Thoughts on the Iowa Caucus?

[jimnyc]

A difference of 8 votes? I'm too lazy to search, but I have to imagine that's one of the, if not the closest tally ever. I didn't even hear much about Santorum surging till earlier in the week and then he pulls off the "shocker" of the night by finishing in a virtual tie with Romney. Paul didn't perform too badly either, but he'll disappear before long. Does anyone think Santorum has what it takes to stay above Romney? Or any of the other candidates getting back on the radar? I think if it comes down to these 2, Romney will pull away.

[jimnyc]

Also, I guess New Hampshire is up next, where Romney is polling at about 43%. If he does win big in NH, will that also have a lasting effect going into SC which is what I believe is after that?

[revelarts]

A difference of 8 votes? I'm too lazy to search, but I have to imagine that's one of the, if not the closest tally ever. I didn't even hear much about Santorum surging till earlier in the week and then he pulls off the "shocker" of the night by finishing in a virtual tie with Romney. Paul didn't perform too badly either, but he'll disappear before long. Does anyone think Santorum has what it takes to stay above Romney? Or any of the other candidates getting back on the radar? I think if it comes down to these 2, Romney will pull away.

One all the votes are counted Santorum may be the winner, but it's a statistical tie either way.
thanks for mentioning Paul, not sure why he should go away though. Delegate wise in Iowa All 3 end up with 7 a piece so it was A 3 way tie on that front. Paul is polling a consistent leading 2nd in NH. And has the org and the money to continue.
GO RON PAUL!!!

[jimnyc]

One all the votes are counted Santorum may be the winner, but it's a statistical tie either way.
thanks for mentioning Paul, not sure why he should go away though. Delegate wise in Iowa All 3 end up with 7 a piece so it was A 3 way tie on that front. Paul is polling a consistent leading 2nd in NH. And has the org and the money to continue.
GO RON PAUL!!!

I didn't mean to say he should go away, but that he will go away, as in he's eventually either going to drop out of the race, or be so far behind that it won't matter anyway. He won't be "in the race" for the long haul. He may be consistently 2nd in NH, but that's like 43% for Romney and RP I last seen in the 13-15% range. I also think you'll see Santorum move up in the polls in NH after last night. I believe you'll see similar numbers to this as the state delegates get larger.

[Nukeman]

I was pleased to see Santorum do so well in Iowa. I was afraid he wouldn't make it out. Living in Indiana by the time our primary rolls around it has already been decided.

Personally I feel all the primaries should be held on the same day or at least the same week and all voting should be kept under wraps until ALL states and votes are cast and counted. Than we could REALLY have a valid primary to see who EVERYONE wants not just the first 3-4 states.....

[ConHog]

I was pleased to see Santorum do so well in Iowa. I was afraid he wouldn't make it out. Living in Indiana by the time our primary rolls around it has already been decided.

Personally I feel all the primaries should be held on the same day or at least the same week and all voting should be kept under wraps until ALL states and votes are cast and counted. Than we could REALLY have a valid primary to see who EVERYONE wants not just the first 3-4 states.....

I think the same about the general election. As it stands NY is being awarded before california polls are even close to closing, for example.

Another reason to go with internet voting. At X time all computers report all winners, no one knows in advance what states went to who.

[revelarts]

I think the same about the general election. As it stands NY is being awarded before california polls are even close to closing, for example.

Another reason to go with internet voting. At X time all computers report all winners, no one knows in advance what states went to who.

100% with you on part one

Hell no on internet voting. Only if the gov't buys all of the voting software from me.

[ConHog]

100% with you on part one

Hell no on internet voting. Only if the gov't buys all of the voting software from me.

What is your objection to internet voting?

[revelarts]

What is your objection to internet voting?

How can it be verify or trusted? A push of a button and votes could be changed.

[ConHog]

How can it be verify or trusted? A push of a button and votes could be changed.

And paper votes can't be destroyed/altered?

And guess what Rev. Computerized voting is already out there.

As for verified. Give me a break MILLIONS of people trust online banking, online gambling, online this online that.

Verification is simple

Each precinct has a server that holds their own results. Whoever is in charge of that precinct also has access to statewide results and can therefor check to see not only if their precinct is being properly counted and reported by the state, but that their state is being properly counted and reported to the national level.

It's a perfect solution that will probably never be implemented because of conspiracy cuckoos like you.

[revelarts]

there is no perfect solution.

[Abbey Marie]

I was pleased to see Santorum do so well in Iowa. I was afraid he wouldn't make it out. Living in Indiana by the time our primary rolls around it has already been decided.

Personally I feel all the primaries should be held on the same day or at least the same week and all voting should be kept under wraps until ALL states and votes are cast and counted. Than we could REALLY have a valid primary to see who EVERYONE wants not just the first 3-4 states.....

:goodposting:

[ConHog]

there is no perfect solution.

Oh yes there is.

Do you know we now have DRs in Boston performing heart surgery via the internet on patients in Africa? We have computers controlling nuclear weapons capable of destroying mankind . We have our entire lives available online, I haven't written a paper check in over 3 years all payments are made online.

Are you seriously suggesting that computers and the internet couldn't be better utilized in the voting process?

[Abbey Marie]

Oh yes there is.

Do you know we now have DRs in Boston performing heart surgery via the internet on patients in Africa? We have computers controlling nuclear weapons capable of destroying mankind . We have our entire lives available online, I haven't written a paper check in over 3 years all payments are made online.

Are you seriously suggesting that computers and the internet couldn't be better utilized in the voting process?

As soon as someone perfects security, there are hackers out there finding ways to penetrate it.

But mostly, I think it it a bad idea because the recount/conspiracy folks will be even more distrusting of a computererized election. As long as their guy loses, of course.

And then you will have those who claim they are "disenfranchised" because they can't afford a computer or have no access to one. Next thing you know the gov't will be buying every voter their own laptop so they can vote.

[ConHog]

As soon as someone perfects security, there are hackers out there finding ways to penetrate it.

But mostly, I think it it a bad idea because the recount/conspiracy folks will be even more distrusting of a computererized election. As long as their guy loses, of course.

And then you will have those who claim they are "disenfranchised" because they can't afford a computer or have no access to one. Next thing you know the gov't will be buying every voter their own laptop so they can vote.

Nope. You keep the polling places open, just as they are . The only differences are A) People have the ability to vote from home/work/school instead of going to the polling station if they choose to and B) Those who choose to go to a polling station will utilize on an online connection to vote. No one will be required to own a PC to vote.

As for security, if the NSA can provide a secure network for the AIr Force to bomb some dude in Yeman with an armed Predator drone being controlled from Florida, I'm pretty sure they can provide a secure voting network, and of course appropriate safeguards would have to be put in place.

[Thunderknuckles]

A difference of 8 votes? I'm too lazy to search, but I have to imagine that's one of the, if not the closest tally ever. I didn't even hear much about Santorum surging till earlier in the week and then he pulls off the "shocker" of the night by finishing in a virtual tie with Romney. Paul didn't perform too badly either, but he'll disappear before long. Does anyone think Santorum has what it takes to stay above Romney? Or any of the other candidates getting back on the radar? I think if it comes down to these 2, Romney will pull away.
On Santorum, I am not so shocked by his performance. There may be some "flavor of the month" influence on his performance but I really get the impression that Santorum worked his ass off in Iowa during his tour of the entire state. My hat is off to the man. I think he deserved that campaign victory. If he has the strength to continue campaigning with that kind of diligence he may be able to stand with Romney for some time.

Conventional wisdom says N.H. is a gimme for Romney and doubt we will see anyone spend too much time there, some have already moved on to South Carolina. This is where Santorum could really make a strong statement by pulling out a threatening second place finish.

Thus, South Carolina and Florida will be where I think we will see the field of candidates condense into final form.

[revelarts]

And paper votes can't be destroyed/altered?

And guess what Rev. Computerized voting is already out there.

As for verified. Give me a break MILLIONS of people trust online banking, online gambling, online this online that.

Verification is simple

Each precinct has a server that holds their own results. Whoever is in charge of that precinct also has access to statewide results and can therefor check to see not only if their precinct is being properly counted and reported by the state, but that their state is being properly counted and reported to the national level.

It's a perfect solution that will probably never be implemented because of conspiracy cuckoos like you.


Oh yes there is.

Do you know we now have DRs in Boston performing heart surgery via the internet on patients in Africa? We have computers controlling nuclear weapons capable of destroying mankind . We have our entire lives available online, I haven't written a paper check in over 3 years all payments are made online.

Are you seriously suggesting that computers and the internet couldn't be better utilized in the voting process?


Nope. You keep the polling places open, just as they are . The only differences are A) People have the ability to vote from home/work/school instead of going to the polling station if they choose to and B) Those who choose to go to a polling station will utilize on an online connection to vote. No one will be required to own a PC to vote.

As for security, if the NSA can provide a secure network for the AIr Force to bomb some dude in Yeman with an armed Predator drone being controlled from Florida, I'm pretty sure they can provide a secure voting network, and of course appropriate safeguards would have to be put in place.




New York bank's online banking system hacked

Published: 13 Jan 2010

An intruder broke into the online banking system of Suffolk County National Bank in November and accessed the login credentials of 8,378 customers, bank officials disclosed this week.
The intrusion into a computer server hosting SCNB's online banking system was discovered Dec. 24 through an internal security review, according to a statement issued by the bank's parent company, Riverhead, N.Y.-based Suffolk Bancorp. The unauthorized access occurred between Nov. 18 and Nov. 23.
The bank immediately isolated and rebuilt the compromised server and has taken additional steps to secure the data on it, officials said.
SCNB said it hasn't found any evidence of unauthorized access to online banking accounts. "We haven't received any reports of unusual activity or financial loss," Douglas Ian Shaw, corporate secretary at Suffolk Bancorp said in an interview Wednesday.
He said the company will not disclose technical details about the intrusion other than what law enforcement may decide to release at a later point in time. The bank has hired outside forensics experts to help with the investigation into the incident. ...





...One day, Valade received a confirmation email from a brokerage account letting him know that a trade had been made. That would have been fine, except for one thing.


"In this case, a stock had been sold that I did not sell," Valade said.
Recognizing that the account had been compromised, Valade changed all of his passwords immediately.
"My brokerage account was closed and a new one was opened," he added. "The equities were transferred to the new account, with a new login and password."
Valade's experience happened on a brokerage site, but any online account can be a target....
http://www.securitynewsdaily.com/what-to-do-if-your-online-accounts-been-hacked-0897/




..
Hacking At Citi Is Latest Data Scare

Citigroup (http://online.wsj.com/public/quotes/main.html?type=djn&symbol=C) Inc. plans to send replacement credit cards to about 100,000 North American customers after its systems were breached by a hacking attack affecting about 200,000 accounts.


The Citigroup credit card breach comes on the heels of other similar attacks, raising concerns that banks and other companies aren't doing enough to protect themselves and their customers. Victoria McGrane explains.


Citi said on Thursday that the hacked accounts amounted to about 1% of its 21 million North American card customers and that it has referred the incident to law enforcement. The bank said it is contacting affected customers and has implemented procedures to prevent a recurrence.
The cyberintruders were able to access information including holders' names, account numbers and email addresses, Citi said. But the breach, which was discovered in early May and is the latest in a series of hacking attacks against companies, didn't compromise additional personal information such as Social Security numbers, dates of birth, or card security codes or expiration dates. The bank didn't rule out that fraudulent activity might have taken place following the attack but said Citi's debit cards weren't affected. Citi didn't say when the attacks occurred...
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304778304576375911873193624.html


Con, Abby don't imply that i or others are conspiracy theorist becuase we don't trust online voting. the above recent items shows that's online transactions are not a perfect or secure tool. I'm not sure how many times you get frustrated with the internet everyweek. Citi bank had 200,000 accounts hacked, you think 200,000 votes might make a difference in a race?
I'd appreciate it if people would only call me a conspiracy theorist when i say something about a conspiracy, you normal people seem to see conspiracy in my every post.

[pegwinn]

A difference of 8 votes? I'm too lazy to search, but I have to imagine that's one of the, if not the closest tally ever. I didn't even hear much about Santorum surging till earlier in the week and then he pulls off the "shocker" of the night by finishing in a virtual tie with Romney. Paul didn't perform too badly either, but he'll disappear before long. Does anyone think Santorum has what it takes to stay above Romney? Or any of the other candidates getting back on the radar? I think if it comes down to these 2, Romney will pull away.

I think all the dems that voted republican is what pushed Santorum up. Romney or Santorum will be easy for Obama to beat. I hope you are wrong about Paul disappearing. Guess we will see.

IOWA - Idiots Out Walking Around


As soon as someone perfects security, there are hackers out there finding ways to penetrate it.

But mostly, I think it it a bad idea because the recount/conspiracy folks will be even more distrusting of a computererized election. As long as their guy loses, of course.

And then you will have those who claim they are "disenfranchised" because they can't afford a computer or have no access to one. Next thing you know the gov't will be buying every voter their own laptop so they can vote.

I got a laptop. Make mine an iPad or Galaxy Tab please.

I am all for internet voting. Register to vote, get a customized one-time login to a secure network. Get a receipt you can print.

In the event of a recount, just bring your receipt and let them count it.

There will be conspiracies and rumors of conspiracies. Pretty soon OWS will be virtual.

[avatar4321]

I was expecting Santorum to win out, but otherwise, it was about what i expected. I knew it would be close.

Honestly, I think this will make things interesting and yes i think Santorum can make a good run for it.

[avatar4321]

Also, I guess New Hampshire is up next, where Romney is polling at about 43%. If he does win big in NH, will that also have a lasting effect going into SC which is what I believe is after that?

Polls will change fast in the next week.

[fj1200]

Nope. You keep the polling places open, just as they are .

Voters should have to go to the polls and nix the early voting trend.

[ConHog]

Voters should have to go to the polls and nix the early voting trend.

What purpose does having to go to the voting poll serve? I don't care about the early votes either.

[jimnyc]

I think all the dems that voted republican is what pushed Santorum up. Romney or Santorum will be easy for Obama to beat. I hope you are wrong about Paul disappearing. Guess we will see.

Do you seriously think that Ron Paul has a better chance of beating Obama in the general election than all the other candidates? NONE of them are "my" candidates, but I think Ron Paul and his foreign policy, especially at this time in our country, would receive a double digit beating from Obama. I think the only one with a chance is Romney.

[ConHog]

Do you seriously think that Ron Paul has a better chance of beating Obama in the general election than all the other candidates? NONE of them are "my" candidates, but I think Ron Paul and his foreign policy, especially at this time in our country, would receive a double digit beating from Obama. I think the only one with a chance is Romney.

And I honestly don't think he has much of a chance.

[fj1200]

What purpose does having to go to the voting poll serve? I don't care about the early votes either.

The process of voting shouldn't be cheapened. I think it should be moved to Veterans' Day and made more of a national holiday.

[ConHog]

The process of voting shouldn't be cheapened. I think it should be moved to Veterans' Day and made more of a national holiday.

Well, I can respect the idea of not cheapening the voting process. I just think it would behoove us to make voting as simple and convenient as possible.

Also, if voting were done online my short voter exam could be administered before voting were allowed. :laugh2:

[fj1200]

... my short voter exam could be administered before voting were allowed. :laugh2:

Yeah, there is that benefit. :poke:

[ConHog]

Yeah, there is that benefit. :poke:

You can't really disagree that limiting voting in SOME way wouldn't be beneficial to the process as a whole.

[Abbey Marie]

Con, Abby don't imply that i or others are conspiracy theorist becuase we don't trust online voting. the above recent items shows that's online transactions are not a perfect or secure tool. I'm not sure how many times you get frustrated with the internet everyweek. Citi bank had 200,000 accounts hacked, you think 200,000 votes might make a difference in a race?
I'd appreciate it if people would only call me a conspiracy theorist when i say something about a conspiracy, you normal people seem to see conspiracy in my every post.

Actually, I was saying that internet voting would be problematic as hackers are very capable.

[ConHog]

Actually, I was saying that internet voting would be problematic as hackers are very capable.

Internet hackers ARE very capable, but they simply don't have the computing power that the government has. MOST of the governmental systems that have been broken into are systems that either weren't that well guarded OR were the victims of social engineering. Absolutely no one is going to hack into a system that say the NSA has developed. Other safeguards would have to be put in place to assure that social engineering didn't gain someone access.

[Abbey Marie]

Internet hackers ARE very capable, but they simply don't have the computing power that the government has. MOST of the governmental systems that have been broken into are systems that either weren't that well guarded OR were the victims of social engineering. Absolutely no one is going to hack into a system that say the NSA has developed. Other safeguards would have to be put in place to assure that social engineering didn't gain someone access.

You have more faith in security than I do. While most people wouldn't want to hack into the NSA to harm the USA, there are endless numbers of folks who would like to rig an election.

[fj1200]

You can't really disagree that limiting voting in SOME way wouldn't be beneficial to the process as a whole.

Only if I get to do the limiting. :slap:

[ConHog]

You have more faith in security than I do. While most people wouldn't want to hack into the NSA to harm the USA, there are endless numbers of folks who would like to rig an election.

You underestimate the number of people who try to hack into secure US computers on a daily basis.

I mean today if someone wanted to rig an election, they would manage it. But I still maintain that if we can via the internet fly a Predator into Yeman to bomb a goy and control it from Florida, we can handle online elections.

[gabosaurus]

A lot of people do not have the internet. And there are some incredibly talented hackers out there.

Going back to Iowa, I think the whole process was incredibly meaningless. First of all, Iowa is a very small state. I believe there was less than 100,000 votes cast. No delegates were awarded. So what was the point?
Well, it did get rid of Michele Bachmann, so some good did come out of the whole mess. :cheers2:

[ConHog]

A lot of people do not have the internet. And there are some incredibly talented hackers out there.

Going back to Iowa, I think the whole process was incredibly meaningless. First of all, Iowa is a very small state. I believe there was less than 100,000 votes cast. No delegates were awarded. So what was the point?
Well, it did get rid of Michele Bachmann, so some good did come out of the whole mess. :cheers2:

Again, voting is a very minor thing compared to some of the things that take place on the internet. Could it be hacked? Of course it could, Would it be hacked. I think not.

As for many people not having the internet. I already addressed that, leave the polling stations where they are, the only difference is no paper ballots, everyone votes via computer.

[pegwinn]

Do you seriously think that Ron Paul has a better chance of beating Obama in the general election than all the other candidates? NONE of them are "my" candidates, but I think Ron Paul and his foreign policy, especially at this time in our country, would receive a double digit beating from Obama. I think the only one with a chance is Romney.

I think Paul's chances are at least as good as anyone of the GOP's offerings. This is not going to be a negative campaign. It's gonna be a freaking mudslinging tsunami. He does have some disadvantages though. Paul may not be as slick or as obviously political as Romney. Paul is narrowly focused but not in an anti-civil liberties way like Santorum. He isn't as smooth talking, ask the mistress, as Gingrich either.

BTW, it's been "at this time in our country" for all of my short life. But, I understand your sentiment.

[revelarts]

Internet hackers ARE very capable, but they simply don't have the computing power that the government has. MOST of the governmental systems that have been broken into are systems that either weren't that well guarded OR were the victims of social engineering. Absolutely no one is going to hack into a system that say the NSA has developed. Other safeguards would have to be put in place to assure that social engineering didn't gain someone access.


Again, voting is a very minor thing compared to some of the things that take place on the internet. Could it be hacked? Of course it could, Would it be hacked. I think not.

As for many people not having the internet. I already addressed that, leave the polling stations where they are, the only difference is no paper ballots, everyone votes via computer.

I'm with Abby, Con, "Unlikely" is not good enough, you say that the NSA would be the one setting it up well most likely the job would probably be given the vendor with the lowest bid. And even if the NSA or NASA did set it up, they are not invulnerable the Chinese, Russians, Japanese, IRAN!!!!! or even Israel as well as multinational corporations ALL with the dollars expertise and well known interest in our elections. Those are the top tier players not a group of basement hackers even though they to could potential be a serious problem. not to mention localities and party hacks.
No I don't like the idea at all.

and printing paper ballots from home doesn't sound like are real good idea, I suppose there's a way to make it print so that it's not forgeable or duplicatable... at home... but I'm not sure how that would work.

[revelarts]

I'm with Abby, Con, "Unlikely" is not good enough, you say that the NSA would be the one setting it up well most likely the job would probably be given the vendor with the lowest bid. And even if the NSA or NASA did set it up, they are not invulnerable the Chinese, Russians, Japanese, IRAN!!!!! or even Israel as well as multinational corporations ALL with the dollars expertise and well known interest in our elections. Those are the top tier players not a group of basement hackers even though they to could potential be a serious problem. not to mention localities and party hacks.
No I don't like the idea at all.

and printing paper ballots from home doesn't sound like are real good idea, I suppose there's a way to make it print so that it's not forgeable or duplicatable... at home... but I'm not sure how that would work.

Along the line of this Internet Voting being safe.. i think not.
"
Source: Haaretz (http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/israeli-hackers-bring-down-saudi-uae-stock-exchange-websites-1.407846)

Israeli hackers brought down the websites of both the Saudi Stock Exchange (Tadawul) and the Abu Dhabi Securities Exchange (ADX) Tuesday, in the latest episode of a continuing cyber war between hackers in the two countries.

The Israeli hackers, who go by the name IDF-Team, were able to paralyze the Tadawul website, while causing significant delays to the ADX exchange site.
Tel Aviv Stock Exchange Bloomberg

The hackers wrote that the attack came in response to the “pathetic” hacking of Israeli sites on Monday. The hackers warned that if the attacks continue, they will “move to the next stage and paralyze websites for a period of two weeks to a month.” 

[jimnyc]

Along the line of this Internet Voting being safe.. i think not.

This is not a "safety" issue that you posted. They did the same thing that "anonymous" did to so many sites the other day - they simply inundate the servers in questions with requests until the server is crippled. It's definitely a matter of concern, and a good host would be able to reasonably control the attacks and get back online as the sites did the other day, but the data itself wasn't in question.

With too many variables out there that could potentially come into play, I'm against internet voting myself, but not because of fear of hackers changing the votes.

[ConHog]

I'm with Abby, Con, "Unlikely" is not good enough, you say that the NSA would be the one setting it up well most likely the job would probably be given the vendor with the lowest bid. And even if the NSA or NASA did set it up, they are not invulnerable the Chinese, Russians, Japanese, IRAN!!!!! or even Israel as well as multinational corporations ALL with the dollars expertise and well known interest in our elections. Those are the top tier players not a group of basement hackers even though they to could potential be a serious problem. not to mention localities and party hacks.
No I don't like the idea at all.

and printing paper ballots from home doesn't sound like are real good idea, I suppose there's a way to make it print so that it's not forgeable or duplicatable... at home... but I'm not sure how that would work.

I didn't say the NSA would set anything up. I DID say they could provide the necessary encryption software to keep it secure. I in noway want teh NSA running elections.

[ConHog]

This is not a "safety" issue that you posted. They did the same thing that "anonymous" did to so many sites the other day - they simply inundate the servers in questions with requests until the server is crippled. It's definitely a matter of concern, and a good host would be able to reasonably control the attacks and get back online as the sites did the other day, but the data itself wasn't in question.

With too many variables out there that could potentially come into play, I'm against internet voting myself, but not because of fear of hackers changing the votes.

Yep, it's called a denial of service attack, and is one of the most basic forms on internet trouble making there is. As you point out, no data was in danger, it's not really hacking, it's simply spamming a server.

Other than potential hackers, and possibly limited access to internet voting, both of which I've addressed, what concerns do you have?