You Are Free To Travel—If The IRS Lets You

[revelarts]

http://www.rgbrenner.com/blog/2012/04/09/no-passport-if-you-owe-irs-50000/


A bill that nobody is paying any attention to is sailing through Congress: Senate Bill 1813. It passed the Senate by 74 to 22, and is expected to sail through the House as well. It’s an act “[t]o reauthorize Federal-aid highway and highway safety construction programs, and for other purposes.”

It’s the “and for other purposes” part of the title that has me worried—specifically Section 40304: “Revocation or denial of passport in case of certain unpaid taxes.”

This section would give the IRS the power to keep a U.S. citizen from traveling—

—and it’s another example of Executive Power run amok. It’s another example of how the United States is turning into a police-state (http://draft.blogger.com/%E2%80%9Chttp://gonzalolira.blogspot.com/2010/06/is-us-fascist-police-state.html%E2%80%9D).

The right to travel freely is sacrosanct—it’s not some privilege that the government bestows on us: It’s one of our basic freedoms as citizens. In point of fact, the countries that have limited their citizens’ ability to travel—the Soviet Union, the People’s Republic of China, North Korea, Cuba—were all rightfully called “police-states”: It’s one of their defining characteristics—the fact that they were keeping their citizens hostage.

In the United States, there are several, clearly defined reasons why you would have your passport either denied or revoked—and all of them pass the smell test.

In the case of a passport being denied, according to (http://travel.state.gov/passport/ppi/info/info_870.html) the U.S. State Department, the reasons are:

“a federal warrant of arrest, a federal or state criminal court order, a condition of parole or probation forbidding departure from the United States (or the jurisdiction of the court), or a request for extradition [by a foreign country].Additionally, failure to pay a court-ordered child-support in excess of $5,000 can also be grounds for the State Department to refuse to issue a passport to a U.S. citizen.

In the case of a passport being revoked, the law (22 CFR 51.72 (http://law.justia.com/cfr/title22/22-1.0.1.6.33.html#22:1.0.1.6.33.5.5.3)) says very clearly that:

A passport may be revoked or restricted or limited where:
(a) The national would not be entitled to issuance of a new passport under §51.70 or §51.71 [the above conditions]; or
(b) The passport has been obtained illegally, by fraud, or has been fraudulently altered, or has been fraudulently misused, or has been issued in error; or
(c) The Department of State is notified that a certificate of naturalization issued to the applicant for or bearer of the passport has been canceled by a federal court.
[54 FR 8532, Mar. 1, 1989, as amended at 64 FR 19714, Apr. 22, 1999]Now, notice how both in the case of a denial or a revocation of a passport, the State Department is essentially carrying out the judgment of the courts....

NOT an unaccountable bureaucracy.



Commentators on tax law are very surprised by this legislation. Over at the blog of R&G Brenner, a large and well-established New York tax preparation company, they wrote (http://www.rgbrenner.com/blog/2012/04/09/no-passport-if-you-owe-irs-50000/):

f the bill is passed you could have your passport revoked merely because you owe say $60,000 and the IRS has filed a notice of lien. Bear in mind that the IRS files tax liens routinely when you owe taxes–it’s just the IRS way of putting creditors on notice so the IRS will eventually get paid… In that sense, this you-can’t-travel idea seems pretty extreme. [[I]ellipsis in original]So even knowledgeable people are surprised by how extreme this legislation is—...
http://gonzalolira.blogspot.fr/2012/04/you-are-free-to-travelif-irs-lets-you.html
call write tweet to congress critters.

[fj1200]

Meh, pay your taxes.

[tailfins]

Passports can already be denied by failure to pay child support. This is just adding to the list. The passport denial battle is over and the list of reasons for denial will grow.

[jimnyc]

I'm not thrilled with "how" it's done and who's controlling it - but as fj alluded to, pay your taxes and this isn't an issue. Tax evasion is a crime and there are already a few crimes out there that they will revoke your passport privileges for. If you can afford to travel somewhere that requires a passport, then you have the money to pay the IRS, or at least a portion of your debt.

[revelarts]

Meh, pay your taxes.

spoken like a good slave ...sigh....

OK
What if you have paid your taxes but the IrS doesn't agree.
you've got to prove your innocents.

And how does that work for all these corps that have paid ZERO taxes. but earn Billions. and they'll hold some poor soul who been fined and penalized over $15,000 dollars debt.

The IRS doesn't have to prove JACK.

But i'm talking to folks who don't really understand freedom.
you guys think you owe the federal gov't something. if you don't pay you should be jailed.

whatever

[ConHog]

I have no problem with this; and would additionally like to point out that Rev's thread title isn't accurate. The IRS doesn't have shit to do with passports. Only the State Department can deny or revoke passports; and as others have pointed out they have been doing so based on criminal activity for years.

I will ALSO point out that one doesn't need a passport to LEAVE the country. So in fact, no one is being kept from leaving the country if they wish. That is just a flat lie in the article Rev quoted.

[fj1200]

spoken like a good slave ...sigh....

OK
What if you have paid your taxes but the IrS doesn't agree.
you've got to prove your innocents.

And how does that work for all these corps that have paid ZERO taxes. but earn Billions. and they'll hold some poor soul who been fined and penalized over $15,000 dollars debt.

The IRS doesn't have to prove JACK.

But i'm talking to folks who don't really understand freedom.
you guys think you owe the federal gov't something. if you don't pay you should be jailed.

whatever

Oh brother. :rolleyes: The IRS has processes for audits, appeals, etc. And if you want to throw in the inconsistencies of the tax code overall and problems with the IRS start another thread, stop with the kitchen sink argument. And on top of what CH said, you're also free to travel within the country at will.

And for what it's worth, and to get you started on your new thread, I would throw out the corporate tax code for every corporation.

[ConHog]

Oh brother. :rolleyes: The IRS has processes for audits, appeals, etc. And if you want to throw in the inconsistencies of the tax code overall and problems with the IRS start another thread, stop with the kitchen sink argument. And on top of what CH said, you're also free to travel within the country at will.

And for what it's worth, and to get you started on your new thread, I would throw out the corporate tax code for every corporation.

Yep, I'll start worrying when they install a taxalyzer on my vehicle. Sort of like a breathalyzer but instead it checks your tax returns and if you owe money your vehicle doesn't start. :laugh:

[revelarts]

Oh brother. :rolleyes: The IRS has processes for audits, appeals, etc. And if you want to throw in the inconsistencies of the tax code overall and problems with the IRS start another thread, stop with the kitchen sink argument. And on top of what CH said, you're also free to travel within the country at will.

And for what it's worth, and to get you started on your new thread, I would throw out the corporate tax code for every corporation.

How about throwing out the tax code on personal income tax. and Reworking the corporate taxes. That's the way it was before 1920 (date?) no personal federal income taxes.

personal freedom is what's in question here the Feds don't OWN us or our income FJ.

[ConHog]

How about throwing out the tax code on personal income tax. and Reworking the corparte tax the way it was before 1920 (date?) .

personal freedom is what's in question here the Feds don't OWN us or our income FJ.

So your real beef is that you have to pay taxes................. Then start a thread, I'm sure you'll get lots of support. :clap:

[fj1200]

How about throwing out the tax code on personal income tax. and Reworking the corporate taxes. That's the way it was before 1920 (date?) no personal federal income taxes.

That's just dumb. Corporations are nothing but pass through entities. Either tax income or tax consumption because those are the base of tax collection. Anything else is just economic interference.


personal freedom is what's in question here the Feds don't OWN us or our income FJ.

No, what's in question is getting upset about a symptom and not the disease.

[tailfins]

spoken like a good slave ...sigh....

OK
What if you have paid your taxes but the IrS doesn't agree.
you've got to prove your innocents.

And how does that work for all these corps that have paid ZERO taxes. but earn Billions. and they'll hold some poor soul who been fined and penalized over $15,000 dollars debt.

The IRS doesn't have to prove JACK.

But i'm talking to folks who don't really understand freedom.
you guys think you owe the federal gov't something. if you don't pay you should be jailed.

whatever

I agree with your principle. I don't agree with your notion that we still live in a free society. I'm all for rolling back the intrusive government. Let's just not fool ourselves that we are a free society with a government that respects the Constitution. We have to play the hand we are dealt.

[tstevens]

I was wondering what Thomas Jefferson would think about senate bill 1813 with the attached amendment giving new power to the IRS to revoke and suspend passports.
Thomas Jefferson Said
A free people [claim] their rights as derived from the laws of nature, and not as the gift of their chief magistrate.

A government afraid of its citizens is a Democracy. Citizens afraid of government is tyranny!

A little rebellion now and then is a good thing and as necessary in the political world as storms in the physical.

All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent.

Dissent is the highest form of patriotism.

Educate and inform the whole mass of the people...they are the only sure reliance for the preservation of our liberty.

Experience has shown, that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny.

Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have. The course of history shows us that as a government grows, liberty decreases.

Governments constantly choose between telling lies and fighting wars, with the end result always being the same. One will always lead to the other.

I am not a friend to a very energetic government. It is always oppressive.

I hope our wisdom will grow with our power, and teach us that the less we use our power the greater it will be.

I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it.

In matters of style, swim with the current; In matters of principle, stand like a rock.

My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government.

Most bad government has grown out of too much government.

Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty.

The price of freedom is eternal vigilance.

The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions that I wish it to be always kept alive. It will often be exercised when wrong, but better so than not to be exercised at all.

The purpose of government is to enable the people of a nation to live in safety and happiness. Government exists for the interests of the governed, not for the governors.

The policy of the American government is to leave their citizens free, neither restraining nor aiding them in their pursuits.

The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the Constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first.

The Democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not.

The will of the people is the only legitimate foundation of any government, and to protect its free expression should be our first object.

There is not in the British empire a man who more cordially loves a union with Great Britain than I do. But by the God that made me, I will cease to exist before I yield to a connection on such terms as the British Parliament propose.

Those who surrender freedom for security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.

To preserve our independence, we must not let our rulers load us with perpetual debt. We must make our election between economy and liberty, or profusion and servitude.

Upon the altar of God I pledge eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man.

We in America do not have government by the majority. We have government by the majority who participate.

We must not let our rulers load us with perpetual debt.

What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance?

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

One man with courage is a majority.

Never put off for tomorrow, what you can do today.
(yes,all the above are Thomas Jefferson quotes)

After reading his quotes it is easy to see that Thomas Jefferson one of the authors of the Declaration of Independence would have opposed the attached amendment in senate 1813 giving new power to the IRS to revoke and suspend passports. This bill 1813 has already passed the senate, it is very important that you contact your representatives to oppose senate bill 1813 and request that the amendment giving new power to the IRS to revoke and suspend passports removed. It is very easy to contact your representatives by email, here is the link. writerep.house.gov/writerep
Thomas Jefferson would not just complain, he would do everything possible to prevent bill 1813 and the attached amendment giving new power to the IRS to revoke and suspend passports from becoming law. He would do it because it is the right thing to do.

[ConHog]

I was wondering what Thomas Jefferson would think about senate bill 1813 with the attached amendment giving new power to the IRS to revoke and suspend passports.
Thomas Jefferson Said
A free people [claim] their rights as derived from the laws of nature, and not as the gift of their chief magistrate.

A government afraid of its citizens is a Democracy. Citizens afraid of government is tyranny!

A little rebellion now and then is a good thing and as necessary in the political world as storms in the physical.

All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent.

Dissent is the highest form of patriotism.

Educate and inform the whole mass of the people...they are the only sure reliance for the preservation of our liberty.

Experience has shown, that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny.

Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have. The course of history shows us that as a government grows, liberty decreases.

Governments constantly choose between telling lies and fighting wars, with the end result always being the same. One will always lead to the other.

I am not a friend to a very energetic government. It is always oppressive.

I hope our wisdom will grow with our power, and teach us that the less we use our power the greater it will be.

I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it.

In matters of style, swim with the current; In matters of principle, stand like a rock.

My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government.

Most bad government has grown out of too much government.

Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty.

The price of freedom is eternal vigilance.

The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions that I wish it to be always kept alive. It will often be exercised when wrong, but better so than not to be exercised at all.

The purpose of government is to enable the people of a nation to live in safety and happiness. Government exists for the interests of the governed, not for the governors.

The policy of the American government is to leave their citizens free, neither restraining nor aiding them in their pursuits.

The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the Constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first.

The Democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not.

The will of the people is the only legitimate foundation of any government, and to protect its free expression should be our first object.

There is not in the British empire a man who more cordially loves a union with Great Britain than I do. But by the God that made me, I will cease to exist before I yield to a connection on such terms as the British Parliament propose.

Those who surrender freedom for security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.

To preserve our independence, we must not let our rulers load us with perpetual debt. We must make our election between economy and liberty, or profusion and servitude.

Upon the altar of God I pledge eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man.

We in America do not have government by the majority. We have government by the majority who participate.

We must not let our rulers load us with perpetual debt.

What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance?

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

One man with courage is a majority.

Never put off for tomorrow, what you can do today.
(yes,all the above are Thomas Jefferson quotes)

After reading his quotes it is easy to see that Thomas Jefferson one of the authors of the Declaration of Independence would have opposed the attached amendment in senate 1813 giving new power to the IRS to revoke and suspend passports. This bill 1813 has already passed the senate, it is very important that you contact your representatives to oppose senate bill 1813 and request that the amendment giving new power to the IRS to revoke and suspend passports removed. It is very easy to contact your representatives by email, here is the link. writerep.house.gov/writerep
Thomas Jefferson would not just complain, he would do everything possible to prevent bill 1813 and the attached amendment giving new power to the IRS to revoke and suspend passports from becoming law. He would do it because it is the right thing to do.


You know NOTHING about Thomas Jefferson if you believe he would be okay with folks skipping the country to avoid their obligations, whether legal or financial.

[revelarts]

No, what's in question is getting upset about a symptom and not the disease.


people don't want to deal with the disease, it's to much of a sharp turn to abolish the irs or try a pure consumption tax, people have a hard time fathoming it. People like to talk about it but really WORK for it? , or vote for people like ...you know who... thats CRAZY. we've had the disease for so long, we can't live without the disease. can we?
but allowing the disease to spread and cripple you is just stupid don't you think?

[ConHog]

people don't want to deal with the disease, it's to much of a sharp turn to abolish the irs or try a pure consumption tax, people have a hard time fathoming it. People like to talk about it but really WORK for it? , or vote for people like ...you know who... thats CRAZY. we've had the disease for so long, we can't live without the disease. can we?
but allowing the disease to spread and cripple you is just stupid don't you think?

I could be wrong, but I believe I've read FJ state in the past that he is for changing from an income based tax to a consumption based tax. As am I.

[fj1200]

people don't want to deal with the disease, it's to much of a sharp turn to abolish the irs or try a pure consumption tax, people have a hard time fathoming it. People like to talk about it but really WORK for it? , or vote for people like ...you know who... thats CRAZY. we've had the disease for so long, we can't live without the disease. can we?
but allowing the disease to spread and cripple you is just stupid don't you think?

This isn't even a blip on the radar and is just distraction.


I could be wrong, but I believe I've read FJ state in the past that he is for changing from an income based tax to a consumption based tax. As am I.

Sure, I'd take the FairTax, I'd also take a flat tax as long as it's not one of the dumb versions. They could even make the current schema far more efficient and fair but I don't see that happening any time soon.