Hitler's damaging mistakes

[gabosaurus]

I read a couple of books and did some research for a thesis I wrote for a History of 20th Century Germany class. One was written by an author who has spent most of his life studying the subject.
It is pretty scary to realize how close the Germans came to winning World War II. Hitler actually had a plan to blockade the United States, which he could have easily pulled off if the Germans had defeated the English. Hitler was also negotiating with Mexico.
Fortunately for us, Hitler had delusions of grandeur as well as extreme paranoia. He refused to destroy the Allies at Dunkirk and let up on the bombing of London. He attacked Russia instead of invading England, which he could have pulled off.
History is an awesome study. :cool:

[Kathianne]

I read a couple of books and did some research for a thesis I wrote for a History of 20th Century Germany class. One was written by an author who has spent most of his life studying the subject.
It is pretty scary to realize how close the Germans came to winning World War II. Hitler actually had a plan to blockade the United States, which he could have easily pulled off if the Germans had defeated the English. Hitler was also negotiating with Mexico.
Fortunately for us, Hitler had delusions of grandeur as well as extreme paranoia. He refused to destroy the Allies at Dunkirk and let up on the bombing of London. He attacked Russia instead of invading England, which he could have pulled off.
History is an awesome study. :cool:

Really? :laugh2:

[gabosaurus]

Just trying to enlighten you. Since it is unlikely any of this will ever be discussed on Fox.

[MtnBiker]

Did those books mention this guy?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amin_al-Husayni

[gabosaurus]

Of course, the Muslims have to be associated with Hitler. :cheers2:

I am sure he was one of many who negotiated with Hitler. Only thing is, Hitler did not appreciate anyone who was not Germanic. He was deeply anti-religious.

Is that all you have to contribute, another slap at Muslims?

[Dilloduck]

Just trying to enlighten you. Since it is unlikely any of this will ever be discussed on Fox.

Has it ever occurred to you that the people you are trying to "enlighten" have known and studied material like this for years ? :slap:

[Said1]

Has it ever occurred to you that the people you are trying to "enlighten" have known and studied material like this for years ? :slap:

B-b-ut, she took a class. A CLASS!!

[nevadamedic]

I read a couple of books and did some research for a thesis I wrote for a History of 20th Century Germany class. One was written by an author who has spent most of his life studying the subject.
It is pretty scary to realize how close the Germans came to winning World War II. Hitler actually had a plan to blockade the United States, which he could have easily pulled off if the Germans had defeated the English. Hitler was also negotiating with Mexico.
Fortunately for us, Hitler had delusions of grandeur as well as extreme paranoia. He refused to destroy the Allies at Dunkirk and let up on the bombing of London. He attacked Russia instead of invading England, which he could have pulled off.
History is an awesome study. :cool:

Hitler almost beat us in making the Atomic Bomb, and would have suceeded if we didn't knock out the production facility that was making all the materials needed for the bomb. If he would have gotten the bomb first he would have won the war, and we would have been toast. He also was getting ready to launch a major bombing offense on the United States.

[Dilloduck]

B-b-ut, she took a class. A CLASS!!

My mistake---any learning should be rewarded !!! :dance:

[MtnBiker]

Is that all you have to contribute, another slap at Muslims?


Pointing out an historical figure is a slap at Muslims?

[musicman]

Enjoy, Gabby. WWII is an addicting topic; I've devoured everything I can get my hands on pertaining to it, all my life. May I suggest, as some reading you can do for your own enjoyment, "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich", by William P. Shirer. It's a BIG bastard - about 600 pages, as I recall. I confess I started by just jumping around. Problem with that is, there's not a dull page IN it! It is the inside story of Nazi Germany, told from the point of view of the people who were there. You get all the whys and wherefores; I bet you won't be able to put it down!

[Kathianne]

Just trying to enlighten you. Since it is unlikely any of this will ever be discussed on Fox.

LOL, you were lucky to have a class, since you couldn't have caught that on CNN or any network. Don't you know that bringing up Hitler, other than comparisons to GW is forbidden?

[avatar4321]

Enjoy, Gabby. WWII is an addicting topic; I've devoured everything I can get my hands on pertaining to it, all my life. May I suggest, as some reading you can do for your own enjoyment, "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich", by William P. Shirer. It's a BIG bastard - about 600 pages, as I recall. I confess I started by just jumping around. Problem with that is, there's not a dull page IN it! It is the inside story of Nazi Germany, told from the point of view of the people who were there. You get all the whys and wherefores; I bet you won't be able to put it down!

only 600 pages?

[avatar4321]

Just trying to enlighten you. Since it is unlikely any of this will ever be discussed on Fox.

You realize that Ollie North has a Show on Fox about war frequently dont you?

[Hugh Lincoln]

So Hitler lost, and the next half-century had the West pitted against communism and the Soviet threat. Now England, so brave against those Germans, falls to its knees for the Muslims. The U.S., so willing to shoot the krauts, is now run by Jews and overrun by Hispanics.

This was a victory? I'm supposed to heap scorn on a man who actually took a stand for white gentiles, while my son can't go to college because he's white and I can't get directions at the gas station because nobody there speaks my language? And the President of the United States favors the Jews of Manhattan and the Mexicans of Texas over me and mine?

Hey, fuck all that, yo. Maybe Hitler was right. Maybe he was the good guy. Maybe the Jews were the bad guys, eh? Maybe these weak, self-serving, lying little pieces of shit like Bush, Cheney, McCain & Kennedy are small indeed next to Adolf Hitler. Maybe, when I walk down Jamaica Avenue and two black teenagers walk by and tell me I'm a "white boy," it's hard to stay on message with the whole "Nazis are evil" thing. Evil for who? My enemies? Great! Those kick-ass weapons, those kick-ass uniforms, the technology, the Aryan mythology, the runes, the heart-pounding swastika... I mean for God's sake, it's a little SYMBOL and it makes people crap their pants! You know you have some badasses on the block when their little symbols are enough to knock you flat. Ha! And let's face it, folks, the Nazis/Germans/Aryans/whatever were HOT. Look at those beautiful blonde women! And these guys, they built the PORSCHE! Tell me that car ain't cool. It's un-fucking-deniable! And it was all for white kind! Ah! Yes, it's true. You aren't supposed to think about Hitler as good or Nazis as cool. I know, I know. But I'm going to because I'm free.

Bottom line is that people all over get what happens when whites get ready to fucking rock, and the Nazis, bitches, were ready to rock. That's why whites are feared. Because we may sometimes be geeky. You can make fun of us for being uptight. And all that. But underneath lies a terror you know will wipe it clean. Blacks cannot raise this. Hispanics, no sir. These guys can act like tough gangsters and do a little individual violence. But the white war machine will DESTROY all comers. Now come on, white people... where is this spirit today? We don't have to kill 'em all, but just knowing we can should be enough to fight back a little, eh? Right now you're afraid to say "black" instead of "African-American," and inside you is a warrior who can stand tall if he just WILLS IT? Dudes!

[Mr. P]

Enjoy, Gabby. WWII is an addicting topic; I've devoured everything I can get my hands on pertaining to it, all my life. May I suggest, as some reading you can do for your own enjoyment, "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich", by William P. Shirer. It's a BIG bastard - about 600 pages, as I recall. I confess I started by just jumping around. Problem with that is, there's not a dull page IN it! It is the inside story of Nazi Germany, told from the point of view of the people who were there. You get all the whys and wherefores; I bet you won't be able to put it down!

Be sure to watch for the next Ken Burns documentary "War" coming this fall on PBS. From the little clip I've seen it looks like it may focus on WWII not sure though.

[musicman]

Be sure to watch for the next Ken Burns documentary "War" coming this fall on PBS. From the little clip I've seen it looks like it may focus on WWII not sure though.

I'll do that, Mr. P - thanks!

[musicman]

only 600 pages?

LOL - truthfully, I remember it being more like 700+, but - being me - any guess I make is going to be...well - CONSERVATIVE. It comes with the membership, I guess - right along with the dog-eared copies of "1984" and "Slouching Towards Gomorrah" - ha ha!

[Abbey Marie]

I read a couple of books and did some research for a thesis I wrote for a History of 20th Century Germany class. One was written by an author who has spent most of his life studying the subject.
It is pretty scary to realize how close the Germans came to winning World War II. Hitler actually had a plan to blockade the United States, which he could have easily pulled off if the Germans had defeated the English. Hitler was also negotiating with Mexico.
Fortunately for us, Hitler had delusions of grandeur as well as extreme paranoia. He refused to destroy the Allies at Dunkirk and let up on the bombing of London. He attacked Russia instead of invading England, which he could have pulled off.
History is an awesome study. :cool:

I'll bet most of us who didn't live through it don't realize how close he came.
Interesting topic, Gabby.

[loosecannon]

I'll bet most of us who didn't live through it don't realize how close he came.
Interesting topic, Gabby.

Fascist coups succeeded in overthrowing the German and Italian Governments in the 30's.

But a fascist coup failed in the US in the same period.

We came closer than you might think. But Hitler was not the real threat. Hitler could never have extended into the Americas without completely assimilating Eurasia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_Plot


The Business Plot, The Plot Against FDR, or The White House Putsch, was an uncovered conspiracy plot involving several wealthy businessmen to overthrow President Franklin D. Roosevelt in 1933.

Purported details of the matter came to light when retired Marine Corps Major General Smedley Butler testified before a Congressional committee that a group of men had attempted to recruit him to serve as the leader of a plot and to assume and wield power once the coup was successful. Butler testified before the McCormack-Dickstein Committee in 1934 . In his testimony, Butler claimed that a group of several men had approached him as part of a plot to overthrow Roosevelt in a military coup. One of the alleged plotters, Gerald MacGuire, vehemently denied any such plot. In their final report, the Congressional committee supported Butler's allegations on the existence of the plot, but no prosecutions or further investigations followed, and the matter was mostly forgotten.



sweep that under the rug! And sweep the K Bros. under too. Nothing to see here, carry on.

[gabosaurus]

It's not just a "class." It's a lifetime of interest. Sparked by the fact that all my maternal ancestors are German. Some fought in WWII. I have been to Germany and seen some of the battlefields.

Hitler could have easily won World War II. His organization was frighteningly efficient. He had treaties with the Russians and the Japanese. Germany and Russia would have shared control of Europe. Japan would have controlled Asia. Hitler was negotiating a treaty with Mexico. Germany and Japan were planning a blockade of the U.S. and Canada.
A network of German sympathizers was already in place. Once the economic chaos began, there would have been open revolt. Hitler was already planning "extermination camps" in England and the U.S.
Some historians theorize that the U.S. would have been the battleground if Hitler decided to pick a fight with the Japanese.

[nevadamedic]

Fascist coups succeeded in overthrowing the German and Italian Governments in the 30's.

But a fascist coup failed in the US in the same period.

We came closer than you might think. But Hitler was not the real threat. Hitler could never have extended into the Americas without completely assimilating Eurasia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_Plot



sweep that under the rug! And sweep the K Bros. under too. Nothing to see here, carry on.

He would have if he obtained the Atomic Bomb before we did.

[Dilloduck]

Hitler could have easily won World War II.

Maybe, if he wasn't an insane drug addict. The Nazis' had put the nuclear projects on hold, realizing it would take too much time and effort while allied and soviet troops were bearing down on them. Breaking the treaty with Russia wasn't the most brilliant thing he ever came up with either.

[Mr. P]

Maybe, if he wasn't an insane drug addict. The Nazis' had put the nuclear projects on hold, realizing it would take too much time and effort while allied and soviet troops were bearing down on them. Breaking the treaty with Russia wasn't the most brilliant thing he ever came up with either.

I believe one of the reasons they put the Nuc program on hold was because we successfully stole several of their top scientist to work on our program.

I remember reading about some secret project dedicated to doing just that...I forgot the name though.

[Gaffer]

LOL - truthfully, I remember it being more like 700+, but - being me - any guess I make is going to be...well - CONSERVATIVE. It comes with the membership, I guess - right along with the dog-eared copies of "1984" and "Slouching Towards Gomorrah" - ha ha!

I'm terrible with remembering author names. But two more to look into are "Rising Sun" and "1942 the year that doomed the Axis".

I don't think I have Rise and fall any more. I have read it and seems to me it was closer to 900 pages.

The Germans had lost most of the best nuclear scientists before and right at the start of the war. Because those scientists were jews.

[Gunny]

He would have if he obtained the Atomic Bomb before we did.

Disagree. He did not have the means to deliver a nuclear bomb. He also had no long-range, heavy duty bombers. His bomber fleet was medium and light bombers suitable to blitzkrieg warfare, and most were onsolete by 1943. Hi sNavy was nonexistent so he couldn't have even pulled off a Jimmy Doolittle on the US.

Hitler's fatal error was attacking Russia. He had Stalin duped into thinking they were allies, and he could concentrate all his forces in assaulting England.

He screwed up during the Battle of Britain when some Brits bombed Berlin and he switched from destroying the RAF to bombing London. He prety much had decimated the RAF at that point. He inadvertently gave England a reprieve.

However, to attack the US with the weapons he had, even if he had the bomb, he'd have had to have a base in this hemisphere to attack from.

[Gunny]

I read a couple of books and did some research for a thesis I wrote for a History of 20th Century Germany class. One was written by an author who has spent most of his life studying the subject.
It is pretty scary to realize how close the Germans came to winning World War II. Hitler actually had a plan to blockade the United States, which he could have easily pulled off if the Germans had defeated the English. Hitler was also negotiating with Mexico.
Fortunately for us, Hitler had delusions of grandeur as well as extreme paranoia. He refused to destroy the Allies at Dunkirk and let up on the bombing of London. He attacked Russia instead of invading England, which he could have pulled off.
History is an awesome study. :cool:

Hitler did not refuse to destroy the allies at Dunkirk. His forces were unable, aided by one of modern history's most spectacular rescue efforts by any Englishman that owned something that would float.

Are you sure you don't have Hitler mixed up with Kaiser Wilhelm? Kaiser Wilhelm negotiated with Mexico during WWI. I don't recall coming across anything that stated Hitler even made an attempt. Mexicans would be considered rather subhuman to Hitler.

[nevadamedic]

Be sure to watch for the next Ken Burns documentary "War" coming this fall on PBS. From the little clip I've seen it looks like it may focus on WWII not sure though.

Do you like documentaries? I have ordered over the past year a ton of them through Boarders. You can order anything they have online at their website and have it shipped to the store for free. If your want some reccomendations I can give you a list o names of the ones that were good.

[nevadamedic]

Disagree. He did not have the means to deliver a nuclear bomb. He also had no long-range, heavy duty bombers. His bomber fleet was medium and light bombers suitable to blitzkrieg warfare, and most were onsolete by 1943. Hi sNavy was nonexistent so he couldn't have even pulled off a Jimmy Doolittle on the US.

Hitler's fatal error was attacking Russia. He had Stalin duped into thinking they were allies, and he could concentrate all his forces in assaulting England.

He screwed up during the Battle of Britain when some Brits bombed Berlin and he switched from destroying the RAF to bombing London. He prety much had decimated the RAF at that point. He inadvertently gave England a reprieve.

However, to attack the US with the weapons he had, even if he had the bomb, he'd have had to have a base in this hemisphere to attack from.

One of the documentaries I watched was about Hitler trying to get the A-Bomb. It said that if they completed the technology they would have been able to hit us with it. The has rockets that could just about reach out country and they said it was just a matter of time before he could have had those up and running as well.

[musicman]

I'm terrible with remembering author names. But two more to look into are "Rising Sun" and "1942 the year that doomed the Axis".

I don't think I have Rise and fall any more. I have read it and seems to me it was closer to 900 pages.

Holey moley - that's more like THREE books!


The Germans had lost most of the best nuclear scientists before and right at the start of the war. Because those scientists were jews.

Ironic, isn't it?

[nevadamedic]

Maybe, if he wasn't an insane drug addict. The Nazis' had put the nuclear projects on hold, realizing it would take too much time and effort while allied and soviet troops were bearing down on them. Breaking the treaty with Russia wasn't the most brilliant thing he ever came up with either.

I never saw anything about drugs, what kind of drugs?

[nevadamedic]

I believe one of the reasons they put the Nuc program on hold was because we successfully stole several of their top scientist to work on our program.

I remember reading about some secret project dedicated to doing just that...I forgot the name though.

Yup, they came to work on the Manhatten Project.

[gabosaurus]

The Germans could have destroyed the Allied beachhead at Dunkirk before any type of flotilla could have been organized. The German generals were begging for air strikes. Hitler simply didn't think it was worthwhile. He felt that leaving the Allies on the beach humiliated them. He didn't count on the massive flotilla that ensured.
I believe the German plan to control Mexico was called "Operation Felix." There were also plans to control the Panama Canal and Greenland, which would have cut off shipping routes. German forces outnumbered the British almost 20-to-1 in Egypt, yet Hitler never thought of seizing control of the Suez Canal.
In the latter stages of the war, the Germans were developing aircraft that could bomb cities on the U.S. east coast, including Washington D.C. and New York City. German U-boats came within 100 miles of the coast and could have made huge raids on our coastal cities.

[MtnBiker]

I cannot help but notice gabosaurus's presented perspective is that Hitler and Germany made blunders to lose the war (which certianly happened to a point) rather than credit the Allies for action they did right.

[gabosaurus]

I cannot help but notice gabosaurus's presented perspective is that Hitler and Germany made blunders to lose the war (which certianly happened to a point) rather than credit the Allies for action they did right.

Countless volumes have been written about how the Allies won the war. Very little has been written about how the Allies almost did not have the chance.
My perspective comes from my German heritage. I want to know how my relatives lived and what they went through.

I had some great discussions in college with a guy who was Japanese. He has devoted much of his life to studying the Japanese side of the war.
Until then, I had no ideas that American POWs died in the A-bomb attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Or that the Japanese were determined to defend their country to the last person. There have been historical studies about the prospective U.S. invasion of the Japanese home islands. The casualties would have included over a million U.S. soldiers and more than half of the Japanese population.

It's fascinating stuff. I truly love studying World War II.

[MtnBiker]

I can agree with alot of that. Certianly both the Allies and Axis powers had their advantages and disadvantages.

I find it interesting that you point out the possible causualty count with the invasion of mainland Japan. That is one of the justifications of the A-Bomb being used.

[Gaffer]

Countless volumes have been written about how the Allies won the war. Very little has been written about how the Allies almost did not have the chance.
My perspective comes from my German heritage. I want to know how my relatives lived and what they went through.

I had some great discussions in college with a guy who was Japanese. He has devoted much of his life to studying the Japanese side of the war.
Until then, I had no ideas that American POWs died in the A-bomb attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Or that the Japanese were determined to defend their country to the last person. There have been historical studies about the prospective U.S. invasion of the Japanese home islands. The casualties would have included over a million U.S. soldiers and more than half of the Japanese population.

It's fascinating stuff. I truly love studying World War II.

Look for a book called "1942 the year that doomed the Axis". It discusses what the Germans did wrong and the Allies did right. Hitler insisted on controling everything involving the war in 1942 and that is where it all started falling apart for him. No general could make a decission without his personal approval.

The Japanese had a theocratic type of government. The emporer was god. Bushito taught that dying for the emporer was a ticket to heaven. Similar to islamists today. It had been ingrained in the Japanese culture for over a hundred years. While the eduacted and elitist of the government did not believe any of this the general population did. This is why there were so few jap prisoners during the island hopping campaigns.

An island invaded by Marines with 5000 defenders would end up with 5 prisoners being taken. And those were usually wounded and unable to fight. So the idea it would mean a million casualties to invade Japan was a very good estimate. And the population would have had to be almost totally wiped out.

Unfortunately those two nukes we dropped were the only ones we had at the time. Though more were in the works. I'm pretty sure there would have been more dropped on the mainland after the invasion began.

[Kathianne]

Countless volumes have been written about how the Allies won the war. Very little has been written about how the Allies almost did not have the chance.
My perspective comes from my German heritage. I want to know how my relatives lived and what they went through.

I had some great discussions in college with a guy who was Japanese. He has devoted much of his life to studying the Japanese side of the war.
Until then, I had no ideas that American POWs died in the A-bomb attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Or that the Japanese were determined to defend their country to the last person. There have been historical studies about the prospective U.S. invasion of the Japanese home islands. The casualties would have included over a million U.S. soldiers and more than half of the Japanese population.

It's fascinating stuff. I truly love studying World War II.


Gabby, you are making the argument that Truman had to in defense of dropping the bomb. It was well known that the Japanese were willing to go to the 'last man, woman, child.'

[gabosaurus]

I find it interesting that there is continued criticism in some camps about Truman's decision to drop A-bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Far more Japanese died in the fire bombing of Tokyo than by both bombs combined.
MacArthur was totally against using the atomic bombs prior to an invasion. He misunderstood their power and significance. MacArthur wanted bombs dropped as part of an invasion.
Documents seized after the war showed that the Japanese were aware of most of our invasion plans. That had a defense strategy that the U.S. never envisioned.
The atomic bombs were totally necessary. Truman issued a pair of ultimatums, one before Hiroshima and one after. Japan ignored both of them. The Japanese military did not want to surrender after Nagasaki. They only relented on direct orders from Hirohito.

I have always wondered what would have happened after Germany won WWII. Hitler was growing increasing psychotic and paranoid. He also had some pretty serious illnesses. There is no doubt that he would have died before the end of the 1940s. Who would have assumed control?

[Gunny]

One of the documentaries I watched was about Hitler trying to get the A-Bomb. It said that if they completed the technology they would have been able to hit us with it. The has rockets that could just about reach out country and they said it was just a matter of time before he could have had those up and running as well.

Hitler was indeed pursuing the atomic bomb. His rockets could not reach the Continental US, and they were not very accurate. The guidance system was rudimentary.

The Allied advance pushed the V-2 out of range of London. Consider that distance is nowhere near the distance from even France to the US, he was a LONG way off.

However, Hitler could have ruled most of Europe and North Africa. The aforementioned invasion of Russia was one blunder. Entering into a mutual defense agreement with Japan another. Had he not declared war on the US after the US declared war on Japan, he possibly could have escaped the US being an active participant in Europe.

He also had the first operational jet fighter -- the Messerschmidt ME-262 -- that he insisted be developed as a bomber.

Just a few minor changes and the world could have a VERY different face.

[Kathianne]

Hitler was indeed pursuing the atomic bomb. His rockets could not reach the Continental US, and they were not very accurate. The guidance system was rudimentary.

The Allied advance pushed the V-2 out of range of London. Consider that distance is nowhere near the distance from even France to the US, he was a LONG way off.

However, Hitler could have ruled most of Europe and North Africa. The aforementioned invasion of Russia was one blunder. Entering into a mutual defense agreement with Japan another. Had he not declared war on the US after the US declared war on Japan, he possibly could have escaped the US being an active participant in Europe.

He also had the first operational jet fighter -- the Messerschmidt ME-262 -- that he insisted be developed as a bomber.

Just a few minor changes and the world could have a VERY different face.

I'm so confused.

[Gaffer]

Hitler was indeed pursuing the atomic bomb. His rockets could not reach the Continental US, and they were not very accurate. The guidance system was rudimentary.

The Allied advance pushed the V-2 out of range of London. Consider that distance is nowhere near the distance from even France to the US, he was a LONG way off.

However, Hitler could have ruled most of Europe and North Africa. The aforementioned invasion of Russia was one blunder. Entering into a mutual defense agreement with Japan another. Had he not declared war on the US after the US declared war on Japan, he possibly could have escaped the US being an active participant in Europe.

He also had the first operational jet fighter -- the Messerschmidt ME-262 -- that he insisted be developed as a bomber.

Just a few minor changes and the world could have a VERY different face.

Hitler did more to defeat himself than the allies ever did.

[Mr. P]

I'm so confused.

Me too. Didn't go to Europe on the pleas of England? Other stuff too but they were getting their clock cleaned before we stepped up. Right?

[Gunny]

The Germans could have destroyed the Allied beachhead at Dunkirk before any type of flotilla could have been organized. The German generals were begging for air strikes. Hitler simply didn't think it was worthwhile. He felt that leaving the Allies on the beach humiliated them. He didn't count on the massive flotilla that ensured.

The Panzer divisions were halted from 24-26 May for repairs, resupply and to allow their ground units to catch up. It would have been a reckless decision to push forward, outrunning their lines of communication and supply and taking the chance of being themselves cut off.

The motive you attribute to Hitler is speculation. There's also the theory he wanted to negotiate with Britain. In this case, I prefer the decision dictated by necessity. His army was strung across Belgium and France trying to catch up.


I believe the German plan to control Mexico was called "Operation Felix." There were also plans to control the Panama Canal and Greenland, which would have cut off shipping routes. German forces outnumbered the British almost 20-to-1 in Egypt, yet Hitler never thought of seizing control of the Suez Canal.

"Operation Felix" was a plan between Germany and Spain to attack the British held island of Gibraltar. It died on the planning table.

In the latter stages of the war, the Germans were developing aircraft that could bomb cities on the U.S. east coast, including Washington D.C. and New York City. German U-boats came within 100 miles of the coast and could have made huge raids on our coastal cities.

The Messerschmitt ME-264 Amerika never got past the prototype stage.
The Junkers Ju 390 was supposed to be their long-range bomber, but they dumped it in early 1944.

Submarine attacks off the coast would have mostly affected shipping; which, is what they were designed for. Their effect on the coast would have been minimal.

[Gunny]

I'm so confused.

Hitler had a mutual defense agreement with Italy and Japan. If any of the three was attacked, the other two would support the attacked.

Japan attacked us on Dec 7. 1941. Congress declared war on Dec 8. Hitler either the same day or the next, declared war on the US as part of his agreement with Japan.

[Gunny]

Me too. Didn't go to Europe on the pleas of England? Other stuff too but they were getting their clock cleaned before we stepped up. Right?

We supplied England with everything through the lend-lease act, but did not actively participate in the European theater of war until after Hitler delcared war on the US.

[Gunny]

Hitler did more to defeat himself than the allies ever did.

True enough.

[Gaffer]

Me too. Didn't go to Europe on the pleas of England? Other stuff too but they were getting their clock cleaned before we stepped up. Right?

The US was divided about the war in eurpoe. Half the country was against our getting involved. Roosevelt would have had to go to war with a nation like we have today. Pearl Harbor united everyone.

[Gunny]

The US was divided about the war in eurpoe. Half the country was against our getting involved. Roosevelt would have had to go to war with a nation like we have today. Pearl Harbor united everyone.

I agree, with the caveat that I don't think even Pearl Harbor would have been enough for some without Hitler's declaration of war.

It still kind of irks me that we put OUR war on the back burner for Europe's.

[musicman]

Hitler had a mutual defense agreement with Italy and Japan. If any of the three was attacked, the other two would support the attacked.

Japan attacked us on Dec 7. 1941. Congress declared war on Dec 8. Hitler either the same day or the next, declared war on the US as part of his agreement with Japan.

...and, therefore, had every reason to expect Japan to declare war on Russia - whch Japan didn't, not considering it especially in her interest to do so. Privately, Hitler fumed over this - considering it treachery on Japan's part. Ultimately, then, Hitler's grand gesture of declaring war on America availed him naught. I won't say it was a fatal move for him, though, as I am convinced Roosevelt and Churchill would have found a way to get America involved in Europe, regardless.

[MtnBiker]

I find it interesting that there is continued criticism in some camps about Truman's decision to drop A-bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Far more Japanese died in the fire bombing of Tokyo than by both bombs combined.
MacArthur was totally against using the atomic bombs prior to an invasion. He misunderstood their power and significance. MacArthur wanted bombs dropped as part of an invasion.
Documents seized after the war showed that the Japanese were aware of most of our invasion plans. That had a defense strategy that the U.S. never envisioned.
The atomic bombs were totally necessary. Truman issued a pair of ultimatums, one before Hiroshima and one after. Japan ignored both of them. The Japanese military did not want to surrender after Nagasaki. They only relented on direct orders from Hirohito.

I have always wondered what would have happened after Germany won WWII. Hitler was growing increasing psychotic and paranoid. He also had some pretty serious illnesses. There is no doubt that he would have died before the end of the 1940s. Who would have assumed control?


Wow, that is the first time I have witness a lib with that point of view.

[Gunny]

...and, therefore, had every reason to expect Japan to declare war on Russia - whch Japan didn't, not considering it especially in her interest to do so. Privately, Hitler fumed over this - considering it treachery on Japan's part. Ultimately, then, Hitler's grand gesture of declaring war on America availed him naught. I won't say it was a fatal move for him, though, as I am convinced Roosevelt and Churchill would have found a way to get America involved in Europe, regardless.

All Roosevelt would really have had to do was point to the Tripartite Pact as an excuse, with or without Htiler's declaration.

[musicman]

All Roosevelt would really have had to do was point to the Tripartite Pact as an excuse, with or without Htiler's declaration.

Ah - sort of a pre-emptive strike, in view of the Pact's existence. I agree - Roosevelt could have cited this as reasonable grounds.

Hell, America was in it up to her eyeballs anyway - in every way but as a formally declared belligerent. Hitler merely gave the name to what, obviously, was the already existing state of affairs. Of course, Hitler also hoped (vainly, as it turned out) to shame Japan into declaring war on the Soviets. I wonder how Russia would have fared in a two-front war - even WITH Hitler's strategic blunders.

[Gaffer]

Ah - sort of a pre-emptive strike, in view of the Pact's existence. I agree - Roosevelt could have cited this as reasonable grounds.

Hell, America was in it up to her eyeballs anyway - in every way but as a formally declared belligerent. Hitler merely gave the name to what, obviously, was the already existing state of affairs. Of course, Hitler also hoped (vainly, as it turned out) to shame Japan into declaring war on the Soviets. I wonder how Russia would have fared in a two-front war - even WITH Hitler's strategic blunders.

That's what I have always wondered two. They would have had a lot less troops to defend the front with if they had to fight the japanese in the east. It also benefited the japs as well cause they were able to concentrate on china and the southern islands. Staying nuetral to each other served both their purposes.

[gabosaurus]

Any bleeding heart that opposes the A-Bombs is not a student of history. Compared to the Rape of Nanking, the Bataan Death March, the Japanese "death ships" and horrific POW camps, the A-Bombs were almost merciful in stature. The number killed by the two A-bombs does not begin to compare to the estimated 50 million Japanese that would have died during an invasion.

The Japanese war lords were far smarter than Hitler. They know that they could not fight America and Russia both. The Russians knew the same thing. That is why they waited until everything was pretty much over to declare war on Japan.

Hitler basically dismissed American involvement in the war. He thought U.S. fighting skills and leadership palled in comparison to the British, who he secretly admired. Hitler only declared war on the U.S. to fulfill the Axis pact.

[Gunny]

Ah - sort of a pre-emptive strike, in view of the Pact's existence. I agree - Roosevelt could have cited this as reasonable grounds.

Hell, America was in it up to her eyeballs anyway - in every way but as a formally declared belligerent. Hitler merely gave the name to what, obviously, was the already existing state of affairs. Of course, Hitler also hoped (vainly, as it turned out) to shame Japan into declaring war on the Soviets. I wonder how Russia would have fared in a two-front war - even WITH Hitler's strategic blunders.

IMO, it benefitted Japan more. For a tiny island nation, it occupied a WHOLE LOT of territory. No way could Japan consolidate and defend its conquests AND field an army large enough to scare the Soviets.

There's also distance as a factor. Japan was a LONG way from from anything the Soviets could not afford to temporarily abandon.

And gabby brings up a good point. Roosevelt was as miffed at Stalin as Hitler was at Japan becuase Stalin would not declare war on Japan until Japan was virtually finished.