Paterno

[ConHog]

In light of his latest comments about how he just didn't know what to do when certain things were reported to him visa vie Sandusky, has anyone changed their opinion about him being fired?

[Abbey Marie]

Only if my being even more sure than ever that he shouldn't have been fired, constitutes a change of mind.

[jimnyc]

Not me, my stance remains the same. He told the school authorities and it's their job to handle it from there. He stated he didn't want to make follow up calls to the school officials handling it as he didn't want to appear to be exerting influence either way.

[ConHog]

Not me, my stance remains the same. He told the school authorities and it's their job to handle it from there. He stated he didn't want to make follow up calls to the school officials handling it as he didn't want to appear to be exerting influence either way.

Even though the law on who he's supposed to contact is clear?

Amazing.

Oh, and I know how you feel about the grad assistant and I agree, how is Paterno gone, but that douche is still working for PSU?

[Abbey Marie]

I think Jim and I have felt all along that the grad student should have been fired; not Paterno.

[ConHog]

I think Jim and I have felt all along that the grad student should have been fired; not Paterno.

I KNEW Jim had , but I didn't remember your stance from the last thread on the subject.

I think everyone who had ANY knowledge should be fired.

However, here's my question, why should the grad assistant be fired but not JoePa? They both did the same thing. Reported it to their superiors, rather than the police as required by law. Either they both should have been fired or neither should have been IMO.

[jimnyc]

Even though the law on who he's supposed to contact is clear?

Amazing.

Oh, and I know how you feel about the grad assistant and I agree, how is Paterno gone, but that douche is still working for PSU?

We've been through this, the law did not apply to Paterno as he was not a school official. There has been a billion articles about this, and even an arrest of a school administrator for not doing just what you say. But that law doesn't apply to a coach. Paterno did what he was supposed to do, contact school officials and make them aware.

[ConHog]

We've been through this, the law did not apply to Paterno as he was not a school official. There has been a billion articles about this, and even an arrest of a school administrator for not doing just what you say. But that law doesn't apply to a coach. Paterno did what he was supposed to do, contact school officials and make them aware.

I absolutely, positively disagree with you on your definition of school official.

But, let's set that aside because we will never agree. Don't you agree that from a MORAL standpoint he should have either

A) Called the police

or

B) outright killed the fucker, THEN called the police?

IF that were me, at a minimum A would have happened, possibly B.

Certainly B if I had been the grad assistant who actually witnessed it.

[jimnyc]

I absolutely, positively disagree with you on your definition of school official.

But, let's set that aside because we will never agree. Don't you agree that from a MORAL standpoint he should have either

A) Called the police

or

B) outright killed the fucker, THEN called the police?

IF that were me, at a minimum A would have happened, possibly B.

Certainly B if I had been the grad assistant who actually witnessed it.

You can disagree all you like, but it's a fact. I don't need you to agree with me to know it's a fact. It's been discussed ad nauseum everywhere, and even someone at PSU was arrested for that very reason. "IF" it were as you say, then Paterno would be in violation and would have been arrested. I highly doubt that Pa. State Police arrested one man and are willfully ignoring another. The law clearly states that it would need to be a school official, and goes further on to clarify who they consider school officials, and a coach isn't one of them. I posted the law awhile back and am not searching again. He doesn't qualify as a mandatory reporter, and that's a fact.

As for what WE think he should have done, that means very little. Off the top of my head I say I would have called instantly, but I'm not Coach Joe and I don't know every intimate little detail. Nor did he probably, which is why he reported it to the AD and let the appropriate channels do their job.

[ConHog]

You can disagree all you like, but it's a fact. I don't need you to agree with me to know it's a fact. It's been discussed ad nauseum everywhere, and even someone at PSU was arrested for that very reason. "IF" it were as you say, then Paterno would be in violation and would have been arrested. I highly doubt that Pa. State Police arrested one man and are willfully ignoring another. The law clearly states that it would need to be a school official, and goes further on to clarify who they consider school officials, and a coach isn't one of them. I posted the law awhile back and am not searching again. He doesn't qualify as a mandatory reporter, and that's a fact.

As for what WE think he should have done, that means very little. Off the top of my head I say I would have called instantly, but I'm not Coach Joe and I don't know every intimate little detail. Nor did he probably, which is why he reported it to the AD and let the appropriate channels do their job.

Ah, but the appropriate channels did NOT do their jobs. Oh, and I bet the law in Penn is made much clearer after this eh?

Plus, screw what he HAD to do, it's about what he SHOULD have done. And you denied it in the last thread, but the fact is Paterno could have unilaterally and instantly cut off Sandusky from having ANY access to PSU football or their facilities. At a MINIMUM he should have made sure the bastard didn't have an opportunity to take advantage of more kids on PSU property after the first two incidents .

[jimnyc]

Ah, but the appropriate channels did NOT do their jobs. Oh, and I bet the law in Penn is made much clearer after this eh?

Plus, screw what he HAD to do, it's about what he SHOULD have done. And you denied it in the last thread, but the fact is Paterno could have unilaterally and instantly cut off Sandusky from having ANY access to PSU football or their facilities. At a MINIMUM he should have made sure the bastard didn't have an opportunity to take advantage of more kids on PSU property after the first two incidents .

It's not Paterno's fault that the school officials didn't appropriately do what they were supposed to, and that's why 2 of them have been arrested. And the law remains the same as far as I know, but I'm not privy to any changes politicians are looking for. "Mandated reporters" are generally restricted to school administrators, and even more towards those that specifically work with children. A college football coach hardly even comes close to those requirements. But it wouldn't surprise me if efforts were made to widen the law to include more people and for more reasons, and of course I wouldn't take issue with that.

I'm not even going to bother rehashing the second portion of your argument. What you feel Paterno had power to do means nothing to me. WHat matters to me is facts.

[ConHog]

It's not Paterno's fault that the school officials didn't appropriately do what they were supposed to, and that's why 2 of them have been arrested. And the law remains the same as far as I know, but I'm not privy to any changes politicians are looking for. "Mandated reporters" are generally restricted to school administrators, and even more towards those that specifically work with children. A college football coach hardly even comes close to those requirements. But it wouldn't surprise me if efforts were made to widen the law to include more people and for more reasons, and of course I wouldn't take issue with that.

I'm not even going to bother rehashing the second portion of your argument. What you feel Paterno had power to do means nothing to me. WHat matters to me is facts.

Ok then, it is a FACT that Paterno could have barred Sandusky from the football facilities.

[jimnyc]

Ok then, it is a FACT that Paterno could have barred Sandusky from the football facilities.

Then all you need is proof that this is the case.

[ConHog]

Then all you need is proof that this is the case.

Sure, look around at individual programs where the head coach barred boosters from the facilities for NCAA violations, never mind rape.

[jimnyc]

Sure, look around at individual programs where the head coach barred boosters from the facilities for NCAA violations, never mind rape.

Just as I presumed, no facts. Whatever, think what you may about him, I'm certainly not trying to convince you otherwise. You asked a question starting the thread and I answered. I'm not being lured into the same thread we've already had. I'm out, maybe you'll find someone who didn't participate last time who wants to discuss.

[ConHog]

Just as I presumed, no facts. Whatever, think what you may about him, I'm certainly not trying to convince you otherwise. You asked a question starting the thread and I answered. I'm not being lured into the same thread we've already had. I'm out, maybe you'll find someone who didn't participate last time who wants to discuss.

That's cool, you're right, no reason to rehash. My question was answered by you and Abby.

[Gunny]

In light of his latest comments about how he just didn't know what to do when certain things were reported to him visa vie Sandusky, has anyone changed their opinion about him being fired?

What was he supposed to do? Fire Sandusky because "someone said"?

[ConHog]

What was he supposed to do? Fire Sandusky because "someone said"?

Effectively he was fired after the 1999 incident. I mean technically he resigned, but we know what that means........... He was just allowed further access to the program after that AND he was allowed to take little boys into the locker rooms not just after the first incident that was reported to police, but after the second incident, which was NOT reported to police.

[Gunny]

Even though the law on who he's supposed to contact is clear?

Amazing.

Oh, and I know how you feel about the grad assistant and I agree, how is Paterno gone, but that douche is still working for PSU?

What's more amazing is that this is a legal issue and "some people" allow the fact that his team kicked their team's as to emotionally control their opinion.

Half this argument goes to the fact Paterno was an awesome coach and always pulled off underdog victories. Sad that our legal opinions have come down to that.

Wouldn't want anyone like tht on any jury sitting in judgment of me. By law, PROVE he was complicit or shut up. That simple. He doesn't have to prove his innocence. That's leftwingnut/Neocon BS.

[ConHog]

What's more amazing is that this is a legal issue and "some people" allow the fact that his team kicked their team's as to emotionally control their opinion.

Half this argument goes to the fact Paterno was an awesome coach and always pulled off underdog victories. Sad that our legal opinions have come down to that.

Wouldn't want anyone like tht on any jury sitting in judgment of me. By law, PROVE he was complicit or shut up. That simple. He doesn't have to prove his innocence. That's leftwingnut/Neocon BS.

That would be true, IF this were a legal matter. Paterno didn't commit a crime under they law if he isn't considered to be a school official. It is more one of morals. And in today's college football world, morals and ethics count. And they should ALWAYS count when it comes to children.

Oh, and Arkansas has never played Penn St. A shame if you ask me, I'd love to play them, would have loved to when JoePa was on top to.

[Abbey Marie]

Bottom line: The only person who allegedly saw Sandusky doing anything was the grad student. He is the one who should have called to police; not pass the buck to Paterno.

His only telling Paterno, is the same as Paterno only telling school authorities, with two key differences in Paterno's favor:
1. He (the grad) student saw it; Paterno did not.
2. Telling Paterno was the grad student's choice. The people Paterno told were exactly the people he was supposed to tell.

Especially after the Paterno interview, wherein the information told to Paterno was apparently vague, I believe that Paterno did what he was supposed to do. If the reporting law does not support your version of morality, then work to change the reporting law. But don't fire the guy (scapegoat) who did what he was supposed to do.

[ConHog]

Bottom line: The only person who allegedly saw Sandusky doing anything was the grad student. He is the one who should have called to police; not pass the buck to Paterno.

His only telling Paterno, is the same as Paterno only telling school authorities, with two key differences in Paterno's favor:
1. He (the grad) student saw it; Paterno did not.
2. Telling Paterno was the grad student's choice. The people Paterno told were exactly the people he was supposed to tell.

Especially after the Paterno interview, wherein the information told to Paterno was apparently vague, I believe that Paterno did what he was supposed to do. If the reporting law does not support your version of morality, then work to change the reporting law. But don't fire the guy (scapegoat) who did what he was supposed to do.

I'd fire everyone associated with PSU football Abbey. Including the entire BoT who knew for 5 months that Sandusky was being investigated for ANOTHER incident and still no one from the President on down to Paterno said "hey guys, maybe we shouldn't let this guy bring kids to the locker rooms anymore, JUST IN FUCKING CASE?'

I LOVE Razorback football, and I love Coach Petrino, but if this EVER happened at the University of Arkansas I would not only stop donating every year, I would not only stop attending games or buying merchandise, I wouldn't even watch another game on TV, not EVER. It's completely disgusting that so many people at Penn St knew KNEW that that sick fuck is a predator and using his charity and his access to the facilities at Penn State to prey on kids.

[Gunny]

That would be true, IF this were a legal matter. Paterno didn't commit a crime under they law if he isn't considered to be a school official. It is more one of morals. And in today's college football world, morals and ethics count. And they should ALWAYS count when it comes to children.

Oh, and Arkansas has never played Penn St. A shame if you ask me, I'd love to play them, would have loved to when JoePa was on top to.

It IS a legal matter. And today's college football world is only exceeded in corruption by the NFL. Anyone thinking it's about morals is naive. I'd like to know WHERE you think morals and ethics count in the NCAA? Shall we start with them turning the National Championship into a computerized joke?

Fact is, if I was going to take a moral stance, I'd choose Paterno as one of the LEAST morally corupt coaches during my lifetime. Penn State's players played because they wanted to play. They wear nondescript uniforms and never even had their names on the jerseys. There's no "I" in "team".

Your last sentence just proves my point in my previous post. You can't diferrentiate between a kid's game and the law.

[Gunny]

I'd fire everyone associated with PSU football Abbey. Including the entire BoT who knew for 5 months that Sandusky was being investigated for ANOTHER incident and still no one from the President on down to Paterno said "hey guys, maybe we shouldn't let this guy bring kids to the locker rooms anymore, JUST IN FUCKING CASE?'

I LOVE Razorback football, and I love Coach Petrino, but if this EVER happened at the University of Arkansas I would not only stop donating every year, I would not only stop attending games or buying merchandise, I wouldn't even watch another game on TV, not EVER. It's completely disgusting that so many people at Penn St knew KNEW that that sick fuck is a predator and using his charity and his access to the facilities at Penn State to prey on kids.

You're too wrapped around college football, and you're too politcally correct.

I'm not firing ANYONE until you show me some f*cking evidence as the law of this land requires.

[ConHog]

It IS a legal matter. And today's college football world is only exceeded in corruption by the NFL. Anyone thinking it's about morals is naive. I'd like to know WHERE you think morals and ethics count in the NCAA? Shall we start with them turning the National Championship into a computerized joke?

Fact is, if I was going to take a moral stance, I'd choose Paterno as one of the LEAST morally corupt coaches during my lifetime. Penn State's players played because they wanted to play. They wear nondescript uniforms and never even had their names on the jerseys. There's no "I" in "team".

Your last sentence just proves my point in my previous post. You can't diferrentiate between a kid's game and the law.

ugh what?

First of all, there has NEVER been a national championship in Div I football. It has always ALWAYS been mythical. THe NCAA didn't do anything to change that.

Second of all, it has EVERYTHING to do with morals. How disgusting that you don't think a coach who KNEW that a pedophile was using his facilities to interact with children should maybe put a stop to said pedophile from using his facilities, the requirements of the law be damned.

If you want to pretend that Petrino didn't KNOW Sandusky was a pedophile by 2002 then I'm just done discussing this thread with you. He'd have to be stupid, senile, or both not to know it after TWO incidents, one of which Sandusky himself told the cops he was involved.

Five months Gunny, five months the BoT at PSU were aware the guy was being investigated and a grand jury was ready to indict the guy and they nor Paterno stopped the guy from bringing kids to Penn State's locker room?

Sick.

Your last sentence didn't even make sense.

[jimnyc]

Five months Gunny, five months the BoT at PSU were aware the guy was being investigated and a grand jury was ready to indict the guy and they nor Paterno stopped the guy from bringing kids to Penn State's locker room?

Administrators, yes - but you STILL haven't shown that JoePa had the authority to do so. Your speaking simply out of your opinion and anger, but lacking in facts. Paterno did what he was supposed to do, period. He is not a police officer nor is he a judge.

[Gunny]

ugh what?

First of all, there has NEVER been a national championship in Div I football. It has always ALWAYS been mythical. THe NCAA didn't do anything to change that.

Second of all, it has EVERYTHING to do with morals. How disgusting that you don't think a coach who KNEW that a pedophile was using his facilities to interact with children should maybe put a stop to said pedophile from using his facilities, the requirements of the law be damned.

If you want to pretend that Petrino didn't KNOW Sandusky was a pedophile by 2002 then I'm just done discussing this thread with you. He'd have to be stupid, senile, or both not to know it after TWO incidents, one of which Sandusky himself told the cops he was involved.

Five months Gunny, five months the BoT at PSU were aware the guy was being investigated and a grand jury was ready to indict the guy and they nor Paterno stopped the guy from bringing kids to Penn State's locker room?

Sick.

Your last sentence didn't even make sense.

I'm not pretending anything. Read the law. THEN, when you provide factual evidence to support your case, I might have something to read. Your assumptions/biased opinons are NOT factual evidence. Start from there.

[ConHog]

Administrators, yes - but you STILL haven't shown that JoePa had the authority to do so. Your speaking simply out of your opinion and anger, but lacking in facts. Paterno did what he was supposed to do, period. He is not a police officer nor is he a judge.

I'm not angry Jim. If this happened at Arkansas I'd be angry.

Please stop acting like the head coach at Penn State University, especially one with the clout that Paterno had couldn't have simply said "hey you're not allowed in my locker rooms anymore" and it wouldn't have been a done deal. It certainly would have been and NO ONE would have over ridden paterno. You know that................ You're the one who's letting anger define his argument, not me. You absolutely , positively, without a shadow of a doubt KNOW that if Paterno had barred him from the locker rooms at PSU, it would have been the way it was.

Why wasn't it done? Best guess b/c Penn St was hoping to keep the whole thing quiet and that it would just go away. That makes JoePa part of a coverup.

You insult your own intelligence when you can't even admit that yes Paterno certainly had the unilateral authority to bar someone from the facilities.

Now, if you'd like to present an argument about why he shouldn't have done so, let's have it, but all you're going to do is continue saying that he did what was required of him and pretending like he couldn't have barred the guy from campus then I'm just going to concede that your anger has gotten the best of you in this thread, and bail out.

[Gunny]

I'm not angry Jim. If this happened at Arkansas I'd be angry.

Please stop acting like the head coach at Penn State University, especially one with the clout that Paterno had couldn't have simply said "hey you're not allowed in my locker rooms anymore" and it wouldn't have been a done deal. It certainly would have been and NO ONE would have over ridden paterno. You know that................ You're the one who's letting anger define his argument, not me. You absolutely , positively, without a shadow of a doubt KNOW that if Paterno had barred him from the locker rooms at PSU, it would have been the way it was.

Why wasn't it done? Best guess b/c Penn St was hoping to keep the whole thing quiet and that it would just go away. That makes JoePa part of a coverup.

You insult your own intelligence when you can't even admit that yes Paterno certainly had the unilateral authority to bar someone from the facilities.

Now, if you'd like to present an argument about why he shouldn't have done so, let's have it, but all you're going to do is continue saying that he did what was required of him and pretending like he couldn't have barred the guy from campus then I'm just going to concede that your anger has gotten the best of you in this thread, and bail out.

Your entire post is nothing but assumptions. Not admissible in a court of law.

[ConHog]

Your entire post is nothing but assumptions. Not admissible in a court of law.

Exactly the point, no court of law was needed for Paterno to say " sorry, you're not allowed to use our facilities anymore" and that is EXACTLY what he should have done probably in 1999 after the first incident and CERTAINLY in 2002 after the second incident.

[jimnyc]

If Coach Joe had so much pull and authority at Penn State, things would have been a lot different and he would still have a job. Sandusky was automatically given preferential treatment and access to the facilities when they gave him Professor Emeritus status years back. If you think the Coach has the power to go against school bylaws and years and years of precedent and treatment, then so be it.

Tell me, CH, how many facilities, which are listed as "athletic" are there on the entire PSU campus? And how many of them are controlled by Coach Joe? Ok, now that you have that, specifically which one did this Sandusky case take place at, where the asst. coach saw him?

[ConHog]

If Coach Joe had so much pull and authority at Penn State, things would have been a lot different and he would still have a job. Sandusky was automatically given preferential treatment and access to the facilities when they gave him Professor Emeritus status years back. If you think the Coach has the power to go against school bylaws and years and years of precedent and treatment, then so be it.

Tell me, CH, how many facilities, which are listed as "athletic" are there on the entire PSU campus? And how many of them are controlled by Coach Joe? Ok, now that you have that, specifically which one did this Sandusky case take place at, where the asst. coach saw him?

Jim, I already told you if you can't be a grown up and get past your anger in this thread and admit that yes a Division 1 football coach certainly can bar people from his football facilities for any reason and that no one would stop him from doing so, that I wasn't going to indulge you in that argument anymore.

It's just stupid to suggest otherwise. he's the ultimate boss of EVERYTHING that goes on in the football program, of course he could have barred him from the facilities.

As to how much power football coaches have. Early on in the investigation into Coach Tressel at OSU for NCAA violations, the Athletic Director was asked if he was going to fire the coach and his response was " Fire him? I just hope that Coach doesn't fire me" tells you right there who has more clout and don't think for a second that PSU was any different.

[jimnyc]

Jim, I already told you if you can't be a grown up and get past your anger in this thread and admit that yes a Division 1 football coach certainly can bar people from his football facilities for any reason and that no one would stop him from doing so, that I wasn't going to indulge you in that argument anymore.

It's just stupid to suggest otherwise. he's the ultimate boss of EVERYTHING that goes on in the football program, of course he could have barred him from the facilities.

As to how much power football coaches have. Early on in the investigation into Coach Tressel at OSU for NCAA violations, the Athletic Director was asked if he was going to fire the coach and his response was " Fire him? I just hope that Coach doesn't fire me" tells you right there who has more clout and don't think for a second that PSU was any different.

So since you can't provide facts, and only want to demand your opinion right, you're going to take your opinion and your ball and go home? All you've done is give your opinion on what control you think coaches have. I've already proven they aren't mandatory reporters as you originally claimed. Now you want to claim you "know" what control they have. Whatever.

[ConHog]

So since you can't provide facts, and only want to demand your opinion right, you're going to take your opinion and your ball and go home? All you've done is give your opinion on what control you think coaches have. I've already proven they aren't mandatory reporters as you originally claimed. Now you want to claim you "know" what control they have. Whatever.

No Jim, since you've decided to be a child in this thread I have decided to bail. You don't even try to give a reason why you think I'm wrong about how much power Joe had over Penn St football, you just cry that it's my opinion and no it is not. It's fact, a college football coach has dominion over HIS facilities.

But whatever, see you in a different thread.

[jimnyc]

This was my post:


If Coach Joe had so much pull and authority at Penn State, things would have been a lot different and he would still have a job. Sandusky was automatically given preferential treatment and access to the facilities when they gave him Professor Emeritus status years back. If you think the Coach has the power to go against school bylaws and years and years of precedent and treatment, then so be it.

Tell me, CH, how many facilities, which are listed as "athletic" are there on the entire PSU campus? And how many of them are controlled by Coach Joe? Ok, now that you have that, specifically which one did this Sandusky case take place at, where the asst. coach saw him?

Then since it disagreed with you, you whined with:


Jim, I already told you if you can't be a grown up and get past your anger in this thread and admit that yes a Division 1 football coach certainly can bar people from his football facilities for any reason and that no one would stop him from doing so, that I wasn't going to indulge you in that argument anymore.

It's just stupid to suggest otherwise. he's the ultimate boss of EVERYTHING that goes on in the football program, of course he could have barred him from the facilities.

As to how much power football coaches have. Early on in the investigation into Coach Tressel at OSU for NCAA violations, the Athletic Director was asked if he was going to fire the coach and his response was " Fire him? I just hope that Coach doesn't fire me" tells you right there who has more clout and don't think for a second that PSU was any different.

You're making up this apparent "anger" you think I have. I stated nothing at all that should warrant my post of anything other than written by an adult. You infer I'm a child, when nothing was written in a manner toi back this up, other than simply disagreeing with you and/or asking you questions that would make you look foolish. The only one here remotely acting childish is you. Go to another thread then, maybe you'll find someone to agree with your crap so you can feel better. I'll wait here for the men to post, if they're interested.

[Abbey Marie]

Two more points:
1. Sandusky was previously investigated, yet no charges were filed. If I were Paterno, I would have to conclude that either there wasn't enough evidence, or the guy is innocent altogether. Either way, it wouldn't be my place to do more than the prosecutor has done.
2. If Paterno had done as suggested and barred Sandusky from the facility, it would have just driven him further underground, where these poor boys wouldn't have a chance of being observed. A gay pedophile won't stop until he is behind bars.

[ConHog]

Two more points:
1. Sandusky was previously investigated, yet no charges were filed. If I were Paterno, I would have to conclude that either there wasn't enough evidence, or the guy is innocent altogether. Either way, it wouldn't be my place to do more than the prosecutor has done.
2. If Paterno had done as suggested and barred Sandusky from the facility, it would have just driven him further underground, where these poor boys wouldn't have a chance of being observed. A gay pedophile won't stop until he is behind bars.

1. Sandusky ADMITTED to the police that he had inappropriate contact with a child in 1998. Who knows why he wasn't charged then, that entire situation is strange. The prosecuting attorney who declined to press charges completely disappeared from the face of the earth.

2. A total piss poor reason to not bar him from the facilities.