George Zimmerman wasn't injured?

[jimnyc]

I wonder if those who swore he wasn't injured, based on prior video, to now acknowledge they were wrong for jumping the gun. But we know that'll never happen. Here is a photo of the back of Zimmerman's head that night.

http://abcnews.go.com/images/US/ht_george_zimmerman_head_dm_120419_wmain.jpg

http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zimmerman-case-exclusive-photo-shows-bloodied-back/story?id=16177849#.T5FmHNWQmct

[Wildmon Wilder]

Neither the origin or the subject of that photograph has been verified by anyone at this time.

[Dilloduck]

That rarely stops anyone from making wild speculations.

[Anton Chigurh]

Neither the origin or the subject of that photograph has been verified by anyone at this time.Actually, it has. Both the defense and the prosecution have done so. It's also timestamped.

[Nukeman]

Neither the origin or the subject of that photograph has been verified by anyone at this time.

Uhh that would be a huge YOU ARE WRONG. this pic was admitted into evidence for the bail hearing on zimmerman. it was taken on an Iphone with time-stamp and gps location. it was taken by one of Zimmermans neighbors 2 min. after the shooting.

Try again to discredit the pic!!!!!:poke:

[Anton Chigurh]

They have no case, otherwise they wouldn't have bypassed the Grand Jury, which is almost always a rubber stamp for the prosecutor. She knows there is no case and is doing this dog and pony show to appease the JustusBots out there that wanted a arrest and a perp walk. This of course backfires when she has to dismiss the charges, coming soon.

Really doesn't look good when the lead investigator has to admit on the stand there is no evidence of how the fight started, as happened today.

The state of Florida better fervently hope Zimmerman doesn't wind up suing them for a false arrest/imprisonment beef.

[Anton Chigurh]

Uhh that would be a huge YOU ARE WRONG. this pic was admitted into evidence for the bail hearing on zimmerman. it was taken on an Iphone with time-stamp and gps location. it was taken by one of Zimmermans neighbors 2 min. after the shooting.

Try again to discredit the pic!!!!!:poke:After the JustusBots got their arrest and perp walk, for the most part they stopped following this case. They will be back with shrill, fever pitch when the prosecutor finally has to drop the charges.

[Nukeman]

After the JustusBots got their arrest and perp walk, for the most part they stopped following this case. They will be back with shrill, fever pitch when the prosecutor finally has to drop the charges.I think it was all about appeasment of the minorities in FL, them and the race baiters.. This charge will be plea bargained down to involuntary manslaughter f it isnt tossed out all together (later after all the race baiters go home)...

[Anton Chigurh]

I think it was all about appeasment of the minorities in FL, them and the race baiters.. This charge will be plea bargained down to involuntary manslaughter f it isnt tossed out all together (later after all the race baiters go home)...AKA, "JustusBots."

There is no case, it will be tossed out. No defense attorney in his right mind is gonna do any type of a plea deal.

[Kathianne]

A trial will be held, but seems there are ample cautions to be thrown at prosecutors:

http://justoneminute.typepad.com/main/2012/04/zimmerman-bond-hearing-media-reaction.html


April 20, 2012

Zimmerman Bond Hearing - Media Reaction

Let's follow up our highlights and lowlights (http://justoneminute.typepad.com/main/2012/04/the-george-zimmerman-bail-hearing.html) of the Zimmerman bond hearing with some media reaction. Here is the local paper, the Orlando Sentinel (http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-04-20/news/os-george-zimmerman-bond-hearing-20120420_1_special-prosecutor-angela-corey-robert-zimmerman-son), which leads with the weak prosecution case:
George Zimmerman granted $150K bond, apologizes to Trayvon Martin's family
SANFORD — At a hearing that legal experts said exposed flaws in the state's case, the Trayvon Martin (http://www.orlandosentinel.com/topic/PEOCVC000188.topic) special prosecutor failed Friday to convince a judge that gunman George Zimmerman (http://www.orlandosentinel.com/topic/PECLB0000014809.topic) should stay locked up.

The judge set bond at $150,000, meaning Zimmerman could be freed from the Seminole County Jail in a few days.

Most revealing in the hearing, though, was testimony by prosecution Investigator Dale Gilbreath, a surprise witness for the defense.

He admitted under oath that authorities do not know who started the fight between Zimmerman, a Neighborhood Watch volunteer, and Martin, the black 17-year-old whose death has spurred protests across the country.

Lawyers for Trayvon's family have insisted that Zimmerman tracked down and killed the Miami Gardens teenager because he was black.

But Zimmerman told police he fired in self-defense after Trayvon threw the first punch, knocked Zimmerman to the ground and then began pounding his head against a sidewalk.

In the courtroom, Gilbreath also testified that although the FBI (http://www.orlandosentinel.com/topic/ORGOV000008.topic) has analyzed a voice heard screaming for help in the background of a 911 call, it has produced no meaningful results [who just (http://justoneminute.typepad.com/main/2012/04/i-said-it-couldnt-be-done.html) wouldn't (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=site%3Ajustoneminute.typepad.com%20tom%20owen%20 voice&source=web&cd=4&ved=0CDQQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fjustoneminute.typepad.com%2Fmain% 2F2012%2F04%2Fare-there-any-media-people-in-new-york-city.html&ei=wyWST-exOa2N6QGCmryzBA&usg=AFQjCNGcPIpWzqzC5687TUDTmmL1V-ZYoQ&cad=rja) pipe (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=site%3Ajustoneminute.typepad.com%20tom%20owen%20 voice&source=web&cd=5&ved=0CDoQFjAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fjustoneminute.typepad.com%2Fmain% 2F2012%2F04%2Fmore-voice-experts-heard-from.html&ei=wyWST-exOa2N6QGCmryzBA&usg=AFQjCNHg2If4KzaZIQUUr7nibARvC1BiXA&cad=rja) down (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=site%3Ajustoneminute.typepad.com%20tom%20owen%20 voice&source=web&cd=8&ved=0CEwQFjAH&url=http%3A%2F%2Fjustoneminute.typepad.com%2Fmain% 2F2012%2F04%2Fscreams-versus-speech-evidence-of-homework-done-by-media.html&ei=wyWST-exOa2N6QGCmryzBA&usg=AFQjCNG9saSIElGpo9B-VIndVgOCUW5FDw&cad=rja) about that?].

Trayvon's family says the voice is that of their son. Zimmerman's family says it belongs to the defendant.

Michael Grieco, a defense attorney and former prosecutor for the Miami (http://www.orlandosentinel.com/topic/PLGEO100100408120000.topic)-Dade State Attorney's Office, said it appeared Gilbreath "either was unprepared or, alternatively, didn't have a whole lot to hang his hat on" in terms of evidence.

"I expected a lot more from the state," Grieco said. Though others have cautioned that significant evidence is still forthcoming, Grieco said he's not so sure. "You don't usually hold back your evidence in these types of hearings."

A bit of a skip and then this:

A few new pieces of evidence did come out Friday.

How close, asked the judge, was the gun to the victim when it was fired?

So close, said Gilbreath, that there were burns on Trayvon's sweat shirt and skin.

Gilbreath also said the state had a witness who reported seeing the shadows of two people running, one chasing the other, but could not identify who they were.

Although Gilbreath offered little evidence Friday that portrayed Zimmerman as a murderer, he said he did have evidence proving him a liar.

The powder burns will be more important than the shadows. No testimony was offered as to which shadow was black and which White Hispanic.

Their coverage omits the revelations (http://justoneminute.typepad.com/main/2012/04/the-george-zimmerman-bail-hearing.html) that the lead investigator had not gotten Zimmerman's medical records and could not contradict Zimmerman's claim that he followed the dispatcher's suggestion and was headed back to his car when he was attacked.

The NY Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/21/us/george-zimmerman-bail-hearing.html?_r=1&hp) leads with the apology and gets to this:

As part of his effort to win Mr. Zimmerman’s release on bond, Mr. O’Mara challenged the prosecution’s case, going through the state’s probable cause affidavit (http://www.sao4th.com/documents/Zimmerman%20Probable%20Cause%20Document.pdf) line by line, turning the bail hearing into what appeared to be a foretaste of the trial.

He aggressively questioned a state investigator, Dale Gilbreath, about the accusation that Mr. Zimmerman had racially profiled Mr. Martin, and he demanded to know what evidence the state had for the statement that “Zimmerman confronted Martin and a struggle ensued.”

“Do you know who started the fight?” Mr. O’Mara asked Mr. Gilbreath.

“Do I know?” Mr. Gilbreath said. “No.”

Mr. O’Mara then asked Mr. Gilbreath if the state had any evidence to contradict Mr. Zimmerman’s statement to the police that he had been making his way back to his car when he was punched by Mr. Martin. Mr. Zimmerman told investigators he shot Mr. Martin in self-defense after Mr. Martin banged his head on concrete, covered his nose and mouth and reached for his gun.

Mr. Gilbreath responded, “No.”

Here is the AP (http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/bail-set-150000-trayvon-martin-shooting-16180885?page=2#.T5Im9NmrSSo):

The hearing provided a few glimpses of the strengths — and weaknesses — in the case being built by prosecutors.

Dale Gilbreath, an investigator for the prosecution, testified that he does not know whether Martin or Zimmerman threw the first punch and that there is no evidence to disprove Zimmerman's contention he was walking back to his vehicle when confronted by Martin.

But Gilbreath also said Zimmerman's claim that Martin was slamming his head against the sidewalk just before he shot the teenager was "not consistent with the evidence we found." He gave no details.

That gives short shrift to the defense rebuttal attempt which produced this exchange (http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1204/20/cnr.02.html) as recorded by CNN:

COSTELLO: Back live to the bond hearing in Sanford, Florida. Mark O'Mara, who is George Zimmerman's attorney is doing another redirect of the state's attorney investigator. They're talking about what injuries George Zimmerman had to his head that night. Let's listen.

GILBREATH: Managed to scoot away from the concrete sidewalk and that is at that point is when the shooting subsequently followed. That is not consistent with the evidence we found.

O'MARA: The injuries seem to be consistent with his story, though, don't they? [ABC pic] (http://justoneminute.typepad.com/main/2012/04/abc-has-new-photo-of-bloodied-zimmerman.html)

Dale; The injuries are consistent with a harder object striking the back of his head than his head was.

O'MARA: Could that be cement?

GILBREATH: Could be.

O'MARA: Did you just say it was consistent or did you say it wasn't consistent?

GILBREATH: I said it was.

I say the AP shortchanged us.

Reuters (http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/20/us-usa-florida-shooting-idUSBRE83J0JT20120420) caught the apology but missed the flaws in the prosecution case.

NBC News (http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/04/20/11304742-zimmermans-bond-set-at-150000-he-apologizes-to-trayvon-martins-parents?lite), aided by NBC Miami and the AP, led with the apology and found this to say about the prosecution case:

Dale Gilbreath, the investigator, said he couldn't remember who came up with the use of the word "profiling" in the document.

Gilbreath added that Zimmerman had two lacerations on his head, which could have been caused by impact with cement.

Zimmerman claims self-defense in the shooting. ABC News says it has obtained an exclusive photo (http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zimmerman-case-exclusive-photo-shows-bloodied-back/story?id=16177849#.T5FYvNWARBk) of the back of Zimmerman's head, which appears bloody and may help substantiate his claims.

ABC News (http://justoneminute.typepad.com/main/2012/04/In%20a%20dramatic%20moment%20during%20the%20hearin g,%20a%20detective,%20under%20questioning%20from%2 0O%27Mara,%20admitted%20that%20it%20has%20no%20cle ar%20evidence%20that%20Zimmerman%20attacked%20Tray von%20Martin%20first.) spends a lot of time on their exclusive photo (http://justoneminute.typepad.com/main/2012/04/abc-has-new-photo-of-bloodied-zimmerman.html) in a story I read as favorable to Zimmerman. However, on the day in court they offer this on the prosecution fail:

In a dramatic moment during the hearing, a detective, under questioning from O'Mara, admitted that it has no clear evidence that Zimmerman attacked Trayvon Martin first.

I wonder if Mr. and Mrs. America will come away from the Elite media coverage realizing just how weak a case the prosecution seems to have.

[tailfins]

Well known defense attorney Alan Dershowitz (a Harvard liberal) refers to this as an example of Florida prosecutors being "not only immoral, but stupid".


"I've had cases in Florida against prosecutors,” Dershowitz said, “and this is not the first time they have willfully omitted exculpatory evidence. It's a continuing problem. Here, it’s not only immoral, but stupid. The whole country is watching. What do they benefit from having half-truths in an affidavit?"

Dershowitz added, "I'm not taking sides, but I'm insisting that both sides play by the rules, and so far the prosecution is not playing by the rules."

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2012/04/20/Dershowitz-prosecution-immoral

[Anton Chigurh]

A trial will be held, but seems there are ample cautions to be thrown at prosecutors:

http://justoneminute.typepad.com/main/2012/04/zimmerman-bond-hearing-media-reaction.htmlYeah, can't relly have a trial without evidence. Judge throws this out in a pretrial motion.

[krisy]

Yeah, can't relly have a trial without evidence. Judge throws this out in a pretrial motion.


Megan Kelley said this on her show the other day,it can be thrown out if the judge feels the stand your ground law applies.

This boys parents need to get away from all these black leaders and need someone that truly has their best interest in mind. These people are so distraught and are being taken advantage of. Their team of 8,000 lawyers that are making rounds on all the news shows also come off unproffessional. We saw the parents on Fox a couple of weeks ago and dad said in no uncertain terms,"this is not racial" Then why run around with Sharpton and Jackson?!

As the facts come out in this case,the media has been proven to be the fools that we know they are. There has not been a story reported on as poorly as this. Facts being left out,judgemet thrown in,opinions thrown in. ABSURD! Forget Obama,the media will destroy this country.

[Anton Chigurh]

Neither the origin or the subject of that photograph has been verified by anyone at this time.This little talking point trial balloon sure went >p0p< very fast... I hope it's not a example of your statement of "I like to be proactive and I like to think.":laugh:

[jimnyc]

Neither the origin or the subject of that photograph has been verified by anyone at this time.

I suppose everyone else beat me to this since I've been gone a bit. But this picture was verified when I posted it.

[fj1200]

Interesting background piece on Zimmerman. Gives a bit of insight into some of the actions he took prior to the shooting.

George Zimmerman: Prelude to a shooting (http://news.yahoo.com/george-zimmerman-prelude-shooting-194235114.html)

The third time he saw the dog on the loose, he called again. An officer came to the house, county records show."Don't use pepper spray," he told the Zimmermans, according to a friend. "It'll take two or three seconds to take effect, but a quarter second for the dog to jump you," he said.
"Get a gun."

...

Zimmerman's maternal grandmother, Cristina, who had lived with the Zimmermans since 1978, worked as a babysitter for years during Zimmerman's childhood. For several years she cared for two African-American girls who ate their meals at the Zimmerman house and went back and forth to school each day with the Zimmerman children.
...

On February 2, 2012, Zimmerman placed a call to Sanford police after spotting a young black man he recognized peering into the windows of a neighbor's empty home, according to several friends and neighbors.
"I don't know what he's doing. I don't want to approach him, personally," Zimmerman said in the call, which was recorded. The dispatcher advised him that a patrol car was on the way. By the time police arrived, according to the dispatch report, the suspect had fled.
...
The last time Zimmerman had called police, to report Burgess, he followed protocol and waited for police to arrive. They were too late, and Burgess got away.
This time, Zimmerman was not so patient, and he disregarded police advice against pursuing Martin.
"These assholes," he muttered in an aside, "they always get away."

[Wind Song]

Interesting background piece on Zimmerman. Gives a bit of insight into some of the actions he took prior to the shooting.George Zimmerman: Prelude to a shooting (http://news.yahoo.com/george-zimmerman-prelude-shooting-194235114.html)It sure does. Thanks for posting it.

[jimnyc]

It sure does. Thanks for posting it.

What do YOU think of the photo and Zimmerman's injuries? You were quick to jump on his "lack" of injuries in the videotape that was out, but here is a picture of mere minutes after the scuffle showing blood from at least 2 injuries on the back of his head, and one of those injuries is clearly a "gash" type wound.

[Wind Song]

What do YOU think of the photo and Zimmerman's injuries? You were quick to jump on his "lack" of injuries in the videotape that was out, but here is a picture of mere minutes after the scuffle showing blood from at least 2 injuries on the back of his head, and one of those injuries is clearly a "gash" type wound.

I don't think anything one way or the other. I want to hear what the prosecution has to say and the evidence.

[SassyLady]

I don't think anything one way or the other. I want to hear what the prosecution has to say and the evidence.

What changed your mind? Because you were ready to lynch the man a couple of weeks ago.

[Peach]

Not taken to a hospital, says he went to a doctor the next day. He was in good enough mental shape to be interviewed for HOURS that night, according to reports.

[Missileman]

Not taken to a hospital, says he went to a doctor the next day. He was in good enough mental shape to be interviewed for HOURS that night, according to reports.

None of which refutes Zimmerman's account of what happened one iota.

[jimnyc]

I don't think anything one way or the other. I want to hear what the prosecution has to say and the evidence.

Interesting, when you thought the video showed no sign of an injury you didn't say the same thing.


Not taken to a hospital, says he went to a doctor the next day. He was in good enough mental shape to be interviewed for HOURS that night, according to reports.

He went to the hospital the next day and had his broken nose treated and his wounds tended to, he simply turned down the hospital that evening. But it's obvious that he WAS having his head bashed into something, and grass doesn't cut a gash into your head like that. It sounds to me like his story, Zimmerman, that Trayvon was bashing his head into the cement, is backed up by injuries. Just as his broken nose backs up what he told investigators mere minutes after their arrival.

[fj1200]

Not taken to a hospital, says he went to a doctor the next day. He was in good enough mental shape to be interviewed for HOURS that night, according to reports.

OK. And???

[Peach]

None of which refutes Zimmerman's account of what happened one iota.

HIS account may be somewhat BIASED.

[Missileman]

HIS account may be somewhat BIASED.

Sure...but so far, nothing has been put forth that makes his account less than 100% accurate.

[jon_forward]

While it is sad a young life ended so tragically. was the victim of what appears to be a violent mugging just suppose to lay there and take the beating and maybe get killed or protect himself from further harm? If you think the race card is being played here you would be right. Sharpton and Co are hard at it.If you or any of your loved ones were being beaten what would you do? Thats what I thought you would say.

[LuvRPgrl]

Big deal, the slightest nick to the head will bleed profusely
You.all are so desperate for z to be innocent you are stretching for crap like thisl.
The picture in no way shows HOW it happened, or proves that trayvon did it.

The injury looks concocted to any impartial observer, which none of you are, strange that wou a straight cut along a round object occurred, how exactly would hitting someones head into concrete do this?
Oh yea, that savage who attacked z with skittles was trying to scalp him, THATS IT........!!!!



I wonder if those who swore he wasn't injured, based on priordeo, to now acknowledge they were wrong for jumping the gun. But we know that'll never happen. Here is a photo of the back of Zimmerman's head that night.

http://abcnews.go.com/images/US/ht_george_zimmerman_head_dm_120419_wmain.jpg

http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zimmerman-case-exclusive-photo-shows-bloodied-back/story?id=16177849#.T5FmHNWQmct

[jimnyc]

Big deal, the slightest nick to the head will bleed profusely
You.all are so desperate for z to be innocent you are stretching for crap like thisl.
The picture in no way shows HOW it happened, or proves that trayvon did it.

The injury looks concocted to any impartial observer, which none of you are, strange that wou a straight cut along a round object occurred, how exactly would hitting someones head into concrete do this?
Oh yea, that savage who attacked z with skittles was trying to scalp him, THATS IT........!!!!

Considering this picture was taken mere moments after the police and medics arrived, your post looks a little foolish, especially since it was also verified.

[Nukeman]

Big deal, the slightest nick to the head will bleed profusely
You.all are so desperate for z to be innocent you are stretching for crap like thisl.
The picture in no way shows HOW it happened, or proves that trayvon did it.

The injury looks concocted to any impartial observer, which none of you are, strange that wou a straight cut along a round object occurred, how exactly would hitting someones head into concrete do this?
Oh yea, that savage who attacked z with skittles was trying to scalp him, THATS IT........!!!!Really.. Have YOU ever seen head injuries?? I have A LOT.. ALMOST EVERY one of them goes in a straight line, Its caused by the skin SPLITTING!!!! Usually when the head is smashed into something it "splits" where the impact occurs! Are you really telling us YOU have NEVER seen a head wound????

I have 3 boys every one of them have had stitches and staples to the head NONE of those were anything other than straight even though they all occurred differently. I have worked in health care for over 21 years and EVERY person through the ER with head injuries unless they are puncture or cuts with a piece of metal or knife have all been straight. The skin DOES NOT tear in a zig-zag pattern

[jimnyc]

You.all are so desperate for z to be innocent you are stretching for crap like thisl.

The injury looks concocted to any impartial observer,

Funny, had to point it out. "We" are stretching things, by simply posting evidence, and that means we are desperate. Then a few sentences later, one goes on to say how not only does the verified picture look concocted, but that any impartial observer would see it that way. Awesome. :clap:

[jimnyc]

Really.. Have YOU ever seen head injuries?? I have A LOT.. ALMOST EVERY one of them goes in a straight line, Its caused by the skin SPLITTING!!!! Usually when the head is smashed into something it "splits" where the impact occurs! Are you really telling us YOU have NEVER seen a head wound????

I have 3 boys every one of them have had stitches and staples to the head NONE of those were anything other than straight even though they all occurred differently. I have worked in health care for over 21 years and EVERY person through the ER with head injuries unless they are puncture or cuts with a piece of metal or knife have all been straight. The skin DOES NOT tear in a zig-zag pattern

I'll look for a picture I have... When I was about 13 or so, I split the back of my head open - from landing on PAVEMENT, and got 21 stitches. It's a perfectly straight line, and is still quite visible to this day when I shave my head closely. Most head wounds are this way from hitting pavement/ice/solid object - but look differently if hit with an object.

[LuvRPgrl]

you guys are so desperate its laughable

[Kathianne]

you guys are so desperate its laughable

Actually this would be a case of pot and kettle, but the kettle is true.

[jimnyc]

you guys are so desperate its laughable

How does it make anyone desperate? I really don't care either way, but justice should be served regardless. In the mean time, the picture is valid and lends credibility to Z's story that his head was being hit into the ground. You disagreeing hardly makes us "desperate". And we're also sorry that injuries we've dealt with in our lives, and to ourselves, proved your other commentary incorrect.

[Nukeman]

you guys are so desperate its laughableCare to disprove 2 decades of hospital work?? REALLY, please do, I'm curious as how YOU think a head wound looks after hitting a blunt object?? Please supply pics, if you can.

You say WE are desperate, than prove it!!!!!
3436

This is a FALL hit his head Notice its straight!!!

3437

Another fall.. Once again NOTICE ITS STRAIGHT and pretty F-ing long!!! Hey YOU keep telling us WE are desperate..

Luv you're grasping at straws and this is the WRONG straw to grasp...

[Howard Roark]

What do YOU think of the photo and Zimmerman's injuries? You were quick to jump on his "lack" of injuries in the videotape that was out, but here is a picture of mere minutes after the scuffle showing blood from at least 2 injuries on the back of his head, and one of those injuries is clearly a "gash" type wound.

Do you believe those injuries were the result of 'life threatening' circumstances?

You are aware that there is no bruising on Martin's hands, as per the funeral director?

[Nukeman]

Do you believe those injuries were the result of 'life threatening' circumstances?

You are aware that there is no bruising on Martin's hands, as per the funeral director?Well if I had a hold of your head pounding it into the ground I wouldn't have bruises on my hands either!!! If my head was being beaten against the ground I would consider that a "life threatening circumstance"!!!

NOT everyone bruises when they punch or grab someone. I know from my own experience that when I use the heavy bag I bruise for the first few days than I stop because I toughen up my knuckles, Now if Tryavon is the thug that Zimmerman paints him to be I am sure he did his fair share of punching to toughen up his hands...

That however is pure speculation just as your assumption that he soft girly hands is.......

[Missileman]

Do you believe those injuries were the result of 'life threatening' circumstances?

You are aware that there is no bruising on Martin's hands, as per the funeral director?

If it were your head being slammed into the concrete, is it even remotely possible you might think your life is in danger?

Lack of bruising proves nothing. Punch your fist into the palm of your hand as hard as you can. Unless you're prone to easily bruising, you won't produce a bruise on your punching hand.

[Howard Roark]

If it were your head being slammed into the concrete, is it even remotely possible you might think your life is in danger?

Lack of bruising proves nothing. Punch your fist into the palm of your hand as hard as you can. Unless you're prone to easily bruising, you won't produce a bruise on your punching hand.

You believe that picture represents typical bruising on someone who 'had his head being slammed into concrete'?

[Howard Roark]

Well if I had a hold of your head pounding it into the ground I wouldn't have bruises on my hands either!!! If my head was being beaten against the ground I would consider that a "life threatening circumstance"!!!

NOT everyone bruises when they punch or grab someone. I know from my own experience that when I use the heavy bag I bruise for the first few days than I stop because I toughen up my knuckles, Now if Tryavon is the thug that Zimmerman paints him to be I am sure he did his fair share of punching to toughen up his hands...

That however is pure speculation just as your assumption that he soft girly hands is.......

I know all about toughening up knuckles from hitting a bag, or a makiwara. The problem with that assumption, is that there would be callusing on his hands, as well as enlarged knuckles.

[logroller]

You believe that picture represents typical bruising on someone who 'had his head being slammed into concrete'?

Which picture; the one taken at the scene ? Aren't bruises stagnated blood; so if he's bleeding, wouldn't that prevent a bruise from forming atleast until the bleeding stopped?


I know all about toughening up knuckles from hitting a bag, or a makiwara. The problem with that assumption, is that there would be callusing on his hands, as well as enlarged knuckles.

What does this have to do anything; were their pics of z& t's hands released?

[Nukeman]

I know all about toughening up knuckles from hitting a bag, or a makiwara. The problem with that assumption, is that there would be callusing on his hands, as well as enlarged knuckles.Was any mention made of Martins hands regarding calluses or enlarged knuckles (either present or absent) or are you assuming those were NOT present. Cant see how that would be mentioned if they were present..

Not every little detail is listed in a medical exam.... Don't recall ever hearing of calluses on the feet or anywhere else!!! Have you??

[logroller]

Hey nuke, am I right about bruising; if you were bleeding would it still bruise right then?

I have seen like major contusions form almost immediately, but not bruises.

[Nukeman]

Hey nuke, am I right about bruising; if you were bleeding would it still bruise right then?

I have seen like major contusions form almost immediately, but not bruises.Bruises are just blood under the skin... its pooling of the blood in such a manner as to be visible. IF Martin was beating Zimmerman and Zimmerman shot and killed him than there is the possibility that bruising of the knuckles would not have had time to occur, That is assuming that Martin had soft hands to start with!!!

[Howard Roark]

Was any mention made of Martins hands regarding calluses or enlarged knuckles (either present or absent) or are you assuming those were NOT present. Cant see how that would be mentioned if they were present..

Not every little detail is listed in a medical exam.... Don't recall ever hearing of calluses on the feet or anywhere else!!! Have you??

You ignore the fact that this investigation was not done properly at first. They attempted to sweep this under the rug, which is what caused the uproar.

The M.E didn't report the lack of evidence of a struggle. The funeral director did.

Further, Zimmerman's claim was that Martin slammed his head into the concrete 'repeatedly'. Are you trying to tell us that the picture offered as evidence in this thread represents repeated blows to concrete?

[Nukeman]

You ignore the fact that this investigation was not done properly at first. They attempted to sweep this under the rug, which is what caused the uproar.

The M.E didn't report the lack of evidence of a struggle. The funeral director did.

Further, Zimmerman's claim was that Martin slammed his head into the concrete 'repeatedly'. Are you trying to tell us that the picture offered as evidence in this thread represents repeated blows to concrete?Yes I am saying that. Are you saying it isn't? Are you stating that EVERY time a head hits an objct it will split and bleed?? Are you saying that this is NO proof of a strugle taking place? This photo is authenticated through time stamp and gps location to have been taken immediatly after the altercation and susequent shooting. Are you saying this is all faked?? Are you saying that this shows NO proof of a struggle?? REALLY?????

[tailfins]

Yes I am saying that. Are you saying it isn't? Are you stating that EVERY time a head hits an objct it will split and bleed?? Are you saying that this is NO proof of a strugle taking place? This photo is authenticated through time stamp and gps location to have been taken immediatly after the altercation and susequent shooting. Are you saying this is all faked?? Are you saying that this shows NO proof of a struggle?? REALLY?????

Any you don't have to say that. The burden of proof is a reasonable doubt. All the evidence has to establish is a reasonable doubt that he didn't act in self-defense.

[Nukeman]

Any you don't have to say that. The burden of proof is a reasonable doubt. All the evidence has to establish is a reasonable doubt that he didn't act in self-defense.
Are you saying that if someone lays hands on me and starts beating my head into the ground, that if I retaliate it may NOT be self defense?? What in YOUR mind constitutes the use of self defense?

[tailfins]

Are you saying that if someone lays hands on me and starts beating my head into the ground, that if I retaliate it may NOT be self defense?? What in YOUR mind constitutes the use of self defense?

I'm saying the exact opposite. I'm saying you don't have to PROVE it's self-defense. All you have to do is establish a reasonable doubt that it wasn't.

[Howard Roark]

Yes I am saying that. Are you saying it isn't? Are you stating that EVERY time a head hits an objct it will split and bleed?? Are you saying that this is NO proof of a strugle taking place? This photo is authenticated through time stamp and gps location to have been taken immediatly after the altercation and susequent shooting. Are you saying this is all faked?? Are you saying that this shows NO proof of a struggle?? REALLY?????

Of course there was a struggle. Zimmerman approached Martin, after being advised not to. I believe the qualifier for legal murder in Fla. is 'life threatening'. There is a chasm between 'struggle', and 'life threatening'.

That's what I'm saying. If you look at current pix of Zimmerman's head, the hair pattern isn't interrupted by any scar tissue.

[Howard Roark]

Any you don't have to say that. The burden of proof is a reasonable doubt. All the evidence has to establish is a reasonable doubt that he didn't act in self-defense.

IMO, even if it was self defense on Zimmerman's part, he can't kill someone unless it is considered "life threatening"....no?

[Howard Roark]

Are you saying that if someone lays hands on me and starts beating my head into the ground, that if I retaliate it may NOT be self defense?? What in YOUR mind constitutes the use of self defense?

The issue is a ridiculous law in Fla.. Normally, if someone approaches you with a weapon, and you disarm that person, you will be charged if you use that weapon against them.

You had the choice to throw the weapon away, but you chose to use it against the original attacker.

In this instance, can we determine at what point Zimmerman went from the aggressor, to the defender?

[tailfins]

IMO, even if it was self defense on Zimmerman's part, he can't kill someone unless it is considered "life threatening"....no?

Life threatening is too high of a bar. It's reasonable to kill someone that intends to make you live with a lifetime of brain injury. Would a supermodel be justified in killing someone who was about to slash her face?




In this instance, can we determine at what point Zimmerman went from the aggressor, to the defender?

If we cannot answer that question, we have reasonable doubt and Zimmerman must be acquitted.

[Nukeman]

Of course there was a struggle. Zimmerman approached Martin, after being advised not to. I believe the qualifier for legal murder in Fla. is 'life threatening'. There is a chasm between 'struggle', and 'life threatening'.

That's what I'm saying. If you look at current pix of Zimmerman's head, the hair pattern isn't interrupted by any scar tissue.
If you look at most head injuries unless they are a LONG scar you rarely see interuption of hair patterns!!

Here's the deal WE weren't there, all the folks vilifying Zimmerman weren't there, all any of us have is pure speculation, those of us who came down on the side of Zimmerman said "wait untill all the fact are in" but no the media all but crucified him and said how he was a racist and bigot.

We don't know he followed and confronted Martin, we know he lost sight of him and looked for him agaisnt the advice of a 911 operator.

WE can speculate all we want but until all the facts are presented thats what it is.

Now this pic was taken on a smart phone, at the scene of the incedent with a time stamp placed on it and the GPS location listed as well. Personaly thats a pretty elaborate hoax to perform immediatly after shooting someone. It would take a real trained individual to keep calm enough after that to remember to do all of that don't you think??

[Nukeman]

The issue is a ridiculous law in Fla.. Normally, if someone approaches you with a weapon, and you disarm that person, you will be charged if you use that weapon against them.

You had the choice to throw the weapon away, but you chose to use it against the original attacker.

In this instance, can we determine at what point Zimmerman went from the aggressor, to the defender?So YOU know for a fact that Zimmerman was the aggressor?? Or was he only following to keep an eye on Martin and when he lost sight of him Martin was the aggressor that attacked Zimmerman for following him?? Which was it since you seem to know!!!??

No law that allows you to defend your self and or your family is "stupid" what is stupid is thinking the police will be there to protect you every second of the day.....

[Howard Roark]

Life threatening is too high of a bar. It's reasonable to kill someone that intends to make you live with a lifetime of brain injury. Would a supermodel be justified in killing someone who was about to slash her face?

I was under the opinion that 'Stand Your Ground' was predicated on life threatening circumstances. At least, if you are going to kill someone, as opposed to wound them.




In any other place where a person “has a right to be,” that person has “no duty to retreat” if attacked and may “meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.”

[Howard Roark]

Life threatening is too high of a bar. It's reasonable to kill someone that intends to make you live with a lifetime of brain injury. Would a supermodel be justified in killing someone who was about to slash her face?



If we cannot answer that question, we have reasonable doubt and Zimmerman must be acquitted.

Yes, this trial is going to be interesting. It will depend upon Zimmerman's testimony, or at least his 'claims' if he doesn't testify.

The prosecution already has Zimmerman perjuring himself on the stand, so his 'claims' may very well be dismissed by a jury.

[jimnyc]

IMO, even if it was self defense on Zimmerman's part, he can't kill someone unless it is considered "life threatening"....no?

Not correct. It's if the person being assaulted has good reason to believe their life is in danger AND/OR whether or not they face grievous bodily harm. Zimmerman felt his life was in danger AND was in the midst of possibly the second criteria. It will be up to the state to PROVE that he didn't BELIEVE his life was in danger and that he wasn't in the midst of receiving grievous bodily harm. They'll need good luck to prove that, based on the evidence released thus far.

[jimnyc]

I was under the opinion that 'Stand Your Ground' was predicated on life threatening circumstances. At least, if you are going to kill someone, as opposed to wound them.

If someone stops what is perhaps a life threatening situation, it stands to reason that if they do, they will only be wounded as they have now stopped the rest.

[Howard Roark]

If you look at most head injuries unless they are a LONG scar you rarely see interuption of hair patterns!! Can you point out the gashes on Zimmerman's head, that would lead one to believe that his head was being pounded against the concrete? Scar tissue is void of live hair follicles. Zimmerman's hair is still extremely short. Any evidence of serious injury would be apparent. The picture from this thread shows some blood that trickled down the back of his head, with an odd pattern across the top, as if it were wiped straight across.


Here's the deal WE weren't there, all the folks vilifying Zimmerman weren't there, all any of us have is pure speculation, those of us who came down on the side of Zimmerman said "wait untill all the fact are in" but no the media all but crucified him and said how he was a racist and bigot.
And those who demand a trial, were not happy that this case was summarily dismissed, even though the lead detective called for manslaughter charges. At least there will now be a trial.

We don't know he followed and confronted Martin, we know he lost sight of him and looked for him agaisnt the advice of a 911 operator. We know he didn't stay in his car. If he had, nobody would've had their head bloodied, or had a bullet in their chest.


WE can speculate all we want but until all the facts are presented thats what it is. Yes...that works both ways.

Now this pic was taken on a smart phone, at the scene of the incedent with a time stamp placed on it and the GPS location listed as well. Personaly thats a pretty elaborate hoax to perform immediatly after shooting someone. It would take a real trained individual to keep calm enough after that to remember to do all of that don't you think??I saw no documentation for that pic offered in this thread. That pic shows a little blood on Zimmerman's head, with no visible wounds.

[jimnyc]

So YOU know for a fact that Zimmerman was the aggressor?? Or was he only following to keep an eye on Martin and when he lost sight of him Martin was the aggressor that attacked Zimmerman for following him?? Which was it since you seem to know!!!??

No law that allows you to defend your self and or your family is "stupid" what is stupid is thinking the police will be there to protect you every second of the day.....

That's where the dumb prosecution has basically already lost the case. They had one thing in their affidavit, but on the stand the lead investigator has already went on record stating he didn't know whether Z went back to Trayvon, or if Trayvon backtracked to Z. Without PROOF of what happened there, I'm of the belief the case is sunk before it even meets opening statements - and many legal experts agree.

[jimnyc]

I saw no documentation for that pic offered in this thread. That pic shows a little blood on Zimmerman's head, with no visible wounds.

There is CLEARLY an open cut on his head in this picture in addition to the blood.

[jimnyc]

I did this with MS Paint in like 10 seconds, but only a blind person can miss the gash I have circled, where the blood starts dripping...

http://i50.tinypic.com/2vnrk1v.jpg

[Howard Roark]

I did this with MS Paint in like 10 seconds, but only a blind person can miss the gash I have circled, where the blood starts dripping...

http://i50.tinypic.com/2vnrk1v.jpg

I didn't notice that gash until you highlighted it. Are you saying that it's consistent with repeated blows to the head? It looks like Martin could've pushed him down, and his head hit the concrete once.

Now, had he stayed in his car, he'd have no injuries.

[logroller]

This has been discussed as nauseum. I even participated in a debate that, unfortunately, ended prematurely for reasons I don't quite understand. However, if I might add one thing; little evidence is actually available. Perhaps more will be availed at trial, but I've seen much evidence presented in media and by posters that, with a little scrutiny, turns out to be exaggerated or outright fictional. I hate to turn this into a constant challenge of sources; that's all. So please, if you make claims upon someone saying something, please link to the original source.

[jimnyc]

I didn't notice that gash until you highlighted it. Are you saying that it's consistent with repeated blows to the head? It looks like Martin could've pushed him down, and his head hit the concrete once.

Now, had he stayed in his car, he'd have no injuries.

It's consistent with at least "A" blow to the head - AND, the blood above likely came from at least one more cut, but can't be seen in the photo. That's a minimum of 2 cuts. Not all blows will lead to blood escaping, there could be multiple bruising as well, which wouldn't show till much later. Bottom line is, the picture, which is right after the incident, is consistent with someone hitting their head. None of us can say much more than that at the moment, but it lends more credibility to Z's statement to the police - at least more so than those who claim he hunted Trayvon down and shot him for no reason.

[Nukeman]

I didn't notice that gash until you highlighted it. Are you saying that it's consistent with repeated blows to the head? It looks like Martin could've pushed him down, and his head hit the concrete once.

Now, had he stayed in his car, he'd have no injuries.so if Martin only pushed him down and ran away how is it that the powder burns from the shooting coincide with him being on top of him at very close range???

[logroller]

I didn't notice that gash until you highlighted it. Are you saying that it's consistent with repeated blows to the head? It looks like Martin could've pushed him down, and his head hit the concrete once.

Now, had he stayed in his car, he'd have no injuries.

Im not a medical professional, so I don't know. Such relatively minor wounds may not bely the violence which caused them. I can aassume Zimmerman was resisting the attack, so perhaps he managed to keep his head from striking the concrete each time he was struck from the front. I just don't know, but that is plausible.
And let's not get snarky on the 'he should have stayed in his car' line of accusation. It's no crime to get out of one's car; anymore than its a crime to walk I the store in the rain.

[Nukeman]

Yes, this trial is going to be interesting. It will depend upon Zimmerman's testimony, or at least his 'claims' if he doesn't testify.

The prosecution already has Zimmerman perjuring himself on the stand, so his 'claims' may very well be dismissed by a jury.
Which "stand" was that on that he prjured himself. Didn't realize you could perjure yourself outside of the actual trial!!!!

[tailfins]

Which "stand" was that on that he prjured himself. Didn't realize you could perjure yourself outside of the actual trial!!!!

You could technically be charged with perjury if you put the wrong weight on your driver's license. That being said, Alan Dershowitz thinks the prosecutor should be criminally charged for withholding that evidence.

[Howard Roark]

Which "stand" was that on that he prjured himself. Didn't realize you could perjure yourself outside of the actual trial!!!!

You weren't aware that Zimmerman has been in court already?

[Howard Roark]

Im not a medical professional, so I don't know. Such relatively minor wounds may not bely the violence which caused them. I can aassume Zimmerman was resisting the attack, so perhaps he managed to keep his head from striking the concrete each time he was struck from the front. I just don't know, but that is plausible.
And let's not get snarky on the 'he should have stayed in his car' line of accusation. It's no crime to get out of one's car; anymore than its a crime to walk I the store in the rain.

If you walk into a store in the rain, start an altercation with someone, and then shoot them, it should be illegal.

Evidently, not in Fla.

[logroller]

If you walk into a store in the rain, start an altercation with someone, and then shoot them, it should be illegal.

Evidently, not in Fla.

That's not the case though. Tray on didn't shoot Zimmerman.

[Howard Roark]

That's not the case though. Tray on didn't shoot Zimmerman.

Start with a silly scenario, and follow with blatant stupidity.

SOP?

[logroller]

Start with a silly scenario, and follow with blatant stupidity.

SOP?

No arguments those involved with this case, trayvon&zimmerman, behaved stupidly. But hyperbolic conjecture doesn't resolve the issue.

[Howard Roark]

No arguments those involved with this case, trayvon&zimmerman, behaved stupidly. But hyperbolic conjecture doesn't resolve the issue.

We know nothing about how Trayvon acted, because he was murdered. At least we'll get some insight from the witnesses at trial.
Some witnesses complained that the police either ignored them, or attempted to have them change their account of what they had seen.

For me, the only issue is that this was swept under the rug, and considered a done deal. Now, at least there will be a trial.

The odds favor Zimmerman, not because of the truth/law, but because it only takes one juror who is willing to let him walk.


However, if he does walk, I suspect he won't live very long. Karma is a funny thing.

[tailfins]

We know nothing about how Trayvon acted, because he was murdered. At least we'll get some insight from the witnesses at trial.
Some witnesses complained that the police either ignored them, or attempted to have them change their account of what they had seen.

For me, the only issue is that this was swept under the rug, and considered a done deal. Now, at least there will be a trial.

The odds favor Zimmerman, not because of the truth/law, but because it only takes one juror who is willing to let him walk.


However, if he does walk, I suspect he won't live very long. Karma is a funny thing.

You mean Sharpton incited terrorism is a funny thing.

[jimnyc]

If you walk into a store in the rain, start an altercation with someone, and then shoot them, it should be illegal.

Evidently, not in Fla.

How do you propose this to be proven? Even the lead investigator in the case stated he couldn't prove this.

[jimnyc]

We know nothing about how Trayvon acted, because he was murdered. At least we'll get some insight from the witnesses at trial.
Some witnesses complained that the police either ignored them, or attempted to have them change their account of what they had seen.

For me, the only issue is that this was swept under the rug, and considered a done deal. Now, at least there will be a trial.

The odds favor Zimmerman, not because of the truth/law, but because it only takes one juror who is willing to let him walk.


However, if he does walk, I suspect he won't live very long. Karma is a funny thing.


Ummm, no. Until such time that someone is convicted of such, "he was killed". Murder hasn't even been remotely proven and someone writes like this thinking it will make their point better, but it fails.

[logroller]

We know nothing about how Trayvon acted, because he was murdered. At least we'll get some insight from the witnesses at trial.
Some witnesses complained that the police either ignored them, or attempted to have them change their account of what they had seen.

For me, the only issue is that this was swept under the rug, and considered a done deal. Now, at least there will be a trial.

The odds favor Zimmerman, not because of the truth/law, but because it only takes one juror who is willing to let him walk.


However, if he does walk, I suspect he won't live very long. Karma is a funny thing.
Need I remind you that a central tenet to the American judicial system is one is innocent until proven guilty. In the first sentence of your response you state Trayvon was murdered; that's a crime yet to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. You do believe in reason and justice, don't you?

[Howard Roark]

Need I remind you that a central tenet to the American judicial system is one is innocent until proven guilty. In the first sentence of your response you state Trayvon was murdered; that's a crime yet to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. You do believe in reason and justice, don't you?

Martin was presumed innocent by Zimmerman?

[Howard Roark]

Ummm, no. Until such time that someone is convicted of such, "he was killed". Murder hasn't even been remotely proven and someone writes like this thinking it will make their point better, but it fails.

We all know that Zimmerman was looking for a little excitement that night, and he found it.

In all but the states with SYG laws, this was murder.

Might as well call it what it is.

[Howard Roark]

How do you propose this to be proven? Even the lead investigator in the case stated he couldn't prove this.

Unfortunately for Zimmerman, he documented the fact that he pursued Martin.

[Howard Roark]

You mean Sharpton incited terrorism is a funny thing.

I guess if it's in response to Zimmerman incited terrorism, it may seem funny to someone.

[jimnyc]

We all know that Zimmerman was looking for a little excitement that night, and he found it.

In all but the states with SYG laws, this was murder.

Might as well call it what it is.

We might as well call it what is proven, based on forensics and provable evidence. You sound ridiculous when you state he went looking for a little excitement, and nothing more to go on with that than your own bias.

And you're wrong on the other part too. EVERY state has self defense laws and nearly every one of them allows one being attacked, in fear for their life or fear of grievous bodily harm, has the right to defend ones self up to and including taking the other persons life. The SYG wouldn't even be necessary in this case. Zimmerman made his claim and it's up to the state to PROVE intent here and what happened & that it was not in fact self defense. Thus far they have struck out and came up with nothing more than a shitty arrest affidavit that the best attorneys in the country have been laughing at.

[jimnyc]

Unfortunately for Zimmerman, he documented the fact that he pursued Martin.

He simply documented that he was following Trayvon. The rest is based on testimony, facts that can be proven, forensics and eyewitnesses - which only ONE direct eyewitness saw the scuffle and places Trayvon on top of Z doing exactly what Z claimed to the police. Z's version has Trayvon double backing to him looking for a fight, and again, good luck proving otherwise - and the lead investigator has already stated on the record in court that he couldn't prove otherwise.

[Howard Roark]

He simply documented that he was following Trayvon. The rest is based on testimony, facts that can be proven, forensics and eyewitnesses - which only ONE direct eyewitness saw the scuffle and places Trayvon on top of Z doing exactly what Z claimed to the police. Z's version has Trayvon double backing to him looking for a fight, and again, good luck proving otherwise - and the lead investigator has already stated on the record in court that he couldn't prove otherwise.

I think it's important to discern legality, from reality. You are correct. Much of what we discuss cannot be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. Although, there will be more eyewitness testimony than we now know about.

That doesn't negate what has been documented thus far. There was no reason for Martin to be harrassed that night by an overzealous wannabe cop.

Martin's girlfriend is probably the best witness to attest to what Zimmerman may have said that night.

The odds are that he will walk. And the odds are that he won't live 1 year if he does...unless he flees the country.



Did Casey Anthony kill her daughter?

[jimnyc]

I think it's important to discern legality, from reality. You are correct. Much of what we discuss cannot be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. Although, there will be more eyewitness testimony than we now know about.

That doesn't negate what has been documented thus far. There was no reason for Martin to be harrassed that night by an overzealous wannabe cop.

Martin's girlfriend is probably the best witness to attest to what Zimmerman may have said that night.

The odds are that he will walk. And the odds are that he won't live 1 year if he does...unless he flees the country.



Did Casey Anthony kill her daughter?

Again, only ONE eyewitness. Being on the other end of the telephone, and being the girlfriend, doesn't equate to an eyewitness. She has testimony that is hearsay, nothing more. The ONE eyewitness is the only one who is scheduled thus far to testify, that actually saw anything. You claiming Trayvon was harassed is also funny, as no charge has even been made in that area. Whether as part of the watch, or as a resident, Z was 100% within his legal rights to follow Trayvon. If there was any sort of harassment, it's certainly nothing provable and all what your bias shows. Same as the lame wannabe cop comment. Your bias is skyrocketing through instead of sticking to the provable facts, forensics and evidence submitted thus far. Those tidbits won't mean a damn thing in court.

[Howard Roark]

Again, only ONE eyewitness. Being on the other end of the telephone, and being the girlfriend, doesn't equate to an eyewitness. She has testimony that is hearsay, nothing more. The ONE eyewitness is the only one who is scheduled thus far to testify, that actually saw anything. You claiming Trayvon was harassed is also funny, as no charge has even been made in that area. Whether as part of the watch, or as a resident, Z was 100% within his legal rights to follow Trayvon. If there was any sort of harassment, it's certainly nothing provable and all what your bias shows. Same as the lame wannabe cop comment. Your bias is skyrocketing through instead of sticking to the provable facts, forensics and evidence submitted thus far. Those tidbits won't mean a damn thing in court.

I understand. And that's the issue here.

We know what 'probably' happened. Admissable? No.

You have your bias, and I have mine.



We're done here, but I'm curious...do you think Anthony killed her daughter?


I think it's highly probable, but legally, she's innocent.


Doesn't mean that it didn't happen.

[jimnyc]

I understand. And that's the issue here.

We know what 'probably' happened. Admissable? No.

You have your bias, and I have mine.



We're done here, but I'm curious...do you think Anthony killed her daughter?


I think it's highly probable, but legally, she's innocent.


Doesn't mean that it didn't happen.

Howard, with respect, honest question - can you not post in paragraph/sentence form? Hitting enter so many times, after each sentence, makes your posts take up lots of space on the reply screen and I need to scroll up and down to go back and forth reading your post. You have 6 sentences in this post and taking up the space of 2-3 paragraphs!

I didn't follow the Casey Anthony case enough to make a valid opinion. I followed a bunch on the news and that's not enough for me to say guilty or not guilty, it wouldn't be fair. I know some people will render a verdict based on what their favorite websites tell them, but I prefer to get into the nitty gritty, and the facts, forensics and things that can be proven. I honestly didn't follow enough to make that call. BUT, if you wanted me "initial reaction" - she is guilty and got away with it.

[Howard Roark]

Howard, with respect, honest question - can you not post in paragraph/sentence form? Hitting enter so many times, after each sentence, makes your posts take up lots of space on the reply screen and I need to scroll up and down to go back and forth reading your post. You have 6 sentences in this post and taking up the space of 2-3 paragraphs!

I didn't follow the Casey Anthony case enough to make a valid opinion. I followed a bunch on the news and that's not enough for me to say guilty or not guilty, it wouldn't be fair. I know some people will render a verdict based on what their favorite websites tell them, but I prefer to get into the nitty gritty, and the facts, forensics and things that can be proven. I honestly didn't follow enough to make that call. BUT, if you wanted me "initial reaction" - she is guilty and got away with it.

Bad habit...I'll try to stay off the enter button as much. It does make it easier to read, though.
I didn't follow the Anthony trial at all, until the jury was in delib. That's when they did a review in the media. She did an amazing job of covering her tracks, and they couldn't convict.

Glaringly problematic for me, were her lies to her mother about the child's whereabouts for nearly 1 month.

In any event, it's very similar to the Martin case. NO...it may not be provable, but sometimes circumstantial evidence is overwhelming. Should someone be thrown in jail for it? Probably not, but his life is forever changed. Someone's gonna kill him.
And that would be fine by me.

[jimnyc]

Bad habit...I'll try to stay off the enter button as much. It does make it easier to read, though.
I didn't follow the Anthony trial at all, until the jury was in delib. That's when they did a review in the media. She did an amazing job of covering her tracks, and they couldn't convict.

Glaringly problematic for me, were her lies to her mother about the child's whereabouts for nearly 1 month.

In any event, it's very similar to the Martin case. NO...it may not be provable, but sometimes circumstantial evidence is overwhelming. Should someone be thrown in jail for it? Probably not, but his life is forever changed. Someone's gonna kill him.
And that would be fine by me.

Quite frankly, I don't even think there would be enough to convict Zimmerman based on circumstantial evidence alone.

Girlfriend conversation
following or harassing
carrying a gun
not on neighborhood watch
prior calls to 911
no proof that Trayvon instigated

I can't even think of anything circumstantial that would be enough at this point to overcome the self defense. Circumstantial evidence still needs a bit of a bite to it. The ONLY thing I can think of that goes against Zimmerman is Trayvon being dead. Whether circumstantial evidence or direct evidence, even eyewitnesses - they need to PROVE it wasn't self defense and that Z is perhaps lying. There is a big hill for them to climb. There very well may be evidence that will make that climb easier, but thus far nothing has been released to think that's the case.

And if it's circumstantial, and he's found not guilty - and someone murders him as a result of being found not guilty, that's not fine with me. Call it karma or what you will, but then I would hope the "vigilante" would be prosecuted for 1st degree murder and meet the chair, if enough evidence exists.

[Howard Roark]

Quite frankly, I don't even think there would be enough to convict Zimmerman based on circumstantial evidence alone.

Girlfriend conversation
following or harassing
carrying a gun
not on neighborhood watch
prior calls to 911
no proof that Trayvon instigated

I can't even think of anything circumstantial that would be enough at this point to overcome the self defense. Circumstantial evidence still needs a bit of a bite to it. The ONLY thing I can think of that goes against Zimmerman is Trayvon being dead. Whether circumstantial evidence or direct evidence, even eyewitnesses - they need to PROVE it wasn't self defense and that Z is perhaps lying. There is a big hill for them to climb. There very well may be evidence that will make that climb easier, but thus far nothing has been released to think that's the case.

And if it's circumstantial, and he's found not guilty - and someone murders him as a result of being found not guilty, that's not fine with me. Call it karma or what you will, but then I would hope the "vigilante" would be prosecuted for 1st degree murder and meet the chair, if enough evidence exists.

See, here's where I'm confused about the law. Does Zimmerman have to prove self defense? How can he do that? That's why I keep asking if his injury is consistent with 'mortal danger'? Is it just one man's perception of mortal danger?
And is there a difference between self defense that warrants shooting the guy in the kneecap, or killing him?
Regardless of the legality, if any random person can carry a weapon, and approach any random citizen for no reason, and ultimately kill him in self defense....then that's exactly what may happen to Zimmerman.
It's the law that's crazy.

[jimnyc]

See, here's where I'm confused about the law. Does Zimmerman have to prove self defense? How can he do that? That's why I keep asking if his injury is consistent with 'mortal danger'? Is it just one man's perception of mortal danger?
And is there a difference between self defense that warrants shooting the guy in the kneecap, or killing him?
Regardless of the legality, if any random person can carry a weapon, and approach any random citizen for no reason, and ultimately kill him in self defense....then that's exactly what may happen to Zimmerman.
It's the law that's crazy.

Nope, he need only make the claim and have the evidence and facts on his side. It is up to the State to prove he is guilty. And honestly, it's really no different than other cases. Even in cases where someone doesn't claim self defense, and might even be sorta caught red handed, the State would STILL need to go to court in some manner and prove guilt.

And it's not just Florida. In ANY state that has self defense laws, which I believe all do, a person resorting to "violence" has the right to claim self defense, and it's always up to the evidence and prosecutors to prove otherwise.

[Missileman]

Any you don't have to say that. The burden of proof is a reasonable doubt. All the evidence has to establish is a reasonable doubt that he didn't act in self-defense.

I think you have the burden of proof backwards and sideways. The state will have to prove BEYOND a reasonable doubt that it WASN'T self-defense.

[Nukeman]

Martin was presumed innocent by Zimmerman?I would say yes!! He followed him in the hope that the police would show up to question why a stranger was walking through his neighborhood at night in a hoody...


I guess if it's in response to Zimmerman incited terrorism, it may seem funny to someone.So Zimmerman DEFENDS himself and that is equated to "terrorism" in your eyes, and the killing of Zimmerman by a crazed nut is justifiable in your eyes... Pathetic just pathetic!!!!!

[Missileman]

We know nothing about how Trayvon acted, because he was murdered. At least we'll get some insight from the witnesses at trial.
Some witnesses complained that the police either ignored them, or attempted to have them change their account of what they had seen.

For me, the only issue is that this was swept under the rug, and considered a done deal. Now, at least there will be a trial.

The odds favor Zimmerman, not because of the truth/law, but because it only takes one juror who is willing to let him walk.


However, if he does walk, I suspect he won't live very long. Karma is a funny thing.

Trayvon was killed, but if it in fact was in self-defense, then he wasn't murdered.

Rush to judgement much? Already declaring Z guilty before the trial?

[Howard Roark]

Nope, he need only make the claim and have the evidence and facts on his side. It is up to the State to prove he is guilty. And honestly, it's really no different than other cases. Even in cases where someone doesn't claim self defense, and might even be sorta caught red handed, the State would STILL need to go to court in some manner and prove guilt.

And it's not just Florida. In ANY state that has self defense laws, which I believe all do, a person resorting to "violence" has the right to claim self defense, and it's always up to the evidence and prosecutors to prove otherwise.

Many states have self defense laws, but you only get the free shot if someone comes into your home. In NY, the police will tell you (off the record) that you can kill someone if you want, just make sure you drag them back into the house before you call the cops.
I seem to remember reading that SYG was just a huge expansion of this concept.

I know for a fact that there is a point where self defense is no longer self defense...at least in this state. If someone pulls a weapon on you, and you disarm him and use that weapon to kill him...you go to jail. You had the choice to toss the weapon, or use it. You chose to use it.

[tailfins]

I think you have the burden of proof backwards and sideways. The state will have to prove BEYOND a reasonable doubt that it WASN'T self-defense.

That's what I meant to say. I was speaking from Zimmerman's point of view.




I know for a fact that there is a point where self defense is no longer self defense...at least in this state. If someone pulls a weapon on you, and you disarm him and use that weapon to kill him...you go to jail. You had the choice to toss the weapon, or use it. You chose to use it.

That seems messed up. You can still be attacked after disarming the perpetrator.

[jimnyc]

Self defense is self defense no matter where you are. And no matter the charges, it's up to the State to prove the crime.

[fj1200]

The prosecution already has Zimmerman perjuring himself on the stand, so his 'claims' may very well be dismissed by a jury.


You weren't aware that Zimmerman has been in court already?

You haven't shown the perjury yet.


There was no reason for Martin to be harrassed that night by an overzealous wannabe cop.

No reason for a Neighborhood Watch Captain to report an individual looking in windows at night?

[logroller]

You haven't shown the perjury yet.



No reason for a Neighborhood Watch Captain to report an individual looking in windows at night?

Dontcha know FJ; facts and reason are like kryptonite to bleeding-heart talking points.

[jimnyc]

You haven't shown the perjury yet.

I'm betting that Howie thinks that since Zimmerman never told anyone that he raised $200k for his defense that it means he committed perjury. If that be the case, then Howie needs a better understanding of how the court system works and what perjury is.

[Kathianne]

Hmmm...

http://news.yahoo.com/abc-news-exclusive-zimmerman-medical-report-shows-broken-204911351--abc-news-topstories.html


ABC News Exclusive: Zimmerman Medical Report Shows Broken Nose, Lacerations After Trayvon Martin Shootinghttp://l2.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/tfXuOGOB82RMR5spD1eOQw--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Zmk9Zml0O2g9MjM-/http://l.yimg.com/os/590/2011/10/20/RR-logo_003910.png (http://abcnews.go.com/)<cite id="yui_3_4_0_25_1337125496742_318" class="byline vcard">By MATT GUTMAN and SENI TIENABESO | ABC News – <abbr id="yui_3_4_0_25_1337125496742_319" title="2012-05-15T20:49:11Z">2 hrs 53 mins ago</abbr></cite>

A medical report compiled by the family physician of accused Trayvon Martin murderer George Zimmerman and obtained exclusively by ABC News found that Zimmerman was diagnosed with a "closed fracture" of his nose, a pair of black eyes, two lacerations to the back of his head and a minor back injury the day after he fatally shot Martin during an alleged altercation.

Zimmerman faces a second degree murder charge for the Feb. 26 shooting that left the unarmed 17-year-old high school junior dead. Zimmerman has claimed self defense in what he described as a life and death struggle that Martin initiated by accosting him, punching him in the face, then repeatedly bashing his head into the pavement.

Also today, a trove of documents are being examined by lawyers for both the defense and prosecution as part of discovery in Zimmerman's trial -- including 67 CDs worth of documents, video of Martin on the night of the shooting, his autopsy report and videos of Zimmerman's questioning by police.



Zimmerman's three-page medical report is included in those documents that the defense could use as evidence. . .

[jimnyc]

I wonder if WS or Luv will admit that 'there is something there'. I don't know ALL the facts yet, but it's obvious that Zimmerman didn't just stalk and shoot this kid. The paramedics and police were on scene within a few minutes and the injuries were witnessed, and now we know the extent of those injuries.

[Wind Song]

Scalps bleed profusely. It doesn't have to be a serious injury for there to be a significant amount of blood.

[jimnyc]

Scalps bleed profusely. It doesn't have to be a serious injury for there to be a significant amount of blood.

He has had a fractured nose proven and 2 open wounds on his head. Something happened to him. My point being, contrary to statements you made previously, it certainly doesn't appear that he hunted Trayvon down and shot him for no reason. These injuries came from somewhere, and they were on him just mere minutes later when the police arrived.

[Kathianne]

I wonder if WS or Luv will admit that 'there is something there'. I don't know ALL the facts yet, but it's obvious that Zimmerman didn't just stalk and shoot this kid. The paramedics and police were on scene within a few minutes and the injuries were witnessed, and now we know the extent of those injuries.
Logic would never stand in either of their ways.

[Missileman]

Scalps bleed profusely. It doesn't have to be a serious injury for there to be a significant amount of blood.

Are you alleging that he would need skull fractures in order to have acted in self-defense?

[Abbey Marie]

He has had a fractured nose proven and 2 open wounds on his head. Something happened to him. My point being, contrary to statements you made previously, it certainly doesn't appear that he hunted Trayvon down and shot him for no reason. These injuries came from somewhere, and they were on him just mere minutes later when the police arrived.

Plus two black eyes.

[Kathianne]

Zimmerman had injuries. Guess who had bloodied knuckles?

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2012/05/autopsy-reveals-travon-martin-had-bloody-knuckles-when-he-died/


...WTFV (http://www.wftv.com/news/news/local/autopsy-results-show-trayvon-martin-had-injuries-h/nN6gs/) reported:

WFTV has confirmed that autopsy results show 17-year-old Trayvon Martin had injuries to his knuckles when he died.
The information could support George Zimmerman’s claim that Martin beat him up before Zimmerman shot and killed him.
The autopsy results come as Zimmerman’s attorney, Mark O’Mara continues to go over other evidence in the case.
O’Mara wouldn’t comment on the autopsy evidence, but WFTV legal analyst Bill Sheaffer said it’s better for the defense than it is for the prosecution.

WFTV has learned that the medical examiner found two injuries on Martin’s body: The fatal gunshot wound and broken skin on his knuckles.
Al Sharpton was unavailable for comment.

[fj1200]

Where did Howard go?

[Wind Song]

Where did Howard go?

Maybe he left with KS and for the same reasons.

[fj1200]

Maybe he left with KS and for the same reasons.

As I recall we still don't know what those reasons are.

[jimnyc]

Where did Howard go?


Maybe he left with KS and for the same reasons.


As I recall we still don't know what those reasons are.

As I recall, those reasons were because KS started trouble from his first post and didn't like it when he was treated in the same manner in return. Howard got along fine, but then again he was also reasonable and polite.