Working with Anger

[Wind Song]

Most of us either suppress anger or blast others with it. We've been educated to use the language of violence, not compassion, when we're angry. It is dangerous to think of anger as something to suppress or as something bad. Anger is one way to get at the cause of anger, which is our own unmet needs.

The first step is to recognize that the cause of anger is not what stimulated or triggered it. Anger is the response to the trigger. The cause of anger is the part of of that responds to the trigger, not the trigger itself.

Example: My dog likes to sniff around when we take a walk and prefers to poop anywhere but our property. Luckily, we live in the country, most properties are three to five acres in size. Most of us walk our dogs and accept that the dogs will poop on the perimeter of our large properties, usually not on anyone's actual lawn. A man I've never seen before jumps out of the bushes of my neighbor's property and starts to scream: "Are you going to let your dog crap there." This strange man is already angry, my dog and I haven't CAUSED his anger, but we have inadvertently triggered something in him that is now angry. Some need of his hasn't been met. He is blaming the anger he feels on my dog and me.

Now, let's shift to my response. I'm scared. This guy is very mad and I've never seen him before, and I've lived across the road from this property for five years and know the owner of the property, who also walks her dog and has never complained. I'm now scared and angry, and I respond, "who are YOU and how is it any of your business?"

I put the above illustration in because I'm interested in learning new ways to respond when I'm angry.

[Wind Song]

Anger is like a red warning light on the dashboard. The goal is not just to turn off the light.

[darin]

The man wasn't asking "Are you going to let your dog poop there" - he was probably saying "I don't like animals pooping in my yard! Acknowledge me! Respect me!"

Classic transference:

He was building his case to justify him being out of control.

“Are YOU” – right there the man is doing two things: Blaming YOU for his loss of control firstly. After all, he’s REASONABLE. Calm! Rational. But YOU…YOU are the one with the problem (by letting your dog poop). Secondly, the man is GIVING CONTROL of his emotions to YOU. He doesn’t realize that, however. He’d probably deny it.

The man is demanding respect. Perhaps there are elements in the man’s life shaping him to become, or that have helped him become, a respect-needy person. Perhaps his parents placed importance upon ‘Rules’ and ‘Fair’ and ‘Property’? Could be he grew up with siblings and was often chastised for using the property of another? “No, AngryBilly, keep your hands on YOUR side of the car!” or “AngryBilly, that is your BROTHER’S glass, do not use it!”

Anywho – my point is, our emotions or attitudes are ALWAYS a choice; much like our actions. That’s why Homosexuality MUST be a choice. Its why bank-robbing is a choice. It’s why ANY willful action upon stimulus is ultimately, a choice.

[Wind Song]

The man wasn't asking "Are you going to let your dog poop there" - he was probably saying "I don't like animals pooping in my yard! Acknowledge me! Respect me!"

Classic transference:

He was building his case to justify him being out of control.

“Are YOU” – right there the man is doing two things: Blaming YOU for his loss of control firstly. After all, he’s REASONABLE. Calm! Rational. But YOU…YOU are the one with the problem (by letting your dog poop). Secondly, the man is GIVING CONTROL of his emotions to YOU. He doesn’t realize that, however. He’d probably deny it.

The man is demanding respect. Perhaps there are elements in the man’s life shaping him to become, or that have helped him become, a respect-needy person. Perhaps his parents placed importance upon ‘Rules’ and ‘Fair’ and ‘Property’? Could be he grew up with siblings and was often chastised for using the property of another? “No, AngryBilly, keep your hands on YOUR side of the car!” or “AngryBilly, that is your BROTHER’S glass, do not use it!”

Anywho – my point is, our emotions or attitudes are ALWAYS a choice; much like our actions. That’s why Homosexuality MUST be a choice. Its why bank-robbing is a choice. It’s why ANY willful action upon stimulus is ultimately, a choice.


I was following you up until your last paragraph. Anger isn't really a choice, (choice is usually, express it or suppress it), but how it's used is a choice. If the arising of anger is a signal to unmet needs, it changes the whole paradigm. Anger can be a skillful means.

Homosexuality and bank robbing have nothing to do with it.

[cadet]

Anger is like a red warning light on the dashboard. The goal is not just to turn off the light.

I've noticed that my entire family has some sort of anger problem. I may be a young pup, but hear me out.

When i was younger i choked my little brother, i noticed i had a problem (i was probably about 7 or 8.) so i decided to repress it. Once you start to repress one emotion, the rest follow. i took up wrestling, that helped me keep from blowing up.
During my sophomore year in high school i finally blew up to my "friends" for making fun of me. i cussed every single one of them out. screamed and called them every name in the book.
Was this the right thing to do? probably not, but it felt great.
after this little episode, i said screw you to them, and haven't talked to theme since.

Since then, I've learned the best way to control your anger is to let it out when it happens. that way it doesn't come out in a huge rush of anger. and it comes out in little bursts. You are human, you will get angry, and it's best to stomp out the problem before it get's too big.

Now i'm not saying you have to scream and yell every time someone does something you don't like, but just say "Hey, stop it."

as far as i know, there's two types of anger, protective, and misplaced.

misplaced is getting mad at someone for something stupid, letting small things get under your skin.

protective anger is a bit nicer in my opinion, standing up for people, getting pissed when people are hurt. or standing up for yourself.

My opinion, scream your head off at him. he's not almighty and allpowerful. and your not a doormat. stand up for yourself!

[darin]

I was following you up until your last paragraph. Anger isn't really a choice, (choice is usually, express it or suppress it), but how it's used is a choice. If the arising of anger is a signal to unmet needs, it changes the whole paradigm. Anger can be a skillful means.

Homosexuality and bank robbing have nothing to do with it.

Of course its a choice. To BE angry one decides to allow an angry response. ANY response to ANY urge is self-controlled or not.

Homosexuality is a response to a feeling one might enjoy that behaviour. Bank robbing is a response to a feeling one might enjoy money.

Anger is a choice. Happiness is a choice.

[Wind Song]

I've noticed that my entire family has some sort of anger problem. I may be a young pup, but hear me out.

When i was younger i choked my little brother, i noticed i had a problem (i was probably about 7 or 8.) so i decided to repress it. Once you start to repress one emotion, the rest follow. i took up wrestling, that helped me keep from blowing up.
During my sophomore year in high school i finally blew up to my "friends" for making fun of me. i cussed every single one of them out. screamed and called them every name in the book.
Was this the right thing to do? probably not, but it felt great.
after this little episode, i said screw you to them, and haven't talked to theme since.

Since then, I've learned the best way to control your anger is to let it out when it happens. that way it doesn't come out in a huge rush of anger. and it comes out in little bursts. You are human, you will get angry, and it's best to stomp out the problem before it get's too big.

Now i'm not saying you have to scream and yell every time someone does something you don't like, but just say "Hey, stop it."

as far as i know, there's two types of anger, protective, and misplaced.

misplaced is getting mad at someone for something stupid, letting small things get under your skin.

protective anger is a bit nicer in my opinion, standing up for people, getting pissed when people are hurt. or standing up for yourself.

My opinion, scream your head off at him. he's not almighty and allpowerful. and your not a doormat. stand up for yourself!

As it turned out, I did scream my head off at him. He screamed back, using a lot of hate speech. I called him an "ugly man". He hit me. I called the police, and they did nothing. That cop is not one of my favorites.

[Wind Song]

Of course its a choice. To BE angry one decides to allow an angry response. ANY response to ANY urge is self-controlled or not.

Homosexuality is a response to a feeling one might enjoy that behaviour. Bank robbing is a response to a feeling one might enjoy money.

Anger is a choice. Happiness is a choice.


Anger isn't a choice. Being with anger is a choice. Learning to use anger to find out what needs aren't being met is a choice. Anger is just a feeling. You can choose to feel it, or suppress it or learn to use it in skillful ways.

What you can't do is choose not to have it. Chances are good if anger is used to find unmet needs that anger will be fleeting.

[darin]

As it turned out, I did scream my head off at him. He screamed back, using a lot of hate speech. I called him an "ugly man". He hit me. I called the police, and they did nothing.

:bsflag::bsflag::bsflag::bsflag::bsflag::bs1::bs1: :bs1::bs1::bs1:

I hope you're not trying to make folks believe that.

[Wind Song]

:bsflag::bsflag::bsflag::bsflag::bsflag::bs1::bs1: :bs1::bs1::bs1:

I hope you're not trying to make folks believe that.

You can choose to believe it or not, but it is the truth of what happened. Our local police didn't even write up an incident report even though he spent almost two hours with us.

[ConHog]

You can choose to believe it or not, but it is the truth of what happened. Our local police didn't even write up an incident report even though he spent almost two hours with us.

BS - Police MUST file a report on every call. Even if all they did was roll out there and tell some kids to turn down the music, they still have to file a report. You may be right about no charges being filed, but a contact report WAS filed.

PS you're dog is pathetic. If a man ever hit my wife in front of Max he'd be a dead man, and I don't believe I'm exaggerating I do think that Dane would try to kill anyone who laid a hand on her; it took him years to learn not to react when I spank her. :dance:

[Wind Song]

BS - Police MUST file a report on every call. Even if all they did was roll out there and tell some kids to turn down the music, they still have to file a report. You may be right about no charges being filed, but a contact report WAS filed.

PS you're dog is pathetic. If a man ever hit my wife in front of Max he'd be a dead man, and I don't believe I'm exaggerating I do think that Dane would try to kill anyone who laid a hand on her; it took him years to learn not to react when I spank her. :dance:


We checked. No report was filed. You're criticising my old dog? The one who died? LOL. Whatever.

[ConHog]

We checked. No report was filed. You're criticising my old dog? The one who died? LOL. Whatever.

Oh for God's sakes Dorothy. Must you turn everything into some sort of drama? I didn't know or care that you were talking about you dog that had died. I was just teasing you about a wimpy dog.

[Wind Song]

Oh for God's sakes Dorothy. Must you turn everything into some sort of drama? I didn't know or care that you were talking about you dog that had died. I was just teasing you about a wimpy dog.

Don't be silly, Conhog. Take responsibility for your own reaction to my post. I take responsibility for mine to yours.

Daisy wasn't a wimpy dog, she just wasn't an aggressive dog. You value aggressive dogs, I don't.

We haven't gotten to the point in our posting life that I know when you're teasing or not. Lighten up. I'm still grieving. I have to pick up her cremains today from the vet.

[tailfins]

As it turned out, I did scream my head off at him. He screamed back, using a lot of hate speech. I called him an "ugly man". He hit me. I called the police, and they did nothing. That cop is not one of my favorites.

If you called me an "ugly man", I would bust out laughing. I would then inform you that in spite of being an ugly man, you still don't meet my low standards. "Ugly man"? That sounds like something Steve Urkel would say.

I had a similar incident to yours on a road trip except he called me a Gringo before hitting me, the cop asked me if I had any plans to return to the state anytime soon. He said if I couldn't travel thousands of miles to testify, he couldn't file a charge. At least I had the satisfaction of seeing him banned from the business where it took place.

When I saw the title of your post, it sounded like dealing with a short-tempered co-worker.

[Wind Song]

If you called me an "ugly man", I would bust out laughing. I would then inform you that in spite of being an ugly man, you still don't meet my low standards. "Ugly man"? That sounds like something Steve Urkel would say.

When I saw the title of your post, it sounded like dealing with a short-tempered co-worker.


I called him an ugly man because of the way he was acting. What I needed to do in the situation was find out what it was I needed and he needed. Calling him ugly didn't help anything.

[tailfins]

I once worked with Anger. He was an immigrant from Fucking, Austria - see map below

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Fucking,+Austria&aq=0&oq=Fuck&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=67.461178,107.138672&vpsrc=6&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Fucking,+Braunau+am+Inn,+Upper+Austria,+Aust ria&ll=48.067297,12.863274&spn=0.113911,0.209255&t=m&z=13&iwloc=A&ved=0CBEQpQY&sa=X&ei=AxaXT8KGA9HR8QaJv5yNDA

[DragonStryk72]

Most of us either suppress anger or blast others with it. We've been educated to use the language of violence, not compassion, when we're angry. It is dangerous to think of anger as something to suppress or as something bad. Anger is one way to get at the cause of anger, which is our own unmet needs.

The first step is to recognize that the cause of anger is not what stimulated or triggered it. Anger is the response to the trigger. The cause of anger is the part of of that responds to the trigger, not the trigger itself.

Example: My dog likes to sniff around when we take a walk and prefers to poop anywhere but our property. Luckily, we live in the country, most properties are three to five acres in size. Most of us walk our dogs and accept that the dogs will poop on the perimeter of our large properties, usually not on anyone's actual lawn. A man I've never seen before jumps out of the bushes of my neighbor's property and starts to scream: "Are you going to let your dog crap there." This strange man is already angry, my dog and I haven't CAUSED his anger, but we have inadvertently triggered something in him that is now angry. Some need of his hasn't been met. He is blaming the anger he feels on my dog and me.

Now, let's shift to my response. I'm scared. This guy is very mad and I've never seen him before, and I've lived across the road from this property for five years and know the owner of the property, who also walks her dog and has never complained. I'm now scared and angry, and I respond, "who are YOU and how is it any of your business?"

I put the above illustration in because I'm interested in learning new ways to respond when I'm angry.

WELL FUCK YOU!!!!!..... okay, I'll stop being a smartass now.

I actually have this problem with one of the players in my D&D group. Most of the time, Marc is a ton of fun to hand with and game with, but when he loses his temper, it's thermal, and he isn't hard to provoke. He has series anger management issues, and me and him actually came to laying hands at one point, when he was screaming at me, and my girlfriend tried to step between us. Well, Marc grabbed her and shoves her out of the way.... and that's when I got my Irish up. A moment later, Marc's bent over the table, and I've got him in an arm lock behind his back and informing him that if he ever lays hands on someone, I'll break his fucking arm.

In this case, we had two different forms of anger: Marc's explosive anger, versus my directed anger. The biggest issue I've seen with anger is the tendency that people have to be angry at things that are unrelated to what they're actually angry at.

The worst thing you can do is to try and decide what it is they're angry at, because really, it doesn't matter. It matters what you are angry at, and how you handle that anger. Staying focused is probably the best you can do, really. Stay on point, and don't try to steer the incident, simply be clear on your end of things.

[Wind Song]

Dragon--

What you did wouldn't work for me. You matched violence with violence. I'm looking for alternatives to violence.

sky

[DragonStryk72]

Dragon--

What you did wouldn't work for me. You matched violence with violence. I'm looking for alternatives to violence.

sky

Um, the guy wasn't violent in your scenario. Getting angry, as I said if you hadn't skipped the point, isn't the problem, and the root of his anger is not your problem. This isn't a shrink's office, you are not his counselor, or even his bartender. The worst mistake anyone makes in dealing with angry people is trying to calm them, because 9 out of 10 says he's going to realize what you're doing, and get angrier. That's why the first bit of training in Customer Service is pretty much to never tell someone to "Calm Down". It never works.

With Marc, I only stayed angry at him, and only as long as his irrational anger persisted. After that it was done. I took a walk, hit the 7-11, and bought my girlfriend a 5 lb. bag of black jelly bellies to make her feel better. Marc, once I calm enough, received an email stating the requirements for him to return to the table.

[Wind Song]

Um, the guy wasn't violent in your scenario. Getting angry, as I said if you hadn't skipped the point, isn't the problem, and the root of his anger is not your problem. This isn't a shrink's office, you are not his counselor, or even his bartender. The worst mistake anyone makes in dealing with angry people is trying to calm them, because 9 out of 10 says he's going to realize what you're doing, and get angrier. That's why the first bit of training in Customer Service is pretty much to never tell someone to "Calm Down". It never works.

With Marc, I only stayed angry at him, and only as long as his irrational anger persisted. After that it was done. I took a walk, hit the 7-11, and bought my girlfriend a 5 lb. bag of black jelly bellies to make her feel better. Marc, once I calm enough, received an email stating the requirements for him to return to the table.


What wouldn't work for me is what you did, which was take a man's arm and put it behind him while threatening him.

[Kathianne]

What wouldn't work for me is what you did, which was take a man's arm and put it behind him while threatening him.

LOL! His reaction was immediate, you'd love to have the man charged with assault and 'hate crime.'

[DragonStryk72]

What wouldn't work for me is what you did, which was take a man's arm and put it behind him while threatening him.

Ah good, you still skipped the point. Get back to me when you read the whole thing, and not just the part you don't like.

[Kathianne]

Would this be a 'hate crime?'

http://dailycaller.com/2012/04/24/and-now-its-time-to-play-how-deep-did-they-bury-the-lede/


MOBILE, Alabama — Mobile police need your help to catch a mob that beat Matthew Owens so badly that he’s in critical condition.



According to police, Owens fussed at some kids playing basketball in the middle of Delmar Drive about 8:30 Saturday night. They say the kids left and a group of adults returned, armed with everything but the kitchen sink.


Police tell News 5 the suspects used chairs, pipes and paint cans to beat Owens.



Owens’ sister, Ashley Parker, saw the attack. “It was the scariest thing I have ever witnessed.” Parker says 20 people, all African American, attacked her brother on the front porch of his home, using “brass buckles, paint cans and anything they could get their hands on.”


Police will only say “multiple people” are involved.
What Parker says happened next could make the fallout from the brutal beating even worse. As the attackers walked away, leaving Owen bleeding on the ground, Parker says one of them said “Now that’s justice for Trayvon.” Trayvon Martin is the unarmed teenager police say was shot and killed February 26 by neighborhood watch captain George Zimmerman in Samford, Florida.


...

[Wind Song]

LOL! His reaction was immediate, you'd love to have the man charged with assault and 'hate crime.'

Are you asking me or telling me what I'd love? I said it doesn't work for me to use violence against violence.

[Kathianne]

Are you asking me or telling me what I'd love? I said it doesn't work for me to use violence against violence.

So, his hitting you wasn't a 'hate crime'?

[Wind Song]

So, his hitting you wasn't a 'hate crime'?


What are you talking about?

[Kathianne]

What are you talking about?

Sorry, carry over from another board, where the lesbian was claiming a hate crime. My mistake, shouldn't go from one board to another.

[Wind Song]

Sorry, carry over from another board, where the lesbian was claiming a hate crime. My mistake, shouldn't go from one board to another.

That's right.

[Kathianne]

That's right.

Yes, correct. Doesn't change the fact that you were saying the guy should have been charged with a hate crime.

[Wind Song]

Yes, correct. Doesn't change the fact that you were saying the guy should have been charged with a hate crime.

You're off topic. Go discuss hate crime on the other forum.

[Kathianne]

You're off topic. Go discuss hate crime on the other forum.

Now THAT would be for the other board members to decide, not you nor I.

[Wind Song]

Now THAT would be for the other board members to decide, not you nor I.


Honestly, why are you talking to me at all? You don't like me and you have no respect for my views.

[fj1200]

I called him an ugly man because of the way he was acting. What I needed to do in the situation was find out what it was I needed and he needed. Calling him ugly didn't help anything.

He "needed" your dog not to crap there. Seems pretty simple.

[Wind Song]

He "needed" your dog not to crap there. Seems pretty simple.


No, that wasn't it at all. The rageaholic wasn't the landowner. I've lived across the street from the landowner for five years and she's never objected to any of us neighbors curbing our dogs in the periphery of our properties.

If she had objected, I would have picked up the poop.

This is way out in the country and NOBODY picks up poop. There are wild animals pooping everywhere, for one thing. The actual property owner walks her dog off leash and her dog poops whereever it chooses.

[fj1200]

No, that wasn't it at all. The rageaholic wasn't the landowner.

Doesn't matter. It may have been irrational but it's what he needed.

[Wind Song]

Doesn't matter. It may have been irrational but it's what he needed.

He probably needed respect, he may have needed power. Needs aren't about what somebody else SHOULD or shouldn't be doing. Unfortunately, the way he went about it was ineffective in getting his needs met. We asked him who is was and he wouldn't tell us. He asked us who we were and we told him and pointed to where we live.

Had he calmly introduced himself, told us where he lived and what he wanted it would have been far less costly to him and to us.

The guy is the landowners disabled son who is living in a fifth wheel on her property illegally. He's an alcoholic.

[darin]

For fuck's sake.

[Wind Song]

For fuck's sake.


If you don't like the view, ignore me.

[fj1200]

Needs aren't about what somebody else SHOULD or shouldn't be doing.

The only "need" of his you could control was where your dog crapped.

[Wind Song]

The only "need" of his you could control was where your dog crapped.

First of all, it's not about "controlling" someone else's need. It's about meeting the other person empathically, and NOT seeing him as an enemy, but a human being with needs.

It's all after the fact now, and the dog has died, there is no reason for this man to hate us anymore, yet he still does.

I'm excited by and interested in NVC program that transforms anger into empathic compassion for ourselves and others.

Here is an excellent article on it.

http://www.naturalchild.org/marshall_rosenberg/ten_steps.html

The first step in working with anger is to recognize that the stimulus or trigger is not the CAUSE of anger. The cause of anger is the response or reaction to an external or internal trigger.

[darin]

If you don't like the view, ignore me.

You are just SO FULL of shit. You exhibit signs of confusion, anger, and attention-getting.


A dog walked past me today - how nice, eh?

- Yes, WindSong, its nice to see dogs.

Did I mention he bit me?

- No way! You okay

Doctor refused to treat me

- weird

Dog also was carrying a camel and a leather-bound book of recipes

- uh....

Stop hating and name calling! I can't STAND you, you twit!

- oh my!

etc...ad nauseam.

[Wind Song]

You are just SO FULL of shit. You exhibit signs of confusion, anger, and attention-getting.


A dog walked past me today - how nice, eh?

- Yes, WindSong, its nice to see dogs.

Did I mention he bit me?

- No way! You okay

Doctor refused to treat me

- weird

Dog also was carrying a camel and a leather-bound book of recipes

- uh....

Stop hating and name calling! I can't STAND you, you twit!

- oh my!

etc...ad nauseam.

OK, let's see if I can figure out the needs you're trying to meet by lashing out at me with insults. Offering a diagnosis of someone is a way to disconnect with feelings and needs.

I'm going to try empathic communication with you. I will have to guess what you feel and what your needs are.

I'm guessing you're annoyed and frustrated by my posts. There may be something you think is unfair to you about my position. You may need to feel respected by me.

You don't like it when I tell stories from my own life experience. I will stop doing that. No more stories from my life.

[ConHog]

Are you asking me or telling me what I'd love? I said it doesn't work for me to use violence against violence.

Sometimes violence is necessary Sky.

Let me tell you a story about a drug dealer in Arkansas who bought one of his customer's 15 year old step daughter for $500 worth the meth. The dude threatened to kill her if we tried to take her away from him. Violence on our part saved her life. Would you have preferred we asked "pretty please give her back?"

[Wind Song]

Sometimes violence is necessary Sky.

Let me tell you a story about a drug dealer in Arkansas who bought one of his customer's 15 year old step daughter for $500 worth the meth. The dude threatened to kill her if we tried to take her away from him. Violence on our part saved her life. Would you have preferred we asked "pretty please give her back?"

Violence isn't an option for me.

[jimnyc]

Violence isn't an option for me.

But it is for some, and sometimes a necessity. You have your way, others have theirs. Live and let live. But it seems at times like you think everyone should live in your little world and do as you say.

[darin]

OK, let's see if I can figure out the needs you're trying to meet by lashing out at me with insults. Offering a diagnosis of someone is a way to disconnect with feelings and needs.

I'm going to try empathic communication with you. I will have to guess what you feel and what your needs are.

I'm guessing you're annoyed and frustrated by my posts. There may be something you think is unfair to you about my position. You may need to feel respected by me.

You don't like it when I tell stories from my own life experience. I will stop doing that. No more stories from my life.

I think you are making shit up. I think you are disingenuous. I don't want to be respected by you. I want you to respect the board enough to tell the truth, provide consistent good-faith posting, and not play the 'victim' card when your arguments are overwhelmed by facts, opinion, or technique.

[cadet]

Violence isn't an option for me.

Say screw you, or have your dog crap in your own yard.

[jimnyc]

I think you are making shit up. I think you are disingenuous.

Really? WS make stuff up in her posts? I never would have thunk it!

[Wind Song]

But it is for some, and sometimes a necessity. You have your way, others have theirs. Live and let live. But it seems at times like you think everyone should live in your little world and do as you say.

No, that is your interpretation. I am strong about my positiions and you think that means I think EVERYONE should think as I do.

"Live and let live" is all fine and dandy until you have some drunken idiot shooting up the neighborhood.

[ConHog]

I think you are making shit up. I think you are disingenuous. I don't want to be respected by you. I want you to respect the board enough to tell the truth, provide consistent good-faith posting, and not play the 'victim' card when your arguments are overwhelmed by facts, opinion, or technique.

Stop derailing the thread Nigguh........


:laugh2::dance::laugh2:

I'm just being an ass Darin, if that offended you feel free to delete it no hard feelings on my part. :coffee:

[ConHog]

Violence isn't an option for me.

So you would have told that girl's mom "sorry nothing we can do, she's his bitch now?"

[jimnyc]

No, that is your interpretation. I am strong about my positiions and you think that means I think EVERYONE should think as I do.

"Live and let live" is all fine and dandy until you have some drunken idiot shooting up the neighborhood.

So what would you propose as a solution to a neighborhood that has it's residents armed to the teeth with legal guns and legal gun owners? Take away alcohol? What's YOUR answer to your own fear?

[ConHog]

So what would you propose as a solution to a neighborhood that has it's residents armed to the teeth with legal guns and legal gun owners? Take away alcohol? What's YOUR answer to your own fear?

I thought WIndy was a liberal? It appears that she's some ultra right wing NUT who would just as soon lock everyone up in solitary confinement to make sure that they don't in the future commit any crimes.

[Wind Song]

I think you are making shit up. I think you are disingenuous. I don't want to be respected by you. I want you to respect the board enough to tell the truth, provide consistent good-faith posting, and not play the 'victim' card when your arguments are overwhelmed by facts, opinion, or technique.


First of all, I told you I was guessing at your feelings and needs. I'm trying to respond to your insults in a non-violent way. By helping you see that I am not the cause of your anger.

[jimnyc]

So what would you propose as a solution to a neighborhood that has it's residents armed to the teeth with legal guns and legal gun owners? Take away alcohol? What's YOUR answer to your own fear?

Bump, for WS...

[Wind Song]

People applying for gun licenses should be screened out if they have mental illness or substance abuse histories.

[jimnyc]

People applying for gun licenses should be screened out if they have mental illness or substance abuse histories.

Answer my specific question posed above, please.

[Wind Song]

So what would you propose as a solution to a neighborhood that has it's residents armed to the teeth with legal guns and legal gun owners? Take away alcohol? What's YOUR answer to your own fear?


My answer to my own fear? Learn to communicate non-violently with angry people. Face my fears, but be kind and admit when I'm triggered. Turn toward that place that is afraid and keep it company.

Take care of my own needs.

I am committed to non-violence.

[jimnyc]

My answer to my own fear? Learn to communicate non-violently with angry people. Face my fears, but be kind and admit when I'm triggered. Turn toward that place that is afraid and keep it company.

Take care of my own needs.

I am committed to non-violence.

So you say Live and let live" is all fine and dandy until you have some drunken idiot shooting up the neighborhood.

But you think a simple "check" of someone's past would stop this? They already have holds on weapons and checks when someone tries to purchase a gun.

[Wind Song]

So you say Live and let live" is all fine and dandy until you have some drunken idiot shooting up the neighborhood.

But you think a simple "check" of someone's past would stop this? They already have holds on weapons and checks when someone tries to purchase a gun.

They don't screen for substance abuse. I think they should.

[jimnyc]

They don't screen for substance abuse. I think they should.

So all these people "shooting up neighborhoods" are on drugs or drinking?

[ConHog]

So you say Live and let live" is all fine and dandy until you have some drunken idiot shooting up the neighborhood.

But you think a simple "check" of someone's past would stop this? They already have holds on weapons and checks when someone tries to purchase a gun.

I actually think a CAT scan should be added to the requirements for a carry permit. I don't care what someone has in their own home, but we do have the right to make sure mentally defective people aren't carrying weapons around in public. And yes, people who are undergoing treatment for drug abuse, alcohol abuse, and obviously anyone who has been convicted of any sort of crime especially domestic violence should be prevented from carrying a weapon. But THOSE things are already covered which Sky would know if she weren't so adverse to facts.

[ConHog]

They don't screen for substance abuse. I think they should.

the problem is who defines abuse? I have a feeling that you would draw a pretty tight line in order to exclude as many people as possible. Who decides what constitutes abuse?

[Wind Song]

So all these people "shooting up neighborhoods" are on drugs or drinking?


I'm not talking about "all these people" I'm talking about what happened in MY neighborhood. Two incidents of drunks shooting guns while enraged.

[darin]

My answer to my own fear? Learn to communicate non-violently with angry people. Face my fears, but be kind and admit when I'm triggered. Turn toward that place that is afraid and keep it company.

Take care of my own needs.

I am committed to non-violence.

Wha? maybe that's good - at least you're admitting you are a chicken shit.

I am committed to use violence to save the weak from evil.

[Wind Song]

the problem is who defines abuse? I have a feeling that you would draw a pretty tight line in order to exclude as many people as possible. Who decides what constitutes abuse?


We don't allow people to drive drunk in our country. Why should we allow drunks gun rights?

[Wind Song]

Wha? maybe that's good - at least you're admitting you are a chicken shit.

I am committed to use violence to save the weak from evil.


I'm opposed to violence for a number of reasons. My religion, my professional experience and my own life experience. I completely acknowledge my fear and take responsibility for it.

[ConHog]

We don't allow people to drive drunk in our country. Why should we allow drunks gun rights?

hey Ding Dong guess what? Alcoholics are allowed to drive in this country as long as they are sober. Guess what , carrying a weapon while inebriated is ILLEGAL under current law in EVERY jurisdiction.

If a drunk gets so many DUIs they will take his/her license for good. Guess what , if a person has so many gun related incidents that include alcohol they will also lose their right to own guns. In EVERY jurisdiction.

Oh, and FINALLY possession of weapons and narcotics at the same time is a FELONY under FEDERAL law. So drugs and guns mixed is a one strike you're out deal.

[Wind Song]

hey Ding Dong guess what? Alcoholics are allowed to drive in this country as long as they are sober. Guess what , carrying a weapon while inebriated is ILLEGAL under current law in EVERY jurisdiction.

If a drunk gets so many DUIs they will take his/her license for good. Guess what , if a person has so many gun related incidents that include alcohol they will also lose their right to own guns. In EVERY jurisdiction.

Oh, and FINALLY possession of weapons and narcotics at the same time is a FELONY under FEDERAL law. So drugs and guns mixed is a one strike you're out deal.

Bye Con.

I'll talk to you again when you've decided to be civil.

[ConHog]

Bye Con.

I'll talk to you again when you've decided to be civil.

If I just got my ass handed to me the way I served yours up I'd probably leave to. :D

[Wind Song]

More violent speech from Conhog.

[jimnyc]

More violent speech from Conhog.

May not be what you like to read, but it wasn't "violent".

[ConHog]

More violent speech from Conhog.

So using sports metaphors is violent speech? LOL

[Wind Song]

May not be what you like to read, but it wasn't "violent".

What that phrase means is having the shit beat out of you and being mocked for it.

[ConHog]

What that phrase means is having the shit beat out of you.

^ Jim I object to this type of behavior . Accusing a man of wanting to physically harm a woman is beyond the pale. If Sky actually believes I just threatened her she must be the ONLY one who believes that.

[Wind Song]

I didn't say you threatened me, I said you used violent language.

[ConHog]

I didn't say you threatened me, I said you used violent language.

Only in your defective mind.

[Wind Song]

That's according to Marshall Rosenberg in his CD, Speaking Peace.

[Wind Song]

That's according to Marshall Rosenberg in his CD, Speaking Peace.


Rosenberg considers any kind of coercive speech to be violent speech.

[Wind Song]

In his books, The Powers That Be and Engaging the Powers, theologian Walter Wink talks about domination systems being ones in which a few people control [many] to their own advantage. In domination systems you have to train people to think in ways that support the system, so they fit the system. Domination systems require:

1. Suppression of self
2. Moralistic judgments
3. Amtssprache (this expression was used by Nazi officials to describe a bureaucratic language that denies choice, with words like should, have to, ought)
4. The crucial concept of deserve


You have to make violence enjoyable for domination systems to work. Bob Kandeh from Sierra Leone knows. You can get young people to enjoy cutting off the arms of other young people in Sierra Leone because of the thinking that you are giving people what they deserve. Those people supported that government. When you can really justify why people are bad, you can enjoy their suffering.

In the United States at the time children are watching TV the most, between 7 and 9 pm, in 75 percent of the programs, the hero either kills someone or beats them up. So by the time the average child is fifteen years old, they have observed thirty thousand beatings and murders by the good guys. What does this do to our consciousness? And when does the beating and murdering occur? At the orgasmic climax; we get an orgasmic joy from violence.

http://www.nwcompass.org/anger_and_domination.html

[ConHog]

In his books, The Powers That Be and Engaging the Powers, theologian Walter Wink talks about domination systems being ones in which a few people control [many] to their own advantage. In domination systems you have to train people to think in ways that support the system, so they fit the system. Domination systems require:

1. Suppression of self
2. Moralistic judgments
3. Amtssprache (this expression was used by Nazi officials to describe a bureaucratic language that denies choice, with words like should, have to, ought)
4. The crucial concept of deserve


You have to make violence enjoyable for domination systems to work. Bob Kandeh from Sierra Leone knows. You can get young people to enjoy cutting off the arms of other young people in Sierra Leone because of the thinking that you are giving people what they deserve. Those people supported that government. When you can really justify why people are bad, you can enjoy their suffering.

In the United States at the time children are watching TV the most, between 7 and 9 pm, in 75 percent of the programs, the hero either kills someone or beats them up. So by the time the average child is fifteen years old, they have observed thirty thousand beatings and murders by the good guys. What does this do to our consciousness? And when does the beating and murdering occur? At the orgasmic climax; we get an orgasmic joy from violence.

http://www.nwcompass.org/anger_and_domination.html


Speak for yourself.


Freak

[Wind Song]

Speak for yourself.



I am speaking for myself. I'm currently training in Rosenberg's NVC.

[DragonStryk72]

Violence isn't an option for me.

By your definition, you commit violence repeatedly on these boards.

[gabosaurus]

When I hear about anger management, I usually think of my cousin. She had a huge temper in high school. In 11th grade, she found a girl who had been bad mouthing her and beat her up. Where the girls boyfriend called her out, she beat him up as well.
Strangely enough, it was the guy's parents who filed a police report. (I can imagine -- "a girl beat my son up. I'd like to file charges.")
The judge put her on probation and ordered her to take an anger management court. She has always said that it was the best thing that has ever happened to her.

I never had a problem with anger. My dad always told me that the best way to defuse anger is with indifference. It's all water off a duck's back.
Sarcasm helps as well.

[Wind Song]

By your definition, you commit violence repeatedly on these boards.

That's true, and it's why I'm studying NVC now. My own actions are not in harmony with my values sometimes. Anytime we communicate negative judgments toward others we are speaking violently.

[ConHog]

When I hear about anger management, I usually think of my cousin. She had a huge temper in high school. In 11th grade, she found a girl who had been bad mouthing her and beat her up. Where the girls boyfriend called her out, she beat him up as well.
Strangely enough, it was the guy's parents who filed a police report. (I can imagine -- "a girl beat my son up. I'd like to file charges.")
The judge put her on probation and ordered her to take an anger management court. She has always said that it was the best thing that has ever happened to her.

I never had a problem with anger. My dad always told me that the best way to defuse anger is with indifference. It's all water off a duck's back.
Sarcasm helps as well.

When I think of anger I think of angry sex. But on the other hand my wife says I'm always thinking about sex so that may not mean much. :laugh2:

[DragonStryk72]

That's true, and it's why I'm studying NVC now. My own actions are not in harmony with my values sometimes. Anytime we communicate negative judgments toward others we are speaking violently.

AGain, you have no actual concept of violence.

[Wind Song]

When I think of anger I think of angry sex. But on the other hand my wife says I'm always thinking about sex so that may not mean much. :laugh2:


It doesn't suprise me that you have angry sex. Have you heard of the term, "making love"? What does it mean to you?

[Wind Song]

AGain, you have no actual concept of violence.

Dragon why don't you tell me what you mean. I am sorry if I keep hurting your feelings by my view. It's not personal to you at all.

[jimnyc]

Dragon why don't you tell me what you mean. I am sorry if I keep hurting your feelings by my view. It's not personal to you at all.

Look it up and you'll see how ridiculous it is to characterize posts here, as you have, as "violent"

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/violent?s=t

[Wind Song]

Look it up and you'll see how ridiculous it is to characterize posts here, as you have, as "violent"

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/violent?s=t

Jim,

I'll just work on making my own posts less violent by Marshall Rosenberg's definition of violent speech. I can't help but be excited about it.

Violence according to NVC is any form of coercion or manipulation using judgment. NVC is using observation, feelings, needs and requests.

[SassyLady]

Rosenberg considers any kind of coercive speech to be violent speech.

Some researchers have a tendency to extrapolate exponentially thus creating extremes that cannot be upheld in the real world.

By this definition telling my children that if they don't go wash their hands right now they won't get dessert after dinner would be violent speech.

[Wind Song]

Some researchers have a tendency to extrapolate exponentially thus creating extremes that cannot be upheld in the real world.

By this definition telling my children that if they don't go wash their hands right now they won't get dessert after dinner would be violent speech.

Well, I'm not sure that it's right to characterize your dessert reward as violence, but in this paradigm, we're seeking out a way to always be addressing feelings and needs.

I heard a fifteen year old boy who's grown up in NVC describe a time when he was getting ready to fly to Israel for a wonderful program and he slipped and feel down the stairs. His parents made a demand that he go directly to hospital instead of the airport. The kid said he had no problem accepting that demand because he knew his parents were interested in his needs and always supported him in meeting those needs.

[Wind Song]

OMG, the nemesis is here. I'm in trouble.

[SassyLady]

Well, I'm not sure that it's right to characterize your dessert reward as violence, but in this paradigm, we're seeking out a way to always be addressing feelings and needs.

I heard a fifteen year old boy who's grown up in NVC describe a time when he was getting ready to fly to Israel for a wonderful program and he slipped and feel down the stairs. His parents made a demand that he go directly to hospital instead of the airport. The kid said he had no problem accepting that demand because he knew his parents were interested in his needs and always supported him in meeting those needs.

That's my point when I said:


Some researchers have a tendency to extrapolate exponentially thus creating extremes that cannot be upheld in the real world.

because you said:


Rosenberg considers any kind of coercive speech to be violent speech.

Instead of judging everything by the highlighted statement you made, it seems more reasonable to believe that not all coercive speech is violent. Perhaps some coercive speech is designed to express needs, i.e., "if you rub my feet, I'll cook your dinner". Pretty coercive don't you think? But not violent in any way.

[Wind Song]

That's my point when I said:



because you said:

[/COLOR]

Instead of judging everything by the highlighted statement you made, it seems more reasonable to believe that not all coercive speech is violent. Perhaps some coercive speech is designed to express needs, i.e., "if you rub my feet, I'll cook your dinner". Pretty coercive don't you think? But not violent in any way.

Yes, that is a good example of being coercive with being violent. Rosenberg suggest dropping all forms of coecion--punishment or reward.

[SassyLady]

Yes, that is a good example of being coercive with being violent. Rosenberg suggest dropping all forms of coecion--punishment or reward.

Well, I don't think his suggestion will go too far.

I, personally, will never give up my compromise techniques...I happen to like rewards.

PS - I also like giving them out for good behavior.

[Kathianne]

Well, I don't think his suggestion will go too far.

I, personally, will never give up my compromise techniques...I happen to like rewards.

PS - I also like giving them out for good behavior.

Indeed, since it's part of commonsense and civility.

[Wind Song]

Well, I don't think his suggestion will go too far.

I, personally, will never give up my compromise techniques...I happen to like rewards.

PS - I also like giving them out for good behavior.

It's counterintuitive for most teachers to stop doing reward and punishment. Can you imagine what it might be like to be free of that.

[SassyLady]

It's counterintuitive for most teachers to stop doing reward and punishment. Can you imagine what it might be like to be free of that.

Total chaos?

[Wind Song]

Total chaos?

Actually, not at all. You can see quite a few really excellent youtube of the Bay Area NVC doing work with parent and kids. It's pretty amazing stuff.

[SassyLady]

Actually, not at all. You can see quite a few really excellent youtube of the Bay Area NVC doing work with parent and kids. It's pretty amazing stuff.

What do they use as incentives? Aren't grades a form of coercion?

[Wind Song]

What do they use as incentives? Aren't grades a form of coercion?

I'm not sure yet, Sassy. I know they are using it in schools. They are working to have the kids motivated intrinsically by what they're interested in.

[Kathianne]

I'm not sure yet, Sassy. I know they are using it in schools. They are working to have the kids motivated intrinsically by what they're interested in.

Take speed reading. You'll become a master much more quickly.

[Wind Song]

Take speed reading. You'll become a master much more quickly.

That's a neutral statement. Congratulations. How did you manage that. Where is your characteristic snipe?

[SassyLady]

I'm not sure yet, Sassy. I know they are using it in schools. They are working to have the kids motivated intrinsically by what they're interested in.

I have his book and the workbook. I found that I'm not passive enough to eradicate all coercive language from my communications. The one that I worked the hardest on is to not shame others into doing what I want them to do. Sometimes I forget or cannot come up with a more effective way to make my point, but I am more conscious of that one tool.

[Kathianne]

I have his book and the workbook. I found that I'm not passive enough to eradicate all coercive language from my communications. The one that I worked the hardest on is to not shame others into doing what I want them to do. Sometimes I forget or cannot come up with a more effective way to make my point, but I am more conscious of that one tool.

Has it's place, like many other methodologies. Remove all incentives or opportunities towards kudos, same as eliminating incentives in salaries. Grades do count and one way or another universities and employers will find ways to evaluate.

[Wind Song]

I have his book and the workbook. I found that I'm not passive enough to eradicate all coercive language from my communications. The one that I worked the hardest on is to not shame others into doing what I want them to do. Sometimes I forget or cannot come up with a more effective way to make my point, but I am more conscious of that one tool.

That's the one I have the hardest time with.

Right now, I'm working on dealing with the poisonous messages that I received as a child. Guess who delivers the most scathing judgments of me on this forum most like the abuse I recieived as a child?

[SassyLady]

That's the one I have the hardest time with.

Right now, I'm working on dealing with the poisonous messages that I received as a child. Guess who delivers the most scathing judgments of me on this forum most like the abuse I recieived as a child?

Sky,

Then perhaps that is why you are here, at this time and place. To learn how to deal with them as an adult, not as a child. Instead of reacting like the child that those messages make you feel.....take power over them and look at them differently. Perhaps the messages are not about you at all. Perhaps that person also had a poisonous childhood and you are feeding into their angst by your reactions. You have been given an opportunity to heal both yourself and perhaps this other person. Thank about it.

SS

[Wind Song]

Sky,

Then perhaps that is why you are here, at this time and place. To learn how to deal with them as an adult, not as a child. Instead of reacting like the child that those messages make you feel.....take power over them and look at them differently. Perhaps the messages are not about you at all. Perhaps that person also had a poisonous childhood and you are feeding into their angst by your reactions. You have been given an opportunity to heal both yourself and perhaps this other person. Thank about it.

SS


That's a spacious view of looking at this. I really can't say more. It's too personal.

[ConHog]

It doesn't suprise me that you have angry sex. Have you heard of the term, "making love"? What does it mean to you?

you have to be fucking kidding me?

[Wind Song]

you have to be fucking kidding me?

Do you make love or do you act out your anger with sex?

[ConHog]

Do you make love or do you act out your anger with sex?

Do you REALLY not know what angry sex is?

[jimnyc]

Do you make love or do you act out your anger with sex?

Angry sex is not acting out of anger. Its simply taking the passion from your anger and rerouting it into some healthy romping instead of what could otherwise be the mundane sex. That "angry" sex, being different, many find very erotic.

[ConHog]

Angry sex is not acting out of anger. Its simply taking the passion from your anger and rerouting it into some healthy romping instead of what could otherwise be the mundane sex. That "angry" sex, being different, many find very erotic.

And it makes it absolutely impossible to go to sleep mad, which is half the battle... Why end the day in a fight?

[jimnyc]

And it makes it absolutely impossible to go to sleep mad, which is half the battle... Why end the day in a fight?

Couldn't agree more.

Of course when I fight with my wife, she just goes cold for years at a time and makes me sleep on the coach. How can women go forever without thinking about or having sex, but men can go an hour without thinking about it and we'll literally explode if "something doesn't happen" weekly at a bare minimum?

Or am I speaking for myself? :laugh2:

[ConHog]

Couldn't agree more.

Of course when I fight with my wife, she just goes cold for years at a time and makes me sleep on the coach. How can women go forever without thinking about or having sex, but men can go an hour without thinking about it and we'll literally explode if "something doesn't happen" weekly at a bare minimum?

Or am I speaking for myself? :laugh2:

Don't know bud, guess I'm lucky, my wife doesn't EVER withhold sex b/c she's angry or whatever. Not once in 7 years has she played that game.

[Shadow]

Couldn't agree more.

Of course when I fight with my wife, she just goes cold for years at a time and makes me sleep on the coach. How can women go forever without thinking about or having sex, but men can go an hour without thinking about it and we'll literally explode if "something doesn't happen" weekly at a bare minimum?

Or am I speaking for myself? :laugh2:

It depends on the situation and how the argument goes down. Women relate to sex on an emotional level. The only time I ever withheld sex from my ex was when he made me feel bad about myself...or to question the way he actually viewed me. Kinda hard to muster up desire for someone who makes you feel like crap.

[SassyLady]

It depends on the situation and how the argument goes down. Women relate to sex on an emotional level. The only time I ever withheld sex from my ex was when he made me feel bad about myself...or to question the way he actually viewed me. Kinda hard to muster up desire for someone who makes you feel like crap.

I withheld sex any time I didn't feel like having it. Sometimes hubby had to work a little harder to convince me I did feel like having it. But, if I was pissed, I generally didn't feel like having sex.

[ConHog]

I withheld sex any time I didn't feel like having it. Sometimes hubby had to work a little harder to convince me I did feel like having it. But, if I was pissed, I generally didn't feel like having sex.


Oh, well in 7 years I've never really pissed my wife off. Angry? Yes of course, but pissed off? Nope. And she's never had me pissed off either.

[Shadow]

I withheld sex any time I didn't feel like having it. Sometimes hubby had to work a little harder to convince me I did feel like having it. But, if I was pissed, I generally didn't feel like having sex.

It takes a lot to piss me off,I generally don't get that mad very often...and when I do I can talk myself out of my bad mood pretty quick. I also don't hold grudges very long either. So for me...it was all about the way he made me feel about myself or my feelings toward him. Once trust and respect flew out the window...he didn't get sex very often...if at all.

[ConHog]

It takes a lot to piss me off,I generally don't get that mad very often...and when I do I can talk myself out of my bad mood pretty quick. I also don't hold grudges very long either. So for me...it was all about the way he made me feel about myself or my feelings toward him. Once trust and respect flew out the window...he didn't get sex very often...if at all.

True story.

My sister got divorced 2 years ago. She was married for 10 years. We went up and packed her shit and she left him while he was at work one day. She left him a note that she was leaving him. She confided in my wife that she hadn't had sex with him in the last 3 years of their marriage and the dude was shocked that she left him; he actually told her he didn't even realize there was a problem.

Now damn, I would be asking what the problem was after 2 nights of no sex, but 3 years??? WOW

[Shadow]

True story.

My sister got divorced 2 years ago. She was married for 10 years. We went up and packed her shit and she left him while he was at work one day. She left him a note that she was leaving him. She confided in my wife that she hadn't had sex with him in the last 3 years of their marriage and the dude was shocked that she left him; he actually told her he didn't even realize there was a problem.

Now damn, I would be asking what the problem was after 2 nights of no sex, but 3 years??? WOW

I'm sure my husband saw no problem with our relationship either. It was convenient,he could lash out whenever he felt like it and move on without regard for anyone else. And since I am a peace keeper...I let a lot of things slide I probably shouldn't have. as a matter of fact... one day I packed up the kids and our stuff and left him...we were estranged and living apart for 7 years or more. When I told him I was finally filing for a divorce...he actually said he always thought I would come back someday. Some men live in denial I guess.

[Wind Song]

Angry sex is not acting out of anger. Its simply taking the passion from your anger and rerouting it into some healthy romping instead of what could otherwise be the mundane sex. That "angry" sex, being different, many find very erotic.

In the DV cases I see, angry sex is rape.

[SassyLady]

In the DV cases I see, angry sex is rape.

Really? I thought rape was when one individual doesn't want to have sex. People can be angry and have sex without it being rape.

[Wind Song]

Really? I thought rape was when one individual doesn't want to have sex. People can be angry and have sex without it being rape.


Some men force women to have sex with them because they're angry and they want the woman to be humiliated.

[SassyLady]

Some men force women to have sex with them because they're angry and they want the woman to be humiliated.

Yes, some men do. However, categorically lumping all men as rapists because they engage in sex while angry is not being truthful about the subject. Rape is when one of the partners does not want to have sex. Angry sex between two consenting people is not rape. It's sometimes very cathartic.

[Dilloduck]

Some men force women to have sex with them because they're angry and they want the woman to be humiliated.

Yes-that's rape. Charges can be filed.

[Wind Song]

Yes, some men do. However, categorically lumping all men as rapists because they engage in sex while angry is not being truthful about the subject. Rape is when one of the partners does not want to have sex. Angry sex between two consenting people is not rape. It's sometimes very cathartic.


If you think it's cathartic to have your old man slap you around and fuck you when he's angry, go for it.

[SassyLady]

If you think it's cathartic to have your old man slap you around and fuck you when he's angry, go for it.

Now, you are extrapolating to the extreme. You need to stop doing that.

I never said angry sex had anything to do with slapping anyone around. That is your perspective, not mine. Anger does not always end in people hurting each other....anger can be cathartic when it is released and sometimes sex does that....helps to release pent up anger. Try it sometime.

[Wind Song]

Now, you are extrapolating to the extreme. You need to stop doing that.

I never said angry sex had anything to do with slapping anyone around. That is your perspective, not mine. Anger does not always end in people hurting each other....anger can be cathartic when it is released and sometimes sex does that....helps to release pent up anger. Try it sometime.


No, I've never been interested in having sex when I'm angry. Maybe it's a het thing.

[ConHog]

Now, you are extrapolating to the extreme. You need to stop doing that.

I never said angry sex had anything to do with slapping anyone around. That is your perspective, not mine. Anger does not always end in people hurting each other....anger can be cathartic when it is released and sometimes sex does that....helps to release pent up anger. Try it sometime.

I find it almost impossible yo believe that a grown ass woman has never had angry sex.

And sky you disgust me. Anyone whos read my posts knows i adore mg wife to the point of worship. Id never harm her physically, or emotionally

[Wind Song]

I find it almost impossible yo believe that a grown ass woman has never had angry sex.

And sky you disgust me. Anyone whos read my posts knows i adore mg wife to the point of worship. Id never harm her physically, or emotionally


Stop posting to me Conhog. Get your angry sex attitude out of my face. You disgust me too.

[SassyLady]

I find it almost impossible yo believe that a grown ass woman has never had angry sex.



ConHog ... reread my posts ... I have never said that grown women have never had angry sex. I am the one that said it can be cathartic.

[Wind Song]

ConHog ... reread my posts ... I have never said that grown women have never had angry sex. I am the one that said it can be cathartic.


You and he completely agree. Excuse me while I throw up.

[ConHog]

ConHog ... reread my posts ... I have never said that grown women have never had angry sex. I am the one that said it can be cathartic.

My bad i was agreeing with you and speaking about sky. I am perterbed that she is suggesting that i beat and rape my wife

[SassyLady]

You and he completely agree. Excuse me while I throw up.

Go ahead and throw up...you are judging again and look at how sick it makes you.

You need to quit living in your dream world Wind Song. Real people have sex while they are angry and it does not have to be violent. You are the one ascribing violence to anger.

[Wind Song]

My bad i was agreeing with you and speaking about sky. I am perterbed that she is suggesting that i beat and rape my wife

I am not suggesting that you rape and beat your wife.

I am telling you that your posts to me are filled with rage and your talk of angry sex makes me sick to my stomach.

[SassyLady]

My bad i was agreeing with you and speaking about sky. I am perterbed that she is suggesting that i beat and rape my wife

She has a tendency to make large assumptions about people. It should not perturb you if you know it isn't true. Water off a duck's back.

[Wind Song]

Go ahead and throw up...you are judging again and look at how sick it makes you.

You need to quit living in your dream world Wind Song. Real people have sex while they are angry and it does not have to be violent. You are the one ascribing violence to anger.


I don't live in a dream world. I work with domestic violence and sexual assault victims, remember. I know more about violence than you can imagine.

[ConHog]

I am not suggesting that you rape and beat your wife.

I am telling you that your posts to me are filled with rage and your talk of angry sex makes me sick to my stomach.

Are you seriously telling youve never been arguing with well whoever youre with and thr next thing you know youre ripping each others clothes off and trying to fuck each others brains out? Youre misssing out if you habent.

And yes you most definately suggested i beat and rape my wife. Which is far more egregous than anything you claim kath did to you. Hypocrite.

[Wind Song]

She has a tendency to make large assumptions about people. It should not perturb you if you know it isn't true. Water off a duck's back.


You have a tendency to talk about people as if they aren't there. You continually judge, evaluate, criticise my every post.

[Wind Song]

Are you seriously telling youve never been arguing with well whoever youre with and thr next thing you know youre ripping each others clothes off and trying to fuck each others brains out? Youre misssing out if you habent.

And yes you most definately suggested i beat and rape my wife. Which is far more egregous than anything you claim kath did to you. Hypocrite.


No, I didn't not suggest that you rape and beat your wife. I dont' think that's a good idea at all.

[ConHog]

No, I didn't not suggest that you rape and beat your wife. I dont' think that's a good idea at all.

Yes you certainly did when you equated angry sex to beating and raping a woman you implied that my having angry sex with my wife means i beat and rape her.

Dont worry i already know you have no integrity so i wont be expecting an apology.

[SassyLady]

You have a tendency to talk about people as if they aren't there. You continually judge, evaluate, criticise my every post.

You are extrapolating to the extreme again.

I do not judge, evaluate, criticize your every post. Yes I am responding to your posts. I am pretty much responding to everyone who is posting at this time, and you happen to be posting more than anyone else.

When I am responding to ConHog's post I use language referring to you as "she" because I am not directly addressing you. You are drifting off into that "victim" mentality again.

[Wind Song]

Yes you certainly did when you equated angry sex to beating and raping a woman you implied that my having angry sex with my wife means i beat and rape her.

Dont worry i already know you have no integrity so i wont be expecting an apology.

I'm not going to apologize for something I didn't do.

I didn't say you rape and beat your wife. I said I wasn't surprised you have sex when you're angry.

[Wind Song]

You are extrapolating to the extreme again.

I do not judge, evaluate, criticize your every post. Yes I am responding to your posts. I am pretty much responding to everyone who is posting at this time, and you happen to be posting more than anyone else.

When I am responding to ConHog's post I use language referring to you as "she" because I am not directly addressing you. You are drifting off into that "victim" mentality again.


You are judging me this second. Fuck off. We're done.

[SassyLady]

Yes you certainly did when you equated angry sex to beating and raping a woman you implied that my having angry sex with my wife means i beat and rape her.

Dont worry i already know you have no integrity so i wont be expecting an apology.

Wind Song also insinuated that my "old man" slapped me around and engaged in violence when I said that I've had angry sex. I'm not offended. I just think she has a skewed view of the world and cannot accept that everyone is not standing in her shoes looking through her eyes. It's a very "I'm the center of the universe" type of perspective.

[Wind Song]

And all you do is evaluate, diagnose, criticize my every post. You have ZERO empathy.

I'm glad I didn't give you my email addie.

[SassyLady]

You are judging me this second. Fuck off. We're done.

Oh, you ARE so predictable. Still looking for an excuse to leave?

Wind Song ... if you post here, people will respond. If you want a platform to just express your views without feedback, and/or criticism, judgement, etc., then you need to start your own blog.

[ConHog]

You are judging me this second. Fuck off. We're done.

Tsk tsk what would the dali lamaa think?

[SassyLady]

And all you do is evaluate, diagnose, criticize my every post. You have ZERO empathy.

I'm glad I didn't give you my email addie.

I told you I won't give you empathy in order for you to continue playing the victim. I was very honest with you and now you are pissed because I called you on your shit about angry sex not always being about rape? You think that is about not showing empathy. No wonder you get yourself into a pickle on the message boards.

PS ... if you remember, I am the one that said I didn't want your email addie if you expected me to take on the responsibility of deciding when you should post or not. Grow up Wind Song.

[Wind Song]

Oh, you ARE so predictable. Still looking for an excuse to leave?

Wind Song ... if you post here, people will respond. If you want a platform to just express your views without feedback, and/or criticism, judgement, etc., then you need to start your own blog.


Fine. My wife has been telling me for years to start a blog. We wants me to get off these forums where people do nothing but dis you.

[Wind Song]

I told you I won't give you empathy in order for you to continue playing the victim. I was very honest with you and now you are pissed because I called you on your shit about angry sex not always being about rape? You think that is about not showing empathy. No wonder you get yourself into a pickle on the message boards.

I don't think you have a clue what empathy is. It's giving your attention to another silently or by verbally connecting with their feelings without judging, criticising, condemnning, analyzing or diagnosing.

You put yourself aside and enter the other persons world with acceptance and respect.

Would you like to see me demonstrate that for you.

[SassyLady]

Fine. My wife has been telling me for years to start a blog. We wants me to get off these forums where people do nothing but dis you.

Sounds like your wife is very intuitive. You should start a blog ... I think you have a lot to offer people who are like minded. You obviously are not finding what you want on these message boards.

[SassyLady]

I don't think you have a clue what empathy is. It's giving your attention to another silently or by verbally connecting with their feelings without judging, criticising, condemnning, analyzing or diagnosing.

You put yourself aside and enter the other persons world with acceptance and respect.

Would you like to see me demonstrate that for you.

Sure .. does it have the words "fuck you" as you stated previously?

[ConHog]

Wind Song also insinuated that my "old man" slapped me around and engaged in violence when I said that I've had angry sex. I'm not offended. I just think she has a skewed view of the world and cannot accept that everyone is not standing in her shoes looking through her eyes. It's a very "I'm the center of the universe" type of perspective.

Myself im really beginning to wonder if shes even sane. Shes completely incapable of rational discussion. Sadly im not joking at all

[Wind Song]

Tsk tsk what would the dali lamaa think?

He would think: Here is a sentient being, a human being with flaws. He would have compassion for me, not harsh judgment like you do.

[Wind Song]

Sure .. does it have the words "fuck you" as you stated previously?


No, it doesn't. Would you like me to listen to you about your need for respect?

[SassyLady]

No, it doesn't. Would you like me to listen to you about your need for respect?

Sure. Where do we start?

[ConHog]

I don't think you have a clue what empathy is. It's giving your attention to another silently or by verbally connecting with their feelings without judging, criticising, condemnning, analyzing or diagnosing.

You put yourself aside and enter the other persons world with acceptance and respect.

Would you like to see me demonstrate that for you.

Sky i showed empathy for u when i invited you here and told you this placewas different. You shit on me by not changing your own posting style and becoming a good member here. YOU are the reason noone here wants to empathize with u about anything

[Wind Song]

Sure .. does it have the words "fuck you" as you stated previously?

No, it doesn't. Would you like me to drop down into just listening to how you feel? I'm completely willing to do so.

[Wind Song]

Sky i showed empathy for u when i invited you here and told you this placewas different. You shit on me by not changing your own posting style and becoming a good member here. YOU are the reason noone here wants to empathize with u about anything

I'm sorry I've been such a disappointment for you. If you have more you want to say, I'm listening.

[Wind Song]

Sure. Where do we start?


Anyplace you like.

[SassyLady]

No, it doesn't. Would you like me to drop down into just listening to how you feel? I'm completely willing to do so.

I'm feeling frustrated and amused.

[ConHog]

He would think: Here is a sentient being, a human being with flaws. He would have compassion for me, not harsh judgment like you do.

I dont believe that. Im cbristian of course but i have studied buddha because of my histpry background and he would definately frown upon u just running around claiming to be a buddhist as you just attackd. Cursed. Bullied and otherwise acted like an asshole as you please then just stood back and said oh well were not perfect.... you dont even try.......

[Wind Song]

I'm feeling frustrated and amused.


Ok, what do you need in this situation. What would help?
Something in you feels frustrated and something else feels amused. Which part do you need to hear from first?

[Wind Song]

I dont believe that. Im cbristian of course but i have studied buddha because of my histpry background and he would definately frown upon u just running around claiming to be a buddhist as you just attackd. Cursed. Bullied and otherwise acted like an asshole as you please then just stood back and said oh well were not perfect.... you dont even try.......

I'm listening. Keep going...

[SassyLady]

Ok, what do you need in this situation. What would help.

My frustration lies in seeing a very intelligent woman going around in circles because she will not take personal responsibility. So, I guess seeing that individual taking personal responsibility would be a good start.

[Wind Song]

My frustration lies in seeing a very intelligent woman going around in circles because she will not take personal responsibility. So, I guess seeing that individual taking personal responsibility would be a good start.


What are YOUR needs. If what you want is to for someone else to STOP doing something you will be continually frustrated, because your goal is coercion.

What do you need, and what do you think she needs? How can the two of you get what you need?

There is a presumption in your frustration story, that this woman is unwilling to take personal responsiblity. That is a judgment. Judgment are non-empathic responses. What behavior exactly would demonstrate what you mean by "taking personal responsiblity".

[SassyLady]

What are YOUR needs. If what you want is to for someone else to STOP doing something you will be continually frustrated, because your goal is coercion.

What do you need, and what do you think she needs? How can the two of you get what you need?

There is a presumption in your frustration story, that this woman is unwilling to take personal responsiblity. That is a judgment. Judgment are non-empathic responses. What behavior exactly would demonstrate what you mean by "taking personal responsiblity".

My need is to see progress and not regression. To feel that all the attempts made to communicate to this person the impact she is having on the community is not wasted. The goal is not coercion but awareness.

I think what both of us need is to see some type of evolution in the process, not constant de-evolution.

Yes, judgements are non-empathic responses. I don't mind being judged for being non-empathetic. My goal isn't to help this person remain stagnant.

Behavior that would demonstrate "taking personal responsibility" would be if that person were to quit turning every thread into a forum to help them feel like they were a victim.

[Wind Song]

My need is to see progress and not regression. To feel that all the attempts made to communicate to this person the impact she is having on the community is not wasted. The goal is not coercion but awareness.

I think what both of us need is to see some type of evolution in the process, not constant de-evolution.

Yes, judgements are non-empathic responses. I don't mind being judged for being non-empathetic. My goal isn't to help this person remain stagnant.

Behavior that would demonstrate "taking personal responsibility" would be if that person were to quit turning every thread into a forum to help them feel like they were a victim.

The need to see progress isn't a need. It's a demand. Whenever you make demands you are not in harmony with the goal of having both people's needs met.

OK. Now I'm just going to drop all the NVC practice and tell you that I hear you that you don't like the impact I'm having on this forum community and that you'd like me to change my behavior.

I'm willing to do that.

One thing I see that I shouldn't do is talk about myself, or my interests. What I plan to do is listen more and post less. I'm going to stop telling stories about my life.

I will no longer discuss domestic violence, sexual assault, guns, Buddhism, lesbians, marriage equality, or retributive/restorative justice.

If I have a view I will keep it to myself.

[ConHog]

What are YOUR needs. If what you want is to for someone else to STOP doing something you will be continually frustrated, because your goal is coercion.

What do you need, and what do you think she needs? How can the two of you get what you need?

There is a presumption in your frustration story, that this woman is unwilling to take personal responsiblity. That is a judgment. Judgment are non-empathic responses. What behavior exactly would demonstrate what you mean by "taking personal responsiblity".

Ohbfor the love of god...

Stop with the pyscho babble. In plain fucking english why cant you nake the tiniest goddamned effort to get along with anyone on any fucking message board?

Do we have to individually post on here daily that we are not out to get you? How about if we get together and sign a blood pact? I mean what the fuck would it fucking take to get you to jmget eiyh the fucking program.

Mo oneeants you to fucking leave yet dailyu you whine that someone wants you to leave. What are you not getting at home that we have to individually affirm that we want you here every fucking day?

Why cant you fucking do like everyone else on this fucking board fucking does and post your opinions take a few shots when neccesary, absorb the shots you fucking take in retaliation and move onto the next fucking thread without the fucking drama?


Is that ducking clear enuff for u?

[Wind Song]

Ohbfor the love of god...

Stop with the pyscho babble. In plain fucking english why cant you nake the tiniest goddamned effort to get along with anyone on any fucking message board?

Do we have to individually post on here daily that we are not out to get you? How about if we get together and sign a blood pact? I mean what the fuck would it fucking take to get you to jmget eiyh the fucking program.

Mo oneeants you to fucking leave yet dailyu you whine that someone wants you to leave. What are you not getting at home that we have to individually affirm that we want you here every fucking day?

Why cant you fucking do like everyone else on this fucking board fucking does and post your opinions take a few shots when neccesary, absorb the shots you fucking take in retaliation and move onto the next fucking thread without the fucking drama?


Is that ducking clear enuff for u?

Crystal clear. Keep going. I don't think you've gotten everything out of your system yet.

[SassyLady]

The need to see progress isn't a need. It's a demand. Whenever you make demands you are not in harmony with the goal of having both people's needs met.

OK. Now I'm just going to drop all the NVC practice and tell you that I hear you that you don't like the impact I'm having on this forum community and that you'd like me to change my behavior.

I'm willing to do that.

One thing I see that I shouldn't do is talk about myself, or my interests. What I plan to do is listen more and post less. I'm going to stop telling stories about my life.

I will no longer discuss domestic violence, sexual assault, guns, Buddhism, lesbians, marriage equality, or retributive/restorative justice.

See, by making this statement, you are making this about you again. Please discuss these things. It's not that no one here wants to hear about these topics. I personally have found them interesting. What I don't find interesting is when someone disagrees with your stance that you devolve into "poor me". It's hard for one to try and debate a subject with you when it is so interspersed with the reactive posts. Then the thread becomes about you instead of the topic.

Sky, thanks for practicing NVC with me. It felt much better than the "fuck yous" you've been throwing my way today. You asked me what I needed and if expressing what I needed seemed like a demand to you I have no idea how to express my needs.

[Wind Song]

See, by making this statement, you are making this about you again. Please discuss these things. It's not that no one here wants to hear about these topics. I personally have found them interesting. What I don't find interesting is when someone disagrees with your stance that you devolve into "poor me". It's hard for one to try and debate a subject with you when it is so interspersed with the reactive posts. Then the thread becomes about you instead of the topic.

Sky, thanks for practicing NVC with me. It felt much better than the "fuck yous" you've been throwing my way today. You asked me what I needed and if expressing what I needed seemed like a demand to you I have no idea how to express my needs.


Most of us have no idea how to express our needs without making them sound like demands. I haven't mastered that skill either. I will try to not disagree with anyone else's posts.

I will post less, and listen more. I need to read posts more slowly anyway.

Why is making this statement in answer to your post making it about me again. Please tell me. I'm obviously not getting it how I do this over and over again.

I will see if I can tone down my sarcasm a few notches.

I appreciate your posts. I feel more trusting of you than any other poster here.

[SassyLady]

Most of us have no idea how to express our needs without making them sound like demands. I haven't mastered that skill either. I will try to not disagree with anyone else's posts.

I will post less, and listen more. I need to read posts more slowly anyway.

Why is making this statement in answer to your post making it about me again. Please tell me. I'm obviously not getting it how I do this over and over again.

I will see if I can tone down my sarcasm a few notches.

I appreciate your posts. I feel more trusting of you than any other poster here.

Thanks for your trust. Try making a few posts without using the word "I".

[fj1200]

First of all, it's not about "controlling" someone else's need. It's about meeting the other person empathically, and NOT seeing him as an enemy, but a human being with needs.

"I'm sorry my dog crapped..."

So in essence it comes down to the crap....


OK, let's see if I can figure out the needs you're trying to meet by lashing out at me with insults. Offering a diagnosis of someone is a way to disconnect with feelings and needs.

I'm going to try empathic communication with you. I will have to guess what you feel and what your needs are.

I'm guessing you're annoyed and frustrated by my posts. There may be something you think is unfair to you about my position. You may need to feel respected by me.

You don't like it when I tell stories from my own life experience. I will stop doing that. No more stories from my life.

He's annoyed and frustrated by your drama. There's no guessing at his needs. :rolleyes:

[Wind Song]

Thanks for your trust. Try making a few posts without using the word "I".


OK

[tailfins]

Are we still talking about the Austrian immigrant, Anger at work?

[fj1200]

I don't live in a dream world. I work with domestic violence and sexual assault victims, remember. I know more about violence than you can imagine.


You are extrapolating to the extreme again.

That was a spot-on assessment. Extrapolating to the extreme and from the specific (I see guns shoot people) to the general (all guns shoot people).

[Wind Song]

Are we still talking about the Austrian immigrant, Anger at work?

Yes.

[gabosaurus]

Dear Wind Song:
I think you are trying too hard to make an impression among this community. I have been among these people for many years. I rarely agree with them, but I know that this is a very learned group (well, some of them are :p ).

My parents were 60s hippies. They met when they were both arrested during a Vietnam war protest rally. I was raised in the protest movement. I've been to several of the larger ones. I went to Manhattan for the 2004 Bush coronation. Where I learned that the modern protest movement was full of crap. People like Michael Moore, Jesse Jackson, et al, they are not in it for the sake of the movement. They are there for the sake of publicity. Most protests are staged for the sake of TV. No one wants to see the peaceful marchers (probably 90-95 percent of the movement). They want to see the violence.
My faith was permanently shattered when a news photographer offered me money to throw something at a police officer.

I have a masters degree from the University of California at Berkeley in Adolescent Psychology. I work in public schools. But I have also worked in a sexual assault trauma center, a psych ward, a counseling center and a few others. I counseled Hurricane Katrina refugees at the Houston Astrodome. I've talked with gang members and gang victims.

This post is not to brag on myself. It is merely to state that you are not telling anyone what they don't know already.
DP has members who have gone to war. They have seen things I can't even imagine happening.
We all have our crosses to bear. We don't need new ones. :thumb:

Love, Gabriella

[ConHog]

Dear Wind Song:
I think you are trying too hard to make an impression among this community. I have been among these people for many years. I rarely agree with them, but I know that this is a very learned group (well, some of them are :p ).

My parents were 60s hippies. They met when they were both arrested during a Vietnam war protest rally. I was raised in the protest movement. I've been to several of the larger ones. I went to Manhattan for the 2004 Bush coronation. Where I learned that the modern protest movement was full of crap. People like Michael Moore, Jesse Jackson, et al, they are not in it for the sake of the movement. They are there for the sake of publicity. Most protests are staged for the sake of TV. No one wants to see the peaceful marchers (probably 90-95 percent of the movement). They want to see the violence.
My faith was permanently shattered when a news photographer offered me money to throw something at a police officer.

I have a masters degree from the University of California at Berkeley in Adolescent Psychology. I work in public schools. But I have also worked in a sexual assault trauma center, a psych ward, a counseling center and a few others. I counseled Hurricane Katrina refugees at the Houston Astrodome. I've talked with gang members and gang victims.

This post is not to brag on myself. It is merely to state that you are not telling anyone what they don't know already.
DP has members who have gone to war. They have seen things I can't even imagine happening.
We all have our crosses to bear. We don't need new ones. :thumb:

Love, Gabriella


^^^ I love me some Gabby, I don't care what the rest of you neanderthals think. :dance:

[Wind Song]

Dear Wind Song:
I think you are trying too hard to make an impression among this community. I have been among these people for many years. I rarely agree with them, but I know that this is a very learned group (well, some of them are :p ).

My parents were 60s hippies. They met when they were both arrested during a Vietnam war protest rally. I was raised in the protest movement. I've been to several of the larger ones. I went to Manhattan for the 2004 Bush coronation. Where I learned that the modern protest movement was full of crap. People like Michael Moore, Jesse Jackson, et al, they are not in it for the sake of the movement. They are there for the sake of publicity. Most protests are staged for the sake of TV. No one wants to see the peaceful marchers (probably 90-95 percent of the movement). They want to see the violence.
My faith was permanently shattered when a news photographer offered me money to throw something at a police officer.

I have a masters degree from the University of California at Berkeley in Adolescent Psychology. I work in public schools. But I have also worked in a sexual assault trauma center, a psych ward, a counseling center and a few others. I counseled Hurricane Katrina refugees at the Houston Astrodome. I've talked with gang members and gang victims.

This post is not to brag on myself. It is merely to state that you are not telling anyone what they don't know already.
DP has members who have gone to war. They have seen things I can't even imagine happening.
We all have our crosses to bear. We don't need new ones. :thumb:

Love, Gabriella

Please be specific about EXACTLY what topics won't set off this posting community.

Thank you.

[ConHog]

Please be specific about EXACTLY what topics won't set off this posting community.

Thank you.

It's not the topics WS - it's your approach. Why are you incapable of understanding that? Take your recent black woman and rape thread... What the hell? You're talking about the past as if they are relevant to today......... Sheesh.

[Wind Song]

It's not the topics WS - it's your approach. Why are you incapable of understanding that? Take your recent black woman and rape thread... What the hell? You're talking about the past as if they are relevant to today......... Sheesh.


How many people in this country know that it was once legal to rape black women? We're discussing history of the rape crisis movement.

[jimnyc]

How many people in this country know that it was once legal to rape black women? We're discussing history of the rape crisis movement.

Even kids in grammar school are aware that slaves were treated as property - about a century ago. You think your "victim" tales from years ago are new news, but even little children know about this repetitive victim crap you spew.

[Dilloduck]

How many people in this country know that it was once legal to rape black women? We're discussing history of the rape crisis movement.


What---We need to inform them all of the plight of black people AGAIN ? Are you running out of victims or people who will bleed for them?

[Wind Song]

What's wrong with discussing the role that black women played in the rape crisis movement?

[jimnyc]

What's wrong with discussing the role that black women played in the rape crisis movement?

Honesty

[fj1200]

How many people in this country know that it was once legal to rape black women? We're discussing history of the rape crisis movement.

Have you documented that yet? If not and it's not true then your adamant protestations are harmful to your objective.

[jimnyc]

Have you documented that yet? If not and it's not true then your adamant protestations are harmful to your objective.

She won't directly answer this - ever.

[fj1200]

She won't directly answer this - ever.

I'll add it to my mental talking point listing then. :laugh:

[Wind Song]

Have you documented that yet? If not and it's not true then your adamant protestations are harmful to your objective.

No, it came up in a training. During slavery it was acceptable for slave owners to rape their slaves. It was illegal for a black to rape a white woman, but not the opposite.

Colonial laws regarding statutory rape were not applied to Blacks and Indians. Indians and Blacks, as well as their children, were prohibited by law from defending themselves against abuse, sexual and otherwise, at the hands of Whites. A slave who defended herself against the attack of a White person was subject to cruel beatings by either the master or mistress.
http://academic.udayton.edu/race/05intersection/gender/rape.htm

[fj1200]

No, it came up in a training.

You should ask them to document it then. If they can't it's mere propaganda. In slavery, blacks were property unfortunately and the owners had an interest in not harming their property. Also, I imagine it was illegal for anyone to rape a white woman. You also mentioned under Jim Crow??? Also, "acceptable" is different than legal.

[Wind Song]

You should ask them to document it then. If they can't it's mere propaganda. In slavery, blacks were property unfortunately and the owners had an interest in not harming their property. Also, I imagine it was illegal for anyone to rape a white woman. You also mentioned under Jim Crow???


It's not propaganda. It comes up in a number of scholarly articles. Are you saying you don't believe it? You think it's impossible that it was legal for white slave owners to rape their black slaves?

[fj1200]

It's not propaganda. It comes up in a number of scholarly articles. Are you saying you don't believe it? You think it's impossible that it was legal for white slave owners to rape their black slaves?

If it's false, it's propaganda. What I'm saying is that there are plenty of examples in our history of abhorrent behavior that things shouldn't need to be falsified to make a point.

[Dilloduck]

It's not propaganda. It comes up in a number of scholarly articles. Are you saying you don't believe it? You think it's impossible that it was legal for white slave owners to rape their black slaves?

So exactly how does that help us work with anger these days ?

[Wind Song]

Newspapers reported rapes by white and black men differently. When a white man was the defendant, papers focused on the atrocity of the specific act. When blacks were accused of rape, newspapers emphasized the crime as a wrong committed by a member of a racial group.

Moreover, newspaper reports on rape prosecutions made the victim's identity integral to the report of the rape. Such reporting highlighted rape as a black-on-white crime, while white-on-white rapes were treated as attacks by single misguided individuals.

In so doing, colonial newspapers used race as an ideological construction that imputed causation to supposed racial differences: blackness indicated uncontrolled sexual behavior.(n2) While newspapers did not create racial ideologies apart from legal and other social influences, they could be an influential means to distribute and sustain racial beliefs. As James N. Green has written, "Since taverns and coffeehouses subscribed to them, and since they were often read aloud, their impact on daily life must have been considerable."(n3) Thus, a careful examination of colonial newspapers shows how the colonial press helped to create or perpetuate racially-based understandings of sexual assaults.
http://www.d.umn.edu/cla/faculty/jhamlin/3925/Readings/Colonial.html

[Dilloduck]

Newspapers reported rapes by white and black men differently. When a white man was the defendant, papers focused on the atrocity of the specific act. When blacks were accused of rape, newspapers emphasized the crime as a wrong committed by a member of a racial group.

Moreover, newspaper reports on rape prosecutions made the victim's identity integral to the report of the rape. Such reporting highlighted rape as a black-on-white crime, while white-on-white rapes were treated as attacks by single misguided individuals.

In so doing, colonial newspapers used race as an ideological construction that imputed causation to supposed racial differences: blackness indicated uncontrolled sexual behavior.(n2) While newspapers did not create racial ideologies apart from legal and other social influences, they could be an influential means to distribute and sustain racial beliefs. As James N. Green has written, "Since taverns and coffeehouses subscribed to them, and since they were often read aloud, their impact on daily life must have been considerable."(n3) Thus, a careful examination of colonial newspapers shows how the colonial press helped to create or perpetuate racially-based understandings of sexual assaults.
http://www.d.umn.edu/cla/faculty/jhamlin/3925/Readings/Colonial.html

This isn't about anger. It's about how fucked up the media was in colonial days. They haven't changed much either. I pity all the poor people who have to listen to that and will offer them free counseling so they can get over it.

[fj1200]

Newspapers reported rapes by white and black men differently. When a white man was the defendant, papers focused on the atrocity of the specific act. When blacks were accused of rape, newspapers emphasized the crime as a wrong committed by a member of a racial group.

Moreover, newspaper reports on rape prosecutions made the victim's identity integral to the report of the rape. Such reporting highlighted rape as a black-on-white crime, while white-on-white rapes were treated as attacks by single misguided individuals.

In so doing, colonial newspapers used race as an ideological construction that imputed causation to supposed racial differences: blackness indicated uncontrolled sexual behavior.(n2) While newspapers did not create racial ideologies apart from legal and other social influences, they could be an influential means to distribute and sustain racial beliefs. As James N. Green has written, "Since taverns and coffeehouses subscribed to them, and since they were often read aloud, their impact on daily life must have been considerable."(n3) Thus, a careful examination of colonial newspapers shows how the colonial press helped to create or perpetuate racially-based understandings of sexual assaults.
http://www.d.umn.edu/cla/faculty/jhamlin/3925/Readings/Colonial.html

Why are you surprised? Blacks were looked at quite differently back then.


In 1736 a Pennsylvania newspaper reported, "Saturday last was tried here a Negro Man for Ravishing a White Woman near Derby, and is condemn'd to be hang'd. Tis said that Saturday next is apointed for his Execution." Eighteen years later, the same newspaper noted, "Last Thursday Night, one James Gale, a Taylor, was sent to our Goal, for committing a rape on the Body of a Child about six Years old."(n1) These brief notices were typical reports on rape in colonial American newspapers.

It also appears that both were put to death for their crime.

[Wind Song]

If it's false, it's propaganda. What I'm saying is that there are plenty of examples in our history of abhorrent behavior that things shouldn't need to be falsified to make a point.

It's not false though. It is true that a slave owner was entitled to rape his slaves.

[fj1200]

It's not false though. It is true that a slave owner was entitled to rape his slaves.

Backing away from "legal" I see. Nobody has stated that it didn't happen.

How about under Jim Crow???

[ConHog]

It's not false though. It is true that a slave owner was entitled to rape his slaves.

Actually, the vast majority of slave owners did NOT mistreat their female slaves, including rape. Money being the reason. I don't go out and beat the shit out of my cows either, need them healthy to deliver healthy children I can raise and sell. Now that in itself is disgusting that people were selling other people; but the fact remains, only a small percentage of assholes were running around raping their black slaves. ANd a rapist is a rapist, I'd wager they were also raping white women when the opportunity presented itself.

[tailfins]

No, it came up in a training. During slavery it was acceptable for slave owners to rape their slaves.[/URL]

I'm going to call bulls**t on your post! The below was Alabama law on the topic:


If any white person and any Negro, or the descendant of any Negro, to the third generation inclusive, though one ancestor of each generation was a white person, intermarry or live in adultery or fornication with each other, each of them must on conviction be imprisoned in the penitentiary, or sentenced to hard labor for the county for not less than two nor more than seven years.

Miscegenation was illegal whether consensual or not.

[ConHog]

I'm going to call bulls**t on your post! The below was Alabama law on the topic:



Miscegenation was illegal whether consensual or not.

I'm not defending WS's stupid thread, BUT no white man was ever charged with the crime of fucking a black chick. That law was meant solely for the black man/white woman.

[tailfins]

I'm not defending WS's stupid thread, BUT no white man was ever charged with the crime of f-ing a black chick. That law was meant solely for the black man/white woman.

Both parties were prosecuted in Alabama. Society considered it bestiality.

[ConHog]

Both parties were prosecuted in Alabama. Society considered it bestiality.

I challenge you to find one case of a white guy being prosecuted.

[tailfins]

I challenge you to find one case of a white guy being prosecuted.


The final defendant in this series of cases, George Smith, was a white man accused of living in adultery with Mattie Leonard, a young black woman, in 1916

http://www.historycooperative.org/journals/lhr/20.2/novkov.html

[Wind Song]

Excuse me guys, but this is the working with anger thread, not the black women in history thread.

[tailfins]

Excuse me guys, but this is the working with anger thread, not the black women in history thread.

It's not practical to start a new thread to correct someone's error, namely yours. You incorrectly stated that it was accepted for white men to rape black women. I pointed out that it was considered bestiality and thus not accepted.

[Wind Song]

It's not practical to start a new thread to correct someone's error, namely yours. You incorrectly stated that it was accepted for white men to rape black women. I pointed out that it was considered bestiality and thus not accepted.


Wow. You think black women are animals and it's acceptable to rape them?

[tailfins]

Wow. You think black women are animals and it's acceptable to rape them?

You must have failed both History AND Logic. If it were considered bestiality, it wouldn't have been acceptable. I'm trying to follow your thought processes, however it's like trying to drive a car with no gas.

Dorothy, you're the gift that keeps on giving! Who needs Jerry Springer?

[ConHog]

Wow. You think black women are animals and it's acceptable to rape them?

Come on!! Why do you do shit like that?

[Wind Song]

Come on!! Why do you do shit like that?

Because I read too fast. I'm in a hurry.

[tailfins]

Come on!! Why do you do shit like that?


My vote is Lysergic Acid Diethylamide is why she does things like that.

[gabosaurus]

I see no reason why anyone needs to know about the "history" of rape. Not when there is so much ignorance about rape itself.
There are still people who are ignorant enough to think that rape is about sex. Not to mention fools and assholes (including a lot of lawyers and judges) who believe that some women "invite" or "deserve" sexual assaults because of the way they dress or the way they act.
If you want to become violently ill, attend a rape trial. Watch as attorneys put the woman on trial instead of the perpetrator.

Rape is about power. It is about a male forcing himself on a female, regardless of her race, ethnicity, age or public appearance. Rape victims can be elderly, disabled, disfigured or grossly obese.

And save the garbage about "women can be rapists as well." More than 98 percent of rapists are male.

[ConHog]

Because I read too fast. I'm in a hurry.

I know youre always in such a hurry to bust someones chops that you wind up msking an ass out of yourself. I mean we all occasionally misinterpret a post, but youve made it an art form.

Slow down and dont be so eager for the gotcha and youde br a lot more palatable to the rest of us

[Wind Song]

I know youre always in such a hurry to bust someones chops that you wind up msking an ass out of yourself. I mean we all occasionally misinterpret a post, but youve made it an art form.

Slow down and dont be so eager for the gotcha and youde br a lot more palatable to the rest of us

Being "palatable" isn't a personal goal.

[Dilloduck]

Being "palatable" isn't a personal goal.

What IS your personal goal ?

[Wind Song]

What IS your personal goal ?

Can't tell you. It's "personal".:laugh:

[tailfins]

I see no reason why anyone needs to know about the "history" of rape. Not when there is so much ignorance about rape itself.
There are still people who are ignorant enough to think that rape is about sex. Not to mention fools and assholes (including a lot of lawyers and judges) who believe that some women "invite" or "deserve" sexual assaults because of the way they dress or the way they act.
If you want to become violently ill, attend a rape trial. Watch as attorneys put the woman on trial instead of the perpetrator.

Rape is about power. It is about a male forcing himself on a female, regardless of her race, ethnicity, age or public appearance. Rape victims can be elderly, disabled, disfigured or grossly obese.

And save the garbage about "women can be rapists as well." More than 98 percent of rapists are male.

It's no different than the history of auto theft or the history of arson or Al Capone. I thought you lefties were the first to complain about people being hostile to knowledge. Women do themselves a disservice by fixating on rape. It causes the average guy to view dating as a risk, perhaps one not worth taking in most cases. Once you get beyond the obvious definition, you're entering manipulation territory.

[ConHog]

It's no different than the history of auto theft or the history of arson or Al Capone. I thought you lefties were the first to complain about people being hostile to knowledge. Women do themselves a disservice by fixating on rape. It causes the average guy to view dating as a risk, perhaps one not worth taking in most cases. Once you get beyond the obvious definition, you're entering manipulation territory.

You do YOUR self a disservice lumping Gabby in with "you liberals" she's actually maturing into a very moderate person.........

[Wind Song]

It's no different than the history of auto theft or the history of arson or Al Capone. I thought you lefties were the first to complain about people being hostile to knowledge. Women do themselves a disservice by fixating on rape. It causes the average guy to view dating as a risk, perhaps one not worth taking in most cases. Once you get beyond the obvious definition, you're entering manipulation territory.


That's an interesting position. Most men I know are very supportive of women when it comes to rape.

You're an exception.

[ConHog]

Being "palatable" isn't a personal goal.

I actually do not believe that. Every person posting on a message board wants to be accepted by the other people on that board. Those who protest the loudest are those who want it most.

The think is Sky, the board as a whole WANTS to accept you. We all understand that this board would suck with no liberals on it.

But you don't know how to get along. Which is bad enough but many on here are even giving you advice on how you could get a long with us better. But you won't listen. Why? All your screaming about we don't want you here and blah blah is for naught Sky. Take some of the advice given and you'll be fine here.

Why can't , or won't , you make the effort? You expect every other member to just tolerate and love you as you are while you yourself make NO effort. That's not fair of you.

[ConHog]

That's an interesting position. Most men I know are very supportive of women when it comes to rape.

You're an exception.

You misinterpret once again. Do you do it on purpose? He said nothing to warrant your remark.

[Wind Song]

You misinterpret once again. Do you do it on purpose? He said nothing to warrant your remark.


He was whining about date rape. God forbid a man has to get consent first.

[tailfins]

You misinterpret once again. Do you do it on purpose? He said nothing to warrant your remark.

What kind of Lysergic Acid Diethylamide do you suppose she takes? Black Star? Purple Microdot? Orange Sunshine?

[Wind Song]

What kind of Lysergic Acid Diethylamide do you suppose she takes? Black Star? Purple Microdot? Orange Sunshine?

Orange sunshine 1970. Maybe I'm having flashbacks.

[fj1200]

Because I read too fast. I'm in a hurry.

Maybe quality should be the goal and not quantity. Comprehension, not speed.

[Wind Song]

Maybe quality should be the goal and not quantity. Comprehension, not speed.

Thank you. Not a bad suggestion. I'm open to suggestions, not advice or criticism.

[Wind Song]

Review:

Four Steps

1. Observe what happened. (Just the facts)

2. Be aware of the feelings the event generated.

3. Discover what unmet needs are present for you and the other person.

4. Make a request that meets both people's needs as much as possible.