I am a federal bureaucrat

[darin]

Great 'rant' about our elected officials using us as pawns in their game.



I am a federal bureaucrat. A professional government employee. And guess what? I’m damn proud of it.

It seems that all I hear these days are the once and future leaders of our country tripping over themselves to denigrate the work we do. I’m tired of it, and I’m fed up. I don’t claim to represent anyone other than myself, but I would bet that a fair number of federal employees feel as I do. We are lawyers, doctors, PhD students, economists, writers, electricians, construction workers, security officers and technology specialists. We are not a drain on the national economy; rather, we are a primary reason why the United States remains as great as it is.

...
I have no doubt that some within the federal bureaucracy simply show up each day to collect a paycheck. I also have no doubt that this happens within any number of multinational corporations, small businesses and law firms. But I know for a fact that most of us do this job not because we want to make a lot of money but because, simply put, we want to serve our country.



http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/i-work-for-uncle-sam-and-im-proud-of-it/2012/02/14/gIQAVDcdcR_story.html

[fj1200]

Great 'rant' about our elected officials using us as pawns in their game.

... rather, we are a primary reason why the United States remains as great as it is.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinio...dcR_story.html (http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/i-work-for-uncle-sam-and-im-proud-of-it/2012/02/14/gIQAVDcdcR_story.html)

Oh please. :rolleyes: Our country isn't great because of government.

[darin]

If our country is great it's great because people work and serve the nation. Its great because we defend our way of life and all that.

[fj1200]

^Not because of some blanket statement made by a bureaucrat who claimed he is the primary reason for our greatness. It's like Buffett's secretary claiming that Berkshire Hathaway is great because of the work of secretaries. She and he may have necessary functions but they are not the reason the country is great.

[darin]

^Not because of some blanket statement made by a bureaucrat who claimed he is the primary reason for our greatness. It's like Buffett's secretary claiming that Berkshire Hathaway is great because of the work of secretaries. She and he may have necessary functions but they are not the reason the country is great.

Which is it? Above you wrote the author claimed 'government is the reason for the country's greatness' - now you're commenting on 'Federal employees are the reason' - which is the statement the author made.

I contend Federal Employees ARE the reason for our nation's greatness and can cite examples; however, the point of the article - after you get done sharp-shooting the piece - Fed employees are tired of being fucked-with by politicians and an uniformed public.

[fj1200]

Which is it? Above you wrote the author claimed 'government is the reason for the country's greatness' - now you're commenting on 'Federal employees are the reason' - which is the statement the author made.

:rolleyes: They, "Federal employees," are the primary reason, Federal employees work for the federal government.


I contend Federal Employees ARE the reason for our nation's greatness and can cite examples; however, the point of the article - after you get done sharp-shooting the piece - Fed employees are tired of being fucked-with by politicians and an uniformed public.

My wife is a Federal employee and I'm pretty sure she's not saying that the country is great because of her work. Besides, I can support his/your position that they shouldn't be getting screwed over without having to buy his claiming of responsibility for the country's greatness. Like I said, they have a function but they are not the reason.

[darin]

:rolleyes: They, "Federal employees," are the primary reason, Federal employees work for the federal government.

you wrote it, not me :) Truth is the govt is not the employees.




... without having to buy his claiming of responsibility for the country's greatness. Like I said, they have a function but they are not the reason.

But the author is right.

One example. Case-rested

3335

[fj1200]

you wrote it, not me :) Truth is the govt is not the employees.

Yes, I did. You intend to quibble over details?


But the author is right.

One example. Case-rested

3335

He is wrong, the country is great because it was intended to have a limited Federal government. The author is example of the false reverse fallacy that the country is great, the Fed's run the country, I/employees work for the Fed's, employees are the reason.

The case is not great or lousy workers because if so I'm sure I can post just as many lousy ones.

[darin]

Yes, I did. You intend to quibble over details?


You misquoted/attributed the author.



He is wrong, the country is great because it was intended to have a limited Federal government. The author is example of the false reverse fallacy that the country is great, the Fed's run the country, I/employees work for the Fed's, employees are the reason.

The case is not great or lousy workers because if so I'm sure I can post just as many lousy ones.

Employees like the one i posted; and countless Soldiers, diplomats and Presidents - just as examples - ARE the reason our country is great. To deny that is to deny Service and its importance to maintaining our nation.

[fj1200]

You misquoted/attributed the author.

Nope, I directly quoted and made a logical extension.


Employees like the one i posted; and countless Soldiers, diplomats and Presidents - just as examples - ARE the reason our country is great. To deny that is to deny Service and its importance to maintaining our nation.

Nope, a "servant" is not the reason for a great country and maintenance, by definition, is not creating a great country in the first place. I just might argue that the military has zero bearing on whether our country is great or not, they merely protect what is great when threatened. I challenge you to name a great Medicare administrator and then explain how their greatness overrides the massive fraud inherent in it as well as its lack of future sustainability.

A President CAN be great if he furthers the underlying factors, free markets, free people, etc., that enhance its greatness while a President CAN be a failure when they don't.

[LuvRPgrl]

Filling up my soda cup and popping the pop corn.!:laugh:

[darin]

Nope, I directly quoted and made a logical extension.

...you made a foolish extension to prove a point.



Nope, a "servant" is not the reason for a great country and maintenance, by definition, is not creating a great country in the first place. I just might argue that the military has zero bearing on whether our country is great or not, they merely protect what is great when threatened. I challenge you to name a great Medicare administrator and then explain how their greatness overrides the massive fraud inherent in it as well as its lack of future sustainability.

A President CAN be great if he furthers the underlying factors, free markets, free people, etc., that enhance its greatness while a President CAN be a failure when they don't.


President Reagan - made our nation better; great. Our millions of Veterans make / made us great.

If 'some' employees hinder our nation's greatness, and 'some' federal employees make us or promote greatness, then "Employees" make us great is a true statement. You want to disagree with the guy based on your unreasonable extension of the guy's statements. Fine. Don't pass it off as "logical".

[fj1200]

...you made a foolish extension to prove a point.

Dead on, your defense of him proves it.


President Reagan - made our nation better; great. Our millions of Veterans make / made us great.

If 'some' employees hinder our nation's greatness, and 'some' federal employees make us or promote greatness, then "Employees" make us great is a true statement. You want to disagree with the guy based on your unreasonable extension of the guy's statements. Fine. Don't pass it off as "logical".

Reagan's policies enhanced the virtues that make our country great. Veterans defend those virtues, they didn't create them.

Ullner doesn't even agree with you.

rather, we are a primary reason why the United States remains as great as it is.
Great employees are simply employees, a great employee sweeping the floors doesn't impact the country, he's just doing his job. You didn't address my two scenarios.

You want to agree with the guy because it validates your work and position, see it for what it is. See what I did there?

[darin]

Dead on, your defense of him proves it.



Saying my defense proves you made a foolish extension is childish at best.



Reagan's policies enhanced the virtues that make our country great. Veterans defend those virtues, they didn't create them.


Lemmegitthisstraight - You are saying Veterans and others did NOT 'Make the country Great' - only the supposed VIRTUES the country otherwise had made/make us great?

No amount of virtue EVER made anything great. Without action virtues are useless; moreover, action is the required to make the virtue worth a shit.

Thus, as extention of the virtue, its those who serve the nation which make the nation great. A bunch of virtues sitting around in a room somewhere, smoking pot, drinking beer - or whatever virtues happen to do apart from action - never solved anything.

Those in service to the nation ARE the virtues; the physical representation of what makes America great.



Ullner doesn't even agree with you.

Great employees are simply employees, a great employee sweeping the floors doesn't impact the country, he's just doing his job. You didn't address my two scenarios.

You may wanna go back and re-read with understanding.

I wrote: Our Federal employees indeed make us/contribute to our nation's greatness. You wrote, paraphrase "oh yeah? Well some are worthless!" to which I answered:

SOME being worthless doesn't make the following statement untrue: "Our Federal employees make us/contribute to our nation's greatness". Then I explained 'why'.

I'll do it again, as simply as I can for you:

"If SOME employees are awesome, and SOME are bad, the statement: "Employees are Awesome" is true because the measure of employees (in this case 'some' is the measure) is irrelevant.



You want to agree with the guy because it validates your work and position, see it for what it is. See what I did there?[/QUOTE]

[DragonStryk72]

You misquoted/attributed the author.



Employees like the one i posted; and countless Soldiers, diplomats and Presidents - just as examples - ARE the reason our country is great. To deny that is to deny Service and its importance to maintaining our nation.

no, they aren't, and I say this as one of those soldiers, because you know what? Every country I've been has soldiers, diplomats, and leaders. Every single last one.

The greatness of America lies in its founding principles, and in the unique degree of freedom that we all live under here. We were the first country to really lay out that people had inherent rights just by the point of being people, and that the government required limitations in order to serve the greater liberty of the people. It's in the way we integrate other cultures into our own, and in the people themselves, who in every great disaster that has befallen our nation have risen up to aid. On 9/11, people moved to help clear rubble containing the bodies of the dead, and so many people gave blood that the Red Cross was sending them away because they couldn't take anymore. We send care packages to soldiers we don't even know, women joined the workforce in WWII to help support the war. It goes on and on, and none of it are examples of federal bureaucrats just doing their daily job.

[fj1200]

Saying my defense proves you made a foolish extension is childish at best.

:rolleyes: Whatever.


Lemmegitthisstraight - You are saying Veterans and others did NOT 'Make the country Great' - only the supposed VIRTUES the country otherwise had made/make us great?

No amount of virtue EVER made anything great. Without action virtues are useless; moreover, action is the required to make the virtue worth a shit.

Thus, as extention of the virtue, its those who serve the nation which make the nation great. A bunch of virtues sitting around in a room somewhere, smoking pot, drinking beer - or whatever virtues happen to do apart from action - never solved anything.

Those in service to the nation ARE the virtues; the physical representation of what makes America great.

I can see why you want you and yours to be seen as THE virtue but it's just not true. You are in service to that which is great, you are not that which makes it great. Is the US THE greatest country in your opinion? If so, then you need to separate what sets our country apart from others. As DS points out, every country has exactly what you are claiming makes us great. They must be just as great because they have the same thing.

People in this country make the actions every day that make this country great and they have zero to do with being in Federal employment. They carry on their lives making positive improvements to the country and you have just told them that they are relegated behind a bureaucrat. I think they may rebel against that. A case in point; leading up to the late 70's this country was on an arc of ever encroaching government regulation and we were buried in malaise. Along comes a wave of deregulation that gave power back to the people, and away from government employees, and the country's well being took off. I'm not sure how you square that with Federal employees being THE virtue of the country.

I'll say it again because you may think I misspoke; the military and veterans didn't make the country great, they defended it with valor and incredible courage. I can't say enough positive about what they have done but they didn't take an oath to Federal employees, they took an oath to uphold the Constitution which is the basis for our greatness.


You may wanna go back and re-read with understanding.

I wrote: Our Federal employees indeed make us/contribute to our nation's greatness. You wrote, paraphrase "oh yeah? Well some are worthless!" to which I answered:

SOME being worthless doesn't make the following statement untrue: "Our Federal employees make us/contribute to our nation's greatness". Then I explained 'why'.

I'll do it again, as simply as I can for you:

"If SOME employees are awesome, and SOME are bad, the statement: "Employees are Awesome" is true because the measure of employees (in this case 'some' is the measure) is irrelevant.

I'm sorry but that doesn't even make sense. My response came after you "rested your case" on the example of one man, a fine man I have no doubt but many others are barely pulling their weight. How about we find a couple of fast and furious bureaucrats who do more to weaken the central government's credibility than the many positives that you want to point out. Your statement just doesn't hold up your premise that Federal employees make us great.

[darin]

I really can't explain it more basic for you. Here's trying again:

Fact #1: People go to disneyland.
Fact #2: I am not going to disneyland.

Me going, or not - or YOU going or not, or even the head of the FDA going or not doesn't chance the truth in fact #1.


Fact: Our Servants make our nation Great
Fact: Some servants are free-loaders.

You don't seem to agree with what the author wrote, but can't explain it logically, so you make shit up. That's FINE if its your opinion.

[Dilloduck]

Some people who happened to be federal employees helped make our nation great. Some who were not federal employees helped too.

[darin]

Some people who happened to be federal employees helped make our nation great. Some who were not federal employees helped too.

Rosa Parks, Henry Ford, jimnyc...etc.

[DragonStryk72]

I really can't explain it more basic for you. Here's trying again:

Fact #1: People go to disneyland.
Fact #2: I am not going to disneyland.

Me going, or not - or YOU going or not, or even the head of the FDA going or not doesn't chance the truth in fact #1.


Fact: Our Servants make our nation Great
Fact: Some servants are free-loaders.

You don't seem to agree with what the author wrote, but can't explain it logically, so you make shit up. That's FINE if its your opinion.

And as to my points?

[darin]

Your points? Your points were great and I can see by them, you agree with me.

Our nation's principles were canonized by, acted-upon by, defended by, and they are maintained by our People. Our public servants carry the torch. Our country is great because we maintain our country through the service of our citizens. :)

[DragonStryk72]

Your points? Your points were great and I can see by them, you agree with me.

Our nation's principles were canonized by, acted-upon by, defended by, and they are maintained by our People. Our public servants carry the torch. Our country is great because we maintain our country through the service of our citizens. :)

Wow, you put some spin on that. I literally laid out that none of my examples contained federal employees, nor were the initiatives launched by federal employees, just ordinary people, not bureaucrats. Your idea that our federal employees MAKE this country great is wrong, I flat out said it. I did not agree with you, and still do not agree with you that federal employees make us great.

It is the whole of our citizenry that makes us great, not one group or another, and in the founding principles that we all hold to, whether or not we serve.

[darin]

Wow, you put some spin on that. I literally laid out that none of my examples contained federal employees, nor were the initiatives launched by federal employees, just ordinary people, not bureaucrats. Your idea that our federal employees MAKE this country great is wrong, I flat out said it. I did not agree with you, and still do not agree with you that federal employees make us great.

It is the whole of our citizenry that makes us great, not one group or another, and in the founding principles that we all hold to, whether or not we serve.


Our Citizens make us great. Our citizens design our government. Our citizens work for our government. Our government-employed citizens make our nation great. The reason you have trouble with the statement, IMO, is you are conditioned to blame.

(shrug).

So - yes, what you wrote SUPPORTS the statement "Government employees make our nation great" - but I believe you are surprised you feel that way because you don't WANT to feel that way.

Do Soldiers make our nation great? If so, how about the people who build the MRAPs our Soldiers use?

(shrug).

You're coming across a little like Gabby - she detests things she's not a part of, out of principle.

[jimnyc]

Our citizens make us great. I can prove that. If I left this country, the country would suck more. Since MFM DID leave the country, our country sucks less. Proof! :beer:

[fj1200]

I really can't explain it more basic for you. Here's trying again:

Fact #1: People go to disneyland.
Fact #2: I am not going to disneyland.

Me going, or not - or YOU going or not, or even the head of the FDA going or not doesn't chance the truth in fact #1.

Fact: Our Servants make our nation Great
Fact: Some servants are free-loaders.

You don't seem to agree with what the author wrote, but can't explain it logically, so you make shit up. That's FINE if its your opinion.

Make up a hundred more different ways to say the same thing doesn't change that I disagree with your/his basic premise. Citizens that honor and uphold the virtues that this country was founded on make our country great; the primary basis being our virtues. Which makes your first "fact" not one at all.

I already stated that I can agree with his overriding point but he overplayed his hand by saying...


We are not a drain on the national economy; rather, we are a primary reason why the United States remains as great as it is.
He should have just made his point. You'll have to point out the "shit" that I made up.


Some people who happened to be federal employees helped make our nation great. Some who were not federal employees helped too.
... by honoring and advancing our virtues.


Our Citizens make us great. Our citizens design our government. Our citizens work for our government. Our government-employed citizens make our nation great. The reason you have trouble with the statement, IMO, is you are conditioned to blame.

(shrug).

Nice redirect and avoidance. :rolleyes:

You still haven't addressed my scenarios.

[darin]

^^ I can lead a horse to water...its all I can do.

[logroller]

Well perhaps I'm just a idealist, but wouldn't it be more accurate to say America is great because of American ideals: freedom, liberty, justice for all. Are there some diligent bureaucrats that promote these ideals, sure, but they're not solely engaged in this effort; nor are they solely deserving of the credit.

[darin]

Okay - other than the use of that phrase, what do you think about 'stop picking on Fed workers' in terms of pay, or in terms of 'ridicule' - when there are elements of the budget, etc, 10000x larger, etc?

[DragonStryk72]

Our Citizens make us great. Our citizens design our government. Our citizens work for our government. Our government-employed citizens make our nation great. The reason you have trouble with the statement, IMO, is you are conditioned to blame.

(shrug).

So - yes, what you wrote SUPPORTS the statement "Government employees make our nation great" - but I believe you are surprised you feel that way because you don't WANT to feel that way.

Do Soldiers make our nation great? If so, how about the people who build the MRAPs our Soldiers use?

(shrug).

You're coming across a little like Gabby - she detests things she's not a part of, out of principle.

Our People as a whole, serving or not, are what make our country great. You are the one who's playing the spin game, dmp. Either disprove it, or move along.

Don't hand me some crap like this above and think you get around it.

[logroller]

Okay - other than the use of that phrase, what do you think about 'stop picking on Fed workers' in terms of pay, or in terms of 'ridicule' - when there are elements of the budget, etc, 10000x larger, etc?
Fwiw, I think you make America great! I just don't feel comfortable saying government workers make America great. Anymore than I'd say americans make America great.... Because Certainly not all do.

[darin]

Fwiw, I think you make America great! I just don't feel comfortable saying government workers make America great. Anymore than I'd say americans make America great.... Because Certainly not all do.


Thanks man. Certainly all do not; hey, at LEAST we're sucking off the Gov't Teet by working 40hrs a week; as opposed to welfare, etc. :) Course, in Iraq, I was sucking off that teet to the tune of $800/day, 7 days a week... If I were a Contractor, however, the first $90k I made (in a 1 year assignment) would be COMPLETELY free of Fed Tax. As a Gov't employee, my 90-day stay (came home due to injury) got me in the 'butt-raped' tax bracket. :(

(sigh).

:beers:

[fj1200]

^^ I can lead a horse to water...its all I can do.

Considering that you're wandering in an intellectual desert... :p


Okay - other than the use of that phrase, what do you think about 'stop picking on Fed workers' in terms of pay, or in terms of 'ridicule' - when there are elements of the budget, etc, 10000x larger, etc?

I don't think anyone disputed it. Certain programs are certainly worthy of ridicule but that's not necessarily the workers fault.

[darin]

When you realize you're wrong it's fine to say "ya know, point proven." and move-on, instead of sticking to logical fallacy for the sake of sticking to your fallacy. :)

[fj1200]

When you realize you're wrong it's fine to say "ya know, point proven." and move-on, instead of sticking to logical fallacy for the sake of sticking to your fallacy. :)

When it happens I'll consider your advice. Until then you might actually want to address the points raised as well as realize that I already pointed out your error in fallacy.

[Intense]

Great 'rant' about our elected officials using us as pawns in their game.

Circles, within circles, within circles. It must be nice to be so insulated. :laugh:

[darin]

When it happens I'll consider your advice. Until then you might actually want to address the points raised as well as realize that I already pointed out your error in fallacy.

basically, you've resorted to "no...YOU are!"

:)

[fj1200]

basically, you've resorted to "no...YOU are!"

:)

Nope, shall I point out everything you've ignored in this thread to hold onto your opinion?

[darin]

Nope, shall I point out everything you've ignored in this thread to hold onto your opinion?


Absolutely - point out any relevant point you've made; include my counter-points to be fair. Understand you made some points I didn't adress for probably one or two reasons: First, it may have been off-topic. Secondly, I might have agreed with the point.

[Wind Song]

Nothing more bureaucratic than the military, or should I say, Halliburton?

[fj1200]

Absolutely - point out any relevant point you've made; include my counter-points to be fair. Understand you made some points I didn't adress for probably one or two reasons: First, it may have been off-topic. Secondly, I might have agreed with the point.

:facepalm99: Just reread the thread. Save us all some time.

[darin]

Right. Your valid points were addressed and countered successfully. :)

[fj1200]

:laugh:

[fj1200]

Absolutely - point out any relevant point you've made; include my counter-points to be fair. Understand you made some points I didn't adress for probably one or two reasons: First, it may have been off-topic. Secondly, I might have agreed with the point.

Allrighty.


^Not because of some blanket statement made by a bureaucrat who claimed he is the primary reason for our greatness. It's like Buffett's secretary claiming that Berkshire Hathaway is great because of the work of secretaries. She and he may have necessary functions but they are not the reason the country is great.


Like I said, they have a function but they are not the reason.


He is wrong, the country is great because it was intended to have a limited Federal government. The author is example of the false reverse fallacy that the country is great, the Fed's run the country, I/employees work for the Fed's, employees are the reason.


Nope, a "servant" is not the reason for a great country and maintenance, by definition, is not creating a great country in the first place. I just might argue that the military has zero bearing on whether our country is great or not, they merely protect what is great when threatened. I challenge you to name a great Medicare administrator and then explain how their greatness overrides the massive fraud inherent in it as well as its lack of future sustainability.


Great employees are simply employees, a great employee sweeping the floors doesn't impact the country, he's just doing his job. You didn't address my two scenarios.


I can see why you want you and yours to be seen as THE virtue but it's just not true. You are in service to that which is great, you are not that which makes it great. Is the US THE greatest country in your opinion? If so, then you need to separate what sets our country apart from others. As DS points out, every country has exactly what you are claiming makes us great. They must be just as great because they have the same thing.

People in this country make the actions every day that make this country great and they have zero to do with being in Federal employment. They carry on their lives making positive improvements to the country and you have just told them that they are relegated behind a bureaucrat. I think they may rebel against that. A case in point; leading up to the late 70's this country was on an arc of ever encroaching government regulation and we were buried in malaise. Along comes a wave of deregulation that gave power back to the people, and away from government employees, and the country's well being took off. I'm not sure how you square that with Federal employees being THE virtue of the country.


Make up a hundred more different ways to say the same thing doesn't change that I disagree with your/his basic premise. Citizens that honor and uphold the virtues that this country was founded on make our country great; the primary basis being our virtues. Which makes your first "fact" not one at all.

He should have just made his point. You'll have to point out the "shit" that I made up.

You still haven't addressed my scenarios.


When it happens I'll consider your advice. Until then you might actually want to address the points raised as well as realize that I already pointed out your error in fallacy.

:cool: