California bill: Felony for teachers to date students

[Thunderknuckles]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/calif-bill-would-make-it-a-felony-for-teachers-to-date-students-even-if-the-pupil-is-18/2012/03/27/gIQAKv2aeS_story.html

Essentially, the bill is in response to a 41 year old teacher who left his wife and family to be with his 18 year old student. This is no doubt pretty creepy and the teacher is a grade A douchebag but do any of you really think this should become a felony? I can definitely see bringing the teacher up on some sort of ethics violations, firing him, taking away his pension, etc but a FELONY?
Apparently there are some other states that have already made this a felony. I don't see why. It seems like an overreaction to me.

[jimnyc]

If the teacher is of legal age, and the student of legal age, I don't think it should be a crime at all. BUT, I do think the school easily reserves the right to terminate his/her employment if they find ANY teacher involved with a student.

[darin]

California - most populous state.

California laws/regulations = TERRIBLE, nasty, immoral and unethical, anti-freedom.

Eventually...

The US of A will follow.

[Little-Acorn]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/calif-bill-would-make-it-a-felony-for-teachers-to-date-students-even-if-the-pupil-is-18/2012/03/27/gIQAKv2aeS_story.html

Essentially, the bill is in response to a 41 year old teacher who left his wife and family to be with his 18 year old student. This is no doubt pretty creepy and the teacher is a grade A douchebag but do any of you really think this should become a felony? I can definitely see bringing the teacher up on some sort of ethics violations, firing him, taking away his pension, etc but a FELONY?
Apparently there are some other states that have already made this a felony. I don't see why. It seems like an overreaction to me.

The people running California believe that Government should be the solution to EVERY problem.

This is nothing new.

[tailfins]

If the teacher is of legal age, and the student of legal age, I don't think it should be a crime at all. BUT, I do think the school easily reserves the right to terminate his/her employment if they find ANY teacher involved with a student.


The Correctional Officer's union (three) strikes (law) again!

[Noir]

My Ad Maths teacher did the same when we was in his 20's and went off with a student, and like it wasn't illegal but his name was smeared over it, which i thinks unfair, they're just people as aslong as they're consenting adults let 'em do as they please.

[Gator Monroe]

NAMBLA supporting Progressives& Far Lefties will vote it down pronto

[fj1200]

My Ad Maths teacher did the same when we was in his 20's and went off with a student, and like it wasn't illegal but his name was smeared over it, which i thinks unfair, they're just people as aslong as they're consenting adults let 'em do as they please.

Parents have a right to know that their kids aren't going to get hit on while in school.

[Gator Monroe]

Parents have a right to know that their kids aren't going to get hit on while in school.

That is Bigoted against alternative Lifestyles (Like NAMBLA):laugh2:

[gabosaurus]

Parents have a right to know that their kids aren't going to get hit on while in school.

It's a trust thing. If you are a school employee, you are in a position of power and influence. Parents trust you not to act inappropriately. If it happens, it should be regulated. There are schools and families who might not prosecute if they were backed by law.
It's like in the military, where you have rules against fraternization between officer and enlisted personel, I believe.

[Gator Monroe]

Trust Progressive & Far Left Leaning Teachers ?:lol:

[Gator Monroe]

Trust Progressive & Far Left Leaning Teachers ?:lol:
Who have issues with Religion & Morals ?:lol:

[fj1200]

It's a trust thing. If you are a school employee, you are in a position of power and influence. Parents trust you not to act inappropriately. If it happens, it should be regulated. There are schools and families who might not prosecute if they were backed by law.
It's like in the military, where you have rules against fraternization between officer and enlisted personel, I believe.

A simple addition to the terms of employment would suffice. Regulation is not necessary to ensure appropriate behavior, only standard contract language.

[Gator Monroe]

A simple addition to the terms of employment would suffice. Regulation is not necessary to ensure appropriate behavior, only standard contract language.

LOL , try again (Union won't buy it )

[fj1200]

LOL , try again (Union won't buy it )

Well, there is that. I presumed that would be the case but had no info so didn't bring it up. We need laws and regulations to make up for the death of common sense.

[logroller]

Seems a simple honor code would suffice. I'm surprised its not already established.

Like when students are told at the beginning of a class, don't cheat...you'll receive an F and get kicked out of my class.
Hey teachers, don't screw your students; you'll lose your job.

[Gator Monroe]

Progressive Union Members & Far Lefties who already have issues with Religion & Morals bringing "Honor" into it ?:lol:

[logroller]

Progressive Union Members & Far Lefties who already have issues with Religion & Morals bringing "Honor" into it ?:lol:

Or nutters trying to put everything in a nutshell...:flameth:

[Noir]

Parents have a right to know that their kids aren't going to get hit on while in school.

Kids? Yes. Adults? I don't think so.

Espeically given there will be plenty of adults in schools whose parents have nothing to do with them.

[Gator Monroe]

Or nutters trying to put everything in a nutshell...:flameth:

Moral Equivication = Nutter:lol:

[logroller]

Moral Equivication = Nutter:lol:

parroting punditry= nutter.:cool:

[jimnyc]

Kids? Yes. Adults? I don't think so.

Espeically given there will be plenty of adults in schools whose parents have nothing to do with them.

Teachers and other staff members should all be under contract, and it should have a "morality clause", just like Pro sports, and have them shitcanned of they engage in certain conduct. But a contract issue, not a legal one, unless of course it's an underage person.

[Noir]

Teachers and other staff members should all be under contract, and it should have a "morality clause", just like Pro sports, and have them shitcanned of they engage in certain conduct. But a contract issue, not a legal one, unless of course it's an underage person.

How would that affect say a teacher who has a gf/bf at another school?

[Gator Monroe]

The Left & Far Left & Unions have big plans (Religion & Morals are not a part of them)

[gabosaurus]

California - most populous state.

California laws/regulations = TERRIBLE, nasty, immoral and unethical, anti-freedom.


So you're saying that you don't like us? :lame2:

[logroller]

So you're saying that you don't like us? :lame2:

I just read it as disliking the laws, not the people...even as a Californian, I have to agree.

[fj1200]

Kids? Yes. Adults? I don't think so.

Espeically given there will be plenty of adults in schools whose parents have nothing to do with them.

Wrong. We're talking about kids, for the most part, in a primary school environment. Universities and colleges even have regulations against teacher/student relationships if I'm not mistaken.

[Noir]

Wrong. We're talking about kids, for the most part, in a primary school environment. Universities and colleges even have regulations against teacher/student relationships if I'm not mistaken.

Okay well I'm not talking about kids, if the student is a kid then it's wrong, but if the student is an adult I don't see why there's a problem.

[Nukeman]

Okay well I'm not talking about kids, if the student is a kid then it's wrong, but if the student is an adult I don't see why there's a problem.

Noir its called Moral Turpitude...


moral turpitude n. gross violation of standards of moral conduct,vileness, such that an act involving moral turpitude was intentionally evil, making the act a crime. The existence of moral turpitude can bring a more severe criminal charge or penalty for a criminal defendant.

Most "professional" professions have these type of clauses in the employee contract or handbook. I can not fathom why a educator would NOT have them in their contracts. Teachers scream about being on equal footing as other professionals yet they don't see anything wrong with this type of behavior!?!? If teachers want to be considered professionals then they sure as hell should start acting like them, this needs to become the exception not the norm that it "seems" to be!!!

Look at it this way. You as an "adult" go to a Psychiatrist, they treat you for many sessions and get to know you on a very intimate level. Is it OK for them to than date you?? After all you are both "legal" adults. No it isn't due to the patient/doctor relationship, Doctors are not allowed to "ask out" someone they see as a patient due to MORAL TURPITUDE clauses, now they are all adults so why not, Ethics standards and all that, so why do we NOT have those same type of standards for teachers who profess to be "professionals"??

[fj1200]

Okay well I'm not talking about kids, if the student is a kid then it's wrong, but if the student is an adult I don't see why there's a problem.

What Nuke said. :poke:

Some kids in HS just happen to be 18. There is no place for a teacher/student relationship in primary education.

[Noir]

Noir its called Moral Turpitude...



Most "professional" professions have these type of clauses in the employee contract or handbook. I can not fathom why a educator would NOT have them in their contracts. Teachers scream about being on equal footing as other professionals yet they don't see anything wrong with this type of behavior!?!? If teachers want to be considered professionals then they sure as hell should start acting like them, this needs to become the exception not the norm that it "seems" to be!!!

Look at it this way. You as an "adult" go to a Psychiatrist, they treat you for many sessions and get to know you on a very intimate level. Is it OK for them to than date you?? After all you are both "legal" adults. No it isn't due to the patient/doctor relationship, Doctors are not allowed to "ask out" someone they see as a patient due to MORAL TURPITUDE clauses, now they are all adults so why not, Ethics standards and all that, so why do we NOT have those same type of standards for teachers who profess to be "professionals"??

Why should it be wrong? I don't get it? If you meet someone and you both like each other what;s to stop the two of you meeting outside of the professional sphere?

Now of course i can see where not having 'moral turpitude' can lead to abuse, which is of course serious and no-one wants that, but that isn't reason enough IMO to stop a relationship forming.

I agree that the standards should be the same through all 'caring' professions, i just thing that the standard should be 'Adults can decide for themselves, and if they feel they are being taken advantage of then they can take that up with the relevant authority' as apose to what yourself (and seemingly others) would prefer.

Like in my last year of school some of my teachers were only 4/5 years older than me, if i would of dated one of them if i say worked with them, or if they worked in another school, whats wrong with dating them because they're from the same school?

[DragonStryk72]

What Nuke said. :poke:

Some kids in HS just happen to be 18. There is no place for a teacher/student relationship in primary education.

Okay, I can see the firing, but felony is overstepping it by a longshot.

So let me get this straight: At 18 I can vote, thus helping to determine the course of the nation, I can enlist, pilot billion dollar equipment and kill people in foreign countries, I can smoke, which can lead to cancer, I can be tried as an adult, I can sign contracts, and even get married, but I'm still a kid for dating and drinking purposes? Why do we have the age of majority, again?

I seriously don't get what people believe adulthood is, because we are seriously bass ackwards on this. Either you're an adult, and should be treated like one, or you're not, and you are a child. I'm sick of this quasi-state from 18 to 21, cause at 20 years, 11 months, 30 days, 23 hours, 59 minutes, and 59 seconds, I am not adult enough to drink though I can do all of the above, then BAM! that next second rolls by, and God descends from on high, personally imparting the wisdom of maturity upon to allow me to drink alcohol. HALLELUJAH! Oh wait, it doesn't work that way? Well, that seems kind of stupid then.

[fj1200]

Why should it be wrong? I don't get it? If you meet someone and you both like each other what;s to stop the two of you meeting outside of the professional sphere?

I think if you watch the episode of Seinfeld where Jerry started sleeping with his housekeeper, where she did less and less actual cleaning while still getting paid, it might be all cleared up for you. :cool:


Okay, I can see the firing, but felony is overstepping it by a longshot.

So let me get this straight: At 18 I can vote...

I don't think anyone is making the how-old-is-18 argument, it's the relationship between teacher and student.

I think the irony here is that under this law the teacher would be charged with a felony but still keep their jobs via union rules.

[jimnyc]

Making it a "law", if the student is of age = wrong

Student/teacher relationship within school = wrong no matter the ages = contract should spell out what is acceptable and what is not

[Gator Monroe]

Why should it be wrong? I don't get it? If you meet someone and you both like each other what;s to stop the two of you meeting outside of the professional sphere?

Now of course i can see where not having 'moral turpitude' can lead to abuse, which is of course serious and no-one wants that, but that isn't reason enough IMO to stop a relationship forming.

I agree that the standards should be the same through all 'caring' professions, i just thing that the standard should be 'Adults can decide for themselves, and if they feel they are being taken advantage of then they can take that up with the relevant authority' as apose to what yourself (and seemingly others) would prefer.

Like in my last year of school some of my teachers were only 4/5 years older than me, if i would of dated one of them if i say worked with them, or if they worked in another school, whats wrong with dating them because they're from the same school?

If a 46 year old Pro Masculine (Gay) Minor attracted (NAMBLA lifestyle ) Teacher in a State where age of legal consent is 16 with parental consent wants to marry or have sexuial Relations with a 16 yearold boy student whom he has had a Relationship with for almost two years, you would be OK with that Relationship continuing on ? (Without getting to bottom of what went down prior to Student turning 16)

[Noir]

If a 46 year old Pro Masculine (Gay) Minor attracted (NAMBLA lifestyle ) Teacher in a State where age of legal consent is 16 with parental consent wants to marry or have sexuial Relations with a 16 yearold boy student whom he has had a Relationship with for almost two years, you would be OK with that Relationship continuing on ? (Without getting to bottom of what went down prior to Student turning 16)

Well there's a lot in that, firstly there is no point in referring to there having been a relationship since the boy was 14 if you then state that the details of it are not important. If its not important it should't be in the question.

As to whether or not a 16 year old can have a relationship with a 46 year old, if thats the state law for ages and stuff then i guess its legal, though i wouldn't exactly be comfortable with it (i would think a better age for such things would be 18) so i wouldn't say i'm 'okay' with it, as such, but it has no bearing on the OP IMO.

[ConHog]

A simple addition to the terms of employment would suffice. Regulation is not necessary to ensure appropriate behavior, only standard contract language.

Disagree. Even if a student is 18. the teacher still has authority over them. That muddles the whole issue of consent. Added to that the frequency of situations we've seen lately; and I think a law is necessary. Sad reality of life today.

[logroller]

Why should it be wrong? I don't get it? If you meet someone and you both like each other what;s to stop the two of you meeting outside of the professional sphere?

Now of course i can see where not having 'moral turpitude' can lead to abuse, which is of course serious and no-one wants that, but that isn't reason enough IMO to stop a relationship forming.

I agree that the standards should be the same through all 'caring' professions, i just thing that the standard should be 'Adults can decide for themselves, and if they feel they are being taken advantage of then they can take that up with the relevant authority' as apose to what yourself (and seemingly others) would prefer.

Like in my last year of school some of my teachers were only 4/5 years older than me, if i would of dated one of them if i say worked with them, or if they worked in another school, whats wrong with dating them because they're from the same school?
Its a matter of professional ethics. The institution must protect the primary purpose of education. Namely, a teacher has a duty to be a teacher, a student has a duty to learn. These duties would be riddled with dilemma were a teacher and student to be engaged in a personally intimate relationship. Not to say it would be wrong every time, but there's a good chance it could be. Thus, allowing such relationships would undermining its primary purpose and compromise the assumed immortality of the institution.

Disagree. Even if a student is 18. the teacher still has authority over them. That muddles the whole issue of consent. Added to that the frequency of situations we've seen lately; and I think a law is necessary. Sad reality of life today.
I agree that a regulatory law would be appropriate (lose their credential), but not a criminal one IMO.

[Noir]

Its a matter of professional ethics. The institution must protect the primary purpose of education. Namely, a teacher has a duty to be a teacher, a student has a duty to learn. These duties would be riddled with dilemma were a teacher and student to be engaged in a personally intimate relationship. Not to say it would be wrong every time, but there's a good chance it could be. Thus, allowing such relationships would undermining its primary purpose and compromise the assumed immortality of the institution.

Yeah but it doesn't work like that, at all. I mean for example, I myself took a lot of interest in debating and public speaking at school. This meant I naturally spent much more time with three specific teachers. Between lunches, coffee shop meets and having them drive me around the country to debates. I'd sure as heck say our relationship went well into friendship but that didn't matter that during class time they were teaching me history or politics.

And I'm an extremely mild case, the guys who did sports esspefially were always out drinking with the coaches after games or gong out for a round of golf etc at the weekend. Are you to tell me that doesn't happen in American schools, or that if it does it should too because it's breaking down an artificial barrier? I see nothing wrong with teachers being friends with their pupils, and more to that matter lovers.

[Gator Monroe]

Gay Marrage utilizing Past Laws & guidelines reguarding Hetero sexuial Marrage will create problems ,the 21st century is not ready for Older Men and Younger Boys ( under 17) marrying, reguardless of how hard the GLBT & ACLU & progressive far left Desires Pro Masculine (Gay) Minor attracted (NAMBLA) folks to gain acceptance as just "Another alternative lifestyle".

[Noir]

Gay Marrage utilizing Past Laws & guidelines reguarding Hetero sexuial Marrage will create problems ,the 21st century is not ready for Older Men and Younger Boys ( under 17) marrying, reguardless of how hard the GLBT & ACLU & progressive far left Desires Pro Masculine (Gay) Minor attracted (NAMBLA) folks to gain acceptance as just "Another alternative lifestyle".

If youd like to tell me what the OP has to do with gay marriage, I'd more than welcome it.

[jimnyc]

Yeah but it doesn't work like that, at all. I mean for example, I myself took a lot of interest in debating and public speaking at school. This meant I naturally spent much more time with three specific teachers. Between lunches, coffee shop meets and having them drive me around the country to debates. I'd sure as heck say our relationship went well into friendship but that didn't matter that during class time they were teaching me history or politics.

And I'm an extremely mild case, the guys who did sports esspefially were always out drinking with the coaches after games or gong out for a round of golf etc at the weekend. Are you to tell me that doesn't happen in American schools, or that if it does it should too because it's breaking down an artificial barrier? I see nothing wrong with teachers being friends with their pupils, and more to that matter lovers.

Here's the easiest way to explain this, IMO.

This can be an adult of 65 years of age and a girl who is 40. Working at the same company. They are dating OR married. A company can very easily forbid this and legally fire one or both of them. (in most places/cases of course). The NFL can forbid a player from dating a cheerleader if they want, and they're both consenting adults. This is the same with the education system, but with a curve. The schools can have it in the contracts to forbid any relationship outside of a typical teacher-student relationship. If conduct is out of line, and an investigation finds them guilty, fire them. The curve is that the majority of what we are discussing, is students, high school - and those ages generally range from like 13-17 and in very rare cases you have a kid reaching 18. Kids left behind for bad grades or very few other reasons would be the only ones reaching 18 while still in HS.

But then it's off to college. And quite frankly, I think that if a University doesn't already have it in their contracts, they should. Any relationship (when I say relationship, that's assuming it's more than just friends too, that it's evolved into kissing/sex and/or more)... Any relationship could easily affect the grading system for a student, or other benefits.

But even with all of that, and I think it should be language in school contracts everywhere, I still don't see where any laws should be created. Just take harsh action when it happens and fire their asses. If you keep doing that, I'm sure others will think twice.

[logroller]

Yeah but it doesn't work like that, at all. I mean for example, I myself took a lot of interest in debating and public speaking at school. This meant I naturally spent much more time with three specific teachers. Between lunches, coffee shop meets and having them drive me around the country to debates. I'd sure as heck say our relationship went well into friendship but that didn't matter that during class time they were teaching me history or politics.

And I'm an extremely mild case, the guys who did sports esspefially were always out drinking with the coaches after games or gong out for a round of golf etc at the weekend. Are you to tell me that doesn't happen in American schools, or that if it does it should too because it's breaking down an artificial barrier? I see nothing wrong with teachers being friends with their pupils, and more to that matter lovers.
Analogizing friends and lovers...having spent much time debating you'd recognize a strawman, right?

[DragonStryk72]

I think if you watch the episode of Seinfeld where Jerry started sleeping with his housekeeper, where she did less and less actual cleaning while still getting paid, it might be all cleared up for you. :cool:



I don't think anyone is making the how-old-is-18 argument, it's the relationship between teacher and student.

I think the irony here is that under this law the teacher would be charged with a felony but still keep their jobs via union rules.

The problem I have with that part is that it immediately assumes that the 18 year old student is weak, and incapable of making her/his own informed decision on who they wish to date, hence my adulthood issues. In a shrink's office, you're one-on-one with them talking about deeply personal topics, whereas with teachers, you're usually only with them during class/study halls, and there's 20-30 people in the room with you.

[avatar4321]

It's seriously messed up that they have to pass a law for this.

[logroller]

It's seriously messed up that they have to pass a law for this.

I agree, but no more messed up than passing a law that says marriage is between a man and woman.:dunno:

[jimnyc]

I agree, but no more messed up than passing a law that says marriage is between a man and woman.:dunno:

Could employment contracts have protected the issue instead of a law?

[Gator Monroe]

I agree, but no more messed up than passing a law that says marriage is between a man and woman.:dunno:

Or a Man & his 16 year old Male Student ?

[fj1200]

Disagree. Even if a student is 18. the teacher still has authority over them. That muddles the whole issue of consent. Added to that the frequency of situations we've seen lately; and I think a law is necessary. Sad reality of life today.

:confused: As I said, there is a student/teacher relationship. This should be an easy school action.


Yeah but it doesn't work like that, at all. I mean for example, I myself took a lot of interest in debating and public speaking...

Any buggering going on?


The problem I have with that part is that it immediately assumes that the 18 year old student is weak, and incapable of making her/his own informed decision on who they wish to date, hence my adulthood issues. In a shrink's office, you're one-on-one with them talking about deeply personal topics, whereas with teachers, you're usually only with them during class/study halls, and there's 20-30 people in the room with you.

I don't think it assumes that but it demands decorum on the part of teachers and staff. Universities have rules about said behavior and those students are clearly adults and businesses have rules about dating when their is a supervisor/subordinate relationship.

[logroller]

Could employment contracts have protected the issue instead of a law?

I would think so. My running mate FJ answered the question well.

... demands decorum on the part of teachers and staff. Universities have rules about said behavior and those students are clearly adults and businesses have rules about dating when their is a supervisor/subordinate relationship.

That's our official response.:salute:

[DragonStryk72]

I don't think it assumes that but it demands decorum on the part of teachers and staff. Universities have rules about said behavior and those students are clearly adults and businesses have rules about dating when their is a supervisor/subordinate relationship.

And as I said, I was talking about the law, which as I said, seems to assume that the 18 year old is weak, and incapable of making their own decisions about who they date. Charging an adult with a felony for having a consensual relationship with another adult is a massive overstep.

[fj1200]

And as I said, I was talking about the law, which as I said, seems to assume that the 18 year old is weak, and incapable of making their own decisions about who they date. Charging an adult with a felony for having a consensual relationship with another adult is a massive overstep.

Agreed, except on consensual in this case. There is a clear power relationship here until the 18-year old graduates.

[DragonStryk72]

Agreed, except on consensual in this case. There is a clear power relationship here until the 18-year old graduates.

Okay, so let's see if I've got this: on June 13 of 1997 up until 11:59 pm, and 59 seconds, I have no power. BAM! Stroke of midnight, now I'm imparted with some great wisdom that makes it different? How?

[fj1200]

Okay, so let's see if I've got this: on June 13 of 1997 up until 11:59 pm, and 59 seconds, I have no power. BAM! Stroke of midnight, now I'm imparted with some great wisdom that makes it different? How?

:shakeshead: It is NOT the age, it IS the relationship.

[logroller]

Okay, so let's see if I've got this: on June 13 of 1997 up until 11:59 pm, and 59 seconds, I have no power. BAM! Stroke of midnight, now I'm imparted with some great wisdom that makes it different? How?

I'd say that's a more compelling argument regarding the drinking/driving age. I've never understood why we allow someone to drive a car before learning how to handle intoxication.

[DragonStryk72]

:shakeshead: It is NOT the age, it IS the relationship.

But the same basis is getting used. So you're saying that the 18-year old student will be charge with a felony as well, or will it just be the teacher? Because otherwise, my point about age still stands.

[fj1200]

But the same basis is getting used. So you're saying that the 18-year old student will be charge with a felony as well, or will it just be the teacher? Because otherwise, my point about age still stands.

Considering I'm not talking about age at all and I'm also against any legislation about the subject you have me at a loss...

[Noir]

Analogizing friends and lovers...having spent much time debating you'd recognize a strawman, right?

The point being that 'friends' are as much able to fall out with eachother and argue or 'bend' the system for eachothers benifit. Which has been put forward as an arguement against there being allowed lovers.

And as the chasers song goes 'Sometimes friends give blowjobs too' =P

[logroller]

The point being that 'friends' are as much able to fall out with eachother and argue or 'bend' the system for eachothers benifit. Which has been put forward as an arguement against there being allowed lovers.

And as the chasers song goes 'Sometimes friends give blowjobs too' =P
:laugh:
Well, maybe; but not when I was in high school. 'Twas challenging enough to get my girlfriend to.
As for teachers engaging in such activities with students; as the Johnny Paycheck song goes 'Take this job and shove it':lol:

[logroller]

Sexiest female sex offenders. Check out Amy McElhenney. Sex with 18 year old-- facing 20 years.

http://coedmagazine.com/2011/01/21/amy-beck-and-the-41-sexiest-female-sex-offenders-photos/