fact check Chick tract #1: Hindu

[revelarts]

OK lets try to break this thing down page by page or so.

http://media.chick.com/tractimages59135/0070/0070_02.gif

Ok India 1982 a true story.

I can't find any specific case of a Father Killing his own son in 1982 BUT i was able to find to many stories of children and adults being sacrificed to Kali in order to gain supernatural powers.

Here's a list of several cases from the India times report in recent years.
http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/keyword/child-sacrifice/recent/2

here's a specific case

Child sacrifice cases stun India (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2632878/posts)
<small> Deutsche Presse Agentur (via M&C) ^ (http://www.freerepublic.com/%5Ehttp://www.monstersandcritics.com/news/southasia/news/article_1601429.php/Child-sacrifice-cases-stun-India) | 11/25/2010 </small>
<small>Posted on Thu Nov 25 07:38:38 2010 by markomalley (http://www.freerepublic.com/%7Emarkomalley/)</small>
New Delhi - Police in India's central state of Chhattisgarh have arrested seven people for allegedly sacrificing two children to gain 'supernatural powers,' officials said Thursday.
Witch-doctor Ishwari Yadav, his wife Kiranbai and five of their disciples were arrested after police found the bodies of a 2-year-old boy and a 6-year-old girl at their home in Durg district Wednesday.
'The boy was killed on Tuesday and the girl was murdered some six months ago,' district police chief Amit Kumar said in a telephone interview. '(The suspects) were arrested for holding human sacrifices and have confessed their crimes.'
'During questioning the couple admitted that they had offered the sacrifices for appeasing the Hindu goddess Kali and attaining occult powers and wealth,' Kumar said.

According to Kumar, the murders which have caused outrage in the region, were uncovered after the boy's father alerted the police when his son went missing.
During the investigation, the police determined that the boy was last spotted at Yadav's house.
The police raided the house and found the body of the child buried under an idol in a worship room.
The police, who seized a knife used for the crime, later also found the skeletal remains of the girl.
Human sacrifice has long been banned in India, but cases have been reported from underdeveloped regions where superstitions hold sway.
In April, the beheaded body of a factory worker was found in a Kali temple in West Bengal state.
Kali is widely worshipped across India and has several forms, including that of a benevolent mother figure and a dark and violent destroyer of evil wearing a garland of skulls.
Heres a case of a an aleged Father who was trying to scarifice his dauther but was stopped by other worshipers

Child sacrifice aborted in Guwahati (http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2003-06-14/india/27180678_1_kamakhya-temple-child-sacrifice-amritlal-mazumdar)


June 14, 2003 | Prabin Kalita , TNN
GUWAHATI: But for an employee of the Kamakhya temple authorities, one-and-half-year-old Taramai would have been the first human sacrifice in modern days at the Kamakhya temple that has a history of human sacrifices. The little girl was rescued by the devotees and the trust authorities just in time. She was rushed to the hospital as the sharp barber's razor used by Satya Das, who claims to be her father, left a deep cut on her neck. The 45-year-old Satya Das alias Amritlal Mazumdar claimed before the police that Taramai was his daughter.




So It seems Chick is Not Exaggerating the 1st point.
People who worship Kali HAVE, and it seem at times still DO, sacrifice children ,even their own, to KALI or other Hindu deities.


Page 1 seems OK.
But admittedly Chick is Showing a worse case scenario, but it is TRUE,
Child Sacrifice is a part of some modern kali worship and was a regular part of historical Hindu worship.

This really should show us that all religions are NOT basically the all the same.

[Missileman]

OK lets try to break this thing down page by page or so.

http://media.chick.com/tractimages59135/0070/0070_02.gif

Ok India 1982 a true story.

I can't find any specific case of a Father Killing his own son in 1982 BUT i was able to find to many stories of children and adults being sacrificed to Kali in order to gain supernatural powers.

Here's a list of several cases from the India times report in recent years.
http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/keyword/child-sacrifice/recent/2

here's a specific case

Heres a case of a an aleged Father who was trying to scarifice his dauther but was stopped by other worshipers



So It seems Chick is Not Exaggerating the 1st point.
People who worship Kali HAVE, and it seem at times still DO, sacrifice children ,even their own, to KALI or other Hindu deities.


Page 1 seems OK.
But admittedly Chick is Showing a worse case scenario, but it is TRUE,
Child Sacrifice is a part of some modern kali worship and was a regular part of historical Hindu worship.

This really should show us that all religions are NOT basically the all the same.

Kali is real and those who do her will (perform sacrifices) derive divine benefit.

[Wind Song]

Child sacrifice is not a part of Hindu worship. It seems your source is only interested in aberrant events barely related to Hinduism. You don't understand that Kali is a meditational deity, not a God. Kali is a wrathful form of compassion.

Every aspect of her appearance has symbolic meaning, not actual literal meaning. Her nudity stands for primordial awareness, she is free from illusion. Her garland of 50 human heads stand for each of the 50 letters of the Sanskrit alphabet and symobolizes infinite knowledge.

She is the dark mother. Primordial wisdom, unborn. Her three eyes symoblize past, present and future times. The word, Kali is related to time, or timelessness. The example of child sacrifice you've put in this thread shows that the doer of the deed has no understanding of Kali at all.


Kali, symbolizes the wholeness of life: life and death, beauty and ugliness, motherliness and destructiveness. Kali is a meditational deity, not a God, and she offers spiritual transformation and liberation. What Kali annhiliates is the ego, the sense of separateness from the divine. She is not a death cult.

Read more: http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Hinduism/2003/09/The-Two-Faces-Of-Kali.aspx#ixzz1u0VJDL5Y


When I traveled in Nepal and India I saw animal sacrifices, mostly chickens or goats. Hardly a bad thing, considering the number animals regularly slaughtered just for food. Chick tracts are an irresponsible source of knowledge about Eastern religions. Very dangerous. Most likely to support misunderstanding and prejudice.

[Wind Song]

Child sacrifice is not a part of Hindu worship. It seems your source is only interested in aberrant events barely related to Hinduism. You don't understand that Kali is a meditational deity, not a God. Kali is a wrathful form of compassion.

Every aspect of her appearance has symbolic meaning, not actual literal meaning. Her nudity stands for primordial awareness, she is free from illusion. Her garland of 50 human heads stand for each of the 50 letters of the Sanskrit alphabet and symobolizes infinite knowledge.

She is the dark mother. Primordial wisdom, unborn. Her three eyes symoblize past, present and future times. The word, Kali is related to time, or timelessness. The example of child sacrifice you've put in this thread shows that the doer of the deed has no understanding of Kali at all.


Kali, symbolizes the wholeness of life: life and death, beauty and ugliness, motherliness and destructiveness. Kali is a meditational deity, not a God, and she offers spiritual transformation and liberation. What Kali annhiliates is the ego, the sense of separateness from the divine. She is not a death cult.

Read more: http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Hinduism/2003/09/The-Two-Faces-Of-Kali.aspx#ixzz1u0VJDL5Y


When I traveled in Nepal and India I saw animal sacrifices, mostly chickens or goats. Hardly a bad thing, considering the number animals regularly slaughtered just for food. Chick tracts are an irresponsible source of knowledge about Eastern religions. Very dangerous. Most likely to support misunderstanding and prejudice.


Try discussing Kali with a Hindu before accepting bizarre murder stories as typical of Hinduism. I can't believe you'd accept cartoon sound bites by a fundamentalist Christian as representative of Hinud religious teachings. He's obviously biased against any religion other than his own. His comics have been described by the Los Angeles Magazine (http://www.debatepolicy.com/wiki/Los_Angeles_Magazine) as "equal parts hate literature and fire-and-brimstone sermonizing".

[Wind Song]

Even the Bible has a story of Abraham's willingness to sacrifice his son. Please don't settle for Jack Chick tracts as "gospel" for the tenets of non-fundamentalist Christian religions.

[Wind Song]

Anti-Hindu prejudice is a negative perception or religious intolerance (http://www.debatepolicy.com/wiki/Religious_intolerance) against the practice and practitioners of Hinduism (http://www.debatepolicy.com/wiki/Hinduism). Anti-Hindu sentiments have been expressed by Muslims in Pakistan (http://www.debatepolicy.com/wiki/Pakistan), Bangladesh (http://www.debatepolicy.com/wiki/Bangladesh), leading to significant persecution of Hindus (http://www.debatepolicy.com/wiki/Persecution_of_Hindus) in those regions, such as the 1971 Bangladesh atrocities (http://www.debatepolicy.com/wiki/1971_Bangladesh_atrocities) by Pakistan, and the recent demolition of Hindu temples (http://www.debatepolicy.com/wiki/Hinduism_in_Malaysia#Persecution) in Malaysia.[1] (http://www.debatepolicy.com/#cite_note-0)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Hinduism


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZ9To30Hz7A

[revelarts]

I was quoting News sources where people confess to the practice of child sacrifice for KALI.

you may not think Hindus do this, MOST Hindus I'm sure do not, however like radical Islam apparently some do take what is written very literally what you consider symbolic.

i've read more of these stories than i posted and in oneit said that Kali worshipers have a festival where worshipers paint and dress themselves like Kali and parade down the streets, while bystanders RUSH THEIR CHILDREN IN THE HOUSE AND LOCK THE DOORS.

I mean you know offense but this crap is real. No need to sugar coat it or deny it.

There are Christians that handle snakes too but it's not main stream, But no laws are needed against it to try to ban the practice. in India it is a known and not Uncommon problem and there is a WELL known history of the practice being typical in some areas for centuries. See the history of the Thugge.
Even an Indian official has been tried for ritual sacrifice of 11 virgin girls.

maybe the version of Hinduism you've learned is a sanitized western version, i can't say, but don't deny the well reported reality here.

[Wind Song]

One case does not make a cult or a practice. The nature of prejudice is to take the most extreme example you can find and generalize, as posters here have done to try and make a case that Christianity is superior to all other religions.

Don't worry. I'm not trying to dissuade anyone from their anti-Hindu prejudice. I'm just offering my usual minority opinion. From now on, I'm gonna come in and make my point and leave.
My opinion comes from long term study, traveling in Hindu countries and having Hindu friends.


No sense beating a dead horse.

[Wind Song]

One documented case of child sacrifice twenty years ago is being used to bash Hinduism as a religion. Sad.

[revelarts]

One case does not make a cult or a practice. The nature of prejudice is to take the most extreme example you can find and generalize, as posters here have done to try and make a case that Christianity is superior to all other religions.

Don't worry. I'm not trying to dissuade anyone from their anti-Hindu prejudice. I'm just offering my usual minority opinion. From now on, I'm gonna come in and make my point and leave.
My opinion comes from long term study, traveling in Hindu countries and having Hindu friends.


No sense beating a dead horse.
??
How many cases does it take? I've post a list of like 20 or so. i could post more.
It's a publicly acknowledged practice.

But this is the kind of thing that will make it impossible to clear Chick of the reputation that it promoting errors, or lies. The facts touch to many precious nerves.
The dark side info of the issues and religions Chick tracts address are often blindly DENIED by the adherents and their friends.
"Islam is a religion of peace"
But It seems the basic info they present is often, in a very strict sense, accurate. but unpleasant.

[Wind Song]

??
How many cases does it take? I've post a list of like 20 or so. i could post more.
It's a publicly acknowledged practice.

But this is the kind of thing that will make it impossible to clear Chick of the reputation that it promoting errors, or lies. The facts touch to many precious nerves.
The dark side info of the issues and religions Chick tracts address are often blindly DENIED by the adherents and their friends.
"Islam is a religion of peace"
But It seems the basic info they present is often, in a very strict sense, accurate. but unpleasant.


Your anti-hindu and anti-muslim prejudice is showing. Jack Chick tracts are not a great source to understanding world religions. He has an agenda. LA Times considers his tracts a form of hate speech.

[revelarts]

Your anti-hindu and anti-muslim prejudice is showing. Jack Chick tracts are not a great source to understanding world religions. He has an agenda. LA Times considers his tracts a form of hate speech.

:facepalm99:

[Wind Song]

Chicks goal is to bring out the dark side of ANY religion, other than his own narrow version of fundamentalist Christianity.

[Wind Song]

:facepalm99:


Notice how you feel toward Hindus. Jack Chick is responsible for that.

[revelarts]

Notice how you feel toward Hindus. Jack Chick is responsible for that.

:facepalm99::facepalm99:

[revelarts]

One documented case of child sacrifice twenty years ago is being used to bash Hinduism as a religion. Sad.
From the India Times
Articles About Child Sacrifice By Date - Page 2


CHANDIGARH
Police suspect child sacrifice (http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2007-09-27/chandigarh/27992110_1_child-sacrifice-body-cops)


September 27, 2007 | TNN
CHANDIGARH: In what could be a case of child sacrifice, the Nawanshahr police has recovered a three-year-old boy's mutilated body from a deserted place in Rahon town. Lovepreet Singh had gone missing on Monday afternoon and the body was recovered late in the evening. The cops said the body bore injury marks and the intestines were hanging out. The body also had burn marks and a thread was found tied on child's wrists prompting cops to suspect that he was made to sit through some kind of a...

Child Sacrifice Articles By Date
MUMBAI
Mumbai family lays murdered child to rest after 2 years (http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2012-03-05/mumbai/31123798_1_shreya-child-sacrifice-crime-branch)


March 5, 2012 | Vijay V Singh , TNN
MUMBAI: In 2009, Upendra Rai's three-year-old daughter Shreya was found murdered a few metres from her home. For over two years, the Borivli family extended all support to cops in the hope that they will bring the culprit to book. With the police probe heading nowhere, the Rais decided to claim their child's body and lay her to rest. On Sunday, they bid a tearful adieu to the beloved daughter. Upendra told TOI, "More than two years have passed and the police are yet to catch...



http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/images/pixel.gif


http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/images/pixel.gif

PUNE
Woman held for child sacrifice (http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2003-07-29/pune/27215783_1_child-sacrifice-childless-woman-girl)


July 29, 2003 | TNN
PUNE: The Haveli police on Monday arrested a childless woman for allegedly sacrificing a five-year-old girl for begetting a child. According to the police, Laxmibai Datta Mishra (25) of Kamble vasti, allegedly murdered Mayuri Babbar on July 18, when the girl's parents had gone out of the house. The police said that the Babbars were very friendly with Mayuri and she used to regularly visit the house of the Mishras. On July 18, Mayuri went to Mishra's residence to distribute...

INDIA
Child sacrifice aborted in Guwahati (http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2003-06-14/india/27180678_1_kamakhya-temple-child-sacrifice-amritlal-mazumdar)


June 14, 2003 | Prabin Kalita , TNN
GUWAHATI: But for an employee of the Kamakhya temple authorities, one-and-half-year-old Taramai would have been the first human sacrifice in modern days at the Kamakhya temple that has a history of human sacrifices. The little girl was rescued by the devotees and the trust authorities just in time. She was rushed to the hospital as the sharp barber's razor used by Satya Das, who claims to be her father, left a deep cut on her neck. The 45-year-old Satya Das alias Amritlal...



KOLKATA
Tantrik confesses to child sacrifice in Bankura (http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2012-02-03/kolkata/31020612_1_tantrik-rituals-village)


February 3, 2012 | Falguni Banerjee , TNN
KALAKURI (BANKURA): A self-styled tantrik in a Bankura village has confessed to beheading a newborn and licking the blood dripping from its severed head. Police haven't found the motive for the human sacrifice but they have the dagger used in the grisly ritual and pictures of the baby's head hanging by a rope. The torso is still missing and the parents of the infant are yet to be traced. The accused, Lakkhikanto Karmakar alias Shyama, is a history-sheeter and had become a...

INDIA
2 BSF jawans held in child ‘sacrifice’ case (http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2011-10-09/india/30259935_1_bsf-jawans-child-sacrifice-border-security-force-jawans)


October 9, 2011 | Manosh Das , TNN
SHILLONG: Two Border Security Force (BSF) jawans were arrested in Meghalaya's West Garo Hills for suspected " child sacrifice" in a temple in the 121 battalion camp. The BSF on Saturday instituted a court of inquiry to investigate the case. The jawans belonged to BSF's 121 battalion. A senior BSF officer told TOI, "We handed over head constable Chandra Bhan Das and constable Babu Khan to Meghalaya police. They are suspected to be involved in the case. " The BSF...



http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/images/pixel.gif

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/images/pixel.gif

MANGALORE
FTC to hear child sacrifice case (http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2011-06-07/mangalore/29634449_1_child-sacrifice-chargesheet-murder-case)


June 7, 2011 | STANLEY G PINTO , TNN
MANGALORE: The child sacrifice case will come up before the Fast Track Sessions court here on June 17, exactly six months after the gruesome murder took place. The Mangalore sub-division police had submitted the chargesheet to the court in February this year pertaining to the December 17, 2010, murder of a child by a couple allegedly to appease deity 'Kala Bhairava at Yeyyady in the city. As it was a murder case, the case was sent to the Sessions court from the Judicial Magistrate...

INDIA
2 BSF jawans held in child ‘sacrifice’ case (http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2011-10-09/india/30259935_1_bsf-jawans-child-sacrifice-border-security-force-jawans)


October 9, 2011 | Manosh Das , TNN
SHILLONG: Two Border Security Force (BSF) jawans were arrested in Meghalaya's West Garo Hills for suspected " child sacrifice" in a temple in the 121 battalion camp. The BSF on Saturday instituted a court of inquiry to investigate the case. The jawans belonged to BSF's 121 battalion. A senior BSF officer told TOI, "We handed over head constable Chandra Bhan Das and constable Babu Khan to Meghalaya police. They are suspected to be involved in the case. " The BSF...

MUMBAI
Mumbai family lays murdered child to rest after 2 years (http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2012-03-05/mumbai/31123798_1_shreya-child-sacrifice-crime-branch)


March 5, 2012 | Vijay V Singh , TNN
MUMBAI: In 2009, Upendra Rai's three-year-old daughter Shreya was found murdered a few metres from her home. For over two years, the Borivli family extended all support to cops in the hope that they will bring the culprit to book. With the police probe heading nowhere, the Rais decided to claim their child's body and lay her to rest. On Sunday, they bid a tearful adieu to the beloved daughter. Upendra told TOI, "More than two years have passed and the police...

INDIA
Fakir 'beheads' toddler, 'drinks' his blood in Tamil Nadu (http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2010-07-26/india/28315709_1_dargah-child-sacrifice-exhumed)


July 26, 2010 | TNN
MADURAI: In a chilling incident of child sacrifice , a fakir and his woman associate allegedly kidnapped, beheaded a one-and-a-half-year-old baby and buried the remains at two different places in southern Tamil Nadu , apparently to attain supernatural powers, the police said. The police also suspected that the kidnapper may have drunk the child's blood as part of occult rituals. The police have arrested the two and exhumed the...

INDIA
Eye for an eye, child for a child (http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2005-09-26/india/27852490_1_child-sacrifice-eye-pune)


September 26, 2005 | TNN
PUNE: It all started with a routine police probe. There was a complaint that a child had gone missing in the city. This was sometime in 2003. It was much later that the Pune rural police realised it wasn't any ordinary abduction. Five-year-old Mayuri Babar had been a victim of child sacrifice. Like other kids in Dhayari, on Pune's outskirts, Mayuri had one day strayed out of her house. She never made it back. Laxmi Datta Mishra, who lived in the same locality, picked her up, took her to a...



INDIA
Child sacrifice rumour: Villagers on rampage in Jharkhand (http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2011-07-18/india/29786526_1_villagers-infants-rumour)


July 18, 2011 | PTI
JAMSHEDPUR: Rumours that two infants would be sacrificed today at the project site of a upcoming plant in Jharkhand's Saraikela-Kharswan district provoked villagers who ransacked the premises and assaulted officials prompting police to fire in the air. Sub-divisional Officer (Saraikela sub-division) C K Singh said police fired one round in the air after attempts to pacify the villagers failed. Trouble began after villagers and labourers spotted a...

MANGALORE
FTC to hear child sacrifice case (http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2011-06-07/mangalore/29634449_1_child-sacrifice-chargesheet-murder-case)


June 7, 2011 | STANLEY G PINTO , TNN
MANGALORE: The child sacrifice case will come up before the Fast Track Sessions court here on June 17, exactly six months after the gruesome murder took place. The Mangalore sub-division police had submitted the chargesheet to the court in February this year pertaining to the December 17, 2010, murder of a child by a couple allegedly to appease deity 'Kala Bhairava at Yeyyady in the city. As it was a murder case, the case was sent to the Sessions court from the Judicial Magistrate...

MUMBAI

ACP to probe advocate's plaint (http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2011-02-02/mangalore/28354660_1_police-inspector-complaint-child-sacrifice)


February 2, 2011 | TNN
MANGALORE: The JMFC second court here directed the assistant commissioner of police (ACP), Mangalore, to investigate a complaint filed by advocate Dinesh Hegde Ulepady against N Niranjan Raj Aras , police inspector, Mangalore East (Kadri) police station. Dinesh, in his complaint, has alleged that Raj Aras was not allowing him to defend Kamalaksha Purusha and Chandrakala, accused of indulging in child sacrifice. The court, treating Dinesh's complaint as a private...

BANGALORE
Superstition led to child's killing, says report (http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2010-12-22/bangalore/28227963_1_police-inspector-child-sacrifice-inquiry)


December 22, 2010 | Jaideep Shenoy , TNN
MANGALORE: An inquiry conducted by Mangalore assistant commissioner Prabhuling Kavalikatti into the death of Priyanka, the victim of alleged child sacrifice reported from Yeyyadi on Friday, has prima facie concluded that superstition had played an important part. Kamalaksha Purusha and Chandrakala, the prime accused, allegedly sacrificed the child to propitiate the family deity Kala Bhairava. Prabhuling, who submitted a three-page report to deputy...



http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/images/pixel.gif

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/images/pixel.gif

MANGALORE
VHP urges the Bar not to take up the case (http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2010-12-18/mangalore/28237683_1_child-sacrifice-vhp-capital-punishment)


December 18, 2010 | TNN
MANGALORE: The Vishwa Hindu Parishad and Bajrang Dal on Saturday urged the Bar Association not to take up the case of accused Kamalaksha Purusha, his brother Madhava Rao and Chandrakala, accused of child sacrifice. Sharan Pumpwell, district convener of Ddal, in a letter to Bar Association president SP Chengappa said that it was a barbaric act which should be condemned by one and all. Capital punishment is the only punishment for the accused, who are not fit to live...

MANGALORE
ACP to probe advocate's plaint (http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2011-02-02/mangalore/28354660_1_police-inspector-complaint-child-sacrifice)


February 2, 2011 | TNN
MANGALORE: The JMFC second court here directed the assistant commissioner of police (ACP), Mangalore, to investigate a complaint filed by advocate Dinesh Hegde Ulepady against N Niranjan Raj Aras , police inspector, Mangalore East (Kadri) police station. Dinesh, in his complaint, has alleged that Raj Aras was not allowing him to defend Kamalaksha Purusha and Chandrakala, accused of indulging in child sacrifice. The court, treating Dinesh's complaint as a private one, directed the...


http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/images/pixel.gif
<center>
</center>


MANGALORE
VHP urges the Bar not to take up the case (http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2010-12-18/mangalore/28237683_1_child-sacrifice-vhp-capital-punishment)


December 18, 2010 | TNN
MANGALORE: The Vishwa Hindu Parishad and Bajrang Dal on Saturday urged the Bar Association not to take up the case of accused Kamalaksha Purusha, his brother Madhava Rao and Chandrakala, accused of child sacrifice. Sharan Pumpwell, district convener of Ddal, in a letter to Bar Association president SP Chengappa said that it was a barbaric act which should be condemned by one and all. Capital punishment is the only punishment for the accused, who are not fit to live...

BANGALORE
Child strangled, sacrifice suspected (http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2010-12-18/bangalore/28239305_1_kamalaksha-purusha-chandrakala-priyanka)


December 18, 2010 | STANLEY G PINTO , TNN
MANGALORE: In a chilling incident, a little girl was strangled in an apparent sacrifice by a couple at Yeyyady here on Thursday. Police arrested Kamalaksha Purusha (75) and Chandrakala (35). They allegedly resorted to this macabre ritual to appease a deity, Kala Bhairava. The incident, the first of its kind in the coastal city, came to light on Friday. The victim was Priyanka, just three and a half. She was the daughter of Anjali and Firan Kumar Jha from Bihar. A...

1-yr-old boy abducted for sacrifice on Holi night (http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2010-03-01/delhi/28136446_1_haldwani-suitable-boy-uttarakhand)
March 1, 2010 | TNN
GHAZIABAD: The entire Uttar Pradesh and Uttarakhand police force went on alert after it was reported that a one-year-old child had been abducted on Sunday with the plan to sacrifice him on the night of Holi. Police said some tantriks from the Haldwani area of Uttarakhand may be involved. "The accused have gone to Haldwani by road. Our team has already left for Haldwani. The local SSP has been informed and their teams are checking trains and buses," Raghuvir Lal, SSP (Ghaziabad)



Child rescued from tantriks' clutches (http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2005-09-26/delhi/27841764_1_ramzan-child-holy-month)
September 26, 2005 | TNN
NEW DELHI: This ramzan, five-year-old Sonu would have been sacrificed at the altar had not the police traced the kidnapped boy to Jharoda village in Burari on Sunday. His abductors ? a childless tantrik couple ? had made all the plans. "We had received a tip that Mohammad Rashid Ali alias Sufi, 31, was hiding in one of the jhuggies in Seemapuri, and nabbed him after conducting a raid. Though he initially denied his involvement, he soon disclosed that the child was with his wife Khairoon Nisha, 22, in Jharoda village," said R L Meena, DCP (north-east district)
DELHI



<center>More Articles about Child Sacrifice:1 | 2 (http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/keyword/child-sacrifice/featured/2) | 3 (http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/keyword/child-sacrifice/featured/3) | 4 (http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/keyword/child-sacrifice/featured/4) | Next (http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/keyword/child-sacrifice/featured/2)</center>

[revelarts]

A Chick Influenced Time magazine article,
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,322673,00.html

For the magic to work, the killing had to be done just right. If the goddess were to grant Khudu Karmakar the awesome powers he expected from a virgin's death, the victim had to be willing, had to know what was happening, watch the knife, and not stop it. But even tranquilizers couldn't lull 15-year-old Manju Kumari to her fate. In his police confession, Karmakar says his wife, daughter and three accomplices had to gag Manju and pin her down on the earthen floor before the shrine. In ritual order, Karmakar wafted incense over her, tore off her blue skirt and pink T shirt, shaved her, sprinkled her with holy water from the Ganges and rubbed her with cooking fat. Then chanting mantras to the "mother" goddess Kali, he sawed off Manju's hands, breasts and left foot, placing the body parts in front of a photograph of a blood-soaked Kali idol. Police say the arcs of blood on the walls suggest Manju bled to death in minutes.
Human sacrifice has always been an anomaly in India. Even 200 years ago, when a boy was killed every day at a Kali temple in Calcutta, blood cults were at odds with a benign Hindu spiritualism that celebrates abstinence and vegetarianism. But Kali is different. A ferocious slayer of evil in Hindu mythology, the goddess is said to have an insatiable appetite for blood. With the law on killing people more strictly enforced today, ersatz substitutes now stand in for humans when sacrifice is required. Most Kali temples have settled on large pumpkins to represent a human body; other followers slit the throats of two-meter-tall human effigies made of flour, or of animals such as goats.


<tbody>
http://i.timeinc.net/time/asia/globalimages/issue/transparent.gif






http://i.timeinc.net/time/asia/globalimages/issue/transparent.gif


</tbody>
In secret ceremonies, however, the grizzly practice lives on. Quite simply, say the faithful�known as tantrics�Kali looks after those who look after her, bringing riches to the poor, revenge to the oppressed and newborn joy to the childless. So far this year, police have recorded at least one case of ritual killing a month. In January, in the southern state of Andhra Pradesh, a 24-year-old woman hacked her three-year-old son to death after a tantric sorcerer supposedly promised unlimited earthly riches. In February, two men in the eastern state of Tripura beheaded a woman on the instructions of a deity they said appeared in their dreams promising hidden treasures. Karmakar killed Manju in Atapur village in Jharkhand state in April. The following month, police dug up the remains of two sisters, aged 18 and 13, in Bihar, dismembered with a ceremonial sword and offered to Kali by their father. Last week on the outskirts of Bombay, maize seller Anil Lakshmikant Singh, 33, beheaded his neighbor's nine-year-old son to save his marriage on the advice of a tantric. Said Singh: "He promised that a human sacrifice would end all my miseries." Far from ancient barbarisms that refuse to die, sacrifice and sorcery are making a comeback. Sociologists explain the millions who now throng the two main Kali centers in eastern India, at Kamakhya and Tarapith, as what happens when the rat race that is India's future meets the superstitions of its past. Sociologist Ashis Nandy says: "You see your neighbor doing well, above his caste and position, and someone tells you to get a child and do a secret ritual and you can catch up." Adds mysticism expert Ipsita Roy Chakaraverti: "It's got nothing to do with real mysticism or with spiritualism. It comes down to pure and simple greed." Tarapith in particular is a giant building site of new hotels, restaurants and stalls selling plastic swords and postcards of Kali's severed feet. Judging by the visitors here, Kali appeals to both rich and poor: the rows of SUVs parked outside four-star hotels belong to the ranks of businessmen and politicians lining up with their goats behind penniless pilgrims. ("The blood never dries at Tarapith," whispers one villager.)
There are no human sacrifices at the temple these days. But the mystique of ritual killing is so powerful that even those who actually don't perform it claim to do so. In their camp in the cremation grounds beside the temple, a throng of tantrics tout for business by competing to be as spooky as possible, lining their mud-walled temples with human skulls and telling tall tales of human sacrifice. "I cut off her head," says 64-year-old Baba Swami Vivekanand of a girl he says he raised from birth. "We buried the body and brought the head back, cooked it and ate it." He pauses to demand a $2 donation. "Good story, no?" While most of this is innocent, some followers, like Karmakar, are inevitably emboldened to take their quest for power to the extreme. Karmakar, like many others, was caught. But in the dust-bowl villages of India, where superstition reigns and blood has a dark authority, the question is how many other "holy men" have found that ultimate power still rests in the murderous magic of a virgin sacrifice.



Read more: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,322673,00.html#ixzz1u15j5mrA

[Wind Song]

Here is how prejudice works. You already have a view, (that any religion other than your own is evil), you find one or two instances where something dreadful has been done in the name of religion and you use that incident or incidents to blanket condemn the entire religion.

Fred Phelps is an example of a wacky man who calls himself "Christian" in the same way the child murderer in the Jack Chick tract calls himself Hindu. Are all fundamentalist Christians like Jack Chick or Fred Phelps? No, of course not.

People do the same with Islam. You don't look for moderate, sweet people who are practicing Muslims, you (collective you) think the radicals that get all the media coverage are the REAL Islam and the dear sweet people are the "whitewashed" Muslims.

It's faulty thinking, but we all do it.

We could examine prejudice, in general, but that wouldn't be the thread topic.

[revelarts]

Here is how prejudice works. You already have a view, (that any religion other than your own is evil), you find one or two instances where something dreadful has been done in the name of religion and you use that incident or incidents to blanket condemn the entire religion.

Fred Phelps is an example of a wacky man who calls himself "Christian" in the same way the child murderer in the Jack Chick tract calls himself Hindu. Are all fundamentalist Christians like Jack Chick or Fred Phelps? No, of course not.

People do the same with Islam. You don't look for moderate, sweet people who are practicing Muslims, you (collective you) think the radicals that get all the media coverage are the REAL Islam and the dear sweet people are the "whitewashed" Muslims.

It's faulty thinking, but we all do it.

We could examine prejudice, in general, but that wouldn't be the thread topic.
Is time magazine prejudice too?


Fred Phelps is a christian -i guess--I don't get to completely disown him. Or all of those people who claim to do things in the name of Jesus Christ. As bad as Fred Phelps is he hasn't said that if you kill you get more power , even metaphorically. While the time magazine article says that at least one ritual killing per month was reported. And it seem that people STILL want SOME LITERAL REPRESENTATION you yourself mention you saw animals killed, sacrificed for KALI. (Which you think is OK but somehow think Hunting is bad??) Time magazine says..
With the law on killing people more strictly enforced today, ersatz substitutes now stand in for humans when sacrifice is required. Most Kali temples have settled on large pumpkins to represent a human body; other followers slit the throats of two-meter-tall human effigies made of flour, or of animals such as goats.

<tbody>
http://i.timeinc.net/time/asia/globalimages/issue/transparent.gif





http://i.timeinc.net/time/asia/globalimages/issue/transparent.gif

</tbody>

In secret ceremonies, however, the grizzly practice lives on. Quite simply, say the faithful --known as tantrics-- Kali looks after those who look after her, bringing riches to the poor, revenge to the oppressed and newborn joy to the childless. So far this year, police have recorded at least one case of ritual killing a month. What Christian sect is Secretly making ANY blood Sacrifices, Much less Human.


What I can do is like you did earlier point out that His view or the view of a group like that is Extreme or Not inline with what was taught from the founders and history of the religion.

Christain has it's own baggage but it can Clearly go back to the source Jesus and the prophets and Defend there actions and words Primarly as the definition morality and kindness. Child sacrifice is Never promoted, Abraham was not allowed to do it, (as all of the religions surrounding him were) even in metaphor it was stopped. and God through Moses Strictly forbad it. And condemned it among the people which surrounded Israel.

Now, I've said SEVERAL TIMES that I don't believe this is general practice among Hindus, Just as the Times Article stated. BUT it appears clear that there is a significant body of people that claim to be teachers of the ways of KALI that DO think Child sacrifice and other types of Blood rituals are in fact what KALI desires. They are not making the teaching up, it derive them from where you made your defense. YOU tell me "it doesn't mean that " fine. And again I've read history that mentioned that a 100 years ago there was a child sacrifice daily.

Read this Carefully Windsong. I DO NOT THINK THIS IS THE PRACTICE OF MOST HINDUS. I'll not say it again.
But the practice WAS wide spread and human sacrifice WAS a COMMON understanding of what Kali some times wanted and Some still believe it so. I'm not counting heads, i don't know how many do, a minotriy i'd assume but since YOU SAW blood sacrifice OBVIOUSLY MANY take BLOOD literally not figuratively/metaphorically of emotions etcetc as you say it REALLY means.


Deny it if you will,
We'll disagree i guess.

I'd be nice if you could acknowledge the facts though.

moving forward I'll only say that the idea of the practice does come from an old established interpretation of the teachings of Kali, Kali wants blood. Hindus have to own that, if honesty is a part of their faith.

Concerning Chick, they are not making a blanket statement but using one example , a real one they say, that shows how SOME forms of Hinduism ARE practiced. Some people who've lived in India will be able to IMMEDIATELY recognize it as true even though it pains you to see it portrayed.

So, so far no foul, as far as i can tell, I'll comment on the rest of their characterization later.

if we can make it off the 1st page.

[Wind Song]

Is time magazine prejudice too?


Fred Phelps is a christian I don't get to completely disown him. Or all of those people who claim to do things in the name of Jesus Christ. As bad as Fred Phelps is hasn't said that if you kill you get more power , even metphorically. While the time magazine artile says that at least one ritual killing per month was reported. And it seem that people STILL want SOME LITERAL REPRESENTATION you yourself mention you saw animals killed, sacrificed for KALI. (Which you think is OK but somehow think Hunting is bad??) Time magazine says.. What Christian sect is Secretly making ANY blood Sacrifices, Much less Human.


What I can do is like you did earlier point out that His view or the view of a group like that is Extreme or Not inline with what was taught from the founders and history of the religion.

Christain has it's own baggage but it can Clearly go back to the source Jesus and the prophets and Defend there actions and words Primarly as the definition morality and kindness. Child sacrifice is Never promoted, Abraham was not allowed to do it, (as all of the religions surrounding him were) even in metaphor it was stopped. and God through Moses Strictly forbad it. And condemned it among the people which surrounded Israel.

Now, I've said SEVERAL TIMES that I don't believe this is general practice among Hindus, Just as the Times Article stated. BUT it appears clear that there is a significant body of people that claim to be teachers of the ways of KALI that DO think Child sacrifice and other types of Blood rituals are in fact what KALI desires. They are not making the teaching up, it derive them from where you made your defense. YOU tell me "it doesn't mean that " fine. And again I've read history that mentioned that a 100 years ago there was a child sacrifice daily.

Read this Carefully Windsong. I DO NOT THINK THIS IS THE PRACTICE OF MOST HINDUS. I'll not say it again.
But the practice WAS wide spread and human sacrifice WAS a COMMON understanding of what Kali some times wanted and Some still believe it so. I'm not counting heads, i don't know how many do, a minotriy i'd assume but since YOU SAW blood sacrifice OBVIOUSLY MANY take BLOOD literally not figuratively/metaphorically of emotions etcetc as you say it REALLY means.


Deny it if you will,
We'll disagree i guess.

I'd be nice if you could acknowledge the facts though.

moving forward I'll only say that the idea of the practice does come from an old established interpretation of the teachings of Kali, Kali wants blood. Hindus have to own that, if honesty is a part of their faith.

Concerning Chick, they are not making a blanket statement but using one example , a real one they say, that shows how SOME forms of Hinduism ARE practiced. Some people who've lived in India will be able to IMMEDIATELY recognize it as true even though it pains you to see it portrayed.

So, so far no foul, as far as i can tell, I'll comment on the rest of their characterization later.

if we can make it off the 1st page.

Your assertion is that Hindus are into ritual murder, and that murder is a religious practice. Murder isn't a Hindu practice, any more than polygamy is a Mormon practice.

Hindus do not have to own this aberrant behavior anymore than YOU have to own the Christians who support killing gays in Uganda.

I acknowledge that some bizarre cult is killing children but I disagree it has anything to do with Kali practice. Kali is NOT a God. It is a meditational deity--a visualization with symbolic meaning and nourishes spiritual growth.

I'm making a broader point here regarding Eastern religions. Some people read a prejudical article and form an erroneous opinion of the religious practice. A Kali death cult exists, but it has very little to do with Hinduism and meditational deities like Kali.

You're still painting Hindus with a broad brush and completely misunderstanding what meditational deity practice ACTUALLY is in Hinduism and Buddhism.

You know perfectly well that EVERYTHING Chick does is about proselitizing his brand of fundamentalist Christianity.

[revelarts]

Your assertion is that Hindus are into ritual murder, and that murder is a religious practice. Murder isn't a Hindu practice, any more than polygamy is a Mormon practice.

Hindus do not have to own this aberrant behavior anymore than YOU have to own the Christians who support killing gays in Uganda.

I acknowledge that some bizarre cult is killing children but I disagree it has anything to do with Kali practice. Kali is NOT a God. It is a meditational deity--a visualization with symbolic meaning and nourishes spiritual growth.

I'm making a broader point here regarding Eastern religions. Some people read a prejudical article and form an erroneous opinion of the religious practice. A Kali death cult exists, but it has very little to do with Hinduism and meditational deities like Kali.

You're still painting Hindus with a broad brush and completely misunderstanding what meditational deity practice ACTUALLY is in Hinduism and Buddhism.

You know perfectly well that EVERYTHING Chick does is about proselitizing his brand of fundamentalist Christianity.

What where the blood sacrifices you saw Indian about Windsong?

[Wind Song]

What where the blood sacrifices you saw Indian about Windsong?


I didn't actually see the blood sacrifices. I saw a Nepali man carrying about 6 live chickens on his bicycle outside a temple. There are as many ways of practicing Hinduism as there are Christians sects.

Usually Hindus are vegetarian and would not be sacrificing animals. They would make offerings of food, tea, and incense.

[cadet]

Here is how prejudice works. You already have a view, (that any religion other than your own is evil), you find one or two instances where something dreadful has been done in the name of religion and you use that incident or incidents to blanket condemn the entire religion.

Fred Phelps is an example of a wacky man who calls himself "Christian" in the same way the child murderer in the Jack Chick tract calls himself Hindu. Are all fundamentalist Christians like Jack Chick or Fred Phelps? No, of course not.

People do the same with Islam. You don't look for moderate, sweet people who are practicing Muslims, you (collective you) think the radicals that get all the media coverage are the REAL Islam and the dear sweet people are the "whitewashed" Muslims.

It's faulty thinking, but we all do it.

We could examine prejudice, in general, but that wouldn't be the thread topic.

Song, i would just like to point out that almost every one of your posts is about those "stupid judgmental jerk Christians."
I'd just like to say, how's your medicine taste?

[Wind Song]

Song, i would just like to point out that almost every one of your posts is about those "stupid judgmental jerk Christians."
I'd just like to say, how's your medicine taste?


That's not true, but I see it's your opinion and perception. You'd have to walk in my shoes this lifetime to know whey some Christians tick me off. It's the arrogance that goes into telling everyone else who isn't a Christian that we're losers.

Are you trying to open up a dialogue with me or shut one down? I can't tell.

[revelarts]

When I traveled in Nepal and India I saw animal sacrifices, mostly chickens or goats. Hardly a bad thing, considering the number animals regularly slaughtered just for food. Chick tracts are an irresponsible source of knowledge about Eastern religions. Very dangerous. Most likely to support misunderstanding and prejudice.

I didn't actually see the blood sacrifices. I saw a Nepali man carrying about 6 live chickens on his bicycle outside a temple. There are as many ways of practicing Hinduism as there are Christians sects.Usually Hindus are vegetarian and would not be sacrificing animals. They would make offerings of food, tea, and incense.





um, ok
which is it?

I really can't trust what you say about it at this point , you blame chick of prejudiced and misrepresentation irresponsible dangerous ... but you give me 2 different stories about what you say you saw. It seems your just making up stuff to defend Hinduism, not really concerned about all the facts.

I think I'll trust the Times of India and Time magazine and how about this one
http://www.thebuddhagarden.com/blog/kali-hindu-goddess/
A Buddhist Site that describes Hindu Kali worship.
It calls Kali a goddess
and
...One of the few Hindu deities to whom blood sacrifices are still made...

Well looks like some Buddhist even agree with Chick on these points.

[Wind Song]

[LEFT]

um, ok
which is it?

I really can't trust what you say about it at this point , you blame chick of prejudiced and misrepresentation but you give me 2 different stories about what you say you saw. It seems your just making up stuff to defend Hinduism, not really concerned about all the facts.

I think I'll trust the Times of India and Time magazine and how about this one
http://www.thebuddhagarden.com/blog/kali-hindu-goddess/
A Buddhist Site that describes Hindu Kali worship.
It calls Kali a goddess
and

Well looks like some Buddhist even agree with Chick on these points.

Sorry you're not willing to keep discussing this with me so I could explain what I meant.
Two different stories? I think not. You misunderstood my posts. There is no contradiction in my statements about my travels.

Get all your info about Hindus and Buddhist from Chick.

I don't take lightly to being told I'm a liar because you can't understand what I'm saying.

[DragonStryk72]

um, ok
which is it?

I really can't trust what you say about it at this point , you blame chick of prejudiced and misrepresentation irresponsible dangerous ... but you give me 2 different stories about what you say you saw. It seems your just making up stuff to defend Hinduism, not really concerned about all the facts.

I think I'll trust the Times of India and Time magazine and how about this one
http://www.thebuddhagarden.com/blog/kali-hindu-goddess/
A Buddhist Site that describes Hindu Kali worship.
It calls Kali a goddess
and

Well looks like some Buddhist even agree with Chick on these points.

Look, Rev, buddy, I get what you're doing. You are trying like hell to have an informed, reasonable debate, and I've been trying to stay out of WS way, but seriously, you are wasting so much effort. It wouldn't matter if you got the Dalai Lama admitting to the accuracy of it, she's not gonna back down, or admit wrong in any way.

[Wind Song]

Look, Rev, buddy, I get what you're doing. You are trying like hell to have an informed, reasonable debate, and I've been trying to stay out of WS way, but seriously, you are wasting so much effort. It wouldn't matter if you got the Dalai Lama admitting to the accuracy of it, she's not gonna back down, or admit wrong in any way.


Keep going DS, maybe you can get Rev to join your IGNORE WINDSONG club. WTF is this the sandbox?

[revelarts]

My final attempt on this point WS


Sorry you're not willing to keep discussing this with me so I could explain what I meant.
Two different stories? I think not. You misunderstood my posts. There is no contradiction in my statements about my travels.

Get all your info about Hindus and Buddhist from Chick.

I don't take lightly to being told I'm a liar because you can't understand what I'm saying.

Alright Windsong, I'll take the 2nd version as the clearest of what you meant.

You DID NOT SEE any sacrifice Just a man with chickens near a temple. OK fine.

Well I did a search on youtube, which some folk here don't like and onces I sign in to view adult content i was able to Several Hindu blood sacrifices of goats to KALI. some in India some in Nepal some in other far eastern countries. Part of The ritual seems pretty consistant. Pray and sprinkle the animal with a liquid of some kind, Cut the head off and drag the body in circle around a post of some kind.
One video shows shows several heads with burning candles atop and body of a young goat laid in front of a shine with Kali's image at the top. most of these vids seem to be by participant or tourist with zero commentary.
I'm not going to post any, don't take my word for it look it up yourself.
I've seen it now.

the words Kali and sacrifice is all you need to find them.

Maybe you are not aware of this aparently wide spread practice. I wasn't. At many of these there are dozens or hundreds of people gathered for the event. And its done in the town square in some.


What your saying about Kali in Hinduism may be ONE way but it is not the ONLY way Hindus Approach Kali.



http://www.ilcerchiodellaluna.it/immagini/kalinepal.jpgKali, of undisputable impact, .... It only takes to enter once in one of Kali’s temples, maybe Khaligat in Calcutta, or in Kathmandu, from which the image on the left comes, of one holding a wrathful Kali – though we’ll also see her in pacified forms – not to ever forget her.

If the temple is crowded, packed with people, women, men, children, as it often happens there, you must push through, find space, wait and let the crowd carry you through the corridors, so that, when you suddenly find yourself in front of Her, the surprise blends with the impact. Otherwise, if it’s a minor temple, or a calmer time, you can arrive pronto, even too quickly, in front of the Murti (2), of the Goddess who’s already there, not only in Her image but in Her Presence.

In both cases, you’re overwhelmed by a world of scents and spices and flowers and above all, intense, the pungent smell of the red kettle and that nauseating of animal blood. Rivers of red poured over the Black Goddess, at Her feet, flowing to the basements, on Her limbs, on Her tongue. The power of Her arms, the outline of Her necklace’s skulls, Her gaping mouth. She is black, towering, striking.

No chance for those standing before Her. An encounter with no discounts, no mediations, with themselves and with Herself, as if they were one and, at the same time, the encounter with what is more alien and obscure – with terror and nameless fear.
Kali forces you to complete nudity, to an encounter at the mirror, and for this characteristic she’s also at the core of the tantric spiritual path. She represents the breaking of every pattern, of every preconceived form;.....
http://www.ilcerchiodellaluna.it/central_ENGdee_Kali.html


So there is blood lots of it, in some common forms of Hinduism, specifically to Kali but other deities as well. Animals at best (which I have only a little problem with) but tragically on rare occasion humans as well.

[Noir]

Poor children ): They tend to get the rough end of religion, children and virgins. Be middle aged, be promiscuous, be safe!

[tailfins]

Look, Rev, buddy, I get what you're doing. You are trying like hell to have an informed, reasonable debate, and I've been trying to stay out of WS way, but seriously, you are wasting so much effort. It wouldn't matter if you got the Dalai Lama admitting to the accuracy of it, she's not gonna back down, or admit wrong in any way.

I consider Dottie like a video game. If you press the "M" key, your object will move with the mouse click. She is what she is. If you take her more seriously than a game, you are setting yourself up for being annoyed.

[Wind Song]

My final attempt on this point WS



Alright Windsong, I'll take the 2nd version as the clearest of what you meant.

You DID NOT SEE any sacrifice Just a man with chickens near a temple. OK fine.

Well I did a search on youtube, which some folk here don't like and onces I sign in to view adult content i was able to Several Hindu blood sacrifices of goats to KALI. some in India some in Nepal some in other far eastern countries. Part of The ritual seems pretty consistant. Pray and sprinkle the animal with a liquid of some kind, Cut the head off and drag the body in circle around a post of some kind.
One video shows shows several heads with burning candles atop and body of a young goat laid in front of a shine with Kali's image at the top. most of these vids seem to be by participant or tourist with zero commentary.
I'm not going to post any, don't take my word for it look it up yourself.
I've seen it now.

the words Kali and sacrifice is all you need to find them.

Maybe you are not aware of this aparently wide spread practice. I wasn't. At many of these there are dozens or hundreds of people gathered for the event. And its done in the town square in some.


What your saying about Kali in Hinduism may be ONE way but it is not the ONLY way Hindus Approach Kali.


http://www.ilcerchiodellaluna.it/central_ENGdee_Kali.html


So there is blood lots of it, in some common forms of Hinduism, specifically to Kali but other deities as well. Animals at best (which I have only a little problem with) but tragically on rare occasion humans as well.

Just once, I'd like to know that you actually read what I've written about meditational deity practice. I don't deny that you have found evidence of a Kali death cult, but it isn't what Kali practice is supposed to be about. Kali is supposed to be about the end of death through the deathlessness of pure meditative practice. You have found the worst example of Kali practice there is-- a death cult, and it is NOT what Kali is supposed to be about. Fundamentalists tend to concretize and solidify spirtual practices. I see this Kali cult as an example of fundamentalist Hinduism gone wrong. There are cults in India, and one them is even cannabalistic. Can you separate a cult from a religion? I hope so.


"Find a picture of Kali, preferably a detailed and beautiful one. Look at the image, noting her beautiful face, her wild hair, her upraised sword. Look at her necklace of skulls. Notice the emotions that come up as you look at her. Notice especially such charged emotions as fear, excitement, aversion, confusion, or attraction. Ask the universe to help you experience Kali's love. Once you've become familiar with her visual form, take a few moments to meditate (http://www.debatepolicy.com/practice/141) on her.
Imagine Kali sitting before you. Feel that an energy of blessing filled with strength, love, and wisdom arises from her heart in a stream of blue light and enters your own heart. Feel that Kali's blessings purify your heart of fear and anger. If you like, you can imagine her drawing those negative emotions out of you and dissolving them like smoke. Feel her blessings coursing through your body, opening you to strength, enlightened clarity, and love.
Fold your hands in Anjali Mudra and offer thanks."
http://www.yogajournal.com/practice/2682

[Wind Song]

<TBODY>





</TBODY>
Kali is the universal mother. It is believed that she goes into the darkness with us, and for us, to swallow our sins, worries and concerns. She can show us how to radically transform our lives by embracing our own darkness, rather than fearing and fleeing from that which haunts us. She can spiritually hack away at the handcuffs that keep us shackled to the hungry ghosts of the past. There comes a point in the process when you must surrender fully to her healing powers, and let her bring you back cleansed, transformed, whole.
http://www.dollsofindia.com/library/article0009/2/

[Missileman]

My final attempt on this point WS



Alright Windsong, I'll take the 2nd version as the clearest of what you meant.

You DID NOT SEE any sacrifice Just a man with chickens near a temple. OK fine.

Well I did a search on youtube, which some folk here don't like and onces I sign in to view adult content i was able to Several Hindu blood sacrifices of goats to KALI. some in India some in Nepal some in other far eastern countries. Part of The ritual seems pretty consistant. Pray and sprinkle the animal with a liquid of some kind, Cut the head off and drag the body in circle around a post of some kind.
One video shows shows several heads with burning candles atop and body of a young goat laid in front of a shine with Kali's image at the top. most of these vids seem to be by participant or tourist with zero commentary.
I'm not going to post any, don't take my word for it look it up yourself.
I've seen it now.

the words Kali and sacrifice is all you need to find them.

Maybe you are not aware of this aparently wide spread practice. I wasn't. At many of these there are dozens or hundreds of people gathered for the event. And its done in the town square in some.


What your saying about Kali in Hinduism may be ONE way but it is not the ONLY way Hindus Approach Kali.


http://www.ilcerchiodellaluna.it/central_ENGdee_Kali.html


So there is blood lots of it, in some common forms of Hinduism, specifically to Kali but other deities as well. Animals at best (which I have only a little problem with) but tragically on rare occasion humans as well.

Kali has established this method for her followers to seek her favor. Who are you to judge a god?

[Wind Song]

[QUOTE=Missileman;544046]Kali has established this method for her followers to seek her favor. Who are you to judge a god?[/QUOTE



Kali has not chosen blood sacrifice as a method. Ignorant people have chosen this method with no understanding of the SYMBOLIC nature of spiritual practice. Kali is not a god but a medititational deity.

Sacrifice is included in many spiritual traditions--including Christianity. This practice of killing animals or people and offering blood is supposed to be symbolic, not actual.

Just as communion is the blood and body of Christ symbolically offered.

Actual animal or human sacrifice is fundamentalism gone wrong, once again. The fundies in every religion get it wrong.

[Missileman]

Kali has not chosen blood sacrifice as a method. Ignorant people have chosen this method with no understanding of the SYMBOLIC nature of spiritual practice. Kali is not a god but a medititational deity.

Sacrifice is included in many spiritual traditions--including Christianity. This practice of killing animals or people and offering blood is supposed to be symbolic, not actual.

Just as communion is the blood and body of Christ symbolically offered.

Actual animal or human sacrifice is fundamentalism gone wrong, once again. The fundies in every religion get it wrong.

I disagree...if Kali weren't interested in the sacrifices, she would put an end to them.

[Wind Song]

I disagree...if Kali weren't interested in the sacrifices, she would put an end to them.


This statement shows your ignorance. You're assuming Kali is a "God" and not a meditational deity. Those who think of Kali as a "God" are deluded. She is a symbolic representation of the qualities of enlightenment and NOT a god.

The analogy of the Kali god versus the Kali meditational deity is as if a Christian took the ACTUAL body and blood of Jesus for communion rather than the symbolic wine and bread offering at communion.


Christians feel they offer themselves to God when they have communion. Their body and soul.

Sacrifice is common to almost all spiritual paths. This Kali death cult of revelarts is an abomination, and it totally sets up ALL Hindus to be hated and feared. That's the whole purpose of Jack Chick tracts, to promote prejudice.

[Wind Song]

<TBODY>
Listen to me, Death!

Listen to me, Death!
You must leave here immediately.
How can you touch me?
I have captured Goddess Kali.
I have bound her hands and feet
with adamantine strands of pure love.
Her intimate presence alone
now shines from the stronghold of my heart.
The twelve-petal lotus that floats in my chest
is surrounded by her fierce flames.
I contemplate with awe
the thousand-petal lotus at my crown
where the golden honey of mystic union
is flowing eternally.
O Mother Kundalini,
my entire being is swept upward continuously
by your current of wisdom energy.
I have taken precautions so that Goddess Kali
cannot escape from within me.
Single-minded devotion guards her with every breath.
These two eyes are her gatekeepers.
My third eye has become her own clear vision.
Suspecting that the fatal fever of egocentricity
would attack my mind and body,
I have taken the ancient remedy
prescribed by my illumined master.
The medicine Om Kali, taken four times daily,
cures the chronic illness of me! me! me!
Emboldened by the indwelling of the Mother,
this warrior poet calls out:
“Listen to me, Death, so your insane pride
will at last be humbled.
You can take away only this form.
I have already begun my deathless journey,
chanting Kali! Kali! Kali!


</TBODY>
http://www.thesoulsjourney.com/kali.html

[revelarts]

[QUOTE=Missileman;544046]Kali has established this method for her followers to seek her favor. Who are you to judge a god?[/QUOTE

Kali has not chosen blood sacrifice as a method. Ignorant people have chosen this method with no understanding of the SYMBOLIC nature of spiritual practice. Kali is not a god but a medititational deity.

IF Kali is not a "god" but a "meditational god" How would you know any better than anyone else what it/she wants?





Sacrifice is included in many spiritual traditions--including Christianity. This practice of killing animals or people and offering blood is supposed to be symbolic, not actual. Just as communion is the blood and body of Christ symbolically offered.
True and false. In Christianity the sacrifice is literal, Jesus Died literally. His death and Blood is literally covering and literally cleansing of the sins of mankind.

the communion Jesus Said is a reminder of that, "do this in remembrance of me". it is Symbolic . Or always had been up until some few Catholic church leaders claimed -a new teaching- that in the mass Catholic priest actually recreate the literal -in some sense- body and blood of Christ, transubstantiation , i believe they call it. It's one of the things the Reformation priest and scholars like John Wycliffe attempted to get the Catholic Church to correct.





Actual animal or human sacrifice is fundamentalism gone wrong, once again. The fundies in every religion get it wrong.

That's kind of a blanket statement , don't you think? I didn't realize that some Buddhist were so dogmatic about there beliefs, i thought it was more a live and let live kind of thing but your Condemning folks saying they are just WRONG. That they are a Death cult, they're Wrong... Christians are wrong... Atheist are wrong... Fundamentalism of EVERY religion is wrong.

You sound pretty fundamental yourself in the sense that you seem to believe there is only ONE correct spiritual path for everyone.
YOUR form of Buddhism.

That's your thing ok,
You say Kali is Beautiful and to meditate on her pretty face, bloody skulls, tongue etc for enlightenment.
Well sorry the God I know says that at best "an idol is NOTHING" and at worse those who worship idols that “They sacrificed to demons who are not God".


So it seems the God of the Bible, the one that says he's the creator of all things in heavens and the earth, says Your wrong.

People should look at both claims to see which, if either, are true.

[Wind Song]

[QUOTE=Wind Song;544050]

IF Kali is not a "god" but a "meditational god" How would you know any better than anyone else what it/she wants?




True and false. In Christianity the sacrifice is literal, Jesus Died literally. His death and Blood is literally covering and literally cleansing of the sins of mankind.

the communion Jesus Said is a reminder of that, "do this in remembrance of me". it is Symbolic . Of alway had been up until some Catholic church leader claimed -a new teaching- that Catholic priest actually recreate the literal -in some sense- body and blood of Christ in the mass, transubstantiation , i believe they call it. It's one of the things the Reformation priest and scholars like John Wycliffe attempted to get the Catholic Church to correct.





That's kind of a blanket statement , don't you think? I didn't realize that some Buddhist were so dogmatic about there beliefs, i thought it was more a live and let live kind of thing but your Condemning folks saying they are WRONG. The are a Death cult they're Wrong, Christians are wrong, Atheist are wrong, Fundamentalism of EVERY religion is wrong.

You sound pretty fundamental yourself in the sense that you seem to believe there is only ONE correct spiritual path for everyone.
YOUR form of Buddhism.

That's your thing ok,
You say Kali is Beautiful and to meditate on her pretty face, bloody skulls, tongue etc for enlightenment.
Well sorry the God I know says that at best "an idol is NOTHING" and at worse those to worship idols that “They sacrificed to demons who are not God".


So it seems the God of the Bible, the one that says he's the creator of all things in heavens and the earth, says Your wrong.

People should to look at both claims to see which, if either, are true.

You write very long posts and if I took time to straighten out every single one of your misconceptions I would be here all day and night.

Here's your first problem:

"IF Kali is not a "god" but a "meditational god" How would you know any better than anyone else what it/she wants?"

Meditational deities are symbolic representations of enlightened qualities. They don't have personhood in the way you understand yourself and God. Qualities like love, compassion, joy and equanimity are actually formless, unpindownable.

Kali isn't a he she or it. You should think of Kali images as blueprints for enlightened mind, like codes that remind us of the qualities we seek to bring forth in meditation.

Kali is an easy to remember image because she is so shocking in appearance. Her meaning is ineffable, unpindownable. You only know her as meditative absorption as qualities of love.

Since you don't have teachings on emptiness, which is why Christianity isn't a path to enlightenment, you cannot understand that it is a mistake to make an idol out of Kali. You rightly point to the death cults who have done just that. They are completely misguided. Their sacrifices are doing nothing but helping them make it to hell since they are killing in the name of a god who doesn't even exist.

Kali is NOT a God.

Just as communion is symbolic, body and blood, are represented in wine and bread, the sacrifices that one might offer to a meditational deity can be merely visualized.

If the Kali cult you describe truly understood the meaning of the teachings on emptiness, they would know that want Kali wants is "attachment" to the things of this world, including one's loved one, children and wives. NOT the actual life of your child.

[revelarts]

[QUOTE=revelarts;544123]

You write very long posts and if I took time to straighten out every single one of your misconceptions I would be here all day and night.

Here's your first problem:

"IF Kali is not a "god" but a "meditational god" How would you know any better than anyone else what it/she wants?"

Meditational deities are symbolic representations of enlightened qualities. They don't have personhood in the way you understand yourself and God. Qualities like love, compassion, joy and equanimity are actually formless, unpindownable.

Kali isn't a he she or it. You should think of Kali images as blueprints for enlightened mind, like codes that remind us of the qualities we seek to bring forth in meditation.

Kali is an easy to remember image because she is so shocking in appearance. Her meaning is ineffable, unpindownable. You only know her as meditative absorption as qualities of love.

Since you don't have teachings on emptiness, which is why Christianity isn't a path to enlightenment, you cannot understand that it is a mistake to make an idol out of Kali. You rightly point to the death cults who have done just that. They are completely misguided. Their sacrifices are doing nothing but helping them make it to hell since they are killing in the name of a god who doesn't even exist.

Kali is NOT a God.

Just as communion is symbolic, body and blood, are represented in wine and bread, the sacrifices that one might offer to a meditational deity can be merely visualized.

If the Kali cult you describe truly understood the meaning of the teachings on emptiness, they would know that want Kali wants is "attachment" to the things of this world, including one's loved one, children and wives. NOT the actual life of your child.

Sense all of the qualities you mention are "unpindownable" how can YOU be sure you haven't just missed what what Kali is REALLY teaching. or that the Kali death cult hasn't touched some symbolic bit of Kali that does connect with death and murder. Have you opened yourself enough to the symbols of dead babies in her ears? or the dead husband at her feet. or Necklace of heads and drawn sword?

WS at the very least it's counter intuitive to think of that image as representing LOVE in anyway.

However, You speak with a Certitude about items you claim are uncertain an ephemeral.

YOU MUST have a teaching and practice of Emptiness, to reach the unpindownalbe aspects of love and other good stuff in enlightenment.

----
And as far as Christian not having a empintess teaching your right, God wants us Filled with his Spirit, to be empowered to love, walk in peace and with His mind. meditating on his word and deeds.

Empting our minds and hearts is mentioned in one case where someone emptied himself of dark spirits and remained empty which allows even MORE dark spirits to come in and take up residence.
If you leave the door open you don't know what might blow in WS be careful.

[Wind Song]

[QUOTE=Wind Song;544124]

Sense all of the qualities you mention are "unpindownable" how can YOU be sure you haven't just missed what what Kali is REALLY teaching. or that the Kali death cult hasn't touched some symbolic bit of Kali that does connect with death and murder. Have you opened yourself enough to the symbols of dead babies in her ears? or the dead husband at her feet. or Necklace of heads and drawn sword?

WS at the very least it's counter intuitive to think of that image as representing LOVE in anyway.

However, You speak with a Certitude about items you claim are uncertain an ephemeral.

YOU MUST have a teaching and practice of Emptiness, to reach the unpindownalbe aspects of love and other good stuff in enlightenment.

----
And as far as Christian not having a empintess teaching your right, God wants us Filled with his Spirit, to be empowered to love, walk in peace and with His mind. meditating on his word and deeds.

Empting our minds and hearts is mentioned in one case where someone emptied himself of dark spirits and remained empty which allows even MORE dark spirits to come in and take up residence.
If you leave the door open you don't know what might blow in WS be careful.

Wrathful images in Hinduism and Buddhsim aren't understood well by Christians. Wrathful love is when you grab your child forcefully away from an oncoming car. It's not "nice".

It's ok that you don't understand. It would take me a long time to explain things to you and you aren't really all that interested. (at least, that's my impression since all you're looking for is evidence to back your prejudice). You've completely misunderstood nearly everything I've said already.

Please don't make the mistake of assuming I'm evil because you don't understand Hinduism or Buddhism. You're very superstitious about other people's religions. Please don't tell me I'd kill babies. That's ridiculous.

The body at the feet of Kali image symbolizes her subjugation of ego. It's not her husband, LOL.

Without a teaching on emptiness, what one creates is gods and demons. You're creating the demon in the same way that the Kali death cult is. You thinking Kali has some true, inherent existence as a god or a demon. You think the way they do. You think Kali is a god/demon and they think Kali is a god and they act like demons. You think your God is a personality and solid, or eternal and you think yourself solid and eternal. You think that when you die you'll look like yourself and be with other people who look the way you've known them in this life.

That's not tantra. Meditational deities are merely a skillful means to come into wisdom. That's not how Hindus and Buddhists see meditational deities.
Obviously, the fundamentalist Kali death cult is not the transcendental wisdom of Hindu teachings.

The cult is completely misguided about Kali and so are you.

[revelarts]

Meditational deities are symbolic representations of enlightened qualities. They don't have personhood in the way you understand yourself and God. Qualities like love, compassion, joy and equanimity are actually formless, unpindownable.

Kali isn't a he she or it. You should think of Kali images as blueprints for enlightened mind, like codes that remind us of the qualities we seek to bring forth in meditation.

Kali is an easy to remember image because she is so shocking in appearance. Her meaning is ineffable, unpindownable. You only know her as meditative absorption as qualities of love.
Kali is NOT a God.
the sacrifices that one might offer to a meditational deity can be merely visualized.
If the Kali cult you describe truly understood the meaning of the teachings on emptiness, they would know that want Kali wants is "attachment" to the things of this world, including one's loved one, children and wives. NOT the actual life of your child.

You're assuming Kali is a "God" and not a meditational deity. Those who think of Kali as a "God" are deluded. She is a symbolic representation of the qualities of enlightenment and NOT a god.


Then at one point you say this:



<tbody>





</tbody>
Kali is the universal mother.
It is believed that she goes into the darkness with us, and for us, to swallow our sins, worries and concerns. She can show us how to radically transform our lives by embracing our own darkness, rather than fearing and fleeing from that which haunts us. She can spiritually hack away at the handcuffs that keep us shackled to the hungry ghosts of the past. There comes a point in the process when you must surrender fully to her healing powers, and let her bring you back cleansed, transformed, whole.
http://www.dollsofindia.com/library/article0009/2/

....Ask the universe to help you experience Kali's love.....
...Feel that Kali's blessings ...
...Feel her blessings coursing through your body, opening you to strength, enlightened clarity, and love. Fold your hands in Anjali Mudra and offer thanks."...


using all of these terms LOADED with "personhood" and independent volition for your version of Kali. I'm not sure How one might misunderstand what your saying WS

Universal Mother, a person, She a person, can show us ,...She can.. Her Healing power... shes bringing you back..

If you'd preface your words with something like ,
"we visualize IMAGINE kali and our spirit connects with the universe though the prism of her/its image and YOU are able to see... and YOU are enabled swallow your sin... and YOU can Spiritually hack... and Your Healing powers are enhanced as the CONCEPT not the PERSON of Kali in your IMAGINATION cleases and transforms you. Becuase KALI is not real just a way to touch the untouchable universe with your own soul. "
Or Sumthin

But noooo, you didn't say stuff like that you said, "Kali IS the MOM of the universe.... feel her love."

How About using language that is not personal if you want people to understand that your are NOT talking about a person, or a spirit.

But I've got a feeling your going to tell me I still don't get it
that Kali is not an "It", a "her" a "spirit" or a "template". But that SHE is powerful and loving and beautiful, and kind and SHE WANTS you to....
And HER enlightenment is for people who aren't full, idiots, fools or prejudice and ignorant.
Seem to me the ones that just might need enlightenment but i guess Jesus has to help them out.


WS please explain the Hindu Cast system to me now and why that's good and wholesome if we meditate on it and are enlightened.

[Wind Song]

Then at one point you say this:




using all of these terms LOADED with "personhood" and independent volition for your version of Kali. I'm not sure How one might misunderstand what your saying WS

Universal Mother, a person, She a person, can show us ,...She can.. Her Healing power... shes bringing you back..

If you'd preface your words with something like ,
"we visualize IMAGINE kali and our spirit connects with the universe though the prism of her/its image and YOU are able to see... and YOU are enabled swallow your sin... and YOU can Spiritually hack... and Your Healing powers are enhanced as the CONCEPT not the PERSON of Kali in your IMAGINATION cleases and transforms you. Becuase KALI is not real just a way to touch the untouchable universe with your own soul. "
Or Sumthin

But noooo, you didn't say stuff like that you said, "Kali IS the MOM of the universe.... feel her love."

How About using language that is not personal if you want people to understand that your are NOT talking about a person, or a spirit.

But I've got a feeling your going to tell me I still don't get it
that Kali is not an "It", a "her" a "spirit" or a "template". But that SHE is powerful and loving and beautiful, and kind and SHE WANTS you to....
And HER enlightenment is for people who aren't full, idiots, fools or prejudice and ignorant.
Seem to me the ones that just might need enlightenment but i guess Jesus has to help them out.


WS please explain the Hindu Cast system to me now and why that's good and wholesome if we meditate on it and are enlightened.


I give up. I don't think you're in the slightest bit interested in tolerating other religions on earth. I might have half a chance of explaining this to you on the phone or in person but doing this way is tedious and we're not making any progress.

You have made up your mind that you are an instant expert on all things Hindu. It's a big mistake for me to try and explain something subtle to a fundamentalist.

[revelarts]

I give up. I don't think you're in the slightest bit interested in tolerating other religions on earth. I might have half a chance of explaining this to you on the phone or in person but doing this way is tedious and we're not making any progress.

You have made up your mind that you are an instant expert on all things Hindu. It's a big mistake for me to try and explain something subtle to a fundamentalist.
Thanks for your tolerant , subtle, loving and enlightened reply? :rolleyes:

[Wind Song]

Thanks for your tolerant , subtle, loving and enlightened reply? :rolleyes:

True enough. I lost patience. My bad.

Write me off. Who cares?

BTW, the Buddha wanted to eliminate the Hindu caste system and wasn't able to. A caste system isn't consistent with Buddhist principles.

Did it ever occur to you, that the caste system may be related to this Hindu Kali murder cult?

High Hindus (Brahmin) are all vegetarian.

If you want to know what Hinduism is at it's best, look into Anandamayi Ma, a Hindu saint who died in 1982.

[jimnyc]

Write me off. Who cares?

Are you going to pull this routine until you are a victim of every member of the board, so that you can claim everyone hates you? Revelarts doesn't really "flame" with others and likes to get involved in long healthy discussions. He did nothing wrong here that I can see other than respond and ask questions.

[Wind Song]

Revelarts doesn't really "flame" with others and likes to get involved in long healthy discussions. He did nothing wrong here that I can see other than respond and ask questions.

I didn't say revelarts did anything wrong. I don't think he hates me. Stop interfering.

[jimnyc]

I didn't say revelarts did anything wrong. I don't think he hates me. Stop interfering.

Thought I was trying to help, but will do. No more "interference" from me, although I was merely trying to keep you from alienating yet another member. I'll stop. Peace!

[Wind Song]

Thought I was trying to help, but will do. No more "interference" from me, although I was merely trying to keep you from alienating yet another member. I'll stop. Peace!

If you want to comment on the topic, that would be great.

I appreciate that you have good motivation in your prior comments and were trying to help. What difference does it make to you whether I'm accepted here or not?

Half the community has me on ignore. So be it.

My aunt used to give me the silent treatment. She did that for weeks at a time trying to break my spirit.

[tailfins]

Are you going to pull this routine until you are a victim of every member of the board, so that you can claim everyone hates you? Revelarts doesn't really "flame" with others and likes to get involved in long healthy discussions. He did nothing wrong here that I can see other than respond and ask questions.

If you think of Dottie in this manner, it will give you the right frame of reference.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6NzGj1eWc0

[tailfins]

My aunt used to give me the silent treatment. She did that for weeks at a time trying to break my spirit.


This just goes to show how you and I react differently to things. I had a relative try that for a YEAR. I told her I was already accustomed not having her in my life and thought it better we permanently part company. She tried fighting with me at my mom's funeral. I coldly told her further attempts to communicate with me will result in criminal charges. It also sent a message to other members of my family that I consider doing that as permanent.

[avatar4321]

True enough. I lost patience. My bad.

Write me off. Who cares?

BTW, the Buddha wanted to eliminate the Hindu caste system and wasn't able to. A caste system isn't consistent with Buddhist principles.

Did it ever occur to you, that the caste system may be related to this Hindu Kali murder cult?

High Hindus (Brahmin) are all vegetarian.

If you want to know what Hinduism is at it's best, look into Anandamayi Ma, a Hindu saint who died in 1982.

We all lose our patience. It happens. Now try not to in the future.

Class systems are always wrong. Thats why i hate people trying to divide people by class in America. They are trying to create division when we should be seeking unity.

[Wind Song]

We all lose our patience. It happens. Now try not to in the future.

Class systems are always wrong. Thats why i hate people trying to divide people by class in America. They are trying to create division when we should be seeking unity.

We all lose our patience. The next sentence is your unsolicited advice.

The Buddha tried to get the caste system outlawed in India, but he was unsuccessful.

The closet we have to a class system in America is the denial of civil marriage equality to gay and lesbian families.

[tailfins]

We all lose our patience. The next sentence is your unsolicited advice.

The Buddha tried to get the caste system outlawed in India, but he was unsuccessful.

The closet we have to a class system in America is the denial of civil marriage equality to gay and lesbian families.

When you're holding a hammer, everything looks like a nail. We have a caste system in America. The untouchables are those with even an old criminal record such as this example in the news yesterday. http://www.todaystmj4.com/news/local/150363015.html

On a different topic, I had just about the entire board on my left earlier today. It left me curious where you stand on this: Do you eat Foie Gras?

[Wind Song]

I've been asked to not post unless I can do so "nicely".

I have no idea what you're talking about foie gras.

[tailfins]

I've been asked to not post unless I can do so "nicely".

I have no idea what you're talking about foie gras.

Mule muffins. Say what you think, I don't care as long as you don't swear. I had the board grossed out because I think eating Foie Gras is OK and even a nice treat once in awhile.

[Wind Song]

Mule muffins. Say what you think, I don't care as long as you don't swear. I had the board grossed out because I think eating Foie Gras is OK and even a nice treat once in awhile.

No, sorry.

I'm just staying on the poem and music threads in order to stay out of trouble.

[tailfins]

No, sorry.

I'm just staying on the poem and music threads in order to stay out of trouble.


You shouldn't have to walk on eggshells like that. Stifling someone's opinion doesn't mean it isn't there anymore. Too few people understand that for every point of view you find, there are likely thousands more just like it somewhere. I'm not worried about what you say, but how you say it could be a problem.

[Wind Song]

You shouldn't have to walk on eggshells like that. Stifling someone's opinion doesn't mean it isn't there anymore. Too few people understand that for every point of view you find, there are likely thousands more just like it somewhere. I'm not worried about what you say, but how you say it could be a problem.


Until I can say, what I want to say, in the DP way, I'm mute.

[kalibhakta]

I was quoting News sources where people confess to the practice of child sacrifice for KALI.

you may not think Hindus do this, MOST Hindus I'm sure do not, however like radical Islam apparently some do take what is written very literally what you consider symbolic ...

i've read more of these stories than i posted and in oneit said that Kali worshipers have a festival where worshipers paint and dress themselves like Kali and parade down the streets, while bystanders RUSH THEIR CHILDREN IN THE HOUSE AND LOCK THE DOORS.

I mean you know offense but this crap is real. No need to sugar coat it or deny it ...

There are Christians that handle snakes too but it's not main stream, But no laws are needed against it to try to ban the practice. in India it is a known and not Uncommon problem and there is a WELL known history of the practice being typical in some areas for centuries. See the history of the Thugge ...

maybe the version of Hinduism you've learned is a sanitized western version, i can't say, but don't deny the well reported reality here.

Hello,

My name is William Clark and I am a Kali bhakta from the USA who has lived in India extensively and am heading back in the near future. Most of my academic research and all of my devotion is dedicated specifically to Ma Kali. You can check out my recent essay on Kalighat, the famous Kali temple associated with many of the false, negative western perceptions of Kali which are being regurgitated here. Along with the essay, I have included some very detailed information on the practice of sacrificing goats which takes place there:

[Apparently, I am blocked from posting urls as a new member of this forum, but the website is ]

I found this messageboard while trying to find sources for some of the misinformation presented in the sensationalistic Time magazine article mentioned at the beginning of this thread.

For starters, I found the title "Killing for Kali" pretty crass because it's a reference to a scene in the 1939 film Gunga Din where a white man, painted brown, plays a diabolical Indian Kali priest and Thuggee leader who calls upon his followers to "Kill for the love of killing! Kill for Kali!" This character formed the basis for the villainous Kali priest, Mola Ram, in the film Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom.

The Time magazine article by Alex Perry goes on to provide an incredibly slanted perspective of traditions associated with Kali worship with one outrageous statement after another which are never backed by credible sources:

"Even 200 years ago, when a boy was killed every day at a Kali temple in Calcutta, blood cults were at odds with a benign Hindu spiritualism that celebrates abstinence and vegetarianism."

A statement like this is so loaded, I don't even know where to begin--but I will try to keep this short. The first part, "even 200 years ago, when a boy was killed every day at a Kali temple in Calcutta..." refers specifically to Kalighat where such events never took place. Although I didn't get very into it in my article, the priesthood at Kalighat--for over 250 years--are strict Vaishnavs by lineage and practicing vegetarians. Every historical source I have researched mentions nothing of the sacrifice of boys at Kalighat because it never happened. However, I would bet on the fact that it was mentioned in the Orientalist-fantasy literature penned during the period of British rule by Christian missionaries and colonial authorities, both of whom would have the agenda of suppressing and dominating the colonized native population. In fictional works, Kali was often used as the most convenient, most "exotic" plot device in Victorian novels which were filled with lurid tales of sexual excess, intoxication, and blood sacrifice all in the name of the Thuggee's patron Goddess of Doom. I think you get the idea. The author Alex Perry is referencing completely archaic and invalid sources when not inventing the backstory himself. It is interesting to note that many 19th century accounts of Kali's associated rites describe them much like an inverted Christian mass. In a word, she was demonized early on by colonizers and that false perception has lasted to the present day. For Bengali devotees, she is the Cosmic Mother--the opposite of evil.

The second part of the statement is just naive. I mean, what I get from it is that "blood cults" aren't a part of "Hindu spiritualism," which sounds like a real party because it "celebrates" abstinence and vegetarianism--good times. I understand that the author is trying to condense a tremendous amount of information for the sake of brevity, but that's exactly the problem with such an article--it ends up being a bunch of slanderous hogwash. Hinduism is commonly referred to as the "oldest living religion" in the world as its roots reach into prehistory. Let's return to those bloody sacrifices--if Kali is not evil, then why does she require blood?

She doesn't. I personally know quite a few Kali devotees will not even touch meat, but it is true that she is associated with animal sacrifice and carries a large sword. The fact of the matter is that Bengalis, unlike many Indians, are a traditionally meat-eating culture and goats are tasty. Being spiritually inclined, it makes sense they would develop ways to offer an animal they are going to eat before it is killed for their food. To take an animal's life is a rather intense act, but if you still want to eat it and have a religious disposition it would logically follow that you would attach spiritual significance to the act of slaughtering livestock. What is merely taking place is the phenomenon of religious folks blessing their meat--it's really nothing that "exotic" at all.

On numerous occasions, I have spent a good deal of time in the temple area where this takes place, talking with the men whose job it is to behead the goats. The sacrificial goat, as Kali's gift, is treated quite well by the family who purchases it. Before the immolation, there are some prayers said by a priest and it is sprinkled with water--similar to kosher (Judaism) and halal (Islam) practices. However, unlike the kosher and halal practice, the animal is not bled to death. In order for the ritual to be karmically pure, the animal must suffer as little as possible before it is killed. To this end, its neck is braced in a specially constructed post and the head is then cleanly chopped off with one sharp blow of the khadga--Kali's characteristic sword. The whole thing is over in a few of seconds. Honestly, having witnessed it myself countless times, I feel that such a swift end is ultimately more humane than what happens at factory farms here in the USA where animals undergo prolonged suffering, locked in cramped spaces much of their lives. Here we never see the process of slaughter involved in our consumption of meat, but in a place like West Bengal if you want to eat chicken you go to a market and pick out a live chicken which is then killed on the spot. It's a very different culture. I have visited Kalighat many times during different trips to India for nearly a decade. It always struck me as odd that many foreigners who regularly eat meat would freak out about the animal sacrifices. What they never notice is that following the sacrifice, the goat is taken to a designated area in the temple complex where the animal is butchered, dressed, and packaged for the contributing family to take home. To demonize the practice of goat sacrifice, is tantamount to demonizing the consumption of meat, which, like it or not, is common almost everywhere in the world. Again Alex Perry writes:

"Most Kali temples have settled on large pumpkins to represent a human body; other followers slit the throats of two-meter-tall human effigies made of flour, or of animals such as goats."

I have never seen anything even vaguely resembling these practices at any Kali temple that I have visited; I have been to many and certainly those which are historically and spiritually considered most important. Where the Hell did he get this from? It is not based upon reality.

Alex Perry goes on to claim that "tantrics say" (who? which Tantriks?) Kali takes care of those who take care of her, followed by "so far this year, police have recorded at least one case of ritual killing a month." Do you see how distorted this type of writing is? First he speaks on behalf of Tantriks and mentions Kali's name, then follows this up with a sentence making the shocking claim of one ritual murder per month. What qualifies as a ritual murder? He avoids being a flagrant liar here by not directly saying that the ritual murders were performed on Kali's behalf, but most readers will link the entire paragraph together. It is very poor, misleading writing and the worst kind of journalism. The whole paragraph is dedicated to a number of grisly murders, only one case of which might even be related to Kali.

"Far from ancient barbarisms that refuse to die, sacrifice and sorcery are making a comeback. Sociologists explain the millions who now throng the two main Kali centers in eastern India, at Kamakhya and Tarapith, as what happens when the rat race that is India's future meets the superstitions of its past."

Apparently Mr. Perry is a hardcore vegetarian who believes eating meat is barbaric. I won't even touch on the how condescending the second sentence is, but I will point out that at the Kamakhya temple in Assam the revered goddess is named Kamakhya, while Tarapith is the home of goddess Tara. Despite these goddesses being independent entities, Alex Perry ignorantly refers to their respective places of worship as "Kali centers." This glaringly false statement leads me to assume that the uninformed author uses "Kali" as the name for every deity he knows nothing about--casting serious doubt on any of his previous references to her in connection with criminal cases. He does not know what the Hell he is talking about.

(The blood never dries at Tarapith," whispers one villager.)

Spooky.

This odious article ends with the words, "but in the dust-bowl villages of India, where superstition reigns and blood has a dark authority, the question is how many other "holy men" have found that ultimate power still rests in the murderous magic of a virgin sacrifice" which brings us full-circle back to the imperialist drivel of the 1800's (universally denounced by academic authorities). Suddenly, the insatiable Goddess of Doom now requires the blood of virgins! The nonexistent connection between the ancient mother goddess Kali and the relatively modern archetype of Satan have been emphatically and idiotically asserted after drawing inspiration from prejudiced sources more than one and a half centuries old.

It seems that I have failed to keep my response short, but I do hope that some folks looking over this will see this article for the mediocre fodder that it is. I felt the need to point out the numerous fallacies contained within it because perpetuating bigotry and misunderstanding does nothing except cause division and strife. This kind of writing originates in a racist, colonialist worldview where people are looked upon as inferior or threatening simply because they are not understood. It perpetuates a destructive and hateful mentality.

I could go on about this forever, but there were a few factual cases of human sacrifice which were brought up in this thread. This is easily explained by one truthful statement found early in the Time magazine article: "Human sacrifice has always been an anomaly in India." It is not the norm by any means. In the past, when it has rarely occurred in connection with goddess worship it was also related to such things as warring kingdoms. I have read that, in some cases, captured soldiers from opposing armies were offered in Assam. This sort of thing you will find in the history of people around the world. In modern times, these actions have--very rarely--been directed by twisted people who have adopted a spiritual persona to seek their own ego gratification (usually related to money) through duping the naive. Another incident mentioned previously involved a man who was clearly mentally disturbed as anyone committing such acts obviously is. Again, you find this kind of deviance in all societies--so mislabeling Hindu goddess devotees as sacrificers of humans is just as illogical as comparing all Atheists to Josef Stalin, Muslims to Osama Bin Laden, Christians to Timothy McVeigh etc. It needlessly condemns a large number of people and is a bigoted mentality.

If anyone has any questions regarding legitimate religious and spiritual practices connected with Kali, I will gladly respond as best I can. Please be aware that there is lot of false information out there and try not to rush to judgement.

William

[jimnyc]

Welcome, William! URLS's are automatically blocked to prevent hit and run type spammers. When a member makes a certain amount of posts and shows that they are planning on being a contributing member here, the software will automatically allow links.

Again, welcome!

[kalibhakta]

Welcome, William! URLS's are automatically blocked to prevent hit and run type spammers. When a member makes a certain amount of posts and shows that they are planning on being a contributing member here, the software will automatically allow links.

Again, welcome!

Yeah, I completely understand why such a feature would be added. It seems like a forum with some interesting discussions and I am sure I'll get to that point in no time. Thanks so much.

[kalibhakta]

I am very happy that I went back and read through this thread as I learned of a Jack Chick Tract that I simply must have.

As far as fact checking go, it's glaringly obvious that a paranoid and hate-filled conspiracy theorist like Jack Chick can not be expected to do anything but attack beliefs he is against.

1. The pamphlet begins by stating that it illustrates a true story from 1982. With all of the outrageous depictions of supernatural activity which follow, it is apparently a product of Chick's warped mind but let's go on.

2. It starts with a man the outrageous scenario of a man (later named as Ramu) sacrificing his first-born son which has immediate results...

3. He not only gains supernatural powers, but transforms into Mola Ram from Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom!

4067

Steven Spielberg himself has repeatedly expressed regrets for making this film. The film has gotten a lot of flack for it's flagrant misrepresentation of Hindus and is chock-full of elements which verge on racism. "It sounds like fortune cookies!" -Short Round. I'll just go ahead and quote wikipedia:

The film's depiction of Hindus caused controversy in India, and brought it to the attention of the country's censors, who placed a temporary ban on it. The inaccurate depiction of Goddess Kali as a representative of the underworld and evil met with much criticism as she is instead the Goddess of Energy (Shakti). The depiction of Indian cuisine was also condemned as it has no relation whatsoever with "baby snakes, eyeball soup, beetles and chilled monkey brains. ..." Yvette Rosser has criticized the film for contributing to racist stereotypes of Indians in western society, writing " seems to have been taken as a valid portrayal of India by many teachers, since a large number of students surveyed complained that teachers referred to the eating of monkey brains."

Despite its many flaws, I still think its a fun movie and as a devotee of Kali who has visited many of her places of worship, I cannot help but think of it as comedy. Unfortunately, it has caused a lot of damage because people are often not very discerning. It is a work of fiction.

Jack Chick's character Ramu, is obviously based on Mola Ram. Even his name is similar. What is up with his outfit--are those lion teeth or something? Mola Ram (played by Amrish Puri) looks perfectly sinister in his priestly garb, but he certainly was not wearing traditional dress.

4. Kali flies through the sky riding on a tiger, enters a home, beheads a man and drains his blood much to the bewilderment of the villagers. Are we still following a [I]true story?

5. Now empowered by his goddess of evil (and skilled in astral projection), Mola Ramu initiates a reign of terror, but all is not lost because...

6. He meets a mysterious stranger who introduces him to Jesus Christ. Mola Ramu converts to Christianity, his demons depart, and all is groovy once more. Amen. I kinda wondered what Ramu is up to these days because the Indian government, unlike Jack Chick's idea of god, is not very forgiving when it comes to capital offenses.

The intent of this tract is to lash out at and literally demonize Hinduism and any other spiritual beliefs other than those of Jack Chick because "Satan controls ALL false gods" as well as the entire earth and every religion according to this warped view.

In stating that "Satan created all the gods of India," Jack Chick really shows his true colors. He not only disagrees with the beliefs of other people, but views them as originating in and being directed by demonic sources. Sounds like a really nice guy.

It is obvious that the objective of this tract is to attack and the story is a fabrication created by the disturbed mind of Jack Chick. It is impossible to fact check something that was completely made up.

[revelarts]

Hello,

My name is William Clark and I am a Kali bhakta from the USA who has lived in India extensively and am heading back in the near future. Most of my academic research and all of my devotion is dedicated specifically to Ma Kali. You can check out my recent essay on Kalighat, the famous Kali temple associated with many of the false, negative western perceptions of Kali which are being regurgitated here. Along with the essay, I have included some very detailed information on the practice of sacrificing goats which takes place there:

[Apparently, I am blocked from posting urls as a new member of this forum, but the website is ]

I found this messageboard while trying to find sources for some of the misinformation presented in the sensationalistic Time magazine article mentioned at the beginning of this thread.

For starters, I found the title "Killing for Kali" pretty crass because it's a reference to a scene in the 1939 film Gunga Din where a white man, painted brown, plays a diabolical Indian Kali priest and Thuggee leader who calls upon his followers to "Kill for the love of killing! Kill for Kali!" This character formed the basis for the villainous Kali priest, Mola Ram, in the film Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom.

The Time magazine article by Alex Perry goes on to provide an incredibly slanted perspective of traditions associated with Kali worship with one outrageous statement after another which are never backed by credible sources:

"Even 200 years ago, when a boy was killed every day at a Kali temple in Calcutta, blood cults were at odds with a benign Hindu spiritualism that celebrates abstinence and vegetarianism."

A statement like this is so loaded, I don't even know where to begin--but I will try to keep this short. The first part, "even 200 years ago, when a boy was killed every day at a Kali temple in Calcutta..." refers specifically to Kalighat where such events never took place. Although I didn't get very into it in my article, the priesthood at Kalighat--for over 250 years--are strict Vaishnavs by lineage and practicing vegetarians. Every historical source I have researched mentions nothing of the sacrifice of boys at Kalighat because it never happened. However, I would bet on the fact that it was mentioned in the Orientalist-fantasy literature penned during the period of British rule by Christian missionaries and colonial authorities, both of whom would have the agenda of suppressing and dominating the colonized native population. In fictional works, Kali was often used as the most convenient, most "exotic" plot device in Victorian novels which were filled with lurid tales of sexual excess, intoxication, and blood sacrifice all in the name of the Thuggee's patron Goddess of Doom. I think you get the idea. The author Alex Perry is referencing completely archaic and invalid sources when not inventing the backstory himself. It is interesting to note that many 19th century accounts of Kali's associated rites describe them much like an inverted Christian mass. In a word, she was demonized early on by colonizers and that false perception has lasted to the present day. For Bengali devotees, she is the Cosmic Mother--the opposite of evil.

The second part of the statement is just naive. I mean, what I get from it is that "blood cults" aren't a part of "Hindu spiritualism," which sounds like a real party because it "celebrates" abstinence and vegetarianism--good times. I understand that the author is trying to condense a tremendous amount of information for the sake of brevity, but that's exactly the problem with such an article--it ends up being a bunch of slanderous hogwash. Hinduism is commonly referred to as the "oldest living religion" in the world as its roots reach into prehistory. Let's return to those bloody sacrifices--if Kali is not evil, then why does she require blood?

She doesn't. I personally know quite a few Kali devotees will not even touch meat, but it is true that she is associated with animal sacrifice and carries a large sword. The fact of the matter is that Bengalis, unlike many Indians, are a traditionally meat-eating culture and goats are tasty. Being spiritually inclined, it makes sense they would develop ways to offer an animal they are going to eat before it is killed for their food. To take an animal's life is a rather intense act, but if you still want to eat it and have a religious disposition it would logically follow that you would attach spiritual significance to the act of slaughtering livestock. What is merely taking place is the phenomenon of religious folks blessing their meat--it's really nothing that "exotic" at all.

On numerous occasions, I have spent a good deal of time in the temple area where this takes place, talking with the men whose job it is to behead the goats. The sacrificial goat, as Kali's gift, is treated quite well by the family who purchases it. Before the immolation, there are some prayers said by a priest and it is sprinkled with water--similar to kosher (Judaism) and halal (Islam) practices. However, unlike the kosher and halal practice, the animal is not bled to death. In order for the ritual to be karmically pure, the animal must suffer as little as possible before it is killed. To this end, its neck is braced in a specially constructed post and the head is then cleanly chopped off with one sharp blow of the khadga--Kali's characteristic sword. The whole thing is over in a few of seconds. Honestly, having witnessed it myself countless times, I feel that such a swift end is ultimately more humane than what happens at factory farms here in the USA where animals undergo prolonged suffering, locked in cramped spaces much of their lives. Here we never see the process of slaughter involved in our consumption of meat, but in a place like West Bengal if you want to eat chicken you go to a market and pick out a live chicken which is then killed on the spot. It's a very different culture. I have visited Kalighat many times during different trips to India for nearly a decade. It always struck me as odd that many foreigners who regularly eat meat would freak out about the animal sacrifices. What they never notice is that following the sacrifice, the goat is taken to a designated area in the temple complex where the animal is butchered, dressed, and packaged for the contributing family to take home. To demonize the practice of goat sacrifice, is tantamount to demonizing the consumption of meat, which, like it or not, is common almost everywhere in the world. Again Alex Perry writes:

"Most Kali temples have settled on large pumpkins to represent a human body; other followers slit the throats of two-meter-tall human effigies made of flour, or of animals such as goats."

I have never seen anything even vaguely resembling these practices at any Kali temple that I have visited; I have been to many and certainly those which are historically and spiritually considered most important. Where the Hell did he get this from? It is not based upon reality.

Alex Perry goes on to claim that "tantrics say" (who? which Tantriks?) Kali takes care of those who take care of her, followed by "so far this year, police have recorded at least one case of ritual killing a month." Do you see how distorted this type of writing is? First he speaks on behalf of Tantriks and mentions Kali's name, then follows this up with a sentence making the shocking claim of one ritual murder per month. What qualifies as a ritual murder? He avoids being a flagrant liar here by not directly saying that the ritual murders were performed on Kali's behalf, but most readers will link the entire paragraph together. It is very poor, misleading writing and the worst kind of journalism. The whole paragraph is dedicated to a number of grisly murders, only one case of which might even be related to Kali.

"Far from ancient barbarisms that refuse to die, sacrifice and sorcery are making a comeback. Sociologists explain the millions who now throng the two main Kali centers in eastern India, at Kamakhya and Tarapith, as what happens when the rat race that is India's future meets the superstitions of its past."

Apparently Mr. Perry is a hardcore vegetarian who believes eating meat is barbaric. I won't even touch on the how condescending the second sentence is, but I will point out that at the Kamakhya temple in Assam the revered goddess is named Kamakhya, while Tarapith is the home of goddess Tara. Despite these goddesses being independent entities, Alex Perry ignorantly refers to their respective places of worship as "Kali centers." This glaringly false statement leads me to assume that the uninformed author uses "Kali" as the name for every deity he knows nothing about--casting serious doubt on any of his previous references to her in connection with criminal cases. He does not know what the Hell he is talking about.

(The blood never dries at Tarapith," whispers one villager.)

Spooky.

This odious article ends with the words, "but in the dust-bowl villages of India, where superstition reigns and blood has a dark authority, the question is how many other "holy men" have found that ultimate power still rests in the murderous magic of a virgin sacrifice" which brings us full-circle back to the imperialist drivel of the 1800's (universally denounced by academic authorities). Suddenly, the insatiable Goddess of Doom now requires the blood of virgins! The nonexistent connection between the ancient mother goddess Kali and the relatively modern archetype of Satan have been emphatically and idiotically asserted after drawing inspiration from prejudiced sources more than one and a half centuries old.

It seems that I have failed to keep my response short, but I do hope that some folks looking over this will see this article for the mediocre fodder that it is. I felt the need to point out the numerous fallacies contained within it because perpetuating bigotry and misunderstanding does nothing except cause division and strife. This kind of writing originates in a racist, colonialist worldview where people are looked upon as inferior or threatening simply because they are not understood. It perpetuates a destructive and hateful mentality.

I could go on about this forever, but there were a few factual cases of human sacrifice which were brought up in this thread. This is easily explained by one truthful statement found early in the Time magazine article: "Human sacrifice has always been an anomaly in India." It is not the norm by any means. In the past, when it has rarely occurred in connection with goddess worship it was also related to such things as warring kingdoms. I have read that, in some cases, captured soldiers from opposing armies were offered in Assam. This sort of thing you will find in the history of people around the world. In modern times, these actions have--very rarely--been directed by twisted people who have adopted a spiritual persona to seek their own ego gratification (usually related to money) through duping the naive. Another incident mentioned previously involved a man who was clearly mentally disturbed as anyone committing such acts obviously is. Again, you find this kind of deviance in all societies--so mislabeling Hindu goddess devotees as sacrificers of humans is just as illogical as comparing all Atheists to Josef Stalin, Muslims to Osama Bin Laden, Christians to Timothy McVeigh etc. It needlessly condemns a large number of people and is a bigoted mentality.

If anyone has any questions regarding legitimate religious and spiritual practices connected with Kali, I will gladly respond as best I can. Please be aware that there is lot of false information out there and try not to rush to judgement.

William

Hi, welcome,

I missed this post
this is interesting.

I won't comment on most your rebut to the Time magazine article. I haven't made time to fact check you or the reporter. But i'd say if much of what you say is correct it won't be the 1st time Time magazine has messed up a story.


Now i mentioned several times to wingSong that the i don't believe that Human Scarifice is a part of most Hindu's worship.
However i have to strongly disagree with your comments here

" there were a few factual cases of human sacrifice which were brought up in this thread. This is easily explained by one truthful statement found early in the Time magazine article: "Human sacrifice has always been an anomaly in India." It is not the norm by any means. In the past, when it has rarely occurred in connection with goddess worship it was also related to such things as warring kingdoms. I have read that, in some cases, captured soldiers from opposing armies were offered in Assam. This sort of thing you will find in the history of people around the world. In modern times, these actions have--very rarely--been directed by twisted people who have adopted a spiritual persona to seek their own ego gratification (usually related to money) through duping the naive. Another incident mentioned previously involved a man who was clearly mentally disturbed as anyone committing such acts obviously is. Again, you find this kind of deviance in all societies ..."


If you read the Times of India Articles you'll find over and over again people who were NOT said to be crazy but those who believed that the human/child sacrifice was spiritually needed for some reason. Some were described as self styled spiritual leaders other were in the Hindu temples performing the murders. some mentioned the god/goddess in question they were doing the deed for.

you don't find this in western socity unless your talking about witchcraft. and you won't find it as prolicflicaly mentioned as it is in the times of Idian I list 4 pages worth of stories along that line.
All due respect but it seems to me that FOR WHATEVER REASON the worship of Hindu gods has lead (leads) more than a few to think that child sacrifice is a real option.


http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-202_162-57350880/police-indian-child-killed-as-human-sacrifice/
NEW DELHI - — Two men have been arrested in central India for allegedly killing a 7-year-old girl and cutting out her liver in a ritual sacrifice to ensure a better harvest, police said Monday.

Lalita Tati disappeared in October and her dismembered remains were found a week later, Rajendra Narayan Das, a senior police officer in the Bijapur district of Chhattisgarh state, told The Associated Press.
Police arrested two men, both poor farmers, last week and they told police they killed the girl to appease their gods and get a better harvest, Das said.
Tati was walking home after watching television at a neighbor's house when she was kidnapped, Das said.
The two men confessed to cutting her open and removing her liver as an offering.

Das said the police had gathered enough evidence, apart from the confessions, to charge the two with murder. They would face life in prison or even the death sentence if convicted.
The men were described as "tribals," a term referring to the region's indigenous people, most of whom remain mired in poverty and illiteracy.
Human sacrifices are rare in India but get prominent attention every few years. A deep belief in traditional healers, or witch doctors, is common in mostly tribal Chhattisgarh.



http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/images/pixel.gif
MANGALORE
FTC to hear child sacrifice case (http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2011-06-07/mangalore/29634449_1_child-sacrifice-chargesheet-murder-case)
June 7, 2011 | STANLEY G PINTO , TNN
MANGALORE: The child sacrifice case will come up before the Fast Track Sessions court here on June 17, exactly six months after the gruesome murder took place. The Mangalore sub-division police had submitted the chargesheet to the court in February this year pertaining to the December 17, 2010, murder of a child by a couple allegedly to appease deity 'Kala Bhairava at Yeyyady in the city. As it was a murder case, the case was sent to the Sessions court from the Judicial Magistrate...
...

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/images/pixel.gif
MANGALORE
FTC to hear child sacrifice case (http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2011-06-07/mangalore/29634449_1_child-sacrifice-chargesheet-murder-case)
June 7, 2011 | STANLEY G PINTO , TNN
MANGALORE: The child sacrifice case will come up before the Fast Track Sessions court here on June 17, exactly six months after the gruesome murder took place. The Mangalore sub-division police had submitted the chargesheet to the court in February this year pertaining to the December 17, 2010, murder of a child by a couple allegedly to appease deity 'Kala Bhairava at Yeyyady in the city. As it was a murder case, the case was sent to the Sessions court from the Judicial Magistrate...


INDIA
2 BSF jawans held in child ‘sacrifice’ case (http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2011-10-09/india/30259935_1_bsf-jawans-child-sacrifice-border-security-force-jawans)
October 9, 2011 | Manosh Das , TNN
SHILLONG: Two Border Security Force (BSF) jawans were arrested in Meghalaya's West Garo Hills for suspected " child sacrifice" in a temple in the 121 battalion camp. The BSF on Saturday instituted a court of inquiry to investigate the case. The jawans belonged to BSF's 121 battalion. A senior BSF officer told TOI, "We handed over head constable Chandra Bhan Das and constable Babu Khan to Meghalaya police. They are suspected to be involved in the case. " The BSF...



Death for tribal in child sacrifice case
RAKESH BHATNAGAR, TNN Dec 13, 2003, 08.58pm IST
http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/images/pixel.gif
NEW DELHI: Strongly discarding superstitious killings for appeasement of God, the Supreme Court has ordered death sentence for a tribal in Jharkhand who 'sacrificed' his neighbour's nine-year child before Goddess Kali for his own prosperity and well being seven years ago.
Killer Shushil Murmu had a son of same age of victim Chirku Besra yet "he diabolically designed the dastardly and revolting sacrifice of a helpless child", said a Bench of Justices Doraiswamy Raju and Arijit Pasayat.

Murmu was already facing the charge of sacrificing another child when the trial court sentenced him to death.
After beheading Besra, he packed the boy's head in a sack, pedalled some distance carrying it and threw it in a pond.
Lawyer Anil Kumar Mittal, who was appointed Murmu's lawyer by the court, sought to persuade the court that the extreme penalty be reduced to life term.
Mittal said that though superstition was not expected and encouraged in modern society, yet an illiterate tribal born and brought up in an atmosphere surcharged with superstition should not be awarded the death sentence.
Jharkhand's counsel A T M Rangaramanujam said nothing short of death should be given the killer.
Agreeing with him, the Bench said, "Superstition cannot and does not provide justification for any killing, much less a planned and deliberate one."
A shocked court further said, "No amount of superstitious colour can wash away the sin and offence of an unprovoked killing, more so in the case of an innocent and defenceless child."
Murmu did not possess basic humanness and completely lacked the "psyche or mind set which can be amenable for any reformation".
Holding that the offence was one of the rarest of rare, the Bench said the offence was a "crime against humanity". It was indicative of "greatest depravity", the judges added.
http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2003-12-13/india/27185147_1_death-sentence-child-superstition



The Problem is said to be 'rare'
but not apperently it happens enough that the pracitce of human scarifice has been specifically banned for years.
AND the Indian gov't floated an ANTI-Suprsition bill just last year.


Anti-superstition Bill to be ready in this session: Ajit
Sanjeev Shivadekar, TNN Apr 8, 2011, 07.00am IST
http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/images/pixel.gif
MUMBAI: The government has promised to introduce the long-pending anti-superstition law (The Maharashtra Eradication of Blind Faith Bill) in the current state legislature session.
"The DF government will discuss the issue in Thursday's cabinet meeting. The anti-superstition Bill will be introduced before the end of the ongoing budget session. If the law is not approved, the government will introduce an ordinance to prevent black magic," said deputy chief minister Ajit Pawar in the assembly on Thursday. The aim of the law is to stop the practice of black magic and "human sacrifices made by people out of blind faith", Pawar added. Warkaris and those performing religious rites (puja) would not be targeted by the Bill, he said.

The Bill came up for discussion when BJP's Chainsukh Sancheti raised the issue of child sacrifice. The MLA cited the incidents of two children in Nalasopara and Borivli being sacrificed. However, minister of state for home Satej Patil said, "This is not a case of child sacrifice, but that of blind faith." Objecting to it, Opposition leader Eknath Khadse said, "Child sacrifices are the outcome of blind faith." He added that stern action should be taken against the culprits.

While MNS MLA Pravin Darekar demanded a probe into sacrifices conducted at religious places, "Government should conduct a thorough probe in this matter," he added.
NCP MLA Nawab Malik said, "Ads in papers and TVs should be stopped."When Patil said the government could take action only following a specific complaint, speaker of the legislative assembly Dilip Walse Patil directed the minister to take suo motu action. "Instead of waiting for complaints, the home department should appoint dedicated staff to trace such ads in newspapers," he said.
Finally concluding the discussion Pawar assured the house of introducing the long pending bill in the session.

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2011-04-08/mumbai/29396060_1_anti-superstition-child-sacrifice-black-magic


"Child sacrifices are the outcome of blind faith." the lawmakers claim.
well no,
It's the outcome of faith in bad religion or ideas. And or misunderurstood religion or ideas.

All religions are NOT basically the same.