Disciplining your child: how far is too far

[jimnyc]

I'm even all for spankings still, but even that will get you arrested these days. At what point does it go from discipline into abuse? At what point does it go from private family business to an issue where the state/police should intervene? I'm asking after reading the following article, where a 9 year old girl was forced to run for 3 hours. She was severely dehydrated, and had a seizure and died a few days later. This, IMO, is without a doubt wrong and abusive. But also, I think if they had her do some sort of physical activity, within reason, that would have been fine. But obviously they pushed the envelope. For example, when I played football, if we screwed up we were forced to run laps with all the equipment on. This is a good motivational tool for athletes. There's an obvious difference between a few laps and 3 straight hours, no fluids and fluids, and a 9 year old guy and an equivalent aged child in sports.

I point out the differences to show how some would be seen as normal and now this example being what they are calling murder.


2 charged in death of Ala girl forced to runATTALLA, Ala. (AP) — Roger Simpson said he looked down the road and saw a little girl running outside her home but didn't give it another thought. Police, however, said the man witnessed a murder in progress.

Authorities say 9-year-old Savannah Hardin died after being forced to run for three hours as punishment for having lied to her grandmother about eating candy bars. Severely dehydrated, the girl had a seizure and died days later. Now, her grandmother and stepmother who police say meted out the punishment were taken to jail Wednesday and face murder charges.

Witnesses told deputies Savannah was told to run and not allowed to stop for three hours on Friday, an Etowah County Sheriff's Office spokeswoman said. The girl's stepmother, 27-year-old Jessica Mae Hardin, called police at 6:45 p.m., telling them Savannah was having a seizure and was unresponsive.

Simpson said he saw a little girl running at around 4 p.m., but didn't see anybody chasing or coercing her.

"I saw her running down there, that's what I told the detectives," Simpson said from his home on a hill overlooking the Hardins. "But I don't see how that would kill her."

Authorities are still trying to determine whether Savannah was forced to run by physical coercion or by verbal commands. Deputies were told the girl was made to run after lying to her grandmother, 46-year-old Joyce Hardin Garrard, about having eaten the candy, sheriff's office spokeswoman Natalie Barton said.


http://news.yahoo.com/2-charged-death-ala-girl-forced-run-082216169.html

[Intense]

I'm even all for spankings still, but even that will get you arrested these days. At what point does it go from discipline into abuse? At what point does it go from private family business to an issue where the state/police should intervene? I'm asking after reading the following article, where a 9 year old girl was forced to run for 3 hours. She was severely dehydrated, and had a seizure and died a few days later. This, IMO, is without a doubt wrong and abusive. But also, I think if they had her do some sort of physical activity, within reason, that would have been fine. But obviously they pushed the envelope. For example, when I played football, if we screwed up we were forced to run laps with all the equipment on. This is a good motivational tool for athletes. There's an obvious difference between a few laps and 3 straight hours, no fluids and fluids, and a 9 year old guy and an equivalent aged child in sports.

I point out the differences to show how some would be seen as normal and now this example being what they are calling murder.



http://news.yahoo.com/2-charged-death-ala-girl-forced-run-082216169.html

Hard one. For starters, when you witness real harm being done. Even running the girl for 3 hours. What kind of condition was she in? How hot was it? How hydrated was she? In sports it's important to be observant, right? You bend when circumstance requires it. The Athlete could easily go past the point of no return without being aware of it. It's not all that uncommon. 9 Year old, 3 hour run, I think there might be some interesting history here. On the surface, it seems like abuse. That and stupidity.

[ConHog]

Hard one. For starters, when you witness real harm being done. Even running the girl for 3 hours. What kind of condition was she in? How hot was it? How hydrated was she? In sports it's important to be observant, right? You bend when circumstance requires it. The Athlete could easily go past the point of no return without being aware of it. It's not all that uncommon. 9 Year old, 3 hour run, I think there might be some interesting history here. On the surface, it seems like abuse. That and stupidity.

Yep, even hard ass coaches with highly trained athletes have to be completely aware of the condition of those athletes.

Personally I waterboard my children when they fuck up. Gotta teach them little bastards a lesson.

[darin]

Because we have more stupid people than highly intelligent; strike that. Because we have more foolish people than wise people, foolishness can be deadly.

The parents were NOT disciplining their child, they were seeking/getting REVENGE.

Discipline: Think Mr. Miyagi. Punishing a child doesn't necessarily teach a lesson. Punishing to me, equates too closely with revenge. Tit for Tat. Eye for an Eye.

My daughter has lied to me. Because my daughter has a level of wisdom beyond her biological age, I didn't 'punish' her - I taught her appropriate consequence.

The scenario in the OP bothers the heck out of me for a couple reasons - namely, it was a 'stupid' lesson. It was revenge.

Wanna stop your child after a lie? Give them a spanking, then LOVE ON THE KID. HOLD the kid. TALK with the kid. End things as quickly as it takes to learn the lesson.

[Shadow]

I'm even all for spankings still, but even that will get you arrested these days. At what point does it go from discipline into abuse? At what point does it go from private family business to an issue where the state/police should intervene? I'm asking after reading the following article, where a 9 year old girl was forced to run for 3 hours. She was severely dehydrated, and had a seizure and died a few days later. This, IMO, is without a doubt wrong and abusive. But also, I think if they had her do some sort of physical activity, within reason, that would have been fine. But obviously they pushed the envelope. For example, when I played football, if we screwed up we were forced to run laps with all the equipment on. This is a good motivational tool for athletes. There's an obvious difference between a few laps and 3 straight hours, no fluids and fluids, and a 9 year old guy and an equivalent aged child in sports.

I point out the differences to show how some would be seen as normal and now this example being what they are calling murder.



http://news.yahoo.com/2-charged-death-ala-girl-forced-run-082216169.html

I'm definately leaning toward abuse. Seems like a strange punishment for lying...3 hours of non stop running? There have been stories about trained athletes collapsing under those kind of circumstances. Makes you wonder what these people were thinking (obviously they weren't). I would almost be inclined to believe the ex husband... that the woman has a mental defect of some sort.

I also agree with DMP...talking it out is your best bet...deciding together what an appropriate punishment should be works pretty well also. The last time one of my kids lied...we talked it out,discussed why the lie was a bad idea and then decided that an appropriate punishment was having to stay home from a dance.

They learned actions have consequences and didn't feel like I was just being unreasonable or mean and treating them like babies (as my daughter likes to point out).

[ConHog]

Because we have more stupid people than highly intelligent; strike that. Because we have more foolish people than wise people, foolishness can be deadly.

The parents were NOT disciplining their child, they were seeking/getting REVENGE.

Discipline: Think Mr. Miyagi. Punishing a child doesn't necessarily teach a lesson. Punishing to me, equates too closely with revenge. Tit for Tat. Eye for an Eye.

My daughter has lied to me. Because my daughter has a level of wisdom beyond her biological age, I didn't 'punish' her - I taught her appropriate consequence.

The scenario in the OP bothers the heck out of me for a couple reasons - namely, it was a 'stupid' lesson. It was revenge.

Wanna stop your child after a lie? Give them a spanking, then LOVE ON THE KID. HOLD the kid. TALK with the kid. End things as quickly as it takes to learn the lesson.

Aren't you the same guy who advocated teaching kids a lesson about their parents by not giving them lunch? I'm not flaming, just seems like an odd juxtaposition of stances.

[darin]

I also agree with DMP...talking it out is your best bet...deciding together what an appropriate punishment should be works pretty well also. The last time one of my kids lied...we talked it out,discussed why the lie was a bad idea and then decided that an appropriate punishment was having to stay home from a dance.


Sometimes 'talking it out' isn't the right answer. When my kids were todlers, or younger, and they didn't obey, they got a swat instantly. Very small kids can't reason very well. When my kids were little, I didn't expect them to understand the laws of physics surrounding the events of a car smashing their heads, if the kid ran out into the street. I needed them - for their survival to simply respond when I told them to stop. As they got older, they grew in understanding about 'objects in motion', etc. So - for young kids, beat 'em (lovingly). As the kid gains levels of understanding, move to discipline that makes more sense. Situation dictate. :)


Aren't you the same guy who advocated teaching kids a lesson about their parents by not giving them lunch? I'm not flaming, just seems like an odd juxtaposition of stances.

No, I'm not the same guy because I never wrote that.
It's stupid to make shit up, then try to soften the lie by adding 'aren't you the guy' tags. Would be like if I wrote "Aren't you the guy who advocated raping the family dog, killing it, then selling the pet's meat for profit"? Passive-aggressive much? :)

[Shadow]

Sometimes 'talking it out' isn't the right answer. When my kids were todlers, or younger, and they didn't obey, they got a swat instantly. Very small kids can't reason very well. When my kids were little, I didn't expect them to understand the laws of physics surrounding the events of a car smashing their heads, if the kid ran out into the street. I needed them - for their survival to simply respond when I told them to stop. As they got older, they grew in understanding about 'objects in motion', etc. So - for young kids, beat 'em (lovingly). As the kid gains levels of understanding, move to discipline that makes more sense. Situation dictate. :)





Yes,I agree...I was pretty much refering to children 9 and older. I think by 9/10 they are in middle school aren't they?

[Abbey Marie]

Three hours of running for lying about candy, no less, is so out of whack with the offense, that I suspect this girl was living in fear a lot of the time. She probably lied to escape excessive punishment to begin with. :(

I'm surprised people are even debating whether this was abuse.

[cadet]

Three hours of running for lying about candy, no less, is so out of whack with the offense, that I suspect this girl was living in fear a lot of the time. She probably lied to escape excessive punishment to begin with. :(

I'm surprised people are even debating whether this was abuse.

Or, she was punished for lying. I know that in my house my dad would punish us even worse for lying, and not so badly manning up and saying "I did it."

now, obviously 3 hours of running is a bit excessive. 10 min would be good in my book. (I don't even think I could run three hours strait without passing out)
Some people just shouldn't have children.

[darin]

Yes,I agree...I was pretty much refering to children 9 and older. I think by 9/10 they are in middle school aren't they?


12 is 7th Grade - although in Rochester, MI schools, 6th grade is middle school/jr high.

With respect to some folks here -

Reading through this thread, and others, i'm confronted and conflicted. The later the sound result of cautionary prudence required of good judgement in today's world. The former only with myself, among my urges to know - Philia, if you will, a select group of the membership of this community. Your thoughts and insights transcend mere participation and offer glimpses into the joys, fears, love and mere happenstance of your lives. For your presence, I thank you.

[Gunny]

I'm even all for spankings still, but even that will get you arrested these days. At what point does it go from discipline into abuse? At what point does it go from private family business to an issue where the state/police should intervene? I'm asking after reading the following article, where a 9 year old girl was forced to run for 3 hours. She was severely dehydrated, and had a seizure and died a few days later. This, IMO, is without a doubt wrong and abusive. But also, I think if they had her do some sort of physical activity, within reason, that would have been fine. But obviously they pushed the envelope. For example, when I played football, if we screwed up we were forced to run laps with all the equipment on. This is a good motivational tool for athletes. There's an obvious difference between a few laps and 3 straight hours, no fluids and fluids, and a 9 year old guy and an equivalent aged child in sports.

I point out the differences to show how some would be seen as normal and now this example being what they are calling murder.



http://news.yahoo.com/2-charged-death-ala-girl-forced-run-082216169.html

I'll just respond to your thread title. "How far is too far" is subjective. It's a lose/lose deal for parents in lib-dominated states. You can be held accountable for legally for your child's action, but have been legislatively emasculated from just about any means of punishment to force them to obey. The left's idea is if time out doesn't work, they need a therapist and some medication. Not to mention the fact if a child accuses a parent of ANYTHING, CPS can just take the child and the adult has to prove the allegations untrue.

Leftwing legislation has effectively allowed the inmates to run the asylum. It's abuse if some 70s, earth-shoe wearing, tree-hugging wimp, leftwingnut that think they can reason with a child says so.

[ConHog]

Sometimes 'talking it out' isn't the right answer. When my kids were todlers, or younger, and they didn't obey, they got a swat instantly. Very small kids can't reason very well. When my kids were little, I didn't expect them to understand the laws of physics surrounding the events of a car smashing their heads, if the kid ran out into the street. I needed them - for their survival to simply respond when I told them to stop. As they got older, they grew in understanding about 'objects in motion', etc. So - for young kids, beat 'em (lovingly). As the kid gains levels of understanding, move to discipline that makes more sense. Situation dictate. :)



No, I'm not the same guy because I never wrote that.
It's stupid to make shit up, then try to soften the lie by adding 'aren't you the guy' tags. Would be like if I wrote "Aren't you the guy who advocated raping the family dog, killing it, then selling the pet's meat for profit"? Passive-aggressive much? :)

What the fuck? Wouldn't a simple " you have me confused with someone else" have sufficed? Talk about passive aggressive.

[darin]

What the fuck? Wouldn't a simple " you have me confused with someone else" have sufficed? Talk about passive aggressive.


Meh - was merely 'aggressive' - not passive-aggressive. Boggles my mind how you could draw a conclusion like the one you made WRT kids and lunches and somehow 'punishing the kid' to teach them a lesson or whatever. C'mon man. I mean, honestly...take a little responsibility for an off the wall accusation.

[Gunny]

Meh - was merely 'aggressive' - not passive-aggressive. Boggles my mind how you could draw a conclusion like the one you made WRT kids and lunches and somehow 'punishing the kid' to teach them a lesson or whatever. C'mon man. I mean, honestly...take a little responsibility for an off the wall accusation.

And misusing "passive-aggressive". His grammar's not that great, as I have discovered recently. Guess his vocabulary is about as good.

[jimnyc]

I should have been more clear. I thought it was obvious that the girl in the news story in my post was abuse. I didn't mean to start a debate as to whether or not that one particular case was abuse or not, as I thought that one clearly was. But for spanking in general, and punishing in general, is what I was getting at. Where is that "line" that changes things from discipline into abuse? I think a parent has a right to raise and discipline their child, but if you give him/her a light spanking, and your neighbor sees it and calls the cops, you might get into hot water. At what point does it become the governments business in how I raise/discipline my child?

[CSM]

I should have been more clear. I thought it was obvious that the girl in the news story in my post was abuse. I didn't mean to start a debate as to whether or not that one particular case was abuse or not, as I thought that one clearly was. But for spanking in general, and punishing in general, is what I was getting at. Where is that "line" that changes things from discipline into abuse? I think a parent has a right to raise and discipline their child, but if you give him/her a light spanking, and your neighbor sees it and calls the cops, you might get into hot water. At what point does it become the governments business in how I raise/discipline my child?


at about the point you leave a bruise or draw blood, but that is just my opinion. Mental abuse is harder to determine. I would say the line is at about the point your kid shows liberal tendencies.

[Gunny]

I should have been more clear. I thought it was obvious that the girl in the news story in my post was abuse. I didn't mean to start a debate as to whether or not that one particular case was abuse or not, as I thought that one clearly was. But for spanking in general, and punishing in general, is what I was getting at. Where is that "line" that changes things from discipline into abuse? I think a parent has a right to raise and discipline their child, but if you give him/her a light spanking, and your neighbor sees it and calls the cops, you might get into hot water. At what point does it become the governments business in how I raise/discipline my child?

Again, it's subject to what certain groups in our society consider abuse. I didn't address the specifics in the article. I addressed your question.

I have no problem with spankings. They work. You'll go to jail and lose your child in a lot of places for it though.


at about the point you leave a bruise or draw blood, but that is just my opinion. Mental abuse is harder to determine. I would say the line is at about the point your kid shows liberal tendencies.

Mental abuse, according to some, is worse than physical abuse. Physical abuse, in most instances, will heal. Mental abuse doesn't always heal and/or heal as quickly as physical abuse.

[CSM]

Again, it's subject to what certain groups in our society consider abuse. I didn't address the specifics in the article. I addressed your question.

I have no problem with spankings. They work. You'll go to jail and lose your child in a lot of places for it though.



Mental abuse, according to some, is worse than physical abuse. Physical abuse, in most instances, will heal. Mental abuse doesn't always heal and/or heal as quickly as physical abuse.

Too true. Some people are experts at mental abuse; much harder to spot and even tougher to do something to prevent. I suspect that the political correctness we see today is a failed attempt to address mental abuse.

[gabosaurus]

Depends on how far you take "spanking." There is a line between "spanking" and "beating" that some folks fail to realize.


I should have been more clear. I thought it was obvious that the girl in the news story in my post was abuse.

Totally agreed. Anyone who doesn't think this is abuse doesn't need to be a parent.

[ConHog]

And misusing "passive-aggressive". His grammar's not that great, as I have discovered recently. Guess his vocabulary is about as good.

please keep your "flames" confined to the appropriate forum.

[Gunny]

please keep your "flames" confined to the appropriate forum.

If you would like to moderate, feel free to start your own forum. Otherwise, don't worry about my comments to someone else in response to HIS comment. As far as I am concerned, they are statements of fact, not flames. Tell YOU that you are wrong or disagreeing with you is NOT automatically a flame.

Or you could respond to the comment with something fact-based that refutes it. Otherwise, find yourself a :crying2:.

[LuvRPgrl]

Yea, it was flat out abuse, as gabby said.....

one of the biggest problems is when you have some moronic idiot do something like this, then the whole country over reacts and if you send you kid to run down to the store and get some soda, suddenly the child protective services are investigating you.

It simply wasnt discipline,
it was done in anger, nothing less

most parents want to discipline their kids for the right reason, always doing it effectively is another issue, often we miss, but for a decent parent, they never miss by this much.

People seem to forget, there is obvious abuse, obvious not abuse, and a gray area in the middle. PROBLEM anymore is, the gray area has shifted into the "obvioius abuse" area, and the "obviously not abuse" has shifted into the gray area, and the only parenting in the "obviouisly not abuse " area is those who cow tow to the experts, psychologists, etc who know everything about raising a kid, but have never raised one themselves.