Objective learning, religious style.

[Wind Song]

No. I'm just listening to you. I have nothing further to say about this issue. My position is clear. You know where you stand and I know where I stand.

[PostmodernProphet]

I so suspect you've incorrectly stated the Buddhist position on abortion....I find it unlikely that a religion that objects to the death of a snail is going to condone the killing of a human being.....

[PostmodernProphet]

No. I'm just listening to you. I have nothing further to say about this issue. My position is clear.

then there's no further reason to pay attention to you.....goodby...

[Wind Song]

I so suspect you've incorrectly stated the Buddhist position on abortion....I find it unlikely that a religion that objects to the death of a snail is going to condone the killing of a human being.....

That's fine. I'm sure you know more about Buddhism than I do.

[Wind Song]

then there's no further reason to pay attention to you.....goodby...


Goodbye.

[PostmodernProphet]

That's fine. I'm sure you know more about Buddhism than I do.

thank you....

[Kathianne]

That's fine. I'm sure you know more about Buddhism than I do.

So would any well schooled 7th grader.

[Wind Song]

I'm getting quite a kick out of you PP. You completely represent the views of this entire forum on this topic.

Well done.

[SassyLady]

I'm getting quite a kick out of you PP.

You completely represent the views of this entire forum on this topic. Well done.
broad brush strokes again. I'm sure that everyone here has not voiced their opinion as yet...but that doesn't matter to you because you want to condemn and try to shame anyone who doesn't agree with you by lumping them into some ugly bucket of hate you have by your side.

[Wind Song]

Keep going.

What I've learned about the issue of a woman's right to choose is that we will never agree, never find a compromise. The best we can hope for is to see our opponents as human.

As soon as PP heard that my view is firm and he/she cannot dissuade me from it, he/she was no longer interested in talking.

She/he isn't interested in talking to a Buddhist about the Buddhist perspective because he/she already knows EVERYTHING about Buddhism, even though it's not his/her religion.

What PP and ilk want is power over others. No choice for a woman, a re-criminalization of abortion. A return to unsafe procedures and maternal/infant death.

Gabbie may have an open mind, but I think that's it, when it comes to this topic. My way or the highway says the ProFetalLife Only crowd.

The funny thing is I've NEVER had an unplanned pregnancy, I've always been careful. Statistically, even women like myself who are very careful still get pregnant. Contraception doesn't always work 100%.

The moralists would just tell women to keep their legs closed.

[PostmodernProphet]

I thought it might be fun to go back and really explore that article about Buddhism and abortion.....here is something I found....


Generally speaking in Buddhism it is traditionally believed that life starts at the time of conception. Little in-between-realms you sees your parents having sex, thinks it looks pretty cool, and goes to investigate. At that point your consciousness has entered the realm and goes about the process of being born. As such, the Buddha taught that abortion is indeed taking a being's life which is a grave misdeed.

apparently a traditional Buddhist also believes then that a fertilized egg is of greater value than a mere inconvenience to an adult woman.....




You mentioned that you have done many self destructive things on your path towards forgiveness. The fact that you have recognized those things as destructive is step one. Step two is abandoning those things. Step three is even harder. Step three is learning new habits, specifically learning to be with our emotions as they are, be they guilt, anger, or sadness. To feel our emotions fully is, in my experience, the best road to forgiving ourselves for our mistakes.

it would appear then that the proper first step for a Buddhist who had condoned abortion is to acknowledge that the act is destructive, the second is to abandon support for abortion and the third is to learn new habits, presumably not aborting......

[PostmodernProphet]

Keep going.

What I've learned about the issue of a woman's right to choose is that we will never agree, never find a compromise. The best we can hope for is to see our opponents as human.

As soon as PP heard that my view is firm and he/she cannot dissuade me from it, he/she was no longer interested in talking.

She/he isn't interested in talking to a Buddhist about the Buddhist perspective because he/she already knows EVERYTHING about Buddhism, even though it's not his/her religion.

What PP and ilk want is power over others. No choice for a woman, a re-criminalization of abortion. A return to unsafe procedures and maternal/infant death.

Gabbie may have an open mind, but I think that's it, when it comes to this topic. My way or the highway says the ProFetalLife Only crowd.

PP is a he, and PP will continue to talk, simply not to someone who has refused to participate in debate....I will talk to the wind, not to the WindSong....

I heard a whisper on the wind about maternal/infant death......a well informed person should know that as many women die from legal abortions every year than died from illegal abortions in the year prior to Roe v Wade......

[Wind Song]

Keep going, PP. You know everything already. No need to talk to me. Interesting how you cherry picked that article and skipped over the choice part. And come to find out, you're a man too.

I just love it when men limit women's choices and think a woman's body is his property.

[PostmodernProphet]

actually there is very little in the Huffpuff article that would support the thought that a Buddhist could actually support an abortion in any circumstance other than for the health of the mother......in essence the entire article is about how a Buddhist should deal with the guilt that would result in participating in an abortion....if find it surprising then that anyone would actually attempt to use it to try to support a pro-abortion stance.....it's a shame there's no one left around here willing to defend that position.....or perhaps the claim that the unborn child's body is the property of a woman.....

[Wind Song]

Too bad you don't know the difference between pro-choice and pro-abortion. If you did, we could have a conversation. I suspect all you care about is limiting reproductive choice for women. You want to recriminalize abortion and have us return to back alley, coat hanger and unsafe procedures.

You don't care about women, only about fetal tissue.

[PostmodernProphet]

I only want to remove one choice, that of killing the unborn child, whether it be done in a Planned Parenthood clinic or a back alley.......in the meantime I leave you with the words that Lodro Rinzler gave to the woman who sought forgiveness for having an abortion in the article you provided us above....


We grow stronger knowing that we have survived our mistakes and learned from them.

may you also learn.....

[Wind Song]

in the meantime I leave you with the words that Lodro Rinzler gave to the woman who sought forgiveness for having an abortion....



may you also learn.....

May you open your mind and heart to others different from you. May your judging cease. You win people over with love, not condemnation.

[PostmodernProphet]

don't waste your time sending me PMs Windsong, I don't read them, I don't respond to them.....

[PostmodernProphet]

May you open your mind and heart to others different from you.

why would I open my mind to ignorance?.....you didn't even read the article you linked closely enough to realize it contradicted your argument.....

[Wind Song]

don't waste your time sending me PMs Windsong, I don't read them, I don't respond to them.....


Thanks for telling me. I always give people who have a personal problem with me the opportunity to work it out privately, without hijacking a thread.

[PostmodernProphet]

Thanks for telling me. I always give people who have a personal problem with me the opportunity to work it out privately, without hijacking a thread.

I don't have a personal problem with you......I don't know you well enough to have one, or care to....I'm merely pointing out the mistakes in your argument, which can be done here.....

[Wind Song]

I don't have a personal problem with you......I don't know you well enough to have one, or care to....I'm merely pointing out the mistakes in your argument, which can be done here.....


If you had read the entire article, you would see it completely supports my position. Pro-choice, not pro-abortion.

I can tell you can't handle nuance in this topic. You think you're right about everything and no one else's morality counts. I gave you plenty of rope and you hung yourself.

[PostmodernProphet]

If you had read the entire article, you would see it completely supports my position. Pro-choice, not pro-abortion.



I suggest you read it again....he is addressing a woman who feels remorse for having aborted her child.....he states that Buddhism traditionally treats abortion as a grave misdeed except in the instance of the health of the mother, then tells her how she can make amends to obtain peace with herself.......that hardly "completely supports" a position of abortion on demand......

[Wind Song]

I suggest you read it again....he is addressing a woman who feels remorse for having aborted her child.....he states that Buddhism traditionally treats abortion as a grave misdeed except in the instance of the health of the mother, then tells her how she can make amends to obtain peace with herself.......that hardly "completely supports" a position of abortion on demand......

I don't support "abortion on demand". I support choice. Why? Because it's not MY decision to make. You think you own every woman's uterus. I don't. It's between the woman and her conscience, karma or God.

You don't understand how I can be against abortion, religiously, and pro-choice politically. I'm sorry for that.

You are as thick as a brick and not open to anyone's position except your own. Your mind and heart are tight as a steel trap.

You think you're God.

[PostmodernProphet]

I don't support "abortion on demand". I support choice.

do you support a woman's right to choose to abort for any reason and at any time?......


You don't understand how I can be against abortion, religiously, and pro-choice politically. I'm sorry for that.

you have a point there....I do not understand how any person can believe it is wrong to kill unborn children and then sit back and let people do it......and I'm sorry that you do.....




You think you're God.

no, but I think there IS a God....and I believe that killing children really, really pisses him off......

[Wind Song]

do you support a woman's right to choose to abort for any reason and at any time?......


I support a woman's right to decide what's best for her. I don't support abortion. I wouldn't have one, wouldn't advise anyone else to have one and wouldn't condemn anyone who had one.

It's very heavy karma. I wouldn't wish it on anyone.

The last thing someone with that kind of karma needs is some asshole telling her she's wrong and bad.

[PostmodernProphet]

I support a woman's right to decide what's best for her. I don't support abortion. I wouldn't have one, wouldn't advise anyone else to have one and wouldn't condemn anyone who had one.

It's very heavy karma. I wouldn't wish it on anyone.

The last thing someone with that kind of karma needs is some asshole telling her she's wrong and bad.

here's a thought.....if you really think it's bad karma for her to kill her child, don't tell her she's free to do it, tell her it's wrong!.......in the article you linked Buddha told the murderer to break the branch off a tree and then told him to put it back on.....when he couldn't do it he told him that then he shouldn't have broken it off in the first place......in your version, Buddha would have been an asshole for making him feel bad......

[Wind Song]

here's a thought.....if you really think it's bad karma for her to kill her child, don't tell her she's free to do it, tell her it's wrong!.......in the article you linked Buddha told the murderer to break the branch off a tree and then told him to put it back on.....when he couldn't do it he told him that then he shouldn't have broken it off in the first place......in your version, Buddha have been an asshole for making him feel bad......

You stupid stupid man. If any woman asked me my opinion about getting an abortion I would advise her against it. Ultimately it's NOT MY CHOICE. It's hers.

If Buddha's an asshole, but what does that make you? How would you like it if I said Jesus is an asshole?

[PostmodernProphet]

You stupid stupid man. If any woman asked me my opinion about getting an abortion I would advise her against it. Ultimately it's NOT MY CHOICE. It's hers.

If Buddha's an asshole, but what does that make you? How would you like it if I said Jesus is an asshole?

???...I'm not the one who said Buddha was an asshole, you were....you said someone who makes someone feel bad about a choice they made was an asshole......that is what Buddha did to Angulimal


The Buddha, willing to offer his life to fulfill Angulimal's desire to complete his necklace, asked only for one last wish. His desire? For Angulimal to cut a branch from a tree. Angulimal did so and offered it to the Buddha. Then the Buddha asked him to re-attach it to the tree. When he saw the murderer was confused the Buddha explained, "If you cannot create, you have no right to destroy. If you cannot give life, you don't have the right to give death to any living thing." Angulimal was instantly transformed, put down his sword and was accepted into the monastic order. He was forgiven by the Buddha himself for his misdeeds and is said to have died a truly awakened man.

from your link above...

[Wind Song]

???...I'm not the one who said Buddha was an asshole, you were....

Nope. I didn't do that. Here are your words: in your version, Buddha have been an asshole for making him feel bad......

Frankly, I think you're a moralistic, narrow minded asshole. Typical fundie. You want to put to death anyone who disagrees with you.

[PostmodernProphet]

I find it interesting that your arguments are full of the mindless accusations typically thrown about by those who support abortion.....you accuse me of wanting to put people to death because I object to you PERMITTING people to kill their unborn children.....do you not see the irony inherent in that?.....

[PostmodernProphet]

Typical fundie.

by the way I am the member of a congregation considered in it's classis to be fairly liberal, in a denomination described as "mainstream"......

[Wind Song]

I find it interesting that your arguments are full of the mindless accusations typically thrown about by those who support abortion.....you accuse me of wanting to put people to death because I object to you PERMITTING people to kill their unborn children.....do you not see the irony inherent in that?.....

It is NOT MY decision. It is NOT yours either. It is the decision of the woman who inhabits the body, HER body, not YOURs.

[Wind Song]

by the way I am the member of a congregation considered in it's classis to be fairly liberal, in a denomination described as "mainstream"......

You're a fanatic.

[PostmodernProphet]

It is NOT MY decision. It is NOT yours either. It is the decision of the woman who inhabits the body, HER body, not YOURs.

but we're talking about the child's body....the woman's body isn't that one that gets cut into tiny pieces and flushed away....

[PostmodernProphet]

You're a fanatic. Fanaticism has become mainstream.

well, not actually.....

[Wind Song]

but we're talking about the child's body....the woman's body isn't that one that gets cut into tiny pieces and flushed away....

You don't care about the pregnant woman. You only care about fetal tissue, a single fertilized egg with no verifiable sentience.

[PostmodernProphet]

You don't care about the pregnant woman. You only care about fetal tissue, a single fertilized egg with no verifiable sentience.

wait....a Buddhist values sentient life.....do you believe a woman should have the choice to end a fetus who is sentient or must she be prevented from aborting the unborn child once sentience can be demonstrated?......

[Wind Song]

wait....a Buddhist values sentient life.....do you believe a woman should have the choice to end a fetus who is sentient or must she be prevented from aborting the unborn child once sentience can be demonstrated?......


Yes, truth is women have the choice now and they've always had the choice. Just as our society has a choice to let the procedure be safe for the woman or not.

You choose fetal tissue over an adult woman. You're a moral absolutist. You want to punish anyone who doesn't share your narrow minded views.

[PostmodernProphet]

Yes, truth is women have the choice now and they've always had the choice. Just as our society has a choice to let the procedure be safe for the woman or not.

You choose fetal tissue over an adult woman. You're a moral absolutist. You want to punish anyone who doesn't share your narrow minded views.

you didn't answer the question.....do you agree that a woman should be prevented from having an abortion if it can be demonstrated that the child is sentient.....as defined in Buddhism, the state of having senses......

[Wind Song]

you didn't answer the question.....do you agree that a woman should be prevented from having an abortion if it can be demonstrated that the child is sentient.....as defined in Buddhism, the state of having senses......


No. I think she should be advised, but not prevented. You're heavy handed with women. You want to control their choices. I want to offer them wisdom and love, not condemnation and hatred.

You think you're God. All you want is power.

[PostmodernProphet]

I want to offer them wisdom and love, not condemnation and hatred

actually, we've already covered the fact you want to offer them a fast track to bad karma.....if you really wanted to offer them wisdom and love you would talk them in the opposite direction......

[PostmodernProphet]

No. I think she should be advised, but not prevented.

so once again you disagree with Buddha....a sentient being may be killed....

[fj1200]

Here's what I've learned over the years when discussing a woman's right to choose. We NEVER find a compromise position because there isn't one. The best we can hope for is that each side see the humanness in the other.

There is no such thing as being "reasonable" in ANY position on this issue. JMO.

All I get is cheap shots anytime I discuss the issue no matter how "reasonable" I think the "Buddhist position" is.

Here is what I have learned; Pro-abortion folks have to resist ANY attempt at allowing society to moderate the issue lest the true belief of the public come through to a reasonable position. Overturning Roe v. Wade does not outlaw abortion it just makes it subject to state regulation. PMP may be hard one one side and you are hard on the other side but if the states were to decide and the majority were to decide to allow abortion up to three months, THAT would be reasonable.

And I think the "Buddhist position" is rather balderdash because it refuses to look at what might be right versus what might be wrong. I'm confused how the Buddhist position is to refuse to see the humanness of what a fetus could become.


Wow. That blows my mind. A fertilized egg is worth more to you than a woman. Do you also object to contraception?

How do you view your political opponents?

Wow, you certainly misread that. He said that life > convenience, not egg > woman. Or was that on purpose to demonize?

[Wind Song]

actually, we've already covered the fact you want to offer them a fast track to bad karma.....if you really wanted to offer them wisdom and love you would talk them in the opposite direction......

I've already stated that if I was asked I would advise any dear one to NOT terminate their pregnancy unless it was a health risk to carry.

I completely would offer love and wisdom.

The difference between us is that I accept that not everyone is interested in my 'wisdom', and that it is the woman's choice, not mine, to make.

[Wind Song]

Here is what I have learned; Pro-abortion folks have to resist ANY attempt at allowing society to moderate the issue lest the true belief of the public come through to a reasonable position. Overturning Roe v. Wade does not outlaw abortion it just makes it subject to state regulation. PMP may be hard one one side and you are hard on the other side but if the states were to decide and the majority were to decide to allow abortion up to three months, THAT would be reasonable.

And I think the "Buddhist position" is rather balderdash because it refuses to look at what might be right versus what might be wrong. I'm confused how the Buddhist position is to refuse to see the humanness of what a fetus could become.



Wow, you certainly misread that. He said that life > convenience, not egg > woman. Or was that on purpose to demonize?

Here's what I've learned about you. You don't understand the Buddhist perspective at all. Further, you're not interested in understanding it.

Of course, Buddhists see that the fetus is a potential human being. That's why we would try and influence a pregnant woman away from terminating a pregnancy.

Buddhists are NOT moral absolutists. We accept that women have the right to make these decisions without our "help".

Judeo Christians are absolute moralists and they condemn everyone and anyone who doesn't lock step to their demands. They are also eternalists, Buddhists aren't.

Even the karma of killing can be purified.

[DragonStryk72]

I've already stated that if I was asked I would advise any dear one to NOT terminate their pregnancy unless it was a health risk to carry.

I completely would offer love and wisdom.

The difference between us is that I accept that not everyone is interested in my 'wisdom', and that it is the woman's choice, not mine, to make.

You also decided that being in any way against murdering fetuses is qualifying people for the Taliban. Never mind that they don't want any of those horrific things brought into law, no, you just had to use those peoples' suffering for your fucking play toy.

[Wind Song]

You also decided that being in any way against murdering fetuses is qualifying people for the Taliban. Never mind that they don't want any of those horrific things brought into law, no, you just had to use those peoples' suffering for your fucking play toy.

That's not what I'm saying. The Army of God is no different than the Taliban. Some of the rhetoric of the anti-choice movement misuses comparison to the Holocaust.

I'm using the same tactic that deploy and you don't like it much, do you?

Neither do I when THEY use it.

The fact that you use the term "murder" or "baby killer" when referring to the termination of a pregnancy shows that you like to use your own inflammatory terms on your poltical opponents. Yet, you're so "outraged" by me.

The Taliban are moral absolutist and the anti-choice movement are moral absolutists.

Your crowd uses words such as "abortion as birth control", "abortion as convenience" and "abortion on demand" that imply abortion is a casual choice. It's not.

The anti-choice crowd devalues and trivializes women.

[Wind Song]

Notice all the rightwingers have resigned from the debate. Losers.

[tailfins]

Notice all the rightwingers have resigned from the debate. Losers.

You're the one that suggested we not discuss this topic. I already said I think Buddhism comes from the pit.

I don't agree with Jack Chick on everything, but in the case of Buddhism, yes:
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0016/0016_01.asp

[fj1200]

Notice all the rightwingers have resigned from the debate. Losers.

Who resigned? A brick wall takes information better. :poke:


Here's what I've learned about you. You don't understand the Buddhist perspective at all. Further, you're not interested in understanding it.

Of course, Buddhists see that the fetus is a potential human being. That's why we would try and influence a pregnant woman away from terminating a pregnancy.

Buddhists are NOT moral absolutists. We accept that women have the right to make these decisions without our "help".

Judeo Christians are absolute moralists and they condemn everyone and anyone who doesn't lock step to their demands. They are also eternalists, Buddhists aren't.

Even the karma of killing can be purified.

Here's what you haven't learned about me. I'm a quick learner and understand your POV BECAUSE YOU REPEAT IT OVER AND OVER.

As you say, you're not an absolutist, but sometimes you need to recognize that there are absolutes. You also refuse to entertain the idea of society compromising over the subject while screaming that there can't be any compromise. If the people were allowed then I have little doubt that the vast majority would be pleased with the ultimate outcome.

[PostmodernProphet]

Notice all the rightwingers have resigned from the debate. Losers.

actually, I went to bed.....I try to do that once a day.....

[PostmodernProphet]

I've already stated that if I was asked I would advise any dear one to NOT terminate their pregnancy unless it was a health risk to carry.

I completely would offer love and wisdom.

The difference between us is that I accept that not everyone is interested in my 'wisdom', and that it is the woman's choice, not mine, to make.

let me ask you this....let's say you are counseling a young teen with depression......she tells you she's decided to slash her wrists and end it all......would you advise her not to do it, offer her love and wisdom, and then tell her it's okay, it's her choice and let her do it?......

[Wind Song]

let me ask you this....let's say you are counseling a young teen with depression......she tells you she's decided to slash her wrists and end it all......would you advise her not to do it, offer her love and wisdom, and then tell her it's okay, it's her choice and let her do it?......
It's not analogous. We are talking about a woman's right to choose, not suicide.

I take it you're less fragile than your friends are. You still want to debate this issue? I'm sorry but I won't be available for awhile.

[darin]

It's not analogous. We are talking about a woman's right to choose, not suicide.

I take it you're less fragile than your friends are. You still want to debate this issue? I'm sorry but I won't be available for awhile.

You're TERRIBLE at debate. While you're on your self-imposed sabbatical, PLEASE learn to debate with reason, okay?

[Wind Song]

You're TERRIBLE at debate. While you're on your self-imposed sabbatical, PLEASE learn to debate with reason, okay?

It's not self-imposed sabbatical. I'm leaving as an offering to the community.

[darin]

It's not self-imposed sabbatical. I'm leaving as an offering to the community.

Add to your arrogance false self-sacrifice.

Look man, I'm on your shit because I think you're smart enough to do BETTER than the tripe you come up with. You're like Gomer Pyle from Full Metal Jacket sometimes. You can BE better if you decide to fix yourself; stop with the off-topic rants after your points are proven invalid. Perhaps, just sometimes, be willing to change your views based on the evidence. I get the sense your ego is too fragile to allow the possibility that ANYTHING you believe could be (gasp!) wrong.

C'mon dude.

[tailfins]

It's not analogous. We are talking about a woman's right to choose, not suicide.

I take it you're less fragile than your friends are. You still want to debate this issue? I'm sorry but I won't be available for awhile.


She seems to be OK with what happened to Gianna Jessen.

[Abbey Marie]

I support a woman's right to decide what's best for her. I don't support abortion. I wouldn't have one, wouldn't advise anyone else to have one and wouldn't condemn anyone who had one.

It's very heavy karma. I wouldn't wish it on anyone.

The last thing someone with that kind of karma needs is some asshole telling her she's wrong and bad.

You're right. She needed someone to tell her that before she killed her child.

Or better yet, a law, like those we have for homicide, that disallowed it in the first place. So potentially misguided women would have the law, which you hold in such high esteem, to tell her what she should not do.

[Wind Song]

You're right. She needed someone to tell her that before she killed her child.

Or better yet, a law, like those we have for homicide, that disallowed it in the first place. So potentially misguided women would have the law, which you hold in such high esteem, to tell her what she should not do.

What you folks are unhappy with is that you cannot control other people's behavior. You think abortion will end if you recriminalize it. It won't. Abortion has been with us for millenia.

I already told everyone here that if anyone asked me for guidance regarding an unwanted and unplanned pregancy I would advise carry the pregnancy to term.

What I won't do, is impose my morality on someone who has a legal right to do something else. I cannot make someone have or not have an abortion.

Fundamentalists are all the same whether they are in Afghanistan or America. Using harsh, draconian measures to control other people is against my religion.

[Wind Song]

She seems to be OK with what happened to Gianna Jessen.
Who is Gianna Jessen?

[Wind Song]

Add to your arrogance false self-sacrifice.

Look man, I'm on your shit because I think you're smart enough to do BETTER than the tripe you come up with. You're like Gomer Pyle from Full Metal Jacket sometimes. You can BE better if you decide to fix yourself; stop with the off-topic rants after your points are proven invalid. Perhaps, just sometimes, be willing to change your views based on the evidence. I get the sense your ego is too fragile to allow the possibility that ANYTHING you believe could be (gasp!) wrong.

C'mon dude.
You think there is only one right and one wrong. That is moral absolutism. It's an extreme view.

[fj1200]

Fundamentalists are all the same whether they are in Afghanistan or America.

You do understand the difference between the two countries don't you?

[Wind Song]

You do understand the difference between the two countries don't you?

Of course. The direction that American fundies want to go is only a few steps behind the Taliban. We have people who want doctors who perform safe medical procedures to be tried as murderers.

The rhetoric of the anti-choice movement is as extreme as the Taliban. They are the ones making the analogy to the Holocaust, which must really anger some Jews.

[fj1200]

Of course.

You haven't identified the fundamental difference yet.

[Kathianne]

Borrowed from a friend on another board:

<iframe src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/7y2KsU_dhwI?rel=0" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="560"></iframe>

[Wind Song]

You haven't identified the fundamental difference yet.

The difference between the Taliban and American fundies?

The difference is the Taliban has control of the country and in American the fundies WANT control of America but they don't have it yet.

I don't see much difference between forcing women to wear veils and forcing women to bear children they don't want.

[fj1200]

The difference between the Taliban and American fundies?

The difference is the Taliban has control of the country and in American the fundies WANT control of America but they don't have it yet.

I don't see much difference between forcing women to wear veils and forcing women to bear children they don't want.

There you go. And they won't have it.

[Wind Song]

There you go. And they won't have it.
Oh yes they will. They are very powerful in this country.

[tailfins]

Who is Gianna Jessen?

Abortion survivor who has Cerebal Palsy caused by the attempt to abort her by Planned Parenthood:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPF1FhCMPuQ

[Wind Song]

Ah, anti-choice poster child.

[fj1200]

Oh yes they will. They are very powerful in this country.

No they won't. They are a minority.

Don't be paranoid.

[Wind Song]

No they won't. They are a minority.

Don't be paranoid.

They are a growing entity. They have a ton of money and a LOT of influence.

[tailfins]

Ah, anti-choice poster child.

So you DO find it acceptable. I just want others to notice on what level you are.

[Wind Song]

So you DO find it acceptable. I just want others to notice on what level you are.

No. That is your interpretation of my post. Why not ask me what I meant?

[fj1200]

They are a growing entity. They have a ton of money and a LOT of influence.

So do a lot of lefties. It won't happen.

[tailfins]

No. That is your interpretation of my post. Why not ask me what I meant?

Why ask? I knew you would tell me anyway.

[Wind Song]

So do a lot of lefties. It won't happen.

I wish I had that confidence. I don't. Moral absolutists run this country.

[fj1200]

I wish I had that confidence. I don't. Moral absolutists run this country.

Whatever, use hyperbole and fear rather than logic and confidence in the system. Besides, if that were even true, abortion would be illegal already.

[PostmodernProphet]

It's not analogous. We are talking about a woman's right to choose, not suicide.
no we're talking about people making bad choices and whether a Buddhist should persuade them to not make bad choices or sit back and let them make bad choices....



I take it you're less fragile than your friends are. You still want to debate this issue? I'm sorry but I won't be available for awhile.

I'm very fragile....but you're a light weight and didn't do any damage.....I spend most of my time on a board with three conservatives and 200 liberals crazier than PsychoBlues.....I got a scar, see?.....yeah I know it's little but you gotta look close.....

[Wind Song]

Whatever, use hyperbole and fear rather than logic and confidence in the system. Besides, if that were even true, abortion would be illegal already.
I admit I'm very afraid of this happening. Fundamentalism taking over in America and turning our country into Afghanistan.

[Wind Song]

no we're talking about people making bad choices and whether a Buddhist should persuade them to not make bad choices or sit back and let them make bad choices....



....

A Buddhist might persuade a woman to not have a abortion. Moral absolutists like you would force a woman to do YOUR WILL, not her choice.

What are you planning to do? Hold a gun to a woman's head for nine months?

[tailfins]

I wish I had that confidence. I don't. Moral absolutists run this country.


That's not how it works in our Constitutional Republic. Everybody gets some of what they want. Nobody gets everything. What you don't understand is that good law doesn't target anyone. If the cops can do random searches in the ghetto, they can do them everywhere. You and those like you are so busy wanting to "stick it" to the right, it never occurs to you to repackage your goals so they don't raise red flags with the right in the first place.

[PostmodernProphet]

I don't see much difference between forcing women to wear veils and forcing women to bear children they don't want.

well, for one thing, veils don't die when you take them off.....

[Kathianne]

A Buddhist might persuade a woman to not have a abortion. Moral absolutists like you would force a woman to do YOUR WILL, not her choice.

What are you planning to do? Hold a gun to a woman's head for nine months?

What I know of Buddhism is that it's focus is on the person leading their life in the Middle Way, not so much convincing others of what they should do.

[Wind Song]

That's not how it works in our Constitutional Republic. Everybody gets some of what they want. Nobody gets everything. What you don't understand is that good law doesn't target anyone. If the cops can do random searches in the ghetto, they can do them everywhere. You and those like you are so busy wanting to "stick it" to the right, it never occurs to you to repackage your goals so they don't raise red flags with the right in the first place.

I wish that were true. Without a civil rights movement black people would still be slaves.

[Wind Song]

What I know of Buddhism is that it's focus is on the person leading their life in the Middle Way, not so much convincing others of what they should do.

True.

I'm not convincing anyone to do anything, am I? I'm expressing my views. I have a right to do so.

[Wind Song]

well, for one thing, veils don't die when you take them off.....

That's a pretty dumb statement. Moral absolutism means that there is never any gray, never any room for someone who act out of their own conscience.

Your position is all about FORCE. Mine is about CHOICE. The odd thing is we even agree on the sanctity of life, we disagree on what is a skillful means to accomplish less abortions.

[PostmodernProphet]

What I won't do, is impose my morality on someone who has a legal right to do something else.

obviously then the solution is to make it illegal.....look, imagine a society in which a child grows up believing that it's okay to kill people who are 47.....because in 1972 the SC said people cal kill 47 year olds.....do you believe, as a Buddhist, that should you change the law so people don't have the choice to kill 47 year olds or merely tell them you don't think they should but if they choose to, it's okay.....

[PostmodernProphet]

You think there is only one right and one wrong. That is moral absolutism. It's an extreme view.

do you really believe that in any shape or form, killing an unborn child can be a "right" instead of a "wrong"?.........to me, it is thinking it is "right" that is an extreme view.....no, actually it is beyond extreme....it is horrifying.....

[Kathianne]

I wish that were true. Without a civil rights movement black people would still be slaves.

Wrong. Slavery ended in 1865. Reconstruction, that by the federal government, failed through under-financing and non-enforcement by 1877. The Civil Rights Movement basically began in small ways in the 1920's and in a major way with Brown vs. Board of Education.

[Wind Song]

obviously then the solution is to make it illegal.....look, imagine a society in which a child grows up believing that it's okay to kill people who are 47.....because in 1972 the SC said people cal kill 47 year olds.....do you believe, as a Buddhist, that should you change the law so people don't have the choice to kill 47 year olds or merely tell them you don't think they should but if they choose to, it's okay.....
No. It didn't work to criminalize abortion. We've already had abortion outlawed. All that accomplished was in addition to fetal death, we added maternal death too.

We ought to be putting more effort into making safe and effective contraception more available and lower cost.

And encouraging more men to have vasectomies.

[PostmodernProphet]

Hold a gun to a woman's head for nine months?

no, just making it illegal for her to use one on her children....

[Kathianne]

True.

I'm not convincing anyone to do anything, am I? I'm expressing my views. I have a right to do so.

Ah, but you posted:


http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Wind Song http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?p=542731#post542731)
A Buddhist might persuade a woman to not have a abortion. Moral absolutists like you would force a woman to do YOUR WILL, not her choice.

What are you planning to do? Hold a gun to a woman's head for nine months?

[fj1200]

I admit I'm very afraid of this happening. Fundamentalism taking over in America and turning our country into Afghanistan.
:slap:

[tailfins]

I wish that were true. Without a civil rights movement black people would still be slaves.

The anti-slavery laws are well conceived, they outlaw white slavery as well and are used to this day. The problem with hate crime laws is that if someone just feels like going "wilding" it is less of a crime if they perpetrate it against non-minorities. Targeting groups of people in law goes against equal protection under the law.

[fj1200]

I wish that were true. Without a civil rights movement black people would still be slaves.
:slap:

[PostmodernProphet]

That's a pretty dumb statement.

you see, there is one of the differences between us....I would have described it as a self evident truth...




Your position is all about FORCE. Mine is about CHOICE.
we are talking about a comparison of my views with the Taliban.....I would "force" someone to not use force on a helpless child......the Taliban would force someone to wear a particular kind of clothing......another difference between us....I think those are different things, you think they are the same......




The odd thing is we even agree on the sanctity of life, we disagree on what is a skillful means to accomplish less abortions.

and finally a third difference.....you think letting someone have an abortion will accomplish less abortions, I think preventing them from doing so will accomplish less abortions.....

[Wind Song]

do you really believe that in any shape or form, killing an unborn child can be a "right" instead of a "wrong"?.........to me, it is thinking it is "right" that is an extreme view.....no, actually it is beyond extreme....it is horrifying.....

It depends on the circumstances. If a woman's life is endangered by carrying a pregnancy to term than she should have the right to make that difficult choice.

What I find horrifying is what YOU want to do. You want to FORCE every pregnant woman to give birth AGAINST HER WILL.

That is truly horrifying. You have zero compassion for the complexity of some people's lives. What about a mentally ill woman who would be destabilized by carrying the pregnancy to term?

YOU WOULD FORCE HER TOO.

Victims of rape and incest. YOU WOULD FORCE THEM TOO.

[PostmodernProphet]

All that accomplished was in addition to fetal death, we added maternal death too.

I suggest you check the CDC data.....nearly as many women are dying now from legal abortions than died from illegal abortions in the year prior to Roe v Wade........

[PostmodernProphet]

It depends on the circumstances. If a woman's life is endangered by carrying a pregnancy to term than she should have the right to make that difficult choice.
lame.....abortion has always been legal to save the life of the mother, even before Roe v Wade....





Victims of rape and incest. YOU WOULD FORCE THEM TOO.

also lame.....what about the other 99% of abortions that have nothing to do with rape or incest.....talk about real issues, not throw away tripe.....

[Wind Song]

you see, there is one of the differences between us....I would have described it as a self evident truth...



we are talking about a comparison of my views with the Taliban.....I would "force" someone to not use force on a helpless child......the Taliban would force someone to wear a particular kind of clothing......another difference between us....I think those are different things, you think they are the same......




and finally a third difference.....you think letting someone have an abortion will accomplish less abortions, I think preventing them from doing so will accomplish less abortions.....

You would force women to comply with YOUR will that they bear children whether they want to or not.

Your approach is punitive. Mine is not.

[Wind Song]

lame.....abortion has always been legal to save the life of the mother, even before Roe v Wade....




also lame.....what about the other 99% of abortions that have nothing to do with rape or incest.....talk about real issues, not throw away tripe.....
We're done.

[Abbey Marie]

You would force women to comply with YOUR will that they bear children whether they want to or not.

Your approach is punitive. Mine is not.

Your approach is punitive to the baby.

[tailfins]

You would force women to comply with YOUR will that they bear children whether they want to or not.

Your approach is punitive. Mine is not.

A woman can generally CHOOSE whether or not to get pregnant in the first place.

[PostmodernProphet]

You would force women to comply with YOUR will that they bear children whether they want to or not.

Your approach is punitive. Mine is not.

rather than kill them?.....yes, I would....why should anyone have a right to kill their children......put them up for adoption don't kill them.....they are sentient creatures.....

[PostmodernProphet]

We're done.

why, did you run out of valid arguments again?....

[Kathianne]

why, did you run out of valid arguments again?....

One would think that is a gloating statement. ;)

[Kathianne]

you see, there is one of the differences between us....I would have described it as a self evident truth...



we are talking about a comparison of my views with the Taliban.....I would "force" someone to not use force on a helpless child......the Taliban would force someone to wear a particular kind of clothing......another difference between us....I think those are different things, you think they are the same......




and finally a third difference.....you think letting someone have an abortion will accomplish less abortions, I think preventing them from doing so will accomplish less abortions.....

Not to mention the Taliban would stone victims of rape, if they didn't marry their rapist. Oh, if they have 3 witnesses, the terms might be changed.

[PostmodernProphet]

this old goat can gloat......

[Kathianne]

A woman can generally CHOOSE whether or not to get pregnant in the first place.

Indeed. Birth control is widely available and cheap or free. Condoms are available for no cost at local high schools, most hospitals, and county health services.

[PostmodernProphet]

Indeed. Birth control is widely available and cheap or free. Condoms are available for no cost at local high schools, most hospitals, and county health services.

not to mention 50 cents each in most truck stop men's rooms....

[Kathianne]

not to mention 50 cents each in most truck stop men's rooms....

I've not been in truck stops much, don't remember seeing them in female rest room and I haven't frequented the males. ;)

[PostmodernProphet]

and I haven't frequented the males. ;)

well then you probably don't need to buy as many condoms.....

[Wind Song]

Here is what I have learned; Pro-abortion folks have to resist ANY attempt at allowing society to moderate the issue lest the true belief of the public come through to a reasonable position. Overturning Roe v. Wade does not outlaw abortion it just makes it subject to state regulation. PMP may be hard one one side and you are hard on the other side but if the states were to decide and the majority were to decide to allow abortion up to three months, THAT would be reasonable.

And I think the "Buddhist position" is rather balderdash because it refuses to look at what might be right versus what might be wrong. I'm confused how the Buddhist position is to refuse to see the humanness of what a fetus could become.



Wow, you certainly misread that. He said that life > convenience, not egg > woman. Or was that on purpose to demonize?

Here's what I've learned about you from this post.

1. You call anyone who is "pro-choice" a "pro-abortion" folk. That isn't true.
2. Overturning Roe will not limit the number of abortions that are performed. What will happen is they will all go underground, and women will have unsafe procedures.
3. You mock other religions position without trying to understand what it means to not be a moral absolutist. You demand respect for the anti-choice side and you have zero respect for opponents.
4. You have incorrectly stated my position. Of course there is human potential in a human fetus.
5. I don't know what you're talking about in the life is greater than convenience argument. It's a position I find untenable.


What's the deal around this place? No one values a woman enough to think she has a right to determine what happens to her own body?

[Wind Song]

why, did you run out of valid arguments again?....

No, I got tired of your relentless arrogance, your holier than thou position. Your total unwillingness to consider the woman's life as important as a fertilized eggs. But you probably think your sperm are people too. (sarcasm, not yet illegal at DP, but will be soon.)

[Wind Song]

A woman can generally CHOOSE whether or not to get pregnant in the first place.

That isn't true. Plenty of women get pregnant because their contraception failed. I suppose if you're a moral absolutist, you don't think women should have sex in the first place.

[Wind Song]

rather than kill them?.....yes, I would....why should anyone have a right to kill their children......put them up for adoption don't kill them.....they are sentient creatures.....


What isn't fair about the way you discuss this issue is that you refuse to acknowledge that a fertilized egg is not a child. A fertilized egg is not a baby. A fetus is not a baby.

What's your position on the morning after pill? Let me guess, you're against it.

You continually put fetal tissue ahead of the life of the woman.

[revelarts]

That isn't true. Plenty of women get pregnant because their contraception failed. I suppose if you're a moral absolutist, you don't think women should have sex in the first place.

Our Sexual organs are built to reproduce, they are sometime called reproductive organs.
Whenever we have sex , even if it's only intended for pleasure, WE TAKE THE CONSCIOUS RISK, that we may produce a child.
Morally, when a child is conceived we are morally obligated to OUR child.

A right to pleasure does not trump the responsibility of owning the natural consequence of it. A human being.

put simply, We shouldn't kill a child becuase we just wanted to have fun. It's wrong, bad karma windsong.

[logroller]

That isn't true. Plenty of women get pregnant because their contraception failed. I suppose if you're a moral absolutist, you don't think women should have sex in the first place.
I'm pretty sure the vast majority of women get pregnant from having sex with a man. As Rev points out, its a conscious decision to engage in the acts which result in pregnancy... turkey basting notwithstanding.



Our Sexual organs are built to reproduce, they are sometime called reproductive organs.
Whenever we have sex , even if it's only intended for pleasure, WE TAKE THE CONSCIOUS RISK, that we may produce a child.
Morally, when a child is conceived we are morally obligated to OUR child.

A right to pleasure does not trump the responsibility of owning the natural consequence of it. A human being.

put simply, We shouldn't kill a child becuase we just wanted to have fun. It's wrong, bad karma windsong.
:clap:
Just wanted to point, IMO, the above is not a prochoice/prolife argument; unless you think government is charged with enforcing morality. I'm a bit into liberty to accept such a state role.

[Wind Song]

I'm pretty sure the vast majority of women get pregnant from having sex with a man. As Rev points out, its a conscious decision to engage in the acts which result in pregnancy... turkey basting notwithstanding.



:clap:
Just wanted to point, IMO, the above is not a prochoice/prolife argument; unless you think government is charged with enforcing morality. I'm a bit into liberty to accept such a state role.

It's a conscious decision to engage in sex and to use contraception. You blame the woman when the method fails. I wouldn't have an abortion, I wouldn't advise anyone to have one, unless her life is in danger, and I wouldn't judge a woman who makes that terrible decision as a murderer.

The morning after pill is not the murder of a child. It is the interruption of a fertilized egg so that it doesn't attach to the uterus.

I take it that if it was up to you, when a woman has an unplanned pregnancy she should be march into pregnancy prison for nine months regardless of circumstance.
(yes, I'm exaggerating to make a point)

It's a personal decision. The fundies don't own all women's bodies. A woman has a right to a safe choice. Criminalizing abortion will lead to more women's deaths from unsafe procedures and still not save any fetal life.

[Wind Song]

Our Sexual organs are built to reproduce, they are sometime called reproductive organs.
Whenever we have sex , even if it's only intended for pleasure, WE TAKE THE CONSCIOUS RISK, that we may produce a child.
Morally, when a child is conceived we are morally obligated to OUR child.

A right to pleasure does not trump the responsibility of owning the natural consequence of it. A human being.

put simply, We shouldn't kill a child becuase we just wanted to have fun. It's wrong, bad karma windsong.

When you have a uterus, get back to me.

[revelarts]

When you have a uterus, get back to me.

When it's ok to murder people who are inconvenient get back to me.

[Wind Song]

When it's ok to murder people who are inconvenient get back to me.


The morning after pill isn't murder.

[logroller]

You blame the woman when the method fails.

I'll not tolerate you stating such falsities. I've three children I proudly claim. I've the utmost respect for women and can tell you that my sister had an abortion and it forever haunts her. I don't blame the woman for getting pregnant; I just don't want them to punish themselves. You wanna play rough, that's fine. But I'll see to it that every post you make is followed with a response steel cage destined response. Now show me where I blamed the woman; otherwise, recant, publicly-- PM me a link, you've 24 hours....

[revelarts]

The morning after pill isn't murder.
Many agree with, you some do it unknowingly,
But if a contraceptive destroys a growing innocent Human Being on purpose, it is in fact murder,
put whatever euphemistic dress on it you like.

[Wind Song]

I'll not tolerate you stating such falsities. I've three children I proudly claim. I've the utmost respect for women and can tell you that my sister had an abortion and it forever haunts her. I don't blame the woman for getting pregnant; I just don't want them to punish themselves. You wanna play rough, that's fine. But I'll see to it that every post you make is followed with a response steel cage destined response. Now show me where I blamed the woman; otherwise, recant, publicly-- PM me a link, you've 24 hours....


What falsity? I completely agree with you that abortion is a terrible experience. It usually makes the woman very sad inside. I won't bother getting into the karma of killing and how that affects the mind.

[Wind Song]

Many agree with, you some do it unknowingly,
But if a contraceptive destroys a growing innocent Human Being on purpose, it is in fact murder,
put whatever euphemistic dress on it you like.


You're against contraception too? Wow, that is extreme. Killing happens in abortion, but it's not murder. Murder is a legal term.

[SassyLady]

What's the deal around this place? No one values a woman enough to think she has a right to determine what happens to her own body?

We value a child's life equally.

A woman has a choice to not create the child, therefore, she will not have to make a choice about ending a life. The child has no choice. What is it about this you cannot fathom?

[SassyLady]

That isn't true. Plenty of women get pregnant because their contraception failed. I suppose if you're a moral absolutist, you don't think women should have sex in the first place.

However, the majority of them get pregnant because they are irresponsible.

[SassyLady]

What isn't fair about the way you discuss this issue is that you refuse to acknowledge that a fertilized egg is not a child. A fertilized egg is not a baby. A fetus is not a baby.


Says who? You and the pro-choice advocates?

[Wind Song]

We value a child's life equally.

A woman has a choice to not create the child, therefore, she will not have to make a choice about ending a life. The child has no choice. What is it about this you cannot fathom?

I understand your position and respect it. I doubt you feel the same toward me and mine.

[SassyLady]

I understand your position and respect it. I doubt you feel the same toward me and mine.

I do respect your position WindSong, I just don't agree that everyone has to have the same position.

Trying to shame others into adopting your position by calling/likening them to terrorists or making blanket statements like accusing Logroller of blaming a women when she gets pregnant does engender empathy with your position.

[Wind Song]

Says who? You and the pro-choice advocates?


Excuse me. I thought we are allowed to disagree here.

[Wind Song]

I do respect your position WindSong, I just don't agree that everyone has to have the same position.

Trying to shame others into adopting your position by calling/likening them to terrorists or making blanket statements like accusing Logroller of blaming a women when she gets pregnant does engender empathy with your position.


Thank you. That's all I need.

[Kathianne]

What falsity? I completely agree with you that abortion is a terrible experience. It usually makes the woman very sad inside. I won't bother getting into the karma of killing and how that affects the mind.

So you think that abortion IS killing?

[Wind Song]

So you think that abortion IS killing?


Of course it is. What you're killing the day after is a fertilized egg, not a baby. Same is true for abortion in the first three months. It's killing, but it's not murder.

I'm opposed to killing AND I support women to make informed decisions about their own lives.

I'm sorry that people can't seem to understand that I can be against abortion spiritually and politically pro-choice.

[SassyLady]

Excuse me. I thought we are allowed to disagree here.

You made a declarative statement, as if it was a clearly accepted fact. I challenged that. You did not say "I believe fetuses are not babies". If you had, I might have said "I don't agree with you" and that might have been the end of us stating our positions.

Remember, when you paint with broad strokes or make declarative statements like this, we will challenge the validity of the statement.

[SassyLady]

Of course it is. What you're killing the day after is a fertilized egg, not a baby. Same is true for abortion in the first three months. It's killing, but it's not murder.

I'm opposed to killing AND I support women to make informed decisions about their own lives.

I'm sorry that people can't seem to understand that I can be against abortion spiritually and politically pro-choice.

Just like I am pro-life but believe in the death penalty. Some militant pro-choice people like to throw that in my face.

[Wind Song]

You made a declarative statement, as if it was a clearly accepted fact. I challenged that. You did not say "I believe fetuses are not babies". If you had, I might have said "I don't agree with you" and that might have been the end of us stating our positions.

Remember, when you paint with broad strokes or make declarative statements like this, we will challenge the validity of the statement.

OK. First of that, declarative sentence limitation. I will from now on preface my statements with "I believe" or "I think".

You presume I'm making mistakes on purpose. Not always.

[Wind Song]

I'm pretty sure the vast majority of women get pregnant from having sex with a man. As Rev points out, its a conscious decision to engage in the acts which result in pregnancy... turkey basting notwithstanding.



:clap:
Just wanted to point, IMO, the above is not a prochoice/prolife argument; unless you think government is charged with enforcing morality. I'm a bit into liberty to accept such a state role.


Please accept my apology. I thought you were blaming the women for getting pregnant. Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.

[Wind Song]

Just like I am pro-life but believe in the death penalty. Some militant pro-choice people like to throw that in my face.

I'm against the DP and I'm pro-choice. That's the way we humans are. Complex.

[PostmodernProphet]

But you probably think your sperm are people too.

no, actually I've studied enough biology to know the difference....

[Wind Song]

no, actually I've studied enough biology to know the difference....


Good for you. It's a joke in liberal circles.

[PostmodernProphet]

What isn't fair about the way you discuss this issue is that you refuse to acknowledge that a fertilized egg is not a child. A fertilized egg is not a baby. A fetus is not a baby.


that is another difference between us....I see no reason to distinguish between a child before the umbilical cord is cut and a child after the umbilical cord is cut.....most pro-choicers are the same way....they don't hold fetus showers......they don't buy each other fetus gifts......the woman doesn't call her husband at work and say "the rabbit died, we're going to have a fetus"......it's only after they've decided to kill it that the baby becomes something less than a baby......

[PostmodernProphet]

I won't bother getting into the karma of killing and how that affects the mind.

isn't that the problem we're trying to solve?.......the fact you won't get into it?.....

[Wind Song]

that is another difference between us....I see no reason to distinguish between a child before the umbilical cord is cut and a child after the umbilical cord is cut.....


It's not a child the day after. It's a fertilized egg that hasn't implanted in the uterus yet.

I think you expect me to alter my deeply held beliefs to adopt yours. That's not going to happen anymore than I'm going to change your beliefs.

I was in a women's group with the pro-life and pro-choice women for YEARS. We never changed each others views but we came to find affection and respect for each other.

Is that possible with your side on this forum?

[PostmodernProphet]

Good for you. It's a joke in liberal circles.

I consider most liberals to be jokes....

[Wind Song]

isn't that the problem we're trying to solve?.......the fact you won't get into it?.....


Not at all. If I felt you respected my position I would discuss my spiritual beliefs regarding karma and abortion with you.

You don't respect me because I'm not a moral absolutist.

[Wind Song]

I consider most liberals to be jokes....


And you wonder why our conversation won't progress. Your post sounds haughty.

[PostmodernProphet]

It's not a child the day after. It's a fertilized egg that hasn't implanted in the uterus yet.

yes, I know.....perhaps you will have noticed that just as you have tried to frame the issue of abortion in terms of only the first day, I in turn have framed it in terms of the last day......hopefully, doing so has made you realize that the real problem lies in the other 8 months and 28 days.....if not, I will make a bargain with you......I will allow you to abort as many unborn children as you wish within the first 24 hours following sex so long as you agree to refrain from killing any starting with the second day.....




Is that possible with your side on this forum?

speaking only for myself, no....I could never be a close friend with anyone who advocated the continuance of legal abortion.....I'm sorry, I just cannot accept the possibility of any humanity in any such person.....

[Kathianne]

It's not a child the day after. It's a fertilized egg that hasn't implanted in the uterus yet.

I think you expect me to alter my deeply held beliefs to adopt yours. That's not going to happen anymore than I'm going to change your beliefs.

I was in a women's group with the pro-life and pro-choice women for YEARS. We never changed each others views but we came to find affection and respect for each other.

Is that possible with your side on this forum?

So? If implanted in uterus, now it's a child? After 3 months? After 6 months? Or are you with Obama that after birth abortions are A-Ok?

http://spectator.org/archives/2012/02/14/obamas-dupes-the-presidents-pr

[PostmodernProphet]

And you wonder why our conversation won't progress. Your post sounds haughty.

ah, so you've just told me I was so ignorant that I didn't know a sperm wasn't a human being, you've stated it's a common joke among liberals and you're worried that I am the one who is haughty?......

I will forgive you, because you're a liberal, and liberals aren't very bright......perhaps you simply don't know any better......

[Wind Song]

ah, so you've just told me I was so ignorant that I didn't know a sperm wasn't a human being, you've stated it's a common joke among liberals and you're worried that I am the one who is haughty?......

I will forgive you, because you're a liberal, and liberals aren't very bright......perhaps you simply don't know any better......

What if we started over?

You stop calling me stupid and I'll stop springing dumb liberal jokes on you?

[Kathianne]

What if we started over?

You stop calling me stupid and I'll stop springing dumb liberal jokes on you?

and you take back what you said?

[PostmodernProphet]

What if we started over?

You stop calling me stupid and I'll stop springing dumb liberal jokes on you?

only if I can keep calling liberals stupid.....that's a hurdle I cannot leap.....

[Wind Song]

yes, I know.....perhaps you will have noticed that just as you have tried to frame the issue of abortion in terms of only the first day, I in turn have framed it in terms of the last day......hopefully, doing so has made you realize that the real problem lies in the other 8 months and 28 days.....if not, I will make a bargain with you......I will allow you to abort as many unborn children as you wish within the first 24 hours following sex so long as you agree to refrain from killing any starting with the second day.....




speaking only for myself, no....I could never be a close friend with anyone who advocated the continuance of legal abortion.....I'm sorry, I just cannot accept the possibility of any humanity in any such person.....


I see. Well, there is no point in talking then. You aren't interested in being friends inspite of our differences.

BTW. I don't advocate the continuance of legal abortion. I accept that women have and will always exercise that option and I'd prefer women at least have medically safe procedures.

Take care, it's been interesting meeting you. Perhaps if you ever discuss other topics we may one day find common ground.

[PostmodernProphet]

I see. Well, there is no point in talking then. You aren't interested in being friends inspite of our differences.

BTW. I don't advocate the continuance of legal abortion. I accept that women have and will always exercise that option and I'd prefer women at least have medically safe procedures.

Take care, it's been interesting meeting you. Perhaps if you ever discuss other topics we may one day find common ground.


perhaps I didn't get the message that you wanted to be friends what with all the "you're a fanatic", "you're the Taliban", "you're a hater", "you think you own women", "you just want women to have babies against their will", "you think you're God", "he's a holy saint" rhetoric....

[PostmodernProphet]

BTW. I don't advocate the continuance of legal abortion.

so, now you're saying you are favor of ending legal abortion?......

[Wind Song]

perhaps I didn't get the message that you wanted to be friends what with all the "you're a fanatic", "you're the Taliban", "you're a hater", "you think you own women", "you just want women to have babies against their will", "you think you're God", "he's a holy saint" rhetoric....

Yes, I said all those things and I've been paying for it all day.

Sounds like if it's up to you, I'd get a life sentence for it.

[PostmodernProphet]

Sounds like if it's up to you, I'd get a life sentence for it.

well, I don't believe in the death penalty......I read a story years ago about a woman in Texas who became a Christian after 24 years on death row and thought, "if the death penalty had been carried out right away she would have spent eternity in hell".....now I'm against the death penalty.........so I guess I need to give you time to repent as well.....you will, of course, have to repent....{especially that part where you called me a fundamentalist}........

[Wind Song]

well, I don't believe in the death penalty......I read a story years ago about a woman in Texas who became a Christian after 24 years on death row and thought, "if the death penalty had been carried out right away she would have spent eternity in hell.....now I'm against the death penalty.........so I guess I need to give you time to repent as well.....you will, of course, have to repent....{especially that part where you called me a fundamentalist}........


Would you like me to tell you stories of death row inmates who've become Buddhist?

Sorry hon. I don't do "repentance".

I do admit a mistake, regretting it, vowing not to do it again and bringing the light in.

Judgement is YOUR path, not mine.

[PostmodernProphet]

Judgement is YOUR path, not mine.

I offered you a chance, you insult me again....

[Wind Song]

I offered you a chance, you insult me again....


I'm sorry. How is that an insult? Isn't it true?

Isn't your path one about judgment? Who's "worthy" and who isn't?

The "good" babies deserve to live and the "bad" women deserve to die in unsafe abortions?

[PostmodernProphet]

ignored....

[Kathianne]

CH has been interjecting himself, under the guise of 'helping' he's preventing some from making ties that might at least lead to meaningful discussion.

Try folks, ignore when appropriate.

[Wind Song]

Bad and good, right and wrong. That's the judgmental path. Moral absolutism is my way or the highway. No shades of gray, everything black and white.

You can't be friends with someone who has a different spiritual view than you have.

I know many wonderful Christians and they completely respect and accept our differences.

[Kathianne]

Bad and good, right and wrong. That's the judgmental path.

Yep, truth there, one never knows.

I do know though I didn't call him or anyone else names. He's posted anti-ageism and the term 'skank', sounds derogatory to me. You?

[fj1200]

Here's what I've learned about you from this post.

1. You call anyone who is "pro-choice" a "pro-abortion" folk. That isn't true.
2. Overturning Roe will not limit the number of abortions that are performed. What will happen is they will all go underground, and women will have unsafe procedures.
3. You mock other religions position without trying to understand what it means to not be a moral absolutist. You demand respect for the anti-choice side and you have zero respect for opponents.
4. You have incorrectly stated my position. Of course there is human potential in a human fetus.
5. I don't know what you're talking about in the life is greater than convenience argument. It's a position I find untenable.


What's the deal around this place? No one values a woman enough to think she has a right to determine what happens to her own body?

You haven't learned those things about me:
1. Not true, I used "pro-abortion" in response to your hyperbole.
2. Not true, overturning Roe puts the decisions at the state level. Do you really think every state is going to outlaw abortion?
3. Not true, everyone will be able to voice their religious conscience when the states create their own rules for abortion.
4. Not true, I understand your position completely.
5. That was your characterization of PMP's position.

The deal around this place? We feel that women are wise enough to make proper decisions when the full ramifications of their, and their partner's, actions are taken into account.

[fj1200]

The morning after pill isn't murder.

I predict that it would receive 80+% approval by voters. So enough with the ridiculous statements.

[fj1200]

Good for you. It's a joke in liberal circles.

A joke based on false premises? Actually that explains a lot. :poke:

[fj1200]

I was in a women's group with the pro-life and pro-choice women for YEARS. We never changed each others views but we came to find affection and respect for each other.

Is that possible with your side on this forum?

Of course, but did you continually misstate her position, tell her she didn't want women to have sex, and call her an American Taliban?

[PostmodernProphet]

Of course, but did you continually misstate her position, tell her she didn't want women to have sex, and call her an American Taliban?

and you have mislabeled me a 'her'.....

[tailfins]

Yes, I said all those things and I've been paying for it all day.

Sounds like if it's up to you, I'd get a life sentence for it.

I'm willing to let you plea out with one day's community service. DON'T be a repeat offender or you'll have to work the phone bank at an abortion alternatives center!

[Wind Song]

You haven't learned those things about me:
1. Not true, I used "pro-abortion" in response to your hyperbole.
2. Not true, overturning Roe puts the decisions at the state level. Do you really think every state is going to outlaw abortion?
3. Not true, everyone will be able to voice their religious conscience when the states create their own rules for abortion.
4. Not true, I understand your position completely.
5. That was your characterization of PMP's position.

The deal around this place? We feel that women are wise enough to make proper decisions when the full ramifications of their, and their partner's, actions are taken into account.


1. I am not "pro-abortion".

2. Yes, I think if fundies have their way, abortion will be illegal in every state.

3 We will not be able to exercise conscience had have safe medical procedures when all states, (thanks to the fundies) outlaw abortion.

4. YOu don't understand being anti-abortion and pro-choice, which is my position.

5. ?PP is in his own narrow universe.

[Wind Song]

I'm willing to let you plea out with one day's community service. DON'T be a repeat offender or you'll have to work the phone bank at an abortion alternatives center!


Hahaha. Hell is coming to a forum to enjoy yourself and getting sentenced by a lynch mob.

[Wind Song]

A joke based on false premises? Actually that explains a lot. :poke:


It explains how little humor the right wing has.

[tailfins]

Hahaha. Hell is coming to a forum to enjoy yourself and getting sentenced by a lynch mob.

I shouldn't have to, but I'm going to state the obvious: Any statement I make directed at you personally should be considered a joke. If you take it for more than that, the onus is on you.


Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDTZ7iX4vTQ&ob=av2n

Thanks to anyone who can see the connection I'm making here

[fj1200]

and you have mislabeled me a 'her'.....

You weren't the "her" in my post. Perchance I fail in bolding. :)


1. I am not "pro-abortion".

2. Yes, I think if fundies have their way, abortion will be illegal in every state.

3 We will not be able to exercise conscience had have safe medical procedures when all states, (thanks to the fundies) outlaw abortion.

4. YOu don't understand being anti-abortion and pro-choice, which is my position.

5. ?PP is in his own narrow universe.

1. OK. By protestation or by outcome?
2. They will not have their way. Paranoia is not a place from which to make policy.
3. See #2. Unless you think NY or CA will outlaw abortion. :rolleyes:
4. Yes, I understand your position.
5. PMP explained his position very well.

[fj1200]

It explains how little humor the right wing has.

Or how the left wing needs to concoct stories at which to laugh?

[Wind Song]

Or how the left wing needs to concoct stories at which to laugh?

You'd have to know Tom. He could say anything and make us laugh. He's the one who came out with the "sperm are people too".

Too bad you can't appreciate that we, (those dreaded liberals) can laugh too. Don't you see how ridiculous some of the pro-lifers sound sometimes? If I didn't laugh, I'd be crying in my soup.

[Wind Song]

You weren't the "her" in my post. Perchance I fail in bolding. :)



1. OK. By protestation or by outcome?
2. They will not have their way. Paranoia is not a place from which to make policy.
3. See #2. Unless you think NY or CA will outlaw abortion. :rolleyes:
4. Yes, I understand your position.
5. PMP explained his position very well.

1. I'm not pro-abortion. I don't get your question by protestation or outcome.
2. Fundies are getting their way quite a bit. They own a lot of media, and they have a ton of money.
3. Fundies seek the recriminalization of abortion and they won't stop until they get it.
4. I doubt it.
5. He's your pal, not mine, and that's by HIS choice. He said he could NEVER friends with any who isn't a hardline anti-abortionist. He is willing to acknowledge the humanness in his opponents.

[fj1200]

You'd have to know Tom. He could say anything and make us laugh. He's the one who came out with the "sperm are people too".

Too bad you can't appreciate that we, (those dreaded liberals) can laugh too. Don't you see how ridiculous some of the pro-lifers sound sometimes? If I didn't laugh, I'd be crying in my soup.

All of the liberals in my Sunday School class, including a rather prominent one, laugh quite often so yes, I can appreciate it. Also, you'd do well to stop making assumptions.

But yes, I have seen how those who hold positions on both sides can be quite ridiculous. "I was against it before I was for it."

[fj1200]

1. I'm not pro-abortion. I don't get your question by protestation or outcome.
2. Fundies are getting their way quite a bit. They own a lot of media, and they have a ton of money.
3. Fundies seek the recriminalization of abortion and they won't stop until they get it.
4. I doubt it.
5. He's your pal, not mine, and that's by HIS choice. He said he could NEVER friends with any who isn't a hardline anti-abortionist. He is willing to acknowledge the humanness in his opponents.

Anyway. :rolleyes:

[Wind Song]

All of the liberals in my Sunday School class, including a rather prominent one, laugh quite often so yes, I can appreciate it. Also, you'd do well to stop making assumptions.

But yes, I have seen how those who hold positions on both sides can be quite ridiculous. "I was against it before I was for it."


What assumption are you referring to?

[fj1200]

What assumption are you referring to?

Generally? All of them. Specifically? That I don't appreciate liberals laughing. You continually make assumptions that are incorrect.

[Wind Song]

Generally? All of them. Specifically? That I don't appreciate liberals laughing. You continually make assumptions that are incorrect.


I appreciate your willingness to point out a specific instance of me using an incorrect assumption. Please hear me. I cannot take criticism and correction all day long. Decide which hills you want to die on.

[fj1200]

I don't want anyone to die on a hill, I want all the chance to live.

[Wind Song]

I don't want anyone to die on a hill, I want all the chance to live.


It's an expression that means "choose your battles".

When I have twenty people on my case at the same time it's overwhelming. I do much better when someone takes a post and quotes the portion of it that they label as "assumption" or any of the other myriad criticisms.

All I can do is ask and say what makes it easier for me to process the request.

Why don't we ask more often, "what would a win-win situation be for both sides?