Spin Documents

[Kathianne]

Sorry my RW friends, but this really isn't an issue any longer. Other than the fact that it might have been. Think of it as mood music, if that helps.

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/born-kenya-obama-literary-agent-misidentified-birthplace-1991-214423507.html


‘Born in Kenya’: Obama’s literary agent misidentified his birthplace in 1991<cite class="byline vcard"></cite>

By Dylan Stableford (http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/author/dylan-stableford/) | The Ticket (http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/) – <abbr id="yui_3_4_0_25_1337303107888_317" title="2012-05-17T21:44:23Z">3 hrs ago</abbr>

A possible source of the so-called "birther" issue--or at least a potential cause of the rumors that have dogged President Barack Obama--has been identified.


Obama's former literary agency misidentified his birthplace as Kenya while trying to promote the then-Harvard Law grad as an author in 1991.


According to a promotional booklet produced by the agency, Acton & Dystel, to showcase its roster of writers, Obama was "born in Kenya and raised in Indonesia and Hawaii."
Miriam Goderich edited the text of the bio; she is now a partner at the Dystel & Goderich (http://www.dystel.com/) agency, which lists Obama as one of its current clients.


"This was nothing more than a fact checking error by me--an agency assistant at the time," Goderich wrote in an emailed statement to Yahoo News. "There was never any information given to us by Obama in any of his correspondence or other communications suggesting in any way that he was born in Kenya and not Hawaii. I hope you can communicate to your readers that this was a simple mistake and nothing more."

. . .






I've made it clear before, but am doing so again. Truth is, all issues with birth place, certificates, etc., were due before last election. They haven't a place now.

Obama will run on his record, no matter how much he resists that.

[logroller]

Wait; so Obama is a natural born citizen? I guess that makes sense, seeing as how he's president of the USA, and that's a requirement.

[revelarts]

Sorry my RW friends, but this really isn't an issue any longer. Other than the fact that it might have been. Think of it as mood music, if that helps.

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/born-kenya-obama-literary-agent-misidentified-birthplace-1991-214423507.html



I've made it clear before, but am doing so again. Truth is, all issues with birth place, certificates, etc., were due before last election. They haven't a place now.

Obama will run on his record, no matter how much he resists that.

So if someone gets away with a crime they are free to do what they want?

Your assertion that "it doesn't count now" because you say so doesn't fly Kath.

Aren't you tried of the double standards what's the line in the sand?
"Well ... hhmm maybe they did do it... they lied and we call called doubters crazy, stupid... it doesn't matter ... they did it lets move on. "
BS

this is just another piece of evidence.

http://cdn.breitbart.com/mediaserver/Breitbart/Big-Government/2012/05/09/Obama-Closeup-2.png



It's not "THE" source of the the Birthers. it A source.
A source that's been hidden and denied, denied, denied.

So we may have a crime and a cover up.
http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2012/05/17/The-Vetting-Barack-Obama-Literary-Agent-1991-Born-in-Kenya-Raised-Indonesia-Hawaii

[Kathianne]

So if someone gets away with a crime they are free to do what they want?

Your assertion that "it doesn't count now" because you say so doesn't fly Kath.

Aren't you tried of the double standards what's the line in the sand?
"Well ... hhmm maybe they did do it... they lied and we call called doubters crazy, stupid... it doesn't matter ... they did it lets move on. "
BS

this is just another piece of evidence.

http://cdn.breitbart.com/mediaserver/Breitbart/Big-Government/2012/05/09/Obama-Closeup-2.png



It's not "THE" source of the the Birthers. it A source.
A source that's been hidden and denied, denied, denied.

So we may have a crime and a cover up.
http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2012/05/17/The-Vetting-Barack-Obama-Literary-Agent-1991-Born-in-Kenya-Raised-Indonesia-Hawaii

It, (the topic, not the source), was brought up in the last election, enough people did not care. It's also been the source for many lawsuits, all thrown out. He was elected, that's not going to change. Now the question is, 'Are you birthers going to keep on this or nail him with his record of failure?'

[revelarts]

It, (the topic, not the source), was brought up in the last election, enough people did not care. It's also been the source for many lawsuits, all thrown out. He was elected, that's not going to change. Now the question is, 'Are you birthers going to keep on this or nail him with his record of failure?'

I'm not sure I'm a birther Yet but I think it's a VERY legit question. now that the Sherriff and others have brought up extra things to consider. I wasn't interested last election but i am now.
But why is it an either or.
Obama's record is crap. I've spooken to those that used to support him and those that still do. and the excuse for those that still support him is ...wait for it...
"those -blanky blank- Republicans made it so he couldn't get anything done."
I suppose there are people who are on the fence still but Romney is not a far piece better Kath.

[logroller]

So we may have a crime and a cover up.
http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2012/05/17/The-Vetting-Barack-Obama-Literary-Agent-1991-Born-in-Kenya-Raised-Indonesia-Hawaii

or a typo...you what else we have; hawaiian officials saying he was born there! But even if he did lie to get some scholarship, with this evidence of a cover-up; does that rise to the level of a treasonable offense? If it doesn't, then this is waste of time.

[Kathianne]

I'm not sure I'm a birther Yet but I think it's a VERY legit question. now that the Sherriff and others have brought up extra things to consider. I wasn't interested last election but i am now.
But why is it an either or.
Obama's record is crap. I've spooken to those that used to support him and those that still do. and the excuse for those that still support him is ...wait for it...
"those -blanky blank- Republicans made it so he couldn't get anything done."
I suppose there are people who are on the fence still but Romney is not a far piece better Kath.

Unlike this teacher:


http://youtu.be/vjpWaESn_9g

I would never deny your right to say whatever you want, with the caveat that no threats are made. ;)

On a practical level though when someone says, "Obama has not only failed to help the economy, his administration seems determined to destroy industries they personally don't like. Besides, he's not an American." With that last sentence, you've lost many, many people.

[Kathianne]

Unlike this teacher:


http://youtu.be/vjpWaESn_9g

I would never deny your right to say whatever you want, with the caveat that no threats are made. ;)

On a practical level though when someone says, "Obama has not only failed to help the economy, his administration seems determined to destroy industries they personally don't like. Besides, he's not an American." With that last sentence, you've lost many, many people.

I'm happy to report she was suspended, finally.

[revelarts]

or a typo...you what else we have; hawaiian officials saying he was born there! But even if he did lie to get some scholarship, with this evidence of a cover-up; does that rise to the level of a treasonable offense? If it doesn't, then this is waste of time.


Or a typo? Ok maybe but when was the last time someone got your place of birth wrong but knew you where you lived in elementary and middle school?
A better excuse is that he was lying then about his place of birth to get the benny's of being a foreign student.

And have you looked at the sheriffs presentation log. no need for me to talk to you about this much till then.

And your last bit, "treasonable offense" Well i guess you've got a point there. he invaded a country without congressional or constitutional authority. He Killed an American citizen without a trail. To mname 2 things, Those he's gotten away with so far, why would anyone care if he's not a U.S. citizen.
no one really seems to give a D@mn about the constitution.


Unlike this teacher:

-video-
I would never deny your right to say whatever you want, with the caveat that no threats are made. ;)

On a practical level though when someone says, "Obama has not only failed to help the economy, his administration seems determined to destroy industries they personally don't like. Besides, he's not an American." With that last sentence, you've lost many, many people.

Ah sure, i'd agree on practical level it turns some folks off, even though its a legitimate question. Anyone just trying to beat down Obama's rep for the sake of the coming election might want to keep their mouth's shut about his birth questions. However those who are interested should pursue it till satisfied and bring out the relevant points until people finally start to take it seriously or there's enough to dismiss it on the facts, not the politics or popular fashion.
truth is it's on virtue in most cases.

[logroller]

Or a typo? Ok maybe but when was the last time someone got your place of birth wrong but knew you where you lived in elementary and middle school?
A better excuse is that he was lying then about his place of birth to get the benny's of being a foreign student.

And have you looked at the sheriffs presentation log. no need for me to talk to you about this much till then.

And your last bit, "treasonable offense" Well i guess you've got a point there. he invaded a country without congressional or constitutional authority. He Killed an American citizen without a trail. To mname 2 things, Those he's gotten away with so far, why would anyone care if he's not a U.S. citizen.
no one really seems to give a D@mn about the constitution.



Ah sure, i'd agree on practical level it turns some folks off, even though its a legitimate question. Anyone just trying to beat down Obama's rep for the sake of the coming election might want to keep their mouth's shut about his birth questions. However those who are interested should pursue it till satisfied and bring out the relevant points until people finally start to take it seriously or there's enough to dismiss it on the facts, not the politics or popular fashion.
truth is it's on virtue in most cases.

Who's this sheriff and why is his official title of merit here REV? He has some new evidence; it is treasonable???? NO. Then give it to those who monitor the scholarship eligibility. It's really not of my concern and furthermore, your attempt at dodging that fact by mentioning other offenses discounts your credibility; though not as much revisiting the birther issue ...but you're doing that too. As a matter of legal fact, Obama is a natural born citizen. Your doubt doesn't change that.

[revelarts]

Who's this sheriff and why is his official title of merit here REV?
see bottom of post



He has some new evidence; it is treasonable???? NO.
Treasonable again. why do you bring up treasonable? is that a Constitutional requirement for impeachment or something? So the constitution does apply here. great. "No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President;." or is it only the parts that don't disrupt the party's rep to much or what?





...Then give it to those who monitor the scholarship eligibility. It's really not of my concern and furthermore, your attempt at dodging that fact by mentioning other offenses discounts your credibility;...
Kath mentioned "other facts" as reasons one should not mention it , you keep talking about treasonable as if that is the standard when clearly the problem stands on the article 2 requirement being unmet. My credibility here is not my chef concern the facts are.



....though not as much revisiting the birther issue ...but you're doing that too. As a matter of legal fact, Obama is a natural born citizen. Your doubt doesn't change that.
But I think Kath started this thread not me.

And my doubt wouldn't change it and your lack of doubt doesn't make it so. And from a purely objective unbias POV your dismissal of any doubts without reviewing contrary facts doesn't strengthen your position.


Who is Sheriff Appara
He's an elected official just like Obam except i'd assume there's no lingering question he met the eligibility requirements of his office.

But his a bit of the transcript of the Sheriffs investigative group's presentation

SHERIFF ARPAIO [03:39]: Good afternoon. You know, in August last year, a large
group of citizens came to my office from the Surprise Arizona Tea Party and met with
me, asked if I would investigate the controversy surrounding President Obama's
birth certificate and his ability to serve as the President of the United States. This
group expressed displeasure that no law enforcement agency in the country has ever
gone on record indicating that they had either looked into this situation or were
willing to do so.
I decided to utilize my Cold Case Posse, volunteers, to investigate the
situation at no expense to the taxpayers. I repeat, no expense to the taxpayers. The
Cold Case Posse has received much criminal training in investigations from my office
and agreed to take on the challenge. The Posse reports directly to the office of the
elected Sheriff, per the Arizona Constitution, consisting of former police officers,
attorneys, who worked side by side for six months investigating this matter. I asked
them to conduct the investigation with no preconceived ideas. Call it like it is. The
critics will say that this investigation is politics, but let me clear that up on one point.
I felt that this investigation could clear the President Obama's name and put people's
mind at ease. It would be beneficial to our country as a whole and to the citizens of

Maricopa County, Arizona, who came to me saying they felt their concerns were
being ignored.
The investigation focuses on the electronic file you'll see, that was presented
as President Obama's long-form birth certificate to the American people and to
citizens of Maricopa County by the White House in April of last year. The
investigation then also led us to a closer examination of the President's Selective
Service Registration card. Upon close examination of the evidence, we are prepared
today to say we believe probable cause exists indicating that forgery and fraud may
have been committed, not only in President Obama's long form birth certificate, but
more disturbing evidence suggests that another fraud may have been committed
regarding his Selective Service Registration card. At the very least, I can tell you
this: based on all of the evidence presented and investigated, I cannot in good faith
report to you that these documents are authentic.
[07:39] My investigators believe that the long form birth certificate was
manufactured electronically and that it did not originate in a paper format as claimed
by the White House. How we came to that conclusion will be presented to you by our
lead investigator, Mike Zullo....

here's a link to the full presentation telling how they came to those conclusions.
http://buenavistamall.com/Sheriff_Arpaio_transcript.pdf

Make up you own minds but based on this real investigation Obama's claims don't past the stink test. Sheriff Arpaio and his team aren't a bunch of guys sitting around the barbershop moaning about how they hate Obama saying he doesn't looks like a real amurikan.
And it seems there's still no verification of where Obama was born other than the word of people who weren't there or are to young to know if these docs are forged.

But just blow them off and raise the bar to treason if you like. Article 2 is still there. Even if you want to dismiss it.

<object style="height: 390px; width: 640px"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/ikaajbOEWpk?version=3&feature=player_embedded"><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/ikaajbOEWpk?version=3&feature=player_embedded" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" width="640" height="360"></object>

<object style="height: 390px; width: 640px"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/CGu9NDAw2Vg?version=3&feature=player_embedded"><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/CGu9NDAw2Vg?version=3&feature=player_embedded" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" width="640" height="360"></object>


<object style="height: 390px; width: 640px"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/DGW6WYmcneU?version=3&feature=player_embedded"><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/DGW6WYmcneU?version=3&feature=player_embedded" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" width="640" height="360"></object>

[logroller]

I misspoke rev; I meant impeachable, not treasonable. Sorry, I just skimmed the rest. But sheriff Arapaho (sp) is elected to enforce the laws of his state and county. I think he'd better serve those laws, not play special investigator on the president. Whatever lingering doubt you or he may hold are of little consequence; as constitutionally speaking he is a natural born citizen. you're beating a dead horse.

[revelarts]

I misspoke rev; I meant impeachable, not treasonable. Sorry, I just skimmed the rest. But sheriff Arapaho (sp) is elected to enforce the laws of his state and county. I think he'd better serve those laws, not play special investigator on the president. Whatever lingering doubt you or he may hold are of little consequence; as constitutionally speaking he is a natural born citizen. you're beating a dead horse.

The Sheriff was hired to serve the people of his Area, the people of his Area who voted for him AND the president of the U.S. They had a question about THEIR PRESIDENT. A presidents legitimacy -it seems to me- falls under the jurisdiction of every citizen, every county, every state, every sheriff, every county and state attorney or local/state/fed judge. He's the President not the king and not above the law.

And eligibility clause still stands in the constitution as well as impeachable offenses. And the eligibility clause would make his presidency void. It's preemptive strike. no need to impeach he's illegitimate.
IF hes not a citizen.
Your evidence poor assertions of his citizenship are simply not the end of the matter Log. It's still an unanswered question.

[fj1200]

The Sheriff was hired to serve the people of his Area, the people of his Area who voted for him AND the president of the U.S. They had a question about THEIR PRESIDENT. A presidents legitimacy -it seems to me- falls under the jurisdiction of every citizen, every county, every state, every sheriff, every county and state attorney or local/state/fed judge. He's the President not the king and not above the law.

It's not his jurisdiction. Under your logic that group of people could go ask any flat foot on the street to investigate the same "crime."

[logroller]

The Sheriff was hired to serve the people of his Area, the people of his Area who voted for him AND the president of the U.S. They had a question about THEIR PRESIDENT. A presidents legitimacy -it seems to me- falls under the jurisdiction of every citizen, every county, every state, every sheriff, every county and state attorney or local/state/fed judge. He's the President not the king and not above the law.

And eligibility clause still stands in the constitution as well as impeachable offenses. And the eligibility clause would make his presidency void. It's preemptive strike. no need to impeach he's illegitimate.
IF hes not a citizen.
Your evidence poor assertions of his citizenship are simply not the end of the matter Log. It's still an unanswered question.
Supremacy clause excludes his official service to community in the matter; he's just acting as a citizen. Beyond that, officials with the state of Hawaii have confirmed obama's birth as havi g taken place in Hawaii. As there's no federal powerful of birth certification, the power is then Reserved to the states or the people. However the state of Hawaii has expressed the power to do so, their certification is legal under the laws of the united states. That's the law rev.

[revelarts]

Supremacy clause excludes his official service to community in the matter; he's just acting as a citizen. Beyond that, officials with the state of Hawaii have confirmed obama's birth as havi g taken place in Hawaii. As there's no federal powerful of birth certification, the power is then Reserved to the states or the people. However the state of Hawaii has expressed the power to do so, their certification is legal under the laws of the united states. That's the law rev.

I'd disagree that the supremacy clause applies here Log.
But Log , like i said earlier, I didn't bring the subject up, Kathianne did. I've never started a thread on this subject. But i see that more heat than light has been thrown around on this subject. Hawaii has yet to produce a viable document to backup "the fact" that he's a citizen. A declaration by state officials is great, if that's good enough for you. Hawaii declares that Obama is an natural born citizen. Like an honorary degree or something. OK. that's PROOF. A state official ,the Arizona Sheriff, has declared the Hawaii docs fake. OK that's proof too i guess right?
Look, it's really not a big issue for me but it is a very interesting question in the light of this professional investigation. There is honest room for Doubt. And if he's not a born Hawaiian it's a sad legal mess and a terrible precedence.

[tailfins]

I'm happy to report she was suspended, finally.

You're happy she got a FREE PAID vacation. It's seems the way to get extra vacation time is to deliberately break the rules, but not enough to get fired.

[logroller]

I'd disagree that the supremacy clause applies here Log.
But Log , like i said earlier, I didn't bring the subject up, Kathianne did. I've never started a thread on this subject. But i see that more heat than light has been thrown around on this subject. Hawaii has yet to produce a viable document to backup "the fact" that he's a citizen. A declaration by state officials is great, if that's good enough for you. Hawaii declares that Obama is an natural born citizen. Like an honorary degree or something. OK. that's PROOF. A state official ,the Arizona Sheriff, has declared the Hawaii docs fake. OK that's proof too i guess right?
Look, it's really not a big issue for me but it is a very interesting question in the light of this professional investigation. There is honest room for Doubt. And if he's not a born Hawaiian it's a sad legal mess and a terrible precedence.
Well rev, such issues needn't dispel doubt to be viable or legally binding; I believe the standard is preponderance of evidence. Article IV section 1 "full faith and credit shall be given in each State to the public act, records, and judicial proceedings of every other State..." Hawaii says its legal, arizona is bound by the constitution to respect their authority. AZ sheriffs lack the official capacity to effect investigations into the affairs of another state; and furthermore, they're legally required to respect the other state's findings. End of story.

[revelarts]

Well rev, such issues needn't dispel doubt to be viable or legally binding; I believe the standard is preponderance of evidence. Article IV section 1 "full faith and credit shall be given in each State to the public act, records, and judicial proceedings of every other State..." Hawaii says its legal, arizona is bound by the constitution to respect their authority. AZ sheriffs lack the official capacity to effect investigations into the affairs of another state; and furthermore, they're legally required to respect the other state's findings. End of story.
That's a good post
but man i really didn't want to talk about this anymore
don't want to be in the position of birther advocate. but. what the heck.

Preponderance of evidence means there is good evidence right? Well the birth certificate is suspected a fake by independent investigators. So where's the Preponderance?

Full Faith and Credit, well Ok there's this



Hawaii responds to Bennett's Obama birth records request | azfamily.com Phoenix (http://www.azfamily.com/news/Hawaii-responds-to-Bennetts--152213005.html)

PHOENIX -- The state of Hawaii has responded to Arizona Secretary of State Ken Bennett’s request for proof that President Barack Obama was in fact born in the Aloha State.

The Hawaii attorney general’s office has reportedly told Bennett that there are steps he needs to take in order to confirm President Obama’s birth records.

Those steps include Bennett proving that he legitimately needs confirmation in order to update the records at his office.

Bennett recently said in an interview with KFYI that he had asked Hawaii to further verify the President’s birth.

Bennett said he would consider removing President Obama’s name from the ballot during this year’s presidential election if Hawaii didn’t fulfill his request.

Bennett stated that he is not a “birther,” and believes that President Obama was born in the United States.

He went on to explain that he had received about 1,200 emails from Arizona voters who are concerned about President Obama’s birth records, and felt it was his duty to follow up.

President Obama released his birth certificate last year after some people questioned whether he was actually born in Hawaii.

Sheriff Joe Arpaio has been investigating the President’s birth certificate since last August. Arpaio has said that his investigation is still ongoing.


So it looks like they are NOT legally bound if they don't present legal docs.

Just saying.

the story goes on...

[logroller]

That's a good post
but man i really didn't want to talk about this anymore
don't want to be in the position of birther advocate. but. what the heck.

Preponderance of evidence means there is good evidence right? Well the birth certificate is suspected a fake by independent investigators. So where's the Preponderance?

Full Faith and Credit, well Ok there's this



So it looks like they are NOT legally bound if they don't present legal docs.

Just saying.

the story goes on...
Preponderance of the evidence just means which is the more believable story based on the available evidence. Good bad, doesn't matter-- Just better. The birther findings of these investigations has been, all along, that the evidence provided by Hawaii wasn't acceptable. Truth is, the docs provided to federal courts resulted in the birth cert issue being dismissed based on prima facie evidence-- the short form. Meaning that after discovery, when the evidence was presented, the court found nothing that even merited consideration; going on to chastise the plaintiff counsel for wasting the court's time. Apparently the citizens of Arizona don't mind wasting their time; I would advise them to quit wasting the state of hawaii's time and direct them to the Internet where the state of Hawaii and a plethora of other independent sources have already confirmed the birth cert as valid.

[ConHog]

So if someone gets away with a crime they are free to do what they want?

Your assertion that "it doesn't count now" because you say so doesn't fly Kath.

Aren't you tried of the double standards what's the line in the sand?
"Well ... hhmm maybe they did do it... they lied and we call called doubters crazy, stupid... it doesn't matter ... they did it lets move on. "
BS

this is just another piece of evidence.

http://cdn.breitbart.com/mediaserver/Breitbart/Big-Government/2012/05/09/Obama-Closeup-2.png



It's not "THE" source of the the Birthers. it A source.
A source that's been hidden and denied, denied, denied.

So we may have a crime and a cover up.
http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2012/05/17/The-Vetting-Barack-Obama-Literary-Agent-1991-Born-in-Kenya-Raised-Indonesia-Hawaii

What crime are you talking about here? I don't see a crime on THIS topic.

[ConHog]

That's a good post
but man i really didn't want to talk about this anymore
don't want to be in the position of birther advocate. but. what the heck.

Preponderance of evidence means there is good evidence right? Well the birth certificate is suspected a fake by independent investigators. So where's the Preponderance?

Full Faith and Credit, well Ok there's this



So it looks like they are NOT legally bound if they don't present legal docs.

Just saying.

the story goes on...

What do you mean by "good evidence?"

[Kathianne]

You're happy she got a FREE PAID vacation. It's seems the way to get extra vacation time is to deliberately break the rules, but not enough to get fired.
One can hope that she doesn't enter a classroom again. She should not be teaching.

[revelarts]

What crime are you talking about here? I don't see a crime on THIS topic.


What do you mean by "good evidence?"

why are ya'll draggng me to this i don't want to do this.

Ok the crime is fraud
the evidence would be an untampered official BC or other unbiased records.

ok i'm done with this it's not my issue, i just think it's interesting.

[logroller]

why are ya'll draggng me to this i don't want to do this.

Ok the crime is fraud
the evidence would be an untampered official BC or other unbiased records.

ok i'm done with this it's not my issue, i just think it's interesting.

I think its interesting that unfounded accusations of birth certificate tampering have gained the traction they have. Officials from the state of hawaii have verified the legitimacy of the birth certificate...are you saying the state of Hawaii is biased? That's an outlandish belief; and one that undermines the fabric of the Republic by which We stand.
BTW, fraud is a crime; the burden of proof lies with the accuser, and the legal standard is beyond a reasonable doubt. You can't say, provide evidence of your innocence-- that's a witch hunt. You of all people should know that.

[revelarts]

I think its interesting that unfounded accusations of birth certificate tampering have gained the traction they have. Officials from the state of Hawaii have verified the legitimacy of the birth certificate...are you saying the state of Hawaii is biased? That's an outlandish belief; and one that undermines the fabric of the Republic by which We stand.
BTW, fraud is a crime; the burden of proof lies with the accuser, and the legal standard is beyond a reasonable doubt. You can't say, provide evidence of your innocence-- that's a witch hunt. You of all people should know that.

see i have a problem with this
"unfounded accusations"
the sheriff spent 9+ months looking at the docs and see clear fraud. I can't dismiss this as easily as you seem to be able to with a sniff and roll of the eye.

Present to me all the evidence from Hawaii to quiet my minor doubts. I've posted the Sheriffs accusations. you just keep saying Hawaii has "proved" it "declared it". SHOW ME Log. Beyond a reasonable doubt.
and let the truth be know if the heavens fall.

[logroller]

see i have a problem with this
"unfounded accusations"
the sheriff spent 9+ months looking at the docs and see clear fraud. I can't dismiss this as easily as you seem to be able to with a sniff and roll of the eye.

Present to me all the evidence from Hawaii to quiet my minor doubts. I've posted the Sheriffs accusations. you just keep saying Hawaii has "proved" it "declared it". SHOW ME Log. Beyond a reasonable doubt.
and let the truth be know if the heavens fall.

http://factcheck.org/2008/08/born-in-the-usa/

http://hawaii.gov/health/about/pr/2009/09-063.pdf

[ConHog]

see i have a problem with this
"unfounded accusations"
the sheriff spent 9+ months looking at the docs and see clear fraud. I can't dismiss this as easily as you seem to be able to with a sniff and roll of the eye.

Present to me all the evidence from Hawaii to quiet my minor doubts. I've posted the Sheriffs accusations. you just keep saying Hawaii has "proved" it "declared it". SHOW ME Log. Beyond a reasonable doubt.
and let the truth be know if the heavens fall.

Good Lord Rev. I have a sneaking suspicion that if you were being held in Guantanamo with the same level of evidence you have that Obama is not a natural born US citizen claiming that you were a terrorist you would be screaming at the top of your lungs that they didn't have enough evidence of anything.

I'm rather positive of it.

[Wind Song]

The whole birther movement is ludicrous.

[revelarts]

----

[ConHog]

see i have a problem with this
"unfounded accusations"
the sheriff spent 9+ months looking at the docs and see clear fraud.
i can't dismiss this as easily as you seem to be able to with a sniff and roll of the eye.

Present to me all the evidence from Hawaii to quiet my minor doubts. I've posted the Sheriffs accusations. you just keep saying Hawaii has "proved" it "declared it". SHOW ME Log. Beyond a reasonable doubt.
and let the truth be know if the heavens fall.

repost?

[logroller]

repost?

the first one was a fake...:laugh:

[revelarts]

----
The evidence your link to is not bad, a live copy of the short form and official statements to their authenticity PLUS a local birth announcement, that's very good probably the best yet. Enough to calm doubts. But as your link mentioned the official stuff is NOT a slam dunk though. But good enough for gov't work i suppose. As I've said several times now it's not my issue, though everyone seems to hate the very question. OK I've dared to be Birther lighting rod for a minute and taken the scorn of the board for something I don't own here, can we move on please.
thanks
move along ... nothing to see here move along

[jimnyc]

----
The evidence your link to is not bad, a live copy of the short form and official statements to their authenticity PLUS a local birth announcement, that's very good probably the best yet. Enough to calm doubts. But as your link mentioned the official stuff is NOT a slam dunk though. But good enough for gov't work i suppose. As I've said several times now it's not my issue, though everyone seems to hate the very question. OK I've dared to be Birther lighting rod for a minute and taken the scorn of the board for something I don't own here, can we move on please.
thanks
move along ... nothing to see here move along

Not from me!! And that's not to say I believe he was born elsewhere, but that I haven't went either way. I don't trust anything this fucker sends our way. Even if, which I don't think, but even if - the damage is done already, and had nothing to do with where he was born - but where he was since 2008. With that said, I see no 'great' reason to believe anything but what we've been told thus far, but I wouldn't stop someone from looking into things further. And Sheriff Joe rules!

[Missileman]

Not from me!! And that's not to say I believe he was born elsewhere, but that I haven't went either way. I don't trust anything this fucker sends our way. Even if, which I don't think, but even if - the damage is done already, and had nothing to do with where he was born - but where he was since 2008. With that said, I see no 'great' reason to believe anything but what we've been told thus far, but I wouldn't stop someone from looking into things further. And Sheriff Joe rules!

The whole thing raises a couple questions. If he has a legit BC in Hawaii, why produce a fake? If he could legally obtain a SSN, why steal one from a dead Connecticut resident?

[logroller]

The whole thing raises a couple questions. If he has a legit BC in Hawaii, why produce a fake? If he could legally obtain a SSN, why steal one from a dead Connecticut resident?

I've shown evidence of a legitimate BC provide my Obama. Show me this fake birth certificate that he presented. I can't let that allegation go unsupported by evidence. And by evidence, a birth certificate verifiably provided by Obama which wasn't an official document of the State of Hawaii. I've never seen this, and I've looked...a lot!

You know the question it raises for me; why does this not come to the attention of anybody when he filed his first tax return, or the multitude of other times his ssi or , gee, I don't know, when he's going through the background check to become a US Senator. Nope, not until he wants to run for president; now the fraud is unveiled... or rather, the mud gets cast about.

[logroller]

Hey MM, was this the fake you were referring to?
3459

[Missileman]

I've shown evidence of a legitimate BC provide my Obama. Show me this fake birth certificate that he presented. I can't let that allegation go unsupported by evidence. And by evidence, a birth certificate verifiably provided by Obama which wasn't an official document of the State of Hawaii. I've never seen this, and I've looked...a lot!

You know the question it raises for me; why does this not come to the attention of anybody when he filed his first tax return, or the multitude of other times his ssi or , gee, I don't know, when he's going through the background check to become a US Senator. Nope, not until he wants to run for president; now the fraud is unveiled... or rather, the mud gets cast about.

Look at what you call a legitimate BC with a discerning eye and it clearly is NOT a legitimate BC. The changes in font alone are enough to call into question its legitimacy. Typewriters from the 60s didn't type in multiple fonts. Type alignment would also be consistent throughout a document typed on the same typewriter.

How many other people born in Hawaii in the 60s wound up with an SSN from another state? How many other NEGROs born in Hawaii in the 60s have African listed as race on a BC?

[logroller]

Look at what you call a legitimate BC with a discerning eye and it clearly is NOT a legitimate BC. The changes in font alone are enough to call into question its legitimacy. Typewriters from the 60s didn't type in multiple fonts. Type alignment would also be consistent throughout a document typed on the same typewriter.

How many other people born in Hawaii in the 60s wound up with an SSN from another state? How many other NEGROs born in Hawaii in the 60s have African listed as race on a BC?
Rubbish. The state of Hawaii says its legit. Simply doubting means. Itching; officials say it is legit-- you have to overcome that.The race was listed as whatever the parents said. You'd have to ask his dad why he put he out African. The type alignment? The legitimate copy I've seen was a computer generated version. Again, show me a picture of the birth cert you claim is fraudulent, with proof it was produced by Obama.

[Missileman]

Rubbish. The state of Hawaii says its legit. Simply doubting means. Itching; officials say it is legit-- you have to overcome that.The race was listed as whatever the parents said. You'd have to ask his dad why he put he out African. The type alignment? The legitimate copy I've seen was a computer generated version. Again, show me a picture of the birth cert you claim is fraudulent, with proof it was produced by Obama.

Computer generated version of a piece of paper...how exactly does that come about? Are you saying that computer-generating a forged document results in a legitimate copy?

[Abbey Marie]

Preponderance of the evidence just means which is the more believable story based on the available evidence. Good bad, doesn't matter-- Just better. The birther findings of these investigations has been, all along, that the evidence provided by Hawaii wasn't acceptable. Truth is, the docs provided to federal courts resulted in the birth cert issue being dismissed based on prima facie evidence-- the short form. Meaning that after discovery, when the evidence was presented, the court found nothing that even merited consideration; going on to chastise the plaintiff counsel for wasting the court's time. Apparently the citizens of Arizona don't mind wasting their time; I would advise them to quit wasting the state of hawaii's time and direct them to the Internet where the state of Hawaii and a plethora of other independent sources have already confirmed the birth cert as valid.

Actually, it's a standard of which evidence is more convincing; which evidence is likely true.
I would say that "good, bad" does in fact matter.


preponderance of the evidence
n. the greater weight of the evidence required in a civil (non-criminal) lawsuit for the trier of fact (jury or judge without a jury) to decide in favor of one side or the other. This preponderance is based on the more convincing evidence and its probable truth or accuracy, and not on the amount of evidence. Thus, one clearly knowledgeable witness may provide a preponderance of evidence over a dozen witnesses with hazy testimony, or a signed agreement with definite terms may outweigh opinions or speculation about what the parties intended. Preponderance of the evidence is required in a civil case and is contrasted with "beyond a reasonable doubt," which is the more severe test of evidence required to convict in a criminal trial. No matter what the definition stated in various legal opinions, the meaning is somewhat subjective.

[Abbey Marie]

The whole thing raises a couple questions. If he has a legit BC in Hawaii, why produce a fake? If he could legally obtain a SSN, why steal one from a dead Connecticut resident?

Wow, I hadn't heard about this. Does he really have a Connecticut SSN?

[Missileman]

Wow, I hadn't heard about this. Does he really have a Connecticut SSN?

Absolutely...and has never, ever, been a resident of Connecticut. The guy it used to belong to moved to and died in Hawaii.

[logroller]

Computer generated version of a piece of paper...how exactly does that come about? Are you saying that computer-generating a forged document results in a legitimate copy?
If it carries the force of law, it's legitimate. Ive already made my case on that here (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?30984-Donald-Trump-On-Obama-s-Birth-Certificate&p=466885#post466885).

Now you allege it is a forgery; so the burden is upon you to show that it is illegitimate.

[Missileman]

If it carries the force of law, it's legitimate. Ive already made my case on that here (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?30984-Donald-Trump-On-Obama-s-Birth-Certificate&p=466885#post466885).

Now you allege it is a forgery; so the burden is upon you to show that it is illegitimate.

I'm not the only one to conclude it's a forgery. If you would actually remove your hands from over your eyes and EXAMINE what they purport is Obama's BC, you too might observe those indications that are there.

[Kathianne]

I'm not the only one to conclude it's a forgery. If you would actually remove your hands from over your eyes and EXAMINE what they purport is Obama's BC, you too might observe those indications that are there.

As I've been round and round with Rev on this, the time for this was last election. Hit him on record. The issue was brought up and rejected by enough for last election. Now? Sounds like sour grapes and prevents the real messages from getting through.

[Missileman]

As I've been round and round with Rev on this, the time for this was last election. Hit him on record. The issue was brought up and rejected by enough for last election. Now? Sounds like sour grapes and prevents the real messages from getting through.

I don't disagree, that doesn't alter or negate the questions I raised though.

[logroller]

I'm not the only one to conclude it's a forgery. If you would actually remove your hands from over your eyes and EXAMINE what they purport is Obama's BC, you too might observe those indications that are there.
There was a time when the people believed the world was flat; but evidence proved them wrong.
Im asking for you to present hard evidence; I've done so, with supportive laws which show why obama's birth cert is legitimate.
Call me blind if discourse is all you have; but
Lady justice is blind; but she wields a sword, and not a tincap.

[Missileman]

There was a time when the people believed the world was flat; but evidence proved them wrong.
Im asking for you to present hard evidence; I've done so, with supportive laws which show why obama's birth cert is legitimate.
Call me blind if discourse is all you have; but
Lady justice is blind; but she wields a sword, and not a tincap.

Sorry, but your proclomation of legitimacy is about as hard, evidence wise, as a marshmallow. If I make a copy of a forged Mona Lisa and some dink from the state records office says it's the real deal, it's still a fake and not legitimate. And your example of the flat earth is perfect...look how many times the "official" position on similar matters has been out in left field.

My evidence, and all the evidence needed, IS the document that was offered up as the BC.

[logroller]

Sorry, but your proclomation of legitimacy is about as hard, evidence wise, as a marshmallow. If I make a copy of a forged Mona Lisa and some dink from the state records office says it's the real deal, it's still a fake and not legitimate. And your example of the flat earth is perfect...look how many times the "official" position on similar matters has been out in left field.

My evidence, and all the evidence needed, IS the document that was offered up as the BC.

I'm not proclaiming anything; I'm presenting argument, relevant law and evidence.
Legitimacy is something which conforms to law or rule. I have shown that my evidence does conform to the law. You wanna debate that, show me why it doesn't.

[Abbey Marie]

Absolutely...and has never, ever, been a resident of Connecticut. The guy it used to belong to moved to and died in Hawaii.

Thanks. Where have i been?

That makes this so much more unsettling to me. It's right out of a spy novel. Too many things are not adding up here.

[logroller]

Thanks. Where have i been?

That makes this so much more unsettling to me. It's right out of a spy novel. Too many things are not adding up here.

Out of a spy novel alright, using fiction to manifest a typo into a conspiracy.. http://www.snopes.com (http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/birthers/ssn.asp)/politics/obama/birthers/ssn.asp

[logroller]

Surprised. http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hhacFAfKugFRgqyd-OAq5dCgiQsg?docId=5a5a54f344364ea8bd624615d1221f1b

[revelarts]

Just FYI

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/hawaii-verifies-obama-birth-records-arizona-082322680.html

Hawaii verifies Obama birth records to Arizona

A nearly three-month-long tussle between two states over President Obama's birth records may be at an end.
The state of Hawaii said late Tuesday it has provided verification of the president's birth to Arizona's secretary of state, who claimed he needed proof of Obama's citizenship before he could place his name on the state's November ballot.
Joshua Wisch, special assistant to Hawaii Attorney General David Louie, told The Associated Press (http://news.yahoo.com/hawaii-verifies-obamas-birth-records-arizona-044140295.html) that the matter is now resolved.
Hawaii didn't give in to the request quickly or easily, pressing Arizona Secretary of State Ken Bennett for proof that the records were needed as part of normal business.
Wisch said Hawaii got the necessary proof, so it sent Bennett's office the verification.
A spokesman for Bennett said he received Hawaii's verification and will comment Wednesday. It was not clear if the new information would satisfy Bennett or bring the dispute to a close.
In a radio interview last week, Bennett insisted he is "not a birther. I believe the president was born in Hawaii — or at least I hope he was."
But, he said, "my responsibility as secretary of state is to make sure the ballots in Arizona are correct and that those people whose names are on the ballot have met the qualifications for the office they are seeking."

[ConHog]

Just FYI

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/hawaii-verifies-obama-birth-records-arizona-082322680.html

Hawaii verifies Obama birth records to Arizona

A nearly three-month-long tussle between two states over President Obama's birth records may be at an end.
The state of Hawaii said late Tuesday it has provided verification of the president's birth to Arizona's secretary of state, who claimed he needed proof of Obama's citizenship before he could place his name on the state's November ballot.
Joshua Wisch, special assistant to Hawaii Attorney General David Louie, told The Associated Press (http://news.yahoo.com/hawaii-verifies-obamas-birth-records-arizona-044140295.html) that the matter is now resolved.
Hawaii didn't give in to the request quickly or easily, pressing Arizona Secretary of State Ken Bennett for proof that the records were needed as part of normal business.
Wisch said Hawaii got the necessary proof, so it sent Bennett's office the verification.
A spokesman for Bennett said he received Hawaii's verification and will comment Wednesday. It was not clear if the new information would satisfy Bennett or bring the dispute to a close.
In a radio interview last week, Bennett insisted he is "not a birther. I believe the president was born in Hawaii — or at least I hope he was."
But, he said, "my responsibility as secretary of state is to make sure the ballots in Arizona are correct and that those people whose names are on the ballot have met the qualifications for the office they are seeking."





The fact that AZ , a state that has had SEVERAL run ins with the Obama administration, is behind this doesn't bother you?

[ConHog]

Out of a spy novel alright, using fiction to manifest a typo into a conspiracy.. http://www.snopes.com (http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/birthers/ssn.asp)/politics/obama/birthers/ssn.asp

I had just read that, Seems as though a typo may have resulted in the wrong area code for his SSN.