Ricky - Seperation of church'n'state

[Noir]

Simple question, does Santorum have any idea what Seperation of church and state actually means?


Rick Santorum renewed his criticism of John F. Kennedy on Thursday night for saying during his 1960 campaign for the presidency that he believed “in an America where the separation of church and state is absolute.”“That’s not America,” the Republican presidential hopeful told a crowd at an Alabama dinner banquet. “That’s France. That’s a naked public square where people of faith are out of bounds.”
http://mobile.latimes.com/p.p?m=b&a=rp&id=1771393&postId=1771393&postUserId=7&sessionToken=&catId=6889&curAbsIndex=0&resultsUrl=DID%3D6%26DFCL%3D1000%26DSB%3Drank%2523 desc%26DBFQ%3DuserId%253A7%26DL.w%3D%26DL.d%3D10%2 6DQ%3DsectionId%253A6889%26DPS%3D0%26DPL%3D3

[fj1200]

Simple question, does Santorum have any idea what Seperation of church and state actually means?



He paraphrased Kennedy as saying, “I will take no advice, directly or indirectly, from anybody of faith. I will not permit that to be discussed.” By saying that, Santorum argued, “he went too far.”
http://mobile.latimes.com/p.p?m=b&a=rp&id=1771393&postId=1771393&postUserId=7&sessionToken=&catId=6889&curAbsIndex=0&resultsUrl=DID%3D6%26DFCL%3D1000%26DSB%3Drank%23de sc%26DBFQ%3DuserId%3A7%26DL.w%3D%26DL.d%3D10%26DQ% 3DsectionId%3A6889%26DPS%3D0%26DPL%3D3

Maybe the quote above would have more accurate of his position. I think he has a perfect idea of what it actually means to him.

[jimnyc]

Serious question, Noir... Are you solely against Santorum because he is "strict" about his faith and/or vocal about it at times? Do you agree/disagree with any of his politics or decisions/votes?

[MtnBiker]

Simple question, does Santorum have any idea what Seperation of church and state actually means?




Do you know? Where in the US constitution do the words " separation of church and state " appear?

[jimnyc]

Do you know? Where in the US constitution do the words " separation of church and state " appear?

OOOhhh OOOhhh, can I answer that one? :coffee:

[Noir]

Do you know? Where in the US constitution do the words " separation of church and state " appear?

The first amendment is in part a definition of the Seperation of church. The founding fathers didn't spell everything out.

[Noir]

Serious question, Noir... Are you solely against Santorum because he is "strict" about his faith and/or vocal about it at times? Do you agree/disagree with any of his politics or decisions/votes?

From what I know of him I don't like his moral politics, saying that victims of rape should not be elidgable for abortions, his worrisome comments about the constitution not giving US citizens to right to privacy, and he takes far too much interest in what people are doing in their bedrooms for my liking. For those reasons I wouldn't want him representing me.

[jimnyc]

From what I know of him I don't like his moral politics, saying that victims of rape should not be elidgable for abortions, his worrisome comments about the constitution not giving US citizens to right to privacy, and he takes far too much interest in what people are doing in their bedrooms for my liking. For those reasons I wouldn't want him representing me.

From what I'm reading, it sounds like you're saying you don't agree with his religious based stances. I don't think you would support him solely based on his regular outspokenness on his faith, even without the extreme comments.

[Noir]

From what I'm reading, it sounds like you're saying you don't agree with his religious based stances. I don't think you would support him solely based on his regular outspokenness on his faith, even without the extreme comments.

It's nothing to do with faith. Whether or not a raped woman should have the right to an abortion is not a faith issue. I wouldn't support anyone ni matter their reasons I'd they have a stance like Santorum. The fact that the reason Santorum has the stance he has because of his view on his religion makes no difference to me. It's what the view is that is wrong (IMO) not how he came to form the view.

[MtnBiker]

The first amendment is in part a definition of the Seperation of church. The founding fathers didn't spell everything out.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."


Santorum's interpretation is likely different than yours.

[Noir]

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."


Santorum's interpretation is likely different than yours.

Well idk what his definition is, but looking at the OP it seems that he thinks that banning people of faith from public ground (in france, though I can't comment on that as such) is what Seperation of church and state is about....which is exactly the opposite. If he is against people of faith being banned from the public square by their government then Santorum should be in *support* or the Seperation of church and state.

The reason for this thread is to show Santorum using and argument for Seperation in defence of his view that there should not be Seperation. Somewhere along the line he's got confused.

[fj1200]

Lathe reason for this thread is to so Santorum using and argument for Seperation in defence of his view that there should not be Seperation. Somewhere along the line he's got confused.

Probably right after reading the preceding sentence. :poke:

[Noir]

Probably right after reading the preceding sentence. :poke:

iPhone typing plus work leads to many Typeos, but they're almost always corrected a few mins later when I get another chance.

[RadiomanATL]

Maybe the quote above would have more accurate of his position. I think he has a perfect idea of what it actually means to him.

So basically Santorum made up the meaning in what Kennedy was trying to say and called it a paraphrase as a thin veil of an excuse for totally changing the meaning?

And all of Santorum's posturing ignores completely the context of what was going on at the time in the nation and in Kennedy's campaign. As one of the first (actual first?) catholics running for POTUS, Kennedy was facing a whispering campaign against him. People were saying that the office of POTUS would wind up being just an extension of the Vatican...papists were going to take over our government, etc.

By saying what he did, Kennedy was attempting to say "Yes, I am catholic, but my personal beliefs should not and will not take precedence over the law of the land and the duty of upholding the constitution". In effect, a wall between the government, and (his) church.

Also, if Santorum is all about saying that Kennedy's thoughts on the subject were wrong I wonder what he would have to say about these other people and the views that they had which mirrors Kennedy's.


"I hold that in this country there must be complete severance of Church and State; that public moneys shall not be used for the purpose of advancing any particular creed; and therefore that the public schools shall be non-sectarian and no public moneys appropriated for sectarian schools.

Theodore Roosevelt


By maintaining the separation of church and state, the United States has avoided the intolerance which has so divided the rest of the world with religious wars. Throughout our two hundred plus years, public policy debate has focused on political and economic issues, on which there can be compromise.

Barry Goldwater


The divorce between church and state should be absolute.

James Garfield


We establish no religion in this country, we command no worship, we mandate no belief, nor will we ever. Church and state are, and must remain, separate. All are free to believe or not believe, all are free to practice a faith or not, and those who believe are free, and should be free, to speak of and act on their belief.

Ronald Reagan

In their times, these were all prominent Republicans. Even today, Republicans running for office are wary of contradicting Goldwater and Reagan. However all of them said essentially the exact same thing as Kennedy. Santorum is going after the left's "Reagan" in his pandering. Forgetting that the actual Reagan had the exact same intent as Kennedy.

[RadiomanATL]

I should also add that it is a veiled attack on Romney and his religion. Romney faces much the same kind of criticism that Kennedy did, and will likely be forced to make the same kind of statements that Kennedy did. So santorum is preempting Romneys argument.

[fj1200]

So basically Santorum made up the meaning in what Kennedy was trying to say and called it a paraphrase as a thin veil of an excuse for totally changing the meaning?

And all of Santorum's posturing ignores completely the context of what was going on at the time in the nation and in Kennedy's campaign. As one of the first (actual first?) catholics running for POTUS, Kennedy was facing a whispering campaign against him. People were saying that the office of POTUS would wind up being just an extension of the Vatican...papists were going to take over our government, etc.

By saying what he did, Kennedy was attempting to say "Yes, I am catholic, but my personal beliefs should not and will not take precedence over the law of the land and the duty of upholding the constitution". In effect, a wall between the government, and (his) church.

Also, if Santorum is all about saying that Kennedy's thoughts on the subject were wrong I wonder what he would have to say about these other people and the views that they had which mirrors Kennedy's.

Those are different from what Santorum's paraphrase of Kennedy. Kennedy, apparently, would take no advice from someone of faith which is completely different than the church/state separation. Perhaps the actual words of Kennedy would be helpful here because your paraphrase is different.

[logroller]

Those are different from what Santorum's paraphrase of Kennedy. Kennedy, apparently, would take no advice from someone of faith which is completely different than the church/state separation. Perhaps the actual words of Kennedy would be helpful here because your paraphrase is different.
ATL seems to do the speech, and arguably the entire premise of antiestablishment, a bit more justice than santorum-- but see for yourself. http://www.npr.org/templates/text/s.php?sId=16920600&m=1

[fj1200]

ATL seems to do the speech, and arguably the entire premise of antiestablishment, a bit more justice than santorum-- but see for yourself. http://www.npr.org/templates/text/s.php?sId=16920600&m=1

I was just reading it there. I'm not sure where he pulled his paraphrase from, this part likely:


But let me stress again that these are my views. For contrary to common newspaper usage, I am not the Catholic candidate for president. I am the Democratic Party's candidate for president, who happens also to be a Catholic. I do not speak for my church on public matters, and the church does not speak for me.Whatever issue may come before me as president — on birth control, divorce, censorship, gambling or any other subject — I will make my decision in accordance with these views, in accordance with what my conscience tells me to be the national interest, and without regard to outside religious pressures or dictates. And no power or threat of punishment could cause me to decide otherwise.But if the time should ever come — and I do not concede any conflict to be even remotely possible — when my office would require me to either violate my conscience or violate the national interest, then I would resign the office; and I hope any conscientious public servant would do the same.


A bit of a stretch IMO.

[logroller]

I was just reading it there. I'm not sure where he pulled his paraphrase from, this part likely:


A bit of a stretch IMO.
I was thinking it was this part
I believe in an America that is officially neither Catholic, Protestant nor Jewish; where no public official either requests or accepts instructions on public policy from the Pope, the National Council of Churches or any other ecclesiastical source; where no religious body seeks to impose its will directly or indirectly upon the general populace or the public acts of its officials; and where religious liberty is so indivisible that an act against one church is treated as an act against all. It's a bold statement, then again, so was separation of church and state circa 1776.

[RadiomanATL]

Those are different from what Santorum's paraphrase of Kennedy. Kennedy, apparently, would take no advice from someone of faith which is completely different than the church/state separation. Perhaps the actual words of Kennedy would be helpful here because your paraphrase is different.

That is Santorum's interpretation though. Which is stretching what Kennedy said so far that it snaps.

Kennedy didn't say that he wouldn't take any advice from people of faith. Just that he would not take instruction (orders, if you will) from people of faith.

Like I said, Santorum is attacking the left's Reagan and preempting Romney on the issue.

[fj1200]

I was thinking it was this part

Methinks you correct.

[bullypulpit]

Santorum is a deeply troubled man who spends more time thinking about other people having sex than is good for him.

[LuvRPgrl]

Simple question, does Santorum have any idea what Seperation of church and state actually means?


http://mobile.latimes.com/p.p?m=b&a=rp&id=1771393&postId=1771393&postUserId=7&sessionToken=&catId=6889&curAbsIndex=0&resultsUrl=DID%3D6%26DFCL%3D1000%26DSB%3Drank%23de sc%26DBFQ%3DuserId%3A7%26DL.w%3D%26DL.d%3D10%26DQ% 3DsectionId%3A6889%26DPS%3D0%26DPL%3D3

He has a better idea than you and most others also.
Hey, still waiting on that source for your George Washington quote.

[cadet]

Simple question, does Santorum have any idea what Seperation of church and state actually means?


http://mobile.latimes.com/p.p?m=b&a=rp&id=1771393&postId=1771393&postUserId=7&sessionToken=&catId=6889&curAbsIndex=0&resultsUrl=DID%3D6%26DFCL%3D1000%26DSB%3Drank%23de sc%26DBFQ%3DuserId%3A7%26DL.w%3D%26DL.d%3D10%26DQ% 3DsectionId%3A6889%26DPS%3D0%26DPL%3D3

There is no separation of church and state...
It's the freedom to do whatever religion you want. Just not to be forced into that religion from the Gov't. You can be religious and run for office, so long as you don't use it to take a captive audience and preach.

They can say God, Allah, Buddha, or whatever they really want.
The point is, its not the freedom to ignore/oppress religion, it's the freedom to express your religion. To guarantee your rights to whatever you want to believe in, without the fear someone's going to come into your church/temple and say you can't do that anymore.

(Also, in my opinion, the founding fathers were scared shitless that they'd end up like Europe where everything was determined by the Catholic church. But they still wanted their faith.)

[Noir]

He has a better idea than you and most others also.
Hey, still waiting on that source for your George Washington quote.

He does? Then why does he use an example the state suppressing the church as an example of a separation of church and state?

Also, as i said the last time you asked, i will provide my source when Abbey provides hers, so you can go ask Abbey if you're that interested.

[LuvRPgrl]

He does? Then why does he use an example the state suppressing the church as an example of a separation of church and state?

Also, as i said the last time you asked, i will provide my source when Abbey provides hers, so you can go ask Abbey if you're that interested./

I dont kn0ow what you are talking about as for Santorum using an example, I need a link.

As for Abby, what the hell does she have to do with me asking for your source fore the washington q;uote?
Sources are the soul and heart of credibility and proof in boards like this.

[Noir]

/

I dont kn0ow what you are talking about as for Santorum using an example, I need a link.

As for Abby, what the hell does she have to do with me asking for your source fore the washington q;uote?
Sources are the soul and heart of credibility and proof in boards like this.

The link is in the OP, not that you even need click it, as reading the quoted text below the link quotes Santorum with his 'French example'

She has everything to do with my source for my George Washington quote, so go ask her for her source on her George Washington quote. Maybe she will give you the proof and credibility that she denied me.

[gabosaurus]

It means that Santorum doesn't have a chance in hell of getting the GOP nomination. And even less of winning the general election.

[LuvRPgrl]

The link is in the OP, not that you even need click it, as reading the quoted text below the link quotes Santorum with his 'French example'

She has everything to do with my source for my George Washington quote, so go ask her for her source on her George Washington quote. Maybe she will give you the proof and credibility that she denied me.u

so ;you are saying that I need to go to Abby for proof that THE QUOTE YOU HAVE on your sig is true?
you must be eating green moldy cheeseburgers with magic mushrooms on em
George W never said what you have quoted, no proof of it from you makes you a liar.

[Noir]

u

so ;you are saying that I need to go to Abby for proof that THE QUOTE YOU HAVE on your sig is true?
you must be eating green moldy cheeseburgers with magic mushrooms on em
George W never said what you have quoted, no proof of it from you makes you a liar.

No points regarding Sanatoriums church and state comments that are contradictory (at best) and which you were asking links for?

and i don't know why you're going on about this, i've told you, go ask Abbey about her sources for G. Washington quotes, i got mine from the same place she did.

[LuvRPgrl]

No points regarding Sanatoriums church and state comments that are contradictory (at best) and which you were asking links for?

and i don't know why you're going on about this, i've told you, go ask Abbey about her sources for G. Washington quotes, i got mine from the same place she did.

Its your quote on your sig. I cant ask abby to verify even if I wanted to. Is she someone posting a quote on your sig without your permission>
Apparently you cant find, as I couldnt, or he didnt make, such a statement.

YOU are the ONLY person I can ask.

[Little-Acorn]

The "wall of separation between church and state" that Jefferson mentioned in a letter to a friend, was taken from an even earlier work, I'm not sure of the exact source. That earlier work compared religion to a garden that one might have near his own home, from which peace, sustenance, prosperity, and ultimately life flows. And it mentioned that such a garden needed a strong wall around it, apparently to keep out the harshness of the external world.

Jefferson's reference to a wall of separation between church and state, was NOT a way of saying that religion should not intrude upon government. It was a way of saying that government should not intrude upon religion.

[jimnyc]

and i don't know why you're going on about this, i've told you, go ask Abbey about her sources for G. Washington quotes, i got mine from the same place she did.

Link? I understand the quote on hers is incorrect, but it is in fact out there and I can see how someone can believe it and post it. I don't see your quote anywhere. :poke: :cheers2:

[Noir]

Link? I understand the quote on hers is incorrect, but it is in fact out there and I can see how someone can believe it and post it. I don't see your quote anywhere. :poke: :cheers2:

Fairplay, we got the quotes from different (but ultimately similar) sources. :salute:

[LuvRPgrl]

Fairplay, we got the quotes from different (but ultimately similar) sources. :salute:

which is??

so, maybe her quote is in error, and you got yours from a similiar source? what does that say about yours?
where did you get it from again?

[Noir]

which is??

so, maybe her quote is in error, and you got yours from a similiar source? what does that say about yours?
where did you get it from again?

Good lord, its a JOKE, nothing more or less.

[LuvRPgrl]

The "wall of separation between church and state" that Jefferson mentioned in a letter to a friend, was taken from an even earlier work, I'm not sure of the exact source. That earlier work compared religion to a garden that one might have near his own home, from which peace, sustenance, prosperity, and ultimately life flows. And it mentioned that such a garden needed a strong wall around it, apparently to keep out the harshness of the external world.

Jefferson's reference to a wall of separation between church and state, was NOT a way of saying that religion should not intrude upon government. It was a way of saying that government should not intrude upon religion.

EXACTLY.....not to mention, the garden thingy, the "fruit" of the garden has to make it into the house, otherwise the garden is not feeding those it was intended to, and the people will starve.
so, keep the home out of the garden, but some of the garden should go to the home

[LuvRPgrl]

Good lord, its a JOKE, nothing more or less.


mis quoting GW is a joke?

[Noir]

The "wall of separation between church and state" that Jefferson mentioned in a letter to a friend, was taken from an even earlier work, I'm not sure of the exact source. That earlier work compared religion to a garden that one might have near his own home, from which peace, sustenance, prosperity, and ultimately life flows. And it mentioned that such a garden needed a strong wall around it, apparently to keep out the harshness of the external world.

Jefferson's reference to a wall of separation between church and state, was NOT a way of saying that religion should not intrude upon government. It was a way of saying that government should not intrude upon religion.

A wall keeps things both in and out.

A separation of Chruch and State is both good for the Church and the State. If one intrudes on the other you have problems.

[Noir]

mis quoting GW is a joke?

Just don't even try, it's gone over your head and its not coming back, end of this bizarre discussion.

[jimnyc]

Fairplay, we got the quotes from different (but ultimately similar) sources. :salute:

She got her quote from in your head? LOL Just fucking with ya, Jon. :thumb:

[Gator Monroe]

Seperation of Church & Snake !:laugh:

[LuvRPgrl]

Just don't even try, it's gone over your head and its not coming back, end of this bizarre discussion.

s
c
oso, still no source?

[Noir]

s
c
oso, still no source?

idk whether to laugh or cry xD it's a JOKE, pointed at ABBEY.

1 - Abbey puts GW quote in her sig.
2 - Over the space of a few months I ask her about the quote (sources etc)
3 - Each and every time Abbey completely blanks the posts I make, the thread regaurding it, and the PMs sent asking why she's ignoring.
4 - I decide to put a quote in my sig with just as much credibly as hers, as an ironic sark.

Do I have to spell it out any clearer =/

If you're really so concerned about GW being misquoted go ask abbey, she's the one thy did it seriously (or atleast refused to consider she'd posted a misquote when it was pointed out to her) I did it as a joke.

[LuvRPgrl]

idk whether to laugh or cry xD it's a JOKE, pointed at ABBEY.

1 - Abbey puts GW quote in her sig.
2 - Over the space of a few months I ask her about the quote (sources etc)
3 - Each and every time Abbey completely blanks the posts I make, the thread regaurding it, and the PMs sent asking why she's ignoring.
4 - I decide to put a quote in my sig with just as much credibly as hers, as an ironic sark.

Do I have to spell it out any clearer =/

If you're really so concerned about GW being misquoted go ask abbey, she's the one thy did it seriously (or atleast refused to consider she'd posted a misquote when it was pointed out to her) I did it as a joke.

Apparently your ego is so overblown that you think anyone and everyone in here has followed all of your posts and knows ;about that rift with abbey
GUESS WHAT,,I didnt know one single iota thing about it.

And before ATTEMPTING to insult someone, you should learn the difference between something going over someone's head, and when one simply doesnt have all the needed information at hand to understand.

And, by now, I would think Abbey has already got the message,,,,so why not take it down. You do realize we get alot of visitors here everyday, and if any of them read your quote and know its not true, just as I did, it would be painting a negative picture of Jimny's site here.

And dont pull an obama and try to sluff this off and abbey, ABBEY has NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS AT THIS POINT.

[Noir]

Apparently your ego is so overblown that you think anyone and everyone in here has followed all of your posts and knows ;about that rift with abbey
GUESS WHAT,,I didnt know one single iota thing about it.

And before ATTEMPTING to insult someone, you should learn the difference between something going over someone's head, and when one simply doesnt have all the needed information at hand to understand.

And, by now, I would think Abbey has already got the message,,,,so why not take it down. You do realize we get alot of visitors here everyday, and if any of them read your quote and know its not true, just as I did, it would be painting a negative picture of Jimny's site here.

And dont pull an obama and try to sluff this off and abbey, ABBEY has NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS AT THIS POINT.

This is hilarious :laugh:
While abbey has a misquote in her sig i will have my misquote in mine, that is all (:

Anyways, this thread has been derailed enough, back to Santorum and his odd choice of examples over separation of church and state, yes.

[LuvRPgrl]

This is hilarious :laugh:
While abbey has a misquote in her sig i will have my misquote in mine, that is all (:

Anyways, this thread has been derailed enough, back to Santorum and his odd choice of examples over separation of church and state, yes.

ok, I get it, as long as you think Abbey is a liar, you are going to admit you ARE A LIAR.
JUST WANTED TO CLARIFY THAT

[LuvRPgrl]

This is hilarious :laugh:
While abbey has a misquote in her sig i will have my misquote in mine, that is all (:

Anyways, this thread has been derailed enough, back to Santorum and his odd choice of examples over separation of church and state, yes.ou

Hey, my goal is not to be nasty about this, sorry for the liar comment, shouldnt have posted that.
It was a legit question from the get go, and I had no idea of the abbey ;with you history,m
but just to let you know, most dont know about that history and if reading your sig, will think its accurate and true,
It shocked me having done extensive reading on GW, and made me do some more searching, so I guess You got me!

[Abbey Marie]

Well, it looks like you think that you can mock me enough to get to me. But this is how I spent my morning, and believe me, I am so blessedly beyond your petty atheistic taunts, that I feel no need to reply. However, I don't want to lose this opportunity to share with you this beautiful song that explains the source of the peace and happiness that millions and millions of us have. Perhaps it may even help you someday, when life brings you to a place where you need to discard your arrogance and actually listen.

Meanwhile, have a fab day, Noir. :cool:


<iframe src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/VXp6xcY5IqU" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="420"></iframe>

[LuvRPgrl]

This is hilarious :laugh:
While abbey has a misquote in her sig i will have my misquote in mine, that is all (:

Anyways, this thread has been derailed enough, back to Santorum and his odd choice of examples over separation of church and state, yes.

Did a Bing search and got quite a few sources agreeing with abbeys quote being from GW,,,

but nothing on your quote

[Noir]

Well, it looks like you think that you can mock me enough to get to me. But this is how I spent my morning, and believe me, I am so blessedly beyond your petty atheistic taunts, that I feel no need to reply. However, I don't want to lose this opportunity to share with you this beautiful song that explains the source of the peace and happiness that millions and millions of us have. Perhaps it may even help you someday, when life brings you to a place where you need to discard your arrogance and actually listen.

Meanwhile, have a fab day, Noir. :cool:


<iframe src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/VXp6xcY5IqU" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="420"></iframe>

I wasn't taunting or insulting, have a wonderful day dearest.

[Noir]

Did a Bing search and got quite a few sources agreeing with abbeys quote being from GW,,,

but nothing on your quote

Provide your source links please. (Ofcourse Primary citations, not secondary quotes from blogs or sentences or credited but non-citated quotes like Abbeys sig)

[LuvRPgrl]

NO

[gabosaurus]

I often wonder if Santorum is aware of anything that has happened over the last 50 years. Many of his ideas haven't been in vogue since the Eisenhower administration.

[Noir]

NO

^,^ Atleast you have a sense of irony, i do love my irony, but then being british i can't not love it.