Objective learning, religious style.

[Noir]

Got this from a friend of a friend, is this not the most unbias and unweighted question you have ever read?

http://i50.tinypic.com/ajmj4i.png

Now i understand that most Catholics (and most people here, including myself) are anti-abortion in most cases, and i know very little of Planned Parenthood, however, this is not schooling, there is not room to research and explore you own answer. You are told what you must conclude and the whole essay is geared towards that conclusion.

I'm assuming the answer will be 'don't like it, don't go to a catholic school', but that isn't addressing the actual problem IMO.

[BDBoop]

Oh, truly it is.

Frankly, I can't wait to find out what all the repercussions will be from this non-existent battle.

[DragonStryk72]

Got this from a friend of a friend, is this not the most unbias and unweighted question you have ever read?

http://i50.tinypic.com/ajmj4i.png

Now i understand that most Catholics (and most people here, including myself) are anti-abortion in most cases, and i know very little of Planned Parenthood, however, this is not schooling, there is not room to research and explore you own answer. You are told what you must conclude and the whole essay is geared towards that conclusion.

I'm assuming the answer will be 'don't like it, don't go to a catholic school', but that isn't addressing the actual problem IMO.

Now, I am pro-life, but yeah, this essay is horrible. I actually went to Catholic school growing up, and I'm thankful to say that they never felt a need to pull this sort of crap on us. Certainly, they were pro-Jesus, but they never let it get in the way of teaching, and letting us come to our own understanding of the world.

Both sides of the fence pull this though, and that's what sucks. Any time where you are telling someone what their personal opinion is supposed to be, and lay out how they're supposed to answer in support of that opinion, you've stopped teaching and start proselytizing, whatever belief it might be that you're putting out.

[Wind Song]

I'm personally against abortion for religious reasons, but politically pro-life. I think the person who has the uterus ultimately has the decision of whether to carry or terminate the pregnancy.

[fj1200]

I'm personally against abortion for religious reasons, but politically pro-life. I think the person who has the uterus ultimately has the decision of whether to carry or terminate the pregnancy.

So the fetus is property?

[Wind Song]

So the fetus is property?

The uterus is the property of the woman. The woman matters. She is the owner of her body.

[fj1200]

The uterus is the property of the woman. The woman matters. She is the owner of her body.

She engaged in a contractual relationship that had the potential of creating a tenant in her property. You avoided the question; a fetus is property?

[BDBoop]

So. She shouldn't have had sex?

[fj1200]

So. She shouldn't have had sex?

Is that your view and solution to the abortion dilemma?

[BDBoop]

No. But then I've spent the past few months explaining that women have reproductive rights over their bodies, and there shouldn't be a penalty or punishment for getting laid.

[fj1200]

No. But then I've spent the past few months explaining that women have reproductive rights over their bodies, and there shouldn't be a penalty or punishment for getting laid.

Who said that they didn't? So you seem to fall into the fetus as property argument because the penalty seems to lie with the fetus if her actions led to its "creation."

[Noir]

No. But then I've spent the past few months explaining that women have reproductive rights over their bodies, and there shouldn't be a penalty or punishment for getting laid.

Getting pregnant is not a penalty or a punishment.

[Wind Song]

She engaged in a contractual relationship that had the potential of creating a tenant in her property. You avoided the question; a fetus is property?


Hardly. Many women get pregnant inspite of trying hard not to.

The uterus is the property of the woman. She determines whether to continue the pregnancy or terminate it. Forcing a woman to carry the pregnancy to term against her will is a violation of her human rights.

[fj1200]

Getting pregnant is not a penalty or a punishment.

Right, it's a possible outcome.

[DragonStryk72]

Okay, guys, this wasn't actually about abortion here. WS doesn't have to defend that point here. Noir posted about an essay, so let's try to stay on topic here.

[fj1200]

Hardly. Many women get pregnant inspite of trying hard not to.

So they clearly know what could happen when having sex right?


The uterus is the property of the woman. She determines whether to continue the pregnancy or terminate it. Forcing a woman to carry the pregnancy to term against her will is a violation of her human rights.

A natural function of life is not a violation of her "human rights" as she didn't have sex against her will and according to you they are aware of what could happen. So again, you believe a fetus is property? And what of the human rights of the fetus?

[Wind Song]

So. She shouldn't have had sex?

That's usually the answer the right wing has.

[fj1200]

That's usually the answer the right wing has.

Wasn't that you getting butt hurt over my "translation"? Now you get to create positions for those who don't share your opinion?

[Wind Song]

So they clearly know what could happen when having sex right?



A natural function of life is not a violation of her "human rights" as she didn't have sex against her will and according to you they are aware of what could happen. So again, you believe a fetus is property? And what of the human rights of the fetus?

Yes, of course. That's one reason it is legal to terminate an unwanted pregnancy.

The woman has the legal right to determine if she wants to continue the pregnancy or not. Making this decision illegal has NEVER stopped women from making this choice.

Who should decide? The woman or the government/right wing christians?

[Wind Song]

Wasn't that you getting butt hurt over my "translation"? Now you get to create positions for those who don't share your opinion?


First, what the hell is it with that term, "butt hurt"? What on earth do you mean?

You make your own position. You're stuck with it, not me.

[fj1200]

Yes, of course. That's one reason it is legal to terminate an unwanted pregnancy.

The woman has the legal right to determine if she wants to continue the pregnancy or not. Making this decision illegal has NEVER stopped women from making this choice.

Who should decide? The woman or the government/right wing christians?

Finally you answer one question. So now, what of the human rights of the fetus? And yes, society, via government, generally is the entity that protects the life, liberty, and property of its citizens.

[fj1200]

First, what the hell is it with that term, "butt hurt"? What on earth do you mean?

You make your own position. You're stuck with it, not me.

Butt hurt. :laugh: It's just a saying lighten up.

And that is not my position and you taking the easy way out of creating it for me does your position no good. You'd do far better to address my positions as I bring them up, not piggy back on another poster's attempt to create one for me.

[BDBoop]

Okay, guys, this wasn't actually about abortion here. WS doesn't have to defend that point here. Noir posted about an essay, so let's try to stay on topic here.

Okay. I will not respond to any previous posts responding to my OT post.

[Wind Song]

Finally you answer one question. So now, what of the human rights of the fetus? And yes, society, via government, generally is the entity that protects the life, liberty, and property of its citizens.

The fetus doesn't have rights, unless the pregnant woman grants them.

[fj1200]

Okay. I will not respond to any previous posts responding to my OT post.

Oh ignore him, it's a logical extension of the thread.

:poke: @ DS

[fj1200]

The fetus doesn't have rights, unless the pregnant woman grants them.

Why is it not entitled to the same rights that you have? When is it entitled to the same rights that you have?

[tailfins]

The fetus doesn't have rights, unless the pregnant woman grants them.

Rights are God given. Therefore, if there is no God there are no rights. Your position has no basis. If a woman can treat an unborn child as someone with no rights, the government can treat women as someone with no rights. In your world the father has no rights, just obligations. I can tolerate gays, communists, drug addicts, felons, hippies, etc. However, I want nothing to do with a woman that can kill a baby. She is no better than Richard Allen Davis, the killer of Polly Klaas.

[DragonStryk72]

Oh ignore him, it's a logical extension of the thread.

:poke: @ DS

lol, it's not even about the abortion thing, but about the teacher obviously telling them what their opinion is. Imagine that the question held the opposite opinion, that abortion was totally correct, and that we should write an essay on why those who are pro-life are entirely wrong.

Teachers have a lot of pull, and when they use their influence for things like this, it's just plain wrong.

[fj1200]

^I don't disagree with you but we also don't know what the class was. That would have some bearing IMO.

[BDBoop]

Oh ignore him, it's a logical extension of the thread.

:poke: @ DS

He's not a mod? Well then wtf?

[Nukeman]

lol, it's not even about the abortion thing, but about the teacher obviously telling them what their opinion is. Imagine that the question held the opposite opinion, that abortion was totally correct, and that we should write an essay on why those who are pro-life are entirely wrong.

Teachers have a lot of pull, and when they use their influence for things like this, it's just plain wrong.Then we would have been discussing "PUBLIC" school instead of a private one....... That is their position on most things involving PP....

I am curous WS like FJ asked "when does a fetus gain rights" At what point does it become a person???

[BDBoop]

Why is it not entitled to the same rights that you have? When is it entitled to the same rights that you have?

When it can survive independent of her.

[Nukeman]

When it can survive independent of her.
False argument,
ALL infants and most small children CAN NOT survive without the help of adults or others.. So Try again!!!:poke:

[Noir]

Then we would have been discussing "PUBLIC" school instead of a private one....... That is their position on most things involving PP....

I am curous WS like FJ asked "when does a fetus gain rights" At what point does it become a person???

Why would it have to be a public school?

[BDBoop]

False argument,
ALL infants and most small children CAN NOT survive without the help of adults or others.. So Try again!!!:poke:

"Other adults." Exactly. Not the one it's busy sucking the life out of.

[Noir]

"Other adults." Exactly. Not the one it's busy sucking the life out of.

That is wonderfully poor "quoting"

[BDBoop]

Okay, there's a quoting rule?

[Nukeman]

"Other adults." Exactly. Not the one it's busy sucking the life out of.
I would have said "mother" however that would mean they delivered the baby plus there is usualy a father involved!!!!

Quit being obtuse you know EXACTLY what and who I was refering to.

[Nukeman]

Why would it have to be a public school?
Because here in the US that is the standard take on reproductive rights in the public schools. it is the womens decision only and they have the right to end a pregnancy for whatever reason and can use it as birth control... If they were going to teach anything religous in nature it would be deemed illegal what with the whole fallacy of "seperation of church and state".. Just saying!!! :coffee:

[Noir]

Okay, there's a quoting rule?

Well, no, its not a rule, but there should be an understanding that when someone says "adults or others" that does not mean "other adults".

[Noir]

Because here in the US that is the standard take on reproductive rights in the public schools. it is the womens decision only and they have the right to end a pregnancy for whatever reason and can use it as birth control... If they were going to teach anything religous in nature it would be deemed illegal what with the whole fallacy of "seperation of church and state".. Just saying!!! :coffee:

I'm quite sure there are secular private schools too, and even if there are not, its easy to hypothesise their existence, and whether or not a similarly asked, but inverted, question in the OP would be regarded as eduction, or propaganda.

[Abbey Marie]

Hardly. Many women get pregnant inspite of trying hard not to.

The uterus is the property of the woman. She determines whether to continue the pregnancy or terminate it. Forcing a woman to carry the pregnancy to term against her will is a violation of her human rights.

Carrying a fetus is in fact the raison d'etre for having a uterus in the first place. Having a uterus in one's body is hardly a reason to justify killing the very thing it exists to support.

[fj1200]

When it can survive independent of her.

Why does the fetus deserve rights based on the answer to a question that is, in part, based on technological advancement? In other words, why the difference in rights between month 3 and month 8?

[Wind Song]

Why is it not entitled to the same rights that you have? When is it entitled to the same rights that you have?

Because we haven't assigned it status as a "person" owed rights.

[jimnyc]

Hardly. Many women get pregnant inspite of trying hard not to.

The uterus is the property of the woman. She determines whether to continue the pregnancy or terminate it. Forcing a woman to carry the pregnancy to term against her will is a violation of her human rights.

And it takes TWO to get to the point of giving birth or terminating. I think there should be recourse for the man in the relationship. And no, not stamping on women or trumping men - just stating that as of right now men get screwed, excuse the pun. If the woman wants to terminate, the man has no say. If the woman wants to keep the baby, man has no say, but will be just as liable for 18yrs. I understand that it's the woman's body we're discussing, but both involved in creating life should have equal say.

[Wind Song]

And it takes TWO to get to the point of giving birth or terminating. I think there should be recourse for the man in the relationship. And no, not stamping on women or trumping men - just stating that as of right now men get screwed, excuse the pun. If the woman wants to terminate, the man has no say. If the woman wants to keep the baby, man has no say, but will be just as liable for 18yrs. I understand that it's the woman's body we're discussing, but both involved in creating life should have equal say.

Yes, I've heard that concern from men alot. It's not an equal say. When men start implanting uteruses inside themselves they get an equal say.

[tailfins]

Yes, I've heard that concern from men alot. It's not an equal say. When men start implanting uteruses inside themselves they get an equal say.

Don't sugar coat it: You mean ZERO say. My advice to men is that your only protection from having your child murdered is good screening techniques. Be careful with whom you associate. And women wonder why they have difficulty finding a good guy.

It's pervasive enough to merit a song:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_3yeQeBOAI

[jimnyc]

Yes, I've heard that concern from men alot. It's not an equal say. When men start implanting uteruses inside themselves they get an equal say.

Both the man and woman had/have a responsibility when having sex. Just purely having an organ shouldn't negate what a man wants. A man can lose his child if the woman says so. IMO, the time to sort out who wants what, who is responsible for what, and what both want - is before having sex, or in a manner that could lead to pregnancy.

I know MANY guys who have had wives/girlfriends sneak off and get abortions without even discussing it with the man. Legal, but quite disgusting in my opinion.

[Wind Song]

Don't sugar coat it: You mean ZERO say. My advice to men is that your only protection from having your child murdered is good screening techniques. Be careful with whom you associate. And women wonder why they have difficulty finding a good guy.

It's pervasive enough to merit a song:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_3yeQeBOAI

I wouldn't know. That's never something I've worried about.

It used to be men didn't give a shit if they knocked somebody up. They just cut and run.

[jimnyc]

It used to be men didn't give a shit if they knocked somebody up. They just cut and run.

Maybe a lot of it has to do with women making demands once pregnant, and taking away any rights that a man could have and any say in the process. While I do despise deadbeat dads - I do find it odd that so many women don't give a shit what a man wants when determining what to do with a pregnancy, but will then scream from the mountains about men having to pay.

And quite frankly, I think a woman who has an abortion without a mans say - THAT is cutting and running.

[Wind Song]

Maybe a lot of it has to do with women making demands once pregnant, and taking away any rights that a man could have and any say in the process. While I do despise deadbeat dads - I do find it odd that so many women don't give a shit what a man wants when determining what to do with a pregnancy, but will then scream from the mountains about men having to pay.

And quite frankly, I think a woman who has an abortion without a mans say - THAT is cutting and running.

Poor men. They have it so rough.

[jimnyc]

Poor men. They have it so rough.

Just because you think a man losing his child is funny, doesn't mean others do. You scoff at what I say about men, but are the first to complain about dead beat dads. The woman has the uterus, let her decide whether or not to carry a baby to term. The man has the bank account, let him decide if he would like to pay. I'm guessing you won't scoff at that idea though and will demand that the man pay.

[Wind Song]

Just because you think a man losing his child is funny, doesn't mean others do. You scoff at what I say about men, but are the first to complain about dead beat dads. The woman has the uterus, let her decide whether or not to carry a baby to term. The man has the bank account, let him decide if he would like to pay. I'm guessing you won't scoff at that idea though and will demand that the man pay.

1. I'm not complaining.

2. This isn't my personal issue.

3. The law isn't on your side.

4. You're whining.

[BDBoop]

I would have said "mother" however that would mean they delivered the baby plus there is usualy a father involved!!!!

Quit being obtuse you know EXACTLY what and who I was refering to.

I've been here I wanna say 20 minutes so please don't tell me I'm a mind-reader.

[jimnyc]

1. I'm not complaining.

2. This isn't my personal issue.

3. The law isn't on your side.

4. You're whining.

*sigh*. I tried having a typical debate with you and it appears you aren't capable. Whatever, I can find other topics and adults to discuss things with.

[Wind Song]

*sigh*. I tried having a typical debate with you and it appears you aren't capable. Whatever, I can find other topics and adults to discuss things with.


Fine with me.

[Wind Song]

*sigh*. I tried having a typical debate with you and it appears you aren't capable. Whatever, I can find other topics and adults to discuss things with.

OK Jim,

Go talk to the people who agree with your every view.

[BDBoop]

Carrying a fetus is in fact the raison d'etre for having a uterus in the first place. Having a uterus in one's body is hardly a reason to justify killing the very thing it exists to support.

That logic seems to go hand-in-hand with "and therefore, we should only be having sex in order to conceive."

[jimnyc]

OK Jim,

Go talk to the people who agree with your every view.

I certainly wouldn't want to debate something with people who only agree with me. But when someone has no debate, and says "poor men" and then starts into insulting lists ending with "you're just whining" - it's obvious they have little desire to debate and/or discuss the actual issue. Sometimes it's cool to get down in the mud with you and trade jabs, other times it's good to just leave you there oinking all by your lonesome.

[Wind Song]

The issue is CHOICE. It used to not be a choice for a woman. Now it is.

[BDBoop]

Both the man and woman had/have a responsibility when having sex. Just purely having an organ shouldn't negate what a man wants. A man can lose his child if the woman says so. IMO, the time to sort out who wants what, who is responsible for what, and what both want - is before having sex, or in a manner that could lead to pregnancy.

I know MANY guys who have had wives/girlfriends sneak off and get abortions without even discussing it with the man. Legal, but quite disgusting in my opinion.

Did nobody question why she felt she had to "sneak off" and do that?

[jimnyc]

That logic seems to go hand-in-hand with "and therefore, we should only be having sex in order to conceive."

Not really, the way the bodies line up could be so that people can have sex to have children, or simply for enjoyment. On the flip side, I DON'T think a uterus is mean to be enjoyed via abortions.

[Wind Song]

I certainly wouldn't want to debate something with people who only agree with me. But when someone has no debate, and says "poor men" and then starts into insulting lists ending with "you're just whining" - it's obvious they have little desire to debate and/or discuss the actual issue. Sometimes it's cool to get down in the mud with you and trade jabs, other times it's good to just leave you there oinking all by your lonesome.


Fine. YOu don't want to discuss this issue with me? Don't.

[jimnyc]

Did nobody question why she felt she had to "sneak off" and do that?

Many times, and usually because they're afraid their significant other would want the baby, while they don't want the responsibility for 18 years.

[Wind Song]

Did nobody question why she felt she had to "sneak off" and do that?


Perhaps she didn't want to have a baby with a man she doesn't love? Does the man get to force her to bear HIS child? Whose child is it?

[Nukeman]

I've been here I wanna say 20 minutes so please don't tell me I'm a mind-reader.so you think YOU need to be a mind reader to KNOW basic information, you jumped into the thread with a slant and got called on it now your a victim that isnt a mind reader!!!! WOW just WOW!!!

COMMON SENSE would dictate that YOU know exactly what I (or any other) was saying, so for you to say what you did is disingenuous at best and STUPID at worst... Which is it????

[BDBoop]

Not really, the way the bodies line up could be so that people can have sex to have children, or simply for enjoyment. On the flip side, I DON'T think a uterus is mean to be enjoyed via abortions.

Okay, who's the clown that told you abortions are enjoyable.

[BDBoop]

so you think YOU need to be a mind reader to KNOW basic information, you jumped into the thread with a slant and got called on it now your a victim that isnt a mind reader!!!! WOW just WOW!!!

COMMON SENSE would dictate that YOU know exactly what I (or any other) was saying, so for you to say what you did is disingenuous at best and STUPID at worst... Which is it????

Yup! And I'm the only one with a slant, amirite?!

[Wind Song]

Okay, who's the clown that told you abortions are enjoyable.


or giving birth for that matter...

[jimnyc]

Okay, who's the clown that told you abortions are enjoyable.

Perhaps the women out there that use it as a form of "birth control"? I would have thought condoms, abstinence or just pulling out to be easier, but some women demand over and over and over and over to continue with abortions.

[BDBoop]

or giving birth for that matter...

Or pregnancy ...

[BDBoop]

Perhaps the women out there that use it as a form of "birth control"? I would have thought condoms, abstinence or just pulling out to be easier, but some women demand over and over and over and over to continue with abortions.

Well, I can't speak for them, but it's still 'their body, their business.'

[Wind Song]

Perhaps the women out there that use it as a form of "birth control"? I would have thought condoms, abstinence or just pulling out to be easier, but some women demand over and over and over and over to continue with abortions.


You get the woman pregnant, she decides with no help from you. Your condom broke, you pulled out and left your sperm behind, you had to have her.

[jimnyc]

Well, I can't speak for them, but it's still 'their body, their business.'

Which goes back to my original point, which is that it IS their body and IS their right - understood. But for women to deny their significant other any way at all, in either direction, is not only wrong, but shows that so many women out there are simply fucked in the head.

[jimnyc]

You get the woman pregnant, she decides with no help from you. Your condom broke, you pulled out and left your sperm behind, you had to have her.

Shut up you fucking retard. The ONLY thing I would ever give a skank like you is a pearl necklace across the face and leave you $2 on the way out the door.:lol:

[Wind Song]

Which goes back to my original point, which is that it IS their body and IS their right - understood. But for women to deny their significant other any way at all, in either direction, is not only wrong, but shows that so many women out there are simply fucked in the head.

First of all, you assume ALL women who get pregnant do so with SO's. Plenty of women AND men sleep around and have one night stands. A one night stand is not entitled to determine what a woman does with the rest of her life.

[Wind Song]

Shut up you fucking retard. The ONLY thing I would ever give a skank like you is a pearl necklace across the face and leave you $2 on the way out the door.:lol:


Hi Jim,

Are you the guy who told me my posting style was too aggressive?

That's you with all the names, isn't it?

I'm a married woman, not a "skank", a "fucking retard" or anything else. You don't need to leave me $2 for fucking you because I never would.

You completely disappoint me Jim. I've told TWO friends this is a good board and you display the opposite.

[BDBoop]

Which goes back to my original point, which is that it IS their body and IS their right - understood. But for women to deny their significant other any way at all, in either direction, is not only wrong, but shows that so many women out there are simply fucked in the head.

Whoa, gracious. Look at the time. Gotta go.

Great board. Norly.

[BDBoop]

Hi Jim,

Are you the guy who told me my posting style was too aggressive?

That's you with all the names, isn't it?

I'm a married woman, not a "skank", a "fucking retard" or anything else. You don't need to leave me $2 for fucking you because I never would.

You completely disappoint me Jim. I've told TWO friends this is a good board and you display the opposite.

Yeah, I was just wondering what the hell you were smoking. No hard feelings.

[Wind Song]

Whoa, gracious. Look at the time. Gotta go.

Great board. Norly.


He's the owner. Sorry. He acts like a jerk.

[Wind Song]

Yeah, I was just wondering what the hell you were smoking. No hard feelings.

I bought the line of crap he gave me the other night. I thought he was sincere.

[BDBoop]

He's the owner. Sorry. He acts like a jerk.

Acts like?

[Wind Song]

Acts like?


He can be OK, at times. What do you expect? He's Gunny's brother.

[Trigg]

Since there are a few people here who don't know me I'm going to state that I have 4 kids.

I LOVED being pregnant and didn't mind the births.

Here is where I'm going to agree with almost everyone here.

I agree with Jim, it's unfair that women can go and get an abortion when the father wants to keep the child, especially if they are in a committed relationship. I also think that if a women chooses to have a child. she shouldn't be able to stick the father with payments when he was FOR an abortion. Women shouldn't be able to have it both ways.

I am actually pro-choice, especially when it comes to rape and incest, however I don't think abortion should be used as birth control (planned parenthood gives it out for free and condoms are cheap) and abortion should only be legal in the first trimester. After that a child is viable and can survive outside the womb, especially with the medical advances that we enjoy today.

[jimnyc]

He's Gunny's brother.

Yeah, I don't think so.

Funny how "women" suddenly don't like you anymore when you start professing that a man should have more rights when it comes to life that was created by both the woman and the man.

[tailfins]

I bought the line of crap he gave me the other night. I thought he was sincere.

It doesn't matter. You underestimate the power of ignoring and/or ridiculing. If it bothers you, ignore. If it doesn't bother you, grab the popcorn and have a good laugh when others beclown themselves.

[BDBoop]

He can be OK, at times. What do you expect? He's Gunny's brother.

:laugh2:

[Wind Song]

Yeah, I don't think so.

Funny how "women" suddenly don't like you anymore when you start professing that a man should have more rights when it comes to life that was created by both the woman and the man.

Funny, how men want MORE rights than the women with the wombs. Funny, how men want to tell the woman the decision she should make.

[Wind Song]

:laugh2:

He's not at his best today.

[jimnyc]

Funny, how men want MORE rights than the women with the wombs. Funny, how men want to tell the woman the decision she should make.

Answer this question honestly, please, or I'm done with you today....

PLEASE SHOW ME WHERE I STATED THAT MEN WANT MORE RIGHTS THAN WOMEN WITH THE WOMBS. Please, and I am dead serious - PLEASE show me where I said this. Or for that fact, ANY man in this thread. WHERE is this being said?

[Wind Song]

It doesn't matter. You underestimate the power of ignoring and/or ridiculing. If it bothers you, ignore. If it doesn't bother you, grab the popcorn and have a good laugh when others beclown themselves.


It hurts my feelings. I took people advice and really thought about their feedback of my posting style. I decided I wanted to post here.

I'm not staying around to be Jim's personal pin cushion.

[Trigg]

Funny, how men want MORE rights than the women with the wombs. Funny, how men want to tell the woman the decision she should make.

if the man and the woman are in a committed relationship why shouldn't the man have a say one way or the other?

I have to agree with Jimmy here. Women want all the power. If a women gets pregnant and doesn't want it she has an abortion. If a women gets pregnant and the man doesn't want it, he has to pay.

Jim isn't saying men want MORE rights than women, he's saying he wants the laws to make sense.

[tailfins]

Funny, how men want MORE rights than the women with the wombs. Funny, how men want to tell the woman the decision she should make.

Decent people of any gender or combination thereof don't want their children murdered. Anyone responsible for an abortion is a scumbag. If I had my way, paying for, performing or presenting oneself for an abortion would get a 30 year mandatory minimum.

[Wind Song]

Answer this question honestly, please, or I'm done with you today....

PLEASE SHOW ME WHERE I STATED THAT MEN WANT MORE RIGHTS THAN WOMEN WITH THE WOMBS. Please, and I am dead serious - PLEASE show me where I said this. Or for that fact, ANY man in this thread. WHERE is this being said?


You think that men should ALWAYS be consulted about a woman's decision to terminate or carry a pregnancy. I say no. Not all men are owed that amount of involvement or respect. There are women who want to give birth and know their partners want them to abort.

Men don't get the full equal treatment yet. They haven't always earned it.

[Trigg]

you think that men should always be consulted about a woman's decision to terminate or carry a pregnancy. I say no. Not all men are owed that amount of involvement or respect.


where did he say that???????


he has stated repeatedly about the hyporacy of the laws, mandating that the men have to pay for a child they don't want, but have NO say when they WANT a child.

[Wind Song]

Decent people of any gender or combination thereof don't want their children murdered. Anyone responsible for an abortion is a scumbag.


I don't agree with your very harsh view of women who terminate their pregnancies. I wouldn't do it myself, nor would I advise any other woman to do it if asked, but I feel it isn't MY decision what happens in some other woman's body and life.

I am spiritually against abortion but I am politically pro-choice.

I can't stand being around judging people who call anyone who terminates a pregnancy a "scumbag".

[Wind Song]

if the man and the woman are in a committed relationship why shouldn't the man have a say one way or the other?

I have to agree with Jimmy here. Women want all the power. If a women gets pregnant and doesn't want it she has an abortion. If a women gets pregnant and the man doesn't want it, he has to pay.

Jim isn't saying men want MORE rights than women, he's saying he wants the laws to make sense.



Why shouldn't the man have a say? I'd prefer he did have a say, especially if they are in a committed relationship. Men want more rights than women. They want to tell the woman what her decision should be. That's wrong.

Making the decision together is one thing. Telling the woman she MUST have the baby no matter what she feels is right for her is wrong.

[jimnyc]

I am going to publicly apologize to WS. As nutty as I think she is, the vile comments were unwarranted.

But nutty is nutty. WS - just as you can't discuss things with people who call your names, or even refer to others as names - I can't discuss things with people who just toss men and their feelings and rights, or lack thereof, completely aside as if we were no different than a sex toy that did the trick and now you can discard us. I should have just told you that I thought you were a flipping idiot instead of resorting to the vulgarity.

[Wind Song]

where did he say that???????


he has stated repeatedly about the hyporacy of the laws, mandating that the men have to pay for a child they don't want, but have NO say when they WANT a child.


Men can either help pay for the abortion or pay for the support of the child until the child is an adult, and hopefully co-parent. But men don't get the right to tell the woman what she MUST do.

It's her womb, not his. He doesn't own her.

[jimnyc]

Men want more rights than women. They want to tell the woman what her decision should be. That's wrong.

I've advocated equal rights for men, that both should have a say, that they should make a mutual decision... All things along those lines. WHO is saying anywhere that men want to be the sole deciders and tell women what to do?

[Wind Song]

I am going to publicly apologize to WS. As nutty as I think she is, the vile comments were unwarranted.

But nutty is nutty. WS - just as you can't discuss things with people who call your names, or even refer to others as names - I can't discuss things with people who just toss men and their feelings and rights, or lack thereof, completely aside as if we were no different than a sex toy that did the trick and now you can discard us. I should have just told you that I thought you were a flipping idiot instead of resorting to the vulgarity.


Thanks for the non-apology apology. You're not the slightest bit sorry you hurt me.

[jimnyc]

Men can either help pay for the abortion or pay for the support of the child until the child is an adult, and hopefully co-parent. But men don't get the right to tell the woman what she MUST do.

It's her womb, not his. He doesn't own her.

So men are like banks, but can possibly be fathers, but if not a father, we should still foot the bill?

[jimnyc]

Thanks for the non-apology apology.

I apologized for what was necessary to apologize for.

[Wind Song]

So men are like banks, but can possibly be fathers, but if not a father, we should still foot the bill?

Look, I think it's great that some men take parenting seriously.

[jimnyc]

Thanks for the non-apology apology. You're not the slightest bit sorry you hurt me.

Then WHY would I apologize? You sent me a PM and I replied there. I could have left it at that. I apologized for where I most certainly did go over the line. But don't expect me to kiss ass and invite you over for Sunday dinner.

[Wind Song]

I apologized for what was necessary to apologize for.

You are completely clueless. I can't talk to you anymore today.

[jimnyc]

Look, I think it's great that some men take parenting seriously.

And I think it's great that so many men take it seriously too. I have a soon to be 12yr old son. I couldn't imagine life without him.

I couldn't imagine my wife having told me I had no say in the matter, to open up my wallet and brace myself for her decision.

[Wind Song]

We're done.

[jimnyc]

You are completely clueless. I can't talk to you anymore today.

Whatever. Did you expect me to send a dozen roses with my apology? It's really quite simple. I have stated some things to you today. One of my posts was way out of line, and I apologized for stooping to such a level. If you accept it, great, if not, your choice. I don't need an acceptance to know my words were wrong and to know it was the right thing to do in apologizing.

[tailfins]

I've advocated equal rights for men, that both should have a say, that they should make a mutual decision... All things along those lines. WHO is saying anywhere that men want to be the sole deciders and tell women what to do?

Neither should have a say. Make a mutual decision to murder their children? If they do, may God judge them harshly. And if possible, the law as well.


Whatever. Did you expect me to send a dozen roses with my apology?

That would be sexual harassment.

[jimnyc]

We're done.

Oh. No. I'm gonna surely lose sleep tonight!

Bring up any perceived rights a man should have and WS flies away! Toodles!

[Wind Song]

Whatever. Did you expect me to send a dozen roses with my apology? It's really quite simple. I have stated some things to you today. One of my posts was way out of line, and I apologized for stooping to such a level. If you accept it, great, if not, your choice. I don't need an acceptance to know my words were wrong and to know it was the right thing to do in apologizing.


Yes. Send some roses.

[jimnyc]

Neither should have a say. Make a mutual decision to murder their children? If they do, may God judge them harshly. And if possible, the law as well.

Well, we agree there too, but her convoluted brain can't take too many subjects at once. I was just stating that 'whatever' decision is made, "I" think it should be done together, mutually and/or with respect to the significant other.

[Wind Song]

Holly Near--Singing for Our Lives--For Choice:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=johabhyURIw&feature=related

[jimnyc]

Yes. Send some roses.

Ok, with love:

http://lordofdesign.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/blackroses.jpg

[tailfins]

We're done.

http://www.kegworks.com/images/blogpost/steak.jpg

[Wind Song]

Well, we agree there too, but her convoluted brain can't take too many subjects at once. I was just stating that 'whatever' decision is made, "I" think it should be done together, mutually and/or with respect to the significant other.

Some men don't deserve that respect. They just aren't that involved.

[jimnyc]

Some men don't deserve that respect. They just aren't that involved.

Some women don't deserve that respect. They just aren't that involved.

Look, it truly sucks that by God's design the woman is the carrier of the baby. But it still takes 2 to have a baby, takes 2 to be parents, takes 2 to make it right... I've seen just as many irresponsible and disrespectful women. You don't scoff at all men's potential rights because of a few. Not all men should be penalized.

[Trigg]

Why shouldn't the man have a say? I'd prefer he did have a say, especially if they are in a committed relationship. Men want more rights than women. They want to tell the woman what her decision should be. That's wrong.

Making the decision together is one thing. Telling the woman she MUST have the baby no matter what she feels is right for her is wrong.

What man here has said that?????? I've read this entire thread and NO WHERE does anyone advocate that a man have more rights than a women.




Men can either help pay for the abortion or pay for the support of the child until the child is an adult, and hopefully co-parent. But men don't get the right to tell the woman what she MUST do.

It's her womb, not his. He doesn't own her.

I don't believe ANYONE, Jim included, has said that.

People have pointed out the fairness of the law.

Jim has questioned repeatedly WHY women want all the power, especially in committed relationships. As the law stands a women can choose. without discussion. to carry a pregnancy and DEMAND the man pay for a child he does not want. Do you advocate that a women can "tell a man what he MUST do" in regards to an unwanted pregnancy??

[Wind Song]

Some women don't deserve that respect. They just aren't that involved.

Look, it truly sucks that by God's design the woman is the carrier of the baby. But it still takes 2 to have a baby, takes 2 to be parents, takes 2 to make it right... I've seen just as many irresponsible and disrespectful women. You don't scoff at all men's potential rights because of a few. Not all men should be penalized.

If a woman doesn't respect the "sperm" rights of her BF and elects to terminate her pregnancy without informing him, so what? Are you saying some casual fling deserves to be involved in her decision? I don't.

And YOU don't get to be involved in other people's intimate business.

[Wind Song]

What man here has said that?????? I've read this entire thread and NO WHERE does anyone advocate that a man have more rights than a women.





I don't believe ANYONE, Jim included, has said that.

People have pointed out the fairness of the law.

Jim has questioned repeatedly WHY women want all the power, especially in committed relationships. As the law stands a women can choose. without discussion. to carry a pregnancy and DEMAND the man pay for a child he does not want. Do you advocate that a women can "tell a man what he MUST do" in regards to an unwanted pregnancy??

It's up to the woman, like it or not. It's her decision. Hopefully, she decides with her lover, her doctor and her religious leader.

Yes, the man needs to pay for the kid whether he likes it or not. So much easier for him to get a vasectomy.

[jimnyc]

If a woman doesn't respect the "sperm" rights of her BF and elects to terminate her pregnancy without informing him, so what? Are you saying some casual fling deserves to be involved in her decision? I don't.

And YOU don't get to be involved in other people's intimate business.

I think that when life is created, that BOTH should have a say and/or discuss what is the best course of action, whether a fling or in a marriage. The life that was created is no less valuable because it was conceived during a fling.

[tailfins]

It's up to the woman, like it or not. It's her decision. Hopefully, she decides with her lover, her doctor and her religious leader.

Yes, the man needs to pay for the kid whether he likes it or not. So much easier for him to get a vasectomy.

Or easier still not to fraternize with a feminist. Feminists are useful for polishing my snob skills.

[Trigg]

It's up to the woman, like it or not. It's her decision. Hopefully, she decides with her lover, her doctor and her religious leader.

Yes, the man needs to pay for the kid whether he likes it or not. So much easier for him to get a vasectomy.


You don't see the hypocracy in that statment at all do you.

You go on for 8 pages about how men shouldn't be able to dictate to a women and MAKE her do things, and then this comes out of your mouth.
:lame2:

If a man does not want the child he has to pay, if a women doesn't want the child the man has no say. Don't you understand how utterly unfair that statement is? If a women wants to take responsibility for her body, than she can't have her cake and eat it to.


And no a vasectomy isn't the easy way. A tubal is done through the belly button in a Dr's office easy peasy or glue into the uterus during a regular pelvic exam.

[jimnyc]

You don't see the hypocracy in that statment at all do you.

You go on for 8 pages about how men shouldn't be able to dictate to a women and MAKE her do things, and then this comes out of your mouth.
:lame2:

If a man does not want the child he has to pay, if a women doesn't want the child the man has no say. Don't you understand how utterly unfair that statement is? If a women wants to take responsibility for her body, than she can't have her cake and eat it to.


And no a vasectomy isn't the easy way. A tubal is done through the belly button in a Dr's office easy peasy or glue into the uterus during a regular pelvic exam.

So long as the women can do as she pleases, WS doesn't care in the slightest bit for any concerns or rights a man might have. You know it, I know it and even she knows it. Oh, unless of course she feels the man needs to pay for the women to do as she pleases, she agrees the man has the right to pay up!

[Wind Song]

I think that when life is created, that BOTH should have a say and/or discuss what is the best course of action, whether a fling or in a marriage. The life that was created is no less valuable because it was conceived during a fling.

Are you pro-choice or not?

I get the impression, not. You think all women should carry all pregnancies to term?

Frankly, if more women and men discussed the possibility of pregnancy before fucking, we'd have far less unwanted pregnancies.

[Wind Song]

So long as the women can do as she pleases, WS doesn't care in the slightest bit for any concerns or rights a man might have. You know it, I know it and even she knows it. Oh, unless of course she feels the man needs to pay for the women to do as she pleases, she agrees the man has the right to pay up!

I don't care about men's rights to what goes on in a woman's body. If men want to be taken seriously, they should talk about contraception long before they get their rocks off.

Men crack me up. They can't stand to come second when a decision is to be made. They want to TELL the woman what HER DECISION should be.

[Trigg]

Are you pro-choice or not?

I get the impression, not. You think all women should carry all pregnancies to term?

Frankly, if more women and men discussed the possibility of pregnancy before fucking, we'd have far less unwanted pregnancies.


HE'S PRO FAIRNESS


You're hypocracy knows no bounds. Screw the guy, is your only response to this thread.

A guy doesn't want a pregnancy? SCREW HIM. PAY FOR IT

A women doesn't want a pregnancy and he does? SCREW HIM HE GETS NO SAY

A woman has the right to choose, but she shouldn't have the right to demand a man pay for a child he doesn't want.

[tailfins]

I don't care about men's rights to what goes on in a woman's body. If men want to be taken seriously, they should talk about contraception long before they get their rocks off.

Men crack me up. They can't stand to come second when a decision is to be made. They want to TELL the woman what HER DECISION should be.

Once the pregnancy occurs neither man nor woman matter: It all about the child!

[Wind Song]

HE'S PRO FAIRNESS


You're hypocracy knows no bounds. Screw the guy, is your only response to this thread.

A guy doesn't want a pregnancy? SCREW HIM. PAY FOR IT

A women doesn't want a pregnancy and he does? SCREW HIM HE GETS NO SAY

A woman has the right to choose, but she shouldn't have the right to demand a man pay for a child he doesn't want.

The guy is the one doing the screwing. He want to FORCE the woman to have the child if that's HIS decision or terminate if that's HIS decision,(he wants to go deadbeat).

A woman has a right to choose and all the complaining in the world isn't gonna change.

If men want to be conscious loving partners they better start on the first date.

[Trigg]

I don't care about men's rights to what goes on in a woman's body. If men want to be taken seriously, they should talk about contraception long before they get their rocks off.

Men crack me up. They can't stand to come second when a decision is to be made. They want to TELL the woman what HER DECISION should be.

so women are strong and assertive but can't find the time to talk about contraception before spreading their legs?????

YOu are the only one that wants to "TELL SOMEONE WHAT THEIR DECISION SHOULD BE".

[Wind Song]

Once the pregnancy occurs neither man nor woman matter: It all about the child!

Wrong. It's about whether to continue or terminate the pregnancy. It still about a woman's decision.

[Wind Song]

Sperm are people too!

[Trigg]

The guy is the one doing the screwing. He want to FORCE the woman to have the child if that's HIS decision or terminate if that's HIS decision,(he wants to go deadbeat).

A woman has a right to choose and all the complaining in the world isn't gonna change.

If men want to be conscious loving partners they better start on the first date.

Well honey I guess I'm lucky, because everytime I've gotten screwed their have been two people involved.

No one but you is saying anyone should be FORCED. You want a man to PAY PAY PAY.

All anyone else is saying is that if a woman wants a child and the man doesn't than it should be the woman's responsibility to pay for the child.

[Trigg]

Wrong. It's about whether to continue or terminate the pregnancy. It still about a woman's decision.




YOU SAID a man has no choice. If a women decides to continue the pregnancy he has to PAY.


a woman shouldn't be able to have it both ways. THAT IS ALL JIM OR I AM SAYING.

[tailfins]

Wrong. It's about whether to continue or terminate the pregnancy. It still about a woman's decision.

Except men can make a decision not to fraternize with or even be civil to women who would have an abortion. It would be preferable to be in the company of the drunk sleeping at the subway entrance. I teach my kids the same. Lonely feminists make me smile.

[jimnyc]

Are you pro-choice or not?

I get the impression, not. You think all women should carry all pregnancies to term?

Frankly, if more women and men discussed the possibility of pregnancy before fucking, we'd have far less unwanted pregnancies.

All women should carry to term? I've said NOTHING about all in either direction, only that I thought all parties involved should have a say/right in the matter. I NEVER said a man should be able to tell a woman what to do, no matter how many times you repeat your lie.


I don't care about men's rights to what goes on in a woman's body. If men want to be taken seriously, they should talk about contraception long before they get their rocks off.

Men crack me up. They can't stand to come second when a decision is to be made. They want to TELL the woman what HER DECISION should be.

I don't know who "they" are, but you're repeating that same lie again.

As for the bold, don't you think women carry any personal responsibility when deciding to be sexually active? Or is it not necessary for her, as she can decide what she wants to do when and if she gets pregnant?

[Wind Song]

Well honey I guess I'm lucky, because everytime I've gotten screwed their have been two people involved.

No one but you is saying anyone should be FORCED. You want a man to PAY PAY PAY.

All anyone else is saying is that if a woman wants a child and the man doesn't than it should be the woman's responsibility to pay for the child.

If the woman wants to carry the pregnancy to term, the man has to pay. That's the law. If the woman wants to terminate the pregnancy, either of them, or both of them can pay for the procedure.

[Trigg]

As for the bold, don't you think women carry any personal responsibility when deciding to be sexually active? Or is it not necessary for her, as she can decide what she wants to do when and if she gets pregnant?


nope obviously she thinks us poor simpleminded women can't keep our legs together long enough to go to the Dr's and get on the pill, or demand a rubber be used.

We certainly aren't able to use the phone long enough to make an appointment to get a tubal.

[jimnyc]

If the woman wants to carry the pregnancy to term, the man has to pay. That's the law. If the woman wants to terminate the pregnancy, either of them or both of them can pay.

How about if a man is going to pay anyway if she carries to term, but she wants an abortion which shows she doesn't want the child - the man says tough shit, pay for the abortion yourself. Now she has no recourse, other than have the kid, which she already displayed she doesn't want. Let her have her abortion and the bill associated with it.

[Wind Song]

All women should carry to term? I've said NOTHING about all in either direction, only that I thought all parties involved should have a say/right in the matter. I NEVER said a man should be able to tell a woman what to do, no matter how many times you repeat your lie.



I don't know who "they" are, but you're repeating that same lie again.

As for the bold, don't you think women carry any personal responsibility when deciding to be sexually active? Or is it not necessary for her, as she can decide what she wants to do when and if she gets pregnant?

You can't see why it may not be in the woman's best interest to disclose her pregnancy to the man? All parties do NOT deserve a say in the matter.

How many women did you fuck and not ask about contraception?

[Trigg]

If the woman wants to carry the pregnancy to term, the man has to pay. That's the law. If the woman wants to terminate the pregnancy, either of them, or both of them can pay for the procedure.


8 pages and THAT'S THE FUCKING ARGUMENT.

holy shit this is not worth my time


I know what the law says, and obviously YOU agree with it.

What I've been saying is it isn't fair. If a woman wants to CHOOSE to have a pregnancy and the man doesn't. The man SHOULD NOT HAVE TO PAY.

[fj1200]

Because we haven't assigned it status as a "person" owed rights.

I know what the current legal status is, the question goes to why you think a fetus is not granted the same right of life that the rest of us are. Why do you think the fetus as property argument is greater than the fetus being granted its own right of life argument?

[jimnyc]

You can't see why it may not be in the woman's best interest to disclose her pregnancy to the man? All parties do NOT deserve a say in the matter.

How many women did you fuck and not ask about contraception?

No say no pay!

[Wind Song]

How about if a man is going to pay anyway if she carries to term, but she wants an abortion which shows she doesn't want the child - the man says tough shit, pay for the abortion yourself. Now she has no recourse, other than have the kid, which she already displayed she doesn't want. Let her have her abortion and the bill associated with it.

If the man is against abortion I don't think he should pay for it. These are conversations women and men should be having before getting into bed. Yes, how often they don't discuss these things.

You want to punish the woman who chooses to terminate the pregnancy. Make her pay for it.

Well, fuck that. He is 50% responsible for knocking her up.

[jimnyc]

You want to punish the woman who chooses to terminate the pregnancy. Make her pay for it.

Well, fuck that. He is 50% responsible for knocking her up.

She chooses - she pays. Not a damned thing she can do if she chooses to terminate and he doesn't want to pay.

Oh, and the hypocrisy in this post makes me want to vomit.

[fj1200]

That logic seems to go hand-in-hand with "and therefore, we should only be having sex in order to conceive."

Again, who here made that argument?


The issue is CHOICE. It used to not be a choice for a woman. Now it is.

No it's not, the issue is much more fundamental than that.

[Wind Song]

YOU SAID a man has no choice. If a women decides to continue the pregnancy he has to PAY.


a woman shouldn't be able to have it both ways. THAT IS ALL JIM OR I AM SAYING.


A woman can have it any way she likes. She can choose to terminate the pregnancy or she can carry the pregnancy to term.

[Wind Song]

She chooses - she pays. Not a damned thing she can do if she chooses to terminate and he doesn't want to pay.

Oh, and the hypocrisy in this post makes me want to vomit.


You don't like it that it's the woman's choice, ultimately.

[Wind Song]

No say no pay!


No say, I'll bet.

[jimnyc]

A woman can have it any way she likes. She can choose to terminate the pregnancy or she can carry the pregnancy to term.


You don't like it that it's the woman's choice, ultimately.


No say, I'll bet.

And this is why women like that will end up paying for their own abortions. No self respecting man that wants their child to live is going to help pay for an abortion. And that's too bad on her, let her deal with her own decisions and consequences that come with them. And women that go into a pregnancy with that attitude, that it's all about them and nothing about the man, then I hope those are the women that get met with deadbeat dads or dads not wanting to be in the picture. Serves them right.

[Wind Song]

And this is why women like that will end up paying for their own abortions. No self respecting man that wants their child to live is going to help pay for an abortion. And that's too bad on her, let her deal with her own decisions and consequences that come with them. And women that go into a pregnancy with that attitude, that it's all about them and nothing about the man, then I hope those are the women that get met with deadbeat dads or dads not wanting to be in the picture. Serves them right.

Plenty of men favor the pregnancy terminated, and should share in abortion costs. If men suppport the pregnancy and so does the women then they need to decide if they can raise the child together or not. The man is required to pay child suppot.

[jimnyc]

Plenty of men favor the pregnancy terminated, and should share in abortion costs. If men suppport the pregnancy and so does the women then they need to decide if they can raise the child together or not. The man is required to pay child suppot.

Keep in mind, it's not ALWAYS the man. There are many times where it's necessary for the woman to pay child support. If a woman did so simply to make the man pay, or to make money, I would hope the man involved would fight for full on custody, and in many of those cases he would then have the child and the woman left paying for the support.

[DragonStryk72]

^I don't disagree with you but we also don't know what the class was. That would have some bearing IMO.

Regardless, telling a person their opinion is an incorrect teaching tool, whether pro or anti-whatever. The essay question was pretty clearly loaded, even if we were talking about a Catholic school.

[Kathianne]

Now, I am pro-life, but yeah, this essay is horrible. I actually went to Catholic school growing up, and I'm thankful to say that they never felt a need to pull this sort of crap on us. Certainly, they were pro-Jesus, but they never let it get in the way of teaching, and letting us come to our own understanding of the world.

Both sides of the fence pull this though, and that's what sucks. Any time where you are telling someone what their personal opinion is supposed to be, and lay out how they're supposed to answer in support of that opinion, you've stopped teaching and start proselytizing, whatever belief it might be that you're putting out.

I have to agree based upon my dealings with Catholic schools, which number 8. They teach Catholic positions, they do not teach birth control or about Planned Parenthood. They state, "The Church teaches that birth control is not to be used because..." I've had kids ask me if I'd used birth control, my response, "I'm here to teach you what the Church's teachings are, not my personal life." It's also pointed out that abortion is killing, birth control is not.

[fj1200]

If a woman doesn't respect the "sperm" rights of her BF and elects to terminate her pregnancy without informing him, so what? Are you saying some casual fling deserves to be involved in her decision? I don't.

Why do you always have to devalue the entirety of the subject into the "casual flings" that happen? If an abortion were not so easy to have do you think that the potential parents might take more responsibility for their actions?

[Abbey Marie]

She chooses - she pays. Not a damned thing she can do if she chooses to terminate and he doesn't want to pay.

Oh, and the hypocrisy in this post makes me want to vomit.

I wonder if this too will change under Obamacare. In a sense we taxpayers are all already paying for funded abortions, aren't we?

[Wind Song]

And this is why women like that will end up paying for their own abortions. No self respecting man that wants their child to live is going to help pay for an abortion. And that's too bad on her, let her deal with her own decisions and consequences that come with them. And women that go into a pregnancy with that attitude, that it's all about them and nothing about the man, then I hope those are the women that get met with deadbeat dads or dads not wanting to be in the picture. Serves them right.

Most women end up paying for their own procedures. You act as if men as complete innocents all the time. They aren't. There are good and bad apples.

[Wind Song]

Why do you always have to devalue the entirety of the subject into the "casual flings" that happen? If an abortion were not so easy to have do you think that the potential parents might take more responsibility for their actions?

You want to blame me for abortions. I wouldn't have one, I wouldn't advise somene to have one. I wouldn't judge and condemn someone who had one. It's their lives. Since the procedure is legal at least it can save the life of the pregnant woman, they don't both have to die.

[Wind Song]

Why do you always have to devalue the entirety of the subject into the "casual flings" that happen? If an abortion were not so easy to have do you think that the potential parents might take more responsibility for their actions?


It isn't only people in committed relationships who become pregnant.

[Noir]

I was with ya Jim, genuinely with ya, and then...


Shut up you fucking retard. The ONLY thing I would ever give a skank like you is a pearl necklace across the face and leave you $2 on the way out the door.:lol:

|:

[Wind Song]

I was with ya Jim, genuinely with ya, and then...



|:

Thank you. I'm not a "fucking retard", "two dollar whore", or "skank". He pulled this shit right in front of the new posters I invited here.

[Noir]

As for this whole 'men paying for children they don't want', tough titty.

It all about responsibility, and like at the start of the thread when it was being argued that woman must accept the possibility of getting pregnant when having sex, men must do the same. If a man choses to have sex with a woman then whether or not he "wants" a child, he should accept the responsibly (at least financially, though hopefully emotionally too) of caring for a child that may result.

[Wind Song]

Men and women need to have the "do you want to get pregnant or not" conversation before they have sex.

[Noir]

Men and women need to have the "do you want to get pregnant or not" conversation before they have sex.

Yes, personally I like to drop it in during foreplay - after we've sorted out the days recycling and brushed our teeth, but before i strip down to my socks and suspenders.

[Wind Song]

Yes, personally I like to drop it in during foreplay - after we've sorted out the days recycling and brushed our teeth, but before i strip down to my socks and suspenders.

What a romantic!

[Noir]

What a romantic!

Psssst, it was a joke ^,^

[Wind Song]

Psssst, it was a joke ^,^


I was praising you. I think it's a challenge to have that kind of intimate conversation before you have sex. When you can do it, it's wonderful.

[fj1200]

You want to blame me for abortions. I wouldn't have one, I wouldn't advise somene to have one. I wouldn't judge and condemn someone who had one. It's their lives. Since the procedure is legal at least it can save the life of the pregnant woman, they don't both have to die.

Please point out where I want to blame you for abortions. :waits:


It isn't only people in committed relationships who become pregnant.

As Noir will say, "responsibility." Why are you continuing to avoid the core issue?


It all about responsibility, and like at the start of the thread when it was being argued that woman must accept the possibility of getting pregnant when having sex, men must do the same. If a man choses to have sex with a woman then whether or not he "wants" a child, he should accept the responsibly (at least financially, though hopefully emotionally too) of caring for a child that may result.

Yup.

[Wind Song]

Please point out where I want to blame you for abortions. :waits:



As Noir will say, "responsibility." Why are you continuing to avoid the core issue?



Yup.


What do you think the core issue is? Personally, I don't have this problem.

[fj1200]

What do you think the core issue is? Personally, I don't have this problem.

:rolleyes:


... the question goes to why you think a fetus is not granted the same right of life that the rest of us are. Why do you think the fetus as property argument is greater than the fetus being granted its own right of life argument?

[Wind Song]

:rolleyes:


I've never had an unplanned pregnancy. I don't approve of abortions on religious grounds. I am politically pro-choice. It's the law. It's prevented women from dying of unsafe procedures.

Yes, the anti-choice movement is designed to give the fetus, even a fertilized egg, personhood status. Unfortunately, anti-choice people, sometimes are against all forms of contraconception.

[fj1200]

I've never had an unplanned pregnancy. I don't approve of abortions on religious grounds. I am politically pro-choice. It's the law. It's prevented women from dying of unsafe procedures.

I can't imagine the negative karma associated with that position.


Yes, the anti-choice movement is designed to give the fetus, even a fertilized egg, personhood status. Unfortunately, anti-choice people, sometimes are against all forms of contraconception.

You didn't address the issue.

[Wind Song]

I can't imagine the negative karma associated with that position.



You didn't address the issue.

There is no negative karma associated with being pro-choice.

[Abbey Marie]

I've never had an unplanned pregnancy. I don't approve of abortions on religious grounds. I am politically pro-choice. It's the law. It's prevented women from dying of unsafe procedures.

Yes, the anti-choice movement is designed to give the fetus, even a fertilized egg, personhood status. Unfortunately, anti-choice people, sometimes are against all forms of contraconception.

As was slavery, once. And women denied the right to vote or own property. If you truly have religious reasons to be against abortion, you cannot possibly be for it just because it is " the law".

[tailfins]

Yes, the anti-choice movement is designed to give the fetus, even a fertilized egg, personhood status. Unfortunately, anti-choice people, sometimes are against all forms of contraconception.


You should refer to your side as the pro-death movement. Ask abortion survivor Gianna Jessen what choice she was given complete with the "gift" of Cerebral Palsy. Generally it's only the Catholics who oppose contraception. The rest of the pro-life movement doesn't. This fabricated contraception canard actually helped Romney. It allowed a good cop-bad cop comparison with Santorum who Romney defeated. Now Romney is the man who defeated the anti-contraception candidate.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cg_zhEIpTjs

[Wind Song]

You mean the pro-death movement. Ask abortion survivor Gianna Jessen what choice she was given complete with the "gift" of Cerebral Palsy.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cg_zhEIpTjs


Pro-choice is pro-choice.

[fj1200]

Pro-choice is pro-choice.


You didn't address the issue.

Bump. Reciting current law is non-responsive.

[tailfins]

Bump. Reciting current law is non-responsive.

Nonthinking stances require that kind of response. Dimwits exist across the political spectrum.

[Wind Song]

Nonthinking stances require that kind of response. Dimwits exist across the political spectrum.


Name calling, is that your debate strategy?

[jimnyc]

I was with ya Jim, genuinely with ya, and then...



|:


Thank you. I'm not a "fucking retard", "two dollar whore", or "skank". He pulled this shit right in front of the new posters I invited here.


I am going to publicly apologize to WS. As nutty as I think she is, the vile comments were unwarranted.

It doesn't make my comments warranted, but an apology was made already. WS, that's fine, you don't accept it, and you aren't forced to.

[jimnyc]

Please point out where I want to blame you for abortions. :waits:

This is why it's impossible to debate with some people - they continually and habitually just make shit up out of thin air, and then 99% of the time ignore requests to point out where things were said or backup their accusations. This is the way children debate when first learning in 3rd grade.

[Wind Song]

It doesn't make my comments warranted, but an apology was made already. WS, that's fine, you don't accept it, and you aren't forced to.

You apologized for some insults while adding others. Serious debaters don't insult the opposition.

[jimnyc]

You apologized for some insults while adding others.

I apologized for my vile comments, I will not apologize for typical banter. You need not forgive the apology, that's fine. This will be my last response to you and you'll be free of my violence.

[PostmodernProphet]

raise up your children in the path that they should follow and they will not depart from it......

[Wind Song]

I apologized for my vile comments, I will not apologize for typical banter. You need not forgive the apology, that's fine. This will be my last response to you and you'll be free of my violence.

Wonderful. Stop answering my posts altogether. I'm ready to be free of your violence.

[tailfins]

Name calling, is that your debate strategy?

Whatever works.

[Wind Song]

Whatever works.

It doesn't work for me. But if your goal is to not talk to me at all, it's a perfect strategy. Name call all you wish.

[tailfins]

It doesn't work for me. But if your goal is to not talk to me at all, it's a perfect strategy. Name call all you wish.

I already told you that I don't give a $41t one way or the other.

[Wind Song]

I already told you that I don't give a $41t one way or the other.


You're one of the people that told me to take a break. Remember? Don't tell me you don't give a shit.

[tailfins]

You're one of the people that told me to take a break. Remember? Don't tell me you don't give a s**t.

If it makes you happy to take a break, take a break. If it makes you happy not to take one, don't. Like I said: It just doesn't matter to me.

[SassyLady]

I've never had an unplanned pregnancy. I don't approve of abortions on religious grounds. I am politically pro-choice. It's the law. It's prevented women from dying of unsafe procedures.

Yes, the anti-choice movement is designed to give the fetus, even a fertilized egg, personhood status. Unfortunately, anti-choice people, sometimes are against all forms of contraconception.

So, you only support pro-life because it's the law?

[SassyLady]

FOR MODS - I am asking several questions of WindSong based upon only one of her quotes because I've noticed that she will not answer more than one question per post ... so asking more than one question will only get one answer. Please don't combine all my posts or she will probably not answer them. Thanks for your tolerance.

[SassyLady]

I've never had an unplanned pregnancy. I don't approve of abortions on religious grounds. I am politically pro-choice. It's the law. It's prevented women from dying of unsafe procedures.

Yes, the anti-choice movement is designed to give the fetus, even a fertilized egg, personhood status. Unfortunately, anti-choice people, sometimes are against all forms of contraconception.

It's actually the pro-life movement, not the anti-choice movement.

Are you saying that having a choice is morally superior to the creation of life?

[SassyLady]

I've never had an unplanned pregnancy. I don't approve of abortions on religious grounds. I am politically pro-choice. It's the law. It's prevented women from dying of unsafe procedures.

Yes, the anti-choice movement is designed to give the fetus, even a fertilized egg, personhood status. Unfortunately, anti-choice people, sometimes are against all forms of contraconception.

The pro-life movement is not about contraception .... it's about recognizing when life begins.

Unfortunately, the anti-life people, sometimes, are against all forms of personal responsibility. Wouldn't you agree?

[Noir]

raise up your children in the path that they should follow and they will not depart from it......

yeah, who wants people learning objectively, sceptically, and independently? i mean what if they form an opinion that isn't what you think they should have?!!

[Wind Song]

So, you only support pro-life because it's the law?

My position is politically pro-choice, and personally against abortion.

[Wind Song]

The pro-life movement is not about contraception .... it's about recognizing when life begins.

Unfortunately, the anti-life people, sometimes, are against all forms of personal responsibility. Wouldn't you agree?

The "pro-fetal life" movement is not friendly toward women. People's views as to when consciousness is present in a developing fetus vary.

I used to think the "soul" entered the body at the time of birth.

You can't prove sentience in the first three months.

Anti-women's life people want to force women to carry a pregancy to term against her will and her civil rights.

[SassyLady]

My position is politically pro-choice, and personally against abortion.

What a cop out. Do you get any splinters from this stance?

[SassyLady]

The "pro-fetal life" movement is not friendly toward women. People's views as to when consciousness is present in a developing fetus vary.

I used to think the "soul" entered the body at the time of birth.

You can't prove sentience in the first three months.

Anti-women's life people want to force women to carry a pregancy to term against her will and her civil rights.

The pro-choice movement is not friendly to unborn babies.

I think the soul is part of the conception process along with all the other wondrous things that happen during that moment.

Can you prove there isn't sentience in the first second?

Anti-baby people want to disregard anything and everything except their own desires and screw the rights of the unborn baby.

[Wind Song]

What a cop out. Do you get any splinters from this stance?

It's not a cop out. It's the truth of how I feel about the issue. It's a common stance for Buddhists.

[fj1200]

The "pro-fetal life" movement is not friendly toward women. People's views as to when consciousness is present in a developing fetus vary.

I used to think the "soul" entered the body at the time of birth.

An ensoulment argument, haven't heard that one around here in awhile. Why should the state sponsor the termination of a "soul"?


You can't prove sentience in the first three months.

When does sentience occur then?


Anti-women's life people want to force women to carry a pregancy to term against her will and her civil rights.

You sure can come up with new ways to propagandize can't you? Approximately 50% of those cases do involve potential women.

[Wind Song]

An ensoulment argument, haven't heard that one around here in awhile. Why should the state sponsor the termination of a "soul"? Why should the state have anything to do with soul?



When does sentience occur then? I don't know.



You sure can come up with new ways to propagandize can't you? Approximately 50% of those cases do involve potential women.

The state has nothing to do with soul. I don't know when sentience begins, it's a religious belief. Plenty of others are already propagandizing which is why I came up with my new phrases.

[fj1200]

The state has nothing to do with soul. I don't know when sentience begins, it's a religious belief. Plenty of folks already doing thatm which is why I coined the new phrases.

They will do much to cover their stance of denying natural rights I guess. The state determines crime and punishment.

[Wind Song]

They will do much to cover their stance of denying natural rights I guess. The state determines crime and punishment.


Does the woman have any rights according to you? Or is it only the fetal life that matters?

[SassyLady]

Does the woman have any rights according to you? Or is it only the fetal life that matters?

Are you arguing that rights matter more than a life?

[Wind Song]

We're not talking to each other. Remember?

[SassyLady]

We're not talking to each other. Remember?

I never said I wouldn't talk to you ... just that I wouldn't respond to any more of your PMs.

You are the one that said you were not going to read my posts and here you are reading them. Now, who is the LIAR?

[Wind Song]

Whatever you said, SS, I didn't hear it.

I've noticed that some conservatives seem to have a difficult time when some of us have nuanced views about abortion. I'm pro-choice, and personally against abortion.

My feeling is a woman will live a happier life if she makes an unselfish choice to bring life into the world. However, her decision is not about my feelings. It's her body and her conscience.

I would never want to see us return to the days of coat hanger and back alley abortions with women continually dying of the unsafe procedure.

[fj1200]

Does the woman have any rights according to you? Or is it only the fetal life that matters?

Of course she has rights, they are well spelled out. Does she have any responsibility for her actions according to you?

[Wind Song]

Of course she has rights, they are well spelled out. Does she have any responsibility for her actions according to you?


If it were up to me, I'd advise her to carry the pregancy to term, and if she can't parent then put the child up for adoption. But it's not my decision, it's hers. It's her life, her conscience, her karma and her body.

[fj1200]

If it were up to me, I'd advise her to carry the pregancy to term, and if she can't parent then put the child up for adoption. But it's not my decision, it's hers. It's her life, her conscience, her karma and her body.

So no responsibility then.

[Wind Song]

So no responsibility then.

You didn't seem to understand my previous post. Of course she has responsibility. A wiser and happier decision karmically is to make the unselfish decision and bring life into the world.

It's her body and her decision.


What do you want to do with her? Put her in pregnancy prison and MAKE her give birth?

[fj1200]

You didn't seem to understand my previous post. Of course she has responsibility. A wiser and happier decision karmically is to make the unselfish decision and bring life into the world.

It's her body and her decision.


What do you want to do with her? Put her in pregnancy prison and MAKE her give birth?

I understood all of your post and it's non-responsive glory. I would like the states to be able to make the decision per our Federal system.

[Wind Song]

I understood all of your post and it's non-responsive glory. I would like the states to be able to make the decision per our Federal system.

The woman makes the decision. The state decides if she'll have a safe or unsafe procedure.

"un-responsive glory" WTF is that? I answered your posts honestly and responsively.

[fj1200]

The woman makes the decision. The state decides if she'll have a safe or unsafe procedure.

"un-responsive glory" WTF is that? I answered your posts honestly and repetitively.

My common practice interwebinator fixoring of your post would have been more accurate with the verbiage above. ;) You answered with the same answer I've seen ten times before.

So every woman will have the procedure regardless of the law? Doubtful and it also ignores all of the unseen effects of the SC decision.

[PostmodernProphet]

The fetus doesn't have rights, unless the pregnant woman grants them.

and isn't that the problem?....there was a time when slaves didn't have rights unless the slave owner granted them......

[Wind Song]

Very interesting. You place the life of a fertilized egg above that of an adult woman. Pro life movement is pro-FETAL life only.

[Wind Song]

Traditional Buddhism may discourage abortion, but it also discourages imposing rigid moral absolutes. Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche once said, "In the case of an abortion ... if the parents feel remorse they can help by acknowledging it, asking for forgiveness, and performing ardently the purification practice of Vajrasattva. They can also offer lights, and save lives, or help others, or sponsor some humanitarian or spiritual project, dedicating it to the well-being and future enlightenment of the baby's consciousness."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lodro-rinzler/a-buddhist-view-on-aborti_b_814751.html

[SassyLady]

Traditional Buddhism may discourage abortion, but it also discourages imposing rigid moral absolutes. Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche once said, "In the case of an abortion ... if the parents feel remorse they can help by acknowledging it, asking for forgiveness, and performing ardently the purification practice of Vajrasattva. They can also offer lights, and save lives, or help others, or sponsor some humanitarian or spiritual project, dedicating it to the well-being and future enlightenment of the baby's consciousness."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lodro-rinzler/a-buddhist-view-on-aborti_b_814751.html

I suppose this logic could be used for anything that was outside a "rigid moral absolute", not just abortion.

[Wind Song]

Anti-abortion/pro-fetal life only fanatics think their morality is the only morality that counts. I show that other religions see the issue differently.

Some of these same fanatics not only oppose a woman's right to choose but they also oppose ALL forms of contraception except abstinence.

[tailfins]

What do you want to do with her? Put her in pregnancy prison and MAKE her give birth?

Put her in prison only if she takes action to end the pregnancy in a manner other than birth.

[Wind Song]

Put her in prison only if she takes action to end the pregnancy in a manner other than birth.

I recommend you read the novels, A HandMaid's Tale by Margaret Atwood, and When She Woke by Hillary Jordan.

I think you should have been born during the Inquisition or Salem Witch trials.

I can just see the prison of your dreams, pregnant women in leg irons, being tortured for resisting the "moral status quo" of the fundamentalists. You worry about Muslims in Saudi Arabia and I'll worry about your brand of fundamentalism in the US.

[tailfins]

I recommend you read the novels, A HandMaid's Tale by Margaret Atwood, and When She Woke by Hillary Jordan.

I think you should have been born during the Inquisition or Salem Witch trials.

I can just see the prison of your dreams, pregnant women in leg irons, being tortured for resisting the "moral status quo" of the fundamentalists. You worry about Muslims in Saudi Arabia and I'll worry about your brand of fundamentalism in the US.

I bet you would fall for the joke about where to bury the survivors if a plane crashed in the Rio Grande. A woman wouldn't be pregnant if she ended her pregnancy. :stooges:

[Wind Song]

I bet you would fall for the joke about where to bury the survivors if a plane crashed in the Rio Grande. A woman wouldn't be pregnant if she ended her pregnancy. :stooges:


You're disgusting.

[tailfins]

You're disgusting.

So she finds logic disgusting. The answer to the joke is "You don't bury survivors". You'd probably fall for: "Do you pronounce the "s" when you say the capital of Kentucky"?

[Wind Song]

So she finds logic disgusting. The answer to the joke is "You don't bury survivors". You'd probably fall for: "Do you pronounce the "s" when you say the capital of Kentucky"?

I find your pathetic sense of humor disgusting. You're the same dope who wants to put pregnant in prison, right?

[tailfins]

I find your pathetic sense of humor disgusting. You're the same dope who wants to put pregnant in prison, right?

Noooooo. Pay attention: If you punish a women for terminating her pregnancy she is not pregnant anymore. Are you just trying to yank my chain or are you REALLY that dense?

[Wind Song]

Noooooo. Pay attention: If you punish a women for terminating her pregnancy she is not pregnant anymore. Are you just trying to yank my chain or are you REALLY that dense?


Neither.

[fj1200]

Anti-abortion/pro-fetal life only fanatics think their morality is the only morality that counts. I show that other religions see the issue differently.

Do you think only your morality should count?


Some of these same fanatics not only oppose a woman's right to choose but they also oppose ALL forms of contraception except abstinence.

Another broadbrush based on a minority? :rolleyes:

[Wind Song]

Do you think only your morality should count?



Another broadbrush based on a minority? :rolleyes:

No, I don't think that. The reason I am politically pro-choice is because I know and can live with the fact that we don't all follow the same moral teachings or see sentience occuring at the same time.

I do get the impression that rabid pro-FETALonly lifers think it should be their way or the highway.

I purposely used the term "rabid" to indicate those so enraged by their "superior" morality that they literally foam at the mouth with hatred. Remember Randall Terry? "I want you to let a wave of hatred wash over you. Yes, hate ..."

[fj1200]

No, I don't think that. The reason I am politically pro-choice is because I know and can live with the fact that we don't all follow the same moral teachings or see sentience occuring at the same time.

I do get the impression that rabid pro-FETALonly lifers think it should be their way or the highway.

I purposely used the term "rabid" to indicate those so enraged by their "superior" morality that they literally foam at the mouth with hatred. Remember Randall Terry? "I want you to let a wave of hatred wash over you. Yes, hate ..."


Last I checked they didn't have control over the government. And I know why you use "rabid."

[Wind Song]

Last I checked they didn't have control over the government. And I know why you use "rabid."


You think you're so goddamned smarter than everyone else. I use the term, "rabid" because the Randall Terry's of this world are hate mongers. The people lined up in front of Planned Parenthood shouting their heads off aren't peaceful people.

They value fetal tissue more than a woman's life. They aren't willing to let people have their own conscience. They seek power over others.

[tailfins]

The people lined up in front of Planned Parenthood shouting their heads off aren't peaceful people.


I certainly hope not! Peaceful don't feed the bulldog.

[fj1200]

You think you're so goddamned smarter than everyone else. I use the term, "rabid" because the Randall Terry's of this world are hate mongers. The people lined up in front of Planned Parenthood shouting their heads off aren't peaceful people.

They value fetal tissue more than a woman's life. They aren't willing to let people have their own conscience. They seek power over others.

You use that sort of language to tarnish everyone, no matter how reasonable the moderates may be.

[Wind Song]

You use that sort of language to tarnish everyone, no matter how reasonable the moderates may be.

Here's what I've learned over the years when discussing a woman's right to choose. We NEVER find a compromise position because there isn't one. The best we can hope for is that each side see the humanness in the other.

There is no such thing as being "reasonable" in ANY position on this issue. JMO.

All I get is cheap shots anytime I discuss the issue no matter how "reasonable" I think the "Buddhist position" is.

[PostmodernProphet]

Very interesting. You place the life of a fertilized egg above that of an adult woman. Pro life movement is pro-FETAL life only.

if that was for me, you couldn't be more wrong.....though I will place the life of a fertilized egg above the convenience of an adult woman, even above the discomfort of an adult woman.....particularly if that woman is adult enough to be aware of how that fertilized egg came to be......

and pro-choice is simply another way of saying pro-death......sort of like how Planned Parenthood is actually about killing the unplanned.....

[PostmodernProphet]

Traditional Buddhism may discourage abortion, but it also discourages imposing rigid moral absolutes. Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche once said, "In the case of an abortion ... if the parents feel remorse they can help by acknowledging it, asking for forgiveness, and performing ardently the purification practice of Vajrasattva. They can also offer lights, and save lives, or help others, or sponsor some humanitarian or spiritual project, dedicating it to the well-being and future enlightenment of the baby's consciousness."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lodro-rinzler/a-buddhist-view-on-aborti_b_814751.html

what meditations do the Buddhists offer to make the unborn corpse feel better about things.....because I'm pretty sure it's consciousness isn't going to be thrilled about the treatment it's already received.....

[PostmodernProphet]

Anti-abortion/pro-fetal life only fanatics think their morality is the only morality that counts. I show that other religions see the issue differently.

Some of these same fanatics not only oppose a woman's right to choose but they also oppose ALL forms of contraception except abstinence.

I'm sorry, Wind....perhaps they will later grow to experience regret and change their ways, but at the time, killing your child can only be an immoral choice no matter how hard you pretend otherwise.........

[Wind Song]

if that was for me, you couldn't be more wrong.....though I will place the life of a fertilized egg above the convenience of an adult woman, even above the discomfort of an adult woman.....particularly if that woman is adult enough to be aware of how that fertilized egg came to be......

and pro-choice is simply another way of saying pro-death......sort of like how Planned Parenthood is actually about killing the unplanned.....

Wow. That blows my mind. A fertilized egg is worth more to you than a woman. Do you also object to contraception?

How do you view your political opponents?

[PostmodernProphet]

I use the term, "rabid" because the Randall Terry's of this world are hate mongers.

and yet, it's the pro-abortion crowd with the blood of 50 million children on their hands.....to me, that sounds like a whole lot of hate....

[Wind Song]

and yet, it's the pro-abortion crowd with the blood of 50 million children on their hands.....to me, that sounds like a whole lot of hate....

Keep going.

[PostmodernProphet]

The best we can hope for is that each side see the humanness in the other.

is there humanness in someone who would kill a child?.....

[Wind Song]

is there humanness in someone who would kill a child?.....

Keep going. You represent this forum perfectly.

[PostmodernProphet]

Wow. That blows my mind. A fertilized egg is worth more to you than a woman.

the convenience of an adult woman, even above the discomfort of an adult woman.....there, perhaps that's cleared things up for you....


Do you also object to contraception?

no, do you believe killing your child is an acceptable form of contraception?....




How do you view your political opponents?

the stupid ones or the intelligent ones?.....

[SassyLady]

Wow. That blows my mind. A fertilized egg is worth more to you than a woman. Do you also object to contraception?

How do you view your political opponents?

Once again, PMP did not say the egg is more important. reread the post. what was said is that the egg is more important than the woman being inconvienced or uncomfortable. You are the one pretending all abortions are to protect the mother's health.

[Wind Song]

Keep going Prophet

[PostmodernProphet]

Keep going. You represent this forum perfectly.

thank you....have I then made you see the error of your ways?.....

[Wind Song]

I don't think you've fully expressed your position yet. Keep going.

[PostmodernProphet]

I don't think you've fully expressed your position yet. Keep going.

I have responded to all your comments......if you wish to hear more you're going to have to participate.....do you intend to try to defend any of your statements?......