your have a vagina, Women's Room. Everything else is your own personal issue. This isn't difficult. Know what I've noticed with men's room? WE don't care, as long as you just get in, do your thing, and get out.

You act like the gays were specifically targeted, but why did the holocaust even have to be in this conversation? Anyone who wasn't "The Master Race" according to the Nazis was on the block, so strictly speaking, they treated gays just like they did everybody else.

[Wind Song]

It was an old movie. recently there was another movie with a similar setup; only the woman was convinced she never had children. What was your point?

It occurs when someone trys to make another person crazy. Perpetrators of psychological abuse frequently use this strategy. A good movie that illustrates it is called A WOMAN UNDER THE INFLUENCE stars Gena Rowland and Peter Falk.

Literally the husband, Peter Falk, drives his wife crazy, and the cycle is she is hospitalized, gets better, goes home to her mentally abusive husband and cracks up.

[Wind Song]

How hard is this: If you have a penis, Men's Room. If your have a vagina, Women's Room. Everything else is your own personal issue. This isn't difficult. Know what I've noticed with men's room? WE don't care, as long as you just get in, do your thing, and get out.

You act like the gays were specifically targeted, but why did the holocaust even have to be in this conversation? Anyone who wasn't "The Master Race" according to the Nazis was on the block, so strictly speaking, they treated gays just like they did everybody else.

A cross dresser with a penis going into a men's room is not likely to make it out alive. CH challenged me that gays and lesbians shouldn't be in the same company with blacks and Jews. That's how the Holocaust topic arose.

[Kathianne]

It's not an insult to the Jewish people. Not only Jews were victims of the Holocaust. Mentally ill people, mentally retarded, Soveits, and Poles, gays and intellectuals were sent to the death camps.

It's historical truth.

Consider the trouble a cross dresser gets in going to the ladies room. Straights only bathrooms don't have signs, but woe to the transgendered or cross dresser to go into the wrong bathroom.

Why do you discriminate against the Rom Gypsies, priests and nuns, and Jehovah's Witnesses ?

[Wind Song]

Why do you discriminate against the Rom Gypsies, priests and nuns, and Jehovah's Witnesses ?


What makes you think I do? That's like asking me when am I going to stop beating my wife?

My apologies for overlooking these groups, who also perished in the Holocaust. It was NOT a deliberate act of discrimination.

[logroller]

A cross dresser with a penis going into a men's room is not likely to make it out alive.

That's an outlandish assertion. Men aren't violently oppressive brutes any more than women are stupid and weak.

[jimnyc]

A cross dresser with a penis going into a men's room is not likely to make it out alive.

Someone willingly putting on the opposite sexes clothing should think about the consequences or their actions, or avoid going places that are certain sex only. Crossdresser should seek mental therapy before using public restrooms again.

[DragonStryk72]

A cross dresser with a penis going into a men's room is not likely to make it out alive. CH challenged me that gays and lesbians shouldn't be in the same company with blacks and Jews. That's how the Holocaust topic arose.

Where the fuck do you live that these mass murders are occurring?! This is the sort of blanket statement with no backing that gets people so pissed off.

I just told you something that flies in the face of what you wrote here, but you obviously just dismissed it out of hand, or ignored it. You know what you do? The same thing women have done for years, "Sorry, there's a line in the women's room, and I can't wait". Then use the toilet, and depart.

Black and Jews were brought up. However, the holocaust was not. You brought up the holocaust in a discussion that had no need or want of it. It arose because you made it do so by your own choices.

[Wind Song]

That's an outlandish assertion. Men aren't violently oppressive brutes any more than women are stupid and weak.

I did not say "ALL MEN are violently oppressive brutes". And you had to throw in the snarky any more than "women are stupid and weak".

CH said more or less that gays aren't as oppressive as blacks were because we aren't forced to go to the back of the bus, or to use "gay only" bathrooms.

Transvestites and transexuals generally use women's bathrooms, because they are dressed as women, and some may even be surgically altered to be female.

They would not normally enter a men's room dressed as a woman without fear.

[jimnyc]

I did not say "ALL MEN are violently oppressive brutes". And you had to throw in the snarky any more than "women are stupid and weak".

CH said more or less that gays aren't as oppressive as blacks were because we aren't forced to go to the back of the bus, or to use "gay only" bathrooms.

Transvestites and transexuals generally use women's bathrooms, because they are dressed as women, and some may even be surgically altered to be female.

They would not normally enter a men's room dressed as a woman without fear.

Not sure what transvestites and transexuals have to do with "gay". But there's a bottom line - what your plumbing is dictates what bathroom you use. If you are dressed inappropriately for a PUBLIC bathroom, others shouldn't have to deal with it.

[Wind Song]

Gay, Lesbian, Transgendered, Bi-sexual and Questioning, are the collective category of people who share common civil rights issues.

[jimnyc]

I'm going to be rich!! I just hatched a foolproof plan. I'm going to start wearing my wife's undies and bra everywhere I go. I'll wear a top and bottom, but be very revealing. I will sue each and every establishment that denies me entry, for a cool 1 million dollars. Also all of those who won't let me use the women's facilities.Even if I only win 5% of my suits, I'll be a rich man! How dare they stop me from being fucked in the head. Oh, and in the very rare moment that places DO allow me to enter the women's bathrooms -well I suppose I win there too!

[logroller]

I did not say "ALL MEN are violently oppressive brutes". And you had to throw in the snarky any more than "women are stupid and weak".

CH said more or less that gays aren't as oppressive as blacks were because we aren't forced to go to the back of the bus, or to use "gay only" bathrooms.

Transvestites and transexuals generally use women's bathrooms, because they are dressed as women, and some may even be surgically altered to be female.

They would not normally enter a men's room dressed as a woman without fear.

Not all. Really? Just the men that use the men's restroom; who, pray tell uses the men's restroom if not all men?
What you said was incredibly insensitive to me as a man who is perfectly accepting of others. I know what you meant, it was bullshit, and you know it. I dish back a little of the same and I'm snarky??? I know how to respond in kind WS; I've not been doing so out of consideration for your attempt to improve...so maintain your poise. Broadly cutting remarks don't win you any compassion.

[DragonStryk72]

I did not say "ALL MEN are violently oppressive brutes". And you had to throw in the snarky any more than "women are stupid and weak".

Except that he is refering to the attitude you keep displaying, until you're actually called out on it, and post like this.

CH said more or less that gays aren't as oppressive as blacks were because we aren't forced to go to the back of the bus, or to use "gay only" bathrooms.

Opressed, first off, slight but significant difference. Second, that still in no way excuses throwing the holocaust into the debate.

Transvestites and transexuals generally use women's bathrooms, because they are dressed as women, and some may even be surgically altered to be female.

Like I said, penis=men's room, vagina=women's room.

They would not normally enter a men's room dressed as a woman without fear.

Unless you prepared to prove that the murders you keep saying happen are happening in men's rooms, then this is an unfounded fear.

[Wind Song]

Not all. Really? Just the men that use the men's restroom; who, pray tell uses the men's restroom if not all men?
What you said was incredibly insensitive to me as a man who is perfectly accepting of others. I know what you meant, it was bullshit, and you know it. I dish back a little of the same and I'm snarky??? I know how to respond in kind WS; I've not been doing so out of consideration for your attempt to improve...so maintain your poise. Broadly cutting remarks don't win you any compassion.

I don't think all men are "violently oppressive brutes" (your term, not mine). I don't think MOST men are "violently oppressive brutes". I do know men who ARE violently oppressive brutes. I work a crisis line.

That doesn't mean I think all men are compassionate angels. I don't think all men are so secure in their sexuality, that they would never feel uncomfortable or violent toward a transgender or a transvestite.

Lighten up. I meant no offense, I'm not sure you feel the same. It seems you are angry with me now.