School boundaries - behaviour engineering?

[darin]

My son presented me with a form last night. The form has two columns and many rows; one column is labelled "I spent 30 minutes in a physical activity" the other is "I watched TV for less than 2 hours today"

My son asked me to sign off on his row from last night. Not thinking much, I scribbled away. Talking more with him, however, raised a flag with me.

My son will be graded on this form - if he doesn't have my signature 'proving' he abides by this schedule, his grade will be lower. Here's the note I sent his teacher - what're your thoughts?


Ms. xxxxx -

Yesterday E. presented a form for my signature; I think he said it
was about "Healthy Hearts" or similar name. E. said he'll be
graded on its completeness. The form called for a measure of outside
play and disciplines on TV watching.

Is he correct; he'll get a grade on this sheet? If this project IS
graded I need you to help me find an alternative project for my son.
Frankly, his after-school activities, be that playing outside, watching TV, or whatever it is his mother and
I have for him to do. is not the schools business. E. knows I am writing to you - he
understands his after-school behavior and activities are his own; his Parents are
responsible to ensure he spends enough time getting proper exercise and mental stimulation.
He's reluctant to endorse me contacting you and said his biggest fear is
you bringing this up - about him personally, in front of the class.
Therefore I ask you to not bring this up to or about him in public -
but lets work this out between us. If you decide to change the policy
of the grade for this worksheet, that can be announced to the kids
however you feel appropriate, while protecting E.'s anonymity in
this issue.

Thanks much for clarification!

Look - promoting general health of kids is a good thing. If the kids have voluntary programs like this, no big deal - but requiring him to do this, and docking his grade because he didn't follow the guidelines? That's pure horse crap, IMO.

[fj1200]

Is he graded based on him complying with the columns or just on checking what he did? If the latter then I don't see a big deal, if it's requiring behavior then I understand your issue.

[darin]

Is he graded based on him complying with the columns or just on checking what he did? If the latter then I don't see a big deal, if it's requiring behavior then I understand your issue.

I suppose that's what I want clarified - My son said he needs to complete x-percent of the columns; if he doesn't do what's required he'll get a lower grade. If he volunteered to complete this regimen, and I'm verifying his completion - yeah, no harm/foul. But if the School says Yea-Verily and now is attempting to control his behaviour/activities unrelated to his education, I'm worried.

Often, in the translation from Teacher to 10-year-old, important facts get lost.

[SassyLady]

I would be incensed if it is the school grading him on complying with the schedule they laid out. Even grading him on the completion of the form is an invasion of privacy in my opinion. School can use to do survey and then the next thing is gov in your home dictating how your children spend their time. Great way to indoctrinate kids against their parents...get the kids so scared that they conform to school policy rather than family norms.

[Wind Song]

Only the right wing could find something wrong with a suggestion this benign. You folks take the cake.

[DragonStryk72]

My son presented me with a form last night. The form has two columns and many rows; one column is labelled "I spent 30 minutes in a physical activity" the other is "I watched TV for less than 2 hours today"

My son asked me to sign off on his row from last night. Not thinking much, I scribbled away. Talking more with him, however, raised a flag with me.

My son will be graded on this form - if he doesn't have my signature 'proving' he abides by this schedule, his grade will be lower. Here's the note I sent his teacher - what're your thoughts?



Look - promoting general health of kids is a good thing. If the kids have voluntary programs like this, no big deal - but requiring him to do this, and docking his grade because he didn't follow the guidelines? That's pure horse crap, IMO.

And bullshit like this is why my brother Michael, and his wife Christina, are doing something called un-schooling their kids. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unschooling

Actually, I had a lot of fun with Scarlet the last time she was up here. She wanted to know exactly how the Spirograph I got her works, like the processes behind it. So I actually and taught her about cogs and gears while showing her the spirograph, and even my mom's egg-beater function. There is never this feeling like I had when I'd get off school, like I was just "done" with the learning thing.

[darin]

Only the right wing could find something wrong with a suggestion this benign. You folks take the cake.

It's not a suggestion, fool, it's an ASSIGNMENT.

[Wind Song]

It's not a suggestion, fool, it's an ASSIGNMENT.

So what? We used to get school assignments, like no TV for a week and write a paper about the experience.

[SassyLady]

Actually, I had a lot of fun with Scarlet the last time she was up here. She wanted to know exactly how the Spirograph I got her works, like the processes behind it. So I actually and taught her about cogs and gears while showing her the spirograph, and even my mom's egg-beater function. There is never this feeling like I had when I'd get off school, like I was just "done" with the learning thing.

My grandchildren have never been in a public school. Grandson was home schooled for one year waiting to get into The Academy of Math and Science.. Both are in schools that focus on learning academics and they leave cultyral and social teching up to the parents.

[Thunderknuckles]

If he's required to do any of that for a grade, then yeah, you have a real issue there.
Acknowledging it for a grade is fine.

[darin]

So what? We used to get school assignments, like no TV for a week and write a paper about the experience.

Now you're dismissing the point I proved you wrong with "So what?" Then you're making the fallacy of "We used to have to do that" (therefore it cannot be bad).

Worst. Debater. Ever. I bet Psychoblues would kick your arse in a debate.

[DragonStryk72]

My grandchildren have never been in a public school. Grandson was home schooled for one year waiting to get into The Academy of Math and Science.. Both are in schools that focus on learning academics and they leave cultyral and social teching up to the parents.

I'm actually leaning more toward home schooling my kids as it goes. Schools are rapidly becoming nuts on multiple levels, and I get it, it isn't the fault of the admins of the schools (ie Conhog), but overreactive parents who have no real leadership to look to to calm them that are pushing these sorts of idiocies.

If this had simply been attached to an incentive program, or some other such thing that was voluntary, even if there were perks for the top performers, that would be fine. I have no issue with getting our kids to get off the 360 and outside for some play/exercise. I have huge issues with it being mandatory. Isn't this why we started having gym class in schools, to make sure that they were getting at least some exercise each day?

[Kathianne]

I'm actually leaning more toward home schooling my kids as it goes. Schools are rapidly becoming nuts on multiple levels, and I get it, it isn't the fault of the admins of the schools (ie Conhog), but overreactive parents who have no real leadership to look to to calm them that are pushing these sorts of idiocies.

If this had simply been attached to an incentive program, or some other such thing that was voluntary, even if there were perks for the top performers, that would be fine. I have no issue with getting our kids to get off the 360 and outside for some play/exercise. I have huge issues with it being mandatory. Isn't this why we started having gym class in schools, to make sure that they were getting at least some exercise each day?

Interestingly enough, I think that most of the real nuttiness comes from some teachers and rewards from administrators. In some schools there are a core of teachers much like Sky. Doesn't matter the issue, they have the answer and anyone that disagrees is labeled a fascist or terrorist.

Also note though there are many, maybe a majority more in line with Gabby or myself. It's always surprised me how 'centered' Gabby is when it comes to what kids really need. I think I'd enjoy working with her. Now I won't try and speak for Gabby, but the 'centered' teachers I know tend to pay attention to their students and the activities they sponsor or coach. They aren't leading revolutions within the school. The kids like/adore them.

[Abbey Marie]

My son presented me with a form last night. The form has two columns and many rows; one column is labelled "I spent 30 minutes in a physical activity" the other is "I watched TV for less than 2 hours today"

My son asked me to sign off on his row from last night. Not thinking much, I scribbled away. Talking more with him, however, raised a flag with me.

My son will be graded on this form - if he doesn't have my signature 'proving' he abides by this schedule, his grade will be lower. Here's the note I sent his teacher - what're your thoughts?

Look - promoting general health of kids is a good thing. If the kids have voluntary programs like this, no big deal - but requiring him to do this, and docking his grade because he didn't follow the guidelines? That's pure horse crap, IMO.

My thoughts:
1. Your note is very well written.
2. I'm glad you addressed possible teacher retribution towards your son. I think most of us let things slide that we shouldn't because of this fear. Teachers can punish our kids with bad grades, humiliation, and just making our kids dread going to school because they know a teacher doesn't like them.
3. It's time we all take a stand against the schools putting their agenda-driven noses where they don't belong.

[DragonStryk72]

Interestingly enough, I think that most of the real nuttiness comes from some teachers and rewards from administrators. In some schools there are a core of teachers much like Sky. Doesn't matter the issue, they have the answer and anyone that disagrees is labeled a fascist or terrorist.

Also note though there are many, maybe a majority more in line with Gabby or myself. It's always surprised me how 'centered' Gabby is when it comes to what kids really need. I think I'd enjoy working with her. Now I won't try and speak for Gabby, but the 'centered' teachers I know tend to pay attention to their students and the activities they sponsor or coach. They aren't leading revolutions within the school. The kids like/adore them.

The problem is, though, that the centered teachers tend to get run roughshod over by the extremists. We need leadership in schools that actually recognizes where the line is, and stops the overstep. I agree, though, the centered ones are not focused on revolution, and instead, on making sure their students are getting the education they need.

[Kathianne]

The problem is, though, that the centered teachers tend to get run roughshod over by the extremists. We need leadership in schools that actually recognizes where the line is, and stops the overstep. I agree, though, the centered ones are not focused on revolution, and instead, on making sure their students are getting the education they need.

One can only do what they can do. Me? I want my emphasis on the kids, not me.

[Trinity]

And bullshit like this is why my brother Michael, and his wife Christina, are doing something called un-schooling their kids. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unschooling

Actually, I had a lot of fun with Scarlet the last time she was up here. She wanted to know exactly how the Spirograph I got her works, like the processes behind it. So I actually and taught her about cogs and gears while showing her the spirograph, and even my mom's egg-beater function. There is never this feeling like I had when I'd get off school, like I was just "done" with the learning thing.


My youngest is home schooled. I have done some serious checking into the un-schooling only because the only difference in home schooling and going to school is they do all their school work at home, it is the same curriculum as if they attended school. Un-schooling is based around the child and letting them learn about what interests them not forcing them to do something because they have to do it.

For instance in Jesse's case he is 13. I allowed him to step away from the homeschooling and the school work and said your on your own, let's see what you learn in 2 months of no traditional class work. He learned his favorite channels are History Channel and Animal Planet. He tells me things about history and science that I didn't even know.

I should also mention that he taught himself how to code plug ins for minecraft...he and another child the same age from California that is also home schooled have been skyping and working on these plug ins and getting a server together to host their own minecraft game. I'm pretty certain they don't teach coding in the 7th grade, that's typically college courses. ;)

[darin]

Here's my note to the Principal, as the teacher went with "Well, we've ALWAYS done it this way!"


Mr. S - I read the information paper on the project and object completely to the premise. While assignments related to E's studies - traditional homework - are part of popular education method, and make up components of 'good study habits' engineering other-than-academic activities and grading kids on those falls outside the scope of what I believe is the purpose of school. This assignment, had it been presented as a 'challenge' to kids, I could see it as acceptable. However, as a "if you fail to obey these instructions to a certain measure, you will get a bad grade" type assignment...a requirement to possibly alter their family or social activities turns this into a type of social/behavior engineering. Can we find an alternative equal-credit assignment for E?

Thanks for your time and help with this.

If you prefer to call, my work number is xxxxx

Darin

[Howard Roark]

I don't see a problem with instilling the concept of physical activity in a group of 10 year olds. In fact, more kids would rather play virtual baseball, than go outside and find a few friends to start a game.

I don't believe the 'grade' will be applied to his/her academic evaluation, rather, it's just a way to keep score in this 'contest'.

At that age, sometimes it helps to make a game out of something that ought to be done anyway.

Whereas your household may indeed offer the proper balance of physical/mental stimulation, there are many households that do not. In fact, there are quite a few households that don't have a 'typical' male/female balance.

I'm interested to see how this turns out.

[darin]

I don't see a problem with instilling the concept of physical activity in a group of 10 year olds. In fact, more kids would rather play virtual baseball, than go outside and find a few friends to start a game.

Parents' responsibility - not school.



I don't believe the 'grade' will be applied to his/her academic evaluation, rather, it's just a way to keep score in this 'contest'.

The grade absolutely is applied to the course-year. That's my problem with it.


At that age, sometimes it helps to make a game out of something that ought to be done anyway.

...something the parents need to do; not "the village".


Whereas your household may indeed offer the proper balance of physical/mental stimulation, there are many households that do not. In fact, there are quite a few households that don't have a 'typical' male/female balance.

That's the luck-of-the-draw for the kid, frankly. I'm steadfast against the idea "it takes a village" to raise a child. Kids whose parents didn't love them enough to maintain a healthy home-life - that's said, but its not the responsibility of the SCHOOL to strike that balance.



I'm interested to see how this turns out.

Will keep folk updated. :)

[jimnyc]

Read this thread and happened upon a new member when I got to the end. Welcome, Howard! :)

And Darin, Bravo to you!! :clap:

[Nukeman]

I don't see a problem with instilling the concept of physical activity in a group of 10 year olds. In fact, more kids would rather play virtual baseball, than go outside and find a few friends to start a game.

I don't believe the 'grade' will be applied to his/her academic evaluation, rather, it's just a way to keep score in this 'contest'.

At that age, sometimes it helps to make a game out of something that ought to be done anyway.

Whereas your household may indeed offer the proper balance of physical/mental stimulation, there are many households that do not. In fact, there are quite a few households that don't have a 'typical' male/female balance.

I'm interested to see how this turns out.You're missing the point of the entire conversation. WHY is it the schools responsiblity to enforce a specific behaviour OUTSIDE OF SCHOOL?

What happended to the parents of the children determining what is best for their child? Yes this is a "assignment" to get the kids moving, but once again IT IS NOT THE SCHOOLS job to do so!!!! The school is NOT the parent and needs to quit thinking they are.

[Howard Roark]

Parents' responsibility - not school.
Yes. Although, your family may not be the same as other students' family structure. That's the challenge in public school...finding an average curriculum that works for all levels of learning. Some are slower/faster than others.

Likewise, with these social issues.




The grade absolutely is applied to the course-year. That's my problem with it.

If the teacher told you that this program will be factored in to the gpa, then that's entering an area that I'm not so comfy with. Although, most parents can bolster the grade by falsifying the documents from week to week.

Physical fitness...aka 'gym class' was always a graded course, that was mandatory. In this day of cutting budgets, many schools want to eliminate gym. Does this school have a physical fitness class?



...something the parents need to do; not "the village". Generally speaking, I agree. This however, seems benign. It is absolutely the right of the parent to allow their children to become obese, diabetes riddled hogs by age 15. Sometimes I wonder if this type of program is aimed at educating the parents, more than the student?




That's the luck-of-the-draw for the kid, frankly. I'm steadfast against the idea "it takes a village" to raise a child. Kids whose parents didn't love them enough to maintain a healthy home-life - that's said, but its not the responsibility of the SCHOOL to strike that balance.
This issue goes far deeper than any perceived level of 'love' for children. Within that village, lives a plethora of varied realities.



Will keep folk updated. :)

It will be interesting to follow

[darin]

Yes. Although, your family may not be the same as other students' family structure. That's the challenge in public school...finding an average curriculum that works for all levels of learning. Some are slower/faster than others.

Likewise, with these social issues.

I don't particularly care bout other students' family structure in so much as I have my kids to worry-about. School takes upon itself that mission - but its a mission the school is NOT equipped to handle; School officials have no intimate stock in the development of families and children; but rather an economic model to remain even slightly viable alternative to private education. The learning rates of kids, again, is not my concern. The huge problem with trying to teach to the average is this: The average almost NEVER happens. Within the average lay such a minute quantity of people, it avoids the other - say, 98% of students drastically OFF the average.


If the teacher told you that this program will be factored in to the gpa, then that's entering an area that I'm not so comfy with. Although, most parents can bolster the grade by falsifying the documents from week to week.

That's my uncomfort, too - hence asking for an alternative assignment - OR I'll be okay with my son failing that particular assignment; after all, to me ultimate grades are not a measure of success.




Physical fitness...aka 'gym class' was always a graded course, that was mandatory. In this day of cutting budgets, many schools want to eliminate gym. Does this school have a physical fitness class?

Yes, the school has those classes.



Generally speaking, I agree. This however, seems benign. It is absolutely the right of the parent to allow their children to become obese, diabetes riddled hogs by age 15. Sometimes I wonder if this type of program is aimed at educating the parents, more than the student?


Again - maybe educating parents is a good thing - but I'm not a student.




This issue goes far deeper than any perceived level of 'love' for children. Within that village, lives a plethora of varied realities.


Well..ultimately it goes towards the selfishness of the parents. Ultimately, folks divorce for selfish reasons; apart from physical or emotional abuse, or illegal/unethical behaviour, etc., of course.

[Nukeman]

Darin, I agree with you on this 100%. It is NOT the schools job to do anything other than teach reading, writing, and math (yes I know there are other educational subjects so don't react to the over simplification). All these social issues have not been put forth by parents but by the school systems themselves.

I understand that not every parent takes thier childrens wellfare and eduaction to heart but if the schools continue to offer to take over the parents role than there will always be parents willing to let them, and take full advantage of not having to parent.

[fj1200]

Yes. Although, your family may not be the same as other students' family structure. That's the challenge in public school...finding an average curriculum that works for all levels of learning. Some are slower/faster than others.

Likewise, with these social issues.

Which is why the public school monopoly should be broken. Sherman Act their @ss. :poke:

[revelarts]

:clap:DMP



It's just crazy that the school would mandate kids behavior 24-7 or else.

Many here are saying it's benign, that it's not a bad thing,
well benign slavery is great if we're going to be slaves to the schools/gov't's policies I guess.

But why should we be slaves to them when they are suppose to be working for us, a free people. Were not a commune ... yet

that's all i'll say about that.

[Noir]

Firstly, the idea of it being graded is beyond daft =/

Secondly, the 'TV time' criteria shows a complete lack of context, 'pass' a child who's spent two hours watching cartoons, and fail another who's spent three hours watching current affairs, history, science programs etc and you've got quite a broken system.

[Howard Roark]

I don't particularly care bout other students' family structure in so much as I have my kids to worry-about.

I can appreciate that. Other families aren't your problem. That doesn't negate the fact that they exist.



School takes upon itself that mission - but its a mission the school is NOT equipped to handle
There are parameters. School is your child's first experience in a societal setting. Your home is sheltered from all that you don't like about society. School affords children a lot more than the 3 Rs. The 'mission' of the school is to deliver a setting that's safe, and conducive to learning. Sometimes that means finding ways to deal with the varied issues that arise from varied home conditions.



School officials have no intimate stock in the development of families and children; but rather an economic model to remain even slightly viable alternative to private education.

Actually, they do take stock. They have a lot to do with the future of our society. They can't do it alone, though. There is no such thing as a quality student that doesn't have a strong support system in the home. Kids don't naturally 'want' to study, or do homework. Facebook is much more appealing.

Those who are bothered by the social setting a public school affords, would do well to shelter their kids in private schools. Unfortunately, you still have to pay for the public school system.



The learning rates of kids, again, is not my concern. The huge problem with trying to teach to the average is this: The average almost NEVER happens. Within the average lay such a minute quantity of people, it avoids the other - say, 98% of students drastically OFF the average. Yes...that's the dilemma that schools face. The learning rate of your kid is your concern. The learning rate of all students is the school's concern.
As previously mentioned...I don't believe any school can succeed, without a strong support system from the parents. It's simply not possible to cater to every level of ability, unless you spend enough money to separate students by said ability.



That's my uncomfort, too - hence asking for an alternative assignment - OR I'll be okay with my son failing that particular assignment; after all, to me ultimate grades are not a measure of success.Yea...there's got to be more to this. I'm not sure what the goal is here.


Yes, the school has those classes. And you aren't bothered by mandatory physical curriculum, for a grade?





Again - maybe educating parents is a good thing - but I'm not a student. Not you, but quite a few other parents need to be taught.



Well..ultimately it goes towards the selfishness of the parents. Ultimately, folks divorce for selfish reasons; apart from physical or emotional abuse, or illegal/unethical behaviour, etc., of course.We can only speak for our own realities. We should neither judge, nor mock others unless we've walked in their shoes.

Shit happens. Quite often, there are tragedies involved.

[Dilloduck]

Is your son being graded on completing and returning the forms as attested to by you or is he being graded for actually changing his behavior? Teaching a child to be aware of his/her habits doesn't seem harmful to me.

[darin]

I can appreciate that. Other families aren't your problem. That doesn't negate the fact that they exist.


Not negating; reducing the scope of society's responsibility to fix individuals



There are parameters. School is your child's first experience in a societal setting.

Speculation.



Your home is sheltered from all that you don't like about society.

Speculation.


School affords children a lot more than the 3 Rs. The 'mission' of the school is to deliver a setting that's safe, and conducive to learning. Sometimes that means finding ways to deal with the varied issues that arise from varied home conditions.

And none of that has two shits-worth to deal with what my kid does when I remove him from the school (at the end of the day). In fact, school itself is MY choice for my kid.



Actually, they do take stock. They have a lot to do with the future of our society. They can't do it alone, though. There is no such thing as a quality student that doesn't have a strong support system in the home. Kids don't naturally 'want' to study, or do homework. Facebook is much more appealing.

Its not society's responsibility to ensure its future. Society isn't made up of a bunch of people raised by society. Want to ensure society's future? Each individual family must take responsibility for their success. And I take exception to your idea of what kids want to do naturally. My kids naturally want to eat vegetables. My kids, by their nature, control their own behavior with discipline. My kids, it's in their nature to do so - seek truth, obedience, and yes - to accomplish all their homework and studying. Because, see, its in my kids' nature to strive for success.

How can that be? My kids are that way because I love them more than I care about their particular 'happiness' at any one point. Because I instructed my kids to eat right, do the right thing, and strive for success. From a very young age I held my kids responsible for their behavior. We never 'kid-proofed' our house - we 'house-proofed' our kids.



Those who are bothered by the social setting a public school affords, would do well to shelter their kids in private schools. Unfortunately, you still have to pay for the public school system.

Absolutely true. Except you have that sorta backwards. Private schools OPEN minds. Public schools teach-for-the-test-so-they-dont-lose-funding. Waiting For Superman. Good movie. Check it out.



Yes...that's the dilemma that schools face. The learning rate of your kid is your concern. The learning rate of all students is the school's concern.

You mentioned 'average'. Average is not all. GOOD schools teach to the whole class. Good teachers teach the entire class. Different topic.


As previously mentioned...I don't believe any school can succeed, without a strong support system from the parents. It's simply not possible to cater to every level of ability, unless you spend enough money to separate students by said ability.


Probably true.



And you aren't bothered by mandatory physical curriculum, for a grade?


Of course not. That's 'at school'. That is a grade for 'doing'. This project grades 'not doing'.



Not you, but quite a few other parents need to be taught.

Not my, nor the schools responsibility. If parents NEED to be taught, let the needy parents choose to know. It's on them. If their kid slips through the crack...there are winners and losers in life.



We can only speak for our own realities. We should neither judge, nor mock others unless we've walked in their shoes.



Judge no. Acknowledge or identify or hold-accountable? Sure. :)


I spoke with the principle. He thanked me for bringing up this point and said he will re-look the requirement. He thanked me for being reasonable and open-minded with him as he and I reached a compromise (I HATE compromise, btw): My son will account for his time, on his own, without my signature/verification. If my son chooses to continue the regimen, my son is honest enough to complete the check-blocks. I gave my son the choice to participate or not. I said "Son, you dont have to do this assignment. No harm, no foul. Your grade, if you dont do it, might be a few points lower over the course of the year, but wont change anything in a REAL way. You won't get punished." My son said "Well, I want to ensure I get the best grade I can, so I'll do it Dad."

His choice. I'll support him.

[Wind Song]

Let's get clear. This homework assignment is no threat to anyone's family.

[darin]

Let's get clear. This homework assignment is no threat to anyone's family.

Let's get clear, your opinions are generally stupid. Please stop trying to change the subject.

[Wind Song]

Let's get clear, your opinions are generally stupid. Please stop trying to change the subject.

How the hell is this changing the subject? You're the one whining in the OP about this homework assignment and what you percieve is your threat to parental authority.

Stop calling my opinions stupid. When you do so, you are telling me that my opinions aren't welcome on this forum.

You're deliberately trying to provoke a fight with me. I'm not playing.

[darin]

How the hell is this changing the subject? You're the one whining in the OP about this homework assignment and what you percieve is your threat to parental authority.


Because you brought up a 'point' NOBODY was arguing. Nobody said the assignment was "a threat to the family". Btw, you spelled perceive wrong.



Stop calling my opinions stupid. When you do so, you are telling me that my opinions aren't welcome on this forum.

You're deliberately trying to provoke a fight with me. I'm not playing.

Your opinions are stupid because they are based without the concepts of reason or responsibility. You cannot logically back them; you attempt to change the subject each time you are confronted with your idiocy or foolishness.

I am deliberately trying to get you to participate with stuff THAT MAKES SENSE - not your wild fantasies.

I know you are in love with me, D. That happens. I'm used to it.

[jimnyc]

Let's get clear. This homework assignment is no threat to anyone's family.

Since when would it need to be a threat before a PARENT can say what they think is best for their children when not in school?

[Wind Song]

Because you brought up a 'point' NOBODY was arguing. Nobody said the assignment was "a threat to the family". Btw, you spelled perceive wrong.



Your opinions are stupid because they are based without the concepts of reason or responsibility. You cannot logically back them; you attempt to change the subject each time you are confronted with your idiocy or foolishness.

I am deliberately trying to get you to participate with stuff THAT MAKES SENSE - not your wild fantasies.

I know you are in love with me, D. That happens. I'm used to it.


I'm done talking to you. Go insult somebody else, you know, someone who agrees with your every word. You don't want to talk to anyone who disagrees with your pompous self.

[Howard Roark]

Not negating; reducing the scope of society's responsibility to fix individuals It isn't about 'fixing'. You claimed other families aren't your problem. Actually, insofar as we're all connected, they are your problem. However, you have the ability to shield yourself from society. It doesn't mean that society doesn't exist.



Speculation. Not speculation. Generalization. Especially given your propensity to shield your children from those you feel are of lesser quality due to social status. When your child enters the school building, he/she will come in contact with kids from all social strata. That's a microcosm of your child's future.


Speculation.Not speculation. Observation based on your posts in this thread. We all shelter our kids the best we can, from that which we don't feel is in their best interests.


And none of that has two shits-worth to deal with what my kid does when I remove him from the school (at the end of the day). In fact, school itself is MY choice for my kid.For the purpose of THIS discussion, that is correct. If you choose to fight the school on a benevolent program, based on your rights to privacy, then you ought to do that without your child being punished.



Its not society's responsibility to ensure its future. Society isn't made up of a bunch of people raised by society.

Society is made up of a bunch of people who interact. How kids are raised will differ based on each individual family's societal stature. When they interact in school, the theory is that they all benefit from seeing how 'the other half lives'.


Want to ensure society's future? Each individual family must take responsibility for their success.

Many share that same dream. How's that working out?

And I take exception to your idea of what kids want to do naturally. My kids naturally want to eat vegetables. My kids, by their nature, control their own behavior with discipline. My kids, it's in their nature to do so - seek truth, obedience, and yes - to accomplish all their homework and studying. Because, see, its in my kids' nature to strive for success.You contradict this paragraph in your next comments. 'Naturally, typically refers to innate behavior.


How can that be? My kids are that way because I love them more than I care about their particular 'happiness' at any one point. Because I instructed my kids to eat right, do the right thing, and strive for success. From a very young age I held my kids responsible for their behavior. We never 'kid-proofed' our house - we 'house-proofed' our kids. You are a model parent. All households don't enjoy the same situations.


Absolutely true. Except you have that sorta backwards. Private schools OPEN minds. Public schools teach-for-the-test-so-they-dont-lose-funding. Many private schools are Catholic schools. As such, that contradicts your claim about open minds. I agree about the tests, and fed funding. We have serious problems in this country, when it comes to funding education. That said, many private schools are closing for the same reason.


You mentioned 'average'. Average is not all. GOOD schools teach to the whole class. Good teachers teach the entire class. Different topic.I'll leave this for a different thread, even though I disagree with the generalization.





Of course not. That's 'at school'. That is a grade for 'doing'. This project grades 'not doing'.So the issue isn't the actual focus of the project, rather, the fact that it invades your privacy. I suppose that's a valid complaint.




My son said "Well, I want to ensure I get the best grade I can, so I'll do itDad."Smart kid. Do you think this project will harm him in any way?

[darin]

It isn't about 'fixing'. You claimed other families aren't your problem. Actually, insofar as we're all connected, they are your problem. However, you have the ability to shield yourself from society. It doesn't mean that society doesn't exist.


And appeasing them, or even pandering to them won't FIX them, either. I don't shield myself or my family from anything but those things most-damaging.


Not speculation. Generalization. Especially given your propensity to shield your children from those you feel are of lesser quality due to social status. When your child enters the school building, he/she will come in contact with kids from all social strata. That's a microcosm of your child's future.

You used "your" or "You" - that's speculative; directed at me. Then you speculate I shield my kids from those I feel of lesser quality. That's a wild leap at best. And honestly, you have no grounds for such an assumption.


Not speculation. Observation based on your posts in this thread. We all shelter our kids the best we can, from that which we don't feel is in their best interests.

If not speculation, it's a conclusion you've reached apart from what I consider supportive evidence.


For the purpose of THIS discussion, that is correct. If you choose to fight the school on a benevolent program, based on your rights to privacy, then you ought to do that without your child being punished.


You assign benevolence where I assign 'damaging'. Schools promoting things like this assignment hint toward progressive societal agendas. And if I thought it was the case, I'd be honored for my kid being 'punished' for doing the right thing.


Society is made up of a bunch of people who interact. How kids are raised will differ based on each individual family's societal stature. When they interact in school, the theory is that they all benefit from seeing how 'the other half lives'.


whose theory? not mine, really. Not every 'education' is beneficial.


Many share that same dream. How's that working out?

Fine?


You contradict this paragraph in your next comments. 'Naturally, typically refers to innate behavior.

My point in doing so is this: Kids are who we make them to be. You use 'innate' - and I say there IS no innate, besides selfishness. Because my kids are taught to do so, they've taken a NEW nature - a new inner desire for GOOD.


You are a model parent. All households don't enjoy the same situations.

Everyone is a model parent. Kids are raised to the model of their parents. Thankfully, God grabbed my mind and has given me a measure of foresight and wisdom - those things I impart upon my kids because I LOVE them, and it's my Duty as their dad.



Many private schools are Catholic schools. As such, that contradicts your claim about open minds. I agree about the tests, and fed funding. We have serious problems in this country, when it comes to funding education. That said, many private schools are closing for the same reason.

An open-minded person concedes maybe Catholic schools have it right? Maybe its open-minded to acknowledge their methods may be best? We don't have a funding problem - we have a teacher problem. We have a union problem. We have a lack of strategic vision and wisdom problem. We have a family-unit-problem. We spend more $ per child than any time in national history and our kids are learning LESS and LESS in public schools. There's PLENTY of funding. We have a systematic failure of parents to give a shit and take action.


I'll leave this for a different thread, even though I disagree with the generalization.


Fair enough.


So the issue isn't the actual focus of the project, rather, the fact that it invades your privacy. I suppose that's a valid complaint.

I think I'm upset about it for both of those reasons. Namely, ANY type of Social engineering or value-judgements. Schools shouldn't say 'Smoking is bad' - that's a value judgment. Schools should say "This is the result, based on data, of smoking - the badness or goodness is up to YOU" That sorta thing. Make sense?


Smart kid. Do you think this project will harm him in any way?

Meh - I don't. He'll be fine - but I watch very closely for social indoctrination and moral-education from public schools.

ya know, i REALLY want to thank you for such a reasonable, calm, educated and thought-provoking 'disagreement' or 'discussion' with me. very nice to have you on the board.

:beers:

[darin]

I'm done talking to you. Go insult somebody else, you know, someone who agrees with your every word. You don't want to talk to anyone who disagrees with your pompous self.

Howard disagrees with me. I LIKE talking to him. :) I'm sorry you can't articulate your opinion using reason, or very rarely, rational thought. Your problem. Not mine.

[ConHog]

Howard disagrees with me. I LIKE talking to him. :) I'm sorry you can't articulate your opinion using reason, or very rarely, rational thought. Your problem. Not mine.

good gawd darin. can't you just let some of her things go to please.


As for your OP. I agree with FJ , IF the assignment was simply to fill out the sheet and grades were based off that criteria, no problem, but if instead grades are based on how much of each activity was done, well................

On the whole I don't like this sort of assignment anyway. Part of the reason for school is to begin to teach children how to function in real life. In real life we have jobs; we do those jobs from X o clock to X o clock so many days a week, what we do outside of those times is our own BUt we must be able to accomplish what we have been assigned within those hours; so to children should be taught to schedule and complete assignment within alloted times.

I dislike homework for that very reason.

[Thunderknuckles]

Let's get clear. This homework assignment is no threat to anyone's family.
Wind Song, I don't think you understand the ramifications here. This is about schools grading a child's performance based on their private activities at home. This is WAY beyond the scope of what schools should be doing.

Again, to be clear, it is fine if the school is advocating healthy behavior at home. It is NOT ok for a school to grade a child based on their behavior at home.

[DragonStryk72]

My youngest is home schooled. I have done some serious checking into the un-schooling only because the only difference in home schooling and going to school is they do all their school work at home, it is the same curriculum as if they attended school. Un-schooling is based around the child and letting them learn about what interests them not forcing them to do something because they have to do it.

For instance in Jesse's case he is 13. I allowed him to step away from the homeschooling and the school work and said your on your own, let's see what you learn in 2 months of no traditional class work. He learned his favorite channels are History Channel and Animal Planet. He tells me things about history and science that I didn't even know.

I should also mention that he taught himself how to code plug ins for minecraft...he and another child the same age from California that is also home schooled have been skyping and working on these plug ins and getting a server together to host their own minecraft game. I'm pretty certain they don't teach coding in the 7th grade, that's typically college courses. ;)

In un-schooling, you're essentially using the kid's activities, interests, and such to steer the lessons to them, like say, if you wanted to teach your kid about the American Revolution, you might go wander around Colonial Williamsburg, or various Revolutionary War battlefields and such, so that they can see, touch, and play with them. Same with animals, if you wanted to teach about animals, you might make trips to the zoo, or even go out into the woods camping.

There's this odd myth that kids don't want to learn, thus school is necessary to teach them, but learning is children's natural state when you come to it. They don't want to be stuck in a classroom all day while doing it, but they want to learn.

You guys have seen some of my historical posts about attitudes of the Founders and such, but it might surprise you all to learn I hated Social Studies, and I even failed it my Junior year of high school. It was so god damned boring, I just couldn't stick with it. What changed was my move to Colonial Williamsburg just after Navy. I started getting to know more about the time, but in a far more interactive way.

Oh god, he knows how to mod minecraft, you'll never stop him now. You know, with that knowledge, he could actually start to write his own basic video games. Notch knew no more than he did really when he started Minecraft out of his apartment, he just learned as he went along.

[Dilloduck]

good gawd darin. can't you just let some of her things go to please.


As for your OP. I agree with FJ , IF the assignment was simply to fill out the sheet and grades were based off that criteria, no problem, but if instead grades are based on how much of each activity was done, well................

On the whole I don't like this sort of assignment anyway. Part of the reason for school is to begin to teach children how to function in real life. In real life we have jobs; we do those jobs from X o clock to X o clock so many days a week, what we do outside of those times is our own BUt we must be able to accomplish what we have been assigned within those hours; so to children should be taught to schedule and complete assignment within alloted times.

I dislike homework for that very reason.

If your kid is told to read a book and do a book report as homework, isn't that grading on school mandated behavior?

[Wind Song]

If your kid is told to read a book and do a book report as homework, isn't that grading on school mandated behavior?


I agree and I don't see how this assignment is threatening to parental authority.

[ConHog]

In un-schooling, you're essentially using the kid's activities, interests, and such to steer the lessons to them, like say, if you wanted to teach your kid about the American Revolution, you might go wander around Colonial Williamsburg, or various Revolutionary War battlefields and such, so that they can see, touch, and play with them. Same with animals, if you wanted to teach about animals, you might make trips to the zoo, or even go out into the woods camping.

There's this odd myth that kids don't want to learn, thus school is necessary to teach them, but learning is children's natural state when you come to it. They don't want to be stuck in a classroom all day while doing it, but they want to learn.

You guys have seen some of my historical posts about attitudes of the Founders and such, but it might surprise you all to learn I hated Social Studies, and I even failed it my Junior year of high school. It was so god damned boring, I just couldn't stick with it. What changed was my move to Colonial Williamsburg just after Navy. I started getting to know more about the time, but in a far more interactive way.

Oh god, he knows how to mod minecraft, you'll never stop him now. You know, with that knowledge, he could actually start to write his own basic video games. Notch knew no more than he did really when he started Minecraft out of his apartment, he just learned as he went along.


There are however actual advantages to a classroom setting. Not the least of which is students learn structure.

[DragonStryk72]

I don't see a problem with instilling the concept of physical activity in a group of 10 year olds. In fact, more kids would rather play virtual baseball, than go outside and find a few friends to start a game.

I don't see a problem with it, either. I see a problem with grading a kid for their off-time, however. As for video games, that one's on the parents. We had them when I was growing up as well, and you know what my parents? They turned off the tv, and kicked me out of the house, since I could honestly just sit and play Final Fantasy II for inane lengths of time.

I don't believe the 'grade' will be applied to his/her academic evaluation, rather, it's just a way to keep score in this 'contest'.

If it's a grade, it's a grade. It's like "Sure it'll go on his driving record, but I'm sure they won't really be on his driving record".

At that age, sometimes it helps to make a game out of something that ought to be done anyway.

Sure it does, I agree with that. However, this isn't a game, seeing as there is no one "playing". Trust me, I'm a lifelong gamer, this is an assignment. They have plenty of games at school that teach physical activity, like baseball, soccer, kickball, monster ball, ultimate frisbee, and more. Again, this is the entire reason Gym was put into the required curriculum.

Whereas your household may indeed offer the proper balance of physical/mental stimulation, there are many households that do not. In fact, there are quite a few households that don't have a 'typical' male/female balance.

Um, okay, there have literally always been households with atypical male/female balances, so not sure why that applies here, but the main point of physical stimulation is why we give them recess and gym on a daily basis, remember?

I'm interested to see how this turns out.

I am too, because I hope to God the school comes around before these sorts of things become institutionalized.

[darin]

There are however actual advantages to a classroom setting. Not the least of which is students learn structure.

Structure is taught in many ways. I think the LEAST of classroom setting is structure. The most are 'social skills'....soft skills.

[DragonStryk72]

There are however actual advantages to a classroom setting. Not the least of which is students learn structure.

And that can't be taught at home, why?

[Wind Song]

Preventing your child from doing his homework helps him, how? Even your son has more sense than you do. He had no problem with the assignment and is more than likely embarassed by your letter.

[ConHog]

Structure is taught in many ways. I think the LEAST of classroom setting is structure. The most are 'social skills'....soft skills.

Social skills can be learned many places to. And your right of course you COULD teach your kids the same structure as they learn at school. But the sad truth is that isn't how it usually works, that's why invariably home schooled kids are behind their public school counterparts who are behind their private school counterparts.

It isn't that kids who are homeschooled are dumber than publicly educated kids, or that private school kids are smarter. It's that they are more focused because they have to remain within a structure . I guess you could substitute the word disciplined for structured, and I don't mean "you were a bad boy/girl" type discipline.

There is a reason the Asian countries kick our ass in education.

[Dilloduck]

I think I'm upset about it for both of those reasons. Namely, ANY type of Social engineering or value-judgements. Schools shouldn't say 'Smoking is bad' - that's a value judgment. Schools should say "This is the result, based on data, of smoking - the badness or goodness is up to YOU" That sorta thing. Make sense?


No--it is impossible for a human to teach just the facts without imparting judgement on them either blatantly or subtly. Trust you kids to figure it out. I have seen the unintended consequences of parents who were only trying to protect their children at school. It's not always pretty.

[logroller]

My thoughts:
im a bad parent maybe; I just sign it. The funny thing is my kids don't watch more than two hours of tv(except weekends maybe) and do get better than thirty minutes of physical activity; but I see what angers you. You know what gets me riled up is the level of work sent home with my kids that I end up teaching them; while my wife, a teacher,can't get her students' parents to sign off their kids read. Two kids told my wife their parent said their homework is theirs, i shouldnt have make sure you do it. How do you teach a kid when they have that mindset as a role model?

[DragonStryk72]

Social skills can be learned many places to. And your right of course you COULD teach your kids the same structure as they learn at school. But the sad truth is that isn't how it usually works, that's why invariably home schooled kids are behind their public school counterparts who are behind their private school counterparts.

It isn't that kids who are homeschooled are dumber than publicly educated kids, or that private school kids are smarter. It's that they are more focused because they have to remain within a structure . I guess you could substitute the word disciplined for structured, and I don't mean "you were a bad boy/girl" type discipline.

There is a reason the Asian countries kick our ass in education.

The problem is, how it usually works doesn't honestly change much, and there are always, no matter what structure is used, those kids who just don't benefit from it, such as myself. I am horrible with classroom learning, I learning much faster and more readily on my own than I can at school. Conversely, my ex, Jillian, really needs the classroom to learn most efficiently.

[Wind Song]

One assignment that I like to give is to walk home from someplace using a different route. Write a page on what you saw, heard, smelled and felt.

[darin]

One assignment that I like to give is to walk home from someplace using a different route. Write a page on what you saw, heard, smelled and felt.

If you gave that to 10 year old kids, I'd probably consider suing you - should ANYTHING happen.

[Wind Song]

If you gave that to 10 year old kids, I'd probably consider suing you - should ANYTHING happen.


I'm sure you'd sue me even I gave the assignment to 20 year olds. If I was your kid's teacher and you pulled that "pick up" shit on me, I'd sue you.

[ConHog]

The problem is, how it usually works doesn't honestly change much, and there are always, no matter what structure is used, those kids who just don't benefit from it, such as myself. I am horrible with classroom learning, I learning much faster and more readily on my own than I can at school. Conversely, my ex, Jillian, really needs the classroom to learn most efficiently.

I 100% agree with you. Schools need to be able to be more flexible. Not every child does need a teacher standing over their shoulder from 8 AM to 330 PM from May until August. Some kids just need an educated adult their just in case they need help but for the most part are smart enough and driven enough to succeed on their own.

Others could use a full time drill instructor up their asses from the moment they step on the bus until they moment they stop off the buses.

Schools should be able to cater to the needs of each, not just have to teach everyone the same.

We offer almost every single course in our high school as an independent study. Now we are picky about who we let sign up for them, but those who do are generally far ahead of the main class. I know for a fact right now that we have 2 kids in our school who through independent study have ran out of math classes. We're having to buy some new courses and hire a part time instructor who can help them so they can start taking some college level stuff that we don't as of yet offer.

Now where would those kids be if they had to sit in the same classroom as some dummies who don't give a shit? And we all know there are lots of those in schools.

[ConHog]

I'm sure you'd sue me even I gave the assignment to 20 year olds. If I was your kid's teacher and you pulled that "pick up" shit on me, I'd sue you.

Will you stop. Darin made a legitimate point pertinent to YOUR post. YOU made a whacko comment in return. STOP IT.

[Wind Song]

Will you stop. Darin made a legitimate point pertinent to YOUR post. YOU made a whacko comment in return. STOP IT.

He's been doing these wacko pick up lines to me, I responded to that. He threatened to sue me and I threatened him back.

[fj1200]

Sometimes, one can only laugh.

[ConHog]

He's been doing these wacko pick up lines to me, I responded to that. He threatened to sue me and I threatened him back.

Big deal? Feel flattered that Darin wants to have your babies and move on. And he didn't threaten to sue you, he said that if his kid's teacher assigned the homework you proposed he would sue; and the proper response to that would have been to laugh at him and drop it.

[Wind Song]

Big deal? Feel flattered that Darin wants to have your babies and move on. And he didn't threaten to sue you, he said that if his kid's teacher assigned the homework you proposed he would sue; and the proper response to that would have been to laugh at him and drop it.

Look, I am not open to be criticised every single day for every single post I write.

[DragonStryk72]

I 100% agree with you. Schools need to be able to be more flexible. Not every child does need a teacher standing over their shoulder from 8 AM to 330 PM from May until August. Some kids just need an educated adult their just in case they need help but for the most part are smart enough and driven enough to succeed on their own.

This was my problem. I was already learning things when I hit kindergarten, and knew how to read, as well as basic writing and math. It got worse as I got older, and unfortunately, I got shafted for some years by teachers who didn't want to have to color outside the lines at all. I would start asking questions about what we were learning, usually some application of it that was year or two ahead of the lesson, and it would get immediately dismissed, or worse, I would get in trouble for it. So I stopped asking, and just pilfered my older sister's textbooks to get answers. Drove math teachers nuts because I could do most math in my head, and thus, didn't have to write out my work.

Others could use a full time drill instructor up their asses from the moment they step on the bus until they moment they stop off the buses.

Schools should be able to cater to the needs of each, not just have to teach everyone the same.

I believe the same thing, and our education does need to fundamentally change as it is. We got too comfortable in one way of doing things, and we stagnated, which is killing us now. We need to adapt, or we will continue to slip behind other countries.

We offer almost every single course in our high school as an independent study. Now we are picky about who we let sign up for them, but those who do are generally far ahead of the main class. I know for a fact right now that we have 2 kids in our school who through independent study have ran out of math classes. We're having to buy some new courses and hire a part time instructor who can help them so they can start taking some college level stuff that we don't as of yet offer.

Now see, that would've rocked for me. I could've knocked out my whole English requirement before the end of Freshman year. By that point I was already able to read aloud as fast as I talk normally, and high both high retention and comprehension. I actually wrote an entire paper on one exert from Shakespeare: "To be or not to be? That is the question. Whether it is in the mind to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, or to rise against injustice, to fight, to die to sleep nevermore," and it was over three pages long. The line had just stuck with me, being a writer myself by that point, and I wanted to explore it. I think she figured I was taking it as a cop out for the assignment, but the 100 at the top of the paper says she learned I wasn't taking it easy.

Now where would those kids be if they had to sit in the same classroom as some dummies who don't give a shit? And we all know there are lots of those in schools.

Yeah, killed me how many times I got stuck discussing the same topic for more than a week, when I'd already gotten it down the first day. There just wasn't enough "give a shit" in the world for me to keep paying attention. And oh god, the slow chapter by chapter reading assignments where we weren't allowed to read ahead, dear jesus. We got this one book, Nectar in a Sieve, that I hated with a fiery passion, and we were working on it for like three weeks. It sucked soo much, and I could've knocked it out in one day, and given my synopsis, but no, we had to watch everyone fumble around and try to feign interest for most of a month.

[ConHog]

Yeah, killed me how many times I got stuck discussing the same topic for more than a week, when I'd already gotten it down the first day. There just wasn't enough "give a shit" in the world for me to keep paying attention. And oh god, the slow chapter by chapter reading assignments where we weren't allowed to read ahead, dear jesus. We got this one book, Nectar in a Sieve, that I hated with a fiery passion, and we were working on it for like three weeks. It sucked soo much, and I could've knocked it out in one day, and given my synopsis, but no, we had to watch everyone fumble around and try to feign interest for most of a month.



Why I also favor two tracks. College bound, workforce bound. The school decides which one you're in. Not you or your parents. Bad enough when some kids want to fuck off and waste resources stymieing their own education, but I'll be damned if they should be allowed to impede the education of others.

Haven't had the nerve to try to institute that one yet though. LOL

[fj1200]

Why I also favor two tracks. College bound, workforce bound. The school decides which one you're in. Not you or your parents.

Good plan, but that's not the schools decision.

[ConHog]

Good plan, but that's not the schools decision.

I know , but it should be. Some sad sack who doesn't give a shit should not be in fucking up college algebra just because his parents want him there.

[Dilloduck]

I know , but it should be. Some sad sack who doesn't give a shit should not be in fucking up college algebra just because his parents want him there.

You would ruin that poor childs self esteem and that would be the end of his life. You may as well just give him a hoodie. :laugh:

[fj1200]

I know , but it should be. Some sad sack who doesn't give a shit should not be in fucking up college algebra just because his parents want him there.

Then tell the parents that they are now the proud owners of a stack of books tailored to an online home-school program that should suit the student better. Or stick him in a room with a computer and the same books. Oh yeah, his parents are still responsible for ensuing that he passes to get his diploma.

[logroller]

Why I also favor two tracks. College bound, workforce bound. The school decides which one you're in. Not you or your parents. Bad enough when some kids want to fuck off and waste resources stymieing their own education, but I'll be damned if they should be allowed to impede the education of others.

Haven't had the nerve to try to institute that one yet though. LOL

My brother in law is a German ex-pat. They have two tracts and test, I believe, when they're 14 or so. Interestingly, it also determines your required civic service; which is volunteer work for the college tract and military service for the workforce tract. Kind of a cool system i think; but it'd never fly here-- to progressive for some, too authoritarian for others.

My brother said he barely passed he college tract exam too, and he's really smart. Then I had a German expat in one of my classes, and he had went the other tract...he was dumb, but still managed to pull a B average in an American university. Anyone surprised?

[Abbey Marie]

You would ruin that poor childs self esteem and that would be the end of his life. You may as well just give him a hoodie. :laugh:


Typical on-the-money, funny, Dillo comment. :laugh2:

[ConHog]

Then tell the parents that they are now the proud owners of a stack of books tailored to an online home-school program that should suit the student better. Or stick him in a room with a computer and the same books. Oh yeah, his parents are still responsible for ensuing that he passes to get his diploma.


Why. There are jobs out there that need doing that don't require a college education. Those people still need at least the basics. I've no problem providing them a basic education that doesn't slow down the education of the more determined.

Now if we're talking about total losers who don't even want to do that? Then yes, I'd like to have more freedom to remove those kids from the system altogether.

[Abbey Marie]

Good plan, but that's not the schools decision.

I kinda like Con's idea; even having it be the school's decision initially. Based on perfomance, standardized testing, and, wait for it... attitude towards learning.

But I think each child should be regularly re-evaluated, to give them a chance if they were wrongly evaluated, or have changed for the better or worse.

[fj1200]

Why. There are jobs out there that need doing that don't require a college education. Those people still need at least the basics. I've no problem providing them a basic education that doesn't slow down the education of the more determined.

Now if we're talking about total losers who don't even want to do that? Then yes, I'd like to have more freedom to remove those kids from the system altogether.

Because diplomas do not come out of the candy van? If we can stop enabling those who prefer not to make an effort students and parents might snap back into shape educationally speaking.

[fj1200]

I kinda like Con's idea; even having it be the school's decision initially. Based on perfomance, standardized testing, and, wait for it... attitude towards learning.

But I think each child should be regularly re-evaluated, to give them a chance if they were wrongly evaluated, or have changed for the better or worse.

You can reevaluate every time a report card comes out but I don't like schools being the one to make those kinds of decisions. I agree that they need the right attitude but that will come out in the wash. If college-bound is more rigorous and they can't cut it then they will likely get dropped but it wasn't mandated from the beginning. I think there is too much momentum in decision making that it would be hard to overcome a bad or borderline decision. In my son's school "gifted" is determined once and there you are for the next set of years with little to change that initial decision. Just think how often college kids change their majors, I would hate to put the onus on them before they even get there.

[Howard Roark]

And appeasing them, or even pandering to them won't FIX them, either. I don't shield myself or my family from anything but those things most-damaging.



You used "your" or "You" - that's speculative; directed at me. Then you speculate I shield my kids from those I feel of lesser quality. That's a wild leap at best. And honestly, you have no grounds for such an assumption.



If not speculation, it's a conclusion you've reached apart from what I consider supportive evidence.



You assign benevolence where I assign 'damaging'. Schools promoting things like this assignment hint toward progressive societal agendas. And if I thought it was the case, I'd be honored for my kid being 'punished' for doing the right thing.



whose theory? not mine, really. Not every 'education' is beneficial.



Fine?



My point in doing so is this: Kids are who we make them to be. You use 'innate' - and I say there IS no innate, besides selfishness. Because my kids are taught to do so, they've taken a NEW nature - a new inner desire for GOOD.



Everyone is a model parent. Kids are raised to the model of their parents. Thankfully, God grabbed my mind and has given me a measure of foresight and wisdom - those things I impart upon my kids because I LOVE them, and it's my Duty as their dad.




An open-minded person concedes maybe Catholic schools have it right? Maybe its open-minded to acknowledge their methods may be best? We don't have a funding problem - we have a teacher problem. We have a union problem. We have a lack of strategic vision and wisdom problem. We have a family-unit-problem. We spend more $ per child than any time in national history and our kids are learning LESS and LESS in public schools. There's PLENTY of funding. We have a systematic failure of parents to give a shit and take action.



Fair enough.



I think I'm upset about it for both of those reasons. Namely, ANY type of Social engineering or value-judgements. Schools shouldn't say 'Smoking is bad' - that's a value judgment. Schools should say "This is the result, based on data, of smoking - the badness or goodness is up to YOU" That sorta thing. Make sense?



Meh - I don't. He'll be fine - but I watch very closely for social indoctrination and moral-education from public schools.

ya know, i REALLY want to thank you for such a reasonable, calm, educated and thought-provoking 'disagreement' or 'discussion' with me. very nice to have you on the board.

:beers:

Really late for an appointment....I'll respond later.

[Abbey Marie]

You can reevaluate every time a report card comes out but I don't like schools being the one to make those kinds of decisions. I agree that they need the right attitude but that will come out in the wash. If college-bound is more rigorous and they can't cut it then they will likely get dropped but it wasn't mandated from the beginning. I think there is too much momentum in decision making that it would be hard to overcome a bad or borderline decision. In my son's school "gifted" is determined once and there you are for the next set of years with little to change that initial decision. Just think how often college kids change their majors, I would hate to put the onus on them before they even get there.

I know, I am surprised myself that I said it should be the school's decision. I only say that because it seems that schools will never stop dumbing down to let the less qualified kids be in the college-bound courses. At least, that's how it seemed in our District. Progressive school boards and threats of lawsuits seem to be running the show, and combined, they seem to make it impossible to weed out the kids who don't belong.

[ConHog]

I kinda like Con's idea; even having it be the school's decision initially. Based on perfomance, standardized testing, and, wait for it... attitude towards learning.

But I think each child should be regularly re-evaluated, to give them a chance if they were wrongly evaluated, or have changed for the better or worse.

absolutely, I believe a child should be moved up or down accordingly. I don't believe that a kid who doesn't care in 9th grade might not grow into caring by the 11th, just for example.

[ConHog]

Because diplomas do not come out of the candy van? If we can stop enabling those who prefer not to make an effort students and parents might snap back into shape educationally speaking.

You're ignoring the kids who care but just aren't capable of more. They are entitled to a high school education. And as I said there are jobs out there that require education, but not necessarily more than a solid high school education could provide.

Are you suggesting kicking every kid who doesn't want to go to college out of high school?

[DragonStryk72]

Why. There are jobs out there that need doing that don't require a college education. Those people still need at least the basics. I've no problem providing them a basic education that doesn't slow down the education of the more determined.

Now if we're talking about total losers who don't even want to do that? Then yes, I'd like to have more freedom to remove those kids from the system altogether.

I like what they did at my brother Michael's high school. Basically it went like this: If you were doing "too well" in a class, they bumped you to next level up. This gave the teachers time to focus on the slower, or less ambitious students. By the time Michael hit his second semester of junior year, he was doing all college-level classes. Granted, it was a private school, but they also put 80% as passing, not 70%, so you had to actually really work for it.

[DragonStryk72]

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/Gqnrv0C2csQ" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Thought this would an interesting addition to the discussion about teaching that we're actually having.

[Abbey Marie]

Despite the annoying voice over, I thought that was pretty interesting stuff.
Gaming points = hit them where they live.

Especially loved "The perception that pregnancy somehow just happens".

[ConHog]

Despite the annoying voice over, I thought that was pretty interesting stuff.
Gaming points = hit them where they live.

Especially loved "The perception that pregnancy somehow just happens".


We give out gift cards for students who maintain certain grade levels. WM because , well that's what is in town. $10 for each B, $20 for each A. But just like with being eligible for sports, it's not JUST average. Meaning if you have 4 Bs and 2 Cs and an A you get nothing. You MUST maintain the B average at a minimum to get a gift card. The WM here matches 50 center per dollar purchased so that helps. Other local businesses donate. It doesn't cost the school itself anything.

This is for high school only.

[fj1200]

You're ignoring the kids who care but just aren't capable of more. They are entitled to a high school education. And as I said there are jobs out there that require education, but not necessarily more than a solid high school education could provide.

Are you suggesting kicking every kid who doesn't want to go to college out of high school?

Where on EARTH did you get that idea? And I am not ignoring anyone. I was all for your program with the caveat that it's not the school's decision. Then I stated that schools should have the option of taking alternative measures for those who don't want to learn and/or are disruptive to the rest of the students.

[ConHog]

Where on EARTH did you get that idea? And I am not ignoring anyone. I was all for your program with the caveat that it's not the school's decision. Then I stated that schools should have the option of taking alternative measures for those who don't want to learn and/or are disruptive to the rest of the students.

I didn't get the idea FJ I was asking for clarification.

If you don't think the school should decide. Who should? The parents who don't even care enough to help their kids with their homework?

[Wind Song]

What kind of "alternative" measures? I don't think people appreciate what it's like to be teacher these days. Most of the "teaching" is going away and what's left is behavior management.

[Abbey Marie]

What kind of "alternative" measures? I don't think people appreciate what it's like to be teacher these days. Most of the "teaching" is going away and what's left is behavior management.

Depends on the district, I think. But yeah, there is this problem in a lot of places. Causes IMO are parents who don't teach kids to value education or respect authority, and school boards who (understandably) fear law suits above all else. I worked for our district for a couple of years. I saw what it took to expel a problem kid, and how easily the parents got lawyered up for an appeal and got their little darling back in.

[DragonStryk72]

Depends on the district, I think. But yeah, there is this problem in a lot of places. Causes IMO are parents who don't teach kids to value education or respect authority, and school boards who (understandably) fear law suits above all else. I worked for our district for a couple of years. I saw what it took to expel a problem kid, and how easily the parents got lawyered up for an appeal and got their little darling back in.

There's also a horribly skewed perspective of parents that school is supposed to teach kids everything that they might need later on, which is of course, impossible, or to handle delicate topics that should really be more about the family talking to the kid, which isn't really the purpose of school

[Wind Song]

Depends on the district, I think. But yeah, there is this problem in a lot of places. Causes IMO are parents who don't teach kids to value education or respect authority, and school boards who (understandably) fear law suits above all else. I worked for our district for a couple of years. I saw what it took to expel a problem kid, and how easily the parents got lawyered up for an appeal and got their little darling back in.


It's more complicated than that. I live in a poor, rural community. 45% of our kids come from single parent homes, and 35% live in poverty. I've seen some really great teachers resign in total frustration at being unable to teach.

One of my favorite teachers, (I sub and assist), has 3rd and 4th grade combined. She has very bright students, (some of them doing eigth grade math), slow student, kids with serious behavior issues and kids functioning right on target for their grade level. The classroom is divided into zones. With one aide, she can barely make it. She really needs two.

Some parents are very involved with their kids, but the ones with the greatest needs typically have the least supportive parents.

I hear you about the lawsuits. You tell from this thread a couple of parents are law suit happy.

[Abbey Marie]

It's more complicated than that. I live in a poor, rural community. 45% of our kids come from single parent homes, and 35% live in poverty. I've seen some really great teachers resign in total frustration at being unable to teach.

One of my favorite teachers, (I sub and assist), has 3rd and 4th grade combined. She has very bright students, (some of them doing eigth grade math), slow student, kids with serious behavior issues and kids functioning right on target for their grade level. The classroom is divided into zones. With one aide, she can barely make it. She really needs two.

Some parents are very involved with their kids, but the ones with the greatest needs typically have the least supportive parents.

I hear you about the lawsuits. You tell from this thread a couple of parents are law suit happy.

I reject the idea that poor kids can't learn. I grew up in a very poor neighborhood, in "the projects" in fact, and ended up in college, and law school. The difference is my mother valued education, and made sure we did too. And if we misbehaved at home or in school, there were some real consequences.

[Wind Song]

I reject the idea that poor kids can't learn. I grew up in a very poor neighborhood, in "the projects" in fact, and ended up in college, and law school. The difference is my mother valued education, and made sure we did too. And if we misbehaved at home or in school, there were some real consequences.

You were fortunate. Did you come from a two parent family, as well as having a mother who valued education? You also had good parenting.

We've got kids whose parents don't have much education and don't value it either. They aren't always the best parents.

The issue of behavior management in schools is complicated.

[logroller]

There's also a horribly skewed perspective of parents that school is supposed to teach kids everything that they might need later on, which is of course, impossible, or to handle delicate topics that should really be more about the family talking to the kid, which isn't really the purpose of school
Wait. So parents are supposed to teach their kids not to bring a pocket knife to school and "jokingly" stab at another classmate? I thought so but the wife had three suspensions(facing expulsion) on tuesday. She blamed herself; wondering if she could have done something to prevent it. I told her if you have to tell 11 year olds not to stab people you might as well make the school uniform orange jumpsuits!

[Wind Song]

It helps if you're going to work with complicated situations that you're as creative as possible. Black and white thinking doesn't help.

[Abbey Marie]

You were fortunate. Did you come from a two parent family, as well as having a mother who valued education? You also had good parenting.

We've got kids whose parents don't have much education and don't value it either. They aren't always the best parents.

The issue of behavior management in schools is complicated.

I guess in some ways I was fortunate. It was no bed of roses, though.

Exactly why we need to be able to remove the bad apples from the classrooms. Whatever the reason they don't care about learning, what matters is that they are not allowed to ruin it for everyone else. I don't think we need to complicate it. If you have demonstrated that you don't want to or can't learn, it is in everyone's best interest to have you learning whatever it is will make you as productive a member of society you can be.

[Wind Song]

I guess in some ways I was fortunate. It was no bed of roses, though.

Exactly why we need to be able to remove the bad apples from the classrooms. Whatever the reason they don't care about learning, what matters is that they are not allowed to ruin it for everyone else. I don't think we need to complicate it. If you have demonstrated that you don't want to or can't learn, it is in everyone's best interest to have you learning whatever it is will make you as productive a member of society you can be.


What are you planning to do with the "bad" apples? Are they throwaway kids? Garbage?

[tailfins]

It helps if you're going to work with complicated situations that you're as creative as possible. Black and white thinking doesn't help.

Let me tell you some consequences of your type of thinking:
Exception Error thrown
Collapsing structures
Roadside breakdowns
Dead patients
Bankrupt companies
Overdrawn accounts
..... and many more.

I would day all of the above are "complication situations".

[Wind Song]

Let me tell you some consequences of your type of thinking:
Exception Error thrown
Collapsing structures
Roadside breakdowns
Dead patients
Bankrupt companies
Overdrawn accounts
..... and many more.

I would day all of the above are "complication situations".

That's ridiculous. Tell me all about "my kind of thinking". Be specific, don't make up abstract lists.

[Dilloduck]

At America's lower levels of education we now have massive amounts of babysitting and political indoctrination. In the upper levels there is still the common misconception that doing great in school will guarantee you a good paying job.
"Sure I'll borrow $50,000. I'll be making millions"

[ConHog]

it's became a chicken egg thing.

Try joining a school board you will quickly find out that 99% of parents will NEVER attend a meeting (which are of course open to the public) unless they have something to complain about. It's sad... It's like we don't exist unless they need us to fix something that they don't like. Now I'm not saying I want or need anyone up thanking me for doing the job. What I am saying is that it would be nice if the parents would show up and give us some positive input on the direction they would like our school to go. And our teachers say the same thing, the ONLY time they hear from parents is when there is a problem.

And then there are volunteer jobs, who shows up to help ? The same EXACT group for every single thing.

Parents today SUCK. But why how did they get that way? Is it something the school failed in? I mean somewhere along the line something's went wrong.

[ConHog]

Let me tell you some consequences of your type of thinking:
Exception Error thrown
Collapsing structures
Roadside breakdowns
Dead patients
Bankrupt companies
Overdrawn accounts
..... and many more.

I would day all of the above are "complication situations".

what does that have to do with what she said? All she said essentially was we need to think outside the box, and she's right.

[tailfins]

what does that have to do with what she said? All she said essentially was we need to think outside the box, and she's right.

I answered in general because I wasn't sure if she was in context with the thread or not. I was speaking of "black and white" thinking in general.

[Dilloduck]

it's became a chicken egg thing.

Try joining a school board you will quickly find out that 99% of parents will NEVER attend a meeting (which are of course open to the public) unless they have something to complain about. It's sad... It's like we don't exist unless they need us to fix something that they don't like. Now I'm not saying I want or need anyone up thanking me for doing the job. What I am saying is that it would be nice if the parents would show up and give us some positive input on the direction they would like our school to go. And our teachers say the same thing, the ONLY time they hear from parents is when there is a problem.

And then there are volunteer jobs, who shows up to help ? The same EXACT group for every single thing.

Parents today SUCK. But why how did they get that way? Is it something the school failed in? I mean somewhere along the line something's went wrong.

Could be they are busy as hell trying to pay for their kids needs and feel as if trying to recommend something to the school is a giant waste of breath because the answer is always "We don't have enough time/money/staff to do that."
Ok--then kick out the losers who are disrupting everyone else's education.
"We can't legally do that"

[ConHog]

Could be they are busy as hell trying to pay for their kids needs and feel as if trying to recommend something to the school is a giant waste of breath because the answer is always "We don't have enough time/money/staff to do that."
Ok--then kick out the losers who are disrupting everyone else's education.
"We can't legally do that"

we meet once a month , as a public meeting that is. ANYONE could make time to occasionally attend if they wanted. I've somehow managed to make time for several years now to not just attend , but to be part of the school board, No reason others can't as well.

[DragonStryk72]

Wait. So parents are supposed to teach their kids not to bring a pocket knife to school and "jokingly" stab at another classmate? I thought so but the wife had three suspensions(facing expulsion) on tuesday. She blamed herself; wondering if she could have done something to prevent it. I told her if you have to tell 11 year olds not to stab people you might as well make the school uniform orange jumpsuits!

lol, yeah, it gets kind of ridiculous the sorts of things that parents believe is on the school to teach. The basic "don't stab each other" lesson should be down pat by the time the kid hits 3.

[Wind Song]

The dynamic duo, DS and LR.

[ConHog]

The dynamic duo, DS and LR.





Stop!!! Damn

[ConHog]

lol, yeah, it gets kind of ridiculous the sorts of things that parents believe is on the school to teach. The basic "don't stab each other" lesson should be down pat by the time the kid hits 3.

Aint that the truth. But then again, shut up and don't interrupt a class should be known to.

[Wind Song]

Stop!!! Damn

I think they're kinda cute.:cheers2:

[DragonStryk72]

Aint that the truth. But then again, shut up and don't interrupt a class should be known to.

Seems like that one was well known even when I was going to school, lol. Not sure where the hell that went off the rails

[Trinity]

In un-schooling, you're essentially using the kid's activities, interests, and such to steer the lessons to them, like say, if you wanted to teach your kid about the American Revolution, you might go wander around Colonial Williamsburg, or various Revolutionary War battlefields and such, so that they can see, touch, and play with them. Same with animals, if you wanted to teach about animals, you might make trips to the zoo, or even go out into the woods camping.

There's this odd myth that kids don't want to learn, thus school is necessary to teach them, but learning is children's natural state when you come to it. They don't want to be stuck in a classroom all day while doing it, but they want to learn.

You guys have seen some of my historical posts about attitudes of the Founders and such, but it might surprise you all to learn I hated Social Studies, and I even failed it my Junior year of high school. It was so god damned boring, I just couldn't stick with it. What changed was my move to Colonial Williamsburg just after Navy. I started getting to know more about the time, but in a far more interactive way.

Oh god, he knows how to mod minecraft, you'll never stop him now. You know, with that knowledge, he could actually start to write his own basic video games. Notch knew no more than he did really when he started Minecraft out of his apartment, he just learned as he went along.


Absolutely 100% correct...touch, feel, see, experience and they love it....give them paper work and they hate it.

and RIGHT! I think I created a monster, but hey if it gets him where he wants to be in life and doing what he loves to do I am all for it.


You know I just had a thought...my 16 year old is going to be a junior in high school next year, he has attended public school his whole life, he is a social butterfly and likes being around his friends...my 13 year old is not a social butterfly, hates public school, and prefers to home school.

The difference my 16 year old has no idea what he wants to do after high school, my 13 year old knows exactly what he wants to do code games.

[DragonStryk72]

Absolutely 100% correct...touch, feel, see, experience and they love it....give them paper work and they hate it.

and RIGHT! I think I created a monster, but hey if it gets him where he wants to be in life and doing what he loves to do I am all for it.


You know I just had a thought...my 16 year old is going to be a junior in high school next year, he has attended public school his whole life, he is a social butterfly and likes being around his friends...my 13 year old is not a social butterfly, hates public school, and prefers to home school.

The difference my 16 year old has no idea what he wants to do after high school, my 13 year old knows exactly what he wants to do code games.

Well, Minecraft has personally netted Notch $6,000,000.00+ at this point (YES, after taxes, though he did give half of that back to his employees, all 12 of them.). IF modding and such continues to hold his interest, Full Sail University is the premier college for teaching video game design. They offer both classroom and online courses, so whichever ones works for him. Http://www.fullsail.edu/degrees

[Howard Roark]

And appeasing them, or even pandering to them won't FIX them, either. I don't shield myself or my family from anything but those things most-damaging.



You used "your" or "You" - that's speculative; directed at me. Then you speculate I shield my kids from those I feel of lesser quality. That's a wild leap at best. And honestly, you have no grounds for such an assumption.You've referenced 'village' in a negative way. It's clear that you have a strong family, and you are blessed with the ability to raise your children without the help of others. That happens to be your reality, which is vastly distinct from certain others in your community. Moreover, you seem to denounce those who don't share your repulsion of 'village'. You've generalized that those who struggle are probably divorced...no doubt due to their lack of love for their children.

I'll avoid the temptation to use the term 'speculation'.

Your choice to oversee every aspect of your childrens' upbringing, sans outside interference, is shielding them from that which you denounce. There's nothing wrong with that, but those who don't have the opportunity to do the same for their children, aren't 'lesser'. You go as far as to term this particular assignment as 'damaging' to your child. In essence, you are shielding your child by demanding that the school alter the assignment.




If not speculation, it's a conclusion you've reached apart from what I consider supportive evidence.
see above.



You assign benevolence where I assign 'damaging'. Schools promoting things like this assignment hint toward progressive societal agendas. And if I thought it was the case, I'd be honored for my kid being 'punished' for doing the right thing. 'Agendas' are nothing new. Nancy Reagan had 'Just Say No'. Since that era, the numbers re. childhood obesity/diabetes are staggering.
Is it the job of the govt. to correct the mistakes many families make? Probably not. But educating people to the benefits of altering negative life choices isn't going to cause the ruination of society. Quite the contrary. In fact, there are many families who will benefit from programs like this. You have the choice to reject that type of invasion into your private life.


whose theory? not mine, really. Not every 'education' is beneficial. Another reason I referred to your outlook as 'shielding' your children. I reference the theory that public school offers a child his first real life societal experience, and you reject it as invalid.

If you don't want your children seeing how the other half lives, or you feel there's no benefit from same, you have the right to your opinion.







My point in doing so is this: Kids are who we make them to be. You use 'innate' - and I say there IS no innate, besides selfishness. Because my kids are taught to do so, they've taken a NEW nature - a new inner desire for GOOD. I have bad news...you just agreed with my original point about kids not being good students by nature. They need a strong support system in the home, in order to excel in school.


Everyone is a model parent. Kids are raised to the model of their parents. Thankfully, God grabbed my mind and has given me a measure of foresight and wisdom - those things I impart upon my kids because I LOVE them, and it's my Duty as their dad.
You leave no doubt that you love your kids. I'd be careful to claim that other parents don't love their kids, solely because life hasn't dealt them the same hand it has dealt you.


An open-minded person concedes maybe Catholic schools have it right? Maybe its open-minded to acknowledge their methods may be best?
I respectfully submit that substantially smaller class size, coupled with less diversity of student base, goes a long way toward successful education. How these children interact in society, especially after they leave Catholic school, remains to be seen. There's documentation re. the 'forbidden fruit' syndrome.



We don't have a funding problem - we have a teacher problem. We have a union problem. We have a lack of strategic vision and wisdom problem. We have a family-unit-problem. We spend more $ per child than any time in national history and our kids are learning LESS and LESS in public schools. There's PLENTY of funding. We have a systematic failure of parents to give a shit and take action.You hit a few points dead on. You can document the failure of education in direct ratio with the failure of the family unit. I return to my original point...there is no child who excels in school, without a strong support system in the home.






I think I'm upset about it for both of those reasons. Namely, ANY type of Social engineering or value-judgements. Schools shouldn't say 'Smoking is bad' - that's a value judgment. Schools should say "This is the result, based on data, of smoking - the badness or goodness is up to YOU" That sorta thing. Make sense?I would agree in principle. Although, smoking IS bad. You have to consider the age of the student, and their ability to use reason when coming to their own conclusions. Your 'social engineering' outlook is further evidence of a desire to shield your children from that which you reject about society.

They will, at some point, join the ratrace. Parenting is fascinating. We never know how our methods are going to work, but we plod along with our best effort.



Meh - I don't. He'll be fine - but I watch very closely for social indoctrination and moral-education from public schools.He WILL be fine. That which you fear about indoctrination, should be viewed as an opportunity for him to ask you about these issues. You are given the opportunity to address your position, and avoid any perceived indoctrination from outside sources.


ya know, i REALLY want to thank you for such a reasonable, calm, educated and thought-provoking 'disagreement' or 'discussion' with me. very nice to have you on the board.

:beers:Hey..we're just talkin.

[tailfins]

The difference my 16 year old has no idea what he wants to do after high school, my 13 year old knows exactly what he wants to do code games.

That code games business will fade away as soon as he starts to do it. No one likes being underpaid in a sweatshop. Think in terms of "If you're getting your weekly work done in 50 hours, we need to tighten your deadlines". The good news is that code is code and he can build enterprise applications.

[DragonStryk72]

That code games business will fade away as soon as he starts to do it. No one likes being underpaid in a sweatshop. Think in terms of "If you're getting your weekly work done in 50 hours, we need to tighten your deadlines". The good news is that code is code and he can build enterprise applications.

Lol, he's doing it for nothing right now. Some people just like coding games, and he doesn't "have" to do anything. Much like Notch building Mojang, he can produce his own games.

[Trinity]

Well, Minecraft has personally netted Notch $6,000,000.00+ at this point (YES, after taxes, though he did give half of that back to his employees, all 12 of them.). IF modding and such continues to hold his interest, Full Sail University is the premier college for teaching video game design. They offer both classroom and online courses, so whichever ones works for him. Http://www.fullsail.edu/degrees

I actually checked into that school when I was searching for online schools....seems like it was a pretty good school.

[DragonStryk72]

You've referenced 'village' in a negative way. It's clear that you have a strong family, and you are blessed with the ability to raise your children without the help of others. That happens to be your reality, which is vastly distinct from certain others in your community. Moreover, you seem to denounce those who don't share your repulsion of 'village'. You've generalized that those who struggle are probably divorced...no doubt due to their lack of love for their children.

I'll avoid the temptation to use the term 'speculation'.

Your choice to oversee every aspect of your childrens' upbringing, sans outside interference, is shielding them from that which you denounce. There's nothing wrong with that, but those who don't have the opportunity to do the same for their children, aren't 'lesser'. You go as far as to term this particular assignment as 'damaging' to your child. In essence, you are shielding your child by demanding that the school alter the assignment.

'Agendas' are nothing new. Nancy Reagan had 'Just Say No'. Since that era, the numbers re. childhood obesity/diabetes are staggering.
Is it the job of the govt. to correct the mistakes many families make? Probably not. But educating people to the benefits of altering negative life choices isn't going to cause the ruination of society.


Quite the contrary. In fact, there are many families who will benefit from programs like this. You have the choice to reject that type of invasion into your private life.

Another reason I referred to your outlook as 'shielding' your children. I reference the theory that public school offers a child his first real life societal experience, and you reject it as invalid.

If you don't want your children seeing how the other half lives, or you feel there's no benefit from same, you have the right to your opinion.






I have bad news...you just agreed with my original point about kids not being good students by nature. They need a strong support system in the home, in order to excel in school.


You leave no doubt that you love your kids. I'd be careful to claim that other parents don't love their kids, solely because life hasn't dealt them the same hand it has dealt you.


I respectfully submit that substantially smaller class size, coupled with less diversity of student base, goes a long way toward successful education. How these children interact in society, especially after they leave Catholic school, remains to be seen. There's documentation re. the 'forbidden fruit' syndrome.


You hit a few points dead on. You can document the failure of education in direct ratio with the failure of the family unit. I return to my original point...there is no child who excels in school, without a strong support system in the home.




I would agree in principle. Although, smoking IS bad. You have to consider the age of the student, and their ability to use reason when coming to their own conclusions. Your 'social engineering' outlook is further evidence of a desire to shield your children from that which you reject about society.

They will, at some point, join the ratrace. Parenting is fascinating. We never know how our methods are going to work, but we plod along with our best effort.


He WILL be fine. That which you fear about indoctrination, should be viewed as an opportunity for him to ask you about these issues. You are given the opportunity to address your position, and avoid any perceived indoctrination from outside sources.

Hey..we're just talkin.

Except for the core issue with what you've written: Government tends most usually to expand, not contract, and thus, when you see assignments like this one, it tends to follow that they become the norm. Children are getting more and more stressed out by the ever increasing pressures in school, between new standardized testing, and tighter and tighter restrictions such as zero tolerance policies, so when do we draw that line if we're always going, "they'll be fine"?

By robbing parents of the chance to parent, we are harming our kids, as they are how most of us learn how to parent by watching our own. Admittedly, that's sometimes more of a "What not to do" list, but the fact still remains.

I would as well like to thank you for a proper response, even though we disagree.

[Trinity]

That code games business will fade away as soon as he starts to do it. No one likes being underpaid in a sweatshop. Think in terms of "If you're getting your weekly work done in 50 hours, we need to tighten your deadlines". The good news is that code is code and he can build enterprise applications.

Jesse will code games because Jesse wants to code games....... Jesse will never be the kind of person to be told what to do or how to do it. Jesse will create his own thing and be very successful at it because that is how he is.

[Howard Roark]

Except for the core issue with what you've written: Government tends most usually to expand, not contract, and thus, when you see assignments like this one, it tends to follow that they become the norm. Children are getting more and more stressed out by the ever increasing pressures in school, between new standardized testing, and tighter and tighter restrictions such as zero tolerance policies, so when do we draw that line if we're always going, "they'll be fine"?

By robbing parents of the chance to parent, we are harming our kids, as they are how most of us learn how to parent by watching our own. Admittedly, that's sometimes more of a "What not to do" list, but the fact still remains.

I would as well like to thank you for a proper response, even though we disagree.

I think it's important to understand that I'm not thrilled with what I see in schools these days. I've mentored kids for years. Whereas it's easy to make generalizations (that may very well be valid) about the home life of many of the 'lesser' students, there are situations that don't fall into the same category.

Life happens. Some are lucky, and never fully appreciate what it's like when a father dies tragically. If we think for a moment about how a mother with 3 young children will move forward with her life once that happens, we might just expand our horizons.

Likewise for a widower, or two young parents who must both work long hours to keep the family afloat.

Couple that with varied demographics, where a highschool might have 50% low income students, who have no interest in learning. Until/unless you experience the challenge of having your kids mingle with the worst of society while in class, you can't appreciate how hard it is to assure that your child excels despite staggering odds.

Yet, it is possible, albeit with a lot of hard work. I do agree with those who denounce the standardized testing, and especially the moronic, unfunded NCLB program from the last administration.

A kneejerk reaction to decades of declining numbers. It was more important to make it appear that children were learning, as opposed to assuring that children are learning.

Nevertheless, my point is that being a 'hands on' parent is a necessity if you want your kid to excel. Moreso in this climate, than ever before. We see the majority of complaints about teachers, from parents who either can't be bothered to assist with the learning process, don't have the time to, or just aren't capable of doing elementary school math/grammar.

If you start when kids are young, by the time they're in the higher grades, their study habits are already formed. You CAN get a quality education in the lousiest schools. It just takes more work.

Public schools have no choice but to appeal to the averages. These seeming 'social indoctrination' issues will actually benefit a lot of families. If it isn't appealing to a 'model' family, it can be used to remind kids that not every family has it so good.

[fj1200]

I didn't get the idea FJ I was asking for clarification.

If you don't think the school should decide. Who should? The parents who don't even care enough to help their kids with their homework?

I figured when you asked ridiculous questions then clarification is what you need. Why should the students/parents decide? Because I think that is their responsibility but I realize also that you question the parents ability to feed their own children so must be enabled there as well.

[DragonStryk72]

I think it's important to understand that I'm not thrilled with what I see in schools these days. I've mentored kids for years. Whereas it's easy to make generalizations (that may very well be valid) about the home life of many of the 'lesser' students, there are situations that don't fall into the same category.

Life happens. Some are lucky, and never fully appreciate what it's like when a father dies tragically. If we think for a moment about how a mother with 3 young children will move forward with her life once that happens, we might just expand our horizons.

Likewise for a widower, or two young parents who must both work long hours to keep the family afloat.

Which is more reason why we need to let these kids just be kids at some point. A number of schools seem to have this disconnect where kids are just miniature adults, but they aren't. They need downtime, not more time getting rammed with lessons and testing. There's this thing that bad admin does, wherein they come to a belief that simply adding more lesson time without increasing the time given to teach the lessons will get grades up, but it doesn't. Believe it or not, recess, gym, and weekends are important to developing kids. They need the mental break in order to improve retention.

Couple that with varied demographics, where a highschool might have 50% low income students, who have no interest in learning. Until/unless you experience the challenge of having your kids mingle with the worst of society while in class, you can't appreciate how hard it is to assure that your child excels despite staggering odds.

Yet, it is possible, albeit with a lot of hard work. I do agree with those who denounce the standardized testing, and especially the moronic, unfunded NCLB program from the last administration.

Blaming Bush for that one is no longer really valid, since the left got control of the House and Senate in 2007, and Obama in office shortly thereafter. If there were any issues they had with it, or if they just wanted to get rid of Bush-era policies, they had all the power they needed to do so. As they did absolutely nothing whatsoever, it can only be concluded that the administration is just as happy with the NCLB as the previous one was.

A kneejerk reaction to decades of declining numbers. It was more important to make it appear that children were learning, as opposed to assuring that children are learning.

Nevertheless, my point is that being a 'hands on' parent is a necessity if you want your kid to excel. Moreso in this climate, than ever before. We see the majority of complaints about teachers, from parents who either can't be bothered to assist with the learning process, don't have the time to, or just aren't capable of doing elementary school math/grammar.

See, but schools haven't "actually" been encouraging hands on learning with the parents. With an assignment like this, the parents pretty much just sign a piece of paper, and they're off. Had the assignment been to discuss with parents the monthly bills and budget, I could have easily seen real merit in that, on a few levels, really. The kid gets a better idea of how things are done in the house, and comes to appreciate that the cupboards don't just magically regenerate food.

If you start when kids are young, by the time they're in the higher grades, their study habits are already formed. You CAN get a quality education in the lousiest schools. It just takes more work.

I agree, but some of that work is reducing the amount to which we over-test, and another is not dismissing failure. Failure is learning, and some kids really just need that extra year in a grade to learn what they need to. The issue there is a fundamental misunderstanding of what failure really is, that it is somehow only a negative, and that it is bad.

Public schools have no choice but to appeal to the averages. These seeming 'social indoctrination' issues will actually benefit a lot of families. If it isn't appealing to a 'model' family, it can be used to remind kids that not every family has it so good.

Except that's not what they're actually trying to do. Most of these sorts of assignment come out of an individual teacher, not a greater plan for other things.

[Nukeman]

I actually checked into that school when I was searching for online schools....seems like it was a pretty good school.I ahve a 14 year old who loves designing video games.. He is actually looking at attending DigiPen University, its in Washington state and it specializes in video game design, coding, and graphic arts for video... You should look into it..

https://www.digipen.edu/

[Trinity]

I ahve a 14 year old who loves designing video games.. He is actually looking at attending DigiPen University, its in Washington state and it specializes in video game design, coding, and graphic arts for video... You should look into it..

https://www.digipen.edu/


I just did thanks! They actually offer online summer workshop programs for grade 8 or higher and a 540 hour online academy program for juniors and seniors in high school. The only thing I don't like is this part....

"Washington State Students: Most in-state students are eligible to take this course at no cost to themselves or their school district. Contact projectfunadministration@digipen.edu for more information. This course grants 1.5 credits per semester (WA only).
Out-of-State Students: Tuition for this program is $950 per semester."


Now I am wondering if any of our local colleges offer a similar program here that he could get credit hours for and attend for free.

[Kathianne]

Dmp, did you ever get a response from the teacher?

[Nukeman]

I just did thanks! They actually offer online summer workshop programs for grade 8 or higher and a 540 hour online academy program for juniors and seniors in high school. The only thing I don't like is this part....

"Washington State Students: Most in-state students are eligible to take this course at no cost to themselves or their school district. Contact projectfunadministration@digipen.edu for more information. This course grants 1.5 credits per semester (WA only).
Out-of-State Students: Tuition for this program is $950 per semester."


Now I am wondering if any of our local colleges offer a similar program here that he could get credit hours for and attend for free.


Yaa I know there "summer camps" are a little expensive but it is a phenomenal school! They have the latest and greatest technology available for their students. If our 14 year old doesn't get his stuff together he will be going locally. We have to sit on him constantly to get his work done. hes the type of kid that once he gets a concept he doesn't understand the need for repetition in homework. We always tell him its for the grade and its something you just have to do...

[Trinity]

Yaa I know there "summer camps" are a little expensive but it is a phenomenal school! They have the latest and greatest technology available for their students. If our 14 year old doesn't get his stuff together he will be going locally. We have to sit on him constantly to get his work done. hes the type of kid that once he gets a concept he doesn't understand the need for repetition in homework. We always tell him its for the grade and its something you just have to do...


I can relate...I get the same issues with Jesse...which is where the "this is boring" comes into play.

[Nukeman]

I can relate...I get the same issues with Jesse...which is where the "this is boring" comes into play.Yep!!! Gets bored easily, but he test into all honors for high school!! Drives me nuts

[ConHog]

Yep!!! Gets bored easily, but he test into all honors for high school!! Drives me nuts

If it's any consolation he sounds like I was and lots of kids are like that. He's bored b/c he's not challenged, look into getting him into some advanced classes.

[Nukeman]

If it's any consolation he sounds like I was and lots of kids are like that. He's bored b/c he's not challenged, look into getting him into some advanced classes.
He has been, the seperate the kids into 3 groups in the junior high here, they don't list it but the groups are seperated into learning abilities and apptitude. His group is the highest at the school and he is still bored. He tested into all honors courses in high school so we will see how that works. he is a very inteligent young man and loves to read and design video games.
hstory class
A quick story on him, he was doing VERY poorly in Social studies. i asked him why so bad a grade and to be honest. He said "I don't see the need for it, I wont use it". So I asked him about some of his video games that he likes to play (Call Duty and a lot like those plus a lot of fantasy like Skyrim). i said those are historicly accurate and the fantasy ones are based in ancient lore and mythology. I asked him where do you think they get the ideas for those? he looked at me cross ways and said " hystory class and SS?". I said that right so do you still NOT see the reason for those classes. He looked at me swuinted his eyes and harumphed away. in 2 weeks he went from a F to an A. so something that he could relate to. hate to say that it typical for him but it is!!!:thumb:

[Nukeman]

If it's any consolation he sounds like I was and lots of kids are like that. He's bored b/c he's not challenged, look into getting him into some advanced classes.he is a lot like me as well, It was funny when I was in high school and we took IQ test, when the results came back lots of my classmates accused me of cheating because mine was anywhere for 20-50 points higher than theres. I said "its not that I can't do the class work its that I don't want to do i"t...:laugh:

[revelarts]

he is a lot like me as well, It was funny when I was in high school and we took IQ test, when the results came back lots of my classmates accused me of cheating because mine was anywhere for 20-50 points higher than theres. I said "its not that I can't do the class work its that I don't want to do i"t...:laugh:

This type of thing is one reason I dislike the auto tracking kids in there teens to -college bound or workforce.-

there are a lot of kids that are smart enough for college or for high level technical or creative work that just aren't motivated to do the work in middle school or high school. they never got the talk from Nuke on why History would matter to them later in life. My school system put you in advanced classes, midrange classes or lower for the whole year based on your performance the year before from middle school on.
My 7th grade year i was in advanced courses i got Bs Cs Ds, but i wasn't trying. 8th grade i was put in middle level courses , As and Bs, i still wasn't trying. following year back to advanced courses. Bs Cs and Ds. etc. etc.

I know more than a few guys that skated though low level classes that were "smarter" than some folks in the advanced classes. but didn't try or ever make the grades to prove it.

I know people who went to college late , after they had been in the "workforce" at crappy jobs and realized that wanted better who Aced College work after "workforce" level performance in High school.

I also know some highly degreed college grads that you wonder how they managed. Very good study & testing skill is my only guess, because some can't think beyond a page in a book.

Short answer, teenage grades don't always determine aptitude. the mandatory professional vs worker bee track idea is not and should not be a tight career construct.
But the warehouse schooling mentality makes it seems, "the best" option when education should have dozens of options IMO.

[DragonStryk72]

Yep!!! Gets bored easily, but he test into all honors for high school!! Drives me nuts

Lol, I think I nearly drove my dad to beating me on this one. I came to genuinely hate English class, and I love reading, but listening to every other student fumble through book after book, and getting assigned these deeply horrible, pointless stories... Oh god, there was just no way to get me back in that way. Even with Shakespeare, I could read aloud as fast as I could talk normally, and with mostly proper inflections. I was constantly being told not to read ahead, but how do you not just plow through a book you don't want to be reading in the first place, when your only other option is a slow, methodical raking over the coals about every individual chapter.'

In some ways, being smarter than the people around you can get treated as a bad thing, not only by students, but by teachers as well, and many simply start letting their grades slip to cover it up. Students, of course, make fun of you with the classic "geek" "nerd", and "dork", but teachers a lot of times try to rein in the ones who are able to rush ahead. I understand the reason they do it, but it's still hampering the kids who are already good at this stuff, and want to move on to other things.

[Nukeman]

Lol, I think I nearly drove my dad to beating me on this one. I came to genuinely hate English class, and I love reading, but listening to every other student fumble through book after book, and getting assigned these deeply horrible, pointless stories... Oh god, there was just no way to get me back in that way. Even with Shakespeare, I could read aloud as fast as I could talk normally, and with mostly proper inflections. I was constantly being told not to read ahead, but how do you not just plow through a book you don't want to be reading in the first place, when your only other option is a slow, methodical raking over the coals about every individual chapter.'

In some ways, being smarter than the people around you can get treated as a bad thing, not only by students, but by teachers as well, and many simply start letting their grades slip to cover it up. Students, of course, make fun of you with the classic "geek" "nerd", and "dork", but teachers a lot of times try to rein in the ones who are able to rush ahead. I understand the reason they do it, but it's still hampering the kids who are already good at this stuff, and want to move on to other things.
I really understand what you are saying. It is VERY difficult to not work ahead when the instructors were slowing things down for the "slower" kids. The NCLB bull crap is just that.. You don't teach to the slowest kid yo teach to the individual but our public education system is NOT designed that way even though they will give lip service to "individualized" plans they rarely ever do what they say!!

[Kathianne]

I really understand what you are saying. It is VERY difficult to not work ahead when the instructors were slowing things down for the "slower" kids. The NCLB bull crap is just that.. You don't teach to the slowest kid yo teach to the individual but our public education system is NOT designed that way even though they will give lip service to "individualized" plans they rarely ever do what they say!!

It's very easy to teach to the individual when there are fewer than 6 students in the group-aka special education. It's also easy with 30 very bright and motivated students, known as 'gifted' or 'AP' type classes. Actually with the later, all one really has to do is point, they take it from there.

What's impossible is teaching a class of let's say 30 'average students' individually. Oh trust me, many lessons and/or activities are differentiated, tailored to the various learning types. However, in all likelihood there are at least 2 kids that don't want to be there, are actively not learning and disrupting others. There is at least 1 that has an undiagnosed severe learning disability. There are probably 2 very high ability, low performing students-also unidentified by the powers that need to do so. Probably 4 very low ability students that the higher the grade level, the further they are from their peers.

So the teacher presents the lesson, usually several ways. One doesn't want the visual learners to be left behind by all direct instruction, (lecture). We bring in charts, powerpoints, music all in attempts to provide information and period. Hopefully at least 25 kids are engaged before they actually begin their own explorations on the topic. Provide several venues and modes that they can use to compile their own project as evidence they grasped the concepts being taught. They may choose between a written report, art presentation-which can be their own or use technology, they may use drama, either through acting or interviews. They may work individually or in a group.

Still a handful will fail to even attempt, a few just won't be able to.

No matter how one looks at it, special ed class numbers are not going to become the norm.

It's the few kids, perhaps 5 or so out of 30, for whom regular education classes are not going to work. High schools are beginning to recognize that, though too late, IMO. They have 'credit recovery classes.' These are kids in grades 10-12 that are short hours, through failure. They come into the computer lab, log in, the classes they failed are taught in short bits, they the student has to choose the right answer-the program will not move on until mastery is proven. After the 3rd attempt, a pop up tells the student that they must contact so and so, who is sent an email when the pop up appears. Some have more than a full year of courses on their logs. If they are motivated, they get one-on-one help when necessary by the teacher getting the email.

Truth of the matter, many kids could benefit from something like this in order to move through school more quickly. The problem is that the courses for credit recovery are bare bones, much like GED study.

[logroller]

You know what motivated me to apply myself in school....digging ditches for 5 years. It's a sure cure for laziness.

[Kathianne]

You know what motivated me to apply myself in school....digging ditches for 5 years. It's a sure cure for laziness.

That would do it. ;) I went through high school ditching most of my last 3 years. School was so overcrowded-baby boom, there just wasn't enough space, that teachers could NOT count homework as a grade. I'd show up for the tests, do fine. Some classes like English and social studies I visited more than others-but really hated the hallways during passing periods, I really do have claustrophobia. Being a tick over 5' didn't help, all I saw were others chests.

I hadn't any desire to go to college, my mother forged the application to the school one of my cousin's was at. She, (I) got in. She failed to mention this to me until after HS grad. ceremony, that 'we' were going to this university, the next day. She, (I) was enrolled for summer session. Best of her vast list of 'high-handed' decrees. LOL!

[logroller]

That would do it. ;) I went through high school ditching most of my last 3 years. School was so overcrowded-baby boom, there just wasn't enough space, that teachers could NOT count homework as a grade. I'd show up for the tests, do fine. Some classes like English and social studies I visited more than others-but really hated the hallways during passing periods, I really do have claustrophobia. Being a tick over 5' didn't help, all I saw were others chests.

I hadn't any desire to go to college, my mother forged the application to the school one of my cousin's was at. She, (I) got in. She failed to mention this to me until after HS grad. ceremony, that 'we' were going to this university, the next day. She, (I) was enrolled for summer session. Best of her vast list of 'high-handed' decrees. LOL!
See, my issue was I didn't heed the good natured push my mother gave me to go to college. I had to learn that lesson on my own. I'm assuming you made the most of your mother's (your) college acceptance; but why, in your opinion-- maybe you're just less stubborn than I am?;)

[ConHog]

That would do it. ;) I went through high school ditching most of my last 3 years. School was so overcrowded-baby boom, there just wasn't enough space, that teachers could NOT count homework as a grade. I'd show up for the tests, do fine. Some classes like English and social studies I visited more than others-but really hated the hallways during passing periods, I really do have claustrophobia. Being a tick over 5' didn't help, all I saw were others chests.

I hadn't any desire to go to college, my mother forged the application to the school one of my cousin's was at. She, (I) got in. She failed to mention this to me until after HS grad. ceremony, that 'we' were going to this university, the next day. She, (I) was enrolled for summer session. Best of her vast list of 'high-handed' decrees. LOL!



Glad she made you go, because I actually believe you are a credit to the teaching profession.


Yes I really said that.

[Kathianne]

See, my issue was I didn't heed the good natured push my mother gave me to go to college. I had to learn that lesson on my own. I'm assuming you made the most of your mother's (your) college acceptance; but why, in your opinion-- maybe you're just less stubborn than I am?;)

There really wasn't anything 'good natured' about it. She had made up her mind that I wasn't going to get an apartment and waitress forever, (I was making over $350 a week working Sat. for 5 hours, Sun for 4, and 4 hours one weeknight. This was 1973!) I actually liked the job, very 'unlike me.' Had to actually make small talk and joke around, it was like acting.

My mom knew though, as did my teachers that I was a thinker and reader. I loved to ague, but not about petty stuff. I always had a few close friends, didn't like large groups. While my high school was very good, it was a very bad time to be there for me. Until high school I was always a brainiac. In high school I found that playing outside was more fun. She wanted me to try to remember what I liked about books and thinking. She won. She nearly always did. ;)

[Kathianne]

Glad she made you go, because I actually believe you are a credit to the teaching profession.


Yes I really said that.

Thanks. I think I'm pretty good too. ;) Truth is, I was never thinking of teaching. When I was entering my senior year back in '76, I took the LSAT's and was accepted at Northwestern. That was the plan by that time. I met my husband my senior year. D'oh!

[ConHog]

Thanks. I think I'm pretty good too. ;) Truth is, I was never thinking of teaching. When I was entering my senior year back in '76, I took the LSAT's and was accepted at Northwestern. That was the plan by that time. I met my husband my senior year. D'oh!

I always intended to teach, I mean why else degrees in history, and library science, and I even got my certification; but fell in love with my Guard duty.

Probably why I am so involved with the school board. I still want to have some input into education. I guess I could go teach now, but my wife likes me at home LOL.

[kowalskil]

My son presented me with a form last night. The form has two columns and many rows; one column is labelled "I spent 30 minutes in a physical activity" the other is "I watched TV for less than 2 hours today"

My son asked me to sign off on his row from last night. Not thinking much, I scribbled away. Talking more with him, however, raised a flag with me.

My son will be graded on this form - if he doesn't have my signature 'proving' he abides by this schedule, his grade will be lower. Here's the note I sent his teacher - what're your thoughts?



Look - promoting general health of kids is a good thing. If the kids have voluntary programs like this, no big deal - but requiring him to do this, and docking his grade because he didn't follow the guidelines? That's pure horse crap, IMO.

Grades should depend only on how much of the required material has been learned, not on unrelated factors.

Ludwik Kowalski (see Wikipedia)
author of a free ON-LINE book entitled “Diary of a Former Communist: Thoughts, Feelings, Reality.”


http://csam.montclair.edu/~kowalski/life/intro.html

[Roo]

Only the right wing could find something wrong with a suggestion this benign. You folks take the cake.

The problem for leftwing kooks is this....we on the Right engage in active parenting, we don't need any bullshit interference from leftwing nanny state dudley dorights.

You go ahead and let the State run your life....but we'll kick your asses if you try and take over for us.