America is a joke...now [Archive] - Debate Policy

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x0Maximilian0x

02-25-2012, 03:32 AM

logroller

02-25-2012, 05:34 AM

Did I miss the punchline?

Gunny

02-25-2012, 10:05 AM

America is a joke...now
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America used to be a country of a pillar of strength and liberty...

America has evolved to a corrupt regime where there are laws in place to specifically uphold any entity in power.....

My next posts will explain how the corrupt America created a government that can arrest anyone and not give them one of our original constitutional rights about legal process.

America is evolving laws that every true American should wake up to.

When will the laws be abused that are in place?

How this connects to 9/11 I will bring to the table

Any American can be arrested and held forever without due process of the law. Any American can be arrested and not be elegible for the right to a trial with the show of evidence. Any American can be arrested simply by someone at the top of the pyramid scheme saying they are a terror suspect.

The arrested American accused of being a terror suspect does not have the right to a show of evidence in front of a trial by jury of their peers.

How can any true American justify supporting the direction America is going?

It is worse than this and will be back with more......

If you are who I think you are and you start posting PAGES of anti-US, conspiracy theory gobbeldy-gook, you and I SHALL have words. So whatever you have better be good, and I want to see some responses from YOU to the responses TO you.

jimnyc

02-25-2012, 10:14 AM

America is a joke...now
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

America used to be a country of a pillar of strength and liberty...

America has evolved to a corrupt regime where there are laws in place to specifically uphold any entity in power.....

My next posts will explain how the corrupt America created a government that can arrest anyone and not give them one of our original constitutional rights about legal process.

America is evolving laws that every true American should wake up to.

When will the laws be abused that are in place?

How this connects to 9/11 I will bring to the table

Any American can be arrested and held forever without due process of the law. Any American can be arrested and not be elegible for the right to a trial with the show of evidence. Any American can be arrested simply by someone at the top of the pyramid scheme saying they are a terror suspect.

The arrested American accused of being a terror suspect does not have the right to a show of evidence in front of a trial by jury of their peers.

How can any true American justify supporting the direction America is going?

It is worse than this and will be back with more......

Weren't you also going to be back "with more" about the anthrax attacks? All you posted in that thread was your conspiracy crap and not a bit of absolute proof of jack shit. I have a sneaky suspicion that this thread will be the same. You guys like to stretch things and make it sound like the government is out to get innocent citizens. Am I to believe from reading your post, that there is a viable threat that the government might swoop in and collect me up, with no charges and probable cause at all, hide me away from the public with no reason, no charges, and just leave me there to rot, and no on could do anything about it? Yeah, I remember reading such crap when the patriot act was first passed. Shouldn't we have detention camps all over and thousands of people missing since then?

Gunny

02-25-2012, 10:30 AM

Weren't you also going to be back "with more" about the anthrax attacks? All you posted in that thread was your conspiracy crap and not a bit of absolute proof of jack shit. I have a sneaky suspicion that this thread will be the same. You guys like to stretch things and make it sound like the government is out to get innocent citizens. Am I to believe from reading your post, that there is a viable threat that the government might swoop in and collect me up, with no charges and probable cause at all, hide me away from the public with no reason, no charges, and just leave me there to rot, and no on could do anything about it? Yeah, I remember reading such crap when the patriot act was first passed. Shouldn't we have detention camps all over and thousands of people missing since then?

If he's who I think he is (sorry, can't recall the userID at the time), he'll do EXACTLY what I stated previously. Post a thread of crap that's half a page long that only the bored would read, much less respond to. Then, when someone IS bored and responds, they never get responses. His conversations are one way. A "response" from him will just be another half-page of mindless words that in no way respond to any response to his last half-page of crap.

revelarts

02-25-2012, 11:08 AM

W...I have a sneaky suspicion that this thread will be the same. You guys like to stretch things and make it sound like the government is out to get innocent citizens. Am I to believe from reading your post, that there is a viable threat that the government might swoop in and collect me up, with no charges and probable cause at all, hide me away from the public with no reason, no charges, and just leave me there to rot, and no on could do anything about it? Yeah, I remember reading such crap when the patriot act was first passed. Shouldn't we have detention camps all over and thousands of people missing since then?
concerning the pat act
Will it take "thousands" before it pass your threshold of, I GUESS, just mistakes, or just sad flaws of a good but imperfect system of laws before you'd call it intentional abuse of innocents, ? ( I believed you've mentioned similar before in other threads. Not putting word in your mouth. just as your doing not when you Ask Max about innocents and patriot act that hes never mentioned directly right?)

I've listed for you before MANY patriot act abuses, others have more or less shrugged and said stuff like - oh well we've got to watch as gov't creeps beyond it's bounds i guess.-- but not really giving me a sense that anyone thinks it's THAT FAR out of line. Have you a number that's your line where it just to far? Does it have to get to a neighbor or a family member before you say hey the Gov't is Wrong here and it's not just a "bad apple" But it's the system and laws that allows it. Would the laws have to say exactly, "we will pick up innocent people anytime any where and jial without trail, before we admit that we might have a problem?
Many prosecutors are interpreting laws that way now it seems .

But here's another case, you might want to check out, it's pretty over the top but it's documented with video and court cases.
innocent person reports possible terrorism is ignored , she pushes it to the FBI and then she is targeted as "a domestic terrorist" with literally helicopters at her house.

DOCUMENTARY FILM “THE TERROR WITHIN”
“The Terror Within” (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1852949/) is a documentary film by Fleur De Lis Film Studios (http://www.imdb.com/company/co0282614/). It features an incredible true story of Julia Davis, a national security whistleblower (http://www.whistleblowers.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1181&Itemid=108) who was falsely declared a "Domestic Terrorist" and subjected to retaliation of unprecedented proportions by the Department of Homeland Security.
In spite of being extensively litigated and mentioned in a book, “Unsafe At Any Altitude” (http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/unsafe-at-any-altitude-joseph-j-trento/1008021991), these sensational events were suppressed from being covered by the media...

“The Terror Within” explores issues that have sparked nationwide controversy such as the USA PATRIOT Act and illegal tactics improperly used against law-abiding Americans under the guise of “the war on terror”. Julia Davis, a former federal officer with the Department of Homeland Security, discovered and reported a breach of national security at the largest and busiest land border crossing in the U.S. on 4th of July, 2004. When the DHS failed to act on her reports, she took her concerns to the FBI/JTTF.
Numerous intelligence alerts designated Independence Day as the “date to watch” of special importance. Files found within Osama Bin Laden's compound in 2011 confirmed that the 4th of July was in fact a date of planned terrorist attacks on the United States. The DHS was quick to close Julia Davis’ reports with "no action" and without any investigation.
Instead of correcting the shortcomings exposed by Julia’s report, prompted by the heads of the Agency in Washington, DC, the Department of Homeland Security started to investigate her. They’ve opened a total of 54 investigations against Julia Davis. The Department of Homeland Security is notorious for its brutal retaliatory tactics against courageous whistleblowers. Julia Davis was falsely accused of being a “Domestic Terrorist” and an “illegal alien” in an attempt by DHS/ICE to deport and denaturalize her. The agency falsely claimed that Julia served in the Russian Army and was a convicted murderer.
The documentary details unprecedented magnitude of retaliation and abuses of the PATRIOT Act in the case of Julia Davis. It will show American taxpayers how the DHS spent their money on warrantless surveillance, including aerial surveillance with a Blackhawk helicopter and a fixed-wing airplane, wiretaps, sneak and peek burglaries, Internet monitoring and On-Star tracking of the Davis family.
“The Terror Within” is jam-packed with actual footage of the Blackhawk helicopter/Special Response Team raid of the Davis residence, videotaped accounts of witnesses and perpetrators as well as extensive evidence obtained from court records. More time, manpower and military might is utilized to attack Julia Davis than the number of US Navy SEALS on the ground during the assault of Osama Bin Laden's compound in Pakistan. The warrantless search of the Davis home lasted much longer than the search of Bin Laden's lair.
After years of litigation and a recent settlement, it’s time for this outrageous case to receive the proper trial it deserves in the highest court of all – the court of public opinion. “The Terror Within” strives to ensure that such unconstitutional

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/addgNDfe8Tc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

I can post my previous list of patriot act abuses, TSA abuses, too if you like, but I guess since it's not "thousands" being rounded up it not really something to be concerned about.

jimnyc

02-25-2012, 11:32 AM

Will it take "thousands"

How about you list just FIVE people that have disappeared since the patriot act. Show me articles from their families showing that they are 100% innocent and have disappeared. I can think of only one case, and it was terror related. As for abuses, hell, we've had abuses in regular law enforcement since the beginning of law enforcement. Where exactly are all of these innocent Americans being held?

Fact is, the patriot act has brought about no more abuse than we already had. There are no signs of any abuse of ordinary every day American citizens.

But let's start with proof of 100% innocent Americans being targeted...

revelarts

02-25-2012, 11:44 AM

Specifically on the patriot act again

Statement of Senator Wyden
On Patriot Act Reauthorization
May 26, 2011 M. President, the United States Senate is now preparing to pass another four-year extension of the USA Patriot Act. I have served on the Intelligence Committee for a decade, and I want to deliver a warning this afternoon: when the American people find out how their government has secretly interpreted the Patriot Act, they will be stunned and they will be angry. And they will be asking senators, “Did you know what this law actually permits?” “Why didn’t you know before you voted on it?” The fact is that anyone can read the plain text of the Patriot Act, and yet many members of Congress have no idea how the law is being secretly interpreted by the executive branch, because that interpretation is classified.

It’s almost as if there are two Patriot Acts, and many members of Congress haven’t even read the one that matters. Our constituents, of course, are totally in the dark. Members of the public have no access to the executive branch’s secret legal interpretations, so they have no idea what their government thinks this law means.

Let me bring up some historical examples, to give you a clearer example of what I am talking about. And before I begin I want to be clear that I am not claiming that any of the specific activities that I am about to discuss are still happening today. I am bringing them up because I think they might help remind my colleagues how the American people tend to react when they learn about domestic surveillance activities that are inconsistent with what they think the law should allow. When Americans learn about intelligence activities that are consistent with their understanding of the law they buy more newspapers and read about these activities with interest and often admiration. But when people learn about intelligence activities that are outside the lines of what is generally believed to be permitted, public reaction tends to be quite negative.
Here’s my first example: The CIA was established by the National Security Act of 1947, which stated that the agency was “forbidden to have…law enforcement powers or internal security functions.” Members of Congress and legal experts interpreted that language as a “clear prohibition against any internal security function under any circumstances.”
A small group of CIA officials, however, had a different interpretation. They decided that the 1947 statute contained legal “gray areas” that allowed the CIA to monitor American citizens for possible contact with foreign agents. They believed this meant that they could secretly tap Americans’ phones, open their mail and plant listening devices in their homes, among other things. This secret legal interpretation led the CIA to maintain intelligence files on more than 10,000 American citizens including reporters, members of Congress and anti-war activists like Jane Fonda.
This small group of CIA officials kept the program – and their “gray area” justification of the program – a secret from the American people and most of the U.S. government because – they argued – revealing it would violate the agency’s responsibility to protect “intelligence sources and methods from unauthorized disclosure.”
Did the program stay a secret?
No, on December 22, 1974, investigative reporter Seymour Hersh detailed the program on the front page of the New York Times. The revelations – and the public uproar they inspired – led to the formation of the Church Committee, which spent nearly two years investigating questionable and illegal activity at the CIA. The Church Committee published fourteen reports detailing various intelligence abuses, which – in addition to illegal domestic surveillance – included programs designed to assassinate foreign leaders. The investigation led to executive orders reining in CIA authority and the creation of the House and Senate Intelligence Committees....

http://wyden.senate.gov/newsroom/press/release/?id=34eddcdb-2541-42f5-8f1d-19234030d91e

"Within six months of passing the Patriot Act, the Justice Department was conducting seminars on how to stretch the new wiretapping provisions to extend them beyond terror cases," Dan Dodson, a spokesman for the National Association of Criminal Defense Attorneys, told The Associated Press earlier this month. "They say they want the Patriot Act to fight terrorism, then, within six months, they are teaching their people how to use it on ordinary citizens."...

http://www.scn.org/ccapa/pa-article.html

revelarts

02-25-2012, 11:50 AM

How about you list just FIVE people that have disappeared since the patriot act. Show me articles from their families showing that they are 100% innocent and have disappeared. I can think of only one case, and it was terror related. As for abuses, hell, we've had abuses in regular law enforcement since the beginning of law enforcement. Where exactly are all of these innocent Americans being held?

Fact is, the patriot act has brought about no more abuse than we already had. There are no signs of any abuse of ordinary every day American citizens.

But let's start with proof of 100% innocent Americans being targeted...

100% innocent LOL,
disappeared... but show you where they are held... with articles from their families.
LOL

So if i show you 5 --under your conditions-- then you'll think the gov't got a problem Jim?

jimnyc

02-25-2012, 11:55 AM

100% innocent LOL,
disappeared... but show you where they are held... with articles from their families.
LOL

So if i show you 5 --under your conditions-- then you'll think the gov't got a problem Jim?

You guys are stating that the government can take innocent Americans and jail them indefinitely, without charges, without anything, and be done with them. I think any mistakes made by authorities are no more or less than in other means of law enforcement. I don't think there is some major conspiracy to use the act to indefinitely jail innocent people. You think otherwise. Prove your case.

revelarts

02-25-2012, 02:42 PM

You guys are stating that the government can take innocent Americans and jail them indefinitely, without charges, without anything, and be done with them. I think any mistakes made by authorities are no more or less than in other means of law enforcement. I don't think there is some major conspiracy to use the act to indefinitely jail innocent people. You think otherwise. Prove your case.

"You guys are stating that the government can take innocent Americans and jail them indefinitely, without charges, without anything, and be done with them."
That's what the laws allows at this point. As long as the innocent person is accused by authority X of "terrorism". It's not really an assumption, It's how Presidents Obama and Bush have read it. How many lawyers and Law professor understand it. Only people who don't think the gov't wants to do any harm seem to think otherwise.

"...I think any mistakes made by authorities are no more or less than in other means of law enforcement...."
Other means of Law Enforcement? what do you mean by that? Mistakes are Other means of laws enforcement?

"...there is some major conspiracy to use the act to indefinitely jail innocent people."
Who said anything about a conspiracy to jail innocent people. That not a goal. An oligarchies goal is to consolidate power and protect it's position. in our case the federal gov't and presidency is the means to BE ABLE TO fine, silence, jail or kill anyone they want whenever they feel theire positions threatened. Innocent people won't be bothered as long as they go along to get along. the Extra federal powers will even be used to get some real criminals that used legal dodges in the past. Trains ran on time in Germany, loyal innocent Germans and Soviets didn't have to worry ...much. the early days of new tyrannies are not bad for most people.

"...Prove your case."
Hmmm.. tyranny by accident of over trusting public and gov't officials over zealous to public saftey... gone overboard.
or A grand conspiracy.

Jim i can't even prove to you that GW Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and Blair Intentionally Lied to the world about WMD's with the evidence of Military officers, and personnel ,CIA, DIA and NSA operatives, UN inspectors, Iraqi informants, Presidential Staff members, and gov't memos to that effect.
I'm not going to attempt to "prove" to you anything about any larger conspiracies or power grabs when you can't or won't even admit to one that's plain as the sun.

I'd be wasting your time and mine.