Islamic Veil

[abso]

http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/3549/islamicveil.jpg

[Trigg]

The catholic church doesn't have a police force that forces people to wear certain clothing.

I could post all day about Saudi Arabia and their prevention of vice and promotion of virtue squad.

[abso]

and the islamic world doesn't have people in street insulting the catholic church for their uniforms :D

and you are twisting the subject, because what happens in saudia doesn't have anything to do with people all over the world insulting muslims for their clothes !!!, the muslims in USA and in Europe have no one to force them to wear the veil, yet they choose to wear it, and they get insulted for wearing it, so what does that have to do with what happens in saudia !!!

instead of saying that you condemn insulting people for their choice of clothes you are talking about a complete different thing !!!

so do you condemn insulting muslims for their free choice of clothes or not ??

[Thunderknuckles]

I believe this is called Discrimination by many.

I like to call it Human Nature as this is usually what happens when people of the same culture purposely kill thousands of innocent people from another culture.

[Abbey Marie]

Abso, you don't have a clue what it means to be "culturally forced" into certain behaviors. Of course as a Muslim male you would think/claim these women are happily donning their restrictive, shapeless, dehumanizing attire. No one is buying it.

The day the Catholic church demands that all Catholic women wear habits, and have the authority to physically punish those who refuse, you can talk.

[ConHog]

and the islamic world doesn't have people in street insulting the catholic church for their uniforms :D

and you are twisting the subject, because what happens in saudia doesn't have anything to do with people all over the world insulting muslims for their clothes !!!, the muslims in USA and in Europe have no one to force them to wear the veil, yet they choose to wear it, and they get insulted for wearing it, so what does that have to do with what happens in saudia !!!

instead of saying that you condemn insulting people for their choice of clothes you are talking about a complete different thing !!!

so do you condemn insulting muslims for their free choice of clothes or not ??

Indeed b/c just because the Holy Cities are in Saudi, doesn't mean the entire Muslim looks to Saudi Arabia or anything.

What happens in Rome has no effect on Catholics worldwide either.

[jimnyc]

and the islamic world doesn't have people in street insulting the catholic church for their uniforms :D

and you are twisting the subject, because what happens in saudia doesn't have anything to do with people all over the world insulting muslims for their clothes !!!, the muslims in USA and in Europe have no one to force them to wear the veil, yet they choose to wear it, and they get insulted for wearing it, so what does that have to do with what happens in saudia !!!

instead of saying that you condemn insulting people for their choice of clothes you are talking about a complete different thing !!!

so do you condemn insulting muslims for their free choice of clothes or not ??

I agree with you in general, Abso, but it happens in a LOT MORE places than just Saudi Arabia. Women are abused in MANY Muslim countries, including being forced to cover themselves.

[gabosaurus]

You are missing the point!! The thread is about why habits are accepted with nuns and not hijabs with Muslim women. Answer the question!



I could post all day about Saudi Arabia and their prevention of vice and promotion of virtue squad.

You can also post all day about Catholic priests and their promotion of vice and prevention of virtue.

[ConHog]

You are missing the point!! The thread is about why habits are accepted with nuns and not hijabs with Muslim women. Answer the question!



You can also post all day about Catholic priests and their promotion of vice and prevention of virtue.

Here's one reason.

Not every Catholic woman , nor even most, wear their nun garb out in public. And NONE that I Know of are forced to do so.

[jimnyc]

You are missing the point!! The thread is about why habits are accepted with nuns and not hijabs with Muslim women. Answer the question!



You can also post all day about Catholic priests and their promotion of vice and prevention of virtue.


Here's one reason.

Not every Catholic woman , nor even most, wear their nun garb out in public. And NONE that I Know of are forced to do so.

They are accepted, because they CHOOSE to wear them. And even if they go without, they won't be beaten, or worse, like they would in other areas. Many Muslims believe, and I'll post the video, that Shariah = Islam, that one can't be without the other. Shariah REQUIRES a woman to cover up.

[ConHog]

They are accepted, because they CHOOSE to wear them. And even if they go without, they won't be beaten, or worse, like they would in other areas. Many Muslims believe, and I'll post the video, that Shariah = Islam, that one can't be without the other. Shariah REQUIRES a woman to cover up.

Exactly, and Catholic nuns are women who have taken vows and serve inside the Church itself, you rarely see them in nun garb in public, unlike Islam where ALL women are expected to be covered at ALL times.


My favorite was that bitch a few years ago who said that she needed to wear her costume in her driver's license picture because her religion demanded it, never mind that according to Islam she shouldn't have even been driving.

[abso]

I believe this is called Discrimination by many.

I like to call it Human Nature as this is usually what happens when people of the same culture purposely kill thousands of innocent people from another culture.

if that is the measure by which you measure things, then the muslim people should hate christians for eternity for the hundreds of thousands of muslims who died during the crusades, and there than half a million of iraqi muslims who died in iraq, and the bosnian genocides, all those wars waged by christians have caused more than 1 111million muslim deathes at least, yet i don't see muslims making fun of the westren clothes or annoying christians in the street for the way they dress !!!

by the total destruction and kill of innocent people, christians have surpassed muslims by a factor of 1000 at least...


and you also didn't say that you refuse such treatment of people who didn't do anything except wearing what they want, so from what i can understand, you condone such actions ?

[abso]

Abso, you don't have a clue what it means to be "culturally forced" into certain behaviors. Of course as a Muslim male you would think/claim these women are happily donning their restrictive, shapeless, dehumanizing attire. No one is buying it.

The day the Catholic church demands that all Catholic women wear habits, and have the authority to physically punish those who refuse, you can talk.

and as a christian woman you don't have a clue about muslim girls, you just assume that they all hate wearing the veil, and for your information, alot of muslim women don't wear the veil, the majority does of course, but there are hundreds of thousands of muslim women who don't, and in that majority there are some who are being forced to wear it of course which is not the issue i am talking about, but there are alot of muslim women who are proud of what they wear, there are alot of muslim women who believe in what they do, who choose freely to do it, so who are you to say otherwise !!!!



and yet another one who deflect the subject, i am not talking about the catholics who force women to wear something or the muslims who does the same, i am talking about the westren culture of insulting muslim women who wear the veil, do you condone that ?

[abso]

I agree with you in general, Abso, but it happens in a LOT MORE places than just Saudi Arabia. Women are abused in MANY Muslim countries, including being forced to cover themselves.

i agree with you also about that, but that does insulting them in the streets make their life any better ???, the westren culture thinks that muslim women are oppressed so they just oppress them more !!!!, what is the logic in that ?

[abso]

You are missing the point!! The thread is about why habits are accepted with nuns and not hijabs with Muslim women. Answer the question!



You can also post all day about Catholic priests and their promotion of vice and prevention of virtue.


finally someone getting to the point !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! THANK YOU, i hate it when people talk about side issues and leave the main question unanswered at all, why don't they just answer the stupid question then start talking about other issues as long as they wish !!!

[abso]

They are accepted, because they CHOOSE to wear them. And even if they go without, they won't be beaten, or worse, like they would in other areas. Many Muslims believe, and I'll post the video, that Shariah = Islam, that one can't be without the other. Shariah REQUIRES a woman to cover up.

what if a woman is choosing with her own free will to wear the veil, who are we to say that her veil isn't accepted !!!, like the Egyptian muslim pharmacist who got insulted in germany for wearing veil, then the man killed her in court when she filled a suit against him for insulting her, she was a muslim pharmacist, not an ignorant country girl, she didn't live in saudia or somalia, she lived in germany, none forced her to wear the veil, so why did she get insulted for choosing what to wear, and why did she get killed inside a COURT !!!!


if they insult women because they are forced to wear like that then its stupid, they should pity them, not insult them and make their lifes alot harder ... and what annoys me very much is that none till now said that he is sorry when he hears about things like that, everyone is just trying to provide excuses for the people who insult innocent women !!!, there must be something wrong, either with me or with the people who replied here.

[abso]

Exactly, and Catholic nuns are women who have taken vows and serve inside the Church itself, you rarely see them in nun garb in public, unlike Islam where ALL women are expected to be covered at ALL times.


My favorite was that bitch a few years ago who said that she needed to wear her costume in her driver's license picture because her religion demanded it, never mind that according to Islam she shouldn't have even been driving.

you are right, they are forced to wear like that so we should insult them ...

bitch ???, i don't think you would have liked to hear someone saying that about your wife or daughter or sister or mother ....

you criticize the way muslims treat their women while you call women bitches, is that the way you prefer we treat them ???, call them bitches and insult them for what they wear ??? :D

[Kathianne]

what if a woman is choosing with her own free will to wear the veil, who are we to say that her veil isn't accepted !!!, like the Egyptian muslim pharmacist who got insulted in germany for wearing veil, then the man killed her in court when she filled a suit against him for insulting her, she was a muslim pharmacist, not an ignorant country girl, she didn't live in saudia or somalia, she lived in germany, none forced her to wear the veil, so why did she get insulted for choosing what to wear, and why did she get killed inside a COURT !!!!


if they insult women because they are forced to wear like that then its stupid, they should pity them, not insult them and make their lifes alot harder ... and what annoys me very much is that none till now said that he is sorry when he hears about things like that, everyone is just trying to provide excuses for the people who insult innocent women !!!, there must be something wrong, either with me or with the people who replied here.

Abso, I am trying to understand where you were and where you are. I've watched you evolve from open minded to buying into extremism. Indeed, here we can chronicle. I hope you are safe. I doubt you are happy, but wish you well.

[jimnyc]

i agree with you also about that, but that does insulting them in the streets make their life any better ???, the westren culture thinks that muslim women are oppressed so they just oppress them more !!!!, what is the logic in that ?

I'm even one of the ones that mocks sometimes, but it's not at the woman, but the veils and how they make women look the same.


finally someone getting to the point !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! THANK YOU, i hate it when people talk about side issues and leave the main question unanswered at all, why don't they just answer the stupid question then start talking about other issues as long as they wish !!!

You 2 agree because you're both wrong! You both want to make a comparison to the Catholic Church, priests and nuns - but neither is forced to wear their attire. So you can TRY to make a comparison, that "oh, look, the Catholics have to wear things too" - but it falls flat, as every last bit of the attire is a choice, and every one of them are FREE to not where them if that's not what they want.


what if a woman is choosing with her own free will to wear the veil, who are we to say that her veil isn't accepted !!!, like the Egyptian muslim pharmacist who got insulted in germany for wearing veil, then the man killed her in court when she filled a suit against him for insulting her, she was a muslim pharmacist, not an ignorant country girl, she didn't live in saudia or somalia, she lived in germany, none forced her to wear the veil, so why did she get insulted for choosing what to wear, and why did she get killed inside a COURT !!!!


if they insult women because they are forced to wear like that then its stupid, they should pity them, not insult them and make their lifes alot harder ... and what annoys me very much is that none till now said that he is sorry when he hears about things like that, everyone is just trying to provide excuses for the people who insult innocent women !!!, there must be something wrong, either with me or with the people who replied here.

Bravo and kudos to the women who want to wear the veil. And lots of men choose to wear headscarves as well. And I suppose you are correct, it doesn't make sense to ridicule those wearing veils, whether they chose to put it on or feel they are forced to do so. But unfortunately, that does very little or nothing to change the fact that millions of Muslim women ARE forced to cover up and millions are abused. I'm of the belief, that the oppression of the women I am speaking of, starts with little things like the veil and works its way up to physical abuse. Women should be treated like equals. Even my Muslim buddies here in the States will tell you that the women are not their equals. They don't force them to cover up here, and no physical abuse that I am aware of, but there's got to be forms of mental abuse if the men outright state they are superior to the women.

[Gaffer]

I'm surprised more of the catholics here didn't jump on this. Nuns wear habits because they are tradition. The bulky old habits have been replaced with more logical and comfortable means of dress. Unlike muslems the only catholic women that wear habits are those in the convents and rectories. There's no comparison between the two religions when it comes to how women dress. It's looking like women in egypt are not going to have an option very soon either. So will you be voting for the general or the islamist nut job?

If you really want to get into history and numbers of deaths, we can do that. But you better be well prepared with something other than pali bullshit and saudi rewrites.

[abso]

Abso, I am trying to understand where you were and where you are. I've watched you evolve from open minded to buying into extremism. Indeed, here we can chronicle. I hope you are safe. I doubt you are happy, but wish you well.

thanks ..., i am well and very happy by the way, i am going to finally graduate from college in 2 weeks, so i can't be any happier :D :D :D, wish you are well too...

about what you said, where exactly am i buying into extremism ???

i am not supporting forcing women into wearing the veil, and you know very well that i don't support extremism or terrorism or any kind of violence, everyone around here knows that although most of you like to pretend that i am a soon to be terrorist :D, but i am sure that everyone knows that i hate violence and terrorism, i condemn abusing women, i condemn killing innocents, i condemn all the hatred in the world no matter what culture it is directed at, be it Muslim or christian or Jewish or a non believe, i don't care, i just treat the person i deal with in the manner i like him to treat me, and by the way, regardless of what you think, i don't abuse or hate women :D

now lets get back to the subject ....

i am just asking you and everyone here a simple question, do you condone insulting women who wear the veil or not, that's all, is it too extreme to ask that one simple question ? :D

[abso]

I'm surprised more of the catholics here didn't jump on this. Nuns wear habits because they are tradition. The bulky old habits have been replaced with more logical and comfortable means of dress. Unlike muslems the only catholic women that wear habits are those in the convents and rectories. There's no comparison between the two religions when it comes to how women dress. It's looking like women in egypt are not going to have an option very soon either. So will you be voting for the general or the islamist nut job?

If you really want to get into history and numbers of deaths, we can do that. But you better be well prepared with something other than pali bullshit and saudi rewrites.

do you condone insulting women for what they wear or not ???

[Gaffer]

do you condone insulting women for what they wear or not ???

Nope. But I do condemn the ideology that that forces them to, whether its by their choice or not.

[abso]

Nope. But I do condemn the ideology that that forces them to, whether its by their choice or not.

thank you, thats the first direct answer i got till now...

about you condemning the ideology of forcing them to do so, i agree with you about that, but when i say ideology i mean the way that some people think, not the Islamic religion itself, by ideology i mean the misconception some people have about their religion and that it allows them to do as they wish with women, i hate that ideology, mine is very different, its very simple, in my religion there is a saying "الحلال بين و الحرام بين", it means that the right and wrong are very clear, there is no need for religion to know what is right and what is wrong, religions do help in that, but for me, when religion collide with your common sense, then you should follow your common sense, and by common sense insulting and abusing women are VERY wrong, so even if some people thinks that their religion allows them to abuse women, they should follow their common sense, they should know that no religion allows that, they should follow the most basic principle for all religions, BEING A GOOD HUMAN !!!


about you condemning them for wearing like that by their choice, if its by their own free choice, then why should you condemn them ???

[ConHog]

if that is the measure by which you measure things, then the muslim people should hate christians for eternity for the hundreds of thousands of muslims who died during the crusades, and there than half a million of iraqi muslims who died in iraq, and the bosnian genocides, all those wars waged by christians have caused more than 1 111million muslim deathes at least, yet i don't see muslims making fun of the westren clothes or annoying christians in the street for the way they dress !!!

by the total destruction and kill of innocent people, christians have surpassed muslims by a factor of 1000 at least...


and you also didn't say that you refuse such treatment of people who didn't do anything except wearing what they want, so from what i can understand, you condone such actions ?

Too bad for your theory that Muslims started the Crusades AND that Muslims killed most of the Muslims in Iraq as well.

But hey, lying isn't anything new to a Muslim is it.

[Gaffer]

thank you, thats the first direct answer i got till now...

about you condemning the ideology of forcing them to do so, i agree with you about that, but when i say ideology i mean the way that some people think, not the Islamic religion itself, by ideology i mean the misconception some people have about their religion and that it allows them to do as they wish with women, i hate that ideology, mine is very different, its very simple, in my religion there is a saying "الحلال بين و الحرام بين", it means that the right and wrong are very clear, there is no need for religion to know what is right and what is wrong, religions do help in that, but for me, when religion collide with your common sense, then you should follow your common sense, and by common sense insulting and abusing women are VERY wrong, so even if some people thinks that their religion allows them to abuse women, they should follow their common sense, they should know that no religion allows that, they should follow the most basic principle for all religions, BEING A GOOD HUMAN !!!


about you condemning them for wearing like that by their choice, if its by their own free choice, then why should you condemn them ???

Your unique as a muslim with the way you believe, and would probably be in considerable danger in your country if the islamists get the power they are looking for there. Common sense should always carry more weight than religious beliefs. But once the dogma of religion takes hold common sense is soon forgotten. Wearing a hajib by choice simply tells me the woman is ignorant and holding to a dogma. I'm not going to jeer and call her names, but I will not support her and would shun any contact with her. If she shed's the hajib and choses to be a free person I'll be happy to help her. But it's up to her to throw off the shackles.

So where do you want to take this from here?

[gabosaurus]

Another interesting thought turned into hate thread. So what else is new? **yawn** :lame2:

[jimnyc]

Another interesting thought turned into hate thread. So what else is new? **yawn** :lame2:

Where is the hate? Care to quote out who is hating?

[ConHog]

Where is the hate? Care to quote out who is hating?

Abso hates Christians, I thought that was pretty obvious. Kudos to Gabby for calling it out.

[jimnyc]

Abso hates Christians, I thought that was pretty obvious. Kudos to Gabby for calling it out.

I think the wording has been fairly tempered. Maybe some disagree on how widespread the 'forced' wearing of the veils are, but I don't see anyone getting out of line and wishing death or telling another they hate them. I'll put it bluntly - I have a serious issue with the treatment of women in general, in many parts of the Muslim world. That is not hate, that is reality. I even went back and read the thread, and other than a few wisecracks tossed in with the discussion, I really don't see anyone being hateful towards others religion. Either that or some are thin skinned and see hate where it really doesn't exist.

[ConHog]

I think the wording has been fairly tempered. Maybe some disagree on how widespread the 'forced' wearing of the veils are, but I don't see anyone getting out of line and wishing death or telling another they hate them. I'll put it bluntly - I have a serious issue with the treatment of women in general, in many parts of the Muslim world. That is not hate, that is reality. I even went back and read the thread, and other than a few wisecracks tossed in with the discussion, I really don't see anyone being hateful towards others religion. Either that or some are thin skinned and see hate where it really doesn't exist.

I 100% agree with you Jim. It's deplorable. and I don't even see why Abso is trying to deny it. I REALLY don't see how ANY female could defend Islam...........

[Kathianne]

thanks ..., i am well and very happy by the way, i am going to finally graduate from college in 2 weeks, so i can't be any happier :D :D :D, wish you are well too...

about what you said, where exactly am i buying into extremism ???

i am not supporting forcing women into wearing the veil, and you know very well that i don't support extremism or terrorism or any kind of violence, everyone around here knows that although most of you like to pretend that i am a soon to be terrorist :D, but i am sure that everyone knows that i hate violence and terrorism, i condemn abusing women, i condemn killing innocents, i condemn all the hatred in the world no matter what culture it is directed at, be it Muslim or christian or Jewish or a non believe, i don't care, i just treat the person i deal with in the manner i like him to treat me, and by the way, regardless of what you think, i don't abuse or hate women :D

now lets get back to the subject ....

i am just asking you and everyone here a simple question, do you condone insulting women who wear the veil or not, that's all, is it too extreme to ask that one simple question ? :D

Actually you are a bit back and forth on the treatment of women. You say their choice; then you say 'if they are forced to wear...' why make their lives more difficult?

[ConHog]

Actually you are a bit back and forth on the treatment of women. You say their choice; then you say 'if they are forced to wear...' why make their lives more difficult?

Because the truth of the matter is Abso is okay with the way Islam treats women, but if he just outright said that here he'd be booed off the board.

[abso]

Your unique as a muslim with the way you believe, and would probably be in considerable danger in your country if the islamists get the power they are looking for there. Common sense should always carry more weight than religious beliefs. But once the dogma of religion takes hold common sense is soon forgotten. Wearing a hajib by choice simply tells me the woman is ignorant and holding to a dogma. I'm not going to jeer and call her names, but I will not support her and would shun any contact with her. If she shed's the hajib and choses to be a free person I'll be happy to help her. But it's up to her to throw off the shackles.

So where do you want to take this from here?

i respect your opinion, and i can't judge you about thinking that she is holding to a wrong dogma, since i too for an example hate it when i see people worshiping cows, i too think that this is a wrong dogma, everyone sees things from his own perspective, and and as long as you don't want to force your perspective onto others then i have no problem at all with your opinion, it's just that i want people to treat each other with respect no matter how different they are in their believes and perspectives...

Thanks you again, and about where i want to take this from here, i think we are done talking about this subject, next time we will be discussing the Egyptian elections results :D


Actually you are a bit back and forth on the treatment of women. You say their choice; then you say 'if they are forced to wear...' why make their lives more difficult?

what is wrong with saying "if they are forced to wear ..." !!!!

i am just dealing with facts here, i can't prevent women abuse all over the world, but i can deal with it, i can stop insulting Muslim women whom i think is being forced to wear like that, and if its by her free choice then i also don't have the right to insult her ....


what's wrong with what i said here ?????!!!!!, did i support forcing them to wear the veil in any way by saying that ????


Because the truth of the matter is Abso is okay with the way Islam treats women, but if he just outright said that here he'd be booed off the board.

okay, some people like to assume they know the truth about others, and when someone do that with me, if i care about talking with him, i try to prove myself innocent of what he accuses me, but when i don't actually care at all about him, i do not waste any time in trying to prove myself innocent to a complete wrong accusation that he has made :D


I 100% agree with you Jim. It's deplorable. and I don't even see why Abso is trying to deny it. I REALLY don't see how ANY female could defend Islam...........

Okay, i promise that i will try to bring a Muslim female to this board, and then you all can get to know her opinion about Islam ...


Abso hates Christians, I thought that was pretty obvious. Kudos to Gabby for calling it out.

really ???, i guess my christian friends would object to that :D

[Nell's Room]

Abso, you don't have a clue what it means to be "culturally forced" into certain behaviors. Of course as a Muslim male you would think/claim these women are happily donning their restrictive, shapeless, dehumanizing attire. No one is buying it.

The day the Catholic church demands that all Catholic women wear habits, and have the authority to physically punish those who refuse, you can talk.

Most Muslim choose to wear the burqa, I believe. Some may be forced to by their husbands, but many of them choose to wear it as a sign of respect. It also helps to understand why women wear the burqa - it isn't because their husbands are controlling, it is because it protects them from being seen as objects.

Let me give you an idea of what I mean: Lets say you a walking down the street, and you have on a mini skirt, high heels, and a tight little top, and you are wearing a push up bra. You have a lot of skin exposed, and you know you look good, and want to show it off. What do you think happens when you walk by a group of men? A gorgeous, big breasted, leggy blonde walks past them - of course they are going to look and comment to their mates about your appearance.

But lets have the exact same scenario, only you are wearing a burqa instead. Your legs and stomach are covered, so is most of your face. No skin is exposed, no one knows what you look like. Do the men stand and ogle you? No, they don't. Why? Because there is nothing attractive about you, and this is the point.

Muslim women believe that their bodies are for their husbands eyes only. Only he is allowed to see her naked, and only he is allowed to marvel at her legs and breasts, etc. The point of the burqa is to prevent that ogling by men - not because her husband is forcing her to wear it.

[abso]

Most Muslim choose to wear the burqa, I believe. Some may be forced to by their husbands, but many of them choose to wear it as a sign of respect. It also helps to understand why women wear the burqa - it isn't because their husbands are controlling, it is because it protects them from being seen as objects.

Let me give you an idea of what I mean: Lets say you a walking down the street, and you have on a mini skirt, high heels, and a tight little top, and you are wearing a push up bra. You have a lot of skin exposed, and you know you look good, and want to show it off. What do you think happens when you walk by a group of men? A gorgeous, big breasted, leggy blonde walks past them - of course they are going to look and comment to their mates about your appearance.

But lets have the exact same scenario, only you are wearing a burqa instead. Your legs and stomach are covered, so is most of your face. No skin is exposed, no one knows what you look like. Do the men stand and ogle you? No, they don't. Why? Because there is nothing attractive about you, and this is the point.

Muslim women believe that their bodies are for their husbands eyes only. Only he is allowed to see her naked, and only he is allowed to marvel at her legs and breasts, etc. The point of the burqa is to prevent that ogling by men - not because her husband is forcing her to wear it.

Thank you for your explanation although i don't like the burqa, i like the veil better, where the woman cover her body but her face and hands are not covered, i don't like it when i speak to someone while i can't see her face, but of course its a woman's right to wear it if she want...

anyway, you have said what i already know but for some people around here this is not something that they are ready to acknowledge, that many Muslim women do believe in the Islamic dress code, that they wear it by choice, although there are some who are being forced to, but the majority wear it because they believe in it.

maybe people doesn't understand why a Muslim woman would cover her body, while all other women enjoy showing their bodies, but maybe people should just acknowledge that some women doesn't like people seeing her body, is that wrong !!!

[darin]

maybe people doesn't understand why a Muslim woman would cover her body, while all other women enjoy showing their bodies, but maybe people should just acknowledge that some women doesn't like people seeing her body, is that wrong !!!

Peace be upon you, abso!

I agree - as long as women/men are FREE to choose their style of dress w/o fear of bodily or physiological harm.

[Kathianne]

Okay, i promise that i will try to bring a Muslim female to this board, and then you all can get to know her opinion about Islam ...

I've been subbing for one teacher the past month or so. ELL, (English language learners). These are all 'recent immigrants' within the past 3 years. English is a very difficult language to speak, even more difficult to write correctly, (there are no rules except there's always exceptions.) All of the students speak English quite well, though many of their parents do not. They are also for the main, very smart, many in AP math, science courses.

The ELL class takes the place of their English class, which would be too advanced, even for the two sections of Advanced ELL. The tendency is to think in first language, then try to write in second; much is lost in the journey from head to paper. Another problem is their oral vocabulary is much wider than their reading or writing vocabulary-the opposite of native speakers.

With that bit of background, all the classes were working on writing 5 paragraph essays. The Advanced kids as a research paper on 'controversial issues.' There was a Muslim girl who was writing on, 'How The West Misunderstands Women's Dress In Islamic Countries.' Seemed like a very appropriate topic to me, until I started reading it. Keep in mind this girl, unlike many of the Muslim girls in the school, did not wear a hajib, burka, etc. Indeed she dressed as modest/immodest as most of the girls in the school. Shorts, tank top, sandals.

Her argument as stated in the first sentence was fine, however as the introductory paragraph went on, she bested her argument with examples of Iran and Taliban. Abso, you might want to note that she also expressed concern that if Egypt and Turkey continue their movements towards orthodoxy, the other Islamic countries are going to go more radical.

I explained that she'd have to confine her discussions to why the West misunderstood or she'd have to argue against governments forcing women to dress certain ways. Eventually she changed her topic, she just couldn't argue against Islamic countries, nor could she bring herself to argue that no one was forced.

[abso]

I've been subbing for one teacher the past month or so. ELL, (English language learners). These are all 'recent immigrants' within the past 3 years. English is a very difficult language to speak, even more difficult to write correctly, (there are no rules except there's always exceptions.) All of the students speak English quite well, though many of their parents do not. They are also for the main, very smart, many in AP math, science courses.

The ELL class takes the place of their English class, which would be too advanced, even for the two sections of Advanced ELL. The tendency is to think in first language, then try to write in second; much is lost in the journey from head to paper. Another problem is their oral vocabulary is much wider than their reading or writing vocabulary-the opposite of native speakers.

With that bit of background, all the classes were working on writing 5 paragraph essays. The Advanced kids as a research paper on 'controversial issues.' There was a Muslim girl who was writing on, 'How The West Misunderstands Women's Dress In Islamic Countries.' Seemed like a very appropriate topic to me, until I started reading it. Keep in mind this girl, unlike many of the Muslim girls in the school, did not wear a hajib, burka, etc. Indeed she dressed as modest/immodest as most of the girls in the school. Shorts, tank top, sandals.

Her argument as stated in the first sentence was fine, however as the introductory paragraph went on, she bested her argument with examples of Iran and Taliban. Abso, you might want to note that she also expressed concern that if Egypt and Turkey continue their movements towards orthodoxy, the other Islamic countries are going to go more radical.

I explained that she'd have to confine her discussions to why the West misunderstood or she'd have to argue against governments forcing women to dress certain ways. Eventually she changed her topic, she just couldn't argue against Islamic countries, nor could she bring herself to argue that no one was forced.

i am not here to lie, i am not arguing that women aren't forced at all to wear certain clothes, its up to the family, some families do force their daughters to wear in a certain way and other families don't.

the subject i am talking about here, aren't the way that Muslim women dress, or if they are forced or not, i am just talking about the way that west deal with Muslims in general, be it a man or a woman, when they see that their clothes are conservative, they directly think about terrorists...

my point is that the Muslim women have to dress like western women in the western countries to avoid repeated insults..

if your point is that Muslim women in Islamic countries are forced to wear in a certain way, then my point is that Muslim women in western countries are forced to remove the Islamic dress which they may have chosen to wear it with their own free will, they are forced not to wear it to avoid the insults.

so to put it simply:
some Muslim girls get forced to wear in a way that they don't like in Islamic countries.
some Muslim girls get forced to wear in a way that they don't like in western countries.

[Kathianne]

i am not here to lie, i am not arguing that women aren't forced at all to wear certain clothes, its up to the family, some families do force their daughters to wear in a certain way and other families don't.

the subject i am talking about here, aren't the way that Muslim women dress, or if they are forced or not, i am just talking about the way that west deal with Muslims in general, be it a man or a woman, when they see that their clothes are conservative, they directly think about terrorists...

my point is that the Muslim women have to dress like western women in the western countries to avoid repeated insults..

if your point is that Muslim women in Islamic countries are forced to wear in a certain way, then my point is that Muslim women in western countries are forced to remove the Islamic dress which they may have chosen to wear it with their own free will, they are forced not to wear it to avoid the insults.

so to put it simply:
some Muslim girls get forced to wear in a way that they don't like in Islamic countries.
some Muslim girls get forced to wear in a way that they don't like in western countries.

You seemed to miss where I compared how she dressed, to how other Muslim girls dressed. In that school there are many wearing hajib. A few in burkas. Yes, in the West. Yes, in a wealthy, mid-west high school. They are not harassed, just the opposite.

[ConHog]

i am not here to lie, i am not arguing that women aren't forced at all to wear certain clothes, its up to the family, some families do force their daughters to wear in a certain way and other families don't.

the subject i am talking about here, aren't the way that Muslim women dress, or if they are forced or not, i am just talking about the way that west deal with Muslims in general, be it a man or a woman, when they see that their clothes are conservative, they directly think about terrorists...

my point is that the Muslim women have to dress like western women in the western countries to avoid repeated insults..

if your point is that Muslim women in Islamic countries are forced to wear in a certain way, then my point is that Muslim women in western countries are forced to remove the Islamic dress which they may have chosen to wear it with their own free will, they are forced not to wear it to avoid the insults.

so to put it simply:
some Muslim girls get forced to wear in a way that they don't like in Islamic countries.
some Muslim girls get forced to wear in a way that they don't like in western countries.

If ONLY being forced to wear Burqas was the worst of it for the average Islamic woman.

Tell me Abso, do some women choose to be beaten by stranger if they dare to leave the house by themselves? Oh, and before you say "that doesn't happen in the USA" of course it probably doesn't because we have laws against such, and Muslim men aren't outright stupid, but we both know that if Muslims could get at least some Sharia law in this country we would see it happening.

Your religion treats women shamefully.

[Nell's Room]

If ONLY being forced to wear Burqas was the worst of it for the average Islamic woman.

Tell me Abso, do some women choose to be beaten by stranger if they dare to leave the house by themselves? Oh, and before you say "that doesn't happen in the USA" of course it probably doesn't because we have laws against such, and Muslim men aren't outright stupid, but we both know that if Muslims could get at least some Sharia law in this country we would see it happening.

Your religion treats women shamefully.

How can you say that her religion treats females badly? You are not a Muslim, and she is, so therefore she knows how she is treated within her religion.

Most Muslim women I have met are happy, they are not fearful, or controlled. They are just regular people. Don't believe all the crap you read in the newspapers.

[ConHog]

How can you say that her religion treats females badly? You are not a Muslim, and she is, so therefore she knows how she is treated within her religion.

Most Muslim women I have met are happy, they are not fearful, or controlled. They are just regular people. Don't believe all the crap you read in the newspapers.

Ive been over there. Very few happy middle eastern islamic women

[Nell's Room]

Ive been over there. Very few happy middle eastern islamic women

It depends on which part of the country you visited. Some parts of the Middle East are very strict, whereas other parts are more relaxed, and the women have more rights.

[abso]

If ONLY being forced to wear Burqas was the worst of it for the average Islamic woman.

Tell me Abso, do some women choose to be beaten by stranger if they dare to leave the house by themselves? Oh, and before you say "that doesn't happen in the USA" of course it probably doesn't because we have laws against such, and Muslim men aren't outright stupid, but we both know that if Muslims could get at least some Sharia law in this country we would see it happening.

Your religion treats women shamefully.

maybe, but all you have done is reading about what happens in the extreme areas, you haven't visited moderate countries to see yourself, when you do, let me know...

[abso]

You seemed to miss where I compared how she dressed, to how other Muslim girls dressed. In that school there are many wearing hajib. A few in burkas. Yes, in the West. Yes, in a wealthy, mid-west high school. They are not harassed, just the opposite.

so in a wealthy mid-west high school muslims are not harassed, does that apply to all other schools in USA, and to the streets and malls and shops as well ?, can you say that no Muslims are harassed in the entire USA ?

[Kathianne]

so in a wealthy mid-west high school muslims are not harassed, does that apply to all other schools in USA, and to the streets and malls and shops as well ?, can you say that no Muslims are harassed in the entire USA ?

No, cannot say that, but will say that there are few stories of such. OTOH, there are many more stories of 'families' taking out their daughters for being too Western. Same in Muslim countries. Abso, I'm very sorry to say that you are buying into the propaganda you've been served.

[Gaffer]

so in a wealthy mid-west high school muslims are not harassed, does that apply to all other schools in USA, and to the streets and malls and shops as well ?, can you say that no Muslims are harassed in the entire USA ?

Yes a girl in a midwest town, where she is the only muslim, is likely going to be harassed. That would be a rare occurrence, as most muslims congregate in certain parts of cities. The same would happen with a Sikh or hari kristna. It seems to me the Copts of egypt have it much harder than muslims in the US.

For every prejudicial action you can point at in the west and US, I can point to 9 with even worse out comes in the middle east. And many of those in the so called moderate countries.

[Thunderknuckles]

if that is the measure by which you measure things, then the muslim people should hate christians for eternity for the hundreds of thousands of muslims who died during the crusades, and there than half a million of iraqi muslims who died in iraq, and the bosnian genocides, all those wars waged by christians have caused more than 1 111million muslim deathes at least, yet i don't see muslims making fun of the westren clothes or annoying christians in the street for the way they dress !!!

by the total destruction and kill of innocent people, christians have surpassed muslims by a factor of 1000 at least...


and you also didn't say that you refuse such treatment of people who didn't do anything except wearing what they want, so from what i can understand, you condone such actions ?
Yes, that is one of the measure by which I measure things :)
It's just plain true. And I well aware of the killing of innocents by Christians. Hell, when I posted what I did, I wasn't even thinking about Muslims. I was thinking how much the Japanese must have distrusted Americans after having 2 nukes dropped on them :p

I've said it before, people of ALL cultures have justifiable reasons for discriminating against others. No amount of bullshit political correctness will ever change that because it is built into us.

[ConHog]

Yes, that is one of the measure by which I measure things :)
It's just plain true. And I well aware of the killing of innocents by Christians. Hell, when I posted what I did, I wasn't even thinking about Muslims. I was thinking how much the Japanese must have distrusted Americans after having 2 nukes dropped on them :p

I've said it before, people of ALL cultures have justifiable reasons for discriminating against others. No amount of bullshit political correctness will ever change that because it is built into us.

ahem, Japan never had a nuclear weapon dropped on them my friend. Just for historical perspective.

[cadet]

ahem, Japan never had a nuclear weapon dropped on them my friend. Just for historical perspective.

Con, you may want to brush up your education.

http://www.history.com/topics/bombing-of-hiroshima-and-nagasaki/videos#manhattan-project

[Thunderknuckles]

ahem, Japan never had a nuclear weapon dropped on them my friend. Just for historical perspective.
Are you splittin' hairs with me about the difference between fusion and fission?
:laugh:

[ConHog]

Are you splittin' hairs with me about the difference between fusion and fission?
:laugh:

Sorry

A) I'm a historian
B) I'ms a smart ass

[cadet]

Sorry

A) I'm a historian
B) I'ms a smart ass

That makes so much sense. THAT'S what's wrong with you.
historian...

[ConHog]

That makes so much sense. THAT'S what's wrong with you.
historian...

Cadet, I'm only being truthful when I say I pray everyday that you and every other guy your age grows up to be half the man I am.

[logroller]

so in a wealthy mid-west high school muslims are not harassed, does that apply to all other schools in USA, and to the streets and malls and shops as well ?, can you say that no Muslims are harassed in the entire USA ?
Well it's school, and being different is never easy. However, after the columbine shooting there has been a concerted effort to teach tolerance; often with a zero-tolerance for any type of bullying. It takes time, nothing meaningful happens overnight.
What concerns me is the resurgence of ultra-conservatism. In the US this is prevalent in the marriage debate. In Egypt I think there's some concern over the rise of the Muslim brotherhood. Would you disagree?