Laughing at Arizona (again)

[gabosaurus]

Even some citizens of Arizona are getting unhappy with the shenanigans.

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/local/articles/2012/05/18/20120518arizona-laughingstock-nation.html

[Missileman]

His paternal granny says he was born in Kenya, a biographer wrote he was born in Kenya, there was a newspaper article from when he ran for the Senate that said he was born in Kenya. Is there really NO BASIS for the doubt about his BC?

[ConHog]

His paternal granny says he was born in Kenya, a biographer wrote he was born in Kenya, there was a newspaper article from when he ran for the Senate that said he was born in Kenya. Is there really NO BASIS for the doubt about his BC?

Its a stupid non issue. Hes a natural born us citizen. Hammer him on what a terrible job hes done so far

[Missileman]

If he was actually born in Kenya he is inelligible...hardly a non-issue, and definitely not a stupid one.

[ConHog]

If he was actually born in Kenya he is inelligible...hardly a non-issue, and definitely not a stupid one.

Yeah the. Fact that his mom was a us citizen means nothing......

[darin]

We're not talking about his citizenship; we're talking about 'natural born citizen' and what that means.

The question would be: "Is kenya " within the dominions and allegiance of the United States...*"

* Sandf. at 663, Leg.Obs. at 250

[Missileman]

Yeah the. Fact that his mom was a us citizen means nothing......

It's a fact that doesn't make him a "natural born citizen" elligible to be the President. The lame-stream media has done its best to redefine the term. Bobby Jindal's name has been tossed about for VP, but he's not elligible either.

[fj1200]

It's a fact that doesn't make him a "natural born citizen" elligible to be the President. The lame-stream media has done its best to redefine the term. Bobby Jindal's name has been tossed about for VP, but he's not elligible either.

Sure he is. Born in Baton Rouge.

[Missileman]

Sure he is. Born in Baton Rouge.

To two non-U.S. citizens...inelligible.

[fj1200]

To two non-U.S. citizens...inelligible.

It appears not.


A 2011 Congressional Research Service (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congressional_Research_Service) report stated
The weight of legal and historical authority indicates that the term “natural born” citizen would mean a person who is entitled to U.S. citizenship “by birth” or “at birth,” either by being born “in” the United States and under its jurisdiction, even those born to alien parents; by being born abroad to U.S. citizen-parents; or by being born in other situations meeting legal requirements for U.S. citizenship “at birth.” Such term, however, would not include a person who was not a U.S. citizen by birth or at birth, and who was thus born an “alien” required to go through the legal process of “naturalization” to become a U.S. citizen.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural-born-citizen_clause

[ConHog]

It appears not.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural-born-citizen_clause

and this phrase

by being born abroad to U.S. citizen-parents

means all this BS about he was born in Kenya is just that BS.

Now, I certainly would be interested in knowing if he committed fraud when it came to his college applications, but that has ZERO to do with his eligibility as President.

[DragonStryk72]

It's a fact that doesn't make him a "natural born citizen" elligible to be the President. The lame-stream media has done its best to redefine the term. Bobby Jindal's name has been tossed about for VP, but he's not elligible either.

Yes, please, by all means, make us all look like more of a set of loons, that's great. I'm certain it won't be used as ammo against us. Give it up, it's not getting proven, it's not getting addressed and the rules are stacked against us on this, but we can beat Obama, if the idiots will stop jumping in to "help" with crap like this. Pick an issue, and there's ammo aplenty to go at him with, so why do we need this?

It's like trying to get our hands on uranium cause we have an anthill problem, seriously.

[ConHog]

Yes, please, by all means, make us all look like more of a set of loons, that's great. I'm certain it won't be used as ammo against us. Give it up, it's not getting proven, it's not getting addressed and the rules are stacked against us on this, but we can beat Obama, if the idiots will stop jumping in to "help" with crap like this. Pick an issue, and there's ammo aplenty to go at him with, so why do we need this?

It's like trying to get our hands on uranium cause we have an anthill problem, seriously.

Funny thing, my favorite college football team fired a football coach in 2007 and some of the fans were acting just like some of these birthers. They ignored legitimate reasons for wanting the coach fired (namely a TERRIBLE record) and went on a rampage trying to prove the guy was abusing players and cheating on his wife and texting during games and all sorts of shit that just didn't matter.

In the end, he was fired because of his record and Arkansas Razorback fans in general winded up looking stupid because of the antics of a few.

Guess it's just human nature that some can't think.

[Missileman]

and this phrase

by being born abroad to U.S. citizen-parents

means all this BS about he was born in Kenya is just that BS.

Now, I certainly would be interested in knowing if he committed fraud when it came to his college applications, but that has ZERO to do with his eligibility as President.

IIRC, there were some things that affected mom's ability to pass citizenship to him if he was born outside the U.S.(based on the law at that time) It's that inability that makes it an issue if he were actually born in Kenya.

[ConHog]

IIRC, there were some things that affected mom's ability to pass citizenship to him if he was born outside the U.S.(based on the law at that time) It's that inability that makes it an issue if he were actually born in Kenya.

It seems like some were saying since she wasn't 18 at the time he wouldn't get natural citizenship, but I'll be damned if I can find that anywhere in the COTUS or any other legal document.

[gabosaurus]

Where were the ignorant jackass "birthers" during the 2008 elections? You can't tell me that an entire election year cycle went by without someone bringing up or investigating the fact that Obama was "not a natural born citizen?"
No, this is now what it always has been -- desperate dick in the dirt groveling by the same set of fools who came up with the "swift boat" malarkey during the 2004 election campaign (also disproven).
Like Conhog said, further advancing the "birther" horseshit only takes away from the real issues of the campaign. But perhaps the rotgut addled nutcases who keep bringing up the birther issue aren't smart enough to come up with real issues.

[ConHog]

Where were the ignorant jackass "birthers" during the 2008 elections? You can't tell me that an entire election year cycle went by without someone bringing up or investigating the fact that Obama was "not a natural born citizen?"
No, this is now what it always has been -- desperate dick in the dirt groveling by the same set of fools who came up with the "swift boat" malarkey during the 2004 election campaign (also disproven).
Like Conhog said, further advancing the "birther" horseshit only takes away from the real issues of the campaign. But perhaps the rotgut addled nutcases who keep bringing up the birther issue aren't smart enough to come up with real issues.

Gabby i love it when we come together

[logroller]

We're not talking about his citizenship; we're talking about 'natural born citizen' and what that means.

The question would be: "Is kenya " within the dominions and allegiance of the United States...*"

* Sandf. at 663, Leg.Obs. at 250

Disagree. The question is, who has the authority to determine whether anyone is born within the dominions and allegiance of the United States?
A) one's grandmother
B) one's biographer
C) news reporters
D) one's State of birth

[Peach]

Disagree. The question is, who has the authority to determine whether anyone is born within the dominions and allegiance of the United States?
A) one's grandmother
B) one's biographer
C) news reporters
D) one's State of birth

There actually was a question about McCain, he is "natural born" only by an Act of Congress, never an Amendment to the Constitution. Unemployment should be a topic, not the tired "born in Kenya" line. The birthers have yet to produce a passport for S. Ann Dunham, and the State of Hawaii confirms Obama was born there, enough is enough.

Answer to question: D.

[tailfins]

Where were the ignorant jackass "birthers" during the 2008 elections? You can't tell me that an entire election year cycle went by without someone bringing up or investigating the fact that Obama was "not a natural born citizen?"
No, this is now what it always has been -- desperate dick in the dirt groveling by the same set of fools who came up with the "swift boat" malarkey during the 2004 election campaign (also disproven).
Like Conhog said, further advancing the "birther" horseshit only takes away from the real issues of the campaign. But perhaps the rotgut addled nutcases who keep bringing up the birther issue aren't smart enough to come up with real issues.

Swift boating worked, birtherism didn't. It's just politics. Why are you annoyed at one side and not the other? Let me refresh your memory with the Bush Killian Documents Controversy. More recently there's the Zimmerman tape doctoring. Actually what the left does is worse. On the right, it's just wild people speculating. On the left, it's deliberate deception.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killian_documents_controversy

[Gator Monroe]

After California becomes the Nations first "Sanctuary State" Arizona wants to create a Illegal & Liberal/Minority Friendly NEW State in its South called "Baja Arizona".

[Missileman]

Where were the ignorant jackass "birthers" during the 2008 elections? You can't tell me that an entire election year cycle went by without someone bringing up or investigating the fact that Obama was "not a natural born citizen?"
No, this is now what it always has been -- desperate dick in the dirt groveling by the same set of fools who came up with the "swift boat" malarkey during the 2004 election campaign (also disproven).
Like Conhog said, further advancing the "birther" horseshit only takes away from the real issues of the campaign. But perhaps the rotgut addled nutcases who keep bringing up the birther issue aren't smart enough to come up with real issues.

I don't drink, bitch!

The question HAS been raised since 2008 and before, and questions were met and are still being met with stonewalling. Haven't seen you calling for a clearing of the air.

There ARE a myriad of reasons why the jackass in the Whitehouse doesn't belong there. If he was actually born in Kenya and is actually inelligible all those reasons are moot. At that point, he could be the greatest president of all time, but would still need to go.

[ConHog]

I don't drink, bitch!

The question HAS been raised since 2008 and before, and questions were met and are still being met with stonewalling. Haven't seen you calling for a clearing of the air.

There ARE a myriad of reasons why the jackass in the Whitehouse doesn't belong there. If he was actually born in Kenya and is actually inelligible all those reasons are moot. At that point, he could be the greatest president of all time, but would still need to go.

Already been pointed out that being born in Kenya is NOT a disqualifier in and of itself.

[Missileman]

Already been pointed out that being born in Kenya is NOT a disqualifier in and of itself.

It is according to the law as it stood when Obama was born.

From: http://urbanlegends.about.com/od/barackobama/a/obama_citizen.htm


...according to the law on the books at the time of his birth, which falls between "December 24, 1952 to November 13, 1986?
Presidential office requires a natural-born citizen if the child was not born to two U.S. citizen parents, which of course is what exempts John McCain though he was born in the Panama Canal. US Law very clearly stipulates: ".If only one parent was a U.S. citizen at the time of your birth, that parent must have resided in the United States for at least ten years, at least five of which had to be after the age of 16." Barack Obama's father was not a U.S. citizen and Obama's mother was only 18 when Obama was born, which means though she had been a U.S. citizen for 10 years, (or citizen perhaps because of Hawai'i being a territory) the mother fails the test for being so for at least 5 years **prior to** Barack Obama's birth, but *after* age 16. It doesn't matter *after*. In essence, she was not old enough to qualify her son for automatic U.S. citizenship. At most, there were only 2 years elapsed since his mother turned 16 at the time of Barack Obama's birth when she was 18 in Hawai'i. His mother would have needed to have been 16+5= 21 years old, at the time of Barack Obama's birth for him to have been a natural-born citizen. As aformentioned, she was a young college student at the time and was not. Barack Obama was already 3 years old at that time his mother would have needed to have waited to have him as the only U.S. Cizen parent. Obama instead should have been naturalized, but even then, that would still disqualify him from holding the office.

Snopes and others don't dispute that this was the law at the time, they only claim he was born in Hawaii so the law doesn't apply.

[ConHog]

It is according to the law as it stood when Obama was born.

From: http://urbanlegends.about.com/od/barackobama/a/obama_citizen.htm



Snopes and others don't dispute that this was the law at the time, they only claim he was born in Hawaii so the law doesn't apply.

Please post the law, not just someone stating there is a law.

[Missileman]

Please post the law, not just someone stating there is a law.

Take a deep breath...now hold it!

[Toro]

If you are born in the United States, you are a natural born citizen.

The courts have repeatedly ruled this way, going back to Wok Kim Ark.

It's done. Let it go.

This birfer shit does nothing but help Obama because it makes his opponents look like fools.

[ConHog]

If you are born in the United States, you are a natural born citizen.

The courts have repeatedly ruled this way, going back to Wok Kim Ark.

It's done. Let it go.

This birfer shit does nothing but help Obama because it makes his opponents look like fools.

Pure deflection that has been working quite nicely.

[Missileman]

If you are born in the United States, you are a natural born citizen.

The courts have repeatedly ruled this way, going back to Wok Kim Ark.

It's done. Let it go.

This birfer shit does nothing but help Obama because it makes his opponents look like fools.

If he was born in Hawaii, he is a natural born citizen. If he was born in Kenya, per the law at that time, he is not, even though his mother was a citizen.

Foolish to me would be to totally disregard the eyewitness acounts of his paternal family members and the biographies that say Obama was born in Kenya without more solid proof than an obviously photoshopped document.

[logroller]

It is according to the law as it stood when Obama was born.

From: http://urbanlegends.about.com/od/barackobama/a/obama_citizen.htm



Snopes and others don't dispute that this was the law at the time, they only claim he was born in Hawaii so the law doesn't apply.
The law then, as now, is that the States themselves are the principal authority on birth records within their respective jurisdiction. Whatever doubt you harbor is moot; Obama is, for all intents and purposes, a natural born citizen of the United States.

[ConHog]

If he was born in Hawaii, he is a natural born citizen. If he was born in Kenya, per the law at that time, he is not, even though his mother was a citizen.

Foolish to me would be to totally disregard the eyewitness acounts of his paternal family members and the biographies that say Obama was born in Kenya without more solid proof than an obviously photoshopped document.

I'll ask again, please cite the law that you claim says Obama's mother wasn't able to have a natural born US citizen as a child when BO was born.

Come on MM , show us this law.

[logroller]

If he was born in Hawaii, he is a natural born citizen. If he was born in Kenya, per the law at that time, he is not, even though his mother was a citizen.

Foolish to me would be to totally disregard the eyewitness acounts of his paternal family members and the biographies that say Obama was born in Kenya without more solid proof than an obviously photoshopped document.

Foolish to me is to take the word of some biographer or foreigner over the authority of officials from the state of record. I've yet to see any photostatic forgery such as the one you describe. The only ones I've seen were official reproductions--which carry the full force of law-- including establishing natural born citizenship. You do understand that, right?

[Missileman]

I'll ask again, please cite the law that you claim says Obama's mother wasn't able to have a natural born US citizen as a child when BO was born.

Come on MM , show us this law.

I've posted a link that quotes the law. If that isn't good enough for you, look it up yourself.

[Missileman]

Foolish to me is to take the word of some biographer or foreigner over the authority of officials from the state of record. I've yet to see any photostatic forgery such as the one you describe. The only ones I've seen were official reproductions--which carry the full force of law-- including establishing natural born citizenship. You do understand that, right?

The green BC that they posted is obviously photoshopped...just look at the damned thing.

So lets say you have a friend who works at the DMV and he issues you a fake driver's license. Are you saying you're now legal because the fake was issued by the state?

[logroller]

The green BC that they posted is obviously photoshopped...just look at the damned thing.

So lets say you have a friend who works at the DMV and he issues you a fake driver's license. Are you saying you're now legal because the fake was issued by the state?

Yes. If the state says I'm legal, than I am. They have the legal authority to proclaim as such. If I went into witness protection and they issued me a new identity; legally, that is my identity. Again, that's in accordance with the law; but the natural born citizen thing is the law too. You can't demand one and reject the other. They're both the law, and they both apply.

[Missileman]

Yes. If the state says I'm legal, than I am. They have the legal authority to proclaim as such. If I went into witness protection and they issued me a new identity; legally, that is my identity. Again, that's in accordance with the law; but the natural born citizen thing is the law too. You can't demand one and reject the other. They're both the law, and they both apply.

We're not talking about an identity change in connection with witness relocation, we're talking about your bud issuing you a fraudulent driver's license. You need to cite some case law that fraudulent documents are legal just because they're issued by an agent of the state.

[Toro]

If he was born in Hawaii, he is a natural born citizen. If he was born in Kenya, per the law at that time, he is not, even though his mother was a citizen.

Foolish to me would be to totally disregard the eyewitness acounts of his paternal family members and the biographies that say Obama was born in Kenya without more solid proof than an obviously photoshopped document.

It's completely foolish for you to ignore what the state of Hawaii has repeatedly stated, and that his birth was announced in the Honolulu newspaper.

http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/dailypix/2008/Nov/09/hawaii811090361V3_b.jpg

It's also foolish to believe nutters with an agenda. It makes conservatives look completely whacked.

[Missileman]

It's completely foolish for you to ignore what the state of Hawaii has repeatedly stated, and that his birth was announced in the Honolulu newspaper.

http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/dailypix/2008/Nov/09/hawaii811090361V3_b.jpg

It's also foolish to believe nutters with an agenda. It makes conservatives look completely whacked.

Answer this question then in a logical manner: If a valid BC exists in the book, why resort to a photoshopped document?

[logroller]

We're not talking about an identity change in connection with witness relocation, we're talking about your bud issuing you a fraudulent driver's license. You need to cite some case law that fraudulent documents are legal just because they're issued by an agent of the state.
Youre the one claiming fraud; shouldn't you show case law. What I'm talking about is administrative law. I've cited the laws which apply to the Obama case. That in cases of discrepancy, the administrative authority rules upon the issue. The Hawaiian officials have done so; so that's legally binding. The judiciary challenges were dismissed for "lack of standing""lack of cogent legal reasoning.""moot""frivolous and Not worthy of discussion"

It's one thing to back a losing horse; quite another to beat a dead one!

Here's a list of the cases:
http://tesibria.typepad.com/whats_your_evidence/BIRTHER%20CASE%20LIST.pdf

[Missileman]

Youre the one claiming fraud; shouldn't you show case law.

You're the one who claimed that a fraudulent document is legal if it's issued by the government...YOU should be the one to provide case law that supports that position.

[logroller]

You're the one who claimed that a fraudulent document is legal if it's issued by the government...YOU should be the one to provide case law that supports that position.
I never said any such thing. You're the one claiming fraud, not I. I said if government issues it, it's legal. Ive shown that it is; supported by the laws, official statements and repeated dismissals by courts. You rely on an urban legends website. It's just pitiful.

[Missileman]

I never said any such thing.

You certainly did in post 35

All I did was quote the immigration rules from Obama's birth date from that site. I'm not relying on it for anything other than that. If you'd like I can post links to a dozen immigration law sites that say the SAME EXACT thing about the immigration law.

[Missileman]

delete: duplicate

[Toro]

Answer this question then in a logical manner: If a valid BC exists in the book, why resort to a photoshopped document?

It's not photoshopped.

[Missileman]

It's not photoshopped.

There's more than one indicator on that document that certainly makes it highly likely it was.

[logroller]

You certainly did in post 35

All I did was quote the immigration rules from Obama's birth date from that site. I'm not relying on it for anything other than that. If you'd like I can post links to a dozen immigration law sites that say the SAME EXACT thing about the immigration law.
I said the license would be legal; and it would. If one were to prove that it was fraudulently obtained, then the state could/would revoke it. Barring that, it's valid. To do otherwise would be akin to a witch hunt.

Prima facie: The official certification from the state of Hawaii is valid for all intents and purposes. Have you any case law refuting that?

[Missileman]

I said the license would be legal; and it would. If one were to prove that it was fraudulently obtained, then the state could/would revoke it. Barring that, it's valid. To do otherwise would be akin to a witch hunt.

Prima facie: The official certification from the state of Hawaii is valid for all intents and purposes. Have you any case law refuting that?

An official copy of a fraudulent document is still a fraudulent document. A government copier doesn't magically turn false info into true info.

A fake license given to you by your friend in the DMV would be legal? You now have me doubting whether you know what legal is.

[ConHog]

I said the license would be legal; and it would. If one were to prove that it was fraudulently obtained, then the state could/would revoke it. Barring that, it's valid. To do otherwise would be akin to a witch hunt.

Prima facie: The official certification from the state of Hawaii is valid for all intents and purposes. Have you any case law refuting that?

No, of course he doesn't. He's just insane.

[logroller]

An official copy of a fraudulent document is still a fraudulent document. A government copier doesn't magically turn false info into true info.

A fake license given to you by your friend in the DMV would be legal? You now have me doubting whether you know what legal is.
The birth cert states that it serves as prima facie evidence-- meanin it's assumed true. Even if it were to possess the characteristics you claim; Hawaiian law states officials can make the determination upon its validity. Even if it was altered, the law states how such matters are resolved. Show me material evidence of some law which was broken, because even if it were altered, it's been verified in accordance with law--- so it's legal.
As for the ID thing; it would still have to be proven that it was false-- it's assumed valid on its face. Because licenses are issued by the state under the authority of law.

[gabosaurus]

IS MITT ROMNEY A UNICORN?
Over 18,000 have petitioned demanding that Mitt Romney release his birth certificate to prove that he is not a unicorn. The Romney camp has refused to reply, further heightening suspicion.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/mitt-romney-a-unicorn-fighting-birthers-with-their-own-ploy/2012/05/29/gJQAvNDRzU_story.html?hpid=z2

[tailfins]

IS MITT ROMNEY A UNICORN?
Over 18,000 have petitioned demanding that Mitt Romney release his birth certificate to prove that he is not a unicorn. The Romney camp has refused to reply, further heightening suspicion.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/mitt-romney-a-unicorn-fighting-birthers-with-their-own-ploy/2012/05/29/gJQAvNDRzU_story.html?hpid=z2

Obama may have an "Elizabeth Warren" problem. He may have gotten university benefits claiming foreign student status.

[logroller]

Obama may have an "Elizabeth Warren" problem. He may have gotten university benefits claiming foreign student status.

Benefits from whom, Harvard Endowment?