Black Kid killed for being black [Archive] - Page 2 - Debate Policy

Trigg

03-24-2012, 03:46 PM

Zimmerman incited an incident and then shot the kid. He could have just called 911, the cops would have come and let the boy go home alive.

I have to wonder if you actually read what is posted.

There was a witness THAT NIGHT that spoke to the police and backed up Zimmerman's story. The witness states Trayvon was on top beating Zimm and Zimm was calling for help.

Zimmerman DID call 911 what exactly happened after that is not known until the altercation on the ground which led to Trayvon being shot.

It's a shame that a fight led to a shooting.

No evidence points to the incident being racist.

You can "think" or "feel" any way you like. But, you can't put a man in jail unless their's evidence that Zimmerman stalked and killed the kid. Without evidence we are left with Zimm and the witness saying that the kid was on top of Zimm punching him and Zimm acted in self defence.

No evidence points to zimmereman inciting anything because no one saw anything leading up to the fight on the ground.

jimnyc

03-24-2012, 05:07 PM

Zimmerman incited an incident and then shot the kid. He could have just called 911, the cops would have come and let the boy go home alive.

Read the other thread - direct eyewitness completely contradicts your statement that this was solely based on the kid being black. Would you like to retract your statement? Doubtful you will, even with an eyewitness now. The guy may be a dick, and in the wrong, and went about it every way possible - but it appears the kid did come back after him and start fighting the guy and the guy was even screaming for help - then shot the kid. Admit that much at least, you jumped to conclusions and assumed it was SOLELY about race - and now you're wrong.

Wind Song

03-24-2012, 11:22 PM

If the Kid tried to "Curbstomp" Zimmerman I sure hope Zimmerman is only railroaded into 2 years (Or Less)

Zimmerman caused the whole thing. He instigated the confrontation which ended in Martin's death. I hope he pays.

Read the other thread - direct eyewitness completely contradicts your statement that this was solely based on the kid being black. Would you like to retract your statement? Doubtful you will, even with an eyewitness now. The guy may be a dick, and in the wrong, and went about it every way possible - but it appears the kid did come back after him and start fighting the guy and the guy was even screaming for help - then shot the kid. Admit that much at least, you jumped to conclusions and assumed it was SOLELY about race - and now you're wrong.
The kid was screaming for help.

I have to wonder if you actually read what is posted.

There was a witness THAT NIGHT that spoke to the police and backed up Zimmerman's story. The witness states Trayvon was on top beating Zimm and Zimm was calling for help.

Zimmerman DID call 911 what exactly happened after that is not known until the altercation on the ground which led to Trayvon being shot.

It's a shame that a fight led to a shooting.

No evidence points to the incident being racist.

You can "think" or "feel" any way you like. But, you can't put a man in jail unless their's evidence that Zimmerman stalked and killed the kid. Without evidence we are left with Zimm and the witness saying that the kid was on top of Zimm punching him and Zimm acted in self defence.

No evidence points to zimmereman inciting anything because no one saw anything leading up to the fight on the ground.
911 told Zimmerman to not follow or engage the kid.
Zimmerman instigated the whole episode.

hjmick

03-24-2012, 11:30 PM

Damn racist Peruvian fuck.

Or maybe he just hated Skittles...

Dilloduck

03-24-2012, 11:51 PM

911 told Zimmerman to not follow or engage the kid.
Zimmerman instigated the whole episode.

right---cuz you saw everything from the very beginning. :laugh2:

Kathianne

03-25-2012, 01:06 AM

If people would actually read the facts of this case, they would find that there is little racism involved. It's more about a guy who wanted desperately to be a hero. Someone who, as a member of a "neighborhood watch," had called 911 close to 50 times in the space of a year. A guy who called 911 to report a "suspicious person" walking in his gated neighborhood. When asked by the 911 dispatcher not to do anything further, he pursued an unarmed kid and shot him.
It is also an indictment of a flawed Florida law that states than anyone can claim "self defense" for any reason and use deadly force.
This isn't a story of black kid who was shot. It is the story of a KID who was shot. A 14 year old boy who was someone's son.
Perhaps that doesn't matter to you. After all, it wasn't your kid. Though it could have been.

From what I've read and I've been following since the day after the attack. The kid did nothing wrong to begin the labeling of being 'suspicious.' However, Zimmerman somehow deemed him so and called into the police, the dispatcher told him they'd send someone out, but after hearing he was 'following' told him to cease. He disregarded that.

The boy on cell tells a girl that he's being followed and is concerned. An altercation ensues and Zimmerman shoots the boy, who dies.

Seems to me that there should be enough for a grand jury to look at, Zimmerman was hurt. The boy is dead. Something happened, obviously.

Racial? That needs to be determined, but in any case, why was a 'neighborhood watch' member armed and why did he disregard the dispatcher's advice to stop following?

jimnyc

03-25-2012, 06:34 AM

Zimmerman caused the whole thing. He instigated the confrontation which ended in Martin's death. I hope he pays.

A direct eyewitness to the events shows Martin attacking Zimmerman. Martin has already paid for his crime. Unless of course you can post a better witness than someone right there on the scene SEEING the event...

Wind Song

03-25-2012, 03:09 PM

jimnyc

03-25-2012, 03:29 PM

Zimmerman was told by LE to stay away from Martin. He didn't. He provoked the event that led to Martins death.

Martin did nothing wrong but defend himself. Zimmerman should be tried for murder.

Martin shouldn't have called the guy a filthy spic and then attack him. After the witness said he was done bashing Zimmermans head into the ground, he finally found the chance to get his gun and defend himself. This is what happens when you act like a thug. That's 9 eyewitnesses now that supposedly have seen this kid attack for no reason.

tailfins

03-25-2012, 03:30 PM

A direct eyewitness to the events shows Martin attacking Zimmerman. Martin has already paid for his crime. Unless of course you can post a better witness than someone right there on the scene SEEING the event...

Zimmerman was told by LE to stay away from Martin. He didn't. He provoked the event that led to Martins death.

Martin did nothing wrong but defend himself. Zimmerman should be tried for murder.

And this my friends, is a textbook example of an Arianna Huffington come-mierda. WS fits the profile to a T. I have seen this more times than I care to count. The party line is NEVER wrong and you're a dirty SOB if you let someone outdo you in the suck-up contest.

Missileman

03-25-2012, 04:44 PM

A direct eyewitness to the events shows Martin attacking Zimmerman. Martin has already paid for his crime. Unless of course you can post a better witness than someone right there on the scene SEEING the event...

Zimmerman was told by LE to stay away from Martin. He didn't. He provoked the event that led to Martins death.

Martin did nothing wrong but defend himself. Zimmerman should be tried for murder.

A 911 dispatcher has no authority to tell anyone to do anything.

ConHog

03-25-2012, 06:06 PM

By all means, please elaborate. What makes me a racist in your eyes? I pointed out the truth of why this boy was killed?

The VERY title of your link says " killed for no reason" so how did you make the jump to "killed for being black?"

LuvRPgrl

03-25-2012, 07:17 PM

Martin shouldn't have called the guy a filthy spic and then attack him. After the witness said he was done bashing Zimmermans head into the ground, he finally found the chance to get his gun and defend himself. This is what happens when you act like a thug. That's 9 eyewitnesses now that supposedly have seen this kid attack for no reason.

are ;you kidding me, a guy who is trying to get away is not self defending himself, but the guy who is chasing him with a gun is self defending himself????????????????????
OMG!!!!!

A 911 dispatcher has no authority to tell anyone to do anything.

YES, they do, and it wasnt a normal 911 operator, it was a special police line

The VERY title of your link says " killed for no reason" so how did you make the jump to "killed for being black?"een
I dont know if it was a racist thing, and we prob ably never will know, but one thing is for sure, zimmerman was the perp, he should be punished, trayvon did the normal thing somebody would do if a really big guy with a gun, in the dark,in between houses where break ins have been occuring.

e

jimnyc

03-25-2012, 07:35 PM

are ;you kidding me, a guy who is trying to get away is not self defending himself, but the guy who is chasing him with a gun is self defending himself????????????????????
OMG!!!!!

ZOOM. That was the sound going WAY above your head. Take my post with a grain of salt.

Regardless, as to your point, the black kid did in fact become the aggressor along the way and the bunch of cuts and stuff on the back Z's head, and soaked back, show that he was on his back on the ground. And keep in mind, we are only getting pieces here, and everyone is already finding Zimmerman guilty. There's got to be a reason that so many investigators, and medical staff, and crime scene unit, and then various layers of law enforcement - and they haven't arrested him and claim the forensics and injuries are consistent with Z's story. The way I see hit is that he FOLLOWED him with a gun, they meet, no one knows what specifically happens at that point, then you see Z on his back, by a witness, screaming for help and then he shoots the kid.

It's kind of hard to dispute an eyewitness. The other eyewitnesses didn't see jack shit until the gone had already gone off. And they can't poke any holes in Z's story yet. He must be a white guy, who is hispanic, and was smart enough to commit the perfect crime at the perfect time and develop forensics to cover his story - all in a matter of a few minutes. I'm betting he is former CIA and Navy Seal if he could do that.

jimnyc

03-25-2012, 07:37 PM

YES, they do, and it wasnt a normal 911 operator, it was a special police line

Wanna lay a wager on that? The woman he spoke to that night has NO authority to have told him what he could or could not do, and the police have already addressed this issue.

ConHog

03-25-2012, 07:42 PM

ZOOM. That was the sound going WAY above your head. Take my post with a grain of salt.

Regardless, as to your point, the black kid did in fact become the aggressor along the way and the bunch of cuts and stuff on the back Z's head, and soaked back, show that he was on his back on the ground. And keep in mind, we are only getting pieces here, and everyone is already finding Zimmerman guilty. There's got to be a reason that so many investigators, and medical staff, and crime scene unit, and then various layers of law enforcement - and they haven't arrested him and claim the forensics and injuries are consistent with Z's story. The way I see hit is that he FOLLOWED him with a gun, they meet, no one knows what specifically happens at that point, then you see Z on his back, by a witness, screaming for help and then he shoots the kid.

It's kind of hard to dispute an eyewitness. The other eyewitnesses didn't see jack shit until the gone had already gone off. And they can't poke any holes in Z's story yet. He must be a white guy, who is hispanic, and was smart enough to commit the perfect crime at the perfect time and develop forensics to cover his story - all in a matter of a few minutes. I'm betting he is former CIA and Navy Seal if he could do that.

Untrue. Eyewitnesses are feared by prosecutors , especially if they are the ONLY evidence.

ConHog

03-25-2012, 07:45 PM

Wanna lay a wager on that? The woman he spoke to that night has NO authority to have told him what he could or could not do, and the police have already addressed this issue.

I may have missed something.Is LUV suggesting that a 911 operator can give a person legal advice RE: self defense, or anything else for that matter?

jimnyc

03-25-2012, 07:47 PM

Untrue. Eyewitnesses are feared by prosecutors , especially if they are the ONLY evidence.

The ONLY direct eyewitness AND a cut on the back of his head, shirt dirty and wet on the back and a bloody nose. Without something to oppose that, it would appear without a doubt that Martin was aggressive and likely smacking the guy around.

Gator Monroe

03-25-2012, 08:56 PM

In a Liberal Progressive world the 911Operator has Legal Power & Authority & sway over the other end of the line.:laugh2:

gabosaurus

03-25-2012, 10:02 PM

Gator Monroe

03-25-2012, 10:47 PM

On Drudge Now (Zimmerman had Broken Nose and Injury to back of Head ) Sounds like Trayvon tried to "Curbstomp" him.:clap:

darin

03-26-2012, 04:51 AM

On Drudge Now (Zimmerman had Broken Nose and Injury to back of Head ) Sounds like Trayvon tried to "Curbstomp" him.:clap:

Won't matter. Emotionalism will rule the day. Folks will say "Zimmerman STILL caused it by: Having a gun in the first place. (he could have had a knife). Oh, I mean he caused it by FOLLOWING the young man! (Z had as much right to investigate as the young man had to walk around). Oh, I mean, if it wasn't for Zimmerman's parents Producing Zimmerman, all this would be avoided! (you're an idiot, aren't you?) HATE SPEECH!!

(sigh).

jimnyc

03-26-2012, 09:18 AM

Most 911 operators are taught crisis management and proper police procedures.
And I find it intriguing that an "eyewitness" showed up following the initial police investigation. In the police reports from the scene, there were no eyewitnesses.

Try reading then. It's kind of hard to think there WASN'T a witness, considering he was on the phone with 911 while Martin was beating up Zimmerman. So yeah, I think it was known there was a witness before the police even arrived on scene.

Wind Song

03-26-2012, 03:20 PM

logroller

03-26-2012, 03:28 PM

He was attacked because Zimmerman was following him and freaking him out. Check the phone call from Martin to his girlfriend.

LE told Zimmerman NOT to get out of his car and follow Martin. Zimmerman caused the whole incident including the killing.

If there was a law enforcement official who gave him an order to stay in his car, which he disobeyed, then this is open and shut-- why wasn't he charged with disobeying a lawful order?

jimnyc

03-26-2012, 03:40 PM

logroller

03-26-2012, 03:50 PM

The 911 operator who advised him against following him had no authority whatsoever and no crime was committed by ignoring her.
Well... I know that, and you know that, and ironically, she's not bound to accept it and I want her to understand the difference between good advice and a lawful order on her own.

jimnyc

03-26-2012, 03:53 PM

Well... I know that, and you know that, and ironically, she's not bound to accept it and I want her to understand the difference between good advice and a lawful order on her own.

After I hit the enter button I realized what you were doing. But you just wasted about 60 or so keystrokes. She made up her mind the minute she read a damn blog entry about it. This was all about race, and because he was eating skittles.

https://www.belmetric.com/images/NW10.jpg

Wind Song

03-26-2012, 04:03 PM

If there was a law enforcement official who gave him an order to stay in his car, which he disobeyed, then this is open and shut-- why wasn't he charged with disobeying a lawful order?

I don't know, perhaps 911 operators don't count as LE.

The 911 operator who advised him against following him had no authority whatsoever and no crime was committed by ignoring her.
Zimmerman stalked the boy. He initiated the contact. The boy was talking to his GF and was afraid. Zimmerman is a killer, I hope he is arrested and tried for murder.

logroller

03-26-2012, 04:08 PM

After I hit the enter button I realized what you were doing. But you just wasted about 60 or so keystrokes. She made up her mind the minute she read a damn blog entry about it. This was all about race, and because he was eating skittles.

https://www.belmetric.com/images/NW10.jpg

Maybe she's just a little over-protective over those who wish to taste the rainbow.:laugh2:

jimnyc

03-26-2012, 04:08 PM

Zimmerman stalked the boy. He initiated the contact. The boy was talking to his GF and was afraid. Zimmerman is a killer, I hope he is arrested and tried for murder.

The boy is a dope head suspended from school, he attacked Zimmerman and broke his nose. Justice has been served.

logroller

03-26-2012, 04:10 PM

Zimmerman stalked the boy. He initiated the contact. The boy was talking to his GF and was afraid. Zimmerman is a killer, I hope he is arrested and tried for murder.

If you were scared and being stalked...would you call your girlfriend or the police?

Wind Song

03-26-2012, 04:18 PM

If you were scared and being stalked...would you call your girlfriend or the police?
Both. My GF first.

The boy is a dope head suspended from school, he attacked Zimmerman and broke his nose. Justice has been served.
He didn't deserve to be killed. Zimmerman is no saint. He has a history of violence.

jimnyc

03-26-2012, 04:26 PM

He didn't deserve to be killed. Zimmerman is no saint. He has a history of violence.

And Zimmerman doesn't deserve to be labeled a racist when he never did anything that was racist. All these witnesses, phone calls and stories in a month since this happened - and NOTHING points to this being racial other than assumptions and jumping to conclusions.

He didn't deserve to be killed. Zimmerman is no saint. He has a history of violence.

Oh, and Martin now has the same history, as he was responsible for breaking Zimmerman's nose and injuring the back of his head.

Wind Song

03-26-2012, 04:30 PM

And Zimmerman doesn't deserve to be labeled a racist when he never did anything that was racist. All these witnesses, phone calls and stories in a month since this happened - and NOTHING points to this being racial other than assumptions and jumping to conclusions.

Zimmerman muttered "coon" under his breath. Just because he's a racist, doesn't mean he isn't entitled to a fair trial.

The police have screwed up the investigation from the very beginning.

Oh, and Martin now has the same history, as he was responsible for breaking Zimmerman's nose and injuring the back of his head.
Zimmerman's history of violence preceded this murder. The GF was on the phone with him and heard the initial scuffle, which was initiated by Zimmerman, Trayvon was on the phone.

Zimmerman should be arrested.

jimnyc

03-26-2012, 04:39 PM

A witness watched Trayvon pummeling Zimmerman. WS - do you think Trayvon's racist tendencies towards hispanics started prior to this incident? If this kid only knew how to control himself an not assault people, he might still be alive.

logroller

03-26-2012, 05:31 PM

Zimmerman's history of violence preceded this murder.

If someone is convicted of any violent felony they lose their right to possess a firearm...so why wasn't he arrested for possessing of a firearm? Again, if you're right-- its an open and shut case.

darin

03-26-2012, 06:47 PM

The Challenger Disaster preceded this killing.

The advent of fire preceded this killing.

Slavery preceded this killing, too.

Anton Chigurh

03-26-2012, 06:53 PM

Cashing in on the martyr: Mother Seeks Trayvon Martin Trademarks | The Smoking Gun (http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/trayvon-martin-trademarks-769123)
MARCH 26--The mother of Trayvon Martin has filed two applications to secure trademarks containing her late son’s name, records show. Sybrina Fulton is seeking marks for the phrases “I Am Trayvon” and “Justice for Trayvon,” according to filings made last week with the United States Patent and Trademark Office. In both instances, Fulton, 46, is seeking the trademarks for use on “Digital materials, namely, CDs and DVDs featuring Trayvon Martin,” and other products. The March 21 USPTO applications, each of which cost $325, were filed by an Orlando, Florida law firm representing Fulton, whose first name is spelled "Sabrina" in the trademark records."Nothing can make up for the loss of my son, but I'll give it a try anyway." :whistle

Gator Monroe

03-26-2012, 07:52 PM

The boy is a dope head suspended from school, he attacked Zimmerman and broke his nose. Justice has been served.

Now we learn he went for Zimmermans Firearm also ...:clap:

Wind Song

03-26-2012, 09:07 PM

If someone is convicted of any violent felony they lose their right to possess a firearm...so why wasn't he arrested for possessing of a firearm? Again, if you're right-- its an open and shut case.
You have to be convicted or have a restraining order on you to take weapons away.

A witness watched Trayvon pummeling Zimmerman. WS - do you think Trayvon's racist tendencies towards hispanics started prior to this incident? If this kid only knew how to control himself an not assault people, he might still be alive.
The kid was doing nothing wrong until a paranoid armed nutcase engaged him.

logroller

03-26-2012, 09:55 PM

You have to be convicted or have a restraining order on you to take weapons away.

Ugh. Law and order, what a burden. I read somewhere those cases were sealed by an injunction-- Any guess as to why that might be? usually its to protect the innocent, as in the victim or even the accused as s the case on petition for finding of factual innocence-- but I'd guess it was expunged (ie case set aside)after court mandated anger mngt classes-- it worked too, he sounded rather calm and collected in the video.
Here in Cali they have mandated classes for averting conflict before you're issued a permit to carry. I think that could have well served Zimmerman (and Martin, of course) better than "stand your ground." Its frustrating for me b/c I am a considerate gun owner, but dumbasses always fuck it up for us rest of us.

Wind Song

03-27-2012, 12:11 AM

Neighborhood watch are not supposed to pretend they are LE.

logroller

03-27-2012, 12:20 AM

Neighborhood watch are not supposed to pretend they are LE.
What did he do that implies he was LE, and not just a citizen? Following someone who looks suspicious and asking them what they're doing isn't an exclusive activity of law enforcement, is it?

Wind Song

03-27-2012, 12:29 AM

What did he do that implies he was LE, and not just a citizen? Following someone who looks suspicious and asking them what they're doing isn't an exclusive activity of law enforcement, is it?
He packed a gun and he stalked Martin.

logroller

03-27-2012, 12:35 AM

He packed a gun and he stalked Martin.
He packed a gun, was he wearing pants too-- neither is against Florida law. Stalking...nope, try again; has to be repeated.

Florida PC
784.048--Willful, malicious, and repeated following or harassing. (704.048(2)); Aggravated stalking: willful, malicious and repeated following or harassing another with credible threats with the intent to place person in reasonable fear of death or bodily injury; or willfully, maliciously, repeatedly follows or harasses minor under 16; or after injunction for protection or any court-imposed prohibition of conduct, knowingly, willfully, maliciously and repeatedly follows or harasses another person.

Trigg

03-27-2012, 08:55 AM

He packed a gun and he stalked Martin.

He's within his legal right to carry a gun, so that's a non-issue.

Zimmerman got out of his SUV to follow Trayvon on foot. When a dispatch employee asked Zimmerman if he was following the 17-year-old, Zimmerman said yes. The dispatcher told Zimmerman he did not need to do that.

There is about a one-minute gap during which police say they're not sure what happened.
Zimmerman told them he lost sight of Trayvon and was walking back to his SUV when Trayvon approached him from the left rear, and they exchanged words.
Trayvon asked Zimmerman if he had a problem. Zimmerman said no and reached for his cell phone, he told police. Trayvon then said, "Well, you do now" or something similar and punched Zimmerman in the nose, according to the account he gave police.

Zimmerman fell to the ground and Trayvon got on top of him and began slamming his head into the sidewalk, he told police.
Zimmerman began yelling for help.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-26/news/os-trayvon-martin-zimmerman-account-20120326_1_miami-schools-punch-unarmed-black-teenager

According to other reports finally coming out Trey was not the innocent college bound youngster he has been portrayed as. He was suspended for 10 days for drug paraphanalia.

It's a shame the boys is dead, but there is nothing racial about this story.

jimnyc

03-27-2012, 09:09 AM

You have to be convicted or have a restraining order on you to take weapons away.

The kid was doing nothing wrong until a paranoid armed nutcase engaged him.

Neighborhood watch are not supposed to pretend they are LE.

He packed a gun and he stalked Martin.

Zimmerman was doing nothing wrong until he started having his head pummeled into the ground and his nose broken. Maybe not actions you approve of, like following Martin, but that's hardly against the law. If you weren't a racist, you would see ALL the facts in this case. Instead, you toss out shit like "he was stalked", "he was killed for eating skittles", "black kid killed for being black".

Why do you hate facts so much?

jimnyc

03-27-2012, 11:04 AM

Trayvon:

'You ain't tell me you swung on a bus driver'...

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/cutline/trayvon-martin-shooting-details-emerge-facebook-twitter-accounts-180103647.html

Multiple suspensions from school: marijuana, grafitti, 'possession of burglary tool,' jewelry...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2120504/Trayvon-Martin-case-He-suspended-school-having-burglary-tool.html

NO_LIMIT_NIGGA: Trayvon's TWITTER handle...

http://dailycaller.com/2012/03/26/the-daily-caller-obtains-trayvon-martins-tweets/#ixzz1qGztV3LT

jimnyc

03-27-2012, 11:06 AM

The lovely shirts being distributed around Florida in support of Trayvon... http://www.thesmokinggun.com/buster/trayvon-martin/cracker-tshirt-759832

http://i.cdn.turner.com/dr/teg/tsg/release/sites/default/files/assets/zimmermanshirtlarge.jpg

darin

03-27-2012, 12:46 PM

Zimmerman a registered Democrat.

http://freebeacon.com/registered-dem-killed-trayvon/

jimnyc

03-27-2012, 01:26 PM

Zimmerman a registered Democrat.

http://freebeacon.com/registered-dem-killed-trayvon/

Well, this changes things. I suppose he is in fact a thug racist who only killed the young lad because he was black, and eating skittles. Filthy democrat! :laugh2:

Gator Monroe

03-27-2012, 01:47 PM

I'll post for Wind ... " This Forum/Board is over run with Racist Bigoted homophobic sexist fundy Zionist colonialist Imperialist Conservative Leg Humpers who wouldfit right in at Stormfront & ar15.com ...":thumb:

ConHog

03-27-2012, 01:49 PM

I don't know, perhaps 911 operators don't count as LE.

Zimmerman stalked the boy. He initiated the contact. The boy was talking to his GF and was afraid. Zimmerman is a killer, I hope he is arrested and tried for murder.

In fact 911 operators do NOT have a badge or any law enforcement training. They are essentially phone operators. They are not supposed to give ANY legal advice one way or the other. For the obvious reason that doing so could lead their department to being sued. IE operator says "yes , you can shoot the intruder without getting in trouble" and turns out that isn't true, then the city/county whatever is open to a lawsuit.

logroller

03-28-2012, 03:54 AM

One fact I'm really curious about is whether Zimmerman had any pepper spray-- every person I know that carries a sidearm, concealed or not, has pepper spray. I know about 15, 10 LE and 5 citizens-- all carry pepper spray to avoid those situations where lethal force isn't necessary, yet anyways, but need to be able to diffuse a situation without hand to hand combat which could compromise one's weapon retention.

darin

03-28-2012, 04:24 AM

logroller

03-28-2012, 04:58 AM

I haven't met anyone with a CPL/CCW who carries pepper spray, too.

Maybe its a Cali thing; we're progressive like that! :poke: :laugh:

Seriously though, can you understand why one would?

darin

03-28-2012, 05:31 AM

Maybe its a Cali thing; we're progressive like that! :poke: :laugh:

Seriously though, can you understand why one would?

I suppose-so...but close-range, pepper spray hurts the user, too.

logroller

03-28-2012, 05:37 AM

I suppose-so...but close-range, pepper spray hurts the user, too.

Arguably, not as much as getting punched in the face...I've had both. What I was referring to was pepper spray's ability to diffuse a confrontation, whereas drawing a firearm tends to escalate things.

Wind Song

03-28-2012, 09:35 AM

He's within his legal right to carry a gun, so that's a non-issue.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-26/news/os-trayvon-martin-zimmerman-account-20120326_1_miami-schools-punch-unarmed-black-teenager

According to other reports finally coming out Trey was not the innocent college bound youngster he has been portrayed as. He was suspended for 10 days for drug paraphanalia.

It's a shame the boys is dead, but there is nothing racial about this story.

Trey was suspended for having an empty bag that had previously contained pot in it in his locker. Zimmerman may have had a legal right to carry a concealed weapon, I would like to see the charter of the neighborhood watch group he was in. It was unwise for him to carry that gun and to go after people he thought "looked suspicious" based on nothing more than "he was wearing a hoodie".

jimnyc

03-28-2012, 09:44 AM

Trey was suspended for having an empty bag that had previously contained pot in it in his locker. Zimmerman may have had a legal right to carry a concealed weapon, I would like to see the charter of the neighborhood watch group he was in. It was unwise for him to carry that gun and to go after people he thought "looked suspicious" based on nothing more than "he was wearing a hoodie".

The charter won't matter, whether he followed it or not won't make a difference in "legalities" of this case. And he followed him NOT because he was wearing a hoodie but simply because we was looking suspicious in a neighborhood he does not live in, and that's what these guys are supposed to look out for.

Martin shouldn't have attacked a man simply because he was following him. He paid the price for doing so.

jimnyc

03-28-2012, 09:51 AM

The first thing in this whole saga that was illegal, and verified by a witness, was Martin pummeling Z into submission. Wingy Dingy - can you post anything at all that was done illegally by Zimmerman before he was viciously assaulted?

Wind Song

03-28-2012, 10:26 AM

The charter won't matter, whether he followed it or not won't make a difference in "legalities" of this case. And he followed him NOT because he was wearing a hoodie but simply because we was looking suspicious in a neighborhood he does not live in, and that's what these guys are supposed to look out for.

Martin shouldn't have attacked a man simply because he was following him. He paid the price for doing so.

You think he deserved to die for wearing a hoodie? If I was stalked by a Zimmerman type I would be scared. Zimmerman confronted him for what? Breathing and carrying skittles and ice tea and wearing a hoodie.

Zimmerman started the confrontation. He was heard on the 911 tapes that "these assholes get away with it" or (something like that). He was determined to confront this "asshole".
It didn't matter that Trey wasn't doing anything wrong. The kid was probably scared. He didn't deserve to die.

The first thing in this whole saga that was illegal, and verified by a witness, was Martin pummeling Z into submission. Wingy Dingy - can you post anything at all that was done illegally by Zimmerman before he was viciously assaulted?

When you start referring to me by my name I will respond to your posts. I'm done with your ugliness.

logroller

03-28-2012, 10:42 AM

You think he deserved to die for wearing a hoodie? If I was stalked by a Zimmerman type I would be scared. Zimmerman confronted him for what? Breathing and carrying skittles and ice tea and wearing a hoodie.

Zimmerman started the confrontation. He was heard on the 911 tapes that "these assholes get away with it" or (something like that). He was determined to confront this "asshole".
It didn't matter that Trey wasn't doing anything wrong. The kid was probably scared. He didn't deserve to die.

When you start referring to me by my name I will respond to your posts. I'm done with your ugliness.

Don't forget punching a man in the face and bashing his head into the sidewalk. That's a germane piece of the puzzle people seem to overlook in favor of skittles and icetea. WTF do skittles and icetea have to do with it?

I believe it was Martin who spoke first, so who confronted who exactly? FUrthermore, stalking must be a repeated act, by law; I've shown you this-- why do insist on using the term? Perhpas it frames the issue in light that fits your own prejudice...

Wind Song

03-28-2012, 10:48 AM

Don't forget punching a man in the face and bashing his head into the sidewalk. That's a germane piece of the puzzle people seem to overlook in favor of skittles and icetea. WTF do skittles and icetea have to do with it?

I believe it was Martin who spoke first, so who confronted who exactly? FUrthermore, stalking must be a repeated act, by law; I've shown you this-- why do insist on using the term? Perhpas it frames the issue in light that fits your own prejudice...

First of all, Martin told his GF he was being followed by Zimmerman, and she heard the start of the scuffle.

Zimmerman followed Martin in his car and then got out of his car and followed Martin on foot.

logroller

03-28-2012, 10:59 AM

First of all, Martin told his GF he was being followed by Zimmerman, and she heard the start of the scuffle.

Zimmerman followed Martin in his car and then got out of his car and followed Martin on foot.

I know the gf did; I beleive it was Martin that spoke first, did he not? To which Z responded, "What are doing here?" then it cuts, right?

And you contend that this series of events which took place over 10 minutes were separate incidents?

I've seen a sieve hold more water.

darin

03-28-2012, 11:02 AM

What did he attack Zimmerman with? The skittles or the ice tea? Let's be clear on the facts. Zimmerman left his car and chased after Martin after being advised to not follow him.

Zimmerman shot the kid after referring to him as a "f*cking coon".

The boy was followed by Zimmerman, armed with a gun. Zimmerman confronted him and shot him to death.

You think? Where you there? Bottom line kid walking home from store, unarmed is chased and attacked by armed nutjob who has been advised by LE to leave the kid alone.

Zimmerman incited an incident and then shot the kid. He could have just called 911, the cops would have come and let the boy go home alive.

Zimmerman caused the whole thing. He instigated the confrontation which ended in Martin's death. I hope he pays.

The kid was screaming for help.

911 told Zimmerman to not follow or engage the kid.
Zimmerman instigated the whole episode.

Zimmerman was told by LE to stay away from Martin. He didn't. He provoked the event that led to Martins death.

Martin did nothing wrong but defend himself. Zimmerman should be tried for murder.

He was attacked because Zimmerman was following him and freaking him out. Check the phone call from Martin to his girlfriend.

LE told Zimmerman NOT to get out of his car and follow Martin. Zimmerman caused the whole incident including the killing.

I don't know, perhaps 911 operators don't count as LE.

Zimmerman stalked the boy. He initiated the contact. The boy was talking to his GF and was afraid. Zimmerman is a killer, I hope he is arrested and tried for murder.

Both. My GF first.

He didn't deserve to be killed. Zimmerman is no saint. He has a history of violence.

Zimmerman muttered "coon" under his breath. Just because he's a racist, doesn't mean he isn't entitled to a fair trial.

The police have screwed up the investigation from the very beginning.

Zimmerman's history of violence preceded this murder. The GF was on the phone with him and heard the initial scuffle, which was initiated by Zimmerman, Trayvon was on the phone.

Zimmerman should be arrested.

He packed a gun and he stalked Martin.

First of all, Martin told his GF he was being followed by Zimmerman, and she heard the start of the scuffle.

Zimmerman followed Martin in his car and then got out of his car and followed Martin on foot.

Definition of insanity? You're repeating yourself and willfully ignoring evidence suggesting "martin ATTACKED Zimmerman, pummeling him into the ground - not stopping until he was shot"

Wind Song

03-28-2012, 11:03 AM

I know the gf did; I beleive it was Martin that spoke first, did he not? To which Z responded, "What are doing here?" then it cuts, right?

And you contend that this series of events which took place over 10 minutes were separate incidents?

I've seen a sieve hold more water.

I've not "contended" anything about a timeline. I pointed out that the scuffle started while Trey was on the phone with his GF.

At the very least, we have differing witness accounts to consider.

logroller

03-28-2012, 11:24 AM

I've not "contended" anything about a timeline. I pointed out that the scuffle started while Trey was on the phone with his GF.

At the very least, we have differing witness accounts to consider.
Differing accounts is all we have, now. If somebody hadn't leaked Zimmerman's story because many were unwilling to allow the authorities to complete their investigation and let the facts come to light through proper channels-- we'd only have one-sided accounts and conjecture. From what I understand, pending verification of M&Z's injuries, Zimmerman's story fits what witnesses contend. The key pieces are missing from the public purview. Like precisely, who started it, Z says M; but do the injurie support that, we just don't know, but I'm guessing the police do and they chose not to arrest Zimmerman. So unless you KNOW who started the violence, read:violence, not verbal confrontation, then you shouldn't rush to condemn the man; that's all I'm saying.

Wind Song

03-28-2012, 11:29 AM

I know the gf did; I beleive it was Martin that spoke first, did he not? To which Z responded, "What are doing here?" then it cuts, right?

And you contend that this series of events which took place over 10 minutes were separate incidents?

I've seen a sieve hold more water.

The GF claims they were on the phone when Zimmerman approached Trey. Zimmerman initiated the contact.

Where are you getting this ten minutes trip?

Wind Song

03-28-2012, 11:31 AM

Differing accounts is all we have, now. If somebody hadn't leaked Zimmerman's story because many were unwilling to allow the authorities to complete their investigation and let the facts come to light through proper channels-- we'd only have one-sided accounts and conjecture. From what I understand, pending verification of M&Z's injuries, Zimmerman's story fits what witnesses contend. The key pieces are missing from the public purview. Like precisely, who started it, Z says M; but do the injurie support that, we just don't know, but I'm guessing the police do and they chose not to arrest Zimmerman. So unless you KNOW who started the violence, read:violence, not verbal confrontation, then you shouldn't rush to condemn the man; that's all I'm saying.

Whether Trey threw the first punch or not is irrelevant. He was minding his own business talking to his GF when a paranoid Zimmerman approached him.

Zimmerman had already made a remark about "these assholes always get away with stuff". He was cruisin for a bruisin, IMO.

jimnyc

03-28-2012, 11:39 AM

When you start referring to me by my name I will respond to your posts. I'm done with your ugliness.

In other words, you can't prove that Zimmerman broke any law whatsoever, and it CAN be proven that Martin committed assault - so now you'll conveniently ignore posts. Just add that to a shitload of other liberal traits you have shown.

jimnyc

03-28-2012, 11:40 AM

Whether Trey threw the first punch or not is irrelevant. He was minding his own business talking to his GF when a paranoid Zimmerman approached him.

Zimmerman had already made a remark about "these assholes always get away with stuff". He was cruisin for a bruisin, IMO.

It is not. Following someone is not against the law, pummeling someone's head on the sidewalk until they feel the need to defend their life is against the law. The rest is rhetoric which has nothing to do with breaking the law or why Martin felt he needed to resort to violence.

Wind Song

03-28-2012, 11:45 AM

In other words, you can't prove that Zimmerman broke any law whatsoever, and it CAN be proven that Martin committed assault - so now you'll conveniently ignore posts. Just add that to a shitload of other liberal traits you have shown.
Zimmerman killed a boy. You seem to forget that. I will ignore you when you are abusive. You are continuously verbally abusive in your posts.

It weakens your argument.

The Florida Law MAY make Martin's murder legal, but it's not morally right.

Gator Monroe

03-28-2012, 11:46 AM

In cali pepper spray is for Bears not people :lol:

Wind Song

03-28-2012, 11:47 AM

It is not. Following someone is not against the law, pummeling someone's head on the sidewalk until they feel the need to defend their life is against the law. The rest is rhetoric which has nothing to do with breaking the law or why Martin felt he needed to resort to violence.

I wonder if Martin killed Zimmerman whether he would be arrested or not. After all, he was "Standing his ground".

I am very sad that this young boy was murdered and I'm sorry that Zimmerman was assaulted, even though he more or less asked for it.

Zimmerman was unwilling to let LE handle the situation. He was a cowboy and he and Martin both paid for it.

jimnyc

03-28-2012, 11:47 AM

Zimmerman killed a boy. You seem to forget that. I will ignore you when you are abusive. You are continuously verbally abusive in your posts.

It weakens your argument.

The Florida Law MAY make Martin's murder legal, but it's not morally right.

Not a single law was broken by Zimmerman, at least nothing that can be proven by the facts. It CAN be proven that Martin broke the law, based on the facts.

Why do you hate facts so much?

Wind Song

03-28-2012, 11:48 AM

In cali pepper spray is for Bears not people :lol:

Why does a Jew have a Pope avatar?

logroller

03-28-2012, 11:49 AM

The GF claims they were on the phone when Zimmerman approached Trey. Zimmerman initiated the contact.

Where are you getting this ten minutes trip?

Contact isn't violence. If I follow you down the street, approach you and ask what you're doing, you can't punch me in the face for it.
According to the GF's account, Martin asks the first question, and Zimmerman responds with another question, then the phone call ends; now why would the line go dead after a question was asked of Martin. If the phone call ended after Martin asked Z the initial question, then I would tend to believe it was Zimmerman who struck first; but why would Zimmerman ask a question, only to follow with a swing-- it doesn't make a lot of sense-- this all conjecture here; but banter and words matter-- I once helped convict a 16 yr old to Murder one because he used the term 'it', rather than 'that', to describe what he'd done to his mother. 'It' was a preconceived notion we decided.

Nearly always, such encounters are a matter of single digit minutes; just statistical. As for ten min, an over estimate perhaps; 911 calls document time, I'm sure they'd support my estimate or less. How long do you think it took?

jimnyc

03-28-2012, 12:14 PM

The idiot Democrats are now showing their true colors. Speaking out as politicians ON THE FLOOR, before all the facts have even come out in this case, is utterly stupid. These Democrats all have ONE thing in common, I'll let the readers see if they can guess what that is...

Dem Rep.: "Trayvon Was Hunted Down Like A Dog, Shot Down In The Street"

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2012/03/27/dem_congressman_trayvon_was_hunted_down_like_a_dog _shot_down_in_the_street.html

Dem Rep.: Trayvon "Executed" For "Walking While Black In A Gated Community"

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2012/03/27/dem_rep_trayvon_executed_for_walking_while_black_i n_a_gated_community.html

Rep. Maxine Waters: 'Stiff evidence' of hate crime in Trayvon Martin case

http://thehill.com/video/house/218677-rep-waters-stiff-evidence-death-of-trayvon-martin-a-hate-crime-

Dem pulled from House floor for Trayvon hoodie

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=jhmsyGy_MV8

Wind Song

03-28-2012, 12:19 PM

Not a single law was broken by Zimmerman, at least nothing that can be proven by the facts. It CAN be proven that Martin broke the law, based on the facts.

Why do you hate facts so much?

I hate the Stand Your Ground law. I hate it that people like Zimmerman can get away with carrying concealed weapons and follow someone on the street because they look "suspicious" aka "black with a hoodie" and kill a boy who did nothing wrong to begin with. Zimmerman was not willing to just do his neighborhood watch job and call LE. He had to act like a cowboy and consequently he was hurt and Martin was killed.

If you can't see what's wrong with this law, I can't help you. Martin was probably scared to death, and thought his life was over, (which it was).

fj1200

03-28-2012, 12:21 PM

If you can't see what's wrong with this law, I can't help you.

So far you've shown what's wrong with two people and not what's wrong with the law.

jimnyc

03-28-2012, 12:26 PM

I hate the Stand Your Ground law. I hate it that people like Zimmerman can get away with carrying concealed weapons and follow someone on the street because they look "suspicious" aka "black with a hoodie" and kill a boy who did nothing wrong to begin with. Zimmerman was not willing to just do his neighborhood watch job and call LE. He had to act like a cowboy and consequently he was hurt and Martin was killed.

If you can't see what's wrong with this law, I can't help you. Martin was probably scared to death, and thought his life was over, (which it was).

Following and asking a question would be lawful. Pummeling someone's head into the ground is unlawful. While Zimmerman made choices that weren't wise, he broke no laws. Martin DID break the law and was viciously assaulting a man when he was shot. And yet with those FACTS, you blame Z 100% and absolve Martin and claim he was shot for "wearing a hoodie and eating skittles". No, he was shot because the person he was assaulting felt his life was in danger. What happened prior to that, whatever it was, didn't give Martin the right to assault. That's what the facts show thus far. The facts you continually ignore.

logroller

03-28-2012, 12:26 PM

Whether Trey threw the first punch or not is irrelevant. He was minding his own business talking to his GF when a paranoid Zimmerman approached him.

Zimmerman had already made a remark about "these assholes always get away with stuff". He was cruisin for a bruisin, IMO.
Obviously you have absolutely no concept of law and order or the general rules of engagement.

Ive really tried to reason with you, but you're obviously stuck in your ways. Btw Zimmerman was wrong when h said these assholes always get away-- cuz Martin didnt!

jimnyc

03-28-2012, 12:39 PM

Apparently the Nitwit Democrat wearing a hoodie - is an ex Black Panther. I wonder how much this racist is putting up himself for that $$$ bounty.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/28/politics/congressman-hoodie/index.html

Wind Song

03-28-2012, 12:42 PM

So far you've shown what's wrong with two people and not what's wrong with the law.

OK. What's wrong with the law is that it is NOT specific enough to self-defense in one's own home. It is too loose. It allows the likes of a Zimmerman, a guy who could get into LE, to become cowboys paroling the neighborhood, armed and dangerous, looking for an excuse to kill someone.

If Zimmerman had merely done his job, reporting a "suspicious person" and leaving Martin alone, Zimmerman wouldn't have had his head bashed in and Martin would be alive today.

If Zimmerman had retreated, Martin would be in jail and Zimmerman would not be the poster child for vigilantes.

Obviously you have absolutely no concept of law and order or the general rules of engagement.

Ive really tried to reason with you, but you're obviously stuck in your ways. Btw Zimmerman was wrong when h said these assholes always get away-- cuz Martin didnt!

Right. Zimmerman had every intention of killing Martin because he was an "asshole black in a hoodie".

Following and asking a question would be lawful. Pummeling someone's head into the ground is unlawful. While Zimmerman made choices that weren't wise, he broke no laws. Martin DID break the law and was viciously assaulting a man when he was shot. And yet with those FACTS, you blame Z 100% and absolve Martin and claim he was shot for "wearing a hoodie and eating skittles". No, he was shot because the person he was assaulting felt his life was in danger. What happened prior to that, whatever it was, didn't give Martin the right to assault. That's what the facts show thus far. The facts you continually ignore.

Zimmerman told LE that "these assholes always get away". Zimmerman made sure Martin didn't get away. He scared the crap out of Martin so Martin decked him giving Zimmerman an excuse to kill Martin.

Martin did not set out to kill Zimmerman, but Zimmerman decided that Martin was suspicious, and even though advised to not follow Martin, he did so and killed him. He was an active player in setting up the situation which would have been avoided if he listened to the 911 operator and waited for LE.

Had he done that, Martin wouldn't have engaged Zimmerman, and the cops would have talked to Martin, and the kid would be alive today and at home with his family.

fj1200

03-28-2012, 12:49 PM

OK. What's wrong with the law is that it is NOT specific enough to self-defense in one's own home. It is too loose.

That is an opinion. Do you have information that Zimmerman had any working knowledge of HYG? Why does someone have no right to self defense when not in their home?

It allows the likes of a Zimmerman, a guy who could get into LE, to become cowboys paroling the neighborhood, armed and dangerous, looking for an excuse to kill someone.

Oh brother.

Right. Zimmerman had every intention of killing Martin because he was an "asshole black in a hoodie".

ibid.

logroller

03-28-2012, 12:51 PM

Right. Zimmerman had every intention of killing Martin because he was an "asshole black in a hoodie".

If that were his intention, why did he call the police and report an unfamiliar person acting suspiciously...and as it turned out, a violent criminal-- him being black has nothing to do with it. Unless of course, you mean to imply blacks have a predisposition to being violent criminals...but that's racist, certainly you don't mean that, do you?

Wind Song

03-28-2012, 12:51 PM

That is an opinion. Do you have information that Zimmerman had any working knowledge of HYG? Why does someone have no right to self defense when not in their home?

Oh brother.

ibid.

HYG? Are you talking about the Stand Your Ground law? Are you saying he was ignorant of the law? What evidence do you have that he was?

Zimmerman was not in his house, he was not threatened in any way by Martin until he started following Martin and freaking him out.

Zimmerman should be in jail. Yes, that is my opinion.

darin

03-28-2012, 12:55 PM

Wind Song

03-28-2012, 01:03 PM

If that were his intention, why did he call the police and report an unfamiliar person acting suspiciously...and as it turned out, a violent criminal-- him being black has nothing to do with it. Unless of course, you mean to imply blacks have a predisposition to being violent criminals...but that's racist, certainly you don't mean that, do you?

Zimmerman's "acting suspicious" report was pretty damn thin. Read the 911 report. Was Zimmerman describing anything that indicated Martin was a violent criminal?

Martin was not a violent criminal. He was a kid, that got scared after he'd been followed. He expected trouble when he was and confronted by the stranger who'd been following him.

Zimmerman caused the entire incident. He should have just made the report and stayed in his car.

Wind Song

03-28-2012, 01:05 PM

Do you support folks who whoop-ass on people who simply freak them out? That is to say, if I'm 'freaking you out' are you justified in attacking me physically?

I'm not supporting Martin's actions. I think they are completely understandable. Zimmerman should have made the report and stayed back.

If he had done that, he wouldn't have been attacked. Or do you think Martin set out from the convenience store to deck somebody?

fj1200

03-28-2012, 01:05 PM

HYG? Are you talking about the Stand Your Ground law? Are you saying he was ignorant of the law? What evidence do you have that he was?

Zimmerman was not in his house, he was not threatened in any way by Martin until he started following Martin and freaking him out.

Zimmerman should be in jail. Yes, that is my opinion.

Yes SYG, pardon me as a friend on another forum referred to HYG. It's your argument, if he had no knowledge of SYG and what it meant then it's likely that the law is not of issue. The problem is people trying to make policy based on one example with questionable relevance. So IMO your task is two-fold: 1. Prove that SYG was an issue here, and 2. Show how the law creates the situation.

I know he wasn't in his house, he had a CCP didn't he?

logroller

03-28-2012, 01:22 PM

Zimmerman's "acting suspicious" report was pretty damn thin. Read the 911 report. Was Zimmerman describing anything that indicated Martin was a violent criminal?

Martin was not a violent criminal. He was a kid, that got scared after he'd been followed. He expected trouble when he was and confronted by the stranger who'd been following him.

Zimmerman caused the entire incident. He should have just made the report and stayed in his car.

Well, there had been a rash of burglaries as I understand it; and a man walking in the rain looking into houses could appear suspicious. I was once stopped for walking down a public sidewalk and a white man was the suspected robber-- was I racially targeted too; would I have been justified in punching the officer in the face?

I don't see how that matters though; he could have been following him for any number of reasons-- following somebody isn't a crime unless the person you're following has admonished you that it is unwanted; not with a punch in the face, but with words.

Besides, he didn't get shot for acting suspiciously, he was shot while beating Zimmerman-- that's violence, and taking the first swing and beating someone's head into the sidewalk is criminal-- THAT'S when and why he got shot.

You're right about the stand your ground law though; its problematic. Because just as Zimmerman should have stayed in his car, Martin should have ran for his life or called police. That's what reasonable people do when their scared. Only he didn't, even after his GF told him to run, he said, no, I'll just walk fast. Then he confronts Zimmerman, asking what his problem was-- before Zimmerman said shit. You could hear on the 911 tape that Z was winded after 20 seconds. No doubt his short frame and 240 pounds doesn't move too fast; whereas a 6'3" 17 year old could have easily evaded Zimmerman in a foot race. Why didn't he run like his GF told him too? Guess he'd rather stand his ground.

Wind Song

03-28-2012, 01:26 PM

Well, there had been a rash of burglaries as I understand it; and a man walking in the rain looking into houses could appear suspicious. I was once stopped for walking down a public sidewalk and a white man was the suspected robber-- was I racially targeted too; would I have been justified in punching the officer in the face?

I don't see how that matters though; he could have been following him for any number of reasons-- following somebody isn't a crime unless the person you're following has admonished you that it is unwanted; not with a punch in the face, but with words.

Besides, he didn't get shot for acting suspiciously, he was shot while beating Zimmerman-- that's violence, and taking the first swing and beating someone's head into the sidewalk is criminal-- THAT'S when and why he got shot.

You're right about the stand your ground law though; its problematic. Because just as Zimmerman should have stayed in his car, Martin should have ran for his life or called police. That's what reasonable people do when their scared. Only he didn't, even after his GF told him to run, he said, no, I'll just walk fast. Then he confronts Zimmerman, asking what his problem was-- before Zimmerman said shit. You could hear on the 911 tape that Z was winded after 20 seconds. No doubt his short frame and 240 pounds doesn't move too fast; whereas a 6'3" 17 year old could have easily evaded Zimmerman in a foot race. Why didn't he run like his GF told him too? Guess he'd rather stand his ground.

Walking in the rain is suspicious? I do that all the time. Would Zimmerman have followed me or reported me? Unlikely. I'm white and female.

You're right that the kid could have run. He was in "flight or fight". If he'd run, I wonder if Zimmerman would have shot him anyway.

darin

03-28-2012, 01:29 PM

I'm not supporting Martin's actions. I think they are completely understandable. Zimmerman should have made the report and stayed back.

If he had done that, he wouldn't have been attacked. Or do you think Martin set out from the convenience store to deck somebody?

The line i emphasized makes me believe you think Martin's attack was justified. That tells me, if somebody bothers me, WS thinks I'm justified in physically-attacking them. That scares me.

fj1200

03-28-2012, 01:33 PM

I do that all the time.

Why are you looking into houses?

logroller

03-28-2012, 01:51 PM

Walking in the rain is suspicious? I do that all the time. Would Zimmerman have followed me or reported me? Unlikely. I'm white and female.

You're right that the kid could have run. He was in "flight or fight". If he'd run, I wonder if Zimmerman would have shot him anyway.

I'll ignore your racist conjecture... but if he'd shot him while he was running away he'd of been arrested.

Gator Monroe

03-28-2012, 03:07 PM

Why does a Jew have a Pope avatar?

Why is it so trendy for Left leaning folks to have issues with Zionists & Israel these days ?

logroller

03-28-2012, 03:48 PM

Why is it so trendy for Left leaning folks to have issues with Zionists & Israel these days ?
The internet and videogames?

Wind Song

03-28-2012, 04:55 PM

The line i emphasized makes me believe you think Martin's attack was justified. That tells me, if somebody bothers me, WS thinks I'm justified in physically-attacking them. That scares me.

No, it wasn't justified. The premise of the Florida law seems to be that if someone bothers you, (aka threatens you or acts suspicious) you can kill them.

You have no reason to fear me. I'm not a perpetrator or supporter of violence. I'm saying, that this was a 17 year old kid who was in a "fight or flight" state. I wish the kid had run, as his GF advised. He didn't and now he's dead.

I might find you scary. The verdict's not out on you yet.

logroller

03-28-2012, 05:24 PM

No, it wasn't justified. The premise of the Florida law seems to be that if someone bothers you, (aka threatens you or acts suspicious) you can kill them.

You have no reason to fear me. I'm not a perpetrator or supporter of violence. I'm saying, that this was a 17 year old kid who was in a "fight or flight" state. I wish the kid had run, as his GF advised. He didn't and now he's dead.

I might find you scary. The verdict's not out on you yet.
Actually, I think this law harkens back to when carjackings were the top media scare tactic. (now were into nukes and terrorism) But that's what it was intended to address, that if someone tried to forcibly remove you from your car without the use of a weapon, you could shoot them. But you're right on TM, he should have ran, not stood his ground. It's a tragedy which could have been prevented; I just don't see this a social justice issue, merely a social one.

jimnyc

03-28-2012, 06:01 PM

The premise of the Florida law seems to be that if someone bothers you, (aka threatens you or acts suspicious) you can kill them.

Why do you so blatantly lie and exaggerate? The law isn't even remotely close to that. You can't kill anyone for acting suspicious or bothering you. You CAN use a weapon to "stand your ground" should your life potentially be in danger. This is like you stating the kid was killed for no more than eating skittles or wearing a hoodie, which is another leap, as he was killed for pummeling the guy until he felt the need to use force in order to protect himself.

Wind Song

03-28-2012, 07:17 PM

Why do you so blatantly lie and exaggerate? The law isn't even remotely close to that. You can't kill anyone for acting suspicious or bothering you. You CAN use a weapon to "stand your ground" should your life potentially be in danger. This is like you stating the kid was killed for no more than eating skittles or wearing a hoodie, which is another leap, as he was killed for pummeling the guy until he felt the need to use force in order to protect himself.

You don't get my point at all. That's why you resort to calling me a liar. Buzz off.

Missileman

03-28-2012, 07:24 PM

You don't get my point at all. That's why you resort to calling me a liar. Buzz off.

Your statement that :
The premise of the Florida law seems to be that if someone bothers you, (aka threatens you or acts suspicious) you can kill them.
IS a lie...an unintelligent and blatant one.

Pop quiz: What do we call people who tell a lie?

Wind Song

03-28-2012, 09:12 PM

Your statement that : IS a lie...an unintelligent and blatant one.

Pop quiz: What do we call people who tell a lie?

"seems to be".

My statement is: "The premise of the Florida law seems to be that if someone bothers you, (aka threatens you or acts suspicious) you can kill them."

Meaning, that's how I read it. No lie.

It's my opinion. My opinion is not a lie. It's how I see it.

Read more carefully. Consider what I've ACTUALLY said, not your interpretation of what I've said.

Don't call me a liar and expect me to continue to answer your posts.

Missileman

03-28-2012, 09:43 PM

"seems to be".

My statement is: "The premise of the Florida law seems to be that if someone bothers you, (aka threatens you or acts suspicious) you can kill them."

Meaning, that's how I read it. No lie.

It's my opinion. My opinion is not a lie. It's how I see it.

Read more carefully. Consider what I've ACTUALLY said, not your interpretation of what I've said.

Don't call me a liar and expect me to continue to answer your posts.

You seem to be a liar. Consider what I ACTUALLY said.

avatar4321

03-28-2012, 11:59 PM

"seems to be".

My statement is: "The premise of the Florida law seems to be that if someone bothers you, (aka threatens you or acts suspicious) you can kill them."

Meaning, that's how I read it. No lie.

It's my opinion. My opinion is not a lie. It's how I see it.

Read more carefully. Consider what I've ACTUALLY said, not your interpretation of what I've said.

Don't call me a liar and expect me to continue to answer your posts.

If that's your opinion, Im very grateful you aren't a judge.

Wind Song

03-29-2012, 08:51 AM

You seem to be a liar. Consider what I ACTUALLY said.

I'm expressing my opinion. My opinion is not a lie. It is just my opinion. Stop trying to pick a fight.

If that's your opinion, Im very grateful you aren't a judge.

I could say the same about you. The video of Zimmerman coming out of the patrol car shows no evidence of a severe beating or broken nose. The funeral director said there was no bruising or abrasion on Martin's hands that would have indicated he used his hands to beat Zimmerman severely. Zimmerman moves freely. He moves fluidly, not like someone who has just been through a beating in any way, shape or form, someone whose head has been pounded on the pavement as hard as described, someone whose nose was broken and bleeding. The GF's testimony about the cell phone call contradicts Zimmerman's version.
The girl heard Martin say, “Why are you following me?” Another man asked, “What are you doing around here?” That contradicts Zimmermans version.

One witness said this:

"Zimmerman was standing over the body with -- basically straddling the body with his hands on Trayvon's back," Cutcher said. "And it didn't seem to me that he was trying to help him in any way. I didn't hear any struggle prior to the gunshot.
"And I feel like it was Trayvon Martin that was crying out, because the minute that the gunshot went off, the whining stopped."
http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/27/justice/florida-teen-shooting-witnesses/index.html

In The Souls of Black Folk, W.E.B. Du Bois described the experience of being black in America as a constant awareness that others viewed him as a problem. “Between me and the other world there is ever an unasked question…. How does it feel to be a problem?” Travyon Martin was a black kid standing in the wrong place at the wrong time. A black body in public space must presume its own guilt and be prepared to present a rigidly controlled public performance of docility and respectability. The kid wore a hoodie, had his hands in his waistband, had tatoos and gold teeth. He profiled by Zimmerman as a problem.

Zimmerman was acting in ways consistent with the long history and contemporary reality that assumes the criminality and potential danger of black bodies.

jimnyc

03-29-2012, 09:42 AM

I could say the same about you. The video of Zimmerman coming out of the patrol car shows no evidence of a severe beating or broken nose. The funeral director said there was no bruising or abrasion on Martin's hands that would have indicated he used his hands to beat Zimmerman severely. Zimmerman moves freely. He moves fluidly, not like someone who has just been through a beating in any way, shape or form, someone whose head has been pounded on the pavement as hard as described, someone whose nose was broken and bleeding. The GF's testimony about the cell phone call contradicts Zimmerman's version.
The girl heard Martin say, “Why are you following me?” Another man asked, “What are you doing around here?” That contradicts Zimmermans version.

One witness said this:

"Zimmerman was standing over the body with -- basically straddling the body with his hands on Trayvon's back," Cutcher said. "And it didn't seem to me that he was trying to help him in any way. I didn't hear any struggle prior to the gunshot.
"And I feel like it was Trayvon Martin that was crying out, because the minute that the gunshot went off, the whining stopped."
http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/27/justice/florida-teen-shooting-witnesses/index.html

In The Souls of Black Folk, W.E.B. Du Bois described the experience of being black in America as a constant awareness that others viewed him as a problem. “Between me and the other world there is ever an unasked question…. How does it feel to be a problem?” Travyon Martin was a black kid standing in the wrong place at the wrong time. A black body in public space must presume its own guilt and be prepared to present a rigidly controlled public performance of docility and respectability. The kid wore a hoodie, had his hands in his waistband, had tatoos and gold teeth. He profiled by Zimmerman as a problem.

Zimmerman was acting in ways consistent with the long history and contemporary reality that assumes the criminality and potential danger of black bodies.

The video doesn't mean jack shit. Zimmerman was taken care of by paramedics on the scene, so it makes sense that you won't see much on a fairly distant CCTV camera, even though you do see an injury to the back of his head. And your witness can't contradict the witness who actually did see Martin beating Zimmerman, only assumptions. The injuries on scene were consistent with what the witness stated he saw. The funeral director is not a forensic expert. What does the coroner say? We'll have to wait for the grand jury I suppose.

Oh, and pictures a little different than what the media likes to portray. Let's use current photos instead of the older ones when Martin was a lot younger, and not playing a thug yet:

http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/522236_3516808919594_1253116915_3486626_2063552671 _n.jpg

Wind Song

03-29-2012, 09:58 AM

The video doesn't mean jack shit. Zimmerman was taken care of by paramedics on the scene, so it makes sense that you won't see much on a fairly distant CCTV camera, even though you do see an injury to the back of his head. And your witness can't contradict the witness who actually did see Martin beating Zimmerman, only assumptions. The injuries on scene were consistent with what the witness stated he saw. The funeral director is not a forensic expert. What does the coroner say? We'll have to wait for the grand jury I suppose.

Oh, and pictures a little different than what the media likes to portray. Let's use current photos instead of the older ones when Martin was a lot younger, and not playing a thug yet:

http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/522236_3516808919594_1253116915_3486626_2063552671 _n.jpg

The kid had saggy drawyers, which you've said yourself would have been reason enough for YOU to shoot him.

jimnyc

03-29-2012, 10:02 AM

The kid had saggy drawyers, which you've said yourself would have been reason enough for YOU to shoot him.

He was a thug, with gold teeth, saggy pants, "NIGGA" twitter handle, suspensions from school, possession of baggy after he finished marijuana - and now known for attacking a hispanic man and bashing his head into the ground and breaking his nose.

jimnyc

03-29-2012, 10:04 AM

Wind Song

03-29-2012, 10:04 AM

He was a thug, with gold teeth, saggy pants, "NIGGA" twitter handle, suspensions from school, possession of baggy after he finished marijuana - and now known for attacking a hispanic man and bashing his head into the ground and breaking his nose.

In that case, since you deem a high school kid, "a thug", he deserved to be racially profiled, reported as "being suspicious" followed in a car and approached to challenge his right to stand where he was standing.
Zimmerman created his own self fulfilling prophecy. By scaring the kid half to death, questioning the kids right to walk home leisurely from a convenience store while using his cell phone, he became a thug.

You think Martin deserved to die. I dont.

Zimmerman muttered racist slurs under his breath and referred to Martin as "those assholes always get away with stuff". Zimmerman wouldn't take LE advice to not follow Martin but insisted on challenging his right to be on the street. The kid had a hoodie on because it was raining.

I think Zimmerman would have shot and killed Martin if he had started to run away.

Martin was an unarmed child who was doing nothing wrong until he was challenged by Zimmerman to state WHY he dared be in Zimmerman's neighborhood. By calling him an "asshole" it seems he was already angry before even meeting Martin.

I'm not saying Martin was right if he threw the first punch, but I'm saying Zimmerman set up the conditions whereby an innocent high school student is dead, and worse, you think he deserved it.

jimnyc

03-29-2012, 10:10 AM

In that case, since you deem a high school kid, "a thug", he deserved to be racially profiled, reported as "being suspicious" followed in a car and approached to challenge his right to stand where he was standing.

You think Martin deserved to die. I dont.

I see nothing wrong with a neighborhood watch being suspicious of a person looking around a neighborhood he doesn't live in. He wasn't challenged. Even by your own posts it's clear that Zimmerman asked him what he was doing there before a scuffle ensued.

As for WANTING him to die... WHERE did I say that? And you get mad yesterday when a few hint at you being a liar, that's because you lie! I simply think the evidence supports Zimmerman's right to have used force.

Why do you hate facts so much? At what age did you become such a racist against hispanics? Why do you think it's ok that black folks now lynch Zimmerman and cut up his body before any facts even reach a jury? So sad.

Wind Song

03-29-2012, 10:15 AM

I'm surprised there weren't further comments on the politicians acting as judges. Or should I refer to them as BLACK politicians. And a former black panther. Is this the type of scum we want in office?

I see. If anyone DARES to express an opinion opposite to yours and they're BLACK, they're scum. You probably think I'm scum too. I have a different view from you.

I see nothing wrong with a neighborhood watch being suspicious of a person looking around a neighborhood he doesn't live in. He wasn't challenged. Even by your own posts it's clear that Zimmerman asked him what he was doing there before a scuffle ensued.

As for WANTING him to die... WHERE did I say that? And you get mad yesterday when a few hint at you being a liar, that's because you lie! I simply think the evidence supports Zimmerman's right to have used force.

Why do you hate facts so much? At what age did you become such a racist against hispanics? Why do you think it's ok that black folks now lynch Zimmerman and cut up his body before any facts even reach a jury? So sad.

Fact. You stated that you would like to shoot anyone who wears baggy pants.

Fact. Zimmerman had no business asking this kid why he was in the neighborhood. He had a perfect right to walk to and from a convenience store and use his phone.

Fact. LE/911 told him NOT to follow Martin. Zimmerman was too jazzed up to not go looking for a fight.

Fact. Zimmerman is half white and half hispanic and police described him initially as a white man.

Fact. Zimmerman not Martin was armed and dangerous. Zimmerman was a cowboy looking for someone to "make his day". Martin was a kid walking home from a convenience store.

jimnyc

03-29-2012, 10:20 AM

I see. If anyone DARES to express an opinion opposite to yours and they're BLACK, they're scum. You probably think I'm scum too. I have a different view from you.

Are you a politician? On the floor? Dressed in a hoodie? Putting your 2 cents into a case? A case where all the facts haven't been released yet? Or been to ANY court of law? Yes, they are scumbags.

Why do you think it's such a great idea for politicians to speak out in support of cases before all the facts are released? What if 30 conservative politicans hit the floor today wearing solid white t-shirts and repeating fact after fact as to why they think Zimmerman should be left alone?

Fact. You stated that you would like to shoot anyone who wears baggy pants.

Fact. Zimmerman had no business asking this kid why he was in the neighborhood. He had a perfect right to walk to and from a convenience store and use his phone.

Fact. LE/911 told him NOT to follow Martin. Zimmerman was too jazzed up to not go looking for a fight.

Fact. Zimmerman is half white and half hispanic and police described him initially as a white man.

My opinion has nothing to do with this case. Zimmerman had every right to question this kid. 911 implied he need not follow him, but they have no authority. Zimmerman's ethnicity has nothing to do with any of this.

Care to try again, but with facts that matter?

Wind Song

03-29-2012, 10:24 AM

Are you a politician? On the floor? Dressed in a hoodie? Putting your 2 cents into a case? A case where all the facts haven't been released yet? Or been to ANY court of law? Yes, they are scumbags.

Why do you think it's such a great idea for politicians to speak out in support of cases before all the facts are released? What if 30 conservative politicans hit the floor today wearing solid white t-shirts and repeating fact after fact as to why they think Zimmerman should be left alone?

If you think the black community doesn't deserve to have it's elected leaders show solidarity over an obviously racially motivated killing then I think you're mistaken.

You use the "scum" slur quite liberally. I think ANY black who takes Martin's side is scum to you.

My opinion has nothing to do with this case. Zimmerman had every right to question this kid. 911 implied he need not follow him, but they have no authority. Zimmerman's ethnicity has nothing to do with any of this.

Care to try again, but with facts that matter?

If some neighbor questioned my right to be in my own neighborhood, you can bet I'd think that person had no right to question me.

jimnyc

03-29-2012, 10:27 AM

If you think the black community doesn't deserve to have it's elected leaders show solidarity over an obviously racially motivated killing then I think you're mistaken.

I think you're an idiot for making such a leap where the facts don't support it - but NO WAY IN HELL are our elected leaders suppose to weigh in on legal cases that are so raw that all the facts haven't been released yet. They are "tainting the jury" in a matter of speaking. As McChimpy in Chief himself did.

If some neighbor questioned my right to be in my own neighborhood, you can bet I'd think that person had no right to question me.

He wasn't in his own neighborhood, he didn't live there.

Wind Song

03-29-2012, 10:29 AM

My opinion has nothing to do with this case. Zimmerman had every right to question this kid. 911 implied he need not follow him, but they have no authority. Zimmerman's ethnicity has nothing to do with any of this.

Care to try again, but with facts that matter?

Your opinion, (that kids wearing baggy pants should be shot) and black politicians are "scum" and Martin was "scum" has everything to do with your argument.

Let's look at the evidence about you. Martin was "scum" according to you. Confederate flags should be flown to piss off blacks. Black politicians are scum. Kids who wear baggy pants should be shot.

He wasn't in his own neighborhood, he didn't live there.

He lived quite close to the convenience store. He was in his own neighborhood. You don't think he had a right to call that his neighborhood because mostly whites live there. JMO.

jimnyc

03-29-2012, 10:31 AM

Your opinion, (that kids wearing baggy pants should be shot) and black politicians are "scum" and Martin was "scum" has everything to do with your argument.

Blah blah blah blah blah

I'm confident my opinion on these matters have little to do with the LEGAL actions that Zimmerman took, and the ILLEGAL actions witnessed, that Martin likes to beat up Hispanics.

He lived quite close to the convenience store. He was in his own neighborhood. You don't think he had a right to call that his neighborhood because mostly whites live there. JMO.

HE WAS VISITING FAMILY IN THAT NEIGHBORHOOD. He did NOT live there. He was NOT in his own neighborhood. Do you bother to read the facts and learn them?

Wind Song

03-29-2012, 10:38 AM

I think you're an idiot for making such a leap where the facts don't support it - but NO WAY IN HELL are our elected leaders suppose to weigh in on legal cases that are so raw that all the facts haven't been released yet. They are "tainting the jury" in a matter of speaking. As McChimpy in Chief himself did.

Trayvon Martin's parents are in Washington talking to elected leaders as is their right. Those leaders have a right to speak about this issue.

I suppose you think the President is a "thug" too. He's black, uppity and speaks out. All blacks are monkeys to you, aren't they?

logroller

03-29-2012, 10:39 AM

I'm expressing my opinion. My opinion is not a lie. It is just my opinion. Stop trying to pick a fight.
...
In The Souls of Black Folk, W.E.B. Du Bois described the experience of being black in America as a constant awareness that others viewed him as a problem. “Between me and the other world there is ever an unasked question…. How does it feel to be a problem?” Travyon Martin was a black kid standing in the wrong place at the wrong time. A black body in public space must presume its own guilt and be prepared to present a rigidly controlled public performance of docility and respectability. The kid wore a hoodie, had his hands in his waistband, had tatoos and gold teeth. He profiled by Zimmerman as a problem.

Zimmerman was acting in ways consistent with the long history and contemporary reality that assumes the criminality and potential danger of black bodies.

and white people are exempt...:rolleyes:

jimnyc

03-29-2012, 10:40 AM

Trayvon Martin's parents are in Washington talking to elected leaders as is their right. Those leaders have a right to speak about this issue.

I suppose you think the President is a "thug" too. He's black, uppity and speaks out.

ANY elected official who speaks out on a legal case, such a hotbed issue, BEFORE all the facts are released, and before it even hits a courtroom, and tries to sway public opinion in one direction...

Wind Song

03-29-2012, 10:43 AM

and white people are exempt...:rolleyes:

Are they? Exempt from what? Getting called on their racism?

ANY elected official who speaks out on a legal case, such a hotbed issue, BEFORE all the facts are released, and before it even hits a courtroom, and tries to sway public opinion in one direction...

If you think white racist politicians have a right to speak but blacks don't because they're "scum", that's suspect.

jimnyc

03-29-2012, 10:46 AM

He lived quite close to the convenience store. He was in his own neighborhood. You don't think he had a right to call that his neighborhood because mostly whites live there. JMO.

If you can prove that he lived in that neighborhood, I will send you $500. If I can prove that he was only visiting, you send me a mer $5 donation to the board. How's that sound? Let's see how confident you are in the "facts" you like to spread around.

Or would you now like to retract your statement?

If you think white racist politicians have a right to speak but blacks don't because they're "scum", that's suspect.

When did I say that white politicians could but black couldn't? WHEN? WHEN?

I'm tired of you making shit up.

Wind Song

03-29-2012, 10:52 AM

If you can prove that he lived in that neighborhood, I will send you $500. If I can prove that he was only visiting, you send me a mer $5 donation to the board. How's that sound? Let's see how confident you are in the "facts" you like to spread around.

Or would you now like to retract your statement?

If he was visiting, so what? He was still living in the neighborhood, even if only temporarily. He was living with his father. Was he supposed to never go to the store because he was visiting his father?

Are you saying visitors aren't allowed to walk to and from a convenience store? Was Martin an American citizen? Did he deserve to be racially profiled as "suspicious"?

Did he deserve to die for daring to walk to and from a convenience store? That kid was terrified. Both were in fight or flight. Zimmerman had already done what he was supposed to do by calling LE. He should have backed off and let LE handle it.

No, he didn't. Because he was angry, muttering expletives under his breath, and saying "these assholes always get away".

He judged the kid as an asshole and he was determined to "get him". Zimmerman sounds a lot like you. I'm glad you're not armed.
Trayvon Martin to you is just another dead black "thug" lying cold in a morgue. A boy you could give a shit about.

When did I say that white politicians could but black couldn't? WHEN? WHEN?

I'm tired of you making shit up.

Are you complaining about white politicians speaking up on this issue? NO. Only the black "scum".

jimnyc

03-29-2012, 10:55 AM

Are you complaining about white politicians speaking up on this issue? NO. Only the black "scum".

Point me to where the white politicians are doing so, I'll be glad to shoot them down too.

Now please, SHOW ME where I EVER said it was ok for white politicians to speak out and not blacks. YOU made the statement - so please, either back it up or retract it. I'm not going to allow your continued accusations without proof to go unnoticed and unchecked.

If he was visiting, so what? He was still living in the neighborhood, even if only temporarily.

It wasn't where he lived AS YOU STATED PREVIOUSLY. He was visiting. He was an unknown in the neighborhood. It made perfect sense that a neighborhood watch would wonder why someone they don't recognize is walking the neighborhood and looking suspicious.

George Zimmerman's father:

"It's my understanding that Trayvon Martin got on top of him and just started beating him," Robert Zimmerman told WOFL. "Martin said something to the effect of, 'You're going to die now' or 'You're going to die tonight.' He continued to beat George. At some point, George pulled his pistol. Did what he did."

"He was punched in the nose. His nose was broken," the 64-year-old Zimmerman continued. "He was knocked to the concrete. Trayvon Martin got on top of him and just started beating him. In the face. In his nose, hitting his head on the concrete."

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/george-zimmerman-father-trayvon-martin-threatened-kill-son-142231753.html

Wind Song

03-29-2012, 11:06 AM

Point me to where the white politicians are doing so, I'll be glad to shoot them down too.

Now please, SHOW ME where I EVER said it was ok for white politicians to speak out and not blacks. YOU made the statement - so please, either back it up or retract it. I'm not going to allow your continued accusations without proof to go unnoticed and unchecked.

I said you're not criticising white politicians to speak to this issue, only black ones, the "scum".

jimnyc

03-29-2012, 11:08 AM

I said you're not criticising white politicians to speak to this issue, only black ones.

Because white politicians, to the best of my knowledge, haven't done so - unless you can prove otherwise?

Wind Song

03-29-2012, 11:13 AM

Trayvon Martin, a 17-year old black male made the mistake, in your mind, of forgetting that he had no rights which white men (or even Latino white-male-wannabes like George Zimmerman) need respect. No right to go where he pleased, “without molestation,” no right to be treated like a citizen, indeed like a human being. No rights to due process, to peaceably assemble on a public street, to free speech (which he foolishly tried to exercise by asking his pursuer, Zimmerman, why he was following him), to be free from cruel and unusual punishment (such as extra-judicial execution for being black in a hoodie and thus arousing the suspicions of a paranoid negrophobe (http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/17/v-fullstory/2700249/shooter-of-trayvon-martin-a-habitual.html)). No rights at all.

Not even the well-established right to self-defense — the very right Zimmerman would now claim for himself, but which apparently did not extend to the young man whose life he ended.

We hear (whether true or not — it remains to be seen) that Zimmerman had a broken nose and head injuries, that Martin attacked him: never mind that Zimmerman took out after Martin, that Zimmerman accosted Martin and asked him what he was doing in the neighborhood, that, according to witnesses (http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/25/10854229-witness-zimmerman-never-tried-to-help-trayvon-martin), it was Zimmerman who pinned Martin down. We are supposed to feel sorry for the shooter because even in the light most favorable to him, his victim might have actually fought back (http://www.hlntv.com/article/2012/03/23/opinion-trayvon-martin-did-everything-right?hpt=hp_bn13&hpt=hp_bn15)!

Imagine that, fighting back against a total stranger who attacks you. That Martin would still be alive and Zimmerman would never have suffered the indignity of a broken septum, nor the anger of millions aimed in his direction had he just kept his stupid ass in his SUV like the police told him to do apparently matters not. Because, as some wish to remind us, Trayvon Martin had been suspended (http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/03/26/1034516/-Marijuana-use-has-zero-to-do-with-Trayvon-Martin-s-death-Crowd-questions-Sanford-city-commissioners) for school on suspicion of marijuana possession (http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/03/26/1077991/-One-baggie-makes-Trayvon-a-drug-kingpin) (an allegation so weak that he received no citation for the incident); and because Trayvon didn’t have a receipt (http://slumz.boxden.com/f5/mar-23-fox-news-did-trayvon-steal-candy-tea-1724774/) for those Skittles he had in his possession when he was murdered (as if any 17 year old asks for a receipt when they purchase candy like they were going to need it for an expense report); and because Trayvon posed like a gangster on Facebook. Oh no, sorry, wrong Trayvon (http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/03/25/1077684/-Racist-False-Travon-Facebook-picture-being-circulated), but racists are like the Honey Badger–they don’t give a shit.
The active and putrescent campaign (http://www.salon.com/2012/03/26/dishonoring_trayvon_martin/singleton/) of defamation now in full swing against this dead child is a reminder of just how little black life matters to some. No matter the facts, their deaths are always justified.
These are the ideological soul mates of those who insisted Emmett Till (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmett_Till) really did say “Bye Baby” to that white woman, as if such an offense could even theoretically justify shooting him, tying a cotton gin fan to his neck with barbed wire, and tossing him in the Tallahatchie River.
No rights which the white man is bound to respect.

Black people still have no rights which the white man is bound to respect.

http://www.timwise.org/2012/03/trayvon-martin-white-america-and-the-return-of-dred-scott/

jimnyc

03-29-2012, 11:19 AM

(such as extra-judicial execution for being black in a hoodie and thus arousing the suspicions of a paranoid negrophobe (http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/17/v-fullstory/2700249/shooter-of-trayvon-martin-a-habitual.html)). No rights at all.

WTF? That's the WORST op-ed I have ever read in my life. Paranoid negrophobe? Execution?

Wind Song - what did Hispanic people do to you growing up to make you hate them so much? Were you perhaps battered by one, and that turned you against them? Why do you think all Hispanics should be rounded up and forced to live in a certain area, away from others?

Point me to where the white politicians are doing so, I'll be glad to shoot them down too.

Now please, SHOW ME where I EVER said it was ok for white politicians to speak out and not blacks. YOU made the statement - so please, either back it up or retract it. I'm not going to allow your continued accusations without proof to go unnoticed and unchecked.

Because white politicians, to the best of my knowledge, haven't done so - unless you can prove otherwise?

????

Wind Song

03-29-2012, 11:23 AM

WTF? That's the WORST op-ed I have ever read in my life. Paranoid negrophobe? Execution?

Wind Song - what did Hispanic people do to you growing up to make you hate them so much? Were you perhaps battered by one, and that turned you against them? Why do you think all Hispanics should be rounded up and forced to live in a certain area, away from others?

Of course you would say that about Tim Wise, the author of the article I linked and quoted, a white man who has spoken out about racism his whole life.

????

Please show me where you have ever referred to a white conservative politician as "scum".

jimnyc

03-29-2012, 11:25 AM

Of course you would say that about Tim Wise, the author of the article I linked and quoted, a white man who has spoken out about racism his whole life.

I don't care if he was purple or green. Talking about "execution" an a "negrophobe" makes him a fucking fool.

Wind Song

03-29-2012, 11:25 AM

Because white politicians, to the best of my knowledge, haven't done so - unless you can prove otherwise?

Democrats have. Many of them are white.

jimnyc

03-29-2012, 11:27 AM

Please show me where you have ever referred to a white conservative politician as "scum".

So you're going to play a little game instead of reatrcting? We're talking about this case directly, and politicians who have spoken out about it. I spoke directly of politicians, who are black, who made statements. You asked why I allow whites to do it but condemn blacks. I stated I don't know of any whites that spoke out as politicians, but you could post them and I would. I also asked you to backup your statements about me claiming such.

Are you going to retract this garbage or continue to play your little baby games in this thread?

Wind Song

03-29-2012, 11:27 AM

I don't care if he was purple or green. Talking about "execution" an a "negrophobe" makes him a fucking fool.

Zimmerman executed Martin for the crime of daring to walk home from a convenience store in Zimmerman's neighborhood. Zimmerman muttered expletives and slurs under his breath and said "these assholes always get away" on the 9/11 call. He was determined to not let Martin get away with his life. He ignored the advice of the 911 operator and challenged Martin's right to stand on a public street in Zimmerman's neighborhood.

jimnyc

03-29-2012, 11:28 AM

Democrats have. Many of them are white.

Then please post their commenst/videos here for all of us. And backup the statements you claimed I made...

Zimmerman executed Martin for the crime of daring to walk home from a convenience store in Zimmerman's neighborhood. Zimmerman muttered expletives and slurs under his breath and said "these assholes always get away". He was determined to not let Martin get away with his life. He ignored the advice of the 911 operator and challenged Martin's right to stand on a public street in Zimmerman's neighborhood.

Is this all you can do, parrot the same shit over and over and over....?

How about backing up the comments you claimed I made. Do so, or retract them, your choice.

Wind Song

03-29-2012, 11:29 AM

So you're going to play a little game instead of reatrcting? We're talking about this case directly, and politicians who have spoken out about it. I spoke directly of politicians, who are black, who made statements. You asked why I allow whites to do it but condemn blacks. I stated I don't know of any whites that spoke out as politicians, but you could post them and I would. I also asked you to backup your statements about me claiming such.

Are you going to retract this garbage or continue to play your little baby games in this thread?

White politicians also spoke out, but you didn't call them scum. I suspect since they were supportive of the Martin family you'd call them scum too.

jimnyc

03-29-2012, 11:30 AM

Zimmerman executed Martin for the crime of daring to walk home from a convenience store in Zimmerman's neighborhood.

Do you understand what an execution is?

Backup the comments you claim I made, or retract them...

White politicians also spoke out, but you didn't call them scum. I suspect since they were supportive of the Martin family you'd call them scum too.

Post them... And you said white democrats did too - post them.

Wind Song

03-29-2012, 11:30 AM

Is this all you can do, parrot the same shit over and over and over....?

How about backing up the comments you claimed I made. Do so, or retract them, your choice.
I've been posting lots of different stuff that support my view, not parroting the same thing over and over. You're not listening.

Am I suprised? No.

Post them... And you said white democrats did too - post them.

Do some reading Jim. Especially the stories about the Martin family speaking to Congress. Notice that not one GOP candidate had enough respect for this one black family to show up that day.

White democrats also spoke. I'm not doing all your work for you.

jimnyc

03-29-2012, 11:33 AM

Do some reading Jim. Especially the stories about the Martin family speaking to Congress. Notice that not one GOP candidate had enough respect for this one black family to show up that day.

White democrats also spoke. I'm not doing all your work for you.

So you're not going to post the specific white politicians so that I can condemn them too? And you're not going to backup the comments you made about me?

I've asked the loony fucking Wing Nut to back her comments about me directly. She refuses. I asked her to backup her comments about white politicians. She refuses. I ask her to backup comments about "facts" she states about this case, and she tells me to "do your own homework".

WS seems to be a pathological liar. Who ever engages her in a "debate" should be aware of her debating techniques, which is basically to lie aka make shit up and to vilify the person she is debating with, and then run like hell when questioned and asked to backup certain statements.

Emotionally unstable Wing Nut.

Wind Song

03-29-2012, 11:58 AM

So you're not going to post the specific white politicians so that I can condemn them too? And you're not going to backup the comments you made about me?

I jumped the gun, and I'm sorry. I didn't know that you would have condemned the white politicians that had an opinion on the Martin slaying.

I will make more of an effort to give some evidence before I make another statement about your position.

I've asked the loony fucking Wing Nut to back her comments about me directly. She refuses. I asked her to backup her comments about white politicians. She refuses. I ask her to backup comments about "facts" she states about this case, and she tells me to "do your own homework".

WS seems to be a pathological liar. Who ever engages her in a "debate" should be aware of her debating techniques, which is basically to lie aka make shit up and to vilify the person she is debating with, and then run like hell when questioned and asked to backup certain statements.

Emotionally unstable Wing Nut.

I publically apologized to you and my reward for that is a bunch of name calling from you and threats to ban me.

Eyewitness accounts of this incident vary, with some saying Martin tried to escape and others saying Martin attacked Zimmerman.

In the end, Zimmerman was seen standing over Martin's dead body with pistol in hand. Zimmerman had a bloody nose and a wound in the back of his head; Martin had a single gunshot wound in his chest. Martin was unarmed.

Sanford Police have turned over their evidence to local prosecutors for them to decide whether Zimmerman should be charged. The Justice Department and FBI have opened a civil rights investigation. Several members of Congress have called for the case to be investigated as a hate crime.

logroller

03-29-2012, 12:25 PM

If some neighbor questioned my right to be in my own neighborhood, you can bet I'd think that person had no right to question me.

Uh, yea they do--Free speech. Of course, you have the right to walk away. What you don't have the right to do is punch them in face and bash their head into the ground; that's aggravated assault, a violent felony, which can be justifiably met with force. But that's just legal mumbojumbo, don't let that interfere with your emotions. Clearly that's way more important to you; just as emotions were important to Zimmerman and Martin-- and that worked out well, didn't it?

Trayvon Martin's parents are in Washington talking to elected leaders as is their right. Those leaders have a right to speak about this issue.

"Those leaders", you mean legislative officials? Here I was thinking that legislative officials have a duty to respect the executive and judicial branches' authority to perform their prescribed duties...duties which are legislated. Silly me; I forgot laws only matter when it suits one's fancy.:rolleyes:

Are they? Exempt from what? Getting called on their racism?

Exempt from behaving with a modicum of respect for others. I guess if you have a chip on your shoulder whitey needs to kowtow and allow you to fulfill the dreams of the thuglife. Nevermind the guy was hispanic, and actually looks hispanic; anybody who asks a black guy a question to assuage suspicion is a white racist!... White/ racist..what's the difference? Its the man who's holding back the minority; always has been, always will be-- "Pussy-ass cracker betta recognize! I got rights, right to stomp your cracker ass into the pavement." MLK is rolling in his grave.

jimnyc

03-29-2012, 12:29 PM

I jumped the gun, and I'm sorry. I didn't know that you would have condemned the white politicians that had an opinion on the Martin slaying.

I will make more of an effort to give some evidence before I make another statement about your position.

Thank you

I publically apologized to you and my reward for that is a bunch of name calling from you and threats to ban me.

Obviously, my post was long, long before you finally retracted your statements.

Wind Song

03-29-2012, 12:45 PM

Uh, yea they do--Free speech. Of course, you have the right to walk away. What you don't have the right to do is punch them in face and bash their head into the ground; that's aggravated assault, a violent felony, which can be justifiably met with force. But that's just legal mumbojumbo, don't let that interfere with your emotions. Clearly that's way more important to you; just as emotions were important to Zimmerman and Martin-- and that worked out well, didn't it?

"Those leaders", you mean legislative officials? Here I was thinking that legislative officials have a duty to respect the executive and judicial branches' authority to perform their prescribed duties...duties which are legislated. Silly me; I forgot laws only matter when it suits one's fancy.:rolleyes:

Exempt from behaving with a modicum of respect for others. I guess if you have a chip on your shoulder whitey needs to kowtow and allow you to fulfill the dreams of the thuglife. Nevermind the guy was hispanic, and actually looks hispanic; anybody who asks a black guy a question to assuage suspicion is a white racist!... White/ racist..what's the difference? Its the man who's holding back the minority; always has been, always will be-- "Pussy-ass cracker betta recognize! I got rights, right to stomp your cracker ass into the pavement." MLK is rolling in his grave.

Excuse me. Are you the same guy that calls President Obama a monkey? Are you the same guy that says black politicians who speak about the law in Florida are "scum". Should legislators weigh in on law?

You weren't there and neighter was I. Eye witness accounts vary all the way from Zimmerman was the aggressor to Martin was the aggressor.

If you examine the 911 call you see that Zimmerman misstated Martin's behavior as "suspicious" and claimed he was on drugs, wearing a hoodie, looking through windows.

Martin was walking home from a convenience store, wearing a hoodie because it was raining and talking to his GF on his cell phone. The GF's account of the phone call was that Zimmerman approached Martin, not the other way around.

If Zimmerman had a chip on his shoulder, he damn sure shouldn't have been armed, and "looking for those assholes who always get away".

logroller

03-29-2012, 12:45 PM

I publically apologized to you and my reward for that is a bunch of name calling from you and threats to ban me.

Eyewitness accounts of this incident vary, with some saying Martin tried to escape and others saying Martin attacked Zimmerman.

In the end, Zimmerman was seen standing over Martin's dead body with pistol in hand. Zimmerman had a bloody nose and a wound in the back of his head; Martin had a single gunshot wound in his chest. Martin was unarmed.

Sanford Police have turned over their evidence to local prosecutors for them to decide whether Zimmerman should be charged. The Justice Department and FBI have opened a civil rights investigation. Several members of Congress have called for the case to be investigated as a hate crime.
In the beginning, we're all born; in the end, we're all dead! But there's quite a bit in between. I think you focus only on those facts which support your preconceived notions. I'm not saying Zimmerman is innocent; but he's yet to be proven guilty, or even charged. So don't you think its a bit premature to draw conclusions as to motive of an alleged crime which has yet to be filed, let alone proven? As for Congress, they make laws, not enforce them! Of course, they're entitled to their twocents; I'd just like to see that in the non-existent budget bill they're legally bound to provide? Nah, let's shed a tear for a child, cuz he'll never be able to shoulder the burden of an ever-growing national debt. SMOKE AND MIRRORS!

jimnyc

03-29-2012, 12:48 PM

Excuse me. Are you the same guy that calls President Obama a monkey? Are you the same guy that says black politicians who speak about the law in Florida are "scum". Should legislators weigh in on law?

That was me, not logroller.

Legislators should weigh in on law, of course, but not ongoing criminal cases that haven't reached the courts yet and all facts have not been released. I wonder why it's only the black politicians speaking out and claling this a racial issue?

Wind Song

03-29-2012, 12:49 PM

In the beginning, we're all born; in the end, we're all dead! But there's quite a bit in between. I think you focus only on those facts which support your preconceived notions. I'm not saying Zimmerman is innocent; but he's yet to be proven guilty, or even charged. So don't you think its a bit premature to draw conclusions as to motive of an alleged crime which has yet to be filed, let alone proven? As for Congress, they make laws, not enforce them! Of course, they're entitled to their twocents; I'd just like to see that in the non-existent budget bill they're legally bound to provide? Nah, let's shed a tear for a child, cuz he'll never be able to shoulder the burden of an ever-growing national debt. SMOKE AND MIRRORS!

I'm debating from one point of view. Of course, I use facts which support my view in my argument. I don't know Zimmerman's motive, but I know what he said and what he did. He said, "these assholes always get away". He said Martin must be on drugs, which was a lie. He had very little report of EXACTLY what was so suspicious other than being black, (did he mutter "f-ckin coon" under his breath?) wearing a hoodie, and being on a sidewalk in Zimmerman's neighborhood.

logroller

03-29-2012, 12:59 PM

Excuse me. Are you the same guy that calls President Obama a monkey? Are you the same guy that says black politicians who speak about the law in Florida are "scum". Should legislators weigh in on law?

You weren't there and neighter was I. Eye witness accounts vary all the way from Zimmerman was the aggressor to Martin was the aggressor.

If you examine the 911 call you see that Zimmerman misstated Martin's behavior as "suspicious" and claimed he was on drugs, wearing a hoodie, looking through windows.

Martin was walking home from a convenience store, wearing a hoodie because it was raining and talking to his GF on his cell phone. The GF's account of the phone call was that Zimmerman approached Martin, not the other way around.

If Zimmerman had a chip on his shoulder, he damn sure shouldn't have been armed, and "looking for those assholes who always get away".
Did you fart or something? You're excused. I never said any of that. WTF are talking about?

I wasn't there, nor have I talked with any of the eyewitnesses, nor seen pictures of the scene, really I don't know shit but hearsay--- are you any different?
Did you see him walking home? Did you see his hoody? Have you examined the body? Seen Zimmerman's wounds or condition immediately following the shooting? Do you, personally, have any first hand evidence of what transpired that evening?

NO, you don't. So if you're able to speak to these "facts", so can I! Repeatedly, you've used parroted terms and "facts" which have been shown to be completely unsupported. I didn't go so far as to call you a liar; because I think you actually believe what you're saying-- you're just ignorant.

Have you ever been robbed? Had your house pilfered? I have, three times. And you know what...they got away, they usually do.

Wind Song

03-29-2012, 01:02 PM

That was me, not logroller.

Legislators should weigh in on law, of course, but not ongoing criminal cases that haven't reached the courts yet and all facts have not been released. I wonder why it's only the black politicians speaking out and claling this a racial issue?

It is not only black congressmen and senators speaking about about this Florida laws problems. Why is it NO GOP congressmen, not ONE, gave the Martin family enough respect to show up and listen to their concerns?

It leaves me to believe they don't care about the Martin family. You probably have some creative excuse to give them.

And you wonder why black people overwhelmingly vote for democrats. Who is listening to them when they have concerns about justice?

http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by jimnyc http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?p=535161#post535161)
I've asked the loony fucking Wing Nut to back her comments about me directly. She refuses. I asked her to backup her comments about white politicians. She refuses. I ask her to backup comments about "facts" she states about this case, and she tells me to "do your own homework".

WS seems to be a pathological liar. Who ever engages her in a "debate" should be aware of her debating techniques, which is basically to lie aka make shit up and to vilify the person she is debating with, and then run like hell when questioned and asked to backup certain statements.

Emotionally unstable Wing Nut.

jimnyc

03-29-2012, 01:08 PM

It is not only black congressmen and senators speaking about about this Florida laws problems. Why is it NO GOP congressmen, not ONE, gave the Martin family enough respect to show up and listen to their concerns?

It leaves me to believe they don't care about the Martin family. You probably have some creative excuse to give them.

And you wonder why black people overwhelmingly vote for democrats. Who is listening to them when they have concerns about justice?

The black politicians were speaking of the incident, not the law. And please, can you post links to show where the white politicians are doing the same as them? You've made this claim repeatedly but I don't think I saw a link yet.

John Boehner spoke out, in an APPROPRIATE manner:

House Speaker John Boehner (R-Ohio), asked about the incident, said: "Our hearts go out to his family over this tragedy. And clearly, what happened is in fact a tragedy. It's being investigated by state and federal officials, which I think is appropriate. And I think I'll leave it at that.

As for no GOP being there... The Martin family came solely to speak to the House Judiciary Committee - are you telling me that ONLY Democrats make up this committee?

http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by jimnyc http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?p=535161#post535161)
I've asked the loony fucking Wing Nut to back her comments about me directly. She refuses. I asked her to backup her comments about white politicians. She refuses. I ask her to backup comments about "facts" she states about this case, and she tells me to "do your own homework".

WS seems to be a pathological liar. Who ever engages her in a "debate" should be aware of her debating techniques, which is basically to lie aka make shit up and to vilify the person she is debating with, and then run like hell when questioned and asked to backup certain statements.

Emotionally unstable Wing Nut.

This post was made at 12:52
You retraction was posted at 12:58

You are going over and over that I continued to call you names after you made your retraction. This was 100% made up. I even thanked you for your retraction.

Why is it NO GOP congressmen, not ONE, gave the Martin family enough respect to show up and listen to their concerns?

Lamar Smith was there.
Jim Sensenbrenner was there.
Howard Coble was there.
Elton Gallegly was there.
Bob Goodlatte was there.
Dan Lungren
....

I'll save everyone the time on the rest of the list. Suffice to say, a very minimum of 23 GOP congressmen/women showed up.

Wind Song

03-29-2012, 01:16 PM

The black politicians were speaking of the incident, not the law. And please, can you post links to show where the white politicians are doing the same as them? You've made this claim repeatedly but I don't think I saw a link yet.

John Boehner spoke out, in an APPROPRIATE manner:

As for no GOP being there... The Martin family came solely to speak to the House Judiciary Committee - are you telling me that ONLY Democrats make up this committee?

Not ONE GOP congressman was there to listen to the Martin family. Here's what I'm learning Jim. I read fast and then I don't write the link down. I read that NOT ONE GOP was present to listen to the Martin's.

jimnyc

03-29-2012, 01:17 PM

Not ONE GOP congressman was there to listen to the Martin family.

23 at the very minimum. You need to get your facts straight.

Wind Song

03-29-2012, 01:30 PM

23 at the very minimum. You need to get your facts straight.

What I need to do, is compulsively post a link after I've referred to something I've read. Thank you for helping me be a better poster.

I used to do that, at another forum, and I got so sick of people saying it wasn't true because the source wasn't Fox, WND, or some other con blog. The other thing that used to happen, was I'd put a TON of links in, and no one would read them. No excuse.

My bad habit. I'll work on it.

darin

03-29-2012, 01:34 PM

My browser hiccuped - I think I may have jacked up the post below, combining posts by two users. Sorry guys. :(

The black politicians were speaking of the incident, not the law. And please, can you post links to show where the white politicians are doing the same as them? You've made this claim repeatedly but I don't think I saw a link yet.

John Boehner spoke out, in an APPROPRIATE manner:

As for no GOP being there... The Martin family came solely to speak to the House Judiciary Committee - are you telling me that ONLY Democrats make up this committee?

This post was made at 12:52
You retraction was posted at 12:58

You are going over and over that I continued to call you names after you made your retraction. This was 100% made up. I even thanked you for your retraction.

Lamar Smith was there.
Jim Sensenbrenner was there.
Howard Coble was there.
Elton Gallegly was there.
Bob Goodlatte was there.
Dan Lungren
....

I'll save everyone the time on the rest of the list. Suffice to say, a very minimum of 23 GOP congressmen/women showed up.

Wind Song

03-29-2012, 01:39 PM

logroller

03-29-2012, 02:56 PM

Since "Stand Your ground was enacted in Florida, the number of Florida cases found to be justifiable homicide has nearly tripled from an average 12 a year to 33.

STATE SEN. OSCAR BRAYNON: I think we may be getting some unintended consequences.

In Miami a judge dismissed murder charges against a man who chased a suspected burglar for more than a block before catching him and stabbing him to death. Greg Allen, NPR News, Miami.
http://www.npr.org/2012/03/23/149204405/stand-your-ground-law-questioned-after-teens-death

What does that case have to do with Zimmerman/Martin?

Many legal experts claim the "stand your ground" law has no bearing on the Martin/Zimmerman case. That its either self-defense or murder-- not that Zimmerman is immune to prosecution.

In sum: there is not a shred of support for the claim that Florida law protects, or has protected Zimmerman, if he unlawfully attacked Martin. If Zimmerman’s story is true (Martin attacked him, putting him in imminent peril of grave bodily injury, with no opportunity to retreat), then Zimmerman’s self-defense claim would be valid under the laws of Florida, New York, or any other Anglo-American jurisdiction. The particular legal changes resulting from Florida’s “Stand Your Ground” and “Castle Doctrine” laws (deadly force in the home/automobile; no duty to retreat in public places; Fourth Amendment arrest standard affirmation; protection from civil suits) simply have nothing to do with whether Zimmerman’s actions were or were not lawful.http://www.opposingviews.com/i/politics/florida%E2%80%99s-self-defense-laws

Wind Song

03-29-2012, 03:00 PM

What does that case have to do with Zimmerman/Martin?

Many legal experts claim the "stand your ground" law has no bearing on the Martin/Zimmerman case. That its either self-defense or murder-- not that Zimmerman is immune to prosecution.
http://www.opposingviews.com/i/politics/florida%E2%80%99s-self-defense-laws

The Stand Your Ground law has alot to do with this case. It has so far, provided Zimmerman with immunity from prosecution.

logroller

03-29-2012, 03:26 PM

The Stand Your Ground law has alot to do with this case. It has so far, provided Zimmerman with immunity from prosecution.

Immunity from prosecution under the stand your ground law is decided by a judge; once decided it is binding. There is no quasi-immunity leading up to it. If he were indeed immune, there would be no grounds for a grand jury investigation. At the time of his release, they lacked enough evidence contradicting a self defense claim, thus they lack probable cause. That may change, but that is not immunity.

Wind Song

03-29-2012, 03:30 PM

Immunity from prosecution under the stand your ground law is decided by a judge; once decided it is binding. There is no quasi-immunity leading up to it. If he were indeed immune, there would be no grounds for a grand jury investigation. At the time of his release, they lacked enough evidence contradicting a self defense claim, thus they lack probable cause. That may change, but that is not immunity.

Thanks for the clarification.

fj1200

03-29-2012, 03:38 PM

Since "Stand Your ground was enacted in Florida, the number of Florida cases found to be justifiable homicide has nearly tripled from an average 12 a year to 33.

STATE SEN. OSCAR BRAYNON: I think we may be getting some unintended consequences.

In Miami a judge dismissed murder charges against a man who chased a suspected burglar for more than a block before catching him and stabbing him to death. Greg Allen, NPR News, Miami.
http://www.npr.org/2012/03/23/149204405/stand-your-ground-law-questioned-after-teens-death

Per usual, you portray it in the worst possible light. The "suspected burglar" swung at Garcia at which point Garcia responded.

But in Greyston Garcia's case, a judge disagreed. Garcia chased the alleged car-radio thief -- Pedro Roteta, 26 -- for more than a block, the Herald reports. Roteta, carrying a four-pound bag of car radios, swung the bag at Garcia's head; Garcia blocked the bag with one hand and stabbed Roteta in the chest.
Roteta's swinging of the bag could have caused serious bodily injury or death, and placed Garcia in fear for his life, the judge wrote.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/03/29/tagblogsfindlawcom2012-blotter-idUS416295476820120329

Not that he's going to be nominated for sainthood on this of course.

Wind Song

03-29-2012, 03:39 PM

Per usual, you portray it in the worst possible light. The "suspected burglar" swung at Garcia at which point Garcia responded.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/03/29/tagblogsfindlawcom2012-blotter-idUS416295476820120329

Not that he's going to be nominated for sainthood on this of course.

So, you think he had a right to chase and stab the suspect to death?

fj1200

03-29-2012, 03:43 PM

So, you think he had a right to chase and stab the suspect to death?

:facepalm99: You ask such ridiculous questions. He had a right to chase the suspected burglar and defend himself.

Wind Song

03-29-2012, 03:52 PM

:facepalm99: You ask such ridiculous questions. He had a right to chase the suspected burglar and defend himself.

When he chased the burglar he ceased to be defending himself, and became an aggressor. He got away with executing the suspect by stabbing him to death.

If you think that's AOK. Fine. I don't. LE couldn't have arrested the burglar and justice instead of vengeance would have been served.

This literally meets the definition of vigilantism: taking the law into your own hands.

tailfins

03-29-2012, 03:56 PM

logroller

03-29-2012, 04:29 PM

When he chased the burglar he ceased to be defending himself, and became an aggressor. He got away with executing the suspect by stabbing him to death.

If you think that's AOK. Fine. I don't. LE couldn't have arrested the burglar and justice instead of vengeance would have been served.

This literally meets the definition of vigilantism: taking the law into your own hands.
It was legal for him to chase the guy who stole his radio. If LE were on scene I'd agree, he should have stood down. But the fact of the matter is, unless you know who it is, the odds of law enforcement catching a burglary suspect, let alone recovering your property, are slim to none. So you think burglars should be allowed to just break into your car, or steal your purse off your shoulder and once they walk away you have no recourse beyond filing a police report. Let me tell you something, those goods have long since been fenced for drugs before the report is even filed. What percentage of property crimes do you think result in a conviction? Truth is, cops just file reports for your insurance, there's no investigation. They just go about their patrol, showing up in 20 minutes to an hour; some cases longer(my sister waited 16 hours) . Forgive me if I find that an unacceptable level of law and order. Hey, maybe I could call my congressman and have them pass a law which allows me to chase them and try and get my stuff back, and when they try to injure me, I can meet them with force.....oh wait, many states already did that. :clap:

Wind Song

03-29-2012, 04:37 PM

It was legal for him to chase the guy who stole his radio. If LE were on scene I'd agree, he should have stood down. But the fact of the matter is, unless you know who it is, the odds of law enforcement catching a burglary suspect, let alone recovering your property, are slim to none. So you think burglars should be allowed to just break into your car, or steal your purse off your shoulder and once they walk away you have no recourse beyond filing a police report. Let me tell you something, those goods have long since been fenced for drugs before the report is even filed. What percentage of property crimes do you think result in a conviction? Truth is, cops just file reports for your insurance, there's no investigation. They just go about their patrol, showing up in 20 minutes to an hour; some cases longer(my sister waited 16 hours) . Forgive me if I find that an unacceptable level of law and order. Hey, maybe I could call my congressman and have them pass a law which allows me to chase them and try and get my stuff back, and when they try to injure me, I can meet them with force.....oh wait, many states already did that. :clap:

It was apparently also legal for the guy to stab the suspect to death after chasing him. I find that shocking. I don't ascribe to vigilante justice.

Trigg

03-29-2012, 04:46 PM

When he chased the burglar he ceased to be defending himself, and became an aggressor. He got away with executing the suspect by stabbing him to death.

If you think that's AOK. Fine. I don't. LE couldn't have arrested the burglar and justice instead of vengeance would have been served.

This literally meets the definition of vigilantism: taking the law into your own hands.

So If you chase a person in order to get your STOLEN property back you are the agressor :lame2: that makes no freaking sense what so ever.

Now, I'm sorry the criminal was stabbed and killed. But, it isn't like he was a choir boy spending his late nights studying for college. He was a Thief.

IMHO the man had every right to chase the thief down and try to get his stuff. He also had every right to defend himself when said thief decided to swing at him.

It was apparently also legal for the guy to stab the suspect to death after chasing him. I find that shocking. I don't ascribe to vigilante justice.

If someone takes a swing at you, you have every right to defend yourself. That isn't vigilante justice, since the violence first came from the thief. The thief could have handed the STOLEN PROPERTY back to the rightful owner. He made a fateful decision when he decided to swing at the man.

I hope you are never in a situation where a person is beating the hell out of you and (you being a liberal and all) have to lay there and take it since you don't believe in defending yourself.

Wind Song

03-29-2012, 04:49 PM

So If you chase a person in order to get your STOLEN property back you are the agressor :lame2: that makes no freaking sense what so ever.

Now, I'm sorry the criminal was stabbed and killed. But, it isn't like he was a choir boy spending his late nights studying for college. He was a Thief.

IMHO the man had every right to chase the thief down and try to get his stuff. He also had every right to defend himself when said thief decided to swing at him.

Apparently, the law supports this man in stabbing the suspect to death. I don't. This is vigilantism. Taking the law into your own hands.

Executing someone without trial or due process. Very dangerous precipice we're on.

logroller

03-29-2012, 04:52 PM

It was apparently also legal for the guy to stab the suspect to death after chasing him. I find that shocking. I don't ascribe to vigilante justice.
Here's a story. A guy breaks into a house and empties out the laundry bag and fills it with loot. Man comes home to find his house being looted and surprises the burgler. The thief swings his bag of loot at the guy, but the guy ducks then hits the thief, knocking him down the porch stairs, killing him. I say justified, windsong says "man murders another for doing his laundry". :laugh:

Trigg

03-29-2012, 04:54 PM

Apparently, the law supports this man in stabbing the suspect to death. I don't. This is vigilantism. Taking the law into your own hands.

Executing someone without trial or due process. Very dangerous precipice we're on.

well then thank goodness you and your ilk haven't been able to screw with this very GOOD law.

People should be able to defend themselves. OTherwise you might as well hand the world over to the thieves and thugs.

Wind Song

03-29-2012, 04:58 PM

Here's a story. A guy breaks into a house and empties out the laundry bag and fills it with loot. Man comes home to find his house being looted and surprises the burgler. The thief swings his bag of loot at the guy, but the guy ducks then hits the thief, knocking him down the porch stairs, killing him. I say justified, windsong says "man murders another for doing his laundry". :laugh:

Aren't you cute? I'd say he was justified too, and I would also say he didn't intend to kill the thief. That's entirely differently than stabbing a man to death in an act of rage.

Little-Acorn

03-29-2012, 05:13 PM

Page after page of people talking about the attention-addict windy song.

Looks like she's found a few people who can be manipulated into talking about her endlessly.

Mission accomplished.

Wind Song

03-29-2012, 05:18 PM

Page after page of people talking about the attention-addict windy song.

Looks like she's found a few people who can be manipulated into talking about her endlessly.

Mission accomplished.

We've been discussing the topic most of the time. I've been posting on it all day. It's illegal to kill dogs in Florida, but 17 year old black kids, no problem.

"One of the burdens of being a black male is carrying the heavy weight of other people’s suspicions. One minute you’re going about your life, the next you could be pleading for it, if you’re lucky. And far too many aren’t. That’s why the Feb. 26 killing of Trayvon Martin has black parents around the country clutching their sons a little closer."

Read more: http://www.care2.com/causes/illegal-to-kill-dogs-but-not-black-kids-in-florida.html#ixzz1qXz1M1lE

Sound's like you're jealous or something. Somebody not paying you enough attention?
What kind of attention do you want, honey?

Missileman

03-29-2012, 05:31 PM

Zimmerman executed Martin for the crime of daring to walk home from a convenience store in Zimmerman's neighborhood. Zimmerman muttered expletives and slurs under his breath and said "these assholes always get away" on the 9/11 call. He was determined to not let Martin get away with his life. He ignored the advice of the 911 operator and challenged Martin's right to stand on a public street in Zimmerman's neighborhood.

Ya know...I think I've heard that karma's a bitch. Lady...you're one dumb karma!

Wind Song

03-29-2012, 05:34 PM

<IFRAME height=315 src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/_ivt_N2Zcts" frameBorder=0 width=420 allowfullscreen></IFRAME>
Ya know...I think I've heard that karma's a bitch. Lady...you're one dumb karma!

I admit to being a bitch and proud of it!:dev:

Missileman

03-29-2012, 05:41 PM

I admit to being a bitch and proud of it!:dev:

I'm not knocking you for being a bitch, as I'm a self-proclaimed asshole. However, you've taken stupidity to previously unattainable heights.

Wind Song

03-29-2012, 05:43 PM

I'm not knocking you for being a bitch, as I'm a self-proclaimed asshole. However, you've taken stupidity to previously unattainable heights.

Let's examine what you call "stupid". Any view outside the majority here. Stupid for pointing out the obvious, that Zimmerman used racial profiling in his idea of what was "suspicious" about Martin.

Stupid is pointing out Martin is dead because Zimmerman thought he was "suspicious" and one those "assholes who always get away".

SassyLady

03-29-2012, 05:45 PM

Apparently, the law supports this man in stabbing the suspect to death. I don't. This is vigilantism. Taking the law into your own hands.

Executing someone without trial or due process. Very dangerous precipice we're on.

Isn't the criminal taking the law into his own hands first Wind Song? Why is it that the victim is the one that is supposed to uphold the law? Why does it seem laws protect the guilty more than the innocent? I believe the minute someone decides to commit a crime they are taking their own life into their hands and justice should be swift.

Who are you to say that the person doing the stabbing isn't delivering Karma in this lifetime instead of the next?

Wind Song

03-29-2012, 05:47 PM

Isn't the criminal taking the law into his own hands first Wind Song? Why is it that the victim is the one that is supposed to uphold the law? Why does it seem laws protect the guilty more than the innocent? I believe the minute someone decides to commit a crime they are taking their own life into their hands and justice should be swift.

Who are you to say that the person doing the stabbing isn't delivering Karma in this lifetime instead of the next?

The man killed out of vengeance and rage. Do you propose we do away with the court system and just start killing anyone suspected of anything?

This is vigilantism, and it is now legal in America.

Wind Song

03-29-2012, 05:53 PM

Isn't the criminal taking the law into his own hands first Wind Song? Why is it that the victim is the one that is supposed to uphold the law? Why does it seem laws protect the guilty more than the innocent? I believe the minute someone decides to commit a crime they are taking their own life into their hands and justice should be swift.

Who are you to say that the person doing the stabbing isn't delivering Karma in this lifetime instead of the next?

1. It is against the law to burglarize a home.
2. It is now legal to kill the burglar. That is vigilantism. Taking the law into your own hands.

As for the karma, the man who died had the karma to rob and take a swing at the man who chasing him. The "victim" is a victim of his own rage. He has the karma of killing a man in cold blood.

SassyLady

03-29-2012, 05:56 PM

The man killed out of vengeance and rage. Do you propose we do away with the court system and just start killing anyone suspected of anything?

This is vigilantism, and it is now legal in America.

Why did the killer have so much rage and vengeance in his heart? Was he just sitting in his livingroom one day and go off his rocker?

You are the one that is insisting that Martin had a right to attack Zimmerman because he was asked about why he was in the neighborhood. That it was OK for Martin to attack Zimmerman because he felt threatened. One would think if you condone that, you would condone a person chasing down and attacking someone who committed a crime against them, as the person in the above scenario did. You can't have it both way WS. Why is OK for Martin to be a vigilante but not the guy above?

Missileman

03-29-2012, 05:57 PM

Let's examine what you call "stupid". Any view outside the majority here. Stupid for pointing out the obvious, that Zimmerman used racial profiling in his idea of what was "suspicious" about Martin.

Stupid is pointing out Martin is dead because Zimmerman thought he was "suspicious" and one those "assholes who always get away".

No, stupid is saying that Zimmerman "executed" Martin for carrying skittles and Iced tea...stupid for insisting that your assumption is "the obvious"...I can list more.

For the sake of argument, let's assume (and that's all it is, an assumption) that Zimmerman's radar went off because Martin is black. Does that mean that Martin then had a right to physically attack Zimmerman and Zimmerman then also had no right to defend himself?

Wind Song

03-29-2012, 06:02 PM

Why did the killer have so much rage and vengeance in his heart? Was he just sitting in his livingroom one day and go off his rocker?

You are the one that is insisting that Martin had a right to attack Zimmerman because he was asked about why he was in the neighborhood. That it was OK for Martin to attack Zimmerman because he felt threatened. One would think if you condone that, you would condone a person chasing down and attacking someone who committed a crime against them, as the person in the above scenario did. You can't have it both way WS. Why is OK for Martin to be a vigilante but not the guy above?

Nope. You've mistated my position.

SassyLady

03-29-2012, 06:04 PM

Nope. You've mistated my position.

Oh, I really did think you felt it was OK for Martin to attack Zimmerman for "stalking" him. Have you changed your position on this?

Wind Song

03-29-2012, 06:08 PM

Oh, I really did think you felt it was OK for Martin to attack Zimmerman for "stalking" him. Have you changed your position on this?

Nope. I never said I thought it was OK. I said I wished Martin had run for his life instead of standing his ground and asserting his right to walk home without harassment.

I said that in "fight or flight" the brain chooses one or the other strategy. If Martin had killed Zimmerman there would be a lynch mob out to get him.

It is horrifying that it is legal to take the law into your own hands. It is legal to stab a man to death for ANY crime without any due process.

What happened to the Constitution and Bill of Rights? Shall we keep ignoring it?

Missileman

03-29-2012, 06:17 PM

Nope. I never said I thought it was OK. I said I wished Martin had run for his life instead of standing his ground and asserting his right to walk home without harassment.

I said that in "fight or flight" the brain chooses one or the other strategy. If Martin had killed Zimmerman there would be a lynch mob out to get him.

It is horrifying that it is legal to take the law into your own hands. It is legal to stab a man to death for ANY crime without any due process.

What happened to the Constitution and Bill of Rights? Shall we keep ignoring it?

The thief was stabbed in self-defense. That is not "taking the law into your own hands".

SassyLady

03-29-2012, 06:35 PM

Nope. I never said I thought it was OK. I said I wished Martin had run for his life instead of standing his ground and asserting his right to walk home without harassment.

I said that in "fight or flight" the brain chooses one or the other strategy. If Martin had killed Zimmerman there would be a lynch mob out to get him.

It is horrifying that it is legal to take the law into your own hands. It is legal to stab a man to death for ANY crime without any due process.

What happened to the Constitution and Bill of Rights? Shall we keep ignoring it?

Wow, WS, you really can make huge leaps with your reasoning .... a guy chases a burglar down the street and when the burglar attacks the victim and the victim defends him and stabs the burglar you leap to the conclusion that it's vigilante justice.

Wind Song

03-29-2012, 06:37 PM

The thief was stabbed in self-defense. That is not "taking the law into your own hands".

Yes, it is.

SassyLady

03-29-2012, 06:37 PM

Yes, it is.

Self-defense is now "taking the law into your own hands"?

Missileman

03-29-2012, 06:39 PM

Yes, it is.

More stupidity on your part.

Wind Song

03-29-2012, 06:45 PM

Self-defense is now "taking the law into your own hands"?

It most certainly is. The burglary victim should have called LE and let them arrest the burglar. Not run after the guy and stab him to death.

The man didn't deserve to be stabbed to death for stealing a car radio.

We have something in this country called LE, due process, courts etc.

SassyLady

03-29-2012, 06:54 PM

It most certainly is. The burglary victim should have called LE and let them arrest the burglar. Not run after the guy and stab him to death.

The man didn't deserve to be stabbed to death for stealing a car radio.

We have something in this country called LE, due process, courts etc.

If the burglar had not taken to a life of crime, then he would NOT deserve to be stabbed to death. Once a person makes a conscious choice to break the law and do harm to innocent victims, then that person has given up the right to deserve anything in my book.

People are beginning to understand that laws have turned them into sheep and the wolves (criminals) don't give a damn about the sheepdog (laws/police). They know they can outwit the dog and take a sheep anytime they want because the sheep have become extremely docile ... docile because they believe the farmer and the sheepdog will protect them. People are sheep, expecting the police (farmer and sheepdog) to protect them from the criminals (wolves). The problem is that the farmer and sheepdog have just been throwing rocks at the wolves and now the wolves have multiplied to the point that they can kill and plunder knowing they won't have to much to worry about. People (sheep) need to start taking responsibility for their own protection from the criminals (wolves).

Missileman

03-29-2012, 07:07 PM

logroller

03-29-2012, 07:13 PM

It most certainly is. The burglary victim should have called LE and let them arrest the burglar. Not run after the guy and stab him to death.

You SHOULD shut your trap 'cause you have no idea what laws apply and why..but alas, you have a lawful right to believe and speak freely.
Everybody's got rights, not just criminals...even ignorant people.

The man didn't deserve to be stabbed to death for stealing a car radio.
He didn't deserve to keep the radio he stole either. He SHOULD have left it in the guys car, or just given it back instead of attacking.

We have something in this country called LE, due process, courts etc.

What We have in this country are laws; each of those entities owes their existence to laws. These laws state meeting force with force is justified. Actually, self-defense pre-dates US laws, its a common law We kept. Look it up.

logroller

03-29-2012, 07:19 PM

Aren't you cute? I'd say he was justified too, and I would also say he didn't intend to kill the thief. That's entirely differently than stabbing a man to death in an act of rage.
or rather, out of fear for your own life

fj1200

03-29-2012, 09:03 PM

Mr. P

03-29-2012, 09:17 PM

Page after page, post after post..."I can connect the DOTS and I choose which DOTS to connect and which to skip entirely. I also mix em up from time to time. It makes me FEEL gooder"~ WS :laugh:

fj1200

03-29-2012, 09:19 PM

Truly we have witnessed the death of logic.

darin

03-30-2012, 04:45 AM

Truly we have witnessed the death of logic.

And Logic Death's name is Wind Song

fj1200

03-30-2012, 08:35 AM

And Logic Death's name is Wind Song

She saw Logic walking around suspiciously unassuming, proceeded to stalk Logic prior to it making a valid observation, and then executed Logic when it advanced on her position.

darin

03-30-2012, 08:49 AM

Wind Song was trying to load a chair into a van, while she wore a fake cast. Logic walked by, seeing Wind Song struggle. Wind Song accepted Logic's offer for help. Turning around, Wind Song had Logic take the side of the chair facing into the van. When Logic lifted, Wind Song pushed hard, knocking Logic to the van floor. Then, Wind Song beat Logic unconscious. Logic awoke in a earthen pit, scared and cold. Wind Song stood above and instructed Logic to Put the F'ing Lotion in the Basket!

fj1200

03-30-2012, 08:57 AM

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a2/Goya_Caprichos3.jpg/220px-Goya_Caprichos3.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Goya_Caprichos3.jpg)

The Sleep of Reason Produces Monsters (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sleep_of_Reason_Produces_Monsters)

Dilloduck

04-08-2012, 10:39 AM

http://bjlacosteblogs.wordpress.com/2012/03/17/17-year-old-black-kid-killed-for-no-reason/

And we say racism doesn't exist in America.

You were pretty eager to scream "racism" when this first came out. Care to explain why since there is no evidence that this was racially motivated ?
This kind of accusation does more to harm race relations than anything.

jimnyc

04-08-2012, 10:42 AM

You were pretty eager to scream "racism" when this first came out. Care to explain why since there is no evidence that this was racially motivated ?
This kind of accusation does more to harm race relations than anything.

She stated he was killed "for being black" and wanted to toss out accusation after accusation. Now she won't even respond to reports that backup Zimmerman's broken nose, gash on the back of his head, grass stains and wet back, and of course the witness that watched this is lying.

Dilloduck

04-08-2012, 10:49 AM

WS just needs to accept that the world is tough sometimes and not everyone is a victim of an evil plot. Maybe a good long cry would help her become rational again.

Wind Song

04-08-2012, 11:15 AM

Self-defense is now "taking the law into your own hands"?

Zimmerman was the aggressor. This was not self-defense.

Wind Song

04-08-2012, 11:16 AM

jimnyc

04-08-2012, 11:18 AM

Zimmerman was the aggressor. This was not self-defense.

Following someone is not "aggressive". Asking them a question is not "aggressive" - no matter how many times you misstate this. But, pummeling someone's head into the ground as a witness watches IS aggressive.

jimnyc

04-08-2012, 11:19 AM

Zimmerman reported 5 other "suspicious" people, each of them, black.

Zimmerman apparently reported 46 people over a span of 8 years. What were ALL the races, WS? Let's not cherry pick, let's use ALL the facts, OK?

Wind Song

04-08-2012, 11:20 AM

Zimmerman apparently reported 46 people over a span of 8 years. What were ALL the races, WS? Let's not cherry pick, let's use ALL the facts, OK?

If the races had been reversed, with Trayvon white and Zimmerman black, Trayvon would in jail. Some value a white life lost over a black life lost everytime.

Dilloduck

04-08-2012, 11:20 AM

Zimmerman reported 5 other "suspicious" people, each of them, black.

he reported suspicious people------he didn't report them because they were black unless you have some new evidence for us.

jimnyc

04-08-2012, 11:22 AM

If the races had been reversed, with Trayvon white and Zimmerman black, Trayvon would in jail.

Let's not debate things that didn't happen and stick to things that did...

I'll ask again, WS, please... What were the races of ALL the people that Zimmerman reported, not just the few you cherry picked to claim he thought blacks alone were suspicious. Can you please answer this for me?

Wind Song

04-08-2012, 11:23 AM

Following someone is not "aggressive". Asking them a question is not "aggressive" - no matter how many times you misstate this. But, pummeling someone's head into the ground as a witness watches IS aggressive.

Trayvon defended himself. Zimmerman was the aggressor, he stalked Trayvon and initiated the fight so that he could kill him.

jimnyc

04-08-2012, 11:24 AM

Trayvon defended himself. Zimmerman was the aggressor, he stalked Trayvon and initiated the fight so that he could kill him.

*sigh* - I see you're still assuming things and have no interest in discussing the actual facts.

Wind Song

04-08-2012, 11:25 AM

he reported suspicious people------he didn't report them because they were black unless you have some new evidence for us.

Zimmerman reported five other "suspicious" people, all black.

Wind Song

04-08-2012, 11:26 AM

*sigh* - I see you're still assuming things and have no interest in discussing the actual facts.

I am expressing my view and the reason I hold it. You don't like it? Too bad.

jimnyc

04-08-2012, 11:27 AM

Zimmerman reported five other "suspicious" people, all black.

I am expressing my view and the reason I hold it. You don't like it? Too bad.

What were the races of the other 41 people he reported as suspicious?

Wind Song

04-08-2012, 11:32 AM

What were the races of the other 41 people he reported as suspicious?

You're the one coming up with number. You must know. In what capacity did he make these reports? As part of the security job he was fired for excessive use of force, or his cop wannabe neighborhood watch bs?

Zimmerman initiated this fight knowing he had the upper hand. He was armed.

I'm not going to change my mind. I hold this view along with many other Americans. Those of us who can recognize racism when we see it. I think you're blind to racism.

Dilloduck

04-08-2012, 11:37 AM

Zimmerman reported five other "suspicious" people, all black.

Irrelevant---but I know it's the best you can do. He didn't report this person because of his color.

jimnyc

04-08-2012, 11:38 AM

You're the one coming up with number. You must know. In what capacity did he make these reports? As part of the security job he was fired for excessive use of force, or his cop wannabe neighborhood watch bs?

Zimmerman initiated this fight knowing he had the upper hand. He was armed.

I'm not going to change my mind. I hold this view along with many other Americans. Those of us who can recognize racism when we see it. I think you're blind to racism.

Try doing a search, I'm not doing your homework for you, but these facts have been released.

Yeah, Zimmerman had the upper hand alright, while Martin straddled on top of him was bashing his head into the ground, after he already broke his nose. Martin decided to "fight for his life" as you stated, when he didn't need to, and HE assaulted an armed man. He paid the price for his mistake.

Wind Song

04-08-2012, 11:56 AM

Irrelevant---but I know it's the best you can do. He didn't report this person because of his color.

He took the race as part of what he considered suspicious about the kid. He took the gender into account too. If a white woman was walking in the rain from 7-11 talking on the cell phone and looking around would Martin have considered her dangerous?

I doubt it, even if she had baggy pants and wore a hoodie.

Wind Song

04-08-2012, 11:57 AM

Try doing a search, I'm not doing your homework for you, but these facts have been released.

Yeah, Zimmerman had the upper hand alright, while Martin straddled on top of him was bashing his head into the ground, after he already broke his nose. Martin decided to "fight for his life" as you stated, when he didn't need to, and HE assaulted an armed man. He paid the price for his mistake.

He paid the price for defending himself against Zimmerman's aggression. He died and you're happy about it. I'm not.

We've come to a point in this country, that if your dog gets loose and shit's on a neighbor's lawn, the neighbor can kill you and the dog.

SassyLady

04-08-2012, 02:27 PM

He paid the price for defending himself against Zimmerman's aggression. He died and you're happy about it. I'm not.

Typical liberal hysterical response.

If you don't agree with their viewpoint or opinion they go into robotic repetitive mode and try to exhaust the common sense debate until no one wants to waste their time on the subject. Then the liberal cries "I win, I win because I had the last word".

Trigg

04-08-2012, 02:51 PM

If the races had been reversed, with Trayvon white and Zimmerman black, Trayvon would in jail. Some value a white life lost over a black life lost everytime.

If the races had been reversed one would have been HISPANIC and the other black.

Have you not paid any attention to the news media past the innitial story???????

This is not and never has been a black/white crime. Zimms mother is Peruvian. At least get SOME of your facts straight.

I'm also getting tired of the "gated community" description. This shooting took place in a multi-ethnic and multi-race APPARTMENT complex.

LuvRPgrl

04-08-2012, 08:25 PM

Try doing a search, I'm not doing your homework for you, but these facts have been released.

Yeah, Zimmerman had the upper hand alright, while Martin straddled on top of him was bashing his head into the ground, after he already broke his nose. Martin decided to "fight for his life" as you stated, when he didn't need to, and HE assaulted an armed man. He paid the price for his mistake.

talk about making assumptions.
zimmermans version are not facts,,

as they say, video doesnt lie,
but witnesses do

Wind Song

04-08-2012, 08:48 PM

If the races had been reversed one would have been HISPANIC and the other black.

Have you not paid any attention to the news media past the innitial story???????

This is not and never has been a black/white crime. Zimms mother is Peruvian. At least get SOME of your facts straight.

I'm also getting tired of the "gated community" description. This shooting took place in a multi-ethnic and multi-race APPARTMENT complex.

Zimmerman is half white. He was initially referred to in police reports as white. The name "Zimmerman" isn't Hispanic. Racial profiling was involved in this case. Martin is dead b/c he was "walking around while black". 73% of blacks said they believe George Zimmerman (http://content.usatoday.com/topics/topic/George+Zimmerman) would have been arrested if Trayvon was white, while 33% of whites agreed.

Trayvon was labeled because of stereotypes … that blacks are up to no good, that they need to be watched. Black males are often viewed as perpetrators of crime, whether they are or not. Zimmerman prejudicial attitudes and stereotypes toward African-American males. He sought to define them as criminals, and pursued them as such, in his effort to prove himself as a pseudo-law enforcement officer. What he claimed was a "suspicious" man, who "looks like he's on a drugs", turned out to be a 17-year old child walking home to his father and brother to watch basketball.

Trayvon Martin's body lay dead for three days before police officers thought it necessary to find his parents, and in the process, overruled their own investigator's suggestion to charge the boy's shooter -- opting instead to let Zimmerman walk as if no crime had occurred.

jimnyc

04-08-2012, 09:06 PM

talk about making assumptions.
zimmermans version are not facts,,

as they say, video doesnt lie,
but witnesses do

What you quoted and the beanhead thanked you for, was what the one and only witness told the police. Me repeating what he stated doesn't mean I'm making assumptions. So are both you and WS claiming that Zimmerman is lying, and the independent witness, who gave his version of events while on the phone with 911 that night, is also lying? That would be one hell of a coincidence that his version and Zimmermans lined up so closely.

LuvRPgrl

04-08-2012, 09:29 PM

What you quoted and the beanhead thanked you for, was what the one and only witness told the police. Me repeating what he stated doesn't mean I'm making assumptions. So are both you and WS claiming that Zimmerman is lying, and the independent witness, who gave his version of events while on the phone with 911 that night, is also lying? That would be one hell of a coincidence that his version and Zimmermans lined up so closely.

you mentioned facts and assumptions.
You are assuming the witness accounts are true and accurate, they are NOT FACTS.

FACTS.
Martin was shot with a gun.
Someone was screaming for help and then there was a gun fired.
the location where it took place.
zimmerman ignored the order to not follow Martin.

zimmerman and the other guy, "his buddy" had plenty of motivation to lie.
At what point did the other guy give his statement? If you know.

Your repeating what he said, for whatever is your reason, is part of a process of making assumptions.
nothing more, nothing less
thats all....

Wind Song

04-08-2012, 10:13 PM

Fact: Zimmerman is described by co-workers as a "jekyl and hyde" personality.

Fact: Zimmerman was fired for using too much force while working as a security guard. He assaulted a woman while on duty.

Fact: Zimmerman was arrested for attacking a police officer.

Fact: Zimmerman has a history of domestic violence against women.

Fact: Neighborhood Watch officers are not supposed to be armed.

Fact: Zimmerman was carrying a concealed weapon while patrolling the neighborhood.

Fact: Zimmerman describes Martin as "having something wrong with him" and as "being on drugs".

Fact: Nothing was wrong with Martin. He was on his way home with skittles and ice tea to watch basketball with his father.

Fact: The lead investigator wanted to charge Zimmerman with manslaughter. Fact: He wasn't allowed to.

Fact: The initial police reports describe Zimmerman as white. Fact: Zimmerman is half white and half Peruvian American.

Fact: Zimmerman referred to Martin as "these assholes who always get away".

Fact: Zimmerman family claims george's snoz was broken, yet he did not go to the hospital.

Fact: Police sent a narcotics cop to the scene instead of a homicide detective.

Inference: Zimmerman decided Martin wouldn't get away. Zimmerman had racially profiled Martin as "suspicious" on very little evidence. He presumed LE activity, followed Martin against LE advice and initiated a physical altercation which gave him the excuse to fire his weapon and kill Martin.

gabosaurus

04-08-2012, 10:48 PM

http://bjlacosteblogs.wordpress.com/2012/03/17/17-year-old-black-kid-killed-for-no-reason/

And we say racism doesn't exist in America.

Going back to the beginning:
Yes, racism does exist in America. But can you tell us WHY it exists?
If you don't understand why, please cease the continued pontification about ths subject.

Wind Song

04-08-2012, 11:43 PM

SassyLady

04-09-2012, 01:32 AM

Oh come on. Do you really want to discuss why racism exists?

Yes.

Wind Song

04-09-2012, 09:16 AM

Yes.

Then put forth your own reasons for it, and I will do the same. Racism exists because some people think their race is superior to another. I remember the time in which blacks were considered "dirty" because their hands were dark. The presumption continues to be among many people that blacks are inherently more likely to be criminal than whites. Racism arises out of fear and hatred. It's the same reason anti-semitism arises. You folks who think racism doesn't exist, IMO, are naive.

Racism arises out of ignorance. It is a specific form of prejudice, one that lends itself to institutional responses, like racial profiling by police. I have a Buddhist answer for this too, but Jim has asked me to not act like a Buddhist when I'm debating.

In Buddhism, racism arises out of duality; self and other.

fj1200

04-09-2012, 09:36 AM

You folks who think racism doesn't exist, IMO, are naive.

Who would that be?

Wind Song

04-09-2012, 10:04 AM

Who would that be?

People who say there is NO racism at all in this Martin/Zimmerman case.

LuvRPgrl

04-09-2012, 10:05 AM

Going back to the beginning:
Yes, racism does exist in America. But can you tell us WHY it exists?
If you don't understand why, please cease the continued pontification about ths subject.

it exists in America for the same reason it exists everywhere else in the world, always has, always will.
There is probably less racism in america than most places in the world.

People who say there is NO racism at all in this Martin/Zimmerman case.

actually nobody has really said that, what they have said is there is no proof of it,
yet, I think they are speaking of racism from zimmerman, of which I see no proof also,
but as for the police dept, I see plenty of it.

What ;most who are bitching about all the rallies and the cry of racism are not understanding
is that the parents are crying the police dept has behaved racially and simply want a better investigation,
of which I cant blame them one bit when you consider the investigation would have been performed better by barney fiffe himself, LITERALLY.

Not to mention, those bitching that blacks are always crying about racism are practicing the exact same thing when they do that.

LuvRPgrl

04-09-2012, 10:09 AM

Then put forth your own reasons for it, and I will do the same. Racism exists because some people think their race is superior to another. I remember the time in which blacks were considered "dirty" because their hands were dark. The presumption continues to be among many people that blacks are inherently more likely to be criminal than whites. Racism arises out of fear and hatred. It's the same reason anti-semitism arises. You folks who think racism doesn't exist, IMO, are naive.

Racism arises out of ignorance. It is a specific form of prejudice, one that lends itself to institutional responses, like racial profiling by police. I have a Buddhist answer for this too, but Jim has asked me to not act like a Buddhist when I'm debating.

In Buddhism, racism arises out of duality; self and other.U

racism has nothing to do with ignorance.
Assuming Jim did tell you to not act like a buddhist, are you really going to listen to him???? cowardice brings bad karma

Wind Song

04-09-2012, 10:11 AM

LuvRPgrl

04-09-2012, 10:17 AM

Zimmerman he did certain things the night of Feb. 26 to bolster the racial profiling claim. He saw a black kid in a hoodie and immediately decided he was "up to no good." Zimmerman had concluded Martin was guilty of a number of things even though he didn't see the youth commit anything that could be remotely described as a crime. Martin looked like he was on drugs, Zimmerman told police.
Martin was one of "these assholes [who] always get away," Zimmerman said. While Zimmerman might not be a racist, he did draw several conclusions about Martin the night of Feb. 26 that were probably based on race.

might be true, but you have absolutely no evidence whatsoever to substantiate it.
to prove racism, you have to show a pattern of behavior, one event does not constitute a pattern.

there were other factors that did or may have played a role in making z think he was a criminal,
or maybe not, but we certainly cant prove it, and z isnt going to tell us the truth if he did it simply because Marting is black.

Wind Song

04-09-2012, 10:19 AM

U

racism has nothing to do with ignorance.
Assuming Jim did tell you to not act like a buddhist, are you really going to listen to him???? cowardice brings bad karma

Yes, I'm going to listen to Jim in this regard. It is not necessary for me to get into Buddhist explanations in non-religious threads.

jimnyc

04-09-2012, 10:35 AM

you mentioned facts and assumptions.
You are assuming the witness accounts are true and accurate, they are NOT FACTS.

FACTS.
Martin was shot with a gun.
Someone was screaming for help and then there was a gun fired.
the location where it took place.
zimmerman ignored the order to not follow Martin.

zimmerman and the other guy, "his buddy" had plenty of motivation to lie.
At what point did the other guy give his statement? If you know.

Your repeating what he said, for whatever is your reason, is part of a process of making assumptions.
nothing more, nothing less
thats all....

How do you figure this guy was Zimmerman's buddy? Oh, and he was on the phone with 911 as the shooting happened. He saw the assault, saw Zimmerman cry out for help as his head was being bashed and then called 911. Do you figure maybe him and Zimmerman made up matching lies while Zimmerman was still getting hit by Trayvon? LOL

Trigg

04-09-2012, 11:21 AM

Zimmerman he did certain things the night of Feb. 26 to bolster the racial profiling claim. He saw a black kid in a hoodie and immediately decided he was "up to no good." Zimmerman had concluded Martin was guilty of a number of things even though he didn't see the youth commit anything that could be remotely described as a crime. Martin looked like he was on drugs, Zimmerman told police.
Martin was one of "these assholes [who] always get away," Zimmerman said. While Zimmerman might not be a racist, he did draw several conclusions about Martin the night of Feb. 26 that were probably based on race.

Zimmerman lived in a racially mixed appartment complex that had seen SEVERAL break-ins.

Does it not even cross your mind that he may have responded the way he did because of that???

Here is a person walking around, who Zimm doesn't recognize, in the rain, on a cold night, in a neighborhood with a lot of recent break-ins.

You keep refering to Martin as a "kid", yes technically that's right, but, he's a 6'2" "kid". A kid that size would get my little 5'4" attention also if he was walking around my neighborhood on a cold, dark, rainy night.

It amazes me that so many people would jump to race, instead of examining those FACTS.