Discussion about Martin/Zimmerman debate

[Wind Song]

Looking forward to this.

[jimnyc]

WS - please respect what was posted in the opening post of the debate, in big bold red letters. Instead of deleting, I moved your reply here.

** Reminder - this is to remain just between these two. Nobody else should be replying in this thread. Any replies outside of these 2 will be deleted and the offender will be banned from this section of the board. **

[Wind Song]

I have no problem with traveling.

[jimnyc]

I have no problem with traveling.

It's reading that has me troubled. We want the debates to remain free from flaming and any posts from anyone other than the 2 participants.

[Wind Song]

It's reading that has me troubled. We want the debates to remain free from flaming and any posts from anyone other than the 2 participants.

I'm waiting to see the debate.

[jimnyc]

I'm waiting to see the debate.

It'll happen, but they aren't quick. The thread is only for them 2 to reply in, and there is technically no time limit, so it could be one more day and it could take a week to reach 5 posts apiece.

[Wind Song]

Good format. It makes sense to take some time to really debate and use facts. I'm looking forward to reading it.

[Missileman]

Good format. It makes sense to take some time to really debate and use facts. I'm looking forward to reading it.

Why? All I've ever seen you do is ignore facts.

[Wind Song]

Why? All I've ever seen you do is ignore facts.


What would make your general assertion stronger is to provide a specific example of a time when I ignored a fact. Use quotes.

[Missileman]

What would make your general assertion stronger is to provide a specific example of a time when I ignored a fact. Use quotes.

Go to the thread you started called "Black kid killed for being black". You can just about randomly pick any of your posts in that thread as an example...you ignored facts throughout the entire thread.

[Wind Song]

Go to the thread you started called "Black kid killed for being black". You can just about randomly pick any of your posts in that thread as an example...you ignored facts throughout the entire thread.


No, I started with a premise, and I still think it's correct. That Martin died b'c Zimmerman racially profiled him, initiated contact with him, starting a fight, and then killed him.

It's a point of view and there is evidence to back it.

[Missileman]

No, I started with a premise, and I still think it's correct. That Martin died b'c Zimmerman racially profiled him, initiated contact with him, starting a fight, and then killed him.

It's a point of view and there is evidence to back it.

Sorry, but your premise doesn't fit the FACTS that you're ignoring.

[Wind Song]

Sorry, but your premise doesn't fit the FACTS that you're ignoring.


I could say the same to you.

[Mr. P]

WS - please respect what was posted in the opening post of the debate, in big bold red letters. Instead of deleting, I moved your reply here.

** Reminder - this is to remain just between these two. Nobody else should be replying in this thread. Any replies outside of these 2 will be deleted and the offender will be banned from this section of the board. **




Looking forward to this.


Why? All I've ever seen you do is ignore facts.


What would make your general assertion stronger is to provide a specific example of a time when I ignored a fact. Use quotes.

Just sayin.

[Missileman]

I could say the same to you.

No you can't. I haven't posted a premise that is contrary to the facts. In fact, I've been a proponent of waiting until the facts are in rather than jump to unsubstantiated conclusions.

[Wind Song]

Just sayin.

If you're gonna say something, say it.

[Wind Song]

No you can't. I haven't posted a premise that is contrary to the facts. In fact, I've been a proponent of waiting until the facts are in rather than jump to unsubstantiated conclusions.

By all means, tell us what "facts" you have. FACT: Zimmerman KILLED an unarmed teen. FACT: the kid was on his way home from 7-11. FACT: the screams for help are NOT Zimmerman. FACT: Witnesses claim the screaming stopped with the sound of gunshot.

FACT: Zimmerman described as "suspicious" a young man who was black and wearing a "hoodie". FACT: Zimmerman said THESE ASSHOLES ALWAYS GET AWAY, just after he reported the race of his "suspicious" character.

FACT: Zimmerman said there was "something wrong with Martin and that he thought he was on drugs". FACT: Martin wasn't on drugs.

[Mr. P]

If you're gonna say something, say it.

OK. Either ya can't comprehend what you read or you ignore the facts. How's that, better?

[Dilloduck]

By all means, tell us what "facts" you have. FACT: Zimmerman KILLED an unarmed teen. FACT: the kid was on his way home from 7-11. FACT: the screams for help are NOT Zimmerman. FACT: Witnesses claim the screaming stopped with the sound of gunshot.

FACT: Zimmerman described as "suspicious" a young man who was black and wearing a "hoodie". FACT: Zimmerman said THESE ASSHOLES ALWAYS GET AWAY, just after he reported the race of his "suspicious" character.

FACT: Zimmerman said there was "something wrong with Martin and that he thought he was on drugs". FACT: Martin wasn't on drugs.

FACT: You only posted a partial list of facts

FACT: All facts need to be known to discover the truth

[Missileman]

By all means, tell us what "facts" you have. FACT: Zimmerman KILLED an unarmed teen. FACT: the kid was on his way home from 7-11. FACT: the screams for help are NOT Zimmerman. FACT: Witnesses claim the screaming stopped with the sound of gunshot.

FACT: Zimmerman described as "suspicious" a young man who was black and wearing a "hoodie". FACT: Zimmerman said THESE ASSHOLES ALWAYS GET AWAY, just after he reported the race of his "suspicious" character.

FACT: Zimmerman said there was "something wrong with Martin and that he thought he was on drugs". FACT: Martin wasn't on drugs.

Some of your facts aren't actually fact. According to the witness, it was Zimmerman screaming for help. Once Martin was down, there would be no need for Zimmerman to continue screaming, so the fact that the screaming stopped AFTER the shot proves nothing, especially doesn't prove that Martin was the one screaming for help.

Zimmerman didn't say anything about Martin being black until the 911 dispatcher asked him. The only thing that proves is that Zimmerman's not night blind.

[Thunderknuckles]

I find it interesting that in the discussion of FACTS, those who side against Zimmerman leave out the FACT that an eyewitness saw Martin beating Zimmerman which the police backed up with their statements that Zimmerman was bloodied on his face, head, and had grass stains on the back of his shirt which is wholly consistent with getting your ass kicked. WS is just one example. I was listening to Randi Rhodes this morning on the radio rant about the affair and she also neglected to mention this.

Now, I'm not going to take a side. That's the jury's job. But, if you're gonna talk about FACTS, at least have the intellectual honesty to put forth ALL OF THE FACTS you know and make your argument. It's not like this FACT can't be refuted. But, to neglect it smells of a discriminatory approach to the argument and we all know how evil discrimination is...

[DragonStryk72]

I could say the same to you.

What fact? You have not one fact that proves your assertion, but you literally ignore what people say to reiterate this point. Literally nothing else about this kid mattered to you except that he was black, it's the only thing you keep reasserting. No one's agreeing with Zimmerman's shooting an unarmed kid, but there is literally no evidence of Zimmerman being a racist.

We prove he used no racist language? He shot him cause he's black.

We prove that when he described the kid as black, it was because the 911 operator directly asked if he was black, white, Asian, or Hispanic? He shot him cause he's black.

What precise facts would have to come out before you will admit that it was not a racially motivated shooting? What is with this insane prejudice you have against Zimmerman, anyhow?

[DragonStryk72]

By all means, tell us what "facts" you have.

FACT: Zimmerman KILLED an unarmed teen.

Does not prove it was a racist killing.

FACT: the kid was on his way home from 7-11.

Does not prove it was a racist killing.

FACT: the screams for help are NOT Zimmerman.

Which facts support this? Because the facts we have say that an eyewitness actually saw Zimmerman, and heard him calling for help. Also does not prove it was a racist killing.

FACT: Witnesses claim the screaming stopped with the sound of gunshot.

Uh huh, one way or another, the fights over when one man is dead, and there's only one other person in the fight. Also does not prove it was a racist killing.

FACT: Zimmerman described as "suspicious" a young man who was black and wearing a "hoodie".

Okay, except for the FACT: Zimmerman was specifically asked for the race of Martin by the 911 operator, to which Zimmerman replied, "He looks black." This does not prove it was a racist killing. That's like calling me a racist because I describe Wesley Snipes as black.

FACT: Zimmerman said THESE ASSHOLES ALWAYS GET AWAY, just after he reported the race of his "suspicious" character.

Note the lack of the word Nigger, and as I posted and you ignored, hoodrats are a common issue in middle to upper class neighborhood, a sort of wannabe gang. Now, does this mean that Martin was one? No, because I have no facts to ascertain that, but it is a possible theory on why it looked suspicious, because why then didn't he call in every other black person that went to 7-11 that day, then track them down to start a fight? Again, not stating that Martin was doing anything wrong, because again, I don't have facts to ascertain that.

So, again, this does not prove it was a racist killing.

FACT: Zimmerman said there was "something wrong with Martin and that he thought he was on drugs". FACT: Martin wasn't on drugs.

So you mean a human being was wrong? Oh dear me, it cannot be, we are simply perfect at all times.[/sarcasm] He said he was acting weird, which could be entirely true. Maybe he was walking weird, like when you get done with a really strenuous workout, or he was just goofing since he was "alone", and maybe having a conversation with himself, which would look weird.It's still not enough to go on for what Zimmerman did.

But again, it does not prove it was a racist killing.

[DragonStryk72]

I find it interesting that in the discussion of FACTS, those who side against Zimmerman leave out the FACT that an eyewitness saw Martin beating Zimmerman which the police backed up with their statements that Zimmerman was bloodied on his face, head, and had grass stains on the back of his shirt which is wholly consistent with getting your ass kicked. WS is just one example. I was listening to Randi Rhodes this morning on the radio rant about the affair and she also neglected to mention this.

Now, I'm not going to take a side. That's the jury's job. But, if you're gonna talk about FACTS, at least have the intellectual honesty to put forth ALL OF THE FACTS you know and make your argument. It's not like this FACT can't be refuted. But, to neglect it smells of a discriminatory approach to the argument and we all know how evil discrimination is...

1. because a gun in a fist fight is a cheap coward's trick, so he doesn't get off on that one.

2. We still don't have any sort of witness to who actually started the fight in the first place, or what the state of the fight was at the time of the gunshot, since even the witness you named was not present for those two events.

[Wind Song]

Some of your facts aren't actually fact. According to the witness, it was Zimmerman screaming for help. Once Martin was down, there would be no need for Zimmerman to continue screaming, so the fact that the screaming stopped AFTER the shot proves nothing, especially doesn't prove that Martin was the one screaming for help.

Zimmerman didn't say anything about Martin being black until the 911 dispatcher asked him. The only thing that proves is that Zimmerman's not night blind.


Fact: Witnesses contradict each other. Fact: Experts prove the screams were NOT Zimmerman. Fact: LE advised Zimmerman that he did not need to follow Martin. Fact: Zimmerman followed Martin.

[Wind Song]

FACT: You only posted a partial list of facts

FACT: All facts need to be known to discover the truth

Fact: All facts aren't known, Martin isn't alive to tell his own version.

[jimnyc]

Fact: Witnesses contradict each other. Fact: Experts prove the screams were NOT Zimmerman. Fact: LE advised Zimmerman that he did not need to follow Martin. Fact: Zimmerman followed Martin.

There was only ONE direct eyewitness, and the evidence in the case all points to his version being true along with Zimmerman. "Experts" have stated the screaming had a 48% of being Zimmerman, but didn't rule out the possibility. I don't remember what they said about the possibility of the screaming being Trayvon, what did they say about that, WS? Zimmerman following or not following Martin doesn't mean anything no matter how you look at it.

You never want to discuss the gash on the back of Zimmerman's head, or his broken nose, nor the grass stains and wet on his backside from Trayvon likely being on top of him. Nor do you like to discuss the fact that one person actually watched Trayvon beating the crap out of Zimmerman while on top of him, totally backing up what Zimmerman has stated.

There is a lot to criticize Zimmerman for, but in Florida it would appear that all of his actions that evening were legal, whether you disagree with them or not. There's also a lot to criticize about Martin, but you never want to discuss that.

[Dilloduck]

Fact: All facts aren't known, Martin isn't alive to tell his own version.

Murdered people seldom get that opportunity but I'm sure if he were alive he could clear all this up for us. We would just believe whatever HE says. :laugh:

[Wind Song]

Murdered people seldom get that opportunity but I'm sure if he were alive he could clear all this up for us. We would just believe whatever HE says. :laugh:

I'm sure you would never believe an innocent high school student was murdered by a paranoid, racist nut. Zimmerman was previously fired from a security guard job for using too much force. (He picked a woman up and threw her). Zimmerman had other violent episodes prior to killing Trayvon Martin. Former co-workers describe Zimmerman as a "Jekyl and Hyde".

Zimmerman attacked a police officer, and he has a DV incident in his past.

[Wind Song]

There was only ONE direct eyewitness, and the evidence in the case all points to his version being true along with Zimmerman. "Experts" have stated the screaming had a 48% of being Zimmerman, but didn't rule out the possibility. I don't remember what they said about the possibility of the screaming being Trayvon, what did they say about that, WS? Zimmerman following or not following Martin doesn't mean anything no matter how you look at it.

You never want to discuss the gash on the back of Zimmerman's head, or his broken nose, nor the grass stains and wet on his backside from Trayvon likely being on top of him. Nor do you like to discuss the fact that one person actually watched Trayvon beating the crap out of Zimmerman while on top of him, totally backing up what Zimmerman has stated.

There is a lot to criticize Zimmerman for, but in Florida it would appear that all of his actions that evening were legal, whether you disagree with them or not. There's also a lot to criticize about Martin, but you never want to discuss that.

There are several witness accounts. I see you only believe the one that supports Zimmerman.

[Mr. P]

I'm sure you would never believe an innocent high school student was murdered by a paranoid, racist nut. Zimmerman was previously fired from a security guard job for using too much force. (He picked a woman up and threw her). Zimmerman had other violent episodes prior to killing Trayvon Martin. Former co-workers describe Zimmerman as a "Jekyl and Hyde".

Zimmerman attacked a police officer, and he has a DV incident in his past.

Do you routinely judge/convict on hearsay or a persons past without all the facts of the current situation? Pretty mindless, don't ya think?
Are you blonde by chance?

[Wind Song]

Do you routinely judge/convict on hearsay or a persons past without all the facts of the current situation? Pretty mindless, don't ya think?
Are you blonde by chance?

I've not convicted anyone on hearsay. I have the same information you have and a completely different view of who caused this death.

This law of Stand Your Ground is wrong and should be overturned. There is plenty of evidence that Zimmerman had problems with violence prior to killing Martin.

[Nukeman]

I've not convicted anyone on hearsay. I have the same information you have and a completely different view of who caused this death.

This law of Stand Your Ground is wrong and should be overturned. There is plenty of evidence that Zimmerman had problems with violence prior to killing Martin.I have to ask you WHY is the law at fault???? Please try and answer at least one guestion???? You honestly believe it should be illegal to defend yourself???? Are you really saying that???

[Mr. P]

I have to ask you WHY is the law at fault???? Please try and answer at least one guestion???? You honestly believe it should be illegal to defend yourself???? Are you really saying that???

What he said.

[Wind Song]

I have to ask you WHY is the law at fault???? Please try and answer at least one guestion???? You honestly believe it should be illegal to defend yourself???? Are you really saying that???


Yes. I think the Florida Law is wrong. It's wrong because it goes too far. Zimmerman went after Martin without cause. Martin wasn't threatening him. He was a 17 year old kid walking home from 7/11 and talking on his cell phone to his GF. Zimmerman should have done what Neighborhood Watch people are supposed to do. Make the call and get the hell out of the way.

Zimmerman was not in his own home, Martin was not committing any crime. Martin had the civil right to be on that street. A sensible outcome would have been to arrest Zimmerman and charge him with manslaughter. If Trayvon became scared and angry at being stalked and falsely accused, I can understand that. Zimmerman is lying, IMO. According to the GF who was on the phone with Trayvon at the time, she could hear Zimmerman approach him, heard his voice reported that the headset get knocked off Martin's head and disconnected.

No one with a "jekyl and hyde" personality should carry a concealed weapon. Zimmerman was fired from a security job for excess force. He was completely inappropriate in his actions as Neighborhood Watch. He should be charged with manslaughter.

[Dilloduck]

I'm sure you would never believe an innocent high school student was murdered by a paranoid, racist nut. Zimmerman was previously fired from a security guard job for using too much force. (He picked a woman up and threw her). Zimmerman had other violent episodes prior to killing Trayvon Martin. Former co-workers describe Zimmerman as a "Jekyl and Hyde".

Zimmerman attacked a police officer, and he has a DV incident in his past.


Are you channeling Trayvon right now ? What's his side of the story ?

[Wind Song]

Are you channeling Trayvon right now ? What's his side of the story ?

Hi Didlo,

I don't know his side of the story, but it's easily inferred from the facts. IMO, Trayvon Martin was killed for being a black kid taking a walk. How dare he!

[Dilloduck]

Hi Didlo,

I don't know his side of the story, but it's easily inferred from the facts.

Only by bleeding heart liberals

[Wind Song]

Only by bleeding heart liberals

Yes, I'm proud to be a bleeding heart liberal. It beats being a narrow minded red neck racist.

[Dilloduck]

Yes, I'm proud to be a bleeding heart liberal. It beats being a narrow minded red neck racist.

I'm proud of you too WS. Carry your banner high.

[Wind Song]

I'm proud of you too WS. Carry your banner high.


You bet I will.:salute:


Given the facts we know it appears that the only one who had a right to stand his ground and use deadly force was Trayvon Martin himself. George Zimmerman had no right to use any force at all let alone deadly force against Trayvon Martin.

“Stand your ground means stand your ground. It doesn’t mean chase after somebody who’s turned their back.”

Zimmerman chased Travon. Zimmerman was arguably the illegal aggressor and it was only Trayvon who had the right to self-defend.

Trayvon had to be “in the process of unlawfully and forcefully entering, or had unlawfully and forcibly entered, a dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle, or he had removed or was attempting to remove another against that person’s will from the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle.

Zimmerman had to know or have reason to believe that an “unlawful and forcible entry” or “unlawful and forcible act was occurring or had occurred.” Absolutely no evidence of that here either. In Zimmerman’s own words Trayvon was just walking around and ‘looked suspicious.”

Trayvon had no duty to retreat if he had a right to be where he was; but it was wise for a skinny kid to back away from a 240 lb gorilla advancing on him in the night.

Zimmerman became the aggressor packing a semi-automatic weapon and chased down a skinny defenseless kid. To suggest that Trayvon Martin was wrong to fight back is so disgusting as to make sane people vomit.

Zimmerman created the very danger he complained of, he was not just standing his ground, he willfully used his vigilantly watchdog status as a bald pretext to pack a concealed gun and go out to perpetuate a racially motivated hate crime against a defenseless child armed only with a pack of Skittles and a bottle of iced tea. ("those assholes always get away). Zimmerman was determined that Martin would not get away.

There seems to be probable cause to believe Zimmerman committed a crime, that he is a grave danger to the community, and that he should be arrested and held without bail until such time he faces a jury of his peers.

The owners of the complex may be held liable for gross negligence by allowing untrained but deadly armed vigilantes to patrol the premises. They may all be held civilly liable to the Martin family.

[DragonStryk72]

I'm sure you would never believe an innocent high school student was murdered by a paranoid, racist nut. Zimmerman was previously fired from a security guard job for using too much force. (He picked a woman up and threw her). Zimmerman had other violent episodes prior to killing Trayvon Martin. Former co-workers describe Zimmerman as a "Jekyl and Hyde".

Zimmerman attacked a police officer, and he has a DV incident in his past.

Paranoid? Yes. Racist? No. you have no proof of the second, and you literally ignored my earlier post to yet again re-assert the same disproved point.

[DragonStryk72]

You bet I will.:salute:


Given the facts we know it appears that the only one who had a right to stand his ground and use deadly force was Trayvon Martin himself. George Zimmerman had no right to use any force at all let alone deadly force against Trayvon Martin.

No one on here is arguing this. Stop trying to make it seem like they are.

“Stand your ground means stand your ground. It doesn’t mean chase after somebody who’s turned their back.”


No one on here is arguing this. Stop trying to make it seem like they are.

Zimmerman chased Travon. Zimmerman was arguably the illegal aggressor and it was only Trayvon who had the right to self-defend.

No one on here is arguing this. Stop trying to make it seem like they are.

Trayvon had to be “in the process of unlawfully and forcefully entering, or had unlawfully and forcibly entered, a dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle, or he had removed or was attempting to remove another against that person’s will from the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle.

Zimmerman had to know or have reason to believe that an “unlawful and forcible entry” or “unlawful and forcible act was occurring or had occurred.” Absolutely no evidence of that here either. In Zimmerman’s own words Trayvon was just walking around and ‘looked suspicious.”

No one on here is arguing this. Stop trying to make it seem like they are.


Trayvon had no duty to retreat if he had a right to be where he was; but it was wise for a skinny kid to back away from a 240 lb gorilla advancing on him in the night.

A 5'7 gorilla? Versus Martin's 6'-6'2" height?

Zimmerman became the aggressor packing a semi-automatic weapon and chased down a skinny defenseless kid. To suggest that Trayvon Martin was wrong to fight back is so disgusting as to make sane people vomit.

Except that Zimmerman didn't pull the gun until after he started losing the fight. Still makes him a coward for pulling a gun in a fist fight, but still does not reflect this sentence of yours.

Zimmerman created the very danger he complained of, he was not just standing his ground, he willfully used his vigilantly watchdog status as a bald pretext to pack a concealed gun and go out to perpetrate a racially motivated hate crime against a defenseless child armed only with a pack of Skittles and a bottle of iced tea. ("those assholes always get away). Zimmerman was determined that Martin would not get away.

He most likely would have had the concealed carry permit before the neighborhood watch bit, but again, no one is arguing that Zimmerman wasn't an aggressor. However, there is absolutely no evidence of racism, none. No, calling someone a punk or an asshole is not racist.

There seems to be probable cause to believe Zimmerman committed a crime, that he is a grave danger to the community, and that he should be arrested and held without bail until such time he faces a jury of his peers.

The owners of the complex may be held liable for gross negligence by allowing untrained but deadly armed vigilantes to patrol the premises. They may all be held civilly liable to the Martin family.

For what? The owners of the complex have no control over Zimmerman's concealed carry permit, not that he knowingly ignored the 911 operator.

However, No one is arguing that Zimmerman was right to shoot Martin, not one person. They are, however, arguing that Zimmerman was not clearly a racist, which he wasn't.

The only point anyone is arguing is your continued assertion without evidence of his racism. So go ahead and set down all the other crap, and deal with the argument that people are actually making. You could start by responding to this and my previous post on the matter. that or back down, admit you were wrong, and let it go.

[Kathianne]

If there's a lesson to be learned here, murder cases-voluntary or not, shouldn't be argued in the media or other venues other than the courts.

That's not going to stop us or anyone else on boards, media, etc. We'd all be better off if it did, but never mind that.

So, MY PERSONAL ENLIGHTENMENT: I was wrong to thing Zimmerman a racist and the kid only a victim.

Truth is, I may have been right. I may have been wrong. At this point in time, my tendency would be to say that Zimmerman should not have been as aggressive as he was. The kid wasn't as innocent as portrayed, or likely to have been acting. Yes, I know these conclusions are based on media reports, but that is where we are at. Including NOW the facts of what the dispatcher said and responses, along with the GF's accounting.

Truth is I think Zimmerman would have done better to call 911 and have bowed out. With that said, he didn't. He kept on this kid including the GF phone conversation. From all I've read, it then became Trayvon that chose a confrontation with the one pursing him. Big mistake on both their parts. While Trayvon had youth and strength on his side, Zimmerman had the gun. When T went for it, was over. What transpired between the decision of T to blindside, knock down, pummel we'll never know. Even if arrested, tried and convicted, the truth will no be complete to anyone's satisfaction.

[jimnyc]

Why? All I've ever seen you do is ignore facts.


What would make your general assertion stronger is to provide a specific example of a time when I ignored a fact. Use quotes.


There was only ONE direct eyewitness, and the evidence in the case all points to his version being true along with Zimmerman. "Experts" have stated the screaming had a 48% of being Zimmerman, but didn't rule out the possibility. I don't remember what they said about the possibility of the screaming being Trayvon, what did they say about that, WS? Zimmerman following or not following Martin doesn't mean anything no matter how you look at it.

You never want to discuss the gash on the back of Zimmerman's head, or his broken nose, nor the grass stains and wet on his backside from Trayvon likely being on top of him. Nor do you like to discuss the fact that one person actually watched Trayvon beating the crap out of Zimmerman while on top of him, totally backing up what Zimmerman has stated.

There is a lot to criticize Zimmerman for, but in Florida it would appear that all of his actions that evening were legal, whether you disagree with them or not. There's also a lot to criticize about Martin, but you never want to discuss that.


There are several witness accounts. I see you only believe the one that supports Zimmerman.

There's an example right from the very thread where you deny ignoring facts. I took the time to politely point out various things that you conveniently ignore, and you conveniently ignore them - and you do so because they blow HUGE holes in your defense of Martin.

[Wind Song]

For what? The owners of the complex have no control over Zimmerman's concealed carry permit, not that he knowingly ignored the 911 operator.

However, No one is arguing that Zimmerman was right to shoot Martin, not one person. They are, however, arguing that Zimmerman was not clearly a racist, which he wasn't.

The only point anyone is arguing is your continued assertion without evidence of his racism. So go ahead and set down all the other crap, and deal with the argument that people are actually making. You could start by responding to this and my previous post on the matter. that or back down, admit you were wrong, and let it go.


That's not the only salient point. Zimmerman profiled Trayvon as "suspicious" on very little evidence. Black families understand the special danger their children are in due to racial profiling.

[jimnyc]

That's not the only salient point. Zimmerman profiled Trayvon as "suspicious" on very little evidence. Black families understand the special danger their children are in due to racial profiling.

Anyone in a gated community that doesn't live there could easily be labeled as suspicious. There's nothing wrong with that at all.

[DragonStryk72]

That's not the only salient point. Zimmerman profiled Trayvon as "suspicious" on very little evidence. Black families understand the special danger their children are in due to racial profiling.

That does not mean he was racist. Paranoid? Sure, but then I've granted that every time. Did he racially profile the kid? Where is your evidence of this, because literally at no point, despite being pissed enough to swear at the 911 operator does he use any race-specific language, only using the words "asshole" and "punk", which are racially neutral terms.

He saw a kid in hoodie, that's what he described to the 911 operator. He never even mentioned race until the operator asked for a specific race on the kid he was suspicious of, and didn't mention it after that point.

[Wind Song]

Anyone in a gated community that doesn't live there could easily be labeled as suspicious. There's nothing wrong with that at all.

He wouldn't have reported a white guy as "suspicious".

[Wind Song]

That does not mean he was racist. Paranoid? Sure, but then I've granted that every time. Did he racially profile the kid? Where is your evidence of this, because literally at no point, despite being pissed enough to swear at the 911 operator does he use any race-specific language, only using the words "asshole" and "punk", which are racially neutral terms.

He saw a kid in hoodie, that's what he described to the 911 operator. He never even mentioned race until the operator asked for a specific race on the kid he was suspicious of, and didn't mention it after that point.

Black kid in hoodie=suspicious to Zimmerman.

[jimnyc]

He wouldn't have reported a white guy as "suspicious".

No? Then PLEASE tell me the races of the 46 people he previously reported as suspicious... Can you please tell us that answer, WS?

[jimnyc]

Black kid in hoodie=suspicious to Zimmerman.

And from TYrayvon's point of view:

Hispanic man following him = must attack and beat him like an animal

[Wind Song]

No? Then PLEASE tell me the races of the 46 people he previously reported as suspicious... Can you please tell us that answer, WS?

I don't know where you're pulling this number from. Out of your hat? Zimmerman called 9-11 five other times as part of Neighborhood Watch and each suspicious person was black.

[Wind Song]

And from TYrayvon's point of view:

Hispanic man following him = must attack and beat him like an animal


Trayvon's view==weird man whose been following me, is now approaching. Trouble is coming, I have to fight for my life.

[jimnyc]

I don't know where you're pulling this number from. Out of your hat? Zimmerman called 9-11 five other times as part of Neighborhood Watch and each suspicious person was black.

Ummm, no. The police have released reports that Zimmerman called 911 a total of 46 times over an 8 year period that he was a part of the neighborhood watch. But all you care about is what you read elsewhere, that he called on 5 suspicious black me. And I'll guarantee you couldn't care less about the race of the others he has called on. You believe what you want and outright ignore all the other facts and evidence that has been continually tossed in your direction. You have ZERO interest in the truth and simply want the white man busted for "executing" the black man, facts be damned.

[jimnyc]

Trayvon's view==weird man whose been following me, is now approaching. Trouble is coming, I have to fight for my life.

Someone following you or approaching you - immediately means you need to fight for your life? LOL

[Wind Song]

Ummm, no. The police have released reports that Zimmerman called 911 a total of 46 times over an 8 year period that he was a part of the neighborhood watch. But all you care about is what you read elsewhere, that he called on 5 suspicious black me. And I'll guarantee you couldn't care less about the race of the others he has called on. You believe what you want and outright ignore all the other facts and evidence that has been continually tossed in your direction. You have ZERO interest in the truth and simply want the white man busted for "executing" the black man, facts be damned.

I've read different stories than you have. You NEVER see racism as existing anywhere. You have white privelege.

[Wind Song]

Someone following you or approaching you - immediately means you need to fight for your life? LOL

If I were being stalked by an armed man, and he was approaching me, you can bet I'd be scared for my life. Especially if he thought I was suspicious just because I was standing there using a cell phone.

[jimnyc]

I've read different stories than you have. You NEVER see racism as existing anywhere. You have white privelege.

No, I see FACTS and I don't ignore them, and I don't make assumptions based on emotions and facts that don't exist. You DO NOT read official reports and MSM news stories as they ALL contain the facts we've been pointing out to you. You must talk to Al Sharpton every morning to get your made up "facts".

[Wind Song]

And from TYrayvon's point of view:

Hispanic man following him = must attack and beat him like an animal

Man coming to pick a fight challenging his right as a citizen to stand in the street and use a cell phone=must fight for his life

[jimnyc]

If I were being stalked by an armed man, and he was approaching me, you can bet I'd be scared for my life. Especially if he thought I was suspicious just because I was standing there using a cell phone.

We're not talking about you. An emotional wreck and unstable person like you would be scared if a mosquito buzzed on by. We're talking about a large black man, being followed by a much smaller Hispanic man. He CHOSE to assault him. Now he's dead.

[jimnyc]

Man coming to pick a fight challenging his right as a citizen to stand in the street and use a cell phone=must fight for his life

And now he is dead = bad choice to pick a fight

[Wind Song]

No, I see FACTS and I don't ignore them, and I don't make assumptions based on emotions and facts that don't exist. You DO NOT read official reports and MSM news stories as they ALL contain the facts we've been pointing out to you. You must talk to Al Sharpton every morning to get your made up "facts".


I read tons of stories on this. I know what the facts are, and I know what can be inferred from the facts. I've read the official reports. I come to a view opposite yours, and you're such an arrogant man, you have to be right all the time.

Zimmerman should be charged and there should be a trial and all these facts, pro and con can come out. The PD handled this all wrong.

[Wind Song]

And now he is dead = bad choice to pick a fight

Zimmerman stalked Trayvon, followed him against LE advice, picked a fight with Martin and shot him to death. I hope that makes you happy. You've already said you'd like to shoot anyone wearing baggie pants.

[jimnyc]

Argue with your emotions, WS, I'm not wasting my time with someone who has no desire to look at ALL the facts. Your mind was made up the day you posted your story, blaming this all on racism, and NOT A SINGLE FACT has come out that shows anything about this story was based on race, not a single fact. You're an emotional nutbag who lives off of emotion. Very, very unstable.

[Wind Song]

We're not talking about you. An emotional wreck and unstable person like you would be scared if a mosquito buzzed on by. We're talking about a large black man, being followed by a much smaller Hispanic man. He CHOSE to assault him. Now he's dead.

That's completely untrue. I'm no emotional wreck or unstable. As usual, you use ad hominem because your debate points are weak. When a human or animal is terrified, they respond in one of three ways; fight, flight or freeze. Martin chose to fight. I think it's likely Zimmerman would have shot him if he ran.

[Wind Song]

Argue with your emotions, WS, I'm not wasting my time with someone who has no desire to look at ALL the facts. Your mind was made up the day you posted your story, blaming this all on racism, and NOT A SINGLE FACT has come out that shows anything about this story was based on race, not a single fact. You're an emotional nutbag who lives off of emotion. Very, very unstable.

Argue with ad hominems instead of facts. You're not proving to be a good debater. Yes, I lean toward the truth of racism affecting this boy's death. I have from the beginning and no amount of data that has come out changes my mind, so far.

Discrimination is always very difficult to prove. That doesn't mean it never happens or didn't happen in this case.

I going to stop posting with you now because you're getting ugly again.

[jimnyc]

Argue with ad hominems instead of facts. You're not proving to be a good debater. Yes, I lean toward the truth of racism affecting this boy's death. I have from the beginning and no amount of data that has come out changes my mind, so far.

Discrimination is always very difficult to prove. That doesn't mean it never happens or didn't happen in this case.

I going to stop posting with you now because you're getting ugly again.

And you and your friends, Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson, have yet to provide ANY evidence to support this racism theory.

And you refusing to address the facts that everyone brings up and showing you would rather abort threads, and telling others to find evidence only you can find, shows you're an emotional liberal once again making decisions on a whim, regardless of facts that prove your positions clearly wrong.

[Dilloduck]

Argue with ad hominems instead of facts. You're not proving to be a good debater. Yes, I lean toward the truth of racism affecting this boy's death. I have from the beginning and no amount of data that has come out changes my mind, so far.

Discrimination is always very difficult to prove. That doesn't mean it never happens or didn't happen in this case.

I going to stop posting with you now because you're getting ugly again.

Data consists of facts--that doesn't have a chance in hell of changing your emotional prejudice.

[Wind Song]

And you and your friends, Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson, have yet to provide ANY evidence to support this racism theory.

And you refusing to address the facts that everyone brings up and showing you would rather abort threads, and telling others to find evidence only you can find, shows you're an emotional liberal once again making decisions on a whim, regardless of facts that prove your positions clearly wrong.


I'm not doing anything different from any other poster here. I have a premise, and facts that support it.

The only difference between us is that you name call.

I concede that you have some facts that support your position. You and didlo are unwilling to concede that some facts support my POV.

[Wind Song]

And you and your friends, Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson, have yet to provide ANY evidence to support this racism theory.

And you refusing to address the facts that everyone brings up and showing you would rather abort threads, and telling others to find evidence only you can find, shows you're an emotional liberal once again making decisions on a whim, regardless of facts that prove your positions clearly wrong.


Al and Jess aren't my friends. They do know what it means to be black in the US, and racially profiled. You continuously name call. You don't accept my point of view, because you're an absolutist. You are unable to recognize racism, EVER.

If Zimmerman were truly the "altar boy" he was portrayed, he wouldn't have attacked and killed Trayvon Martin. He would have made the call, and let LE do their job. God commands us to act lovingly toward all races.

[jimnyc]

I'm not doing anything different from any other poster here. I have a premise, and facts that support it.

The only difference between us is that you name call.

I concede that you have some facts that support your position. You and didlo are unwilling to concede that some facts support my POV.

The facts do not support this being a racist killing. But by all means, tell us what these facts are... what facts specifically support your argument that this was a racist killing?

[jimnyc]

Al and Jess aren't my friends. They do know what it means to be black in the US, and racially profiled. You continuously name call. You don't accept my point of view, because you're an absolutist. You are unable to recognize racism, EVER.

I most certainly can recognize it. Being in NY, I see it every day. I also saw it from the moment you posted your thread with the title "black kid killed for being black".

[Wind Song]

The facts do not support this being a racist killing. But by all means, tell us what these facts are... what facts specifically support your argument that this was a racist killing?

If Tray had been white and Zimmerman black, Zimmerman would be in jail right now.

[jimnyc]

If Zimmerman were truly the "altar boy" he was portrayed,

Where is he portrayed as such? I haven't seen any of that. Hell, I've seen most people condemn the way he handled himself that evening, they just don't see proof of it being racism or proof of a crime, based on the facts and the law in the state.

[jimnyc]

If Tray had been white and Zimmerman black, Zimmerman would be in jail right now.

And if you had a brain and I had a lobotomy...

[Wind Song]

I most certainly can recognize it. Being in NY, I see it every day. I also saw it from the moment you posted your thread with the title "black kid killed for being black".

Oh, are you calling me a racist? On what basis? You don't know me, you don't know who my friends are or what my life is like. Racism played a role in Martin killing. There is no other behavior Zimmerman reported that sounds at all suspicious to me.

[jimnyc]

If Tray had been white and Zimmerman black, Zimmerman would be in jail right now.

If Trayvon didn't hide behind a tree and then attack Zimmerman when he was going back to his truck, Trayvon would still be alive.

[Wind Song]

And if you had a brain and I had a lobotomy...

And if you could stick to the topic and not make it continuously about personal attack you'd show some humanity and class.

[jimnyc]

Oh, are you calling me a racist? On what basis? You don't know me, you don't know who my friends are or what my life is like. Racism played a role in Martin killing. There is no other behavior Zimmerman reported that sounds at all suspicious to me.

One that immediately assumes another did something based on the color of their skin, and has no facts at all to back up that theory, is a racist.

[jimnyc]

And if you could stick to the topic and not make it continuously about personal attack you'd show some humanity and class.

I made a valid analogy based on your words in this thread.

[Wind Song]

If Trayvon didn't hide behind a tree and then attack Zimmerman when he was going back to his truck, Trayvon would still be alive.


Zimmerman is lying IMO. I base that on the GF's report of Zimmerman approaching Martin and initiating a scuffle that the GF could hear until the headset was knocked off Trayvon's head. Zimmerman has a jekyl and hyde personality and a hx of being fired for using excessive force on a security job.

I don't believe his report for one second.

[Wind Song]

I made a valid analogy based on your words in this thread.


Thank you for having ONE sentence free of ad hominem. Keep going on that and we will have an interesting discussion.

[Wind Song]

One that immediately assumes another did something based on the color of their skin, and has no facts at all to back up that theory, is a racist.

Fine. You want to name call. We stop talking.

[jimnyc]

Zimmerman is lying IMO. I base that on the GF's report of Zimmerman approaching Martin and initiating a scuffle that the GF could hear until the headset was knocked off Trayvon's head. Zimmerman has a jekyl and hyde personality and a hx of being fired for using excessive force on a security job.

I don't believe his report for one second.

It would be unwise for anyone to "fully" take the word of a witness that is family or related to the participants. The ONLY independent witness that literally saw things happening has made a statement it supports what Zimmerman stated. And then the injuries support both of their statements.

[Wind Song]

It would be unwise for anyone to "fully" take the word of a witness that is family or related to the participants. The ONLY independent witness that literally saw things happening has made a statement it supports what Zimmerman stated. And then the injuries support both of their statements.

So, you reject any evidence that contradicts your version of reality. You reject the GF testimony entirely. I am sure if Tray had lived you'd reject his version too. The lead investigator said the night of shooting that he did not believe Zimmerman's self-defense story and wanted him arrested and charged.

Zimmerman pushed some authority that he didn’t have. And [Martin] didn’t respond the way Zimmerman wanted him to and they got into a confrontation. Zimmerman gave orders he had no business giving and he provoked the fight. Zimmerman behaved like a cop wannabe rather than Neighborhood Watch.

Why was he armed?

Martin is in violation of the Neighborhood Watch manual, which states, “It should be emphasized to members that they do not possess police powers, and they shall not carry weapons or pursue vehicles.”

If Zimmerman had reported what he'd seen and gotten the hell out of the way, Martin would have gone home to bed and live the rest of his life.

[jimnyc]

So, you reject any evidence that contradicts your version of reality. You reject the GF testimony entirely. I am sure if Tray had lived you'd reject his version too.

Nope, I VERY CLEARLY wrote "fully". It's unwise to take the word of people that aren't impartial. So I give more weight to independent witnesses, like the man who saw Trayvon bashing his head into the ground. And the paramedics that saw Z's broken nose, bloodied head and wet shirt and back from Trayvon being on top - as Z and the independent witness have stated.

Sure, her testimony can be heard. But it will only speak for and up till the point that some sort of engagement between the 2. She simply cannot verify if Trayvon broke his nose and was bashing his head into the ground as Z pleaded for help. Luckily, we have that impartial witness to fill in that part!

[jimnyc]

So, you reject any evidence that contradicts your version of reality. You reject the GF testimony entirely. I am sure if Tray had lived you'd reject his version too. The lead investigator said the night of shooting that he did not believe Zimmerman's self-defense story and wanted him arrested and charged.

Zimmerman pushed some authority that he didn’t have. And [Martin] didn’t respond the way Zimmerman wanted him to and they got into a confrontation. Zimmerman gave orders he had no business giving and he provoked the fight. Zimmerman behaved like a cop wannabe rather than Neighborhood Watch.

Why was he armed?

Not a single thing you have posted shows anything unlawful by Zimmerman. He has a RIGHT to carry a gun. The ONLY thing unlawful that can be proven thus far is Trayvon assaulting him.

[Wind Song]

Nope, I VERY CLEARLY wrote "fully". It's unwise to take the word of people that aren't impartial. So I give more weight to independent witnesses, like the man who saw Trayvon bashing his head into the ground. And the paramedics that saw Z's broken nose, bloodied head and wet shirt and back from Trayvon being on top - as Z and the independent witness have stated.

Sure, her testimony can be heard. But it will only speak for and up till the point that some sort of engagement between the 2. She simply cannot verify if Trayvon broke his nose and was bashing his head into the ground as Z pleaded for help. Luckily, we have that impartial witness to fill in that part!


I don't dispute that Trayvon acted in self defense.

[Wind Song]

Not a single thing you have posted shows anything unlawful by Zimmerman. He has a RIGHT to carry a gun. The ONLY thing unlawful that can be proven thus far is Trayvon assaulting him.


The lead investigator wanted him arrested. Zimmerman is NOT supposed to carry a gun as a Neighborhood watch volunteer. You believe Zimmerman lies that Trayvon initiated the confrontation when the GF cell phone convo shows otherwise.

Zimmerman is a cold blooded killer. He will rot in hell for this.

[jimnyc]

I don't dispute that Trayvon acted in self defense.

You see, you won't stick with facts. You have ZERO evidence that he was even touched, let alone had to resort to self defense, but you continually refuse to address the facts that can be proven.

[jimnyc]

The lead investigator wanted him arrested. Zimmerman is NOT supposed to carry a gun as a Neighborhood watch volunteer. You believe Zimmerman lies that Trayvon initiated the confrontation when the GF cell phone convo shows otherwise.

Zimmerman is a cold blooded killer. He will rot in hell for this.

And yet he walks free - because THE FACTS disagree with the emotional nutbags out there. Racists SHOULD rot in hell for blaming and convicting a man without facts. :lol:

[Wind Song]

You see, you won't stick with facts. You have ZERO evidence that he was even touched, let alone had to resort to self defense, but you continually refuse to address the facts that can be proven.

You ignore the evidence I've provided. You believe Zimmerman's version. I don't.

[Wind Song]

And yet he walks free - because THE FACTS disagree with the emotional nutbags out there. Racists SHOULD rot in hell for blaming and convicting a man without facts. :lol:

The lead investigator wanted to charge Zimmerman with manslaughter.

Once again, you use name calling. Very immature response.

Your rage is getting the best of you. Calm down. Step away from the computer.

[jimnyc]

The lead investigator wanted to charge Zimmerman with manslaughter.

Please tell us WHY this lead investigator didn't follow through with any charges....

[jimnyc]

The lead investigator wanted to charge Zimmerman with manslaughter.

Once again, you use name calling. Very immature response.

Your rage is getting the best of you. Calm down. Step away from the computer.

Rage? LOL Just more proof that you're emotionally unstable. You think that if someone tells you how much of an idiot you really are, that perhaps the world is out to get you. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but nitwits leave me with my head shaking in bewilderment, but certainly not angry. Dumbass.

[SassyLady]

He wouldn't have reported a white guy as "suspicious".

Is this a fact or an example of opinion being used as a fact?

[SassyLady]

That's completely untrue. I'm no emotional wreck or unstable. As usual, you use ad hominem because your debate points are weak. When a human or animal is terrified, they respond in one of three ways; fight, flight or freeze. Martin chose to fight. I think it's likely Zimmerman would have shot him if he ran.


Why didnt Martin choose to call 911 instead of making decision to physically assault Zimmerman?

[Wind Song]

And yet he walks free - because THE FACTS disagree with the emotional nutbags out there. Racists SHOULD rot in hell for blaming and convicting a man without facts. :lol:


I see. You think I"m a racist and you want me to go to hell.

[Trigg]

If Tray had been white and Zimmerman black, Zimmerman would be in jail right now.


She can't even get the race of Zimmerman correct, how does anyone expect her to get anything else right??

I doubt she's read anything past the first news report.

I have yet to see where she's commented on the doctored 911 calls or the doctored police photos.

[Nukeman]

Trayvon's view==weird man whose been following me, is now approaching. Trouble is coming, I have to fight for my life.


Man coming to pick a fight challenging his right as a citizen to stand in the street and use a cell phone=must fight for his life


Yes. I think the Florida Law is wrong. It's wrong because it goes too far. Zimmerman went after Martin without cause. Martin wasn't threatening him. He was a 17 year old kid walking home from 7/11 and talking on his cell phone to his GF. Zimmerman should have done what Neighborhood Watch people are supposed to do. Make the call and get the hell out of the way.

Zimmerman was not in his own home, Martin was not committing any crime. Martin had the civil right to be on that street. A sensible outcome would have been to arrest Zimmerman and charge him with manslaughter. If Trayvon became scared and angry at being stalked and falsely accused, I can understand that. Zimmerman is lying, IMO. According to the GF who was on the phone with Trayvon at the time, she could hear Zimmerman approach him, heard his voice reported that the headset get knocked off Martin's head and disconnected.

No one with a "jekyl and hyde" personality should carry a concealed weapon. Zimmerman was fired from a security job for excess force. He was completely inappropriate in his actions as Neighborhood Watch. He should be charged with manslaughter.

Wow talk about contradicting ones self. YOU clearly state that Zimmerman has over stepped his right in the "stand your ground" law and than post repeatedly that Martin has the right to defend himself by fighting for his life.. Tell me WS why is Martin justified in "standing his ground" yet Zimmerman is a racist murderer for doing the same thing???

Do you feel only blacks have the right to defend themselves when approached by a Hispanic man. What ever you say Zimmerman is NOT white, if he is than our president is white as well and you can't have that both ways... So is Zimmerman white, and not allowed to stand his ground? Martin being black is allowed to "fight for his life" just because someone approached him to ask what he was doing in a gated community???

You really are being hypocritical here with giving double standards for the two involved with this situation!! Why is that.

Ohh by the way I believe it was Jesse Jackson that stated that
"There is nothing more painful to me at this stage in my life than to walk down the street and hear footsteps and start thinking about robbery. Then look around and see somebody white and feel relieved.... After all we have been through. Just to think we can't walk down our own streets, how humiliating".. Is that racist on his part or a statistical probability???

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Jesse_Jackson

[Mr. P]

Seen a bunch of em on the net over the years, but damn, THIS one is truly certifiable!

[DragonStryk72]

Black kid in hoodie=suspicious to Zimmerman.

So wait, you're saying that suspecting a black person of anything is now racism? How exactly is that racist? He could have just as easily been a white kid in a hoodie. you refuse to answer my point on this, and you have aboslutely no proof at all.

Zimmerman is not white, meaning that we have two minorities in this. So again, where is your your proof of racism. Not your baseless accusation of racism, your proof of racism?

[Wind Song]

She can't even get the race of Zimmerman correct, how does anyone expect her to get anything else right??

I doubt she's read anything past the first news report.

I have yet to see where she's commented on the doctored 911 calls or the doctored police photos.


Zimmerman is white and Peruvian.

[Wind Song]

So wait, you're saying that suspecting a black person of anything is now racism? How exactly is that racist? He could have just as easily been a white kid in a hoodie. you refuse to answer my point on this, and you have aboslutely no proof at all.

Zimmerman is not white, meaning that we have two minorities in this. So again, where is your your proof of racism. Not your baseless accusation of racism, your proof of racism?


Zimmerman is half white and is initially described in police reports as white. Zimmerman wouldn't hve considered a white kid suspicious.

[Missileman]

Zimmerman wouldn't hve considered a white kid suspicious.

How in hell would YOU know?

[Wind Song]

How in hell would YOU know?


How would YOU know it's NOT the case? That's my opinion.

[Missileman]

How would YOU know it's NOT the case? That's my opinion.

I haven't stated the case one way or the other. Again, I'm waiting for the facts to come in before making a judgement. You've done nothing but jump to conclusions since the story broke. You've refused to alter those conclusions, even when presented with evidence that contradicts them.

I'm still trying to decide if you're just pig-headed or too fucking stupid to understand the facts of the case...I suppose it's even possible that you're both.

[Dilloduck]

I haven't stated the case one way or the other. Again, I'm waiting for the facts to come in before making a judgement. You've done nothing but jump to conclusions since the story broke. You've refused to alter those conclusions, even when presented with evidence that contradicts them.

I'm still trying to decide if you're just pig-headed or too fucking stupid to understand the facts of the case...I suppose it's even possible that you're both.

She defends victims at any price. Reality is of no consequence.

[Wind Song]

I haven't stated the case one way or the other. Again, I'm waiting for the facts to come in before making a judgement. You've done nothing but jump to conclusions since the story broke. You've refused to alter those conclusions, even when presented with evidence that contradicts them.

I'm still trying to decide if you're just pig-headed or too fucking stupid to understand the facts of the case...I suppose it's even possible that you're both.

My life experience kicked in when I first heard the story. I've seen too much racism in my life.

[Wind Song]

She defends victims at any price. Reality is of no consequence.


I stand for the underdog. Teenage black children have just as much right to walk home unmolested from a convenience store as white teens. No one should have to fear for their life from an armed nutjob like Zimmerman.

[Dilloduck]

I stand for the underdog. Teenage black children have just as much right to walk home unmolested from a convenience store as white teens. No one should have to fear for their life from an armed nutjob like Zimmerman.

Standing for underdogs has poisoned your ability to be rational.

[gabosaurus]

There is one thing I think we should all remember:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-LuIaXP7QaGc/T23IfH6-8QI/AAAAAAAABOc/Rv9j7zTZ7hA/s1600/Jesus-Hoodie-8.jpg

[Dilloduck]

Thanks Gabs---Jesus and Trayvon were exactly alike. :lol:

[Wind Song]

Standing for underdogs has poisoned your ability to be rational.


I presented a series of facts with an inference. Perfectly logical and rational. You don't like my view. So what? What else is new?

The poison is in you.

[DragonStryk72]

Zimmerman wouldn't hve considered a white kid suspicious.



From what evidence?! Stop resaying it, and give me proof!

[SassyLady]

I guess you have no answers for my questions Wind Song?


http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Wind Song http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?p=536244#post536244)
He wouldn't have reported a white guy as "suspicious".



Is this a fact or an example of opinion being used as a fact?


http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Wind Song http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?p=536270#post536270)
That's completely untrue. I'm no emotional wreck or unstable. As usual, you use ad hominem because your debate points are weak. When a human or animal is terrified, they respond in one of three ways; fight, flight or freeze. Martin chose to fight. I think it's likely Zimmerman would have shot him if he ran.




Why didn't Martin choose to call 911 instead of making decision to physically assault Zimmerman?

[Nukeman]

Zimmerman is white and Peruvian.What do you consider Barak Obama?? is he white or black???? Use the same standards you are using for Zimmerman!!!??:poke:

[fj1200]

If I were being stalked by an armed man, and he was approaching me, you can bet I'd be scared for my life. Especially if he thought I was suspicious just because I was standing there using a cell phone.

Evidence that T knew that G was an "armed man"?


Man coming to pick a fight challenging his right as a citizen to stand in the street and use a cell phone=must fight for his life

Evidence that T knew that G was "coming to pick a fight"?

[fj1200]

Zimmerman stalked Trayvon, followed him against LE advice, picked a fight with Martin and shot him to death. I hope that makes you happy. You've already said you'd like to shoot anyone wearing baggie pants.

Evidence of G "stalking" T and "picking a fight" with T?


When a human or animal is terrified...

I think it's likely Zimmerman would have shot him if he ran.

Evidence that T was "terrified"?

Evidence of your conjecture?


... he wouldn't have attacked and killed Trayvon Martin.

Evidence that G "attacked" T?

[Wind Song]

What do you consider Barak Obama?? is he white or black???? Use the same standards you are using for Zimmerman!!!??:poke:

I consider Obama to be mixed racially.

[Wind Song]

Evidence of G "stalking" T and "picking a fight" with T?



Evidence that T was "terrified"?

Evidence of your conjecture?



Evidence that G "attacked" T?


Look, I'm not going to change my opinion or re-state the facts that support it. I've already done so many times. You guys believe Zimmerman's version, I don't. I'm not alone in my opinion.

[Nukeman]

I consider Obama to be mixed racially.yet you continue to cll zimmerman white!! Why is that? he has the same amount of "white" blood in him as the president. Why differntiate the president yet not Zimmerman??? doesn't fit with your white power thought process??

[fj1200]

Look, I'm not going to change my opinion or re-state the facts that support it. I've already done so many times. You guys believe Zimmerman's version, I don't. I'm not alone in my opinion.

You state opinion and conjecture as fact. You also cherry-pick certain facts as the only fact to be considered. It's dishonest.

[Wind Song]

yet you continue to cll zimmerman white!! Why is that? he has the same amount of "white" blood in him as the president. Why differntiate the president yet not Zimmerman??? doesn't fit with your white power thought process??


He's half and half, same as the president. He chooses to identify more with his mother's Peruvian than his white father. The President identifies more with his Kenyan father.

[Wind Song]

You state opinion and conjecture as fact. You also cherry-pick certain facts as the only fact to be considered. It's dishonest.

That's a misunderstanding on your part. I state my opinion strongly, and you read it as fact. You also ignore facts that don't agree with your conclusion in the Zimmerman/Martin matter. I don't name call you about it.

I have posted many times and when I think something is a fact, I say FACT.

[Nukeman]

He's half and half, same as the president. He chooses to identify more with his mother's Peruvian than his white father. The President identifies more with his Kenyan father.Yet you continue to say he is "white". You say he only went after Martin due to his not bien white, if Zimmerman is not white your agrument holds no water........

[jimnyc]

Yet you continue to say he is "white". You say he only went after Martin due to his not bien white, if Zimmerman is not white your agrument holds no water........

I've yet to see her offer any type of argument, nor answer to others who point out facts. She's got her mind set, and ignores everything other than what supports her warped opinion.

[Wind Song]

Yet you continue to say he is "white". You say he only went after Martin due to his not bien white, if Zimmerman is not white your agrument holds no water........

No, I have not said anything like that. I've said that I feel Zimmerman racially profiled Martin.

[DragonStryk72]

That's a misunderstanding on your part. I state my opinion strongly, and you read it as fact. You also ignore facts that don't agree with your conclusion in the Zimmerman/Martin matter. I don't name call you about it.

I have posted many times and when I think something is a fact, I say FACT.

Okay, I see. you don't understand the definition of the word fact, got it. See, a fact is a truthful piece of information backed up by actual proof.

Actually, this really just proves that what you say to us here is a lie. We didn't choose the word fact to represent our opinions, in fact, we're generally good about using IMO or IMHO when we do state our opinions. Stop lying, and you'll see a marked improvement in the way people respond to you. Yes, when you represent your opinion as a fact, that is a lie, period.


Look, I'm not going to change my opinion or re-state the facts that support it. I've already done so many times. You guys believe Zimmerman's version, I don't. I'm not alone in my opinion.

You didn't offer proof of your assertion that he's a racist. Stop lying.


No, I have not said anything like that. I've said that I feel Zimmerman racially profiled Martin.

Then stop claiming your personal opinion as FACT. Here is a fact for you: When the entire audience you are speaking to says you're saying something, it's not the audience that's at fault. You never said that, you stated it as a fact, not an opinion, a fact. And now you want to blame the entire board because we don't get that when you say fact, you mean opinion, the opposite of a fact.

[fj1200]

That's a misunderstanding on your part. I state my opinion strongly, and you read it as fact. You also ignore facts that don't agree with your conclusion in the Zimmerman/Martin matter. I don't name call you about it.

Nope, I read your posts where you clearly identify "FACT" but is nothing more than opinion and conjecture; Dragon pointed that out quite effectively in countering one of your "FACT" posts. I was specifically referring to you spelling out "FACT"; not much for me to read into there is there. I haven't ignored any facts I am however prone to ignoring "FACTS."

Oh, and please point out my offense of name calling.


I have posted many times and when I think something is a fact, I say FACT.

Incorrectly as stated.

[Dilloduck]

No, I have not said anything like that. I've said that I feel Zimmerman racially profiled Martin.

It there had been white or hispanic kids cruising the neighborhood at night in hoodies and Zimmerman did NOT report them you might have a case. As of now you are still in you role as savior of the underdog.

[Wind Song]

I don't mind being the champion of the underdog. This teenage boy was doing nothing wrong and had every right to walk home from the store without being shot to death.

[Wind Song]

Nope, I read your posts where you clearly identify "FACT" but is nothing more than opinion and conjecture; Dragon pointed that out quite effectively in countering one of your "FACT" posts. I was specifically referring to you spelling out "FACT"; not much for me to read into there is there. I haven't ignored any facts I am however prone to ignoring "FACTS."

Oh, and please point out my offense of name calling.



Incorrectly as stated.


That's not true. Fact: Trayon was doing nothing wrong but walking home in the rain and talking to his GF. Fact: Zimmmerman was fired from a security job for using excess force and his co-worker describe him as jekyl and hyde. Fact: Trayvon Martin was shot to death and he was unarmed.

This is NOT conjecture but fact.

[jimnyc]

I don't mind being the champion of the underdog. This teenage boy was doing nothing wrong and had every right to walk home from the store without being shot to death.

He also had the right to continue walking. He had the right to answer Zimmerman, if he was questioned, and then continue on. He had the right to call 911. He had all kinds of rights that wouldn't have ended in a shooting. I don't think breaking Zimmerman's nose and bashing his head into the ground was a "right" but it likely lead to his death. So he WAS doing something wrong prior to the shooting, and it was witnessed and reported to 911 just as it happened.

[jimnyc]

That's not true. Fact: Trayon was doing nothing wrong but walking home in the rain and talking to his GF. Fact: Zimmmerman was fired from a security job for using excess force and his co-worker describe him as jekyl and hyde. Fact: Trayvon Martin was shot to death and he was unarmed.

This is NOT conjecture but fact.

And again, you leave out the FACT that he broke another mans nose and repeatedly bashed his head into the ground. Those facts do make a bit of difference, to say the least.

[Wind Song]

And again, you leave out the FACT that he broke another mans nose and repeatedly bashed his head into the ground. Those facts do make a bit of difference, to say the least.

He is alleged to have broken Zimmerman's nose. No confirmation has come of that from medical records.

[Wind Song]

He also had the right to continue walking. He had the right to answer Zimmerman, if he was questioned, and then continue on. He had the right to call 911. He had all kinds of rights that wouldn't have ended in a shooting. I don't think breaking Zimmerman's nose and bashing his head into the ground was a "right" but it likely lead to his death. So he WAS doing something wrong prior to the shooting, and it was witnessed and reported to 911 just as it happened.

Fact is you blame the innocent victim for his own death. That is really screwed up.

Martin was doing nothing wrong. LE advised Zimmerman NOT to follow Martin. Zimmerman played cowboy and started a fight and when he couldn't hold his own in it, he shot Martin to death.

[jimnyc]

He is alleged to have broken Zimmerman's nose. No confirmation has come of that from medical records.

There are medical records, and Zimmerman's attorney has confirmed this, and it will be used in his defense if necessary. Additionally, paramedics on the scene confirmed as much. I couldn't imagine paramedics on the scene lying.

[Wind Song]

There are medical records, and Zimmerman's attorney has confirmed this, and it will be used in his defense if necessary. Additionally, paramedics on the scene confirmed as much. I couldn't imagine paramedics on the scene lying.

If there are medical records, then produce them. Zimmerman declined going direct to the hospital. Anyone with a REAL broken nose will tell you it hurts like hell.

[jimnyc]

Fact is you blame the innocent victim for his own death. That is really screwed up.

Martin was doing nothing wrong. LE advised Zimmerman NOT to follow Martin. Zimmerman played cowboy and started a fight and when he couldn't hold his own in it, he shot Martin to death.

Sorry, that's the way it is. If you assault someone to the point that they fear for their life, they can use a gun in self defense. While Martin may be the "ultimate victim" at the end of the day, it appears Zimmerman was the victim in the beginning of any struggle, and Martin paid the price for assaulting him.

[jimnyc]

If there are medical records, then produce them.

Read the police report and statements from paramedics. Zimmerman has no need to release his own medical records from the hospital he went to, unless he needs to do so in his own defense in court.

[Wind Song]

Sorry, that's the way it is. If you assault someone to the point that they fear for their life, they can use a gun in self defense. While Martin may be the "ultimate victim" at the end of the day, it appears Zimmerman was the victim in the beginning of any struggle, and Martin paid the price for assaulting him.


What you don't get, is that Zimmerman caused the whole confrontation by stalking/following Martin even AFTER LE told him not to. IMO, he caused the fight, Trayvon held his own and Zimmerman killed him for it. Trayvon Martin was not doing anything at all criminal at the time Zimmerman called 9/11. He was walking and talking to his GF and on his way home to watch basketball with his father and brother.

The police didn't even tell the family for three days what had happened to their son. That stinks.

[jimnyc]

What you don't get, is that Zimmerman caused the whole confrontation by stalking/following Martin even AFTER LE told him not to. IMO, he caused the fight, Trayvon held his own and Zimmerman killed him for it. Trayvon Martin was not doing anything at all criminal at the time Zimmerman called 9/11. He was walking and talking to his GF and on his way home to watch basketball with his father and brother.

The police didn't even tell the family for three days what had happened to their son. That stinks.

Law enforcement never told him not to follow, it was a 911 operator with zero authority. It was quite lawful of him to follow someone who is suspicious. The rest is just rhetoric and nothing to do with what took place.

[Wind Song]

Law enforcement never told him not to follow, it was a 911 operator with zero authority. It was quite lawful of him to follow someone who is suspicious. The rest is just rhetoric and nothing to do with what took place.


He was NOT behaving the way that Neighborhood Watch is supposed to behave. He made his call, he should have stayed in his vehicle and let the police handle. He didn't do that because he had a gun and wanted to use it. That's my opinion. You don't like it?

TFB

A young boy is dead b/c Zimmerman lost it.

Zimmerman was the aggressor. He continued to follow the boy he continued to follow Martin even after the police dispatcher told him it wasn't necessary. He engaged Martin, probably pushed him, (I base this on GF's account) and when Trayvon fought back and was getting the better of him he shot Martin to death. It was an execution. No trial for Martin, it was viglante justice.

[jimnyc]

He was NOT behaving the way that Neighborhood Watch is supposed to behave. He made his call, he should have stayed in his vehicle and let the police handle. He didn't do that because he had a gun and wanted to use it. That's my opinion. You don't like it?

TFB

A young boy is dead b/c Zimmerman lost it.

And yet NOTHING he did was unlawful, whether you like the way he behaved or not. The ONLY thing that evening that can be PROVEN as unlawful, was Martin assaulting him in front of a witness, as Zimmerman yelled for help. It's amazing that some of you think Trayvon's girlfriend speaking is like gospel, but don't believe the man who literally witnessed the events and was on the phone with 911 before the events even finished.

[Wind Song]

And yet NOTHING he did was unlawful, whether you like the way he behaved or not. The ONLY thing that evening that can be PROVEN as unlawful, was Martin assaulting him in front of a witness, as Zimmerman yelled for help. It's amazing that some of you think Trayvon's girlfriend speaking is like gospel, but don't believe the man who literally witnessed the events and was on the phone with 911 before the events even finished.

We'll see. I predict there will be a trial and the truth will come out. I don't know if the Martin family will see justice, but this is not over just because people like you want to blame the boy for his own execution. Zimmerman started the whole thing and he ended it the way he wanted to. His attitude: I am the police.

[jimnyc]

We'll see. I predict there will be a trial and the truth will come out. I don't know if the Martin family will see justice, but this is not over just because people like you want to blame the boy for his own execution.

No one ever said it was over. But based on the facts released to the public thus far, there will be no trial as no provable crime was committed. That's why the cop who didn't believe Zimmerman couldn't press the charges, because even his superiors and the DA said they could never prove anything in court based on the facts thus far.

And back to an "execution" I see. Well, then if Trayvon didn't try and murder Zimmerman for being a filthy spic as he said, then he would be alive today to eat his skittles, after he's done dealing the drugs he likes to bring to school and smoke with his friends.

[DragonStryk72]

Sorry, that's the way it is. If you assault someone to the point that they fear for their life, they can use a gun in self defense. While Martin may be the "ultimate victim" at the end of the day, it appears Zimmerman was the victim in the beginning of any struggle, and Martin paid the price for assaulting him.

Um, point of order here: You know I'm not backing up WS here, but we still don't know, and likely will never know, who actually started the fight. I Imagine if Martin were still alive, he would say that Zimmerman started it, just as Zimmerman says Martin started it. We also don't have what happened for the last 30 seconds or so of the fight, since the only eyewitness was running off to dial 911 (he was right to do so, not arguing that, but he wasn't present during that time). Just because Zimmerman was getting his ass kicked, doesn't mean he didn't start the fight. Just ask my brother, he was a pro at starting fights he would then lose.

30 seconds is a lot of time in a fight, look at how much a boxing match can shift in just 30 seconds, and that's a situation where you have softened gloves on, and locations that are off-limits. After the guy went inside, Zimmerman could have easily junk-punched Martin, rolled out, and shot him before Martin could come at him again. Not saying that's what happened, because again, we just don't have the facts on the beginning or end, but this isn't a clear cut case in any event.

[jimnyc]

Um, point of order here: You know I'm not backing up WS here, but we still don't know, and likely will never know, who actually started the fight. I Imagine if Martin were still alive, he would say that Zimmerman started it, just as Zimmerman says Martin started it. We also don't have what happened for the last 30 seconds or so of the fight, since the only eyewitness was running off to dial 911 (he was right to do so, not arguing that, but he wasn't present during that time). Just because Zimmerman was getting his ass kicked, doesn't mean he didn't start the fight. Just ask my brother, he was a pro at starting fights he would then lose.

30 seconds is a lot of time in a fight, look at how much a boxing match can shift in just 30 seconds, and that's a situation where you have softened gloves on, and locations that are off-limits. After the guy went inside, Zimmerman could have easily junk-punched Martin, rolled out, and shot him before Martin could come at him again. Not saying that's what happened, because again, we just don't have the facts on the beginning or end, but this isn't a clear cut case in any event.

I didn't mean to infer that either "started" the fight, as I agree, no one is witness to that outside the participants. I just meant that if Trayvon broke his nose, and was bashing the mans head into the ground (that part was witnessed), to the point that he made Zimmerman fear for his life, then according to Florida law Zimmerman was within the law when using his weapon. Whether others like Luv and WS might think this man is lying, his testimony as the sole witness to the struggle will carry a LOT of weight, and thus far it appears his witness statement to both 911 and investigators backs up what Zimmerman stated.

[DragonStryk72]

I didn't mean to infer that either "started" the fight, as I agree, no one is witness to that outside the participants. I just meant that if Trayvon broke his nose, and was bashing the mans head into the ground (that part was witnessed), to the point that he made Zimmerman fear for his life, then according to Florida law Zimmerman was within the law when using his weapon. Whether others like Luv and WS might think this man is lying, his testimony as the sole witness to the struggle will carry a LOT of weight, and thus far it appears his witness statement to both 911 and investigators backs up what Zimmerman stated.

Well, if you're gonna lie, make sure there's some truth in it. Zimmerman may also legitimately feel like Martin started the fight, while Martin can legitimately feel like Zimmerman started the fight. Both can be telling what they believe to be the truth, and still be wrong.

I do think, though, that this case was needed to put to bare the holes in the "stand your ground" law. Zimmerman was clearly stalking after Martin at night, which to be technical, could have constituted a threat to Martin, who was then in the legal right to kill Zimmerman, while Zimmerman was legally within his rights to kill Martin, despite clearly stalking after him with a gun he shouldn't have had on his person during his neighborhood watch patrol.

It's entirely possible that Zimmerman told Martin about the gun he carried, or put a hand on it, making Martin think he was gonna draw down on him. Zimmerman really could have done nothing to provoke it (I doubt it from the available evidence, but still), there's just too many unanswered questions.

[logroller]

No one ever said it was over. But based on the facts released to the public thus far, there will be no trial as no provable crime was committed. That's why the cop who didn't believe Zimmerman couldn't press the charges, because even his superiors and the DA said they could never prove anything in court based on the facts thus far.

And back to an "execution" I see. Well, then if Trayvon didn't try and murder Zimmerman for being a filthy spic as he said, then he would be alive today to eat his skittles, after he's done dealing the drugs he likes to bring to school and smoke with his friends.

Cops don't press charges; attorneys representing the People do. Once an arrest is made, in accordance with one's right to a speedy trial, the clock starts for bringing charges. If an arrest occurs, charges aren't brought forth and there is a viable claim to self-defense, then the arrest itself is unlawful, and the People are liable for any incurred damages which result(according to Florida law). If charges are brought forth, ignorant of a viable claim of self-defense then the People are liable for the costs incurred by the defendant in affirming his case of self-defense (again, according to Florida). That's why they didn't press charges from the onset-- risk aversion.
What's interesting about the law is that pending a self-defense claim, so long as it doesn't involve the defendant being engaged in unlawful activity, there is no consideration for there being a reasonable fear-- it's purely based on whether there is a forcible felony being committed.

[jimnyc]

Cops don't press charges; attorneys representing the People do. Once an arrest is made, in accordance with one's right to a speedy trial, the clock starts for bringing charges. If an arrest occurs, charges aren't brought forth and there is a viable claim to self-defense, then the arrest itself is unlawful, and the People are liable for any incurred damages which result(according to Florida law). If charges are brought forth, ignorant of a viable claim of self-defense then the People are liable for the costs incurred by the defendant in affirming his case of self-defense (again, according to Florida). That's why they didn't press charges from the onset-- risk aversion.
What's interesting about the law is that pending a self-defense claim, so long as it doesn't involve the defendant being engaged in unlawful activity, there is no consideration for there being a reasonable fear-- it's purely based on whether there is a forcible felony being committed.

To the first bold portion - agreed, my bad. I should have said "He didn't ARREST Zimmerman because his superiors and the DA didn't think there was sufficient evidence to win at trial based on the evidence thus far".

As to the second, a witness would apparently testify that he witnessed Zimmerman having his head bashed into the ground by Martin, and pleading for help. That, and the visible gash to the back of his head, treated by paramedics, could very easily be used to show that a felonious assault was taking or took place.

[Wind Song]

No one ever said it was over. But based on the facts released to the public thus far, there will be no trial as no provable crime was committed. That's why the cop who didn't believe Zimmerman couldn't press the charges, because even his superiors and the DA said they could never prove anything in court based on the facts thus far.

And back to an "execution" I see. Well, then if Trayvon didn't try and murder Zimmerman for being a filthy spic as he said, then he would be alive today to eat his skittles, after he's done dealing the drugs he likes to bring to school and smoke with his friends.


You disgust me. Blaming the kid for his own death.

[logroller]

Well, if you're gonna lie, make sure there's some truth in it. Zimmerman may also legitimately feel like Martin started the fight, while Martin can legitimately feel like Zimmerman started the fight. Both can be telling what they believe to be the truth, and still be wrong.

I do think, though, that this case was needed to put to bare the holes in the "stand your ground" law. Zimmerman was clearly stalking after Martin at night, which to be technical, could have constituted a threat to Martin, who was then in the legal right to kill Zimmerman, while Zimmerman was legally within his rights to kill Martin, despite clearly stalking after him with a gun he shouldn't have had on his person during his neighborhood watch patrol.

It's entirely possible that Zimmerman told Martin about the gun he carried, or put a hand on it, making Martin think he was gonna draw down on him. Zimmerman really could have done nothing to provoke it (I doubt it from the available evidence, but still), there's just too many unanswered questions.

Well technically, to be stalking it has to be repeated against the same person; thus, its only fair to say Zimmerman was following Martin. Zimmerman's actions would've had to have risen to the level of forcible felony before any claim of self-defense by Martin under stand-your-ground laws. I haven't seen any evidence that such an act was committed by Zimmerman. Common sense indicates it would foolish for him to call police if he were engaging in an unlawful activity. Rather, what makes far more sense is that Martin was aggravated by being followed, and in response he assaulted Zimmerman. Being followed is a mitigating circumstance for sure, but it doesn't constitute unlawful activity, let alone a forcible felony.


I haven't seen any evidence that he was actually on his Neighborhood Watch (NW) patrol; rather, I heard he was going to the store. I'm not saying its not possible; but he didn't identify himself as such in the 911 tape. Not to mention, its not as though NW officers get some specialized training; just a sign for their window.

Furthermore, (and not to say DS72 is saying this) I don't think its reasonable to assume that being suspicious of a someone in your neighborhood is an exclusive concern of on-duty Neighborhood Watch volunteers. That would be like saying my wife teaching a Sunday school class would be forbidden since she also teaches in public school.

[jimnyc]

You disgust me. Blaming the kid for his own death.

Stay on topic and go away. We don't need you ruining threads. I'm not going to continue being nice about this. I'm trying my best to get along with you, reinstate you to banned threads and prompting you to discuss things with us. As usual, you are being emotional all over, and it ends up in feuds and ruined threads. We don't need it or want it. Just please participate like everyone else and mellow out.

[logroller]

As to the second, a witness would apparently testify that he witnessed Zimmerman having his head bashed into the ground by Martin, and pleading for help. That, and the visible gash to the back of his head, treated by paramedics, could very easily be used to show that a felonious assault was taking or took place.

According to Zimmerman and the one eye-witness-- it was taking place, Martin was on top of Zimmerman assaulting him. Zimmerman couldn't have retreated from the engagement at that point; thus, stand your ground doesn't apply- it's just self-defense. To illustrate the difference, if Martin had ran off after knocking Zimmerman to the ground, Zimmerman gave chase and confronted Martin, Martin then tried punching him again and then Zimmerman shot him-- it would be a stand-your-ground situation.

[jimnyc]

According to Zimmerman and the one eye-witness-- it was taking place, Martin was on top of Zimmerman assaulting him. Zimmerman couldn't have retreated from the engagement at that point; thus, stand your ground doesn't apply- it's just self-defense. To illustrate the difference, if Martin had ran off after knocking Zimmerman to the ground, Zimmerman gave chase and confronted Martin, Martin then tried punching him again and then Zimmerman shot him-- it would be a stand-your-ground situation.

You stated the same as me, but in a MUCH more eloqeunt and well spoken manner. :)

[Wind Song]

Stay on topic and go away. We don't need you ruining threads. I'm not going to continue being nice about this. I'm trying my best to get along with you, reinstate you to banned threads and prompting you to discuss things with us. As usual, you are being emotional all over, and it ends up in feuds and ruined threads. We don't need it or want it. Just please participate like everyone else and mellow out.


Listen chump, I have every right to my opinion. My opinion is Zimmerman deserves to be arrested and tried for manslaughter.

[logroller]

You stated the same as me, but in a MUCH more eloqeunt and well spoken manner. :)

Well thank you. I just think its important to note that if we are to believe Zimmerman's account, self-defense would be an affirmative claim in any State, not just Florida. Too much has been made over racial bias and stand-your-ground laws, hoodies ice tea and skittles, when in fact he could have been in a three-piece suit carrying watermelon and bucket of fried chicken-- none of which have any bearing on the case.

[Wind Song]

Well thank you. I just think its important to note that if we are to believe Zimmerman's account, self-defense would be an affirmative claim in any State, not just Florida. Too much has been made over racial bias and stand-your-ground laws, hoodies ice tea and skittles, when in fact he could have been in a three-piece suit carrying watermelon and bucket of fried chicken-- none of which have any bearing on the case.


Racist remark.

[Kathianne]

Racist remark.

Explain how. You stated, just need to clarify.

[Wind Song]

Explain how. You stated, just need to clarify.


The references to watermelon and fried chicken are black racial stereotypes.

[logroller]

Listen chump, I have every right to my opinion. My opinion is Zimmerman deserves to be arrested and tried for manslaughter.

Of course you have a right to demand vengeance based on ill-conceived notions of justice; the courts, however, operate under different guidelines. Its not a perfect system, but its better than trial by public opinion. I understand what you're saying, that a guilty man shouldn't walk free-- I agree; but neither should an innocent man be punished-- I happen to believe the latter is more heinous. Of course we would prefer neither; but in our system of law, one is assumed to be innocent until proven guilty. Yet time and again , you assume he's guilty. Can you see how that assumption runs contrary to a cardinal aspect of Our legal system?

[Mr. P]

The references to watermelon and fried chicken are black racial stereotypes.

Which make neither a "Racist" comment. But stereotypes as you so clearly point out.

[Wind Song]

Of course you have a right to demand vengeance based on ill-conceived notions of justice; the courts, however, operate under different guidelines. Its not a perfect system, but its better than trial by public opinion. I understand what you're saying, that a guilty man shouldn't walk free-- I agree; but neither should an innocent man be punished-- I happen to believe the latter is more heinous. Of course we would prefer neither; but in our system of law, one is assumed to be innocent until proven guilty. Yet time and again , you assume he's guilty. Can you see how that assumption runs contrary to a cardinal aspect of Our legal system?


Yes, I think Zimmerman may be guilty of manslaughter. I'm not on the jury so WTF do you care what my opinion is?

[Kathianne]

Yes, I think Zimmerman may be guilty of manslaughter. I'm not on the jury so WTF do you care what my opinion is?

Progress. A. Walk. Back.

[Wind Song]

Progress. A. Walk. Back.


Cold hearted

[Wind Song]

Which make neither a "Racist" comment. But stereotypes as you so clearly point out.


You think racist stereotypes aren't racist?

[logroller]

The references to watermelon and fried chicken are black racial stereotypes.

...and I'm white, I love watermelon and fried chicken; buttermilk biscuits too. Does that make me black? I guess so; I have been stopped for being suspicious because a rash of burglaries had been committed by white men in my neighborhood. However, I didn't scream racial bias or feel the need to defend myself during the encounter. I simply stated what I was doing, walking home, and was sent on my way. So save me the lecture on proper social etiquette; I've gotten along just fine without heeding advice from those who demonstrate little more than stubborn ignorance and irrational concepts of law and order.

[Kathianne]

Cold hearted

Nope, my heart is warm and brain fine, thanks for the concern. Seriously, I understand your emotionalism today, but doesn't give you a pass.

[Wind Song]

Nope, my heart is warm and brain fine, thanks for the concern. Seriously, I understand your emotionalism today, but doesn't give you a pass.

Go fuck didlo.

[Kathianne]

Go fuck didlo.

I think that's your tool of choice, not mine.

[logroller]

Racist remark.
uh huh; keep reading

-- none of which have any bearing on the case.

[Wind Song]

I think that's your tool of choice, not mine.

didlo is my personal name for Dilloduck. You troll the boys, don't you?

I've never used a dildo in my life, homophobe.

[jimnyc]

didlo is my personal name for Dilloduck. You troll the boys, don't you?

I've never used a dildo in my life, homophobe.

Kath stating you like dildos means somehow she is in fear of you? I think some people are disgusted by gays and their filthy activities, but that's hardly fear.

[Wind Song]

Kath stating you like dildos means somehow she is in fear of you? I think some people are disgusted by gays and their filthy activities, but that's hardly fear.


One. I have never used a dildo in my life. If I were into dicks I'd use a real one.

Two. Kathianne and Didlo have been an item. Three. Kathianne dislikes me intensely, but I think it has nothing to do with me being a lesbian.

[jimnyc]

One. I have never used a dildo in my life. If I were into dicks I'd use a real one.

Two. Kathianne and Didlo have been an item. Three. Kathianne dislikes me intensely, but I think it has nothing to do with me being a lesbian.

And again, WHY would you somehow think people FEAR you because of this?

[Mr. P]

You think racist stereotypes aren't racist?

It's not what I think, by definition they aren't..go figure, that pesky little proper definition of words just gets in the way of the uneducated when one uses them to bend truth. Just, Damn!

[Wind Song]

And again, WHY would you somehow think people FEAR you because of this?


If I said that I think people fear me for being gay, then that wasn't what I meant. People HATE some of us for loving someone of our own gender. Some gays who can't come out are homophobes.

[Wind Song]

It's not what I think, by definition they aren't..go figure, that pesky little proper definition of words just gets in the way of the uneducated when one uses them to bend truth. Just, Damn!

Listen bud. If you're calling me a liar, then you don't know me or understand me a bit.

[jimnyc]

If I said that I think people fear me for being gay, then that wasn't what I meant. People HATE some of us for loving someone of our own gender. Some gays who can't come out are homophobes.

By the literal definition, it would mean a fear of homosexuals. I know or heard of very few people who fear homosexuals. But many people find the actions of gay people to be repulsive. With that said, WHO brought queers into this discussion?

[Mr. P]

Listen bud. If you're calling me a liar, then you don't know me or understand me a bit.

I really don't think you're smart enough to lie. OUCH! Hey, it's the truth, IMO.

[Wind Song]

By the literal definition, it would mean a fear of homosexuals. I know or heard of very few people who fear homosexuals. But many people find the actions of gay people to be repulsive. With that said, WHO brought queers into this discussion?

I probably brought queers into the discussion. Somewhere in one of these thread is the term "didlo", my own personal nickname for Dillo, that someone thinks has somethign to do with a dildo, which isn't anything I'm into.

It's a stereotype of lesbians probably started by some dick insecure man that makes it seem as if all lesbians need to be "corrected" was a penis, real or fake.

I admit, I've been to an Irish wake for my dog, and I've had a couple of gin and tonics. I'm not making much sense.

[jimnyc]

I admit, I've been to an Irish wake for my dog, and I've had a couple of gin and tonics. I'm not making much sense.

If I were in your shoes, and just put my dog down, I would move on to the harder drinks, have some whiskey! Then take your ass down to the forums below labeled "Lounge" or "Humor" and TALK with people, instead of discussing politics and channeling your anger into others who did nothing to you. People here WILL be nice to you, but not in a political thread where the topics are heated.

For the record, this will be the last time I attempt to talk and/or reason with you into becoming a better member, one who will be accepted here. I think you prefer the drama as you've posted like this when you weren't drinking.

[Wind Song]

If I were in your shoes, and just put my dog down, I would move on to the harder drinks, have some whiskey! Then take your ass down to the forums below labeled "Lounge" or "Humor" and TALK with people, instead of discussing politics and channeling your anger into others who did nothing to you. People here WILL be nice to you, but not in a political thread where the topics are heated.

For the record, this will be the last time I attempt to talk and/or reason with you into becoming a better member, one who will be accepted here. I think you prefer the drama as you've posted like this when you weren't drinking.


Bug off. If you don't want me posting here, ban me.

You don't want me here, fine.

[Kathianne]

Bug off. If you don't want me posting here, ban me.

You don't want me here, fine.

Yes, by all means Jim, give her more reason to play the martyr.

[jimnyc]

Bug off. If you don't want me posting here, ban me.

You don't want me here, fine.

Sure. Now re-read what I posted when you are sober and you'll see I've been trying to help you, be nice to you, and do everything within reason to keep from moderating anyone at all. But you're acting so emotional today that you are basically badgering me into banning you instead of seeing that I am reaching out to you, trying to have better discussions with you and trying to avoid the hostility.

[Wind Song]

Yes, by all means Jim, give her more reason to play the martyr.


By all means, Kathianne, show no compassion to someone who's just lost her dog.

[jimnyc]

By all means, Kathianne, show no compassion to someone who's just lost her dog.

If you kept it to just that thread, the entire community would be compassionate towards you. People aren't going to be compassionate when you fly off the handle with name calling and accusations about them. Hell, some reading up here in these threads won't even know you lost your dog today, not everyone reads every post.

Seriously, hit the whiskey, hit the bong, pop some pills - go outside and stare at the moon and think of better times with your pup. Being an ass on here isn't going to make you feel better about the situation.

[Kathianne]

If you kept it to just that thread, the entire community would be compassionate towards you. People aren't going to be compassionate when you fly off the handle with name calling and accusations about them. Hell, some reading up here in these threads won't even know you lost your dog today, not everyone reads every post.

Seriously, hit the whiskey, hit the bong, pop some pills - go outside and stare at the moon and think of better times with your pup. Being an ass on here isn't going to make you feel better about the situation.

Not too mention, I've shown compassion towards her and her dog. She's just a drama queen.

[jimnyc]

Not too mention, I've shown compassion towards her and her dog. She's just a drama queen.

I know, I've seen you trying, but she turns sincere words from us into jabs, and makes herself a victim out of things that don't exist.

[Wind Song]

Sure. Now re-read what I posted when you are sober and you'll see I've been trying to help you, be nice to you, and do everything within reason to keep from moderating anyone at all. But you're acting so emotional today that you are basically badgering me into banning you instead of seeing that I am reaching out to you, trying to have better discussions with you and trying to avoid the hostility.


Honestly Jim, I really don't care. You can ban me if you think I'm not contributing to this forum the way you'd prefer.

I have great kindness toward myself. I am really sad to lose my dog, and it's a big deal to me that I chose to have her euthanized. That goes against Buddhism.

But all you care about is making fun of me, making me look like a jerk. Fine. I don't care if I'm a jerk right now.

Make points with your friends. I'm not one of them.

[DragonStryk72]

Honestly Jim, I really don't care. You can ban me if you think I'm not contributing to this forum the way you'd prefer.

I have great kindness toward myself. I am really sad to lose my dog, and it's a big deal to me that I chose to have her euthanized. That goes against Buddhism.

But all you care about is making fun of me, making me look like a jerk. Fine. I don't care if I'm a jerk right now.

Make points with your friends. I'm not one of them.

Okay, Wind Song, listen to me: He doesn't want to make you look like a jerk, he doesn't want to make fun of you. He gets that you lost a valued friend, but that does not excuse your behavior today.

You talk about being so very Buddhist, but you're attacking just about everyone on the forum, regardless of thread or discussion. You even brought this into your own thread about the very subject you're so hurt over, where absolutely no one was being mean to you, and were in fact giving you their sympathies.

No one is telling you that they want to ban you, but your own actions are working almost actively to bring that about. If you are not up to debate right now, that's fine. Christ, you could spend literally the next week doing nothing but talking about all the good times you had with Daisy, about the process of bringing her back to a semblance of health, and no one on here would take a go at you. Pretty much everyone on this board has lost someone, friends, family, pets, and none of them are about to take a go at you for it.

My advice is to stop posting in all of these other discussions, and just spend your time on the topic you obviously really want to discuss. Just put the rest of the debates aside until the mourning period is over. No one here is going to look down on you for it.

[fj1200]

That's not true. Fact: Trayon was doing nothing wrong but walking home in the rain and talking to his GF. Fact: Zimmmerman was fired from a security job for using excess force and his co-worker describe him as jekyl and hyde. Fact: Trayvon Martin was shot to death and he was unarmed.

This is NOT conjecture but fact.

Selective fact picking I see. If the witness accounts are to be believed Martin may have been unarmed but he was not defenseless.

[gabosaurus]

Strange how some people can get so angry over a message board topic.
I mean, if all this makes you this angry, click off your computer and give yourself time to chill out. Or go to another web site. I think all participants need a healthy dose of LOL Cats.

http://icanhascheezburger.com/

[Wind Song]

Selective fact picking I see. If the witness accounts are to be believed Martin may have been unarmed but he was not defenseless.

Witness accounts vary. Some witnesses blaim Zimmerman for starting a fight. It sounds like Martin was fighting for his life, and Zimmerman was determined to kill him.

[fj1200]

Witness accounts vary. Some witnesses blaim Zimmerman for starting a fight. It sounds like Martin was fighting for his life, and Zimmerman was determined to kill him.

And back to the conjecture. That didn't take long.

[Wind Song]

And back to the conjecture. That didn't take long.
Yes, that's the inference I came to after considering his history, (DV, attacking a cop, and being fired from a security job for excessive use of force, being called "jekyl and hyde" by his co-workers.), several witness statements, including the one by Martin's GF, among others.

That's what debate is. You state a premise and then you describe how you come to hold that view.

[jimnyc]

Yes, that's the inference I came to after considering his history, (DV, attacking a cop, and being fired from a security job for excessive use of force, being called "jekyl and hyde" by his co-workers.), several witness statements, including the one by Martin's GF, among others.

That's what debate is. You state a premise and then you describe how you come to hold that view.

You seem to take the girlfriend's version as gospel, when she wasn't there, and knows absolutely nothing of what happened once the 2 engaged one another. But you quickly dismiss what the one and only eyewitness states he saw. Why do you believe so much what she says, and what the other woman "feels" she heard but saw nothing - but don't believe what the man states he saw, which is the same as Zimmerman, and is in line with the forensic evidence?

[logroller]

You seem to take the girlfriend's version as gospel, when she wasn't there, and knows absolutely nothing of what happened once the 2 engaged one another. But you quickly dismiss what the one and only eyewitness states he saw. Why do you believe so much what she says, and what the other woman "feels" she heard but saw nothing - but don't believe what the man states he saw, which is the same as Zimmerman, and is in line with the forensic evidence?

It might have something to do with the inherent bias associated with an opinion of Zimmerman as a bigoted trigger-happy stalker vigilante executioner.

[Dilloduck]

Executioner---that one cracks me up----outta get some award for over the top exageration of the century.

[fj1200]

Yes, that's the inference I came to after considering his history, (DV, attacking a cop, and being fired from a security job for excessive use of force, being called "jekyl and hyde" by his co-workers.), several witness statements, including the one by Martin's GF, among others.

That's what debate is. You state a premise and then you describe how you come to hold that view.

I'm certainly aware of what a debate is and I'm also aware of your premise and your insistence on holding that view to the detriment of all other information. The problem is that you/we should be engaging in a dialectic where we seek to establish the truth and not just "win."

[Kathianne]

Okay, Wind Song, listen to me: He doesn't want to make you look like a jerk, he doesn't want to make fun of you. He gets that you lost a valued friend, but that does not excuse your behavior today.

You talk about being so very Buddhist, but you're attacking just about everyone on the forum, regardless of thread or discussion. You even brought this into your own thread about the very subject you're so hurt over, where absolutely no one was being mean to you, and were in fact giving you their sympathies.

No one is telling you that they want to ban you, but your own actions are working almost actively to bring that about. If you are not up to debate right now, that's fine. Christ, you could spend literally the next week doing nothing but talking about all the good times you had with Daisy, about the process of bringing her back to a semblance of health, and no one on here would take a go at you. Pretty much everyone on this board has lost someone, friends, family, pets, and none of them are about to take a go at you for it.

My advice is to stop posting in all of these other discussions, and just spend your time on the topic you obviously really want to discuss. Just put the rest of the debates aside until the mourning period is over. No one here is going to look down on you for it.

And she's freaking doing it on at least 3 different boards. Sheesh!

[ConHog]

If LUV has a dick, Log is knocking it into the dirt.

[SassyLady]

If there are medical records, then produce them. Zimmerman declined going direct to the hospital. Anyone with a REAL broken nose will tell you it hurts like hell.

So, you jump to the conclusion that if something hurts like hell, one must go to the hospital. Did it ever occur to you that the paramedics reset his nose.... there is not much else that can be done at the hospital. Perhaps Zimmerman did not have medical insurance and that is why he declined.

I am still amazed at how you leap to conclusions.

[SassyLady]

What you don't get, is that Zimmerman caused the whole confrontation by stalking/following Martin even AFTER LE told him not to. IMO, he caused the fight, Trayvon held his own and Zimmerman killed him for it. Trayvon Martin was not doing anything at all criminal at the time Zimmerman called 9/11. He was walking and talking to his GF and on his way home to watch basketball with his father and brother.

The police didn't even tell the family for three days what had happened to their son. That stinks.

When did the family turn in a missing person report?

[SassyLady]

The references to watermelon and fried chicken are black racial stereotypes.

Well, crap ... I thought those were remarks about my Okie, white trash family. And, you are saying it is only for black racial stereotypes?

[SassyLady]

Go fuck didlo.


Wow....more of that "Right Speech" you try so hard to get others to use, but refuse to adhere to yourself. Double standards again?

[logroller]

I think LuvRPgrl has rushed off to Florida to gather more evidence for the debate.

[jimnyc]

I think LuvRPgrl has rushed off to Florida to gather more evidence for the debate.

Vitamin water just came out of my mouth! :lol:

Maybe he met with the prosecutor and convinced her to press charges? :dunno:

[logroller]

Vitamin water just came out of my mouth! :lol:

Maybe he met with the prosecutor and convinced her to press charges? :dunno:

Well I look forward to hearing his argument. Its doubtful she'd have found his most recent post convincing.

[Wind Song]

Wow....more of that "Right Speech" you try so hard to get others to use, but refuse to adhere to yourself. Double standards again?
"Fuck you" certainly isn't right speech. Are you perfect every moment? I'm not.

[ConHog]

"Fuck you" certainly isn't right speech. Are you perfect every moment? I'm not.

One of these days snapping after their every bait is going to get your lip ripped off by a lure. :lol: