What exactly did Jesus say about co-ed sports?

[Noir]

Gotta feel bad for the Catholic kids who've been forced to lose out on a possible championship because of some (IMO bizarre) 'rules'


As initially reported by the Arizona Republic, then followed upon by a variety of other Arizona and national sources, Phoenix (Ariz.) Our Lady of Sorrows Academy's baseball team decided to forfeit its scheduled Arizona Charter Athletic Association state championship matchup (http://www.azcentral.com/sports/preps/articles/2012/05/09/20120509school-balks-over-having-face-girl-state-title-game.html#ixzz1uUgB6Lbt) rather than face off against Mesa (Ariz.) Preparatory Academy, which features a second baseman named Paige Sultzbach (http://offthebench.nbcsports.com/2012/05/10/catholic-high-school-in-arizona-forfeits-baseball-championship-game-rather-than-play-a-team-with-a-girl-on-it/).

Because playing Mesa Prep would require competing against a team featuring a girl, Our Lady of Sorrows decided that playing the game would violate the school's mission to teach boys and girls separately (http://www.azcentral.com/sports/preps/articles/2012/05/09/20120509school-balks-over-having-face-girl-state-title-game.html#ixzz1uUgB6Lbt), as the school made clear in a statement on Thursday. The separation of the sexes is a key tenet of the Society of St. Pius X, a separatist branch of the Catholic Church of which Our Lady of Sorrows is a part.

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/highschool-prep-rally/lady-sorrows-ariz-baseball-team-forfeits-state-title-041333504.html

I'm sure this taught the Catholic kids a lot.

[jimnyc]

Gotta feel bad for the Catholic kids who've been forced to lose out on a possible championship because of some (IMO bizarre) 'rules'



http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/highschool-prep-rally/lady-sorrows-ariz-baseball-team-forfeits-state-title-041333504.html

I'm sure this taught the Catholic kids a lot.

I'm not going for or against. But the article I read the other day said that they go about things where they are never "against" women and are never to be aggressive towards them or in competition with them. They didn't want to go against their beliefs over a game. They apparently asked the other team if they would consider playing without her, they denied, and the Catholic school then forfeited.

And I wouldn't feel bad for them. I'm sure they feel that they stuck with their beliefs and that what they did was more important than a win.

I know it's hard for you to understand and comprehend Noir, and I understand that. But these kids have a right to attend religious schools and learn religious teachings and stick to their beliefs. If their belief leads to them sitting out a sporting event - I guess I can say that they feel strongly about their beliefs.

[cadet]

It's all about respect for women. Chivalry, despite mass opinion, is not quite dead.

[Noir]

I'm not going for or against. But the article I read the other day said that they go about things where they are never "against" women and are never to be aggressive towards them or in competition with them. They didn't want to go against their beliefs over a game. They apparently asked the other team if they would consider playing without her, they denied, and the Catholic school then forfeited.

And I wouldn't feel bad for them. I'm sure they feel that they stuck with their beliefs and that what they did was more important than a win.

I know it's hard for you to understand and comprehend Noir, and I understand that. But these kids have a right to attend religious schools and learn religious teachings and stick to their beliefs. If their belief leads to them sitting out a sporting event - I guess I can say that they feel strongly about their beliefs.

I wonder if there is ever any competition between male and female teachers when they are applying for positions to work within the school...

And i know it'll be hard for you to comprehend Jim, and i understand that. But i know these kids have the right to attend religious schools and learn religious teachings and stick to their beliefs. Doesn't mean you can't say the beliefs are (in this case) heavy handed.

[Noir]

It's all about respect for women. Chivalry, despite mass opinion, is not quite dead.

...you respect a woman by not playing against them when they want to play? If anything i'd say its more condescending than respectful.

[cadet]

...you respect a woman by not playing against them when they want to play? If anything i'd say its more condescending than respectful.

Let's be honest here, it's not fair for her. Guys TEND to be bigger then girls. (Unless they're like, a very manly woman *shudder*) So it doesn't leave it very fair for here.
And honestly, it's hard to do any sport without having the upper hand on the girl. hence, why here school had a softball team for girls.

(What are the chances of a guy making it on the softball team in her school? slim to none?)

[Noir]

Let's be honest here, it's not fair for her. Guys TEND to be bigger then girls. (Unless they're like, a very manly woman *shudder*) So it doesn't leave it very fair for here.
And honestly, it's hard to do any sport without having the upper hand on the girl. hence, why here school had a softball team for girls.

(What are the chances of a guy making it on the softball team in her school? slim to none?)

Not fair for her? Yup, definitely condescending. She (from what i've read) played damn well, and earned her place on a team full of boys, who played against teams full of boys, and the team she played on hadn't lost a game all season.

But yeah, i guess it wasn't fair on her that she'd have to play in a game against all those roughly-toughty boys, so it was only the honourable thing for them to refuse to play. /sark.

[cadet]

Not fair for her? Yup, definitely condescending. She (from what i've read) played damn well, and earned her place on a team full of boys, who played against teams full of boys, and the team she played on hadn't lost a game all season.

But yeah, i guess it wasn't fair on her that she'd have to play in a game against all those roughly-toughty boys, so it was only the honourable thing for them to refuse to play.

Now you're making me sound like i think of women as second class citizens.
NO!
I'm saying that, despite what culture is trying to say, BOYS AND GIRLS ARE DIFFERENT! We got's different parts.

It's male teams. for males to face each other. I don't go out and try for the volleyball team, WE ARE NOT THE SAME!

[Noir]

Now you're making me sound like i think of women as second class citizens.
NO!
I'm saying that, despite what culture is trying to say, BOYS AND GIRLS ARE DIFFERENT! We got's different parts.

It's male teams. for males to face each other. I don't go out and try for the volleyball team, WE ARE NOT THE SAME!

And the rules are that if the school doesn't offer a female sport, then the girls can apply to play in the guys teams.

The school she is at does not offer softball,
So she applied for base ball,
and has had a great season.

[ConHog]

Pathetic and sexist. What a piggy school. OINK OINK.

[fj1200]

I'm sure this taught the Catholic kids a lot.

Yes, to follow their mission.

[cadet]

And the rules are that if the school doesn't offer a female sport, then the girls can apply to play in the guys teams.

The school she is at does not offer softball,
So she applied for base ball,
and has had a great season.

Let me throw another view on this, their schools had played each other before, and this dilima had risen. They said they would forfeit, so she respectfully sat out. Twice.

But, knowing that they would forfeit, she stayed in. total, bitch.

Now, these boys, didn't see it as fair to play against a girl. I wouldn't want to play in a competitive sport with a girl, I wouldn't find it at all right. It's uncomfortable, and sometimes during sports, people get hurt. I'd hate to be the guy to accidentally hurt her.

[ConHog]

Let me throw another view on this, their schools had played each other before, and this dilima had risen. They said they would forfeit, so she respectfully sat out. Twice.

But, knowing that they would forfeit, she stayed in. total, bitch.

Now, these boys, didn't see it as fair to play against a girl. I wouldn't want to play in a competitive sport with a girl, I wouldn't find it at all right. It's uncomfortable, and sometimes during sports, people get hurt. I'd hate to be the guy to accidentally hurt her.

She's a bitch for wanting to play in the championship game that her team earned the right to play in?

Grow up little guy.

[cadet]

She's a bitch for wanting to play in the championship game that her team earned the right to play in?

Grow up little guy.

She KNEW they would forfeit. Unfair, completely unsportsmanship like.

[Noir]

Let me throw another view on this, their schools had played each other before, and this dilima had risen. They said they would forfeit, so she respectfully sat out. Twice.

But, knowing that they would forfeit, she stayed in. total, bitch.

Now, these boys, didn't see it as fair to play against a girl. I wouldn't want to play in a competitive sport with a girl, I wouldn't find it at all right. It's uncomfortable, and sometimes during sports, people get hurt. I'd hate to be the guy to accidentally hurt her.

The two previous times they played at the Catholic school, so she sat out the games to respect their grounds. The championship was being played at a neutral venue, so she wanted to play, and her coaching staff stuck with her on that.

As for not playing competently against girls - *condescending*

[ConHog]

She KNEW they would forfeit. Unfair, completely unsportsmanship like.



She didn't KNOW they would, and that's irrelevant anyway. She has a right to play. PERIOD

[Noir]

She KNEW they would forfeit. Unfair, completely unsportsmanship like.

Ironic much? :rolleyes:

Also just apply this argument in a different context to see how stupid it is -
Team A plays Team B
Team A has a player regarded as the best in the league, called player A.
Team B tell Team A that they will forfeit unless player A sits the game out.
Player A refuses to sit the game out.
Is player A being unsportsman like by wanting to play even when they knew Team B would forfeit if they did?

[fj1200]

She KNEW they would forfeit. Unfair, completely unsportsmanship like.

It was the championship game. It's unfair to expect her to sit out.

[ConHog]

It was the championship game. It's unfair to expect her to sit out.

And its really unfair, not to mention childish, to call her a bitch for wanting to play

[logroller]

I don't fault her team for keeping her on; but there's nothing wrong with a school preferring to segregate the sexes. The opposite sex can be distracting. That said, if I played a girl, and I have, no mercy--play to win.

[MtnBiker]

Weird, I have yet to see a boy play on the high school girls volleyball team. That is a "co-ed" sport, right?

[logroller]

Weird, I have yet to see a boy play on the high school girls volleyball team. That is a "co-ed" sport, right?

Maybe it has something to do with the uniform

3446 bottoms.

[Noir]

Weird, I have yet to see a boy play on the high school girls volleyball team. That is a "co-ed" sport, right?

I'm guessing because there re no schools with boys that don't offer a boys sport

[Nukeman]

She's a bitch for wanting to play in the championship game that her team earned the right to play in?

Grow up little guy.
Please tell me smart guy why did she sit out the other 2 times they faced each other?? Personaly I think its unfair to the boys teams that they allow girls on their teams, I don't EVER recall a boy being allowed to compete on a girls team becasue they "don't offer the sport".. why the double standard when this was supposed to be about equality???:poke:

[Nukeman]

She didn't KNOW they would, and that's irrelevant anyway. She has a right to play. PERIODYOU know that for a fact???? I will say she KNEW that they would forfiet, it was KNOWN that the school would NOT compete against a mixed team, in fact the school would call ahead to be sure there was NO CONFLICT of interest. So she knew PERIOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Easy win for her team in my opinion!!!!

I Think the school was well within their rights to forfiet and show the team that somethings like your convictions are more important than winning at all cost.. Or do you and Noir think they should just shuck their convictions out the window??

[Noir]

Please tell me smart guy why did she sit out the other 2 times they faced each other?? Personaly I think its unfair to the boys teams that they allow girls on their teams, I don't EVER recall a boy being allowed to compete on a girls team becasue they "don't offer the sport".. why the double standard when this was supposed to be about equality???:poke:

Because the previous 2 times they played they were playing on the grounds of the Catholic School, so she chose to sit them out, out of respect [sic] for their grounds. This championship game however was being played in a neutral ground, kinda simple really.

[Nukeman]

I'm guessing because there re no schools with boys that don't offer a boys sportYou forget Noir its not "a" sport but "the" sport they want to play. If a school does not offer boys vollyball than they should be allowed to play on the girls team just like if the school doesnt have girls football than the girl is allowed to play.. YOU can't have it both ways... ALL or nothing if you ask me, otherwise you are going against the intent of the law of "equality"

[Nukeman]

Because the previous 2 times they played they were playing on the grounds of the Catholic School, so she chose to sit them out, out of respect [sic] for their grounds. This championship game however was being played in a neutral ground, kinda simple really.Please excuse this Noir.. NO SHIT!!!!!!! we already determined that in a earlyer post, that does NOT change the fact that they would have refused to play her at ANY OTHER venue... She KNEW that they would forfiet so it really made sense for her coaches to "play" her for the easy win!!!!

[Noir]

You forget Noir its not "a" sport but "the" sport they want to play. If a school does not offer boys vollyball than they should be allowed to play on the girls team just like if the school doesnt have girls football than the girl is allowed to play.. YOU can't have it both ways... ALL or nothing if you ask me, otherwise you are going against the intent of the law of "equality"

True.

Though what people will say is that a boy playing on a girls team will give that team an advantage, or which the corollary is that a boys team that plays with a girl will be at a disadvantage.

and in any case, just in reference to the point of the OP, i haven't yet seen anyone quote anything biblical as to why girls and boys should not be able to play sports.

[Noir]

Please excuse this Noir.. NO SHIT!!!!!!! we already determined that in a earlyer post, that does NOT change the fact that they would have refused to play her at ANY OTHER venue... She KNEW that they would forfiet so it really made sense for her coaches to "play" her for the easy win!!!!

The coaches wanted an easy win for a team that had won every game they played this season, with or without her?

Also, i'd put this to yourself as well...

Also just apply this argument in a different context to see how stupid it is -
Team A plays Team B
Team A has a player regarded as the 'best in the league'*, called player A.
Team B tell Team A that they will forfeit unless player A sits the game out.
Player A refuses to sit the game out.
Is player A being unsportsman like by wanting to play even when they knew Team B would forfeit if they did?

*Replace with 'is a girl', 'is of a different religion', 'is of a different race or anything else you like.

[Nukeman]

True.

Though what people will say is that a boy playing on a girls team will give that team an advantage, or which the corollary is that a boys team that plays with a girl will be at a disadvantage.

and in any case, just in reference to the point of the OP, i haven't yet seen anyone quote anything biblical as to why girls and boys should not be able to play sports.WOW!!! Talk about a sexist remark, I mean after all this is about equality. Are you saying that a boy on a girls team gives them an advantage?? So does that mean a girl on a boys team makes them weaker?? Title IX is for equality of "women" only it doesn't ever go the other way.... Why is that???

[fj1200]

She KNEW that they would forfiet so it really made sense for her coaches to "play" her for the easy win!!!!

She shouldn't have to sit out because of an aberration of an opposing team's mission.

[Noir]

WOW!!! Talk about a sexist remark, I mean after all this is about equality. Are you saying that a boy on a girls team gives them an advantage?? So does that mean a girl on a boys team makes them weaker?? Title IX is for equality of "women" only it doesn't ever go the other way.... Why is that???

No, i am saying 'what people will say' regardless of whether you are a girl or a boy some people will be better than others. People would say that if a boy was to play on a girls team then the team they are playing against would be at a disadvantage, regardless of the boys ability (which is all that actually matters).

But anyways in the case of the OP i don't think anyone will have the opinion that the boys team was trying to have a sex based advantage by playing with a girl on the team.

[Nukeman]

She shouldn't have to sit out because of an aberration of an opposing team's mission.I agree with your point (except with the "aberration" part), however she and her coaching staff choose to sit out 2 other times to honor the other teams convictions, why the change of heart?? It was a stratigic move on her and her coaches part...

[cadet]

True.

Though what people will say is that a boy playing on a girls team will give that team an advantage, or which the corollary is that a boys team that plays with a girl will be at a disadvantage.

and in any case, just in reference to the point of the OP, i haven't yet seen anyone quote anything biblical as to why girls and boys should not be able to play sports.

The only biblical thing would be to respect women, stand up for them, etc.. It's nothing about religion, it's all about their morals when it comes to women.

[Noir]

The only biblical thing would be to respect women, stand up for them, etc.. It's nothing about religion, it's all about their morals when it comes to women.

And what happens when these boys meet women in the professional sphere, Respect them by not competing? Or do morals not mean as much in the workplace?

[fj1200]

I agree with your point (except with the "aberration" part), however she and her coaching staff choose to sit out 2 other times to honor the other teams convictions, why the change of heart?? It was a stratigic move on her and her coaches part...

"Aberration" because their mission is out of the norm. I believe it's been asked and answered as to why she sat out the other games and there shouldn't be an expectation that she would continue that in the ultimate game of the year. The onus is not on the competition to have players of opposing teams sacrifice their opportunities, it is on St. Pius X players, coaches, and parents to understand that they may have to make sacrifices to honor their own convictions.

[fj1200]

Gotta feel bad for the Catholic kids who've been forced to lose out on a possible championship because of some (IMO bizarre) 'rules'

You not eating meat because of some 'rule' is IMO 'bizarre.' Would you prefer that they abandon their conviction because it happens to be in the championship game; would you give them grief for religious hypocrisy? which would be worse in your opinion?

[ConHog]

YOU know that for a fact???? I will say she KNEW that they would forfiet, it was KNOWN that the school would NOT compete against a mixed team, in fact the school would call ahead to be sure there was NO CONFLICT of interest. So she knew PERIOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Easy win for her team in my opinion!!!!

I Think the school was well within their rights to forfiet and show the team that somethings like your convictions are more important than winning at all cost.. Or do you and Noir think they should just shuck their convictions out the window??
What? I'm fine, let them have their convictions, but just as they shouldn't be forced to go against their convictions and play boys against girls, that girl shouldn't be forced to do without because of THEIR convictions.


I will never EVER understand why so many don't understand that EVERYONE has rights. Not just those THEY agree with.

[Noir]

You not eating meat because of some 'rule' is IMO 'bizarre.' Would you prefer that they abandon their conviction because it happens to be in the championship game; would you give them grief for religious hypocrisy? which would be worse in your opinion?

I'd just like to know a) where the rule comes from and b) Where it ends?

edit - i mean, for example, it has been mentioned in this thread that its not done out of 'respect for women' does that mean that the schools that did play against the team with her in it don't respect woman?

[fj1200]

I'd just like to know a) where the rule comes from and b) Where it ends?

edit - i mean, for example, it has been mentioned in this thread that its not done out of 'respect for women' does that mean that the schools that did play against the team with her in it don't respect woman?

That doesn't answer he question. What's been mentioned is irrelevant as to what the school believes.

[Nukeman]

"Aberration" because their mission is out of the norm. I believe it's been asked and answered as to why she sat out the other games and there shouldn't be an expectation that she would continue that in the ultimate game of the year. The onus is not on the competition to have players of opposing teams sacrifice their opportunities, it is on St. Pius X players, coaches, and parents to understand that they may have to make sacrifices to honor their own convictions.
I think that did do that.... Don't you????:beer:

[Noir]

That doesn't answer he question. What's been mentioned is irrelevant as to what the school believes.

Well that was the point of my thread (hence the title).

[Nukeman]

What? I'm fine, let them have their convictions, but just as they shouldn't be forced to go against their convictions and play boys against girls, that girl shouldn't be forced to do without because of THEIR convictions.


I will never EVER understand why so many don't understand that EVERYONE has rights. Not just those THEY agree with.NO ONE has said anything about anothers RIGHTS... She and her coaching staff CHOOSE to sit out before, they set a precedent up to the final game!! Kind of lame if you ask me. No one says anything about RIGHTS

[Nukeman]

I'd just like to know a) where the rule comes from and b) Where it ends?

edit - i mean, for example, it has been mentioned in this thread that its not done out of 'respect for women' does that mean that the schools that did play against the team with her in it don't respect woman?
Here's my take on the girls in boys sports... THEY ARE A TARGET. Some boys on opposing teams will go out of their way to inflict harm and injur the girl on another team. The thought process is if they want to play with big boys they better be able to take it like a big boy..... if you're fine with that than good for you I am not!!!

[fj1200]

I think that did do that.... Don't you????:beer:

I do. I just don't think it's incumbent on the other school to live someone else's conviction.


Well that was the point of my thread (hence the title).

Your title was full of bias because of course Jesus said nothing about HS sports. The question I now pose is would you cry hypocrisy if they went back on their mission because it's the championship?

[fj1200]

Here's my take on the girls in boys sports... THEY ARE A TARGET. Some boys on opposing teams will go out of their way to inflict harm and injur the girl on another team. The thought process is if they want to play with big boys they better be able to take it like a big boy..... if you're fine with that than good for you I am not!!!

Baseball is, for the most part, a non-contact sport. If she's weak at second base then the batters are free to hit towards right field. We're not talking football here.

[Noir]

Here's my take on the girls in boys sports... THEY ARE A TARGET. Some boys on opposing teams will go out of their way to inflict harm and injur the girl on another team. The thought process is if they want to play with big boys they better be able to take it like a big boy..... if you're fine with that than good for you I am not!!!

...so the catholic school don't want their boys playing against a girl because they think their boys will go out of their way to try and injure the girl? Hm.

[jimnyc]

I wonder if there is ever any competition between male and female teachers when they are applying for positions to work within the school...

And i know it'll be hard for you to comprehend Jim, and i understand that. But i know these kids have the right to attend religious schools and learn religious teachings and stick to their beliefs. Doesn't mean you can't say the beliefs are (in this case) heavy handed.

Why not ask the players? From what I understand, they don't think so, and they think they did the right thing. Isn't that what really matters?

[Noir]

Your title was full of bias because of course Jesus said nothing about HS sports. The question I now pose is would you cry hypocrisy if they went back on their mission because it's the championship?

The literal title, yes, but not the implication of the title which should be obvious.

And i would rather someone be a hypocrite than lack common sense. After all everyone is a hypocrite (that's only common sense).

[jimnyc]

Pathetic and sexist. What a piggy school. OINK OINK.

I suppose it's also pathetic and sexist, when a little girl is playing football with the men, she catches a pass, and the men don't want to give her a crushing tackle like the would the other guys?

[Nukeman]

Baseball is, for the most part, a non-contact sport. If she's weak at second base then the batters are free to hit towards right field. We're not talking football here.
All sports can be contact at some point when you have 2 teams on a field. Wouldn't take much of a stretch for a big kid to plow into her to knowck the ball out of her mitt. Title IX was for equal opportunity, that means if they have 3 boys teams they need 3 girls teams, most schools go overboard for teh womens sports to be sure they don't fall afoul of Title IX.

[jimnyc]

I'm guessing because there re no schools with boys that don't offer a boys sport

And I'm betting the reverse is true as well. Almost ALL US schools that offer baseball offer softball - unless it's an all boys/girls school. Since this girl is on a baseball team, I'm assuming it's a regular school with both sports. So the guys in schools such as this should be able to join the softball teams? Would be rather unfair for the guys to join and hit homer after homer or run faster, no?

[fj1200]

The literal title, yes, but not the implication of the title which should be obvious.

And i would rather someone be a hypocrite than lack common sense. After all everyone is a hypocrite (that's only common sense).

Do a little research then. There is no lack of common sense here and no hypocrisy; they have a mission and they live it.

EDIT: Where is the lack of common sense?

[jimnyc]

What? I'm fine, let them have their convictions, but just as they shouldn't be forced to go against their convictions and play boys against girls, that girl shouldn't be forced to do without because of THEIR convictions.


I will never EVER understand why so many don't understand that EVERYONE has rights. Not just those THEY agree with.

Cool, then as pointed out already, the guys should have the same rights as her, and play softball and beat the crap out of the gals! (not literally)

[fj1200]

All sports can be contact at some point when you have 2 teams on a field. Wouldn't take much of a stretch for a big kid to plow into her to knowck the ball out of her mitt. Title IX was for equal opportunity, that means if they have 3 boys teams they need 3 girls teams, most schools go overboard for teh womens sports to be sure they don't fall afoul of Title IX.

I'm aware of Title IX, except that I thought it was IIX. :embarrassed: She plays second base, not catcher, but that is beside the point of the thread. If she weren't their best second basemen I'm sure she wouldn't be there.

[Trigg]

...so the catholic school don't want their boys playing against a girl because they think their boys will go out of their way to try and injure the girl? Hm.


Really?? Come on Noir, you're a better debater than this. No need to start twisting words.

You know good and well he wasn't talking about the catholic school on that post. :slap:



I hope that nucman and cadet realize that we have a GIRL kicker on OUR football team.

Now, I think boys should have boys teams and girls should have girls teams. I also think if a girl is going to play on a boys team than boys should be allowed to play on girls teams. It's only fair afterall and obviously if a boys beats out a girl for a position it means he's the best player, just like the girl beating out the other boys.

Of course then you could have 5 boys on a girls vollyball team playing against (possibly) all girls at another school. Would that be fair??? Maybe their should be quotas introduced, say, maybe only 2 opposit sex players on the team would be allowed.

[jimnyc]

I hope that nucman and cadet realize that we have a GIRL kicker on OUR football team.

Here's my point - suppose a kick goes bad, the ball flops, and she needs to pick it up. A 275lb lineman comes around the corner and completely levels her. She ends up in the hospital with a broken collarbone and a concussion.

Do you think there would be any backlash as a result of his way of playing against a girl?

[Nukeman]

Here's my point - suppose a kick goes bad, the ball flops, and she needs to pick it up. A 275lb lineman comes around the corner and completely levels her. She ends up in the hospital with a broken collarbone and a concussion.

Do you think there would be any backlash as a result of his way of playing against a girl?
Or the big guys says I'm not going to hit a girl and she runs with it, either way the guy is screwed for his decision, to either cream her or give her a pass. I looked up the Mesa Prep they have a ton of girl sports... No need for cross over!!

[jimnyc]

Or the big guys says I'm not going to hit a girl and she runs with it, either way the guy is screwed for his decision, to either cream her or give her a pass. I looked up the Mesa Prep they have a ton of girl sports... No need for cross over!!

Noir, and others, won't admit it, but I'll guarantee you that no self respecting person thinks a small women in football deserves to get creamed by a guy 3x her size. But that's what would happen if it were a guy instead, 2x her size. So if it's ok to "bend" or not want to cream the woman in football, I find it perfectly understandable that a religious school doesn't want to be in competition with women. I never saw them say that she doesn't have a right to play, or not a right to anything - just that THEY didn't want to go against their values and play against her.

I wonder if any of these guys from the school have girlfriends? And the point of that is - they may not believe in competing against women, but then 1/2 hour later they may want to walk hand in hand with a woman. It would show that they can love a woman, just that they feel "competition" isn't mean to be, at least between sexes. No different than the NFL not having women playing. They don't want to hurt them. MLB doesn't have women either.

Do you think the NFL's best linebackers think of equality, and say "bring on the women"? I'm a gambling man, and I'd bet that the best of the best on the defensive side of the field would never want to tackle a woman.

[revelarts]

Gotta feel bad for the Catholic kids who've been forced to lose out on a possible championship because of some (IMO bizarre) 'rules'



http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/highschool-prep-rally/lady-sorrows-ariz-baseball-team-forfeits-state-title-041333504.html

I'm sure this taught the Catholic kids a lot.

I think one thing you overlook is this is not the regular chatholic church but an off shoot with it's own rules in this.

ANd so let's see, the group has it's own rules. the parents knew this signing up. Some Amish never take photos, always dress in long skirts. etc..
It's their choice. sorry you don't approve Noir, but it's not your choice. and it's not abusive.
As far as the bible goes, on the matter like Nuke said it's about a principal more than a specific verse.
"Treat younger women as sisters," "don't lust after women" "But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh in regard to its lusts." "Favor is deceitful, and beauty is vain: but a woman that fears the LORD, she shall be praised."
and others directly and by example

Different groups and individuals go to different lengths to try to apply the principles. Too some it might seem extreme but the goals are thought to be more than worth the price.



I'd just like to know
a) where the rule comes from and
b) Where it ends?
Your trying to make it all fit into a neat package, but living it out is not that neat. The church has a rule that says no mixed sports playing, the principle for it has mentioned above and by others.

sure there are going to be some places where the principle and the outworking might get kinda klugee but they made the choice to stick by the rule to reinforce the principle.

As Long as everyone realizes it's the principle that matters. Men should respect women and visa versa, and the sports rule is a means to teach and enforce it.

I'd guess that if you where to make the rules for how students should to treat animals I'm sure some might think some of your rules we're extreme as well.

[ConHog]

And I'm betting the reverse is true as well. Almost ALL US schools that offer baseball offer softball - unless it's an all boys/girls school. Since this girl is on a baseball team, I'm assuming it's a regular school with both sports. So the guys in schools such as this should be able to join the softball teams? Would be rather unfair for the guys to join and hit homer after homer or run faster, no?



What's good for the goose is good for the gander, and in MOST schools you do have men on "women's" teams because for Title IX purposes cheer leading is classified as a woman's sports.

I seriously doubt there are any guys clamoring to play softball, but if there are and they can make the cut, let them play.

[jimnyc]

What's good for the goose is good for the gander, and in MOST schools you do have men on "women's" teams because for Title IX purposes cheer leading is classified as a woman's sports.

I seriously doubt there are any guys clamoring to play softball, but if there are and they can make the cut, let them play.

Maybe cheerleading, but I would LOVE for someone to show me instances where guys are on all girls softball teams. Just doesn't happen. They'll be told to try out for baseball.

[ConHog]

Noir, and others, won't admit it, but I'll guarantee you that no self respecting person thinks a small women in football deserves to get creamed by a guy 3x her size. But that's what would happen if it were a guy instead, 2x her size. So if it's ok to "bend" or not want to cream the woman in football, I find it perfectly understandable that a religious school doesn't want to be in competition with women. I never saw them say that she doesn't have a right to play, or not a right to anything - just that THEY didn't want to go against their values and play against her.

I wonder if any of these guys from the school have girlfriends? And the point of that is - they may not believe in competing against women, but then 1/2 hour later they may want to walk hand in hand with a woman. It would show that they can love a woman, just that they feel "competition" isn't mean to be, at least between sexes. No different than the NFL not having women playing. They don't want to hurt them. MLB doesn't have women either.

Do you think the NFL's best linebackers think of equality, and say "bring on the women"? I'm a gambling man, and I'd bet that the best of the best on the defensive side of the field would never want to tackle a woman.



Oh, horse hockey. men don't want to compete against them has nothing to do with it. There are no women in the NFL because there are no women who are big enough, fast enough, strong enough to compete. Same reason there are no old men playing. Old men aren't big enough, fast enough or strong enough to compete; and so no one hires them.

[ConHog]

Maybe cheerleading, but I would LOVE for someone to show me instances where guys are on all girls softball teams. Just doesn't happen. They'll be told to try out for baseball.



Possibly they would, but there isn't really a rule per se that says they can't play softball. I sure would love to see the numbers on how many dudes have wanted to play high school softball though. lol

[jimnyc]

Oh, horse hockey. men don't want to compete against them has nothing to do with it. There are no women in the NFL because there are no women who are big enough, fast enough, strong enough to compete. Same reason there are no old men playing. Old men aren't big enough, fast enough or strong enough to compete; and so no one hires them.

There are kickers in HS and in college, and some that kick better than men. They simply won't get drafted or signed. And it's EXACTLY for the reason I state. Team would LOVE to have an accurate kicker, but they wouldn't love the backlash that would come with completely obliterating the kicker if she makes a mistake.

[ConHog]

There are kickers in HS and in college, and some that kick better than men. They simply won't get drafted or signed. And it's EXACTLY for the reason I state. Team would LOVE to have an accurate kicker, but they wouldn't love the backlash that would come with completely obliterating the kicker if she makes a mistake.



Name some NFL quality female kickers.


I'll wait.

[jimnyc]

Possibly they would, but there isn't really a rule per se that says they can't play softball. I sure would love to see the numbers on how many dudes have wanted to play high school softball though. lol

Let me ask you this - why don't you think schools save money and just choose on or the other? Why bother having separate sports? The whole idea is to separate the sexes playing sports. It's the same reason that in tennis - a very popular sport where Noir is from - the sexes almost always only play against one another - from the high school level all the way up to professional. Is that wrong?

[jimnyc]

Name some NFL quality female kickers.


I'll wait.

You're proving my point. There AREN'T any, because no team is going to want a woman on their team, as it'll give them a HUGE backlash the first time she gets creamed and injured. While there are a handful in college, and more in HS, that's about as far as it goes for them.

[ConHog]

Let me ask you this - why don't you think schools save money and just choose on or the other? Why bother having separate sports? The whole idea is to separate the sexes playing sports. It's the same reason that in tennis - a very popular sport where Noir is from - the sexes almost always only play against one another - from the high school level all the way up to professional. Is that wrong?

No, the whole idea is NOT to separate the sexes actually. The whole idea is to give equal opportunities. Now because of obvious physical differences there aren't going to be many women who are capable of competing in men's sports, even at the high school level, so we have women's teams. Not because we don't want women playing with men but because women weren't getting the opportunity to play any sport when it was only men's sports.

You're right, the sexes usually do only play against each other, because as a matter of course most of the time the men physically dominate the women. I mean can you imagine if Shaq had played in the WNBA, for instance. He would have averaged 100 points and killed someone.

But that doesn't mean that when you DO have a woman who comes along who is good enough to play with the guys, you don't give her a shot. Speaking of tennis, remember the famous Battle of the Sexes from the 70s? Who won that? Oh that's right, but it took a pretty special female player to do it.

[jimnyc]

No, the whole idea is NOT to separate the sexes actually. The whole idea is to give equal opportunities. Now because of obvious physical differences there aren't going to be many women who are capable of competing in men's sports, even at the high school level, so we have women's teams. Not because we don't want women playing with men but because women weren't getting the opportunity to play any sport when it was only men's sports.

You're right, the sexes usually do only play against each other, because as a matter of course most of the time the men physically dominate the women. I mean can you imagine if Shaq had played in the WNBA, for instance. He would have averaged 100 points and killed someone.

But that doesn't mean that when you DO have a woman who comes along who is good enough to play with the guys, you don't give her a shot. Speaking of tennis, remember the famous Battle of the Sexes from the 70s? Who won that? Oh that's right, but it took a pretty special female player to do it.

And maybe the bold is how the school feels and they don't bend on their principles. If they do, then when the football team plays another who has a 4'9 95lb girl playing - how do they treat her? If differently, then it would be wrong to some. If you welcome playing against one then you should accept playing against all. It would be retarded to expect a school to determine if they'll play against another team with a girl on their team, on a case by case basis, depending on whether or not the girl is "good" or big enough. This is why they likely have a rule, to remain true to their principles and remain fair, even if the girl happens to be good.

And I think MANY of the women tennis players are better than the men. MANY of the women soccer players are as good as the men. MANY women basketball players are as good as some men.... You get the point. If they are good enough, then they shouldn't have separate sex sports and they should all allow both sexes to participate in both leagues. But you won't see many complain about that. They only complain if a Catholic school decides to do the same thing college sports and up do.

[logroller]

I'd just like to know a) where the rule comes from and b) Where it ends?

edit - i mean, for example, it has been mentioned in this thread that its not done out of 'respect for women' does that mean that the schools that did play against the team with her in it don't respect woman?

I think the answer to your question is more broad than the question frames it. You're asking, what is the root of gender roles? That's a cultural issue, and while religion interacts and promotes culture, it's not the sole determinant. Sport has long been the dominion of man; ever since man was the hunter, the woman the gatherer, there has been a separation. The past century has seen women integrated into sport and other male-dominated activities; this signifies a cultural shift. Consideration of this would include population demographics, regional economic surplus brought about by technology like contraception etc etc; not just Jesus and Christianity.
I started a thread illustrating the pitfalls of framing a question to illicit a narrow response(who's smarter...) thoughi believe you're espoused to break up outdated cultural practice; such a narrow consideration of the determinant cause is disingenuous to the broader implication of equality and liberty.

[ConHog]

And maybe the bold is how the school feels and they don't bend on their principles. If they do, then when the football team plays another who has a 4'9 95lb girl playing - how do they treat her? If differently, then it would be wrong to some. If you welcome playing against one then you should accept playing against all. It would be retarded to expect a school to determine if they'll play against another team with a girl on their team, on a case by case basis, depending on whether or not the girl is "good" or big enough. This is why they likely have a rule, to remain true to their principles and remain fair, even if the girl happens to be good.

And I think MANY of the women tennis players are better than the men. MANY of the women soccer players are as good as the men. MANY women basketball players are as good as some men.... You get the point. If they are good enough, then they shouldn't have separate sex sports and they should all allow both sexes to participate in both leagues. But you won't see many complain about that. They only complain if a Catholic school decides to do the same thing college sports and up do.



Okay, so let's assume this girl was NOT good enough to play on that team, shouldn't it be THEIR choice to play with a disadvantage? I mean I can definitely see where competition wise a woman's team wouldn't want to face 7' tall dude playing center, but in the reverse, there is no competitive advantage here.

[MtnBiker]

Well that was the point of my thread (hence the title).

The title of the thread is fundamentally flawed. This is not a co-ed sport event. This is a boys sport event that one team chose to make an exception.

You ask what would Jesus say, he would probably advise on framing the question honestly.

[ConHog]

The title of the thread is fundamentally flawed. This is not a co-ed sport event. This is a boys sport event that one team chose to make an exception.

You ask what would Jesus say, he would probably advise on framing the question honestly.

One thing I'm SURE Jesus wouldn't say is "fuck you bitch, why didn't you volunteer to sit out this time to?"

[MtnBiker]

One thing I'm SURE Jesus wouldn't say is "fuck you bitch, why didn't you volunteer to sit out this time to?"

That still does not make the representation that this is a co-ed sport event valid.

[ConHog]

That still does not make the representation that this is a co-ed sport event valid.



True enough, but some are also dishonestly trying to portray this as a debate about whether girls should get to play boy's sports. That's not the topic. What's done is done. What the topic is is " Is the girl wrong for refusing to sit out the championship game that she was entitled under the current rules to play in?" I think the answer is a clear no.

If you guys want to debate whether she should have been there in the first place, start a thread.

[logroller]

One thing I'm SURE Jesus wouldn't say is "fuck you bitch, why didn't you volunteer to sit out this time to?"
Of course not; He probably spoke in Hebrew or Latin.

True enough, but some are also dishonestly trying to portray this as a debate about whether girls should get to play boy's sports. That's not the topic. What's done is done. What the topic is is " Is the girl wrong for refusing to sit out the championship game that she was entitled under the current rules to play in?" I think the answer is a clear no.

If you guys want to debate whether she should have been there in the first place, start a thread.
Oh. See I thought the subject of this thread was "why are Christians oppressive assholes?"

[jimnyc]

True enough, but some are also dishonestly trying to portray this as a debate about whether girls should get to play boy's sports. That's not the topic. What's done is done. What the topic is is " Is the girl wrong for refusing to sit out the championship game that she was entitled under the current rules to play in?" I think the answer is a clear no.

If you guys want to debate whether she should have been there in the first place, start a thread.

I believe the topic was about the team that chose to sit rather than play 'in competition' with a team that has a girl playing. I think one person stated she should have sat. I don't think she should have sat the game out, but at the same time I don't think what the religious school did was wrong, I think it was quite admirable. They chose principles over trophies.

[ConHog]

I believe the topic was about the team that chose to sit rather than play 'in competition' with a team that has a girl playing. I think one person stated she should have sat. I don't think she should have sat the game out, but at the same time I don't think what the religious school did was wrong, I think it was quite admirable. They chose principles over trophies.



I agree with you 100%, I only objected to those who called her a bitch for playing.