Illegal or undocumented?

[jimnyc]

When did calling these people what they are, illegal aliens or illegal immigrants - change to "undocumented"? Illegal is illegal, but of course the liberal MSM idiots have to try and "soften" the stance a bit. I just read an article where major tech leaders from Silicon Valley are donating to helping kids who are here illegally. Why aren't their parents helping them? Why aren't these rich bastards helping the starving children we already have here, instead of giving immigrants all over the world ideas about coming here illegally?

[Trigg]

the MSM is dedicated to a "path to citizenship" which of course is simply amnesty.


They're illegal, they snuck into this country and need to leave. Period

[gabosaurus]

They're illegal, they snuck into this country and need to leave. Period
Perhaps the parents, but I wouldn't think about the kids this way. It's not like they had a choice about where they live. If you are 4 or 5 years old and your mom smuggles you into the country, it's not like you can demand to go back.
This is where I feel kids deserve a second chance. It's not their choice to be here, but many do the best that they can under the circumstances. They get good grades, stay out of trouble and otherwise become good citizens.
There is a difference between kids who have grown up here and turned into good citizens and those who start committing crimes.

I have no sympathy for adults who sneak into this country. I am in favor of deporting them. But if the kids grow up and distinguish themselves, I am all for giving them a chance.

[jimnyc]

Perhaps the parents, but I wouldn't think about the kids this way. It's not like they had a choice about where they live. If you are 4 or 5 years old and your mom smuggles you into the country, it's not like you can demand to go back.
This is where I feel kids deserve a second chance. It's not their choice to be here, but many do the best that they can under the circumstances. They get good grades, stay out of trouble and otherwise become good citizens.
There is a difference between kids who have grown up here and turned into good citizens and those who start committing crimes.

I have no sympathy for adults who sneak into this country. I am in favor of deporting them. But if the kids grow up and distinguish themselves, I am all for giving them a chance.

Every degenerate parent in the world will then come here, and we'll be footing the bill for the illegal kids. No thanks.

[gabosaurus]

Every degenerate parent in the world will then come here, and we'll be footing the bill for the illegal kids. No thanks.

Perhaps we need to work harder to keep them out of the country. Instead of treating the issue as a political football.

[jimnyc]

Perhaps we need to work harder to keep them out of the country. Instead of treating the issue as a political football.

That we agree on, HUGE fines for companies hiring illegals, and no freebies for illegals.

[gabosaurus]

That we agree on, HUGE fines for companies hiring illegals, and no freebies for illegals.

This is THE perfect solution. Deporting illegals is like chopping small branches off a poisoned tree. You have to get rid of the tree.
Large companies know that if they are busted, they will only have to play a small fine. A bread manufacturer here was caught with almost a thousand illegals on their payroll. They were fined $5,000. And very few media outlets reported the story because they were afraid of losing advertising.
Illegals don't come here because they like our country. They come here to find jobs. I there are no jobs, the illegals will not risk crossing the border. It is a case of the companies having more clout that the government.

[fj1200]

Yeah, I suppose it could be the fault of businesses that we have such a porous border. :rolleyes:

[logroller]

This is THE perfect solution. Deporting illegals is like chopping small branches off a poisoned tree. You have to get rid of the tree.
Large companies know that if they are busted, they will only have to play a small fine. A bread manufacturer here was caught with almost a thousand illegals on their payroll. They were fined $5,000. And very few media outlets reported the story because they were afraid of losing advertising.
Illegals don't come here because they like our country. They come here to find jobs. I there are no jobs, the illegals will not risk crossing the border. It is a case of the companies having more clout that the government.

It sounds like you're proposing, as a solution to the illegal immigrant problem, a further collapse of the American job market. :cuckoo:

[jimnyc]

It sounds like you're proposing, as a solution to the illegal immigrant problem, a further collapse of the American job market. :cuckoo:

It sounds like you don't have an issue with American companies hiring illegals, and the company paying them illegally and the illegals making money under the table.

[jimnyc]

Yeah, I suppose it could be the fault of businesses that we have such a porous border. :rolleyes:

Lessen the reasons for them to want to be here and the size of the border would matter little.

For example, do you see Americans going nuts to sneak into Mexico? I wonder why that doesn't happen...

[logroller]

It sounds like you don't have an issue with American companies hiring illegals, and the company paying them illegally and the illegals making money under the table.
It's not so much the illegals being here illegally, and getting paid illegally; it's that it's against the law! ;)

Sriously though; you've never been paid under the table?

[jimnyc]

It's not so much the illegals being here illegally, and getting paid illegally; it's that it's against the law! ;)

Sriously though; you've never been paid under the table?

Once, when I was about 14 or 15, and too young to have a job and pay into the system anyway. In NJ you needed to be 16 in order to legally have a job. It was a general contractor, my brothers friend, who basically "hired" me as a favor to make some spare bucks.

My point being, I don't think major employers paying illegally, and employees making money tax free, make or brake our job market. Sure, they do make up a lot of them, and they produce a lot of stuff with their employer/employee relationship, but they're hardly holding up our economy.

And I still think we should make the fines so astronomical, that after just one company is busted for employing illegals, all others will think twice. And when the jobs start drying up, and more Americans become employed, it will in fact slow down the influx of illegals. Also, stop giving them welfare, and drivers licenses & all kinds of freebies. When they can't get jobs, and can't get handouts, I'm sure you'll see the problem slow down, and maybe make people start wanting to come here LEGALLY and start new lives.

[tailfins]

Most have FAKE documents. The GOP has allowed the opposition to define the terms regarding immigration. Rather than illegal aliens, a better term would be "participants in human trafficking" or human traffickers. The left needs to hear "So you support human trafficking?" If a company hiring a trafficked worker isn't funding human trafficking, then what would you call it? There have been (far too few) prosecutions for holding trafficked workers against their will. Others are extorted to give away most of their pay for exorbitant coyote fees. The problem with the term "illegal alien" is that it is dehumanizing. It gives those opposed to protecting trafficked people a hammer against those who want stop them.

[logroller]

Once, when I was about 14 or 15, and too young to have a job and pay into the system anyway. In NJ you needed to be 16 in order to legally have a job. It was a general contractor, my brothers friend, who basically "hired" me as a favor to make some spare bucks.

My point being, I don't think major employers paying illegally, and employees making money tax free, make or brake our job market. Sure, they do make up a lot of them, and they produce a lot of stuff with their employer/employee relationship, but they're hardly holding up our economy.

And I still think we should make the fines so astronomical, that after just one company is busted for employing illegals, all others will think twice. And when the jobs start drying up, and more Americans become employed, it will in fact slow down the influx of illegals. Also, stop giving them welfare, and drivers licenses & all kinds of freebies. When they can't get jobs, and can't get handouts, I'm sure you'll see the problem slow down, and maybe make people start wanting to come here LEGALLY and start new lives.
Regardless of whether they hiring wetbacks or their buddy's brother, the incentive is usually a cost-saving measure, not because hey like breaking the law. SO you propose higher costs, just on the other side. Which would result in destroying a few businesses to get the point the point across-- that's what you propose---setting an example of what happens when a company thinks government imposed costs are excessive and tries to get out of paying them?
Of course, through lobbying, thesis negotiable. Like GE paying no taxes on billion$ in profit...and I suspect, unless you propose a comprehensive immigration reform bill to atone the lobbying powers that be, you won't see those astronomical fines either.

[jimnyc]

Regardless of whether they hiring wetbacks or their buddy's brother, the incentive is usually a cost-saving measure, not because hey like breaking the law. SO you propose higher costs, just on the other side. Which would result in destroying a few businesses to get the point the point across-- that's what you propose---setting an example of what happens when a company thinks government imposed costs are excessive and tries to get out of paying them?
Of course, through lobbying, thesis negotiable. Like GE paying no taxes on billion$ in profit...and I suspect, unless you propose a comprehensive immigration reform bill to atone the lobbying powers that be, you won't see those astronomical fines either.

The extra money incurred by companies for LEGALLY employing within their business, will also result in all this tax money hitting the economy, both from the company and the individuals. I don't think we should give companies or individuals any type of leeway, just because it's good for our current economy.

[fj1200]

Lessen the reasons for them to want to be here and the size of the border would matter little.

For example, do you see Americans going nuts to sneak into Mexico? I wonder why that doesn't happen...

Because Mexico is an economic craphole and not because they have astronomical fines on business. Nevertheless, I don't think it is the job of private firms to enforce our immigration policy.

For the record, I am in favor of a new guest worker program that would allow our southern brothers to work legally.

[jimnyc]

Because Mexico is an economic craphole and not because they have astronomical fines on business. Nevertheless, I don't think it is the job of private firms to enforce our immigration policy.

For the record, I am in favor of a new guest worker program that would allow our southern brothers to work legally.

So fence up the border, but still allow companies to profit off of illegal workers? So long as there is little to no penalty, these companies that are doing so already will go for the cheapest route. I'm for the guest worker program too, but I think many of these companies will still want to pay less, and the employees would prefer to work for a company not taking anything from them on payday.

[logroller]

The extra money incurred by companies for LEGALLY employing within their business, will also result in all this tax money hitting the economy, both from the company and the individuals. I don't think we should give companies or individuals any type of leeway, just because it's good for our current economy.
What? Government coffers = the economy???

[fj1200]

^^They wouldn't be illegal then and there would also be legal loopholes that would require them to document the need. I believe many companies would prefer to hire citizens but in some cases, like my friend the contractor says, their work ethic is abysmal.

[jimnyc]

What? Government coffers = the economy???

No different than what you and I pay, and no reason why these companies and individuals shouldn't pay either, whether we fully agree with what the government does with it.


^^They wouldn't be illegal then and there would also be legal loopholes that would require them to document the need. I believe many companies would prefer to hire citizens but in some cases, like my friend the contractor says, their work ethic is abysmal.

I always hear that work ethic excuse, but I've never seen it pan out in reality. I've seen Americans crawling in the mud, working all day in 100+ degree heat, working in low paying jobs with crazy hours to make ends meet. Regardless of what OCA might say, I've not seen businesses closing up because Americans don't want to apply, or that they can't complete the jobs.

[tailfins]

Regardless of whether they hiring wetbacks or their buddy's brother, the incentive is usually a cost-saving measure, not because hey like breaking the law. SO you propose higher costs, just on the other side. Which would result in destroying a few businesses to get the point the point across-- that's what you propose---setting an example of what happens when a company thinks government imposed costs are excessive and tries to get out of paying them?
Of course, through lobbying, thesis negotiable. Like GE paying no taxes on billion$ in profit...and I suspect, unless you propose a comprehensive immigration reform bill to atone the lobbying powers that be, you won't see those astronomical fines either.

Companies dealing in trafficked workers should be treated the same as selling cocaine from the receptionist's desk.

[fj1200]

I always hear that work ethic excuse, but I've never seen it pan out in reality. I've seen Americans crawling in the mud, working all day in 100+ degree heat, working in low paying jobs with crazy hours to make ends meet. Regardless of what OCA might say, I've not seen businesses closing up because Americans don't want to apply, or that they can't complete the jobs.

True, and yes, it's anecdotal but in some cases it is there and you can't remove millions from the workforce without causing pain; to Americans and the "undocumented." A plan for at the very least a transition time is necessary. If we could get the economy growing again and truly drive unemployment down to late 90's numbers then there would be plenty of room for new workers.

[jimnyc]

Companies dealing in trafficked workers should be treated the same as selling cocaine from the receptionist's desk.

I don't know if I would make that leap, but I like you're line of thinking! :thumb: :laugh2:

[jimnyc]

True, and yes, it's anecdotal but in some cases it is there and you can't remove millions from the workforce without causing pain; to Americans and the "undocumented." A plan for at the very least a transition time is necessary. If we could get the economy growing again and truly drive unemployment down to late 90's numbers then there would be plenty of room for new workers.

Yeah, without a doubt, if it happened in one week we would have issues. But I think instituting fines and slowly stopping the freebies, would be a great start and make a huge dent, even if not instantly.

[logroller]

Companies dealing in trafficked workers should be treated the same as selling cocaine from the receptionist's desk.
Define dealing; Friday, in a pinch .... Grab a guy from the home depot-- he's not in chains or anything, I buy him lunch, pay him a fair wage. Same as a little blow Mary brought to share eight he girls after work. I'm kidding here, but not all violations are as serious as you say.

[ConHog]

The solutions are simple, but will NEVER happen

Institute Real ID Act immediately. No more loopholes, no more whines, just make all states get on board.

Start enforcing federal law against so called sanctuary cities

Remove so called anchor babies from their parents care, deport said parents allow children to be adopted. Alternatively the parents can take the child out of the country.

$20K fine per illegal employee whether hired by a business or an individual.

Put the national guard on our southern border and utilize all military intelligence and tactics to stop illegal border crossings.

[revelarts]

The solutions are simple, but will NEVER happen

Institute Real ID Act immediately. No more loopholes, no more whines, just make all states get on board.

Start enforcing federal law against so called sanctuary cities

Remove so called anchor babies from their parents care, deport said parents allow children to be adopted. Alternatively the parents can take the child out of the country.

$20K fine per illegal employee whether hired by a business or an individual.

Put the national guard on our southern border and utilize all military intelligence and tactics to stop illegal border crossings.


Your papers please on steroids.
you love big brother don't you Con?
jeeze lousie

[ConHog]

Your papers please on steroids.
you love big brother don't you Con?
jeeze lousie

"we gotta have some law around here"

Seriously, Rev and other loons are why we may as well accept that we will always have illegals in this country.

[jimnyc]

"we gotta have some law around here"

Seriously, Rev and other loons are why we may as well accept that we will always have illegals in this country.

Rev doesn't believe in law enforcement or the government. Rev is a "great strategist", just like Ron Paul. :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2:

[Trigg]

Perhaps the parents, but I wouldn't think about the kids this way. It's not like they had a choice about where they live. If you are 4 or 5 years old and your mom smuggles you into the country, it's not like you can demand to go back.
This is where I feel kids deserve a second chance. It's not their choice to be here, but many do the best that they can under the circumstances. They get good grades, stay out of trouble and otherwise become good citizens.
There is a difference between kids who have grown up here and turned into good citizens and those who start committing crimes.

I have no sympathy for adults who sneak into this country. I am in favor of deporting them. But if the kids grow up and distinguish themselves, I am all for giving them a chance.

I see where you're coming from here, but think about it. They're coming from countries that could use highly educated young people. If these kids who've gone through high school and struggled through college, go back to their home countries maybe they can make things better for the hundreds of millions left behind.

If the children are legal US citizens born to illegal immigrants they have the choice to either go with their parents or stay with relatives who are here legally.

I had this conversation with a lib co-worker who said she felt sorry for the kids because they are punished with their parents or separated. I asked her "what happens to the children of drug dealers, bank robbers, thieves or whatever when both parents go to jail"? They are separated or sent to relatives.

At least when illegal parents with citizen children are deported they have the option of taking their children with them and NOT being separated.