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View Full Version : NDAA: No Detaining Americans, Says Federal Judge



revelarts
05-22-2012, 09:47 AM
the plaintiffs in the case and their legal friends include those on the left and right.

including but not limited to:

Chris Hedges,
Norm Chomsky,
Cornel West,
Alexa O’Brien
Daniel Ellsberg,
Iceland parliamentarian Birgitta Jonsdottir
Kai Wargalla, co-founder of Occupy London
NAOMI WOLF
the ACLU
VIRGINIA STATE DELEGATE BOB MARSHALL,
VIRGINIA STATE SENATOR DICK BLACK,
DOWNSIZE DC FOUNDATION,
DOWNSIZEDC.ORG, INC.,
U.S. JUSTICE FOUNDATION,
INSTITUTE ON THE CONSTITUTION,
GUN OWNERS FOUNDATION,
GUN OWNERS OF AMERICA,INC.,
THE LINCOLN INSTITUTE FOR RESEARCH AND EDUCATION,
THE WESTERN CENTER FOR JOURNALISM,
CONSERVATIVE LEGAL DEFENSE AND EDUCATION FUND,
U.S. BORDER CONTROL,
RESTORING LIBERTY ACTIONCOMMITTEE,
TENTH AMENDMENT CENTER,
CENTER FOR MEDIA AND DEMOCRACY,
BILL OF RIGHTS DEFENSE COMMITTEE,
PASTOR CHUCK BALDWIN,
PROFESSOR JEROME AUMENTE,
THE CONSTITUTION PARTY NATIONAL COMMITTEE

http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/constitution/item/11430-ndaa-no-detaining-americans-allowed-says-federal-judge

....The court offered the government multiple opportunities to demonstrate that the plaintiffs did not have standing, but the government refused to do so despite having been informed in advance of the nature of the plaintiffs’ testimony. Asked repeatedly if the plaintiffs’ fears of being detained under the NDAA were well founded, the government’s attorney refused to answer, saying he was “not authorized to make specific recommendations regarding specific people.” Noted Forrest: It must be said that it would have been a rather simple matter for the Government to have stated that as to these plaintiffs and the conduct as to which they would testify, that Section 1021 did not and would not apply, if indeed it did or would not. That could have eliminated the standing of these plaintiffs and their claims of irreparable harm. Failure to be able to make such a representation given the prior notice of the activities at issue requires this Court to assume that, in fact, the Government takes the position that a wide swath of expressive and associational conduct is in fact encompassed by Section 1021.

As a result, Forrest found that “plaintiffs have stated a more than plausible claim that the statute inappropriately encroaches on their rights under the First Amendment.”

She also found that the plaintiffs’ challenge to the law on the basis that it violates their Fifth Amendment right to due process was likely to succeed. Due process, she observed, “requires that individuals be able to understand what conduct might cause him or her to run afoul of” the law. “Unfortunately,” she continued, “there are a number of terms [in Section 1021] that are sufficiently vague that no ordinary citizen can reliably define such conduct.” For instance, who is a “covered person” under the statute? What does the term “associated forces” mean? And what does the law mean when it threatens those who “substantially” or “directly” “support” these “associated forces” or al-Qaeda or the Taliban?

Again the court gave the government every opportunity to advance specific arguments to counter the plaintiffs’ claims, and again the government failed to do so. “The Government was unable to define precisely what ‘direct’ or ‘substantial’ ‘support’ means,” observed Forrest. “Thus,” she concluded, “an individual could run the risk of substantially supporting or directly supporting an associated force without even being aware that he or she was doing so.”

The law’s vagueness also led Forrest to reject the Obama administration’s argument that it was a mere restatement of the detention powers already granted under the AUMF. The 2001 law, she pointed out, was quite specific as to what individuals and activities it covered and what its terms mean, while the NDAA is much broader in scope and so vague in its definitions that even the government can’t explain exactly which persons or activities it covers. Wrote Forrest: “Since this Court is not convinced that Section 1021 is simply a ‘reaffirmation’ of the AUMF, and since the Government has authorized detention for violations of Section 1021, plaintiffs here can reasonably assume that Government officials will actually undertake the detention authorized by the statute,” adding weight to their claims of standing to sue.

Moreover, she remarked, “if the Government’s argument is to be credited in terms of its belief as to the impact of the legislation — which is nil — then the issuance of an injunction should have absolutely no impact on any Governmental activities at all.” That the administration fought the lawsuit, therefore, ought to be proof positive that the NDAA goes far beyond the AUMF.

Further proof may be found in Obama’s NDAA signing statement, in which he stated that his “Administration will not authorize the indefinite military detention without trial of American citizens,” which makes it clear that such detention is permitted by the law and may be authorized by future administrations. The administration argued that the statement rendered the plaintiffs’ case moot, but Forrest averred in a footnote: “The Signing Statement does not eliminate the reasonable fear of future government harm that is likely to occur — i.e., the irreparable injury at issue here.”


Glen Greenwald at salon.com give another review
Federal court enjoins NDAA - Glenn Greenwald - Salon.com (http://www.salon.com/2012/05/16/federal_court_enjoins_ndaa/)

there were some that denied that the NDAA could evah evah be read this way but Obama, Romney, the ACLU, many other law scholars and this Court see that there is CLEARLY A HUGE PROBLEM with this law. It gives a president the right to toss people in jail without due process indefinitely.
Heck even the Daily Show and Corbertt Report got it. the presidency has become a dictatorship, the congress has handed nearly all it's power to the executive.
Panetta recently told congress that the executive branch would "inform congress" when the president decided to go to war.
The President says he has the right to kill Americans without trial , if he and his secret panel decide it's for the good of the country and has done it. The NDAA just codified the power to toss in jail without a trial, indefinitely. These are the powers of a dictator, as shocking and as crazy as it may seem, we are there. This Judge is the 1st in a long time to put up a "check and balance" to the drunken executive. Lil denials and "..but it's not really like that..." don't cut it anymore. It IS like that. We are there. Thank God the for the lawsuit and Judges ruling throwing a sandbag against the flood. May their tribe increase.

Romney NDAA "if I were president i would not abuse this power".
Mitt Romney, Rand Paul & NDAA The National Defence Authorization ACT (Enabling Act) - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1XwKjnOaqE)

Daily show on NDAA
Jon Stewart on NDAA and Signing Statement • VideoSift: Online Video *Quality Control (http://videosift.com/video/Jon-Stewart-on-NDAA-and-Signing-Statement)

Colbert on NDAA
The Word - Catch 2012 - The Colbert Report - 2012-05-01 - Video Clip | Comedy Central (http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/405274/january-05-2012/the-word---catch-2012)


On Monday, prominent legal scholar Jonathan Turley denounced NDAA 2012, which was signed into law by Barack Obama on Dec. 31, 2011, as "one of the greatest rollbacks of civil liberties in the history of our country."[1] -- In his piece, which the London Guardian asked to reprint, Turley called Obama's claim that he signed the bill to keep funding for U.S. troops "insulting. You do not 'support our troops' by denying the principles for which they are fighting. They are not fighting to consolidate authoritarian powers in the president." -- As for the president's reassurance that he will not use the powers the law accords to him, Turley said that "the insistence that you do not intend to use authoritarian powers does not alter the fact that you just signed an authoritarian measure. It is not the use but the right to use such powers that defines authoritarian systems." --
COMMENTARY: Jonathan Turley denounces NDAA as 'historic assault on liberty' (http://www.ufppc.org/us-a-world-news-mainmenu-35/10804-commentary-jonathan-turley-denounces-ndaa-as-historic-assault-on-liberty.html)

ConHog
05-22-2012, 11:08 AM
I find it odd that those on the left who were screaming that Bush acted like a dictator are strangely silent now that Obama has gone even further.

Obama truly wants to be a King. Not just with his power grabbing, but look at the overall lifestyle. Multiple expensive vacations, multiple visits by other royalty (read celebrities) to the castle.

It's shocking how silently many are taking it.

And yes Rev I'm absolutely agreeing with you that our constitutional rights should remain absolute even in the face of terrorism. I have never said differently, I just disagree whether some of the things you claim are violations are in fact violations. Clearly being thrown in prison without trial is a violation.

revelarts
05-22-2012, 11:57 AM
...

And yes Rev I'm absolutely agreeing with you that our constitutional rights should remain absolute even in the face of terrorism. I have never said differently, I just disagree whether some of the things you claim are violations are in fact violations. Clearly being thrown in prison without trial is a violation.

:salute:

Thunderknuckles
05-22-2012, 01:56 PM
I've corrected this previously. This does not allow for indefinite jail/detention without a trial.

Here is the entire thing - http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?c112:2:./temp/~c112FPxAEK:: (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?c112:2:./temp/%7Ec112FPxAEK::)



Of course the President can just sidestep all that crap by declaring you an imminent threat to the country and have you legally assassinated.

jimnyc
05-22-2012, 01:57 PM
Of course the President can just sidestep all that crap by declaring you an imminent threat to the country and have you legally assassinated.

True, true... I deleted my post while you were replying as I have found multiple copies of the NDAA and want to ensure my reading is up to date!

jimnyc
05-22-2012, 02:05 PM
I'd like to add, if you download the PDF and look through all of the bill, and the requirements, it states this:


(1) UNITED STATES CITIZENS- The requirement to detain a person in military custody under this section does not extend to citizens of the United States.

So while I suppose one could say "until the end of hostilities" could mean indefinite, it does in fact exclude US citizens.

jimnyc
05-22-2012, 02:08 PM
Not sure if this link will work, but further wording:


(e) Authorities- Nothing in this section shall be construed to affect existing law or authorities, relating to the detention of United States citizens, lawful resident aliens of the United States or any other persons who are captured or arrested in the United States.

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?c112:2:./temp/~c112ve4yYc:e548990:

revelarts
05-22-2012, 02:12 PM
I'd like to add, if you download the PDF and look through all of the bill, and the requirements, it states this:



So while I suppose one could say "until the end of hostilities" could mean indefinite, it does in fact exclude US citizens.

So the Judge is Wrong and all of the plantiffs just missed that. Jim wake up man. C'mon. smell the coffee buddy.
the judge gave the gov't lawyers many chances to answer those questions and they could not say that it didn't include Americans and that it didn't mean indefinite.
Obama and Romney Say "well the law might say i can, but i won't... promise"
read the articles and the judges ruling.

why are you having a problem with the facts here?

revelarts
05-22-2012, 02:15 PM
Hmmm
i'm reminded that so many other time you guys have told me things like .
"Well the laws the law, live with it until someone takes it to court prosecutes or overturns it."
ok well here we have exactly that. what gives?

jimnyc
05-22-2012, 02:24 PM
So the Judge is Wrong and all of the plantiffs just missed that. Jim wake up man. C'mon. smell the coffee buddy.
the judge gave the gov't lawyers many chances to answer those questions and they could not say that it didn't include Americans and that it didn't mean indefinite.
Obama and Romney Say "well the law might say i can, but i won't... promise"
read the articles and the judges ruling.

why are you having a problem with the facts here?

I never stated that. I simply posted that the NDAA does not allow for the "indefinite detention", otherwise it would be worded as such. Maybe they purposely worded it in a vague manner to pass it through, knowing that the 'end of hostilities' could be stretched to be indefinitely aka forever. Not sure I like the wording either, but it's not as simple as you state. And it also makes it clear that it doesn't apply to US citizens and/or legal US aliens.

Government lawyers not replying is not an admission that they are pulling the wool over anyone's eyes. It doesn't mean anything, other than they didn't reply. While a non-reply can get things tossed out on such grounds, it does not mean that any layman's interpretation of the wording is now whatever they want to call it. I also think that the coding is very clear that US citizens don't apply.

jimnyc
05-22-2012, 02:33 PM
Btw, this is just a preliminary injunction and will likely now go to a higher court. With a few keystrokes and actually answering next time, this will be passed anyway. And as the article states, much ado about nothing anyway as this is merely an extension of the AUMF from 2001, which is just worded better.

So long as this is not used against American citizens, I've got no problem with it. I would be happier though, if they had a clearer detention limit, and military court after that point. If it's a "bad person", their detention will continue after trial most likely anyway, which I would also be cool with.

jimnyc
05-22-2012, 02:34 PM
Hmmm
i'm reminded that so many other time you guys have told me things like .
"Well the laws the law, live with it until someone takes it to court prosecutes or overturns it."
ok well here we have exactly that. what gives?

Oh, I see what you did here! :lol:

You are correct though, this is now been looked at by the courts and a fair decision laid down. It should be respected fully until the government fixes what is wrong or has an appeal heard. I've got no problem having 1021 axed on this courts ruling. The government sounds very ill prepared and should have responded.

ConHog
05-22-2012, 02:43 PM
Not sure if this link will work, but further wording:



http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?c112:2:./temp/~c112ve4yYc:e548990:

I think they "corrected" that by just taking away citizenship from any suspected terrorists. LOL

revelarts
05-22-2012, 03:12 PM
this is just interesting
<iframe width="640" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/4FY-sOE3mJY" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

ConHog
05-22-2012, 03:15 PM
this is just interesting
<iframe width="640" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/4FY-sOE3mJY" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Interesting is right.

We think this law is draconian , and the Chinese people are all thinking "hell yeah, we won't just get shot in the fucking head if the government declares us enemies anymore."

Good point Rev.

revelarts
05-24-2012, 11:57 AM
Related NDAA news
there was an amendemnt proposed by Smith -D- and Amash -R- that would have made it prefectly Clear that Americans COULD NOT be held without trial. it was voted Down.
Hmmm, whats the problem here? Does the congress want the prez to have power to throw citizens into military jails without trail.
the answer is yes. by that vote.
200 something to 100 something.

it's a new Amerika baby.

revelarts
05-24-2012, 11:58 AM
text of amendment

AMENDMENT TO THE RULES COMMITTEE PRINT
OF H.R. 4310
OFFERED BY MR. SMITH OF WASHINGTON
At the end of subtitle D of title X, add the following
new section:
1 SEC. 1044. DISPOSITION OF COVERED PERSONS DETAINED
2 IN THE UNITED STATES PURSUANT TO THE
3 AUTHORIZATION FOR USE OF MILITARY
4 FORCE.
5 (a) SHORT TITLE.—This section may be cited as the
6 ‘‘Due Process and Military Detention Amendments Act’’.
7 (b) DISPOSITION.—Section 1021 of the National De8
fense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2012 is amend9
ed—
10 (1) in subsection (c), by striking ‘‘The disposi11
tion’’ and inserting ‘‘Except as provided in sub12
section (g), the disposition’’; and
13 (2) by adding at the end the following new sub14
sections:
15 ‘‘(g) DISPOSITION OF PERSONS DETAINED IN THE
16 UNITED STATES.—
17 ‘‘(1) PERSONS DETAINED PURSUANT TO THE
18 AUTHORIZATION FOR USE OF MILITARY FORCE OR
VerDate Nov 24 2008 14:23 May 14, 2012 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00001 Fmt 6652 Sfmt 6201 C:\DOCUMENTS AND SETTINGS\PKBAYER\APPLICATION DATA\SOFTQUAD\XMETAL\5
May 14, 2012 (2:23 p.m.)
F:\PKB\AS\NDA13\FLR-112H4192_001.XML
f:\VHLC\051412\051412.189.xml (527296|2)
2
1 THE FISCAL YEAR 2012 OR 2013 NATIONAL DE2
FENSE AUTHORIZATION ACTS.—In the case of a cov3
ered person who is detained in the United States, or
4 a territory or possession of the United States, pursu5
ant to the Authorization for Use of Military Force,
6 this Act, or the National Defense Authorization Act
7 for Fiscal Year 2013, disposition under the law of
8 war shall occur immediately upon the person coming
9 into custody of the Federal Government and shall
10 only mean the immediate transfer of the person for
11 trial and proceedings by a court established under
12 Article III of the Constitution of the United States
13 or by an appropriate State court. Such trial and pro14
ceedings shall have all the due process as provided
15 for under the Constitution of the United States.
16 ‘‘(2) PROHIBITION ON TRANSFER TO MILITARY
17 CUSTODY.—No person detained, captured, or ar18
rested in the United States, or a territory or posses19
sion of the United States, may be transferred to the
20 custody of the Armed Forces for detention under the
21 Authorization for Use of Military Force, this Act, or
22 the National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal
23 Year 2013.
24 ‘‘(h) RULE OF CONSTRUCTION.—This section shall
25 not be construed to authorize the detention of a person
VerDate Nov 24 2008 14:23 May 14, 2012 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00002 Fmt 6652 Sfmt 6201 C:\DOCUMENTS AND SETTINGS\PKBAYER\APPLICATION DATA\SOFTQUAD\XMETAL\5
May 14, 2012 (2:23 p.m.)
F:\PKB\AS\NDA13\FLR-112H4192_001.XML
f:\VHLC\051412\051412.189.xml (527296|2)
3
1 within the United States, or a territory or possession of
2 the United States, under the Authorization for Use of
3 Military Force, this Act, or the National Defense Author4
ization Act for Fiscal Year 2013.’’.
5 (c) REPEAL OF REQUIREMENT FOR MILITARY CUS6
TODY.—
7 (1) REPEAL.—Section 1022 of the National
8 Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2012 is
9 hereby repealed.
10 (2) CONFORMING AMENDMENT.—Section
11 1029(b) of such Act is amended by striking ‘‘applies
12 to’’ and all that follows through ‘‘any other person’’
13 and inserting ‘‘applies to any person’’.



kinda klugee copy sorry.


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revelarts
06-02-2012, 03:38 PM
Separation of powers to the rescue not so fast.
I expected Obama and the executive branch to push back but not this.

They are Claiming that the Judges ruling ONLY applies to those named in the suit.
Bushbama strikes again.
...and the constitutions is down and bleeding again after having started to stagger to it's feet.

Is this serious enough for folks? Am i blowing this out of proportion?
is this as important as Travon Zimmerman or homosexual marriages or Black Panthers, I wonder?

http://www.activistpost.com/2012/05/government-defies-federal-judge-on-ndaa.html

...The judge then granted her temporary injunction:

As set forth above, this Court has found that plaintiffs have shown a likelihood of success on the merits regarding their constitutional claim and it therefore has a responsibility to insure that the public's constitutional rights are protected.

Accordingly, this Court finds that the public interest is best served by the issuance of the preliminary relief recited herein.

This should be the end of it. This landmark case should be a victory for Americans, the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. The judge clearly states “the public’s constitutional rights” and “the public interest.” Hey, I’m a part of the public, so I’m protected now!

Not so fast. Our tyrannical government, in one sentence, has chosen to defy a ruling by a federal judge.

The government construes this Court’s Order as applying only as to the named plaintiffs in this suit.

Just when you want to believe there are good people in the highest levels of our federal government, statements like this bring you back to reality. The government continued:

Although the Order fails to comply with Fed. R. Civ. P. 58, and the concluding paragraph of the Order is not, on its face, clear as to whom the injunction benefits, the government reads it in light of the well-established principle that courts 'neither want nor need to provide relief to nonparties when a narrower remedy will fully protect the litigants'

Excuse me? Let’s very quickly compare Federal District Court Judge Katherine Forrest’s Order:

Accordingly, this Court finds that the public interest is best served by the issuance of the preliminary relief recited herein.

With the government’s response:

The government construes this Court’s Order as applying only as to the named plaintiffs in this suit.

The Judge said her order was to protect the public interest. No informed human being could read it otherwise. Yet, according to the government, they can still detain you because you are not a named plaintiff. Our government is so entwined in a power grab, they will stop at nothing, even twisting court orders, to strip us of our Constitutional rights.

The government defied the court, the Constitution, and our Founding Fathers. ....
gov't memo (http://www.lawfareblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/recon-motion.pdf)

what the H3LL?