The Dark Side of a Divided America

[fj1200]

The Dark Side of a Divided White America (http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/Articles/2012/02/16/The-Dark-Side-of-a-Divided-White-America.aspx#page1)
...
“The white working class has deteriorated substantially on those dimensions. It’s fallen away from some central cultural institutions that have been crucial to what used to be called the American way of life,” he told The Fiscal Times this week. “Meanwhile, a new upper class has developed a distinctive culture in their delayed marriage and childbearing; in child-rearing practices; at work; in their comparatively sparse exposure to mainstream film and television products; and in their increasing geographic isolation. They’re increasingly ignorant of how the rest of America lives.”

With those at the top and bottom barely interacting, Murray argues that American culture is not just coming apart at the seams – it’s already there. “It’s a bad thing for people who have a great deal of influence not to know what kind of country they’re governing,” he says. The solution? “America’s new upper class must once again fall in love with what makes America different,” he states in his book.
...

Opinions?

[Nukeman]

Opinions?Read the article, I can see many of his points he brought up in the article. I for one agree whole heartedly that businesses place WAY to much IMPORTANCE on a degree. There are so many talented people out ther that NEVER get a chance due to the lack of a degree.

Prime example..

Pharmacist in the 70-early 80's it was a 2 year degree with a previous degree, mid 80's to early 90's it was a 4 year degree, late 90's to today it is 6 years (2 pre-pharm, and 4 graduate level) you come out with a Pharm D. A doctor of pharmacy.. REALLY.... REALLY do we need to continue to add and add, all this does is drive up the cost of education and price the middle class out of education.

Now the rich will continue to go to school and get the degrees and the poor will continue to have the opportunity to go on the govt dime, meanwhile the middle class will suffer through and eventually when that bubble burst we will see changes,

My wife and I have discussed this in depth with our children. We have told them we will help them pay for college as long as it is in a MARKETABLE degree not some bullshit degree that they wont be able to find a job in.

[Little-Acorn]

“Meanwhile, a new upper class has developed a distinctive culture in their delayed marriage and childbearing; in child-rearing practices; at work; in their comparatively sparse exposure to mainstream film and television products; and in their increasing geographic isolation."


???

Who is that?

[OCA]

:link:


:link:

Oops, just saw it.

[SassyLady]

???

Who is that?

I know lots of people like this. Farmers in my area .... grow organic products, no tv or internet.

[fj1200]

Oops, just saw it.

Sorry, didn't mean to hide it. Niall Ferguson in Newsweek also had a good article on it awhile back.

I think this is it:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2012/01/15/niall-ferguson-a-conservative-take-on-america-s-economic-divide.html

[avatar4321]

The fact is there is no American culture anymore. We are a divided people. The values that made us Americans are readily ignored by a majority of the people.

The only way to change things is to change who we are and encourage others to do the same. This is something that the government can't help us with.

[Dilloduck]

Feel free to change all you want but PLEASE don't encourage me to change. There are enough people already damn near forcing me to.
Most of the changes I've seen lately are for the worse anyway and when "political correctness" came along they may as well have changed the name of the country too.

[Abbey Marie]

“Meanwhile, a new upper class has developed a distinctive culture in their delayed marriage and childbearing; in child-rearing practices; at work; in their comparatively sparse exposure to mainstream film and television products; and in their increasing geographic isolation. They’re increasingly ignorant of how the rest of America lives.”

1. I guess I don't see how tv and film give us a true picture of how "the rest of America lives". Fictional TV is usually populated by oddball or well-off characters, and especially cops, lawyers, and doctors.

2. Re: "the news". If an alien came to my area and just watched the news, he would think the whole country was a gun-fighting, sports-obsessed ghetto. I am not seeing much coverage of mainstream middle class America.

[fj1200]

1. I guess I don't see how tv and film give us a true picture of how "the rest of America lives". Fictional TV is usually populated by oddball or well-off characters, and especially cops. lawyers, and doctors.

2. Re: "the news". If an alien came to my area and just watched the news, he would think the whole country was a gun-fighting, sports-obsessed ghetto. I am not seeing much coverage of mainstream middle class America.

I think the point is that this group gets their information via the media, with all its faults, rather than being immersed in it on a daily basis. There has been a move away from the central institutions that all used to be part of and towards separate institutions that are insulated from each other. The social mores that we all used to share and were a bedrock of society are only being continued by the upper middle class that will pass those along to their children.

[LuvRPgrl]

The fact is there is no American culture anymore. We are a divided people. The values that made us Americans are readily ignored by a majority of the people.

The only way to change things is to change who we are and encourage others to do the same. This is something that the government can't help us with.

people talk alot about ideas, and solutions, but the solutions are always addressing the symptoms and not the root problem.

overall, the basic root problem destroying america is no fault divorce, hands down. Ultimately, almost all our problems that have grown or or been created in the last 35 y;ears, stems from that.

we are no longer a culture that puts marriage and family first...

[fj1200]

people talk alot about ideas, and solutions, but the solutions are always addressing the symptoms and not the root problem.

overall, the basic root problem destroying america is no fault divorce, hands down. Ultimately, almost all our problems that have grown or or been created in the last 35 y;ears, stems from that.

we are no longer a culture that puts marriage and family first...

DING, DING, DING, WINNER, WINNER, WINNER...

although I don't know if I agree with your root problem but nevertheless...

[LuvRPgrl]

DING, DING, DING, WINNER, WINNER, WINNER...

although I don't know if I agree with your root problem but nevertheless...

Im curious what you think it is.
I know there are more than one, maybe, probably about three main ones. Sometimes root problems are actually a subset of another root problem , if you know what I mean.

I think it is incredable how many problems go back to fatherless households. and, for Christians, even that is a subset "ROOT PROBLEM" of US becoming more and more secular, which I also think is true.

[fj1200]

Im curious what you think it is.
I know there are more than one, maybe, probably about three main ones. Sometimes root problems are actually a subset of another root problem , if you know what I mean.

I think it is incredable how many problems go back to fatherless households. and, for Christians, even that is a subset "ROOT PROBLEM" of US becoming more and more secular, which I also think is true.

Hmm, I think divorce was to specific but fatherless households is general enough. But even those could be seen as symptoms and not the root. What did the war on poverty do to the family structure? What did neglect of public schools do to getting kids ready for a skilled job as an adult? What did a slowly eroding business climate do? Those are just a couple of questions which lead to the root problems IMO.

[SassyLady]

Hmm, I think divorce was to specific but fatherless households is general enough. But even those could be seen as symptoms and not the root. What did the war on poverty do to the family structure? What did neglect of public schools do to getting kids ready for a skilled job as an adult? What did a slowly eroding business climate do? Those are just a couple of questions which lead to the root problems IMO.

What about the fatherless households that are not due to divorce....but death, or being deployed for long periods of time.

Since the beginning of time fathers have gone off for long periods of time to hunt and or protect their families/country. What of those times?

[fj1200]

^I'm pretty sure we had those scenarios in 1960.

Among those 30 to 49 in the blue-collar community, 84 percent were married in 1960 and only 48 percent in 2010. In 1962, 96 percent of children were living with both biological parents; by 2004, the proportion was 37 percent. Meanwhile, the share of households with someone working at least 40 hours a week dropped from 81 percent in 1960 to 60 percent in 2008.

Info from Charles Murray of the American Enterprise Institute, from his new book -- "Coming Apart: the State of White America, 1960-2010"

[Abbey Marie]

What about the fatherless households that are not due to divorce....but death, or being deployed for long periods of time.

Since the beginning of time fathers have gone off for long periods of time to hunt and or protect their families/country. What of those times?

In both cases, I think the child feels varying degrees of loss, but not necessarily abandonment. Nor would it feel that it was his or her fault, as children sometimes do in divorce situations.

In the case of deployment at least, it is hoped that the parent will at some point return home, whereas in divorce...

The structure of the family will be stretched and stressed in any case, but I think the reasons for the change can make a big difference in the effect.

[LuvRPgrl]

In both cases, I think the child feels varying degrees of loss, but not necessarily abandonment. Nor would it feel that it was his or her fault, as children sometimes do in divorce situations.

In the case of deployment at least, it is hoped that the parent will at some point return home, whereas in divorce...

The structure of the family will be stretched and stressed in any case, but I think the reasons for the change can make a big difference in the effect.

as for following the clues to get to the root problem, I think we could isolate fatherless households to divorced fathers, and single motherhood as a point on the tree.

Having analyzed this, I also came to the conclusion it mostly stemmed from men who had kids at home and never returned from WWII.
Interestingly enough, several other unique events in history occured. THE widespread ownership of tv's, technology reaching a certain level, mobility because of cars,,,
most, if not all the other causes though cannot be dealt with, you cant eliminate technology or mobility, but we can change our divorce laws to create stronger families once again.

But in the public realm, the arguement for no fault divorce goes mostly uncontested, although in a real and honest debate, no fault divorce would fold like a Christmas card in an envelope.

To show even more examples of symptoms, today they are discussing if a fight by two 11 year olds at school, could result in manslaughter charges because one of the girls died hours after the fight.
then there are the problems heretofore non existent.
ADHD,
drugs,
suicide levels
levels of teen prgnancy
diabetes
obesity

[avatar4321]

Feel free to change all you want but PLEASE don't encourage me to change. There are enough people already damn near forcing me to.
Most of the changes I've seen lately are for the worse anyway and when "political correctness" came along they may as well have changed the name of the country too.

No one can force you to do anything Dillo. Nor would I attempt to. I will always invite people to change. Encourage them to improve their lives and empower themselves. But ultimately the decision is theirs.


people talk alot about ideas, and solutions, but the solutions are always addressing the symptoms and not the root problem.

overall, the basic root problem destroying america is no fault divorce, hands down. Ultimately, almost all our problems that have grown or or been created in the last 35 y;ears, stems from that.

we are no longer a culture that puts marriage and family first...

I dont intend this to be any indication that I disagree with you on the marriage and family. I firmly believe that the breakdown of the family will be the direct causes of the judgments that will come upon this people soon. We desperately need to fix the family if we are to do this, but I think the breakdown is still another symptom of an even deeper root problem: We have turned away from God as a people.

Look at the lives of the Founders. They all had intensive religious training. They were taught the principles of a good Christian life and while some of them were not as committed later in their lives, their Foundation in God intensively influenced their lives and their decisions. They were men of virtue. They held themselves accountable because of a belief in a Creator. They trusted in Divine Providence, yet they were also not afraid to work hard to do what was right even if it meant extreme hardship.

It is faith in God that empowers a man and a woman to remain married when things get difficult. It is faith in God that provides men with motivation to be accountable for their responsibilities. And yet, even people who believe in God are illiterate of the scriptures and make excuses of why the commandments and counsels of God don't apply to them.

I know that I've lived far below what God wants for me. I'm truly ashamed of that. And I've been trying to fix that alot lately. But we need individuals to do this on a wide scale. We need to be making choices to root our families in God, and honor our commitments to our spouses regardless. We need to demonstrate these things to our children who are even more illiterate in the matters of God than we are.

The only thing keeping this nation together right now is materialism. What's going to happen when our economy continues to have problems? What happens if the economy actually collapses as some think? What will hold us together then? We are looking at some dark times ahead of us because we will see violence escalate. We will see the economy continue to flounder because we aren't living the principles that produce value. We aren't taking responsibility for our lives. We are looking for a scapegoat. The Rich! The Jew! The White Man! The Black Man! Those commies! Or those Fascist conservatives!

The problem isn't others. The problem is we are corrupted and dont even realize it. We've let a cancer infect our society and it's infecting our lives as well but we can't see it clearly.

I'm a student of history. The path we are on has happened before. It's not a pretty one. We need to restore God to our lives. We need to start living the principles taught in the scriptures because those principles are what will give us prosperity and happiness. We need to take up our responsibilities, because that is precisely what self-government is. It's doing what we are responsible for without someone putting a gun to our head to do it. We especially need to restore our families and honor our commitments to our spouse and children. We need to make sure they are taught everything I just mentioned and internalize it.

This is going to be a radical change. It's going to take time. But I believe it's possible. My experience with the Holy Spirit tells me that the Atonement of Jesus Christ can change our lives, not just our behavior, but our very nature. But it requires repentence on our part. We have to look at our lives and find the things that arent in line with God's standards and take action (or exercise faith) to change it. It may not be easy at first, but as we exercise faith and put effort into it, the grace of God will strengthen us so we can rise above it. Ive seen this happen many times in my own life. Ive changed behaviors I didnt think I could because I put effort into it and God changed me so that I no longer had the desire to do such things, but to do good things instead.

I know this post has gotten long. But this is something Im passionate about. We need to change our lives. We need to eliminate corruption in our lives and turn to God. We need to chose to become a humble people or God will humble us. We need to be an honest people. We need to be a people who take responsibility for ourselves and dont believe we are entitled to things from others. We need to be people of gratitude, civility, industry, frugality, etc. We need to build these virtues or we will perish. And what's worse our children will follow our bad examples.


Im curious what you think it is.
I know there are more than one, maybe, probably about three main ones. Sometimes root problems are actually a subset of another root problem , if you know what I mean.

I think it is incredable how many problems go back to fatherless households. and, for Christians, even that is a subset "ROOT PROBLEM" of US becoming more and more secular, which I also think is true.

I see that first hand at work everyday. Most of my clients in the juvenile court dont have a father figure in their lives.

[Abbey Marie]

I dont intend this to be any indication that I disagree with you on the marriage and family. I firmly believe that the breakdown of the family will be the direct causes of the judgments that will come upon this people soon. We desperately need to fix the family if we are to do this, but I think the breakdown is still another symptom of an even deeper root problem: We have turned away from God as a people.

Look at the lives of the Founders. They all had intensive religious training. They were taught the principles of a good Christian life and while some of them were not as committed later in their lives, their Foundation in God intensively influenced their lives and their decisions. They were men of virtue. They held themselves accountable because of a belief in a Creator. They trusted in Divine Providence, yet they were also not afraid to work hard to do what was right even if it meant extreme hardship.

It is faith in God that empowers a man and a woman to remain married when things get difficult. It is faith in God that provides men with motivation to be accountable for their responsibilities. And yet, even people who believe in God are illiterate of the scriptures and make excuses of why the commandments and counsels of God don't apply to them.

I know that I've lived far below what God wants for me. I'm truly ashamed of that. And I've been trying to fix that alot lately. But we need individuals to do this on a wide scale. We need to be making choices to root our families in God, and honor our commitments to our spouses regardless. We need to demonstrate these things to our children who are even more illiterate in the matters of God than we are.

The only thing keeping this nation together right now is materialism. What's going to happen when our economy continues to have problems? What happens if the economy actually collapses as some think? What will hold us together then? We are looking at some dark times ahead of us because we will see violence escalate. We will see the economy continue to flounder because we aren't living the principles that produce value. We aren't taking responsibility for our lives. We are looking for a scapegoat. The Rich! The Jew! The White Man! The Black Man! Those commies! Or those Fascist conservatives!

The problem isn't others. The problem is we are corrupted and dont even realize it. We've let a cancer infect our society and it's infecting our lives as well but we can't see it clearly.

I'm a student of history. The path we are on has happened before. It's not a pretty one. We need to restore God to our lives. We need to start living the principles taught in the scriptures because those principles are what will give us prosperity and happiness. We need to take up our responsibilities, because that is precisely what self-government is. It's doing what we are responsible for without someone putting a gun to our head to do it. We especially need to restore our families and honor our commitments to our spouse and children. We need to make sure they are taught everything I just mentioned and internalize it.

This is going to be a radical change. It's going to take time. But I believe it's possible. My experience with the Holy Spirit tells me that the Atonement of Jesus Christ can change our lives, not just our behavior, but our very nature. But it requires repentence on our part. We have to look at our lives and find the things that arent in line with God's standards and take action (or exercise faith) to change it. It may not be easy at first, but as we exercise faith and put effort into it, the grace of God will strengthen us so we can rise above it. Ive seen this happen many times in my own life. Ive changed behaviors I didnt think I could because I put effort into it and God changed me so that I no longer had the desire to do such things, but to do good things instead.

I know this post has gotten long. But this is something Im passionate about. We need to change our lives. We need to eliminate corruption in our lives and turn to God. We need to chose to become a humble people or God will humble us. We need to be an honest people. We need to be a people who take responsibility for ourselves and dont believe we are entitled to things from others. We need to be people of gratitude, civility, industry, frugality, etc. We need to build these virtues or we will perish. And what's worse our children will follow our bad examples.


BEST POST EVER



http://rantsofasassystew.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/02062008_i_love_it.jpg

[avatar4321]

BEST POST EVER






Im flattered that you think so. Now if only I could convince others of that.

[Wind Song]

Funny, how the OP crossed out "white" America. That is divisive in and of itself. No one addressing the racism in that?

Interesting how you're all avoiding that one.

[darin]

Funny, how the OP crossed out "white" America. That is divisive in and of itself. No one addressing the racism in that?

Interesting how you're all avoiding that one.

You are off topic - but I'll take your bait.

First: Divisive to WHOM? Then, you equate divisive with racist. you ARE a piece of work.

Could it be folks read it and simply didn't care? Not-caring is not racist. Not-caring is not divisive. It's 'not caring' - or, the ultimate in liberty; not caring what your neighbor does, as long as it doesn't harm the greater good/society/etc.

[Wind Song]

You are off topic - but I'll take your bait.

First: Divisive to WHOM? Then, you equate divisive with racist. you ARE a piece of work.

Could it be folks read it and simply didn't care? Not-caring is not racist. Not-caring is not divisive. It's 'not caring' - or, the ultimate in liberty; not caring what your neighbor does, as long as it doesn't harm the greater good/society/etc.


Could be you're all a bunch of racists, too. Or maybe just self-created class warriors.

Charles Murray has been beating up black people for thirty years.
The Republican Party built its majority in part by scapegoating poor blacks. Business elites and professional ideologues never liked working people of any hue.

[darin]

Could be you're all a bunch of racists, too. Or maybe just self-created class warriors.

Charles Murray has been beating up black people for thirty years.

No, actually. It cannot be, because we are not. If "stupid" was a race, then...I suppose we are racists. Might be why you feel so threatened? Afraid we'll burn a dictionary on your front lawn?

[Wind Song]

No, actually. It cannot be, because we are not. If "stupid" was a race, then...I suppose we are racists. Might be why you feel so threatened? Afraid we'll burn a dictionary on your front lawn?


White people endangered by their own backward culture? The idea that religious piety is the way out of poverty is bullshit. The U.S. has much less social mobility―the ability, for example, of someone born poor to make it out of poverty―than European countries like Denmark, a country that happens to be one of the least religious countries in the world.

You want to ban me again ****? Go ahead.

Does it make you feel powerful? He calls me a dick, but takes out the word d u m p as if it were a slur.

[darin]

White people endangered by their own backward culture? The idea that religious piety is the way out of poverty is bullshit. The U.S. has much less social mobility―the ability, for example, of someone born poor to make it out of poverty―than European countries like Denmark, a country that happens to be one of the least religious countries in the world.

You want to ban me again ****? Go ahead.

Does it make you feel powerful?


First - it's pretty fucking racist of you to likely assume we're white people here.

Secondly - nothing you just wrote has a flying-shit worth to do with anything else you've said in this thread. So, you have gone off topic AGAIN in this thread.

The way out of poverty? Easy. Hard work and self-responsibility. The way IN to poverty? Government programs/assistance creates generational poverty.

[Wind Song]

First - it's pretty fucking racist of you to likely assume we're white people here.

Secondly - nothing you just wrote has a flying-shit worth to do with anything else you've said in this thread. So, you have gone off topic AGAIN in this thread.

The way out of poverty? Easy. Hard work and self-responsibility. The way IN to poverty? Government programs/assistance creates generational poverty.

Ban me ****. It's easier than trying to debate me. How cute. **** took out his word. Yes, dmp, your name is a four letter word that should be deleted. Don't like the u in the middle?

[darin]

as you wish.

[fj1200]

Funny, how the OP crossed out "white" America. That is divisive in and of itself. No one addressing the racism in that?

Interesting how you're all avoiding that one.

Because it's irrelevant to the topic unless you can actually point out the racism. :rolleyes:

[fj1200]

It's easier than trying to debate me.

That's rich.

[logroller]

Back to an earlier question, as to the root of social demise-- I would say its a function of the physical isolation sought by suburban sprawl combined with the virtual isolation of information overload, which compounds to create a lack of social belonging.

[jimnyc]

I thought WS didn't like name calling?

[LuvRPgrl]

No one can force you to do anything Dillo. Nor would I attempt to. I will always invite people to change. Encourage them to improve their lives and empower themselves. But ultimately the decision is theirs.



I dont intend this to be any indication that I disagree with you on the marriage and family. I firmly believe that the breakdown of the family will be the direct causes of the judgments that will come upon this people soon. We desperately need to fix the family if we are to do this, but I think the breakdown is still another symptom of an even deeper root problem: We have turned away from God as a people.

Look at the lives of the Founders. They all had intensive religious training. They were t.

I wouldnt take it that way anyways.
Actually, I would have eventually brought the root of the problem down to God also, but I didnt want to see this get derailed into a relgious thread.

[Abbey Marie]

I thought WS didn't like name calling?

And I thought the woman with the avi of two women in bed, didn't ever bring up gay topics?

[LuvRPgrl]

And I thought the woman with the avi of two women in bed, didn't ever bring up gay topics?

Homos are simply in denial.
As much as they want to convince themselves and others that it is merely another lifestyle, it just wont happen. Comparing it to racism is disgusting and insulting to black people, and the black community says as much.
Fact is, it doesnt matter how hard or much the try, a large majority of people will always, correctly, identify homosexuality as abhorent behavior. Not healthy and destructive both physically, mentally and emotionaly.
Even in the PHILIPPINES, where homosexuality is about as much of a discussion as the amount of snow in Finland this year, the people mostly find it disgusting and gross seeing two men kiss,

The truth is, deep down inside she knows its true. She knows it abnormal, but doesnt want to recognize it, hence delusional. No matter how hard she, or anyone else trys to convince themselves that homos are normal, there will always be that nagging soft voice of God, letting them know its wrong.

Lastly, on the debate topic of homosexuality and "IS IT NORMAL OR NOT", I think all debates should be strictly carried out by heterosexuals only. No homos allowed in the debate, because we know the homos are going to do everything and anything they can to change peoples minds, including deceit, lying, etc etc. yea, 10% of the population is gay,,,,riggggggggggggggghht

[avatar4321]

White people endangered by their own backward culture? The idea that religious piety is the way out of poverty is bullshit. The U.S. has much less social mobility―the ability, for example, of someone born poor to make it out of poverty―than European countries like Denmark, a country that happens to be one of the least religious countries in the world.

You want to ban me again ****? Go ahead.

Does it make you feel powerful? He calls me a dick, but takes out the word d u m p as if it were a slur.

Religious piety is the way out of poverty. If you have religious piety, then you practice virtues such as: Hard work, frugality, charity, honesty, humility, patience, service, etc. All of these attributes will increase a persons wealth. If we marry and stay married, we have a much higher ability to produce wealth. Teaching children these principles will increase the wealth of our children.

[avatar4321]

Ban me ****. It's easier than trying to debate me. How cute. **** took out his word. Yes, dmp, your name is a four letter word that should be deleted. Don't like the u in the middle?

Of course it's easier than debating you. You're not really even trying here.