Witness: teen Trayvon attacked Zimmerman and beat him as Zimmerman cried for help

[Little-Acorn]

Apparently there was an eyewitness to the whole episode, that ended with teenager Trayvon Martin getting shot by George Zimmerman in a Florida neighborhood. And that eyewitness is telling a very different story from what pundits such as Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson (who were not there) are telling us.

The witness says that he saw the teenager Martin attack Zimmerman and bring him down to the ground; and that Trayvon Martin was on top, beating up on Zimmerman who lay on the ground, yelling for help.

If what the witness says is true, this could lend a lot more credibility to Zimmerman's statements that he shot to defend himself.

But this runs against the opinions that many people (including myself) had already formed: That Zimmerman stalked the teenager and shot him as he ran away.

Since the eyewitness's testimony runs so counter to the conclusions people have already drawn, will the eyewitness testimony be ignored, and people start rioting over the "brutal racial killing" they are so sure happened? When maybe it didn't happen that way at all?

---------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/news/state/witness-martin-attacked-zimmerman-03232012

Witness: Martin attacked Zimmerman

Updated: Friday, 23 Mar 2012, 6:19 PM EDT
Published : Friday, 23 Mar 2012, 5:47 PM EDT

ORLANDO - A witness we haven't heard from before paints a much different picture than we've seen so far of what happened the night 17-year-old Trayvon Martin was shot and killed.

The night of that shooting, police say there was a witness who saw it all.

Our sister station, FOX 35 in Orlando, has spoken to that witness.

What Sanford Police investigators have in the folder, they put together on the killing of Trayvon Martin few know about.

The file now sits in the hands of the state attorney. Now that file is just weeks away from being opened to a grand jury.

It shows more now about why police believed that night that George Zimmerman shouldn't have gone to jail.

Zimmerman called 911 and told dispatchers he was following a teen. The dispatcher told Zimmerman not to.

And from that moment to the shooting, details are few.

But one man's testimony could be key for the police.

"The guy on the bottom who had a red sweater on was yelling to me: 'help, help…and I told him to stop and I was calling 911," he said.

Trayvon Martin was in a hoodie; Zimmerman was in red.

The witness only wanted to be identified as "John," and didn't not want to be shown on camera.

His statements to police were instrumental, because police backed up Zimmerman's claims, saying those screams on the 911 call are those of Zimmerman.

"When I got upstairs and looked down, the guy who was on top beating up the other guy, was the one laying in the grass, and I believe he was dead at that point," John said.

Zimmerman says the shooting was self defense. According to information released on the Sanford city website, Zimmerman said he was going back to his SUV when he was attacked by the teen.

Sanford police say Zimmerman was bloody in his face and head, and the back of his shirt was wet and had grass stains, indicating a struggle took place before the shooting.

[Thunderknuckles]

Wow! If this is true it changes everything. Looking forward to see how this shakes out. Innocent until proven guilty....who woulda thought.

[jimnyc]

This can't possibly be true. Wind Song told me that this kid was killed solely because he was black, and because he was eating skittles. She said there was proof too!

Sharpton, Jackson & Wing Nut - emotional nujobs who see what they want to see and make up stories based on evidence that doesn't exist.

Now, IF this turns out to be accurate - Zimmerman is already the "bad guy" throughout the entire nation. I still don't think he should have followed the kid and perhaps instigate a confrontation, but if the kid in turn started to beat the crap out of him, well...

I guess the story I made up to throw in Wing Nuts face wasn't so far fetched after all. :coffee:

[jimnyc]

With all respect to Trayvon Martin, as no matter what I don't think he needed to be killed, BUT...

I do hope this backfires on the likes of Jackson, Wing Nut, Sharpton - AND OBAMA... These people will look like jumping to conclusions without fact assholes.

Obama:


President Barack Obama weighed into the controversial killing of a black teenager in Florida in very personal terms on Friday, comparing the boy to a son he doesn't have and calling for American "soul searching" over how the incident occurred.

Seventeen-year-old Trayvon Martin, dressed in a "hoodie" sweatshirt, was shot dead a month ago in Sanford, Florida by a 28-year-old white Hispanic neighborhood watch volunteer who said he was acting in self-defense.

"If I had a son, he'd look like Trayvon," Obama said in his first comments about the shooting, acknowledging the racial element in the case.

"Obviously, this is a tragedy," Obama told reporters. "I can only imagine what these parents are going through. And when I think about this boy, I think about my own kids."

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/03/23/us-florida-shooting-obama-idUSBRE82M0QF20120323

Jesse Jackson:


Trayvon Martin case: 'Blacks are under attack,' says Jesse JacksonCivil rights leader Jesse Jackson said Friday that he's grateful the rest of the country has sat up and taken notice of the tragic slaying of Trayvon Martin. But he can't help but wonder: Why has it taken so long for everyone else to recognize the chronic injustices that African Americans face?

"We're surprised that everyone else is surprised," Jackson told the Los Angeles Times. African Americans have tried for decades to get the rest of America to understand their plight, he said, particularly their beliefs that justice is still elusive in many parts of America, especially the Deep South.

Then along comes the Trayvon Martin case, and facts that are not in contention: Volunteer neighborhood watch captain George Zimmerman pursued and then gunned down the unarmed 17-year-old last month, and never faced arrest because police said there was no evidence to contradict his claim that he fired in self-defense.

"I hope that this will be a transformative moment," Jackson said.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-trayvon-martin-case-jesse-jackson-20120323,0,2131299.story

[fj1200]

This is going to get ugly no matter what. Especially if the above is true because the whole situation was completely unavoidable.

[Gator Monroe]

This is the Duke La Crosse story all over again :lol:

[LuvRPgrl]

This is going to get ugly no matter what. Especially if the above is true because the whole situation was completely unavoidable.

????

I

I dont believe the guys story for one minute. He didnt even say when he heard the shot, thats something everyone else commented on. It is absolutely paramount to the entire incident, and he didnt say when that happened?

Not to mention, why so long to tell his version.

Plus, the way he states it, he was very close to the guys when fighting, and nobody else saw a third person there.

And not to mention,,,he is standing near the two, when zimm supposedly cries to him for help. The tapes show the cries for help occured immediately prior to the shot being fired. So that witnesses story would have to mean he was standing right there when the shot was fired,
yet he mentioned no such thing.

Im not buying the story

[Gator Monroe]

And OJ was Framed ...:coffee:

[Trigg]

????

I

[/COLOR]I dont believe the guys story for one minute. He didnt even say when he heard the shot, thats something everyone else commented on. It is absolutely paramount to the entire incident, and he didnt say when that happened?

Not to mention, why so long to tell his version.

Plus, the way he states it, he was very close to the guys when fighting, and nobody else saw a third person there.

And not to mention,,,he is standing near the two, when zimm supposedly cries to him for help. The tapes show the cries for help occured immediately prior to the shot being fired. So that witnesses story would have to mean he was standing right there when the shot was fired,
yet he mentioned no such thing.

Im not buying the story

If you read the article it clearly says he talked to the police THAT NIGHT, so he didn't wait to tell his version. He is not obligated to go to the media especially in a case this highly charged.

Zimmerman saw the man "John", he was yelling help to him which is why the guy went inside to call the police before the shooting.

The Duke Lacross rape was supposedly an open and shut case of racism, until it was found the the black girl made the whole thing up.

[jimnyc]

????

I

[/COLOR]I dont believe the guys story for one minute. He didnt even say when he heard the shot, thats something everyone else commented on. It is absolutely paramount to the entire incident, and he didnt say when that happened?

Not to mention, why so long to tell his version.

Plus, the way he states it, he was very close to the guys when fighting, and nobody else saw a third person there.

And not to mention,,,he is standing near the two, when zimm supposedly cries to him for help. The tapes show the cries for help occured immediately prior to the shot being fired. So that witnesses story would have to mean he was standing right there when the shot was fired,
yet he mentioned no such thing.

Im not buying the story

Not buying the story from a direct witness - but you "think" it's racial prior to this. Interesting. Don't facts and eyewitnesses account for anything in your book?

And you're way off in your analysis and may want to re-read. This guy was with the police from the get go.

[LuvRPgrl]

Yet nobody has responded to my points, that would establish the guy as a liar, because it just doesnt add up to other witnesses.
I very rarely would rely on an eyewitness unless there was corroborating evidence or another witness

[jimnyc]

Yet nobody has responded to my points, that would establish the guy as a liar, because it just doesnt add up to other witnesses.
I very rarely would rely on an eyewitness unless there was corroborating evidence or another witness

We have the 911 audio, and now this direct eyewitness, can you please link to the other direct eyewitnesses again, or post it here, so I can see what it is your talking about?

[jimnyc]

Yet nobody has responded to my points, that would establish the guy as a liar, because it just doesnt add up to other witnesses.
I very rarely would rely on an eyewitness unless there was corroborating evidence or another witness

If 2 eyewitnesses disagree, why do you automatically assume the one siding with Zimmerman is lying? Anyway, post their version here as well and let's all see if we can piece it together a little.

[DragonStryk72]

Wow! If this is true it changes everything. Looking forward to see how this shakes out. Innocent until proven guilty....who woulda thought.

Not so much, even by the witness account, he only saw it from the point where Martin was on top of Zimmerman. We still don't know who actually started the whole fight. That's sort of a central problem with the whole thing. I mean, a lot of the opinion against Zimmerman is based on his own actions in the situation, and it would be hard to imagine that he chased down Martin just to have a quiet word with him. So we're still left with a scenario that has a lot of holes.

[LuvRPgrl]

If 2 eyewitnesses disagree, why do you automatically assume the one siding with Zimmerman is lying? Anyway, post their version here as well and let's all see if we can piece it together a little.



I heard the 911 tape, and the help me scream was still sounding right up to when the shot was heard, in fact, it is the shooting that stopped the screams,,,so that alone begs one to deduce that zimm was not screaming for help.

When you pull a gun and are ready to shoot, you dont yell or continue yelling help me
that eyewitness account sounds bogus because he said he was right there when the scream for help occurred, and the shot happened IMMEDIATELY after the screaming stopped, so, if the guy was there during the screaming, he had to be close enough to see the shooting

Im still not buying a 17 year old 140 pound kid could take down a 26 year old 240 pound guy, not to mention, if zimm was scared for his life orbodily harm, he should have had his adrenelin pumping, and trayvon wouldnt have been able to take him down.

one witness changed their story because the officer told them what they should have said instead



the whole thing just stinks
and because of that, I think they are covering something up

[jimnyc]

Luv - can you please post the testimony or link me to the testimony of the other direct witnesses?

[jimnyc]

one witness changed their story because the officer told them what they should have said instead

Sorry, and this one too please, first I'm reading of this.

[fj1200]

????

It was completely avoidable because of Zimmerman's actions. He chose to continue and ignore 911 instructions.

[jimnyc]

It was completely avoidable because of Zimmerman's actions. He chose to continue and ignore 911 instructions.

Avoidable - yep. And there's not much can convince me that his self defense needed to be to KILL someone . Hell, I think showing him the gun alone may have scared him off. And I also agree that he should have made his 911 report and then let the police do their job.

I just wanted to point out, that 911 telling this guy not to follow the kid isn't much different than a neighbor doing so, it's not a lawful order in anyway at all.

[darin]

For some people, NO evidence will exonerate Zimmerman.

Witness: I heard screaming, then a shot.

Reasonable Person: After somebody stops an attacker, there's no need for them to scream

Racismophobes: Of COURSE the screaming stopped, he shot the guy. Classic racist behavior is to shoot somebody you already have the upper hand on!

There's no reasoning with folks who have made up their minds.

NOBODY will SHOOT somebody they have pinned to the ground while that person is yelling for help. Asinine to suggest otherwise.

[LuvRPgrl]

For some people, NO evidence will exonerate Zimmerman.

Witness: I heard screaming, then a shot.

Reasonable Person: After somebody stops an attacker, there's no need for them to scream

Racismophobes: Of COURSE the screaming stopped, he shot the guy.. THE attacker doesnt scream the way it sounds in the tapes, plain and simple, its a defensive scream, help me


Classic racist behavior is to shoot somebody you already have the upper hand on!

There's no reasoning with folks who have made up their minds..




NOBODY will SHOOT somebody they have pinned to the ground while that person is yelling for help. Asinine to suggest otherwise.
ok, so who was on the ground yelling?

and people with guns will shoot someone on the ground already pinned, in fact, that lends itself to the racist theory, skin heads wouldnt hesitate to do so with a "nigger"


Sorry, and this one too please, first I'm reading of this.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/neighborhood-watch-shooting-trayvon-martin-probe-reveals-questionable/story?id=15907136

[darin]

THE attacker doesnt scream the way it sounds in the tapes, plain and simple, its a defensive scream, help me


Right. It's a man screaming for help because he's being attacked; his nose is being broken, and he's pinned.




ok, so who was on the ground yelling?

Sounds nearly exactly like Zimmerman to me. He's being pummelled. As a last resort he fires to stop the threat.

The evidence leaked to the public nearly makes it impossible to NOT be a case of self-defense. However, emotionalism will rule. Z will be charged and likely found guilty of SOMETHING because politicians will cave to those with agendas other than truth.

[DragonStryk72]

Right. It's a man screaming for help because he's being attacked; his nose is being broken, and he's pinned.



Sounds nearly exactly like Zimmerman to me. He's being pummelled. As a last resort he fires to stop the threat.

The evidence leaked to the public nearly makes it impossible to NOT be a case of self-defense. However, emotionalism will rule. Z will be charged and likely found guilty of SOMETHING because politicians will cave to those with agendas other than truth.

Uh, which evidence? Again, the witness only saw one fraction of it, and not who started the fight. So unless you're pulling another witness out of your ass, we still have the same gap. That's even made clear again by the witness:


"When I got upstairs and looked down, the guy who was on top beating up the other guy, was the one laying in the grass, and I believe he was dead at that point," John said.

Now, he'd been close enough to tell the one guy to stop, then apparently left to go upstairs. Note he never mentions seeing or hearing the gunshot, just the aftermath, so again, we have a gap.

[Gator Monroe]

With such a gap , I still hope Zimmerman is only Railroaded into 2 years or less .

[darin]

Uh, which evidence? Again, the witness only saw one fraction of it, and not who started the fight. So unless you're pulling another witness out of your ass, we still have the same gap. That's even made clear again by the witness:



Now, he'd been close enough to tell the one guy to stop, then apparently left to go upstairs. Note he never mentions seeing or hearing the gunshot, just the aftermath, so again, we have a gap.

The witness who saw the young man on top of Z. And the Cop who witnessed the injuries to Z. Those witnessess. They provide evidence.

[jimnyc]

Is it possible that Zimmerman started a fight with this kid, only to have Martin win the fight? Who knows. What an eyewitness on the scene saw was Martin pummeling Zimmerman, and then Zimmerman shooting Martin.

The police, who don't have to release the results of their pending investigation, say that Martin was the aggressor in the fight and that eyewitnesses back that up. The only direct eyewitness that saw the events prior to the shooting, but after the scuffle started, supports Zimmerman. The "forensics" of the case support Zimmerman. It'll be interesting to see the grand jury evidence when the time comes and the evidence that is released.


The Orlando Sentinel is reporting that police sources say Martin was the aggressor on Feb. 26, knocking Zimmerman to the ground with a single punch and then climbing on top of the 28-year-old neighborhood watch captain and slamming the back of his head into the ground. Police say this account, given by Zimmerman, is supported by eyewitnesses, according to the Sentinel's report.

One such witness reportedly told police that said he saw Martin on top of Zimmerman, striking the man, while Zimmerman cried out for help. The attack left Zimmerman bloodied, police sources told the Sentinel, and led him to fire at Martin in self-defense.

Police say Zimmerman was bleeding from the nose, had a fat lip and confirm that the back of his head was cut. He received first aid at the scene but refused to go to the hospital and received medical treatment the following day, according to the Sentinel's sources.

The Sentinel's story also makes public new details about the circumstances leading up to the deadly confrontation between Zimmerman and Martin.

At the time, Martin was suspended from high school after he was found to be in possession of an empty marijuana baggie, according to the Sentinel. Martin's school has a "zero-tolerance" drug policy, the newspaper added.

Zimmerman was heading to the grocery store when he spotted Martin and called police to report a black youth acting suspiciously, possibly on drugs.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-trayvon-martin-case-20120326,0,4845076.story

[jimnyc]

Now, he'd been close enough to tell the one guy to stop, then apparently left to go upstairs. Note he never mentions seeing or hearing the gunshot, just the aftermath, so again, we have a gap.

The eyewitness saw Martin on top of Zimmerman and Z crying out for help. The condition of Zimmerman backs up what this witness told police.

[Gator Monroe]

The eyewitness saw Martin on top of Zimmerman and Z crying out for help. The condition of Zimmerman backs up what this witness told police.

If Zimmerman is Railroaded by Holders DOJ then I'll take notice...

[CSM]

I used to watch westerns as a kid on Saturday mornings. Usually there was at least one about a lynch mob screaming for justice to be done (the kind of justice rendered by a lynch mob, of course).

I just read an article on CNN that states about 75% of the country wants Z arrested whether or not there is a grand jury. If our legal system starts giving in to the demands of public opinion instead of the law, this country is most certainly doomed.

[jimnyc]

I used to watch westerns as a kid on Saturday mornings. Usually there was at least one about a lynch mob screaming for justice to be done (the kind of justice rendered by a lynch mob, of course).

I just read an article on CNN that states about 75% of the country wants Z arrested whether or not there is a grand jury. If our legal system starts giving in to the demands of public opinion instead of the law, this country is most certainly doomed.

And then you have the "New Black Panther" party putting up wanted posters and seeking him themselves, and I don't see many people out there condemning this, and certainly not the people who should be condemning this. These idiots should be arrested for trying to incite violence against this man before all of the facts are even out and he has his day in court.

Watch all the interviews with those who are angry with this guy, they don't give a crap that a direct eyewitness sees this kid beating the crap out of Zimmerman. Did the kid deserve to die for his actions? Not in my opinion, but I also wasn't having my head whacked into the ground.


The new Black Panther Party offered a bounty of $10,000 Saturday for the “capture” of a Florida neighborhood watch captain who killed unarmed teen Trayvon Martin.

“An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth,” leader Mikhail Muhammad said after announcing the reward for George Zimmerman at a protest in Sanford, Fla.

Muhammad called on 5,000 black men to mobilize and capture the neighborhood watch volunteer.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/black-panther-rage-10g-capture-trayvon-killer-article-1.1050370

[jimnyc]

Like I said, people need to wait for the investigation to continue and be completed before becoming judges and juries.


Trayvon Martin Shooter Told Cops Teenager Went For His GunGeorge Zimmerman, the neighborhood watch crime captain who shot dead 17-year-old Trayvon Martin, originally told police in a written statement that Martin knocked him down with a punch to the nose, repeatedly slammed his head on the ground and tried to take his gun, a police source told ABC News.

Zimmerman had claimed he had called police about Martin, whom he found suspicious, then went back to his car when Martin attacked him, punching him.

The new information is the most complete version yet of what Zimmerman claims happened on the night of Feb. 26 when he shot and killed the teenager.

In addition, an eyewitness, 13-year-old Austin Brown, told police he saw a man fitting Zimmerman's description lying on the grass moaning and crying for help just seconds before he heard the gunshot that killed Martin.

The initial police report noted that Zimmerman was bleeding from the back of the head and nose, and after medical attention it was decided that he was in good enough condition to travel in a police cruiser to the Sanford, Fla., police station for questioning. He was not arrested.

http://gma.yahoo.com/trayvon-martin-shooter-told-cops-teenager-went-gun-030349812--abc-news.html

[logroller]

The eyewitness saw Martin on top of Zimmerman and Z crying out for help. The condition of Zimmerman backs up what this witness told police.

The issue I foresee is whether Z wantonly aggravated the situation. Those calling for his head on a stick believe he did, with race as his motive; wanting to protect your neighborhood would be reasonable, while keeping people of a certain race out of your neighborhood would not be.
Its a difficult issue, obviously it had a tragic ending and We are compelled to prevent such incidents from reoccurring. Particularly difficult for me to understand is either man's reasoning, because I would have not confronted Martin as Z did, nor engaged Z as Martin did. So I see it as though both of them "stood their ground" and that places the burden upon the law which specifically approves of this.

[Trigg]

Another race hater has joined the lynch mob instead of waiting for all the facts.

Spike Lee has tweeted Zimmerman's address. I wonder, if this leads to Zimmerman's or someone elses death, should HE be held at least partly responsible???


What about the Black Panthers who've issued a "wanted" poster??

[jimnyc]

The issue I foresee is whether Z wantonly aggravated the situation. Those calling for his head on a stick believe he did, with race as his motive; wanting to protect your neighborhood would be reasonable, while keeping people of a certain race out of your neighborhood would not be.
Its a difficult issue, obviously it had a tragic ending and We are compelled to prevent such incidents from reoccurring. Particularly difficult for me to understand is either man's reasoning, because I would have not confronted Martin as Z did, nor engaged Z as Martin did. So I see it as though both of them "stood their ground" and that places the burden upon the law which specifically approves of this.

Basically, and unfortunately for Martin and his family, it'll come down to what can be proven too. It appears there is enough proof to know how Zimmerman got the fucked up face and wound to the back of his head, but much of what transpired might only be known to him and Martin. Jurors "should" only vote on the evidence given, not emotions, and thus far the evidence points to Zimmerman telling the truth.

Now, they would also have to take into account that he followed the kid, and did so after advised not to, and the 2 got together somehow. As you allude to, aggravating factors I suppose.

I don't think Zimmerman was an innocent bystander that was mysteriously attacked to the point he needed to defend his life - but I certainly don't see him as a WHITE hispanic that profiled this kid, hunted him down and killed him execution style simply because he was eating skittles. In fact, from what I've seen thus far, I don't see race being a part of this at all.

[jimnyc]

Another race hater has joined the lynch mob instead of waiting for all the facts.

Spike Lee has tweeted Zimmerman's address. I wonder, if this leads to Zimmerman's or someone elses death, should HE be held at least partly responsible???


What about the Black Panthers who've issued a "wanted" poster??

Spike Lee has been an asshole for a long time. It's people like him doing this shit, community leaders claiming blacks are under attack & people talking bounties, this all makes things much worse than they need to be. Now the blacks are all mad with whitey and will be looking for vengeance, based on rhetoric and assumptions. I'm seeing violence/riot within the next week...

And I mentioned the Panthers earlier too. How Lee and these nitwits can get away with basically asking for violence is against me. Hopefully they will at least be held accountable should something happen.

[DragonStryk72]

The witness who saw the young man on top of Z. And the Cop who witnessed the injuries to Z. Those witnessess. They provide evidence.

The witness who stuck around just long enough not to see or hear the gun shot, and only see the aftermath? Again, gap, unless you've got another witness covering the actual shooting and positions of the people as the shooting occured.

Like Jim's saying, too many people are rushing to judgment here, on both sides, without real evidence to back it up.

[jimnyc]

The witness who stuck around just long enough not to see or hear the gun shot, and only see the aftermath? Again, gap, unless you've got another witness covering the actual shooting and positions of the people as the shooting occured.

Like Jim's saying, too many people are rushing to judgment here, on both sides, without real evidence to back it up.

I think he left a few seconds before the shooting as he told Zimmerman he was going to call 911. By the time he got upstairs Zimmerman had shot him. But yeah, from the time Martin was on top of Zimmerman, and Z screaming for help, there is a short gap until the witness reappears and finds Zimmerman upright at this point and the kid dead. Not sure if we'll ever get that time back, or gap filled.

But there also might be more the police know, evidence wise, that we all haven't been made privy to just yet. As part of an ongoing investigation, they very well may hold back certain evidence. It's great to monday morning qb the situation, but we may be doing so without all the information at this point.

[gabosaurus]

Like Jim said, we need to wait for the police to conclude their investigation to reach a conclusion.

My sister does neighborhood watch for her area of East Los Angeles, which I am guessing is a bit more active that a gated community in Florida. She pointed out a few things.
-- Neighborhood watch volunteers are not allowed to be armed.
--Volunteers are NOT to take action on their own. They are supposed to report all incidents to police.
--Volunteers are not to conduct their own investigations or conduct any questioning on their own. Again, police must be called.

Reading more into the case, I find no racial angle at all. The shooter has never shown any racist tendencies. He has been shown to be ill tempered and have a dislike for kids.

[jimnyc]

Like Jim said, we need to wait for the police to conclude their investigation to reach a conclusion.

My sister does neighborhood watch for her area of East Los Angeles, which I am guessing is a bit more active that a gated community in Florida. She pointed out a few things.
-- Neighborhood watch volunteers are not allowed to be armed.
--Volunteers are NOT to take action on their own. They are supposed to report all incidents to police.
--Volunteers are not to conduct their own investigations or conduct any questioning on their own. Again, police must be called.

Reading more into the case, I find no racial angle at all. The shooter has never shown any racist tendencies. He has been shown to be ill tempered and have a dislike for kids.

I agree with everything you said. Just want to point out to the few who can't comprehend out there, that even though he likely approached this in the wrong manner and went against what is expected of neighborhood watch volunteers - he also didn't commit a crime by those things listed above either.

This guy has mentored black children before and one of those kids mother stated he was quite helpful and never showed any racial tendencies at all.

[logroller]

I agree with everything you said. Just want to point out to the few who can't comprehend out there, that even though he likely approached this in the wrong manner and went against what is expected of neighborhood watch volunteers - he also didn't commit a crime by those things listed above either.

This guy has mentored black children before and one of those kids mother stated he was quite helpful and never showed any racial tendencies at all.

He's an undercover racist-- all white people are! Unless of course, you accuse others of being so, then you're not. Classic witch hunt-- if you turn over someone else, you'll be spared.

[LuvRPgrl]

The witness who saw the young man on top of Z. And the Cop who witnessed the injuries to Z. Those witnessess. They provide evidence.

the cop wasnt a witness, he just observed the results, or evidence of something that occured.

What I find hilarious is those who are claiming Z acted in self defense. Talk about not having any evidence yet coming to a conclusion.
Maybe Z started the altercation and Trayvon got the upper hand, in self defense.


We do know that Z was the first one to make a decision on how to act that lead to the confrontation and eventual death of trayvon.

We ;do know that Zimmerman was told to NOT FOLLOW the suspect by a trained person to handle this exact situation, yet he chose not to
We do know that ZIMmerman was told the cops were on the way, so if his concern was break ins, HE HAD ABSOLUTELY ;NO REASON TO FOLLOW OR PURSUE TRAYVON.
wWe do know that Z made the first intentional deliberate act that led to the shooting, and Trayvon reacted to that. If Z hadnt initiated the incidenty, trayvon would never have had the opportunity to do anything to Z.

And some are claiming self defense for Z, who claimed Trayvon was suspicious, yet dont they think that at the time Z got out of his vehicle and followed T, that made HIM suspicious and could reasonably be considered a threat to Trayvon considering it was dark, he was being followed, Z did have a gun, Z is much bigger, Z was the initial aggresor
el
Trayvon had much more legitimacy to claim self defense, yet those who think Z was/is some sort of an angel, continue to make claims as though if trayvon was on top of Z, that wasnt self defense.

We do also know that the CITIZENS WATCH GROUP'S policy is to NOT follow a suspect with a loaded gun.

We also know that the screaming stopped immediately after the shot, yet that supposed eye witness who claims he SAW Z while he was yelling for help, didnt say ANYTHING about the shot which happened immediately after the screaming.

Bottom line for me is that Z should spend a significant time in prison, otherwise its a clear signal to others that you can stalk and shoot someone dead and claim self defense, and if nobody is around to witness otherwise, ;you will get away with it

We can say that the initial action Z took, was something he was told NOT TO DO, something he didnt need to do to feel safe,

Z had the opportunity to walk away, trayvon didnt, even if trayvon wound up following Z, that is something I would also have done because if someone is following me, then turns around and starts walking away as soon as I turned and saw him, I wouldnt turn my back on them until I knew that person wasnt plainning something harmful to me.

Z could have avoided the confrontation, trayvon had no such choice.

People seem to be forgetting, this kid is DEAD, not injured, not in a ;hospital, not paralyzed, but DEAD....DEAD,,,,DEAD IS FOREVER, THERE ARE NO DO OVERS, if someone carries a loaded gun in public, they had better be very, very responsable, which includes not starting a confrontation when no fear of physical harm is imminent..
THREE THINGS THAT CANT BE STRESSED ENOUGH,

1. ANYONE WHO IS CARRYING A LOADED GUN IN PUBLIC, HAS TO ACT EXTRA ;RESPONSABLE AND CAUTIOUS ;THAN NORMAL, Z DIDNT. JUST FOR THAT ALONE HE SHOULD SERVE TIME AS A MESSAGE TO OTHERS CARRYING GUNS, DONT CHASE SOMEONE WHO IS NOT POSING AN IMMINENT THREAT TO ANYONE.

2. ;DEAD IS DEAD, he shot him, he blew a hole in him, trayvon sat there and bled to death, he is not breathing anymore, his mom, dad and friends will never get to go to the movies with him, Laugh with him, be friends with him.; His family, mom and dad particularly, will always, ALWAYS have a huge hole in them.



3. oh i cant remember three,,,,oh yea, Z INITIATED the confrontation.

[darin]

Cop witnessed Z's injuries - which matched Z's story. At least one Witness to the events corroborated Z's story.


So - we have a guy who tells a story.
We have a trained professional or professionals who find the physical evidence on the scene supports the story.
We have a non-interested 3rd party who supports the story.

Then...we have people shouting it MUST be racism.

Facts:
Z had a legal right to be where he was.
TM may have had a right to be where he was (not knowing the property/tresspass laws)
Z had a legal right to ask TM questions or to confront him verbally.
911 Operators have no legal authority to order somebody to stay in a vehicle, or similar.

Based on what we know, TM physically assaulted Z because of Z's words or proximity.

Z likely feared the beating would cause grave damage.

There's no getting around that. At least the first two or three.

Here's where you speculate, friend:

Z had no reason to confront/follow Martin. You're speculating because you can't know the reason Z acted. Further, Z doesn't NEED a legal reason to question anyone. At any time.

Z made the first deliberate act that lead to the shooting. Speculation. I'll speculate now, too - Maybe Z was indeed walking away because things were getting heated. Maybe that wasn't good enough for TM, who followed and pushed at Z. Maybe TM's fist breaking Z's nose was the first act. Maybe TM's position on top of Z, repeatedly banging Z's head into the ground was the first act?

Z is much bigger... From reports recently, Z is 5'9", TM is 6ft to 6'3 and over 200lbs.

Z was the initial aggressor. Speculation. I'll speculate now, too - Maybe Z was indeed walking away because things were getting heated. Maybe that wasn't good enough for TM, who followed and pushed at Z. Maybe TM's fist breaking Z's nose was the first act. Maybe TM's position on top of Z, repeatedly banging Z's head into the ground was the first act?

Z had the opportunity to walk away, trayvon didnt, even if trayvon wound up following Z, that is something I would also have done because if someone is following me, then turns around and starts walking away as soon as I turned and saw him, I wouldnt turn my back on them until I knew that person wasnt planning something harmful to me. Speculation, sort of. You're talking about what you may have done, you're not talking about anything we had evidence of happening.

Z could have avoided the confrontation, trayvon had no such choice. Since you talked about what YOU would have done if you were being followed, here's what trayvon COULD have done.

Z: Hey! You there!
TM: Hey man
Z: What are you doing out here?
TM: Just walkin' back from the store to (xx location).
Z: Oh! I'm sorry - okay man. There have been a lot of robberies here - just checking in
TM: Oh, you stop me cuz I'm black?
Z: No way - I asked you a question because you're out here- like me- in the middle of the night. Thought you were doing neighborhood watch, too. Just checkin'.
TM: Aight. Cool.

(shrug).

Point is, you're rushing to condemn Z based on pure emotion, speculation, and anger. I get that. I'm saying, give the guy the benefit of being innocent until proven guilty. Until then, do like most of us are doing - awaiting judgment until we have all the facts.

[logroller]

^ Nice post and I just wanted to add TM had the right ignore him and keep walking. I was followed on St Paddy's day walking home from a bar; heard a guy calling me and I suspected he may be doing so for no good purpose, didn't know, didn't care to find out-- guess what i did-- ignored it and kept walking. He had right to follow me, but I had a right to ignore him; no need to stand my ground.

[jimnyc]

the cop wasnt a witness, he just observed the results, or evidence of something that occured.

What I find hilarious is those who are claiming Z acted in self defense. Talk about not having any evidence yet coming to a conclusion.
Maybe Z started the altercation and Trayvon got the upper hand, in self defense.


We do know that Z was the first one to make a decision on how to act that lead to the confrontation and eventual death of trayvon.

We ;do know that Zimmerman was told to NOT FOLLOW the suspect by a trained person to handle this exact situation, yet he chose not to
We do know that ZIMmerman was told the cops were on the way, so if his concern was break ins, HE HAD ABSOLUTELY ;NO REASON TO FOLLOW OR PURSUE TRAYVON.
wWe do know that Z made the first intentional deliberate act that led to the shooting, and Trayvon reacted to that. If Z hadnt initiated the incidenty, trayvon would never have had the opportunity to do anything to Z.

And some are claiming self defense for Z, who claimed Trayvon was suspicious, yet dont they think that at the time Z got out of his vehicle and followed T, that made HIM suspicious and could reasonably be considered a threat to Trayvon considering it was dark, he was being followed, Z did have a gun, Z is much bigger, Z was the initial aggresor
el
Trayvon had much more legitimacy to claim self defense, yet those who think Z was/is some sort of an angel, continue to make claims as though if trayvon was on top of Z, that wasnt self defense.

We do also know that the CITIZENS WATCH GROUP'S policy is to NOT follow a suspect with a loaded gun.

We also know that the screaming stopped immediately after the shot, yet that supposed eye witness who claims he SAW Z while he was yelling for help, didnt say ANYTHING about the shot which happened immediately after the screaming.

Bottom line for me is that Z should spend a significant time in prison, otherwise its a clear signal to others that you can stalk and shoot someone dead and claim self defense, and if nobody is around to witness otherwise, ;you will get away with it

We can say that the initial action Z took, was something he was told NOT TO DO, something he didnt need to do to feel safe,

Z had the opportunity to walk away, trayvon didnt, even if trayvon wound up following Z, that is something I would also have done because if someone is following me, then turns around and starts walking away as soon as I turned and saw him, I wouldnt turn my back on them until I knew that person wasnt plainning something harmful to me.

Z could have avoided the confrontation, trayvon had no such choice.

People seem to be forgetting, this kid is DEAD, not injured, not in a ;hospital, not paralyzed, but DEAD....DEAD,,,,DEAD IS FOREVER, THERE ARE NO DO OVERS, if someone carries a loaded gun in public, they had better be very, very responsable, which includes not starting a confrontation when no fear of physical harm is imminent..
THREE THINGS THAT CANT BE STRESSED ENOUGH,

1. ANYONE WHO IS CARRYING A LOADED GUN IN PUBLIC, HAS TO ACT EXTRA ;RESPONSABLE AND CAUTIOUS ;THAN NORMAL, Z DIDNT. JUST FOR THAT ALONE HE SHOULD SERVE TIME AS A MESSAGE TO OTHERS CARRYING GUNS, DONT CHASE SOMEONE WHO IS NOT POSING AN IMMINENT THREAT TO ANYONE.

2. ;DEAD IS DEAD, he shot him, he blew a hole in him, trayvon sat there and bled to death, he is not breathing anymore, his mom, dad and friends will never get to go to the movies with him, Laugh with him, be friends with him.; His family, mom and dad particularly, will always, ALWAYS have a huge hole in them.



3. oh i cant remember three,,,,oh yea, Z INITIATED the confrontation.

You list an awful lot of stuff in there about Zimmerman, and not a single one of them were illegal. The only thing independently witnessed was Martin beating Z on the ground. Those actions were illegal at that point. Even if Martin was "defending" himself, it still got to the point where he was beating on a helpless man screaming for help <-- again, witnessed.

[logroller]

You list an awful lot of stuff in there about Zimmerman, and not a single one of them were illegal. The only thing independently witnessed was Martin beating Z on the ground. Those actions were illegal at that point. Even if Martin was "defending" himself, it still got to the point where he was beating on a helpless man screaming for help <-- again, witnessed.
Oh but Jim, he wasn't entirely defenseless, was he? :guns4:Obviously, being as racist as he was, Z just knew TM would beat him if he followed him. The plan is just so simple. Here's how it works... First, you have to set the stage by having burglaries committed by a given race. Then you need to get a ccw permit; which can easily be done when youve assisted authorities in catching thieves in the past. Now the trap is set; you just follow an unknown person of color, who based on your racist ideology, you know to have a predisposition for violence. Only you can't just drive by and shoot them, nope, gotta establish some justification, So you follow them, report their behavor as suspicious, approach them and ask what theyre doing-- which will obviously incite a violent response-- let them pummel you for a bit and then shoot them. It's almost as easy as the old Kenyan birth announcement scam to become potus.

[Abbey Marie]

Meanwhile, grieving mom is already trying to cash in by trademarking a phrase related to her son. :rolleyes:

Re: the comment above that neighborhood watch people are not allowed to carry firearms, I would suppose that is up to the individual neighborhood...

[logroller]

Meanwhile, grieving mom is already trying to cash in by trademarking a phrase related to her son. :rolleyes:

Re: the comment above that neighborhood watch people are not allowed to carry firearms, I would suppose that is up to the individual neighborhood...

neighborhood watch policy is in NO WAY a binding doctrine. I know, tried organizing one once, only to find out nobody else, including the police, would stand behind what was agreed to at the initial meeting.

[jimnyc]

Oh but Jim, he wasn't entirely defenseless, was he? :guns4:Obviously, being as racist as he was, Z just knew TM would beat him if he followed him. The plan is just so simple. Here's how it works... First, you have to set the stage by having burglaries committed by a given race. Then you need to get a ccw permit; which can easily be done when youve assisted authorities in catching thieves in the past. Now the trap is set; you just follow an unknown person of color, who based on your racist ideology, you know to have a predisposition for violence. Only you can't just drive by and shoot them, nope, gotta establish some justification, So you follow them, report their behavor as suspicious, approach them and ask what theyre doing-- which will obviously incite a violent response-- let them pummel you for a bit and then shoot them. It's almost as easy as the old Kenyan birth announcement scam to become potus.

Or just shoot him and bury him before sunrise!

[logroller]

Or just shoot him and bury him before sunrise!
Well ya; you could that too.

[LuvRPgrl]

Cop witnessed Z's injuries - which matched Z's story. At least one Witness to the events corroborated Z's story.


facts.

actually, the video of zimmerman that was the first vid of him after the incident, showed no blood or wounds

[jimnyc]

actually, the video of zimmerman that was the first vid of him after the incident, showed no blood or wounds

That was after paramedics tended to him.

[LuvRPgrl]

Cop witnessed Z's injuries - which matched Z's story. At least one Witness to the events corroborated Z's story.

BUT NOT HOW HE GOT THEM, which is the only part that matters, eyewitnesses are not fact or evidence, they are often wrong.


[QUOTE=dmp;534989]So - we have a guy who tells a story. [QUOTE=dmp;534989]I will agree with that, a STORY

[QUOTE=dmp;534989]We have a trained professional or professionals who find the physical evidence on the scene supports the story..
TRAINED PROFESSIONALS?? Get real, cops lie as much as criminals do



We have a non-interested 3rd party who supports the story..eeyewitnesse testimonies are often very suspect.




Then...we have people shouting it MUST be racism..IM NOT IN THAT CAMP




Facts:
Z had a legal right to be where he was.
TM may have had a right to be where he was (not knowing the property/tresspass laws). speculation, not a fact
ODD that you would say that Z had a right to be there, but TRAYVOR, ONLY MAY HAVE HAD??
Why the difference, this just proves your bias



Z had a legal right to ask TM questions or to confront him verbally..
irrelevant



911 Operators have no legal authority to order somebody to stay in a vehicle, or similar..
irrelevant




Based on what we know, TM physically assaulted Z because of Z's words or proximity..
speculation




Z likely feared the beating would cause grave damage..
speculation




There's no getting around that. At least the first two or three..




Here's where you speculate, friend:

Z had no reason to confront/follow Martin. You're speculating because you can't know the reason Z acted. Further, Z doesn't NEED a legal reason to question anyone. At any time. .
we do know for a FACT, why he followed him



Z made the first deliberate act that lead to the shooting. Speculation. I'll speculate now, too - Maybe Z was indeed walking away because things were getting heated. Maybe that wasn't good enough for TM, who followed and pushed at Z. Maybe TM's fist breaking Z's nose was the first act. Maybe TM's position on top of Z, repeatedly banging Z's head into the ground was the first act? .
when Z got out of his vehicle, that was the first deliberate act; that led to the shooting




Z is much bigger... From reports recently, Z is 5'9", TM is 6ft to 6'3 and over 200lbs.

Z was the initial aggressor. Speculation. I'll speculate now, too - Maybe Z was indeed walking away because things were getting heated. Maybe that wasn't good enough for TM, who followed and pushed at Z. Maybe TM's fist breaking Z's nose was the first act. Maybe TM's position on top of Z, repeatedly banging Z's head into the ground was the first act?

Z had the opportunity to walk away, trayvon didnt, even if trayvon wound up following Z, that is something I would also have done because if someone is following me, then turns around and starts walking away as soon as I turned and saw him, I wouldnt turn my back on them until I knew that person wasnt planning something harmful to me. Speculation, sort of. You're talking about what you may have done, you're not talking about anything we had evidence of happening..

stand your ground law allows trayvor to question zimmerman, who was approaching trayvon when the first verbal exchange occured.




Z could have avoided the confrontation, trayvon had no such choice. Since you talked about what YOU would have done if you were being followed, here's what trayvon COULD have done.

Z: Hey! You there!
TM: Hey man
Z: What are you doing out here?
TM: Just walkin' back from the store to (xx location).
Z: Oh! I'm sorry - okay man. There have been a lot of robberies here - just checking in
TM: Oh, you stop me cuz I'm black?
Z: No way - I asked you a question because you're out here- like me- in the middle of the night. Thought you were doing neighborhood watch, too. Just checkin'.
TM: Aight. Cool..
z never said a word about the suspicious character maybe being another neigh watch personu
talk about making stuff up
and yes, its very natural, almost expected, if someone is FOLLOWING YOU IN THE DARK, you would turn around and try to find out why
we have no evidence z told him he was a neigh watch person, and in fact, we have the dialouge over a cell phone that occured before the shooting, and never did z identify who he was and what he was doing




(shrug).

Point is, you're rushing to condemn Z based on pure emotion, speculation, and anger. I get that. I'm saying, give the guy the benefit of being innocent until proven guilty. Until then, do like most of us are doing - awaiting judgment until we have all the facts.

you are rushing to judgement on me. I never, NEVER, CONDEMN someone based on emotion, speculation and anger, NEVER. If you read some of my posts in fact, show that I dont think a person should be convicted unless there is good evidencne available,

[LuvRPgrl]

^ Nice post and I just wanted to add TM had the right ignore him and keep walking. I was followed on St Paddy's day walking home from a bar; heard a guy calling me and I suspected he may be doing so for no good purpose, didn't know, didn't care to find out-- , guess what i did-- ignored it and kept walking. He had right to follow me, but I had a right to ignore him; no need to stand my ground.

trayvon WAS WALKING AWAY until zimm forced a confrontation
trayvon didnt initiate or want a confrontation
zimm definately wanted a confrontation

IN FACT IT IS PROVEN THAT ZIMMERMAN MADE A LARGE ;NUMBER OF 911 CALLS FOR , WHAT THE POLICE SAY, ARE FRIVOLOUS THINGS, LIKE ADOG RUNNING LOOSE, KIDS PLAYING IN THE STREET, AND MORE
Zimmerman also told other residents to keep a lookout for BLACK PEOPLE.....

[jimnyc]

trayvon WAS WALKING AWAY until zimm forced a confrontation
trayvon didnt initiate or want a confrontation
zimm definately wanted a confrontation

IN FACT IT IS PROVEN THAT ZIMMERMAN MADE A LARGE ;NUMBER OF 911 CALLS FOR , WHAT THE POLICE SAY, ARE FRIVOLOUS THINGS, LIKE ADOG RUNNING LOOSE, KIDS PLAYING IN THE STREET, AND MORE
Zimmerman also told other residents to keep a lookout for BLACK PEOPLE.....

And yet there is no proof that Zimmerman did anything unlawful that night. At the same time, there is a direct witness who watched Martin bang his head into the ground. That's called assault. The only law proven to be broken thus far is by Martin. We all may not agree with what Zimmerman did that night, which a lot of was pretty stupid, but he wasn't breaking any laws by doing them.

[LuvRPgrl]

You list an awful lot of stuff in there about Zimmerman, and not a single one of them were illegal. The only thing independently witnessed was Martin beating Z on the ground. Those actions were illegal at that point. Even if Martin was "defending" himself, it still got to the point where he was beating on a helpless man screaming for help <-- again, witnessed.
,
ONE witness who knew zimmerman and was his neighbor, not reliable at all
lead officer wanted to arrest zimmaerman on manslaughter charges
I never said z did anything illegal
but neither did trayvon,
z stalked trayvon, not the other way around,
you guys keep on saying facts, facts, facts,
yet you ignore that fact and focus on what may have happened,
how trayvon could have avoided the confrontation
and use the eyewitness testimony of a neighbor who is very suspect of telling the truth,
for numeersous reasons


Oh but Jim, he wasn't entirely defenseless, was he? :guns4:Obviously, being as racist as he was, Z just knew TM would beat him if he followed him. The plan is just so simple. Here's how it works... First, you have to set the stage by having burglaries committed by a given race. Then you need to get a ccw permit; which can easily be done when youve assisted authorities in catching thieves in the past. Now the trap is set; you just follow an unknown person of color, who based on your racist ideology, you know to have a predisposition for violence. Only you can't just drive by and shoot them, nope, gotta establish some justification, So you follow them, report their behavor as suspicious, approach them and ask what theyre doing-- which will obviously incite a violent response-- let them pummel you for a bit and then shoot them. It's almost as easy as the old Kenyan birth announcement scam to become potus.


there is no evidence of a rash of recent break ins, especially by blacks,
you guys keep on harping on using only facts, then go into speculation, or out and out false information


That was after paramedics tended to him.

where is the interview of the pareamedics?


And yet there is no proof that Zimmerman did anything unlawful that night. At the same time, there is a direct witness who watched Martin bang his head into the ground. That's called assault. The only law proven to be broken thus far is by Martin. We all may not agree with what Zimmerman did that night, which a lot of was pretty stupid, but he wasn't breaking any laws by doing them. b

NOT PROVEN. and a lot of other information lends to that not having happened.
a neighborhood resident and friend os z is suspicious at best, and eyewitnessies are often very unreliable.
I still, still dont understand why he didnt see the actual shooting, if he , as he claims, he heard the cry for help, which we know for a fact that the help cry happened immediately before the shooting.

anyone want a one on one debate?:laugh::laugh::laugh:

[jimnyc]

where is the interview of the pareamedics?

Probably saved for the grand jury - that's why it's asinine for people to come to final conclusions when they know they haven't even seen all the facts of the case yet.

[LuvRPgrl]

Probably saved for the grand jury - that's why it's asinine for people to come to final conclusions when they know they haven't even seen all the facts of the case yet.

TALK ABOUT SPECULATION
and if there is a serious head wound, paramedics area required to bring the victim to the hospital, andf if trayvon, "kicked" his head into the curb,; it was without a doubt, a serious blow to the head.
CONCRETE MEETS SKULL,= SERIOUS INJURY

[jimnyc]

,
ONE witness who knew zimmerman and was his neighbor, not reliable at all
lead officer wanted to arrest zimmaerman on manslaughter charges
I never said z did anything illegal
but neither did trayvon,
z stalked trayvon, not the other way around,
you guys keep on saying facts, facts, facts,
yet you ignore that fact and focus on what may have happened,
how trayvon could have avoided the confrontation
and use the eyewitness testimony of a neighbor who is very suspect of telling the truth,
for numeersous reasons

Martin was the only one witnessed beating on another man. That's not exactly legal, regardless of how they got to that point.

As for Trayvon - he probably could have avoided the confrontation by peacefully explaining who he was and why he was in this neighborhood visiting family. That's IF one assumes he was the one who needed to do so. Its quite possible that Zimmerman asked HIM peacefully, and Martin was the aggressor. Without knowing these facts, it's dumb to ask those questions.

Lastly, use a dictionary or look up actual legal terms, Martin DID NOT stalk him, no matter how fancy that sounds when written.

[jimnyc]

TALK ABOUT SPECULATION
and if there is a serious head wound, paramedics area required to bring the victim to the hospital, andf if trayvon, "kicked" his head into the curb,; it was without a doubt, a serious blow to the head.
CONCRETE MEETS SKULL,= SERIOUS INJURY

I've fallen on concrete and hit my head dozens of time, never needed hospitalization or medical help of any sort.

Who said it was a "serious" head wound and not just that the back of his head was wounded? And they ARE NOT required unless they feel the life is in danger. Zimmerman DECLINED further assistance and has that right.

And WHO said Martin "kicked his head" at all, let alone into a curb? Is Wind Song feeding you information on the sly?

[logroller]

trayvon WAS WALKING AWAY until zimm forced a confrontation
trayvon didnt initiate or want a confrontation
zimm definately wanted a confrontation

IN FACT IT IS PROVEN THAT ZIMMERMAN MADE A LARGE ;NUMBER OF 911 CALLS FOR , WHAT THE POLICE SAY, ARE FRIVOLOUS THINGS, LIKE ADOG RUNNING LOOSE, KIDS PLAYING IN THE STREET, AND MORE
Zimmerman also told other residents to keep a lookout for BLACK PEOPLE.....


actually, the video of zimmerman that was the first vid of him after the incident, showed no blood or wounds


,
ONE witness who knew zimmerman and was his neighbor, not reliable at all
lead officer wanted to arrest zimmaerman on manslaughter charges
I never said z did anything illegal
but neither did trayvon,
z stalked trayvon, not the other way around,
you guys keep on saying facts, facts, facts,
yet you ignore that fact and focus on what may have happened,
how trayvon could have avoided the confrontation
and use the eyewitness testimony of a neighbor who is very suspect of telling the truth,
for numeersous reasons


TALK ABOUT SPECULATION
and if there is a serious head wound, paramedics area required to bring the victim to the hospital, andf if trayvon, "kicked" his head into the curb,; it was without a doubt, a serious blow to the head.
CONCRETE MEETS SKULL,= SERIOUS INJURY
Speculation, circumstantial evidence, speaking to facts not in evidence...pot calling the kettle black. You wanna one on one; I'm down!

[jimnyc]

Speculation, circumstantial evidence, speaking to facts not in evidence...pot calling the kettle black. You wanna one on one; I'm down!

If you guys want to debate the subject, based on the evidence thus far and or the legalities - let me know! Just tell me if you're both in, and what the specific debate would be, and how many posts per person before comploetion of the debate, and I can get one started. I think it would be quite entertaining!

[krisy]

Another race hater has joined the lynch mob instead of waiting for all the facts.

Spike Lee has tweeted Zimmerman's address. I wonder, if this leads to Zimmerman's or someone elses death, should HE be held at least partly responsible???


What about the Black Panthers who've issued a "wanted" poster??


The stupid jackass tweeted the wrong address and now an elderly couple is living in a hotel. People like Spike love racial fighting. They feed on it.

[fj1200]

This whole thing reminds me of the movie Babel; it's all about stupid people doing stupid things.

[LuvRPgrl]

If you guys want to debate the subject, based on the evidence thus far and or the legalities - let me know! Just tell me if you're both in, and what the specific debate would be, and how many posts per person before comploetion of the debate, and I can get one started. I think it would be quite entertaining!

even though the dick is stacked against me, game on. Just let me know the details.

[darin]

when Z got out of his vehicle, that was the first deliberate act; that led to the shooting

EVERYTHING IN THE HISTORY OF TIME preceded the shooting. Trayvon walking between houses instead of using the side walk, etc, also lead to the shooting. Treyvon pounding this guy's head into the ground also did.



stand your ground law allows trayvor to question zimmerman, who was approaching trayvon when the first verbal exchange occured.

You have no idea if that's a fact.



z never said a word about the suspicious character maybe being another neigh watch personu
talk about making stuff up
and yes, its very natural, almost expected, if someone is FOLLOWING YOU IN THE DARK, you would turn around and try to find out why
we have no evidence z told him he was a neigh watch person, and in fact, we have the dialouge over a cell phone that occured before the shooting, and never did z identify who he was and what he was doing


See - you aren't even reading. You throw out wild accusations and rampant speculation - My entire post showed you the FALLACY of your thoughts surrounding this case. I did what you did.




blah-blah-blah, speculation, dismissal, and general hard-headedness...

[fj1200]

even though the dick is stacked against me, game on. Just let me know the details.

Freudian slip or subtle dig?

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS4yyAkKssM0z3z9MTp6-UGre78ggyZg5NIx_1E0yfbR-oxVPUi (http://www.google.com/imgres?q=you+make+the+call&um=1&hl=en&sa=N&biw=1366&bih=646&tbm=isch&tbnid=zIKsju-EyZZHHM:&imgrefurl=http://badwax.net/2010/11/28/you-make-the-call-card-industry-failing-fast/&docid=ONwLmytX_4fmlM&imgurl=http://badwax.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/you-make-the-call.png&w=200&h=200&ei=H7d1T5C1NoSc8QT73JWUBA&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=973&vpy=34&dur=924&hovh=160&hovw=160&tx=61&ty=90&sig=106925468145035506042&page=1&tbnh=139&tbnw=139&start=0&ndsp=22&ved=1t:429,r:5,s:0)

[logroller]

Freudian slip or subtle dig?

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS4yyAkKssM0z3z9MTp6-UGre78ggyZg5NIx_1E0yfbR-oxVPUi (http://www.google.com/imgres?q=you+make+the+call&um=1&hl=en&sa=N&biw=1366&bih=646&tbm=isch&tbnid=zIKsju-EyZZHHM:&imgrefurl=http://badwax.net/2010/11/28/you-make-the-call-card-industry-failing-fast/&docid=ONwLmytX_4fmlM&imgurl=http://badwax.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/you-make-the-call.png&w=200&h=200&ei=H7d1T5C1NoSc8QT73JWUBA&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=973&vpy=34&dur=924&hovh=160&hovw=160&tx=61&ty=90&sig=106925468145035506042&page=1&tbnh=139&tbnw=139&start=0&ndsp=22&ved=1t:429,r:5,s:0)


My money's on spell-check by revalerts....(not so subtle dig)

[Abbey Marie]

My money's on spell-check by revalerts....(not so subtle dig)

You mean "Revelarts'? :laugh2:

[jimnyc]

My money's on spell-check by revalerts....(not so subtle dig)


You mean "Revelarts'? :laugh2:

Anyone seen/heard from Rev? I hope I didn't scare him off by being an ass. :dunno:

[logroller]

You mean "Revelarts'? :laugh2:

Oh the irony...:coffee:

[Abbey Marie]

Oh the irony...:coffee:

Sorry, I just couldn't resist! :cool:

[LuvRPgrl]

Anyone seen/heard from Rev? I hope I didn't scare him off by being an ass. :dunno:


he is one guy I would really like to meet, and sassy

[Neo]

THE attacker doesnt scream the way it sounds in the tapes, plain and simple, its a defensive scream, help me






ok, so who was on the ground yelling?

and people with guns will shoot someone on the ground already pinned, in fact, that lends itself to the racist theory, skin heads wouldnt hesitate to do so with a "nigger"



http://abcnews.go.com/US/neighborhood-watch-shooting-trayvon-martin-probe-reveals-questionable/story?id=15907136

Oh brother. Lemme guess, no, don't tell me.........you're a Liberal, arn't you? Sigh.........are you effing kidding me with all that crap you posted about this? WTF is a MATTER with you damn Leftists? I have one at my site that spouts the same type of tripe about this (and everything else) tragedy.

How 'bout we let the investigation run its course, gather the facts, and THEN you can make an informed statement/opinion, instead of speaking out your keister and making an utter fool of yourself.

Sheeesh!

[darin]

Oh brother. Lemme guess, no, don't tell me.........you're a Liberal, arn't you? Sigh.........are you effing kidding me with all that crap you posted about this? WTF is a MATTER with you damn Leftists? I have one at my site that spouts the same type of tripe about this (and everything else) tragedy.

How 'bout we let the investigation run its course, gather the facts, and THEN you can make an informed statement/opinion, instead of speaking out your keister and making an utter fool of yourself.

Sheeesh!


he's not a liberal. He's a pretty smart and reasonable guy. He simply sees this differently. Ad hominem doesn't help your argument, Neo. :)

[LuvRPgrl]

Oh brother. Lemme guess, no, don't tell me.........you're a Liberal, arn't you? Sigh.........are you effing kidding me with all that crap you posted about this? WTF is a MATTER with you damn Leftists? I have one at my site that spouts the same type of tripe about this (and everything else) tragedy.

How 'bout we let the investigation run its course, gather the facts, and THEN you can make an informed statement/opinion, instead of speaking out your keister and making an utter fool of yourself.

Sheeesh!

Im a liberal? How bout taking your own advice and "How 'bout we let the investigation run its course, gather the facts, and THEN you can make an informed statement/opinion, instead of speaking out your keister and making an utter fool of yourself.

I

highly doubt we wil be hearing from this totally non judgemental person here again

[Neo]

Im a liberal? How bout taking your own advice and "How 'bout we let the investigation run its course, gather the facts, and THEN you can make an informed statement/opinion, instead of speaking out your keister and making an utter fool of yourself.

I

highly doubt we wil be hearing from this totally non judgemental person here again

1st of all, that was not an ad hominum attack. 2nd of all, you are making unsubstantiated claims without benefit of the facts, which is EXACTLY what Liberals do, especially where race is involved.

So if you want to point a finger at judgemental people, you need only pick up a mirror.

I am simply pointing out that the case is still under investigation so lets see where it goes before we start finding people guilty and executing them, as the Libs and black race baiters want

I am sorry if I have upset your tender sensibilities, but if you're going to say wrong & irresponsible stuff, I'm going to call you on it, as I'd expect from anyone here in an open and free speach zone. I wasn't vulger nor malicious either, but you do have my apology for upsetting you folks.

Wow.

[logroller]

1st of all, that was not an ad hominum attack. 2nd of all, you are making unsubstantiated claims without benefit of the facts, which is EXACTLY what Liberals do, especially where race is involved.

So if you want to point a finger at judgemental people, you need only pick up a mirror.

I am simply pointing out that the case is still under investigation so lets see where it goes before we start finding people guilty and executing them, as the Libs and black race baiters want

I am sorry if I have upset your tender sensibilities, but if you're going to say wrong & irresponsible stuff, I'm going to call you on it, as I'd expect from anyone here in an open and free speach zone. I wasn't vulger nor malicious either, but you do have my apology for upsetting you folks.

Wow.

Considering the broad public cry for Zimmerman's arrest, I suppose most of America is liberal in your opinion. You seem to play the 'you're liberal' card with great frequency...which is very reminiscent of those who play the race card in the case before us. Then when called on it, you state the emboldened above; "I'm rubber you're glue.." It's not upsetting to me any more than any other childish and ignorant behavior. I scoff at such things.

[Abbey Marie]

1st of all, that was not an ad hominum attack. 2nd of all, you are making unsubstantiated claims without benefit of the facts, which is EXACTLY what Liberals do, especially where race is involved.

So if you want to point a finger at judgemental people, you need only pick up a mirror.

I am simply pointing out that the case is still under investigation so lets see where it goes before we start finding people guilty and executing them, as the Libs and black race baiters want

I am sorry if I have upset your tender sensibilities, but if you're going to say wrong & irresponsible stuff, I'm going to call you on it, as I'd expect from anyone here in an open and free speach zone. I wasn't vulger nor malicious either, but you do have my apology for upsetting you folks.

Wow.

I didn't see anything so different in your post than most here, so not sure why all the fuss. :dunno:

[jimnyc]

1st of all, that was not an ad hominum attack. 2nd of all, you are making unsubstantiated claims without benefit of the facts, which is EXACTLY what Liberals do, especially where race is involved.

So if you want to point a finger at judgemental people, you need only pick up a mirror.

I am simply pointing out that the case is still under investigation so lets see where it goes before we start finding people guilty and executing them, as the Libs and black race baiters want

I am sorry if I have upset your tender sensibilities, but if you're going to say wrong & irresponsible stuff, I'm going to call you on it, as I'd expect from anyone here in an open and free speach zone. I wasn't vulger nor malicious either, but you do have my apology for upsetting you folks.

Wow.


Considering the broad public cry for Zimmerman's arrest, I suppose most of America is liberal in your opinion. You seem to play the 'you're liberal' card with great frequency...which is very reminiscent of those who play the race card in the case before us. Then when called on it, you state the emboldened above; "I'm rubber you're glue.." It's not upsetting to me any more than any other childish and ignorant behavior. I scoff at such things.


I didn't see anything so different in your post than most here, so not sure why all the fuss. :dunno:

I agree with all 3 posts, to an extent, but mostly Abbey's. Neo is new, so doesn't really know "Luv", and based on a single stance he has figured him to be a liberal. I agree with a lot that Neo pointed out, but I know that Luv is not a liberal. I can't say I disagree with what Log pointed out, but it's only natural for me to go with the woman over the man, so Abbey wins. :)

And Neo - you'd have to do a LOT more than that tu truly upset people here. Read the rest of this thread, and other Trayvon threads.

[jimnyc]

An eyewitness to the aftermath speaks out in defense of Zimmerman:


Neighbor defends George ZimmermanTAMPA - One of George Zimmerman's neighbors is speaking out, saying looks can be deceiving.

Despite booking video from the Sanford Police Department that many say shows George Zimmerman largely unscathed from his encounter with Trayvon Martin, the neighbor said he saw Zimmerman with obvious injuries.

The neighbor is talking for the first time about what he saw on George Zimmerman's face less than 24-hours after Zimmerman shot and killed Trayvon Martin.

"I saw George. He was banged up. His head had two big bandages, that weren't flat, had a bump on them," the neighbor, who did not want to be identified, said.

He described where the injuries were.

"I seen him have a big bandage on his nose and his nose swollen. On the side, where his eyes were at, it was swollen," he said.

He points out exactly where on a picture.

"I seen the bandage right here, and this side of his nose and this side of his nose was swollen.

The surveillance video was released by Sanford police of Zimmerman when he was brought in for questioning after the shooting. Bruises and bandages aren't visible, but you can see an officer looking at the back of his head.

"Once you get into a fight you don't show bruises that day, it shows the next day," he said.

http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/news/neighbor-defends-george-zimmerman-03302012

[logroller]

I agree with all 3 posts, to an extent, but mostly Abbey's. Neo is new, so doesn't really know "Luv", and based on a single stance he has figured him to be a liberal. I agree with a lot that Neo pointed out, but I know that Luv is not a liberal. I can't say I disagree with what Log pointed out, but it's only natural for me to go with the woman over the man, so Abbey wins. :)

And Neo - you'd have to do a LOT more than that tu truly upset people here. Read the rest of this thread, and other Trayvon threads.

Clearly, I'm a victim of Jim's blatant sexism.:coffee:

[jimnyc]

Clearly, I'm a victim of Jim's blatant sexism.:coffee:

Oh, without a doubt. Now, if Abbey were perhaps 450lbs and semi-hairy, then I would have gave you the nod. Outside of those scenarios, it's "boobs before bros" :lol: :beer:

[Abbey Marie]

Oh, without a doubt. Now, if Abbey were perhaps 450lbs and semi-hairy, then I would have gave you the nod. Outside of those scenarios, it's "boobs before bros" :lol: :beer:

Some days I feel like 450 lbs and totally hairy. Then I ask him to get the heck off of me. :laugh2:

[LuvRPgrl]

And OJ was Framed ...:coffee:ll,ll

well he was., doesnt mean he didnt do it, but framing was a part of it
Im wondering how many people here actually got to see, live in person, the crime scene


If you read the article it clearly says he talked to the police THAT NIGHT, so he didn't wait to tell his version. He is not obligated to go to the media especially in a case this highly charged.

Zimmerman saw the man "John", he was yelling help to him which is why the guy went inside to call the police before the shooting.

The Duke Lacross rape was supposedly an open and shut case of racism, until it was found the the black girl made the whole thing up.

yea, that was a tragedy what happened to those kids.
The DA IS A TOTAL DICK

In that case, the victim made up the story
who is the victim in florida case? zimmerman is, so is he also making stuff up? He has waaaaaaaaaayyyyyy more incentive to lie than that girl in the lacrosse case.


Not buying the story from a direct witness - but you "think" it's racial prior to this. Interesting. Don't facts and eyewitnesses account for anything in your book?

And you're way off in your analysis and may want to re-read. This guy was with the police from the get go.

please show me an ANY OF MY POSTS, where the terms:
racial
racism
black
hispanic
white
are used, ANY OF THOSE TERMS IN ANY OF MY POSTS.

The eyewitness counts as much as the eyewitness the duke lacrosse case

Ill go easy on you since I see you are new here


1st of all, that was not an ad hominum attack. 2nd of all, you are making unsubstantiated claims without benefit of the facts, which is EXACTLY what Liberals..

Thats interesting cuz my post was almost entirely nothing except your own words. so you are actually critizing yourself
ou
ou


So if you want to point a finger at judgemental people, you need only pick up a mirror..ditto




I am simply pointing out that the case is still under investigation so lets see where it goes before we start finding people guilty and executing them, as the Libs and black race baiters want .
blah, blah, blah, blah




am sorry if I have upset your tender sensibilities,.
:laugh::laugh:

but if you're going to say wrong & irresponsible stuff.[/QUOTE]
blah, blah, blah, blah



,
I'm going to call you on it, as I'd expect from anyone here in an open and free speach zone...

so why do you get upset when someone called you on it?


,
I wasn't vulger nor malicious either, but you do have my apology for upsetting you folks.Wow..

please quote me where I said wrong and irresponsable stuff
and you obviously havent seen anyone here getting upset, much less me, the likes of you cannot possibly upset me



blah, blah, blah, blah,,,plse

[jimnyc]

please show me an ANY OF MY POSTS, where the terms:
racial
racism
black
hispanic
white
are used, ANY OF THOSE TERMS IN ANY OF MY POSTS.

"it appears a case of racism to me" - http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?34606-Black-Kid-killed-for-being-black&p=534041#post534041


The eyewitness counts as much as the eyewitness the duke lacrosse case

I don't recall any INDEPENDENT witnesses in the lacrosse case. They were either at the party or with the girls. In this case, it was a direct eyewitness who happened to call 911. The ONLY direct eyewitness. I don't think it would be fair to label him a liar, or anything like any witnesses in the Duke case, until such time anything he has offered in his testimony is proven to be false.

[LuvRPgrl]

"it appears a case of racism to me" - http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?34606-Black-Kid-killed-for-being-black&p=534041#post534041

that link isnt working for me.
but, thank you for finding that
I really didnt want to spend the time going thru my old posts

anyways, it helps confirm what Im saying, I havent jumped to any conclusions, if you are asked if you think it was racist, y0ou pretty much have to form an opinion one way or the other, hence, "it appears"
Not to mention, Im not talking about racism on zimmermans part.

[jimnyc]

Trayvon Martin police report reveals details from scene of shooting; Zimmerman was ‘bleeding from the nose and back of head’A partially-redacted police report detailing the initial investigation in the Feb. 26 shooting death of Trayvon Martin has surfaced.

Reuters reporter Matthew Keys first posted scanned copies of the report to his Twitter account. As the Chicago Tribune noted, the report contains details that conflict with several rumors surrounding the case.

The report states that George Zimmerman's gun "was placed into evidence" and not returned to him, and the scene of the shooting was secured with crime scene tape. This directly conflicts with statements made by civil rights activists, including Rev. Jesse Jackson, who had claimed the Sanford, Fla., police department "didn't even bother to put yellow tape around the murder scene when he died--that's how much the police did to find out what happened to this young boy."

After officers discovered Martin's body, the report states, they unsuccessfully attempted to revive him.

According to the report, Sanford police spent more than seven hours at the scene. They interviewed six witnesses, whose names were redacted from the report. The partial report contains information from the first two officers to arrive at the scene.

The first to arrive was officer Timothy Smith. From Smith's report:

"While I was in such close contact with Zimmerman, I could observe that his back appeared to be wet and was covered in grass, as if he had been laying on his back on the ground. Zimmerman was also bleeding from the nose and back of his head."

"Zimmerman was placed in the rear of my police vehicle and was given first aid by the SFD. While the SF was attending to Zimmerman, I overheard him state, 'I was yelling for someone to help me, but no one would help me.' At no point did I question Zimmerman about the incident that had taken place."

From officer Ricardo Ayala, the second to arrive:

"I attempted to get a response from the black male, but was met with negative results. At that time, Sgt. Raimondo arrived and attempted to get a pulse from the black male but none was found. At that time, Sgt. Raimondo and I turned the black male over and began CPR. Sgt. Raimondo did breaths and I did chest compressions."

"Sgt. McCoy arrived and relieved me continuing compressions. Sanford Fire Rescue arrived on scene and attempted to revive the subject but could not. Paramedic Brady pronounced the subject deceased at 1930 hours."

"The scene was then secured with crime scene tape by Ofc. Mead and Ofc. Wagner. Ofc. Robertson began a crime scene contamination log. Lt. Taylor arrived on scene and notified dispatch to have Major Crimes responds to the scene."

"Ofc. Mead and Ofc. Wagner were able to make contact with neighbors in the area. They were able to obtain statements from all witnesses on scene."

"The scene was turned over to SPD Major Crimes."

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/trayvon-martin-police-report-reveals-crime-scene-details-175656087.html

And link to full report - http://mit.zenfs.com/102/2012/04/69081607-29132322.pdf

[logroller]

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/trayvon-martin-police-report-reveals-crime-scene-details-175656087.html

And link to full report - http://mit.zenfs.com/102/2012/04/69081607-29132322.pdf

Ummm; no mention of skittles and ice tea.

[fj1200]

Pics err, Skittles or it didn't happen.

[Wind Song]

Looks like it's not Zimmerman screaming for help.

[jimnyc]

Looks like it's not Zimmerman screaming for help.

And it looks like Martin broke his nose, and cracked the back of his head open, and threatened to kill Zimmerman. His reported size was understated and Zimmermans overstated, they were nearly the same size. The ONLY direct eyewitness SAW Martin on top of Zimmerman.

You'll find any little reason to keep believing that this kid did no wrong. Hell, you were the one who said from day one that this was solely because the kid was black. More and more and more evidence is coming out daily, and almost every last bit of it backs up what Zimmerman has stated.

[Wind Song]

All the family wants is a trial.

[jimnyc]

All the family wants is a trial.

I'd like a trial for the idiot who refuses to move from the left lane while steadily staying at 55mph around here. But you can't put someone on trial unless you can prove they broke the law or have enough evidence to convince a jury. Thus far, the evidence points to Zimmerman telling the truth. You can't put a man on trial because you think the situation sucks.

[Wind Song]

This can't possibly be true. Wind Song told me that this kid was killed solely because he was black, and because he was eating skittles. She said there was proof too!

Sharpton, Jackson & Wing Nut - emotional nujobs who see what they want to see and make up stories based on evidence that doesn't exist.

Now, IF this turns out to be accurate - Zimmerman is already the "bad guy" throughout the entire nation. I still don't think he should have followed the kid and perhaps instigate a confrontation, but if the kid in turn started to beat the crap out of him, well...

I guess the story I made up to throw in Wing Nuts face wasn't so far fetched after all. :coffee:
If it wasn't Zimmerman screaming for help, as the experts say, then it was Martin.

If Martin had been on the neighborhood watch and he reported Zimmerman "looking suspicious" and then ended up shooting him, there would be a lynch mob for Martin.

I still contend that Trayvon Martin was racially profiled and ended up dead because he was black.

[Missileman]

Looks like it's not Zimmerman screaming for help.

Based on what exactly?

[jimnyc]

Based on what exactly?


If it wasn't Zimmerman screaming for help, as the experts say, then it was Martin.

If Martin had been on the neighborhood watch and he reported Zimmerman "looking suspicious" and then ended up shooting him, there would be a lynch mob for Martin.

I still contend that Trayvon Martin was racially profiled and ended up dead because he was black.

These "experts" are doing this work on their own, hired by neither the family of Martin or Zimmerman. I can't say the voice software testing they have done is inaccurate or not, but rather that I would like to hear from those officially involved when this goes in front of a grand jury. Funny thing is, this expert claims he ran Zimmerman's voice in comparison to the screaming on 911, and it was a 48% match. But search for any article, and I can't seem to find any comparisons done with Martin's voice. They have no voice mails, his entire family, and girlfriend, nothing at all to use for the software to compare?

But "experts" also claimed that Zimmerman had no visible injury at all to his head at the police station. Then an enhanced video is released, and it clearly shows his head wound. A so called "expert", Jesse Jackson, claims the police never bothered to even put up yellow tape at the crime scene. Well, this has now been proven incorrect as well. I think it's safe to say its best to wait for ALL the facts to come out.

Claiming this was "solely" a crime because he was black at the very beginning was naive, presuming & jumping to conclusions. Still claiming such is willful ignorance of the facts and seeing what you want to see.

[Dilloduck]

If it wasn't Zimmerman screaming for help, as the experts say, then it was Martin.

If Martin had been on the neighborhood watch and he reported Zimmerman "looking suspicious" and then ended up shooting him, there would be a lynch mob for Martin.

I still contend that Trayvon Martin was racially profiled and ended up dead because he was black.


Of course you do. Your life consists of finding victims wherever you can and leaping to their defense.

[logroller]

I'd like a trial for the idiot who refuses to move from the left lane while steadily staying at 55mph around here. But you can't put someone on trial unless you can prove they broke the law or have enough evidence to convince a jury. Thus far, the evidence points to Zimmerman telling the truth. You can't put a man on trial because you think the situation sucks.
Ugh, I can't stand left-lane-lollygaggers. I think that is a crime in Oregon...well, an infraction, but a good law nonetheless. They also have a law that people can't pump their own gas, but nobody's perfect.

As for the voice analysis, it is something to consider. Weighed against the other evidence, of course.