Agreement reached on illegal-alien amnesty

[Little-Acorn]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070517/ap_on_go_co/immigration_congress&printer=1;_ylt=AvnRRSqGzEiEBrTS0r7i.g.MwfIE

Key senators and the White House reached agreement Thursday on an immigration overhaul that would grant quick legal status to millions of illegal immigrants already in the U.S. and fortify the border. The plan would create a temporary worker program to bring new arrivals to the U.S. A separate program would cover agricultural workers. New high-tech enforcement measures also would be instituted to verify that workers are here legally.

The compromise came after weeks of painstaking closed-door negotiations that brought the most liberal Democrats and the most conservative Republicans together with President Bush's Cabinet officers to produce a highly complex measure that carries heavy political consequences. Sen. Edward M. Kennedy, D-Mass., said he expects Bush to endorse the agreement.

The accord sets the stage for what promises to be a bruising battle next week in the Senate on one of Bush's top non-war priorities. The key breakthrough came when negotiators struck a bargain on a so-called "point system" that would for the first time prioritize immigrants' education and skill level over family connections in deciding how to award green cards.

The draft bill "gives a path out of the shadows and toward legal status for those who are currently here" illegally, said Sen. Dianne Feinstein, D-Calif.

A spokesman for Sen. Jon Kyl, R-Ariz., one of his party's key players in the talks, confirmed that the group had reached agreement.

The proposed agreement would allow illegal immigrants to come forward and obtain a "Z visa" and — after paying fees and a $5,000 fine — ultimately get on track for permanent residency, which could take between eight and 13 years. Heads of household would have to return to their home countries first.

They could come forward right away to claim a probationary card that would let them live and work legally in the U.S., but could not begin the path to permanent residency or citizenship until border security improvements and the high-tech worker identification program were completed. A new temporary guest worker program would also have to wait until those so-called "triggers" had been activated.

Those workers would have to return home after work stints of two years, with little opportunity to gain permanent legal status or ever become U.S. citizens. They could renew their guest worker visas twice, but would be required to leave for a year in between each time.

OR... they could stay quiet as they have been for decades, NOT pay the fine, NOT go home, and stay here permanently just as they have been.

What a laugh. Which path do YOU think they'll choose?

The only difference this "plan" will make, is that people who want to come in illegally but haven't done so yet, will realize the balance in the govt is swinging toward complete amnesty. It's just not all the way there yet. But they will redouble their efforts to get in illegally so they can cash in when the time does come, and last year's flood across our border will become this year's deluge.

These liberals (in both parties) are so cute, with their little notions that 20 million people who have benefitted immensely by coming in illegally, working illegally, and staying illegaly, will turn around and start obeying the law.

That's charming in its naivete'. Unfortunately, it's not coming from Miss VanDeventer's third-grade class at the local elementary school, but from THE LEADERS OF OUR NATION'S GOVERNMENT.

We, the American voters, put those people into majorities last November. Now we are getting exactly the government we deserve.

[Doniston]

OR... they could stay quiet as they have been for decades, NOT pay the fine, NOT go home, and stay here permanently just as they have been.

What a laugh. Which path do YOU think they'll choose?

The only difference this "plan" will make, is that people who want to come in illegally but haven't done so yet, will realize the balance in the govt is swinging toward complete amnesty. It's just not all the way there yet. But they will redouble their efforts to get in illegally so they can cash in when the time does come, and last year's flood across our border will become this year's deluge.

These liberals (in both parties) are so cute, with their little notions that 20 million people who have benefitted immensely by coming in illegally, working illegally, and staying illegaly, will turn around and start obeying the law.

That's charming in its naivete'. Unfortunately, it's not coming from Miss VanDeventer's third-grade class at the local elementary school, but from THE LEADERS OF OUR NATION'S GOVERNMENT.

We, the American voters, put those people into majorities last November. Now we are getting exactly the government we deserve. This is an absolutely STUPID approach. T'will never pass, or even work (if it did pass.

[musicman]

We, the American voters, put those people into majorities last November. Now we are getting exactly the government we deserve.

In a classic example of "squeaky wheel syndrome" (LOL) - I agree with every letter and syllable of your post except this. What I'm hearing from you (perhaps mistakenly) is that this is, somehow, a Democrat thing. I can't go along with that.

Rather, I believe that this is the tragic culmination of a decades-long war for the soul of the Republican Party - and the bad guys have won. As desperately as the Democrats need to make it appear that the '06 election was about the Iraq war, it wasn't. What the hell are they using - exit polls? GMAF break. I order to "exit" a polling place, one first must have... ENTERED it.

Many voters - a decisive number, as it turns out - tired and disgusted at the rape of conservatism by RINOs and pure capitalists - chose to vote, with their middle fingers, from their homes. I wish they had expended the energy necessary for a more surgical repudiation of this vile mindset, but they didn't.

The truth is the truth. Anyone looking for conservatism, the Constitution, or the rule of law needn't bother with the Republican Party any more. The war is over.

[nevadamedic]

In a classic example of "squeaky wheel syndrome" (LOL) - I agree with every letter and syllable of your post except this. What I'm hearing from you (perhaps mistakenly) is that this is, somehow, a Democrat thing. I can't go along with that.

Rather, I believe that this is the tragic culmination of a decades-long war for the soul of the Republican Party - and the bad guys have won. As desperately as the Democrats need to make it appear that the '06 election was about the Iraq war, it wasn't. What the hell are they using - exit polls? GMAF break. I order to "exit" a polling place, one first must have... ENTERED it.

Many voters - a decisive number, as it turns out - tired and disgusted at the rape of conservatism by RINOs and pure capitalists - chose to vote, with their middle fingers, from their homes. I wish they had expended the energy necessary for a more surgical repudiation of this vile mindset, but they didn't.

The truth is the truth. Anyone looking for conservatism, the Constitution, or the rule of law needn't bother with the Republican Party any more. The war is over.

So we reward them for being here illegally?

[musicman]

So we reward them for being here illegally?

It would seem so. The Republican Party, as a meaningful entity in the American political arena, died today. It's over. We have entered a new dark age. Remember this day.

[Dilloduck]

It would seem so. The Republican Party, as a meaningful entity in the American political arena, died today. It's over. We have entered a new dark age. Remember this day.

Agreed----if this passes we've completed the step into globalism and we can kiss the country that we knew goodbye. A nation of Laws ? Bah

[Monkeybone]

does this mean i can stop paying taxes?

[musicman]

does this mean i can stop paying taxes?

LOL - let me know how that works out for you!

[musicman]

Agreed----if this passes we've completed the step into globalism and we can kiss the country that we knew goodbye. A nation of Laws ? Bah

Can't rep you yet, but you speak the truth.

Your new sig is right on the money; STOP GLOBAL AGING - LMAO! I just went out on my porch to fetch the mail, and had to wear my jacket. Damn that global warming!

[Monkeybone]

thinking how much i have seen this country change in my few years of life already makes me sad...and to think that it could just totally go down the shitter depresses me

[musicman]

thinking how much i have seen this country change in my few years of life already makes me sad...and to think that it could just totally go down the shitter depresses me

It very well could, Monkeybone. The War on Terror - the 2008 elections - these are secondary concerns now. It's time to get grim. The war is HERE - NOW - on our homeland - and concerning our very existence as a nation. And we might just lose; the resources our enemies possess are just staggering.

I've decided to go down fighting.

[Little-Acorn]

the resources our enemies possess are just staggering.

The resources WE possess dwarf anything they can bring to bear. That's why they are concentrating their efforts, not on meeting us head-on, but by trying to sap our will to fight.

They seem to be winning.

[nevadamedic]

Bush can still veto this bill, hopefully he does.

[OCA]

I told you people long ago this would come to pass, its best for America.

[nevadamedic]

I told you people long ago this would come to pass, its best for America.

How is this best for America? These people are felons by being in our country illegally. They need to be treated like it.

[musicman]

The resources WE possess dwarf anything they can bring to bear. That's why they are concentrating their efforts, not on meeting us head-on, but by trying to sap our will to fight.

They seem to be winning.

Over my dead body they'll win - and over yours, too, I suspect. But, never forget that one of our enemies' most formidable weapons is the apathy or ignorance of American voters themselves. Dig in for a long, bloody fight, Little Acorn.

[musicman]

Bush can still veto this bill, hopefully he does.

Why in God's name would he do that? This is HIS baby.

Bush is as likely to veto this as Bill Clinton is to turn down a blow job.

[OCA]

How is this best for America? These people are felons by being in our country illegally. They need to be treated like it.

If you can discuss this rationally without all the rhetoric i'd love to.

Think economics, its a bitter pill to swallow but Americans(thanks to unions) are no longer the most industrious workers when it comes to labor(which still has to be done) in the world.

The American government has for decades aloowed illegals to pour across the border with a wink and a nod because it realized that the American workforce was changing, it was becoming more educated and technologically based and this was all good and well but at the same time the traditionally labor intensive industries, agriculture and construction being prime examples, still needed workers and thoise workers were quickly becoming scarce, enter your illegals, these illegals when its all said and done keep the economies of several western states running whether you want to believe that or not...but it is a fact.

Now I understand the being here illegally dilemna, I do, but with the estimated 12,000,000 to 18,000,000 illegals already here what really are you going to do? You are never going to deport them, ever, its financially and logistically impossible, oh you may get a few here and there but the vast majority will live and die here without ever paying into the system. Now that we agree on that isn't it better to seal the border and get the ones already here on the path to citizenship? The opposite view of deportation and such, which is a fantasy is if you think hard about it...........an argument to continue the status quo.

[musicman]

If you can discuss this rationally without all the rhetoric i'd love to.

Think economics, its a bitter pill to swallow but Americans(thanks to unions) are no longer the most industrious workers when it comes to labor(which still has to be done) in the world.

This reasoning is flawed, because it assumes that human behavior is static; that it can't adjust to new realities. Hell, even animals can do that. One of our cats used to turn her nose up at dry cat food. Then she got accidentally locked up in the tool shed for a couple of days. You ought to see her go at that dry stuff now!


The American government has for decades aloowed illegals to pour across the border with a wink and a nod because it realized that the American workforce was changing, it was becoming more educated and technologically based and this was all good and well but at the same time the traditionally labor intensive industries, agriculture and construction being prime examples, still needed workers and thoise workers were quickly becoming scarce, enter your illegals, these illegals when its all said and done keep the economies of several western states running whether you want to believe that or not...but it is a fact.

Now I understand the being here illegally dilemna, I do, but with the estimated 12,000,000 to 18,000,000 illegals already here what really are you going to do? You are never going to deport them, ever, its financially and logistically impossible, oh you may get a few here and there but the vast majority will live and die here without ever paying into the system. Now that we agree on that isn't it better to seal the border and get the ones already here on the path to citizenship? The opposite view of deportation and such, which is a fantasy is if you think hard about it...........an argument to continue the status quo.

OCA, either we're a nation of laws or we aren't. Add to that the obvious mindset of pure capitalists of the George Bush ilk. What do you think their vision of the bright new future holds - representative government? The Constitution? Your desires? Mine? Grossly inefficient, my good man - grossly inefficient. Do you know that you are being complicit in your own destruction?

[Little-Acorn]

(The usual unsupported tripe about illegals being necesary to the economy deleted)

Now I understand the being here illegally dilemna, I do, but with the estimated 12,000,000 to 18,000,000 illegals already here what really are you going to do? You are never going to deport them, ever, its financially and logistically impossible, oh you may get a few here and there but the vast majority will live and die here without ever paying into the system. Now that we agree on that
(Looking around, trying to find the people OCA thinks agreed with him)


isn't it better to seal the border and get the ones already here on the path to citizenship? The opposite view of deportation and such, which is a fantasy is if you think hard about it...........an argument to continue the status quo.
Surrender is certainly an effective way to end a conflict.

What part of France did you say you were from, again?

Deportation is another effective way to deal with them. We should have used that method on each one, the instant he put a foot over the border. But we didn't, so we let about 20 million of them have an extended sojourn he hadn't earned. I hope they don't hold that against us. But it's time to do now what our own laws required we do then: Kick them out.

There are practical considerations, of course: How to tell which ones they are. They don't seem interested in telling us, except on May 1 of each year. And we can't have police stopping everyone in the street and demanding, "Your papers, please!". I haven't cared much for countries that did that. So we'll probably need to limit such prosecution to those who come into view of law enforcement for other reasons, whether it's a robbery, an assault, or a speeding ticket. We'll keep reducing the numbers that way, and also give them incentive to keep their noses clean.

Of course, today, the ones we deport can be back in the country almost beofre the deporation van gets back, simply by stepping across the border in most places. So we also need to build a GOOD fence, and expand the border Patrol enough to police it properly. Yes, that's expensive. But when you're invaded, you either surrender as OCA wants, or you build up your forces enough to repel it and count the cost later.

It would also be a good idea to eliminate some of the reasons the illegals are coming here in the first place. Prosecuting and jailing employers who knowingly hire illegals - and I mean the CEOs, not just the personnel troops - is a start. Making it so people born on US soil are citizens ONLY IF one or both parents is a citizen, would also help. That one might take a Constitutional amendment, I'm not sure.

Sure surrendering and giving amnesty would be an "effective" way to deal with the problem... depending on what "effect" you want to have. If you want to turn over the sovereign franchise to people who have no problem ignoring and breaking American laws, that would be a good way to do it. If you wanted to urge three, five, ten times as many people to come here for the NEXT round of amnesty, it would effectively accomplish that, too.

Why, exactly, do you want to have such an "effect", OCA? Because you don't want to work hard enough to accomplish anything better?

[OCA]

Exactly the rhetoric I was expecting. Not one economic issue was addressed, just emotions.

Your government is not going to deport illegals, never.

You are arguing for the status quo...being that they stay and stay under the radar.

Now, as for the attacks on me personally including my work ethic...well thts kind of liberal really.

Now I will address a couple of points that I thought relevant, the static point brought up by Music, Music whom BTW i've always respected....its exactly that we are not static that is the problem, we as a nation have become so progressed educationally and technologically and laborious jobs have become a victim of this progress, new employees entering the workplace simply do not want to start at the bottom like they used to, everybody wants what they want and they want it now, that is just reality. But, but, the labor jobs still have to get done and no Americans are lining up to do them, you know of anybody willing to work the fields in the San Joaquin Valley, CA in 110 degree heat from sunup to sundown? Neither do I, but Mexicans will do it and the farmers and ranchers are happy as hell to have them. Wouldn't matter if they offered 15 bucks an hour, no Americans would show up, simple as that.

Acorn...what is this imagined conflict you are in? What is it about deportation not being possible that I can help explain to you? We are already running huge deficits, the military is not getting paid and you want to blow some more cash chasing Mexicans around?

BTW my official position on this subject is seal the border first and grant amnesty to all NON-FELON illegals already in country. Hell i'll even trade all American currently on welfare and unwilling to work for illegals who are more than willing to work.

[loosecannon]

Well this plan sucks.

See WE do not need to get elected.

So WE won't do something stupid just get our asses re ELECTED.

But apparently both parties will.

I hope everybody remembers this.

[Dilloduck]

Can anyone think of a better way to CHEAPEN American citizenship ? Sure, I was lucky. I was born here but my great grandfathers weren't. They played by all the rules, learned English and busted thier asses in the South Dakota prairies and stone quarries. They were TOTALLY self sufficient, worked for everything they got and fought to protect Americas' freedom. What's an American citizenship worth today? NADA. ZZZZip

[Nukeman]

does this mean i can stop paying taxes?
Since when did you start paying taxes???? I dont think you pay all that much do you!!!!!!:cheers2: :cheers2:

[Kathianne]

Can anyone think of a better way to CHEAPEN American citizenship ? Sure, I was lucky. I was born here but my great grandfathers weren't. They played by all the rules, learned English and busted thier asses in the South Dakota prairies and stone quarries. They were TOTALLY self sufficient, worked for everything they got and fought to protect Americas' freedom. What's an American citizenship worth today? NADA. ZZZZip

Worse policy of Reagan, not the only bad, but worst. Now it's being copied.

[musicman]

Music whom BTW i've always respected....

Thanks, OCA - and right back at ya'.

For once, though, I'm at a loss for words on a political topic. Something vital was lost yesterday; the Republican Party has basically told conservative America, once and for all, to get fucked. Conservatives - the backbone of this country - no longer have a voice in their government. That this is going to have repurcussions could very well be the understatement of the last fifty years; maybe even the NEXT fifty.

[Monkeybone]

Since when did you start paying taxes???? I dont think you pay all that much do you!!!!!!:cheers2: :cheers2:

i pay enough to go 'what the hell' when i look at my check.

dick. :slap:

[theHawk]

Thanks, OCA - and right back at ya'.

For once, though, I'm at a loss for words on a political topic. Something vital was lost yesterday; the Republican Party has basically told conservative America, once and for all, to get fucked. Conservatives - the backbone of this country - no longer have a voice in their government. That this is going to have repurcussions could very well be the understatement of the last fifty years; maybe even the NEXT fifty.

I knew deep down there was a reason I was never a Republican! They are a bunch of globalist liberals just like the Dims.

[gabosaurus]

Has anyone really READ the entire piece of legislation? It's a lot tougher than you think.
To gain guest worker (and eventual citizenship) status, the immigrant must demonstrate English proficiency. It also better funds the border patrol and requires businesses to hire only documented workers.
It's not perfect, but it's a start.

[Doniston]

How is this best for America? These people are felons by being in our country illegally. They need to be treated like it.They are illegals, but NOT Felons.

[Doniston]

[QUOTE=OCA;60353]


Now I understand the being here illegally dilemna, I do, but with the estimated 12,000,000 to 18,000,000 illegals already here what really are you going to do? You are never going to deport them, ever, its financially and logistically impossible,

QUOTE] I agree completely with the above. But this bill has to be altered drastically for it to fly.

The fine is a non starter.

The border barracade, won't work,

A Photo Id system is necessary,

as is stiff fines for "Illegal" Employers.

But otherwise, we have no choice but to accept their presence.

[5stringJeff]

Has anyone really READ the entire piece of legislation? It's a lot tougher than you think.
To gain guest worker (and eventual citizenship) status, the immigrant must demonstrate English proficiency.

That's IF the illegal decides to come out of the woodwork and cooperate with the government. They've been hiding out for decades - why would they suddenly 'get religion' about citizenship, so to speak?


It also better funds the border patrol and requires businesses to hire only documented workers.
It's not perfect, but it's a start.

It's already a law that you can only hire legal aliens and/or citizens. And the border patrol is already ignoring the high-tech systems they've got (I read about this in the WSJ yesterday). What we need is a ground-up rebuilding of INS.

[5stringJeff]

Thanks, OCA - and right back at ya'.

For once, though, I'm at a loss for words on a political topic. Something vital was lost yesterday; the Republican Party has basically told conservative America, once and for all, to get fucked. Conservatives - the backbone of this country - no longer have a voice in their government. That this is going to have repurcussions could very well be the understatement of the last fifty years; maybe even the NEXT fifty.

This only becomes an issue that GOP politicians will deal with appropriately if we vote for people with the right stand on the issue. Any vote for McCain is a vote for amnesty; a vote for Tancredo, Paul, or Gingrich is a vote for keeping the damn illegals out!

[Little-Acorn]

The fine is a non starter.
Since it will keep most illegals from obeying the new law at all, I have to agree.


The border barracade, won't work,
Fences have worked everywhere we put them up, cutting illegal crossings by 90% or more in those areas. But that's partly because we've left most other areas unfenced, and the illegals have hired transportation to those other areas and crossed anyway. That still cuts it way down since the people they hire, don't come cheap and are not reliable. A fence will be 99% effective (my guess) if it covers the ENTIRE border and is patrolled adequately. That means spending almost 1/4 of our DAILY spending on Social Security, and expanding the Border Patrol to about 40K people. Nobody ever said maintaining border security for a major country was cheap. Just necessary.


A Photo Id system is necessary,
Not "necessary". Just one way to do what's needed... but a method horribly open to government abuse. As such, it is unacceptable. Fortunately, present methods are adequate, though far from efficient.


as is stiff fines for "Illegal" Employers.
Fines, shmines. When a company is found knowingly hiring illegals, teh personnel manager AND THE CEO get jail time. Let them write THAT off as a business expense. Hiring of illegals will stop REAL quick, believe me.


But otherwise, we have no choice but to accept their presence.
We have lots of choices. I've outlined a package of three above, which will effectively en illegal border crossings except for a few VERY well-connected illegals. How many are there like that?

The fourth part of the package, which is just as necessary, is to deport every illegal you find... AFTER the fence is built and staffed, of course, so they can't just walk right back in the same day. Identifying them is tough, of course - you can't have the police walking up to people on the street demanding "YOUR PAPERS, PLEASE!" of everybody, Soviet-style. So we must restrict such checks to people who come into view of law enforcement themselves. A mugging, assault, speeding ticket... or applying for a job. Legal residence is checked for all such, and illegals get deported.

It will spread the load to managable proportions, and give them incentive to keep their noses clean and out of the job market. It won't get them all - that is probably impossible. But it will get a lot of them over time. And meanwhile, the current incoming flood will diminish to a small trickle... and free up the ICE folks to concentrate more on each one who does manage to get in.

All four parts of this package are necessary - Building the fence, patrolling it adequately, punishing employers EFFECTIVELY who hire illegals knowiingly, and deporting the ones already here. All four parts work together to solve the illegal-alien-flood problem. If you do some and don't do others, the whole project will flop.

Anybody have better suggestions? I'm all ears.

"Grant them all amnesty" is hardly a better suggestion... speaking of non-starters.

[Dilloduck]

[QUOTE=OCA;60353]


Now I understand the being here illegally dilemna, I do, but with the estimated 12,000,000 to 18,000,000 illegals already here what really are you going to do? You are never going to deport them, ever, its financially and logistically impossible,

QUOTE] I agree completely with the above. But this bill has to be altered drastically for it to fly.

The fine is a non starter.

The border barracade, won't work,

A Photo Id system is necessary,

as is stiff fines for "Illegal" Employers.

But otherwise, we have no choice but to accept their presence.

If we deny illegals the cushy incentives that are keeping them here in the first place there will be no "massive deportation" necessary. Many will find life to difficult here and simply go back voluntarily. Pro-amnesty folks love to say "massive deporation" as if we were loading them all up on a train and sending them to Auschwitz.

[Monkeybone]

one of the main things about anything we do is the word enforcement. we give them this amnesty and make the consequences harder for iilegals or businesses that have them working for them...ok, but how do we enforce that. you tink the gov really want to spend money on paying ppl to check/making a new agency sorta thing to enforce it all?

[glockmail]

Two rows of razor wire 400 yards apart with free fire in between- both borders, Mexico and Canada. Round up the illegals and make them build it.

[Monkeybone]

yah! keep those dirty Canadians out!

[nevadamedic]

(Looking around, trying to find the people OCA thinks agreed with him)


Surrender is certainly an effective way to end a conflict.

What part of France did you say you were from, again?

Deportation is another effective way to deal with them. We should have used that method on each one, the instant he put a foot over the border. But we didn't, so we let about 20 million of them have an extended sojourn he hadn't earned. I hope they don't hold that against us. But it's time to do now what our own laws required we do then: Kick them out.

There are practical considerations, of course: How to tell which ones they are. They don't seem interested in telling us, except on May 1 of each year. And we can't have police stopping everyone in the street and demanding, "Your papers, please!". I haven't cared much for countries that did that. So we'll probably need to limit such prosecution to those who come into view of law enforcement for other reasons, whether it's a robbery, an assault, or a speeding ticket. We'll keep reducing the numbers that way, and also give them incentive to keep their noses clean.

Of course, today, the ones we deport can be back in the country almost beofre the deporation van gets back, simply by stepping across the border in most places. So we also need to build a GOOD fence, and expand the border Patrol enough to police it properly. Yes, that's expensive. But when you're invaded, you either surrender as OCA wants, or you build up your forces enough to repel it and count the cost later.

It would also be a good idea to eliminate some of the reasons the illegals are coming here in the first place. Prosecuting and jailing employers who knowingly hire illegals - and I mean the CEOs, not just the personnel troops - is a start. Making it so people born on US soil are citizens ONLY IF one or both parents is a citizen, would also help. That one might take a Constitutional amendment, I'm not sure.

Sure surrendering and giving amnesty would be an "effective" way to deal with the problem... depending on what "effect" you want to have. If you want to turn over the sovereign franchise to people who have no problem ignoring and breaking American laws, that would be a good way to do it. If you wanted to urge three, five, ten times as many people to come here for the NEXT round of amnesty, it would effectively accomplish that, too.

Why, exactly, do you want to have such an "effect", OCA? Because you don't want to work hard enough to accomplish anything better?

Deportation is not effective. They are back witin a week of getting back to Mexico. We should have a labor camp prison set up for illegals from any country. They should have to do HARD time in a labor camp in the desert for a few years then sent back, that would make them think twice about being here illegally.

[nevadamedic]

This only becomes an issue that GOP politicians will deal with appropriately if we vote for people with the right stand on the issue. Any vote for McCain is a vote for amnesty; a vote for Tancredo, Paul, or Gingrich is a vote for keeping the damn illegals out!

Guiliani and Romney will fight to keep the illegals out as well.

[glockmail]

Guiliani and Romney will fight to keep the illegals out as well.

I don't have much faith in either one of them.

[glockmail]

yah! keep those dirty Canadians out! Gotta be fair, man. Otherwise the libs will call us racist.

And while were at it: electrify both coasts! Damn the slant eyes and the Europeans.

[nevadamedic]

Guiliani and Romney will fight to keep the illegals out as well.

Also if you get caught here ilegally the you should never be allowed to get citizenship.

[Doniston]

Since it will keep most illegals from obeying the new law at all, I have to agree. OK, point for point. at least we agree on the frst one.



Fences have worked everywhere we put them up, cutting illegal crossings by 90% or more in those areas. But that's partly because we've left most other areas unfenced, and the illegals have hired transportation to those other areas and crossed anyway. That still cuts it way down since the people they hire, don't come cheap and are not reliable. A fence will be 99% effective (my guess) if it covers the ENTIRE border and is patrolled adequately. That means spending almost 1/4 of our DAILY spending on Social Security, and expanding the Border Patrol to about 40K people. Nobody ever said maintaining border security for a major country was cheap. Just necessary.[/quote} I disagree. based on the remainder of your own paragraph. All they do is cross somewhere else, or dig under, -----or--------"



Not "necessary". Just one way to do what's needed... but a method horribly open to government abuse. As such, it is unacceptable. Fortunately, present methods are adequate, though far from efficient. once more I disagree. we have state drivers licenses, etc. which are photo Ids, I think what you object to here, is the government insisting on such controls.



Fines, shmines. When a company is found knowingly hiring illegals, teh personnel manager AND THE CEO get jail time. Let them write THAT off as a business expense. Hiring of illegals will stop REAL quick, believe me. I might agrre, but that woll never happen. the public would never stand for it.



We have lots of choices. I've outlined a package of three above, which will effectively en illegal border crossings except for a few VERY well-connected illegals. How many are there like that? we are out of realistic choices, and I think you are whistling Dixie to think there are very few.

[quote} Sorry, but I disagree with the rest of your plan. The fourth part of the package, which is just as necessary, is to deport every illegal you find... AFTER the fence is built and staffed, of course, so they can't just walk right back in the same day. Identifying them is tough, of course - you can't have the police walking up to people on the street demanding "YOUR PAPERS, PLEASE!" of everybody, Soviet-style. So we must restrict such checks to people who come into view of law enforcement themselves. A mugging, assault, speeding ticket... or applying for a job. Legal residence is checked for all such, and illegals get deported.

It will spread the load to managable proportions, and give them incentive to keep their noses clean and out of the job market. It won't get them all - that is probably impossible. But it will get a lot of them over time. And meanwhile, the current incoming flood will diminish to a small trickle... and free up the ICE folks to concentrate more on each one who does manage to get in.

All four parts of this package are necessary - Building the fence, patrolling it adequately, punishing employers EFFECTIVELY who hire illegals knowiingly, and deporting the ones already here. All four parts work together to solve the illegal-alien-flood problem. If you do some and don't do others, the whole project will flop.

Anybody have better suggestions? I'm all ears.

"Grant them all amnesty" is hardly a better suggestion... speaking of non-starters.Sorry, but I disagree very strongly to the remainder of your plans. Mostly because you are talking about 12,000,000 people. Controling it your way is simply out of the question, and impossible.

[Doniston]

Since it will keep most illegals from obeying the new law at all, I have to agree. OK, point for point. at least we agree on the frst one.



Fences have worked everywhere we put them up, cutting illegal crossings by 90% or more in those areas. But that's partly because we've left most other areas unfenced, and the illegals have hired transportation to those other areas and crossed anyway. That still cuts it way down since the people they hire, don't come cheap and are not reliable. A fence will be 99% effective (my guess) if it covers the ENTIRE border and is patrolled adequately. That means spending almost 1/4 of our DAILY spending on Social Security, and expanding the Border Patrol to about 40K people. Nobody ever said maintaining border security for a major country was cheap. Just necessary. I disagree. based on the remainder of your own paragraph. All they do is cross somewhere else, or dig under, -----or--------"



Not "necessary". Just one way to do what's needed... but a method horribly open to government abuse. As such, it is unacceptable. Fortunately, present methods are adequate, though far from efficient. once more I disagree. we have state drivers licenses, etc. which are photo Ids, I think what you object to here, is the government insisting on such controls.



Fines, shmines. When a company is found knowingly hiring illegals, teh personnel manager AND THE CEO get jail time. Let them write THAT off as a business expense. Hiring of illegals will stop REAL quick, believe me. I might agrre, but that woll never happen. the public would never stand for it.



We have lots of choices. I've outlined a package of three above, which will effectively en illegal border crossings except for a few VERY well-connected illegals. How many are there like that? we are out of realistic choices, and I think you are whistling Dixie to think there are very few.


Sorry, but I disagree with the rest of your plan. The fourth part of the package, which is just as necessary, is to deport every illegal you find... AFTER the fence is built and staffed, of course, so they can't just walk right back in the same day. Identifying them is tough, of course - you can't have the police walking up to people on the street demanding "YOUR PAPERS, PLEASE!" of everybody, Soviet-style. So we must restrict such checks to people who come into view of law enforcement themselves. A mugging, assault, speeding ticket... or applying for a job. Legal residence is checked for all such, and illegals get deported.

It will spread the load to managable proportions, and give them incentive to keep their noses clean and out of the job market. It won't get them all - that is probably impossible. But it will get a lot of them over time. And meanwhile, the current incoming flood will diminish to a small trickle... and free up the ICE folks to concentrate more on each one who does manage to get in.

All four parts of this package are necessary - Building the fence, patrolling it adequately, punishing employers EFFECTIVELY who hire illegals knowiingly, and deporting the ones already here. All four parts work together to solve the illegal-alien-flood problem. If you do some and don't do others, the whole project will flop.

Anybody have better suggestions? I'm all ears.

"Grant them all amnesty" is hardly a better suggestion... speaking of non-starters.Sorry, but I disagree very strongly to the remainder of your plans. Mostly because you are talking about 12,000,000 people. Controling it your way is simply out of the question, and impossible.

[Little-Acorn]

Controling it your way is simply out of the question, and impossible.
You're welcome to start explaining how or why. Until you do, your blanket statements have no merit.

[Doniston]

You're welcome to start explaining how or why. Until you do, your blanket statements have no merit.I have already done to, and you were saying I was wrong. but to the greatest degree, the sheer magnatude of the undertaking is too little too late. we do not have the facilities to imprison and/or deport 12 million people. thus while we might accidently run into 1 percent of them, the other 99 would not be greatly affected. and even with your fences, the imput would be greater than the ones we get rid of

We have no real choice but some sort of blanket amnesty--- but with teeth this time.

[Dilloduck]

I have already done to, and you were saying I was wrong. but to the greatest degree, the sheer magnatude of the undertaking is too little too late. we do not have the facilities to imprison and/or deport 12 million people. thus while we might accidently run into 1 percent of them, the other 99 would not be greatly affected. and even with your fences, the imput would be greater than the ones we get rid of

We have no real choice but some sort of blanket amnesty--- but with teeth this time.

Garbage---if their benefits are cut, employers are fined and jailed, and they KNOW that they are being targeted a large percentage will leave, using the same method they used to get here.

[nevadamedic]

Since it will keep most illegals from obeying the new law at all, I have to agree.


Fences have worked everywhere we put them up, cutting illegal crossings by 90% or more in those areas. But that's partly because we've left most other areas unfenced, and the illegals have hired transportation to those other areas and crossed anyway. That still cuts it way down since the people they hire, don't come cheap and are not reliable. A fence will be 99% effective (my guess) if it covers the ENTIRE border and is patrolled adequately. That means spending almost 1/4 of our DAILY spending on Social Security, and expanding the Border Patrol to about 40K people. Nobody ever said maintaining border security for a major country was cheap. Just necessary.


Not "necessary". Just one way to do what's needed... but a method horribly open to government abuse. As such, it is unacceptable. Fortunately, present methods are adequate, though far from efficient.


Fines, shmines. When a company is found knowingly hiring illegals, teh personnel manager AND THE CEO get jail time. Let them write THAT off as a business expense. Hiring of illegals will stop REAL quick, believe me.


We have lots of choices. I've outlined a package of three above, which will effectively en illegal border crossings except for a few VERY well-connected illegals. How many are there like that?

The fourth part of the package, which is just as necessary, is to deport every illegal you find... AFTER the fence is built and staffed, of course, so they can't just walk right back in the same day. Identifying them is tough, of course - you can't have the police walking up to people on the street demanding "YOUR PAPERS, PLEASE!" of everybody, Soviet-style. So we must restrict such checks to people who come into view of law enforcement themselves. A mugging, assault, speeding ticket... or applying for a job. Legal residence is checked for all such, and illegals get deported.

It will spread the load to managable proportions, and give them incentive to keep their noses clean and out of the job market. It won't get them all - that is probably impossible. But it will get a lot of them over time. And meanwhile, the current incoming flood will diminish to a small trickle... and free up the ICE folks to concentrate more on each one who does manage to get in.

All four parts of this package are necessary - Building the fence, patrolling it adequately, punishing employers EFFECTIVELY who hire illegals knowiingly, and deporting the ones already here. All four parts work together to solve the illegal-alien-flood problem. If you do some and don't do others, the whole project will flop.

Anybody have better suggestions? I'm all ears.

"Grant them all amnesty" is hardly a better suggestion... speaking of non-starters.

Fences wont work. They have high tech tunnels that they are using now.

[Doniston]

Garbage---if their benefits are cut, employers are fined and jailed, and they KNOW that they are being targeted a large percentage will leave, using the same method they used to get here. OK, you covered employers getting fined or jailed. but where do you get the idea their benefits would be cut??, and that there would be enough employers who would not cheat to make a difference? (They are also being targeted now. so more come) Show me the garbage.---Please.

[OCA]

Garbage---if their benefits are cut, employers are fined and jailed, and they KNOW that they are being targeted a large percentage will leave, using the same method they used to get here.

And thus the reason for amnesty, they will no longer be illegal shortly and employers will not have to fear the government because they endeavered to keep their businesses afloat.

I told you this was gonna happen.

[5stringJeff]

Fences wont work. They have high tech tunnels that they are using now.

Then start using guns.

[OCA]

Then start using guns.


Not very Christian like.

[5stringJeff]

Not very Christian like.

Not very Christian to use guns for self-defense? That's essentially what would be happening.

[OCA]

Not very Christian to use guns for self-defense? That's essentially what would be happening.

Self defense for what? Are they physically attacking you?

Why not make them citizens....wait thats happening shortly.......ok when that happens and the playing field is level and above board lets see if the American worker can compete. My money says he can't, he'll get outworked, quantity and quality.

[5stringJeff]

Self defense for what? Are they physically attacking you?

Why not make them citizens....wait thats happening shortly.......ok when that happens and the playing field is level and above board lets see if the American worker can compete. My money says he can't, he'll get outworked, quantity and quality.

I understand your argument about the supply of labor, and I'm not argunig that many, if not most, illegals work harder for less money than Americans do. But the fact is that all illegals are breaking the law by entering the country, and the Army (or, preferably, the National Guard) ought to be on the borders, enforcing the law on the foreign illegals who are attempting to enter the country. As for the illelgas who are already here, they should be deported as they are found. As fewer illegals are around, more low-skill jobs open up for American workers.

[Pale Rider]

It would seem so. The Republican Party, as a meaningful entity in the American political arena, died today. It's over. We have entered a new dark age. Remember this day.

It's sad. It's really, really sad. But I've heard rumbling that it won't pass.

[OCA]

I understand your argument about the supply of labor, and I'm not argunig that many, if not most, illegals work harder for less money than Americans do. But the fact is that all illegals are breaking the law by entering the country, and the Army (or, preferably, the National Guard) ought to be on the borders, enforcing the law on the foreign illegals who are attempting to enter the country. As for the illelgas who are already here, they should be deported as they are found. As fewer illegals are around, more low-skill jobs open up for American workers.


Americans for the most part are overqualified nor do they want in this day and age low-skill jobs.

[5stringJeff]

Americans for the most part are overqualified nor do they want in this day and age low-skill jobs.

I read a couple of months ago about a bust on a chicken processing plant in Colorado. They arrested dozens of illegals. The very next day, guess who was lined up outside the door waiting to get a job? Americans! Some poor, some young, some both, but all of them wanted one of those jobs that an illegal held. So perhaps some Americans think themselves too high and mighty for such work, but all do not.

[Pale Rider]

They are illegals, but NOT Felons.

Entering this country by jumping the border is a felony.

[Pale Rider]

Now I understand the being here illegally dilemna, I do, but with the estimated 12,000,000 to 18,000,000 illegals already here what really are you going to do? You are never going to deport them, ever, its financially and logistically impossible,
Why? Just like winning the war in Iraq is impossilbe? Teddy Rosevelt once said, "when the going gets tough, the tough get going.". I don't believe for one second that we couldn't deport each and every single illegal, "if we wanted to."


The fine is a non starter.
The fine is one brick in the wall, and a crutial one.


The border barracade, won't work.
Again, you're wrong. They DID build the fence by SanDiego, and illegals entering near there dropped by 95%!!!


A Photo Id system is necessary.
You'll have to get them to come FORWARD in order for this to work.


But otherwise, we have no choice but to accept their presence.
Bullshit. That is the absolute attitude of a defeatist.

[Pale Rider]

This only becomes an issue that GOP politicians will deal with appropriately if we vote for people with the right stand on the issue. Any vote for McCain is a vote for amnesty; a vote for Tancredo, Paul, or Gingrich is a vote for keeping the damn illegals out!

Tom Tancredo... you bet. I made up my mind to vote for him a long time ago.

[Pale Rider]

Deportation is not effective. They are back witin a week of getting back to Mexico. We should have a labor camp prison set up for illegals from any country. They should have to do HARD time in a labor camp in the desert for a few years then sent back, that would make them think twice about being here illegally.

We build the fence and they won't be back soon. And keeping them in a prison camp would cost more than deporting them.

[Pale Rider]

Guiliani and Romney will fight to keep the illegals out as well.

Guilliani will never be able to get the republican nomination. His stance on abortion has already shot his chance. He simply won't carry the ticket.

I also wouldn't trust Romney. Parts of Utah have become sanctuary cities.

Tom Tancredo is our best bet.

[loosecannon]

We build the fence and they won't be back soon. And keeping them in a prison camp would cost more than deporting them.

Anybody who says we can't secure a simple border is FOS.

Anybody who says we can not round up illegals here is savvy to the challenge but still FOS.

Letting 12,000,000 people enter illegally is an astronomical fuck up.

But it can be ammended.

[Pale Rider]

Sorry, but I disagree very strongly to the remainder of your plans. Mostly because you are talking about 12,000,000 people. Controling it your way is simply out of the question, and impossible.

I couldn't disagree more. If we just threw up our arms and said that's impossible every time we were faced with a daunting task, this country wouldn't even exist.

I think kicking out the illegals that are here is completely doable, just as many have outlined here.

[loosecannon]

I read a couple of months ago about a bust on a chicken processing plant in Colorado. They arrested dozens of illegals. The very next day, guess who was lined up outside the door waiting to get a job? Americans! Some poor, some young, some both, but all of them wanted one of those jobs that an illegal held. So perhaps some Americans think themselves too high and mighty for such work, but all do not.

5string I read about that as well. Americans want the jobs, but at real wages and with some legal protections. That is fair.

[Pale Rider]

Fences wont work. They have high tech tunnels that they are using now.

If they were confined to entering using only their tunnels, we'd find them and shut them down in no time at all.

[loosecannon]

Self defense for what? Are they physically attacking you?

Why not make them citizens....wait thats happening shortly.......ok when that happens and the playing field is level and above board lets see if the American worker can compete. My money says he can't, he'll get outworked, quantity and quality.

For the same wages and treatment yes.

So what? Pay a fair wage and deal with it.

[loosecannon]

Fences wont work. They have high tech tunnels that they are using now.

"They" had ONE modest tech tunnel in SD.

Now they do not.

[loosecannon]

Deportation is not effective. They are back witin a week of getting back to Mexico. We should have a labor camp prison set up for illegals from any country. They should have to do HARD time in a labor camp in the desert for a few years then sent back, that would make them think twice about being here illegally.

Anybody who says that a fence can not work is FOS.

If you live like you post then you belong in prison. Maximum security.

[chum43]

the only reason the illegals are all here is because "we" want them here and we let them come in hoardes because it was good for ruining america, and that is what the people in power want. This amnesty however is treason, and anyone that votes for it should be in prison.

[nevadamedic]

i pay enough to go 'what the hell' when i look at my check.

dick. :slap:

:clap:

[Pale Rider]

the only reason the illegals are all here is because "we" want them here and we let them come in hoardes because it was good for ruining america, and that is what the people in power want. This amnesty however is treason, and anyone that votes for it should be in prison.

Please do NOT include "me" when you say "we."

[nevadamedic]

one of the main things about anything we do is the word enforcement. we give them this amnesty and make the consequences harder for iilegals or businesses that have them working for them...ok, but how do we enforce that. you tink the gov really want to spend money on paying ppl to check/making a new agency sorta thing to enforce it all?

No, they would rather line their pockets with the money it would cost to hire people to enforce this.

[loosecannon]

the only reason the illegals are all here is because "we" want them here and we let them come in hoardes because it was good for ruining america, and that is what the people in power want. This amnesty however is treason, and anyone that votes for it should be in prison.

I agree with most of that.

But who is this "we"?

It is the business community that wants to import outsourcing of our economy.

It is the extranationalists who want to create a NAU.

It is politicos who want to recruit new party voters.

The American people do NOT want this.

I definitely agree with the treason comment. Representing folks who are NOT YET citizens is treason. Esp when it forces you to mis-represent current citizens.

[Pale Rider]

I definitely agree with the treason comment. Representing folks who are NOT YET citizens is treason. Esp when it forces you to mis-represent current citizens.

You can add "aiding and abetting" to that, which is a felony.

[nevadamedic]

Please do NOT include "me" when you say "we."

Dont include me either. They take our jobs, welfare and scholarships. They are not welcome.

[chum43]

by we I meant congress and whoever else it is that puts shit like this through secretively and without letting anyone know about it... apparently this is more than amnesty, it allows their families to come over, this will not only legalize all the foreign felons in the country, it will allow that population to double before it becomes official... favoring a foreign occupation from a third world country and sacrificing the sovereignty of America against the will and good of the people IS TREASON and should be treated as such. I'll go even further, this is so bad for America and what it stands for, that the streets of Washington should be flowing with the blood of these treasonous fucks. America is over and canamexico has begun, and NONE of us want that, it's being done behind our backs.

[loosecannon]

by we I meant congress and whoever else it is that puts shit like this through secretively and without letting anyone know about it... apparently this is more than amnesty, it allows their families to come over, this will not only legalize all the foreign felons in the country, it will allow that population to double before it becomes official... favoring a foreign occupation from a third world country and sacrificing the sovereignty of America against the will and good of the people IS TREASON and should be treated as such. I'll go even further, this is so bad for America and what it stands for, that the streets of Washington should be flowing with the blood of these treasonous fucks. America is over and canamexico has begun, and NONE of us want that, it's being done behind our backs.

It is being done right out in the open.

I can only hope that a groundswell of resistance rises up to scare the politicos back 4 notches or a reversal.

But a reversal could be tricky once the absorption gets underway.

Making noise is the only remedy and this next week or three is key.

We need polls that say 80% of Americans are not just opposed but strongly.

The best way I know of to oppose this online is thru the news sites.

I actually can hardly believe there hasn't already been big Inet noise about this.

[loosecannon]

You can add "aiding and abetting" to that, which is a felony.

Pale R, this may be an anomoly issue in which neither party will take more heat that the other for letting this slide thru. Therefore it is no harm/no foul from a partisan POV.

As long as there is two party monopoly certain issues do not damage either party and therefore they can afford to violate the will of most of us.

We ARE a republic. At the core we are designed out of the decisions.

[Pale Rider]

Pale R, this may be an anomoly issue in which neither party will take more heat that the other for letting this slide thru. Therefore it is no harm/no foul from a partisan POV.

As long as there is two party monopoly certain issues do not damage either party and therefore they can afford to violate the will of most of us.

We ARE a republic. At the core we are designed out of the decisions.

I wish there was a way to form a rebellion. I'd be in it, gauranteed. I sit in total disbelief that our own government is doing this. We can only vote them out, but unfortunately, at this point in time, it's too late. I think decisions such as these should be put to a national referendum, then these treasonous fucks wouldn't be able to sell out the country.

[chum43]

thats what I mean by behind out backs... not only does our say on the issue not matter, we won't even be told the details until after it is passed... I keep seeing so many unbelievable things being put through that ruin america, they put them through today, and let us know about it tomorow in a "no debate" situation, it happened with the patriot act, it is happening with the NAU and National ID cards, and here it is again with opening the flood gates of immigration, I honestly think we will come to a point in the next 5-15 years where the only way to save this country from complete ruin will be a physical and violent revolution, things are so much worse than they make it out to be. They are dismantling america from the inside. In a few years when they start confiscating all the guns and filling the FEMA internment camps with anyone who refuses you'll know what I mean.

sorry but things like this just piss me off so much, there is NO reason for it, other than to destroy the greatest country in the world and the biggest threat to the global elite and their huge moneymaking slave operations.

[emmett]

By 2015 or so we will qualify as minorities

[Pale Rider]

thats what I mean by behind out backs... not only does our say on the issue not matter, we won't even be told the details until after it is passed... I keep seeing so many unbelievable things being put through that ruin america, they put them through today, and let us know about it tomorow in a "no debate" situation, it happened with the patriot act, it is happening with the NAU and National ID cards, and here it is again with opening the flood gates of immigration, I honestly think we will come to a point in the next 5-15 years where the only way to save this country from complete ruin will be a physical and violent revolution, things are so much worse than they make it out to be. They are dismantling america from the inside. In a few years when they start confiscating all the guns and filling the FEMA internment camps with anyone who refuses you'll know what I mean.

sorry but things like this just piss me off so much, there is NO reason for it, other than to destroy the greatest country in the world and the biggest threat to the global elite and their huge moneymaking slave operations.

I wish I had a dollar for every time I've said that. I'd welcome it. Hell... I'd LEAD it.

[loosecannon]

I wish there was a way to form a rebellion. I'd be in it, gauranteed. I sit in total disbelief that our own government is doing this. We can only vote them out, but unfortunately, at this point in time, it's too late. I think decisions such as these should be put to a national referendum, then these treasonous fucks wouldn't be able to sell out the country.

Well, make noise PR.

I really don't know what kinda noise we should make but it should be loud and directed toward EVERY poll seeking the presidency in 08.

Letters to editorials help as do letters to pol candidates, and congressmen.

Let em know IF they vote yes they can count on no support.

[loosecannon]

thats what I mean by behind out backs... not only does our say on the issue not matter, we won't even be told the details until after it is passed... I keep seeing so many unbelievable things being put through that ruin america, they put them through today, and let us know about it tomorow in a "no debate" situation, it happened with the patriot act, it is happening with the NAU and National ID cards, and here it is again with opening the flood gates of immigration, I honestly think we will come to a point in the next 5-15 years where the only way to save this country from complete ruin will be a physical and violent revolution, things are so much worse than they make it out to be. They are dismantling america from the inside. In a few years when they start confiscating all the guns and filling the FEMA internment camps with anyone who refuses you'll know what I mean.

sorry but things like this just piss me off so much, there is NO reason for it, other than to destroy the greatest country in the world and the biggest threat to the global elite and their huge moneymaking slave operations.

Make noise. Find who in your state is for and against and send em letters.

"You want my vote: vote no"

"You want me as an adversary: vote yes"

We are just a handful of steps away from the NAU.

[Pale Rider]

Well, make noise PR.

I really don't know what kinda noise we should make but it should be loud and directed toward EVERY poll seeking the presidency in 08.

Letters to editorials help as do letters to pol candidates, and congressmen.

Let em know IF they vote yes they can count on no support.

I usually send three or four emails a week to our elected officials. I let them know in no uncertain terms just exactly how I feel. They have dressed up mass responses that really aren't committal one way or the other. Just a bunch of political double talk. Except from Tom Tancredo, whom I will vote for for president. I've also made several contributions to his campaign.

[loosecannon]

here is the problem:

http://www.pollingreport.com/immigration.htm

poll shows Americans got hood winked by the complex presentation of the plans.

[chum43]

I wish I had a dollar for every time I've said that. I'd welcome it. Hell... I'd LEAD it.

I'm with you. I just hope if things really are going to hell we get a chance before it's too late.

and by the way, make no mistake about it, the traitors running this country want a foreign OCCUPATION... http://www.lcsun-news.com/latest/ci_5909340... they already have foreign recruiting offices for the American military set up in mexico city, it's despicable and it's all going according to plan.

[Pale Rider]

I'm with you. I just hope if things really are going to hell we get a chance before it's too late.

and by the way, make no mistake about it, the traitors running this country want a foreign OCCUPATION... http://www.lcsun-news.com/latest/ci_5909340... they already have foreign recruiting offices for the American military set up in mexico city, it's despicable and it's all going according to plan.

All with the approval of bush.

[nevadamedic]

Since it's a National Security issue they should make entering this country illegally or being a "Coyote" a capitol offense, which mean's they're eligable for the Death Penalty.

[chum43]

well it looks like the nevadan trio agrees, drastic measures need to be taken in the opposite direction.

[nevadamedic]

well it looks like the nevadan trio agrees, drastic measures need to be taken in the opposite direction.

Yea it's called a 9mm hollowpoint to the head.

[OCA]

I couldn't disagree more. If we just threw up our arms and said that's impossible every time we were faced with a daunting task, this country wouldn't even exist.

I think kicking out the illegals that are here is completely doable, just as many have outlined here.


Where is the money gonna come from Pale? Shit we can't even pay our friggin soldiers in Iraq and they sure as fuck are way more important than this shit.

Hell where is the manpower gonna come from? Are we gonna shakedown all hispanic looking people on the street?

The fucking barn door has been open for decades, the cows are in another state, goats have found a nice piece of the pasture they fit in and the owners of the barn are doing well economically because the barn door was open. Its too late and too impossible to get everything back in the barn. Call me a defeatist but it just ain't gonna fucking happen.

I'll tell ya, simply put this issue isn't a high priority on my list and it seems it isn't a high priority on the majority of America's list either since Demos swept in in 2006 and Demos were for some kind of amnesty.

[OCA]

I read a couple of months ago about a bust on a chicken processing plant in Colorado. They arrested dozens of illegals. The very next day, guess who was lined up outside the door waiting to get a job? Americans! Some poor, some young, some both, but all of them wanted one of those jobs that an illegal held. So perhaps some Americans think themselves too high and mighty for such work, but all do not.

Got a link for that? I believe that some people probably lined up for work but once hired and into the job a couple weeks they would quit, not enough benefits, too low of pay, its just the way we are as Americans now. The employers would see a decrease in production also.

[OCA]

Yea it's called a 9mm hollowpoint to the head.

So we're advocating murder now? Wow how low we've sunk.

[OCA]

The awful truth that nobody wants to admit to is that in the 20th century America's economy was slowly shaped to rely on this cheap labor, the dye is cast into stone now in the 21st century, illegals go and its bye bye economy, hell California will collapse and they are the world's 5th largest economy by theirselves and so goes California so goes America.

I guess I don't see how life would be different or better in any way, shape or form for me personally if they all left today....well except prices for products would be astronomically higher, bet ya wages wouldn't rise along with the products though.

I have come to the realization that America for me holds more economic promise than anything else, I mean socially its a shithole, school shootings, fags getting married, babies being murdered, kids getting sexually abused etc. etc. etc. so really the only thing holding it together still is you can make a buck here....don't want to see that shit on either.

[Gaffer]

Here's a point not mentioned. When all these illegals get their amnesty. they won't have to hide anymore. They also won't have to accept low wages anymore. They will have rights. Employers will now have to pay minimum wage instead of the few dollars a day they were paying. The cheap labor only remains cheap as long as the illegals remain illegal.

The government better watch out because this issue is bringing together liberals and conservatives. All calling for the replacing of the government by any means. If its going on here its going on elsewhere as well. Kinda makes anyone with the sense to look around sit up and take notice.

[loosecannon]

Here's a point not mentioned. When all these illegals get their amnesty. they won't have to hide anymore. They also won't have to accept low wages anymore. They will have rights. Employers will now have to pay minimum wage instead of the few dollars a day they were paying.

I agree and disagree.

As soon as they are thru the system they will want better jobs and education etc.....

But the plan is to make them enter as guest workers to qualify for the path to citizenship. The guest worker program is indentured servitude: they pay thousands for contracts, are guaranteed no work, their passports are seized when they arrive and they are stuck at the mercy of the co signer to the contract.

This is already happeneing in NO.

But without a real program to both secure the border and prevent illegal HIRING, we will STILL have millions crossing illegally no matter what the law says, just like today.

The bill proposed is a lose, lose, lose compromise.

[Dilloduck]

I agree and disagree.

As soon as they are thru the system they will want better jobs and education etc.....

But the plan is to make them enter as guest workers to qualify for the path to citizenship. The guest worker program is indentured servitude: they pay thousands for contracts, are guaranteed no work, their passports are seized when they arrive and they are stuck at the mercy of the co signer to the contract.

This is already happeneing in NO.

But without a real program to both secure the border and prevent illegal HIRING, we will STILL have millions crossing illegally no matter what the law says, just like today.

The bill proposed is a lose, lose, lose compromise.

The entire purpose of the bill is to advance the agenda of the gobalists. Period. Conservatives and liberals will awake one day to find they have fought each other all the way into servitude.

[Doniston]

Why? Just like winning the war in Iraq is impossilbe? Teddy Rosevelt once said, "when the going gets tough, the tough get going.". I don't believe for one second that we couldn't deport each and every single illegal, "if we wanted to."


The fine is one brick in the wall, and a crutial one.


Again, you're wrong. They DID build the fence by SanDiego, and illegals entering near there dropped by 95%!!!


You'll have to get them to come FORWARD in order for this to work.


Bullshit. That is the absolute attitude of a defeatist.

Point #1. Nonsense. They would have to arrest everyone who spoke with a spanish accent, or even looked hispanic. and suppose they did, where would you propose we store that many peiple. (or transport them as the case may be.

Point 2: The only one who would conform are those who own there own businesses, and that is simply because they were being grabbed by the short hairs.

Point 3. WSure, and they just started coming in in other places. (Proven Fact. For the walls to be even 95% successful, you would have to built about 4 thosand miles of walls, (Canada and the southwest, plus another 4,000 miles of seawall (more or less)

Point 4: The prospective employers would bring them forward -"IF" pressure wer put on them. Further, If they were unemployed otherwise they would leave, or come forward on their own (but not if the Fines were still likely)

Point five, not worthy of comment

[Doniston]

I couldn't disagree more. If we just threw up our arms and said that's impossible every time we were faced with a daunting task, this country wouldn't even exist.

I think kicking out the illegals that are here is completely doable, just as many have outlined here.

To my knowlege, the only one whos is saying that is YOU (aside from a couple of ambigious statements like this:

(quote) Anybody who says we can not round up illegals here is savvy to the challenge but still FOS.

I believe you are standing alone in that assumption.

[Pale Rider]

Where is the money gonna come from Pale? Shit we can't even pay our friggin soldiers in Iraq and they sure as fuck are way more important than this shit.

Hell where is the manpower gonna come from? Are we gonna shakedown all hispanic looking people on the street?
Well, the simple fact of the matter is, having the illegals here in America costs us far more than they contribute. If we started deporting them "when encountered", such as a traffic stop, arrested, etc., we could make a HUGE dent. Maybe couldn't get "ALL" of them, but we could sure come close. The money we'd save by kicking their asses out would more than pay for doing so.


The fucking barn door has been open for decades, the cows are in another state, goats have found a nice piece of the pasture they fit in and the owners of the barn are doing well economically because the barn door was open. Its too late and too impossible to get everything back in the barn. Call me a defeatist but it just ain't gonna fucking happen.
Probably not. Our elected officials are selling out America as we speak. If I was in charge, this sure the fuck wouldn't be happening. There would be train loads of illegals bound for mexico. If they didn't like it that way, we could go to war. Maybe they'd prefer being shot.


I'll tell ya, simply put this issue isn't a high priority on my list and it seems it isn't a high priority on the majority of America's list either since Demos swept in in 2006 and Demos were for some kind of amnesty.
Oh it's plenty high on plenty of American's list just like me. It's a huge security problem. It's an invasion. What do you think mexico would do if all of a sudden 18,000,000 Americans stampeded acrossed the border and marched through the streets of mexico city DEMANDING citizenship, and then sitting around living off mexican welfare and handouts while they made it legal? Shit, they'd start shooting us.

[Pale Rider]

Point #1. Nonsense. They would have to arrest everyone who spoke with a spanish accent, or even looked hispanic. and suppose they did, where would you propose we store that many peiple. (or transport them as the case may be.
Your response is more nonsense than mine. If you couldn't prove your an American citizen, you get a one way trip the hell otta here. It's so simple it's a gimme. And just like said many times already here, we could start doing that on a "when encountered" basis, and when illegals found out they were being deported and the jobs dry up, WE WOULDN'T NEED A FENCE. THEY SIMPLY WOULDN'T COME HERE ANYMORE.


Point 3. WSure, and they just started coming in in other places. (Proven Fact. For the walls to be even 95% successful, you would have to built about 4 thosand miles of walls, (Canada and the southwest, plus another 4,000 miles of seawall (more or less)
Proven fact my ass. You better back that up with more proof than just "I say so." Because it IS a fact, and was stated so in the last republican debate, the fence along the cal border at Sandiego resulted in a 95% decline in illegal entry. Your statements of a fence not working are bullshit in light of the TRUE facts.


Point 4: The prospective employers would bring them forward -"IF" pressure wer put on them. Further, If they were unemployed otherwise they would leave, or come forward on their own (but not if the Fines were still likely)

Point five, not worthy of comment
Your spelling and grammar are so piss poor, I can barely tell what the fuck it is you're trying to say. Do you DRINK BREAKFAST?

[loosecannon]

To my knowlege, the only one whos is saying that is YOU (aside from a couple of ambigious statements like this:

(quote) Anybody who says we can not round up illegals here is savvy to the challenge but still FOS.

I believe you are standing alone in that assumption.

Let's just put it this way Doniston:

If a nation state is the kind of government we are gonna select then we can and should take the necesary means to do that.

We can and should make the efforts to secure the border, which would be fairly easy if we put as much effort into it as we have into defending Iraq.

And we can and should make the effort to reverse the flow on illegals so that we are reducing their number daily.

It only makes a modest diff to me how long it takes to remove them all. We already deport 1 million aliens/year. If we had a secure southern border that would be enough already to reverse the trend.

Doubling that rate would be fairly easy.

Pay a citizens reward of $150 for each illegal. A US citizen or even an illegal could make a few thousand dollars for identifying a large family.

Make it a felony to hire illegals, with large fines to pay for the bounties.

We can do it if we are serious.

[Pale Rider]

To my knowlege, the only one whos is saying that is YOU (aside from a couple of ambigious statements like this:

(quote) Anybody who says we can not round up illegals here is savvy to the challenge but still FOS.

I believe you are standing alone in that assumption.

And I didn't say, "round them up", either. I said start deporting them on a "when encountered" basis. Yes, we could do that. Don't tell me we couldn't, because that just simply is NOT TRUE.

Take your white flag to france and wave it. They love that defeatist shit there.

[Pale Rider]

Let's just put it this way Doniston:

If a nation state is the kind of government we are gonna select then we can and should take the necesary means to do that.

We can and should make the efforts to secure the border, which would be fairly easy if we put as much effort into it as we have into defending Iraq.

And we can and should make the effort to reverse the flow on illegals so that we are reducing their number daily.

It only makes a modest diff to me how long it takes to remove them all. We already deport 1 million aliens/year. If we had a secure southern border that would be enough already to reverse the trend.

Doubling that rate would be fairly easy.

Pay a citizens reward of $150 for each illegal. A US citizen or even an illegal could make a few thousand dollars for identifying a large family.

Make it a felony to hire illegals, with large fines to pay for the bounties.

We can do it if we are serious.

There's the operative words right there.

[Doniston]

Let's just put it this way Doniston:

If a nation state is the kind of government we are gonna select then we can and should take the necesary means to do that.

We can and should make the efforts to secure the border, which would be fairly easy if we put as much effort into it as we have into defending Iraq.

And we can and should make the effort to reverse the flow on illegals so that we are reducing their number daily.

It only makes a modest diff to me how long it takes to remove them all. We already deport 1 million aliens/year. If we had a secure southern border that would be enough already to reverse the trend.

Doubling that rate would be fairly easy.

Pay a citizens reward of $150 for each illegal. A US citizen or even an illegal could make a few thousand dollars for identifying a large family.

Make it a felony to hire illegals, with large fines to pay for the bounties.

We can do it if we are serious. I agre with most of your post. but I disagree that we can deport a sufficient number to make the difference, and your bounty won't help either.

[Doniston]

And I didn't say, "round them up", either. I said start deporting them on a "when encountered" basis. Yes, we could do that. Don't tell me we couldn't, because that just simply is NOT TRUE.

Take your white flag to france and wave it. They love that defeatist shit there. I can only go by what you say

not what you may later decide you mean.

[nevadamedic]

We need to organize a campaign to get people to flood their Senators and Congressmen with letters of disgust. If enough noise is made, they will listen.

[5stringJeff]

Got a link for that? I believe that some people probably lined up for work but once hired and into the job a couple weeks they would quit, not enough benefits, too low of pay, its just the way we are as Americans now. The employers would see a decrease in production also.

Here's a link to the raid, which occurred in December. I watched the line-up for new jobs on the news, so I can't link to it.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,236044,00.html

[5stringJeff]

Let's just put it this way Doniston:

If a nation state is the kind of government we are gonna select then we can and should take the necesary means to do that.

We can and should make the efforts to secure the border, which would be fairly easy if we put as much effort into it as we have into defending Iraq.

And we can and should make the effort to reverse the flow on illegals so that we are reducing their number daily.

It only makes a modest diff to me how long it takes to remove them all. We already deport 1 million aliens/year. If we had a secure southern border that would be enough already to reverse the trend.

Doubling that rate would be fairly easy.

Pay a citizens reward of $150 for each illegal. A US citizen or even an illegal could make a few thousand dollars for identifying a large family.

Make it a felony to hire illegals, with large fines to pay for the bounties.

We can do it if we are serious.

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

[nevadamedic]

And I didn't say, "round them up", either. I said start deporting them on a "when encountered" basis. Yes, we could do that. Don't tell me we couldn't, because that just simply is NOT TRUE.

Take your white flag to france and wave it. They love that defeatist shit there.

:clap:

[chum43]

saying well we can't possibly send them all back, and saying hey bring your families and enjoy all these benefits(which is what they've been saying for decades) but now you can do it legally and as an american citizen... at the very least we should be forcing them to either start the process or be treated as criminals... no one realizes that they have been treated like superiors to us for years now. they get special treatment, not just over people who are immigrating legally, but over all of us, they have police protection and they rarely get called out. they cost us 3 times as much money as they make us. The only people that benefit from illegal immigrants being here are people who exploit cheap labor and the criminals who run here, and that won't go away because of this. This bill is accelerating the problem and solving nothing. They say "well at least we'll have a wall" thats supposed to be the compromise, securing the boarders. It's unbelievable, we're going to say bring your families flood in by the millions and then we'll build a wall to KEEP YOU IN! what good is securing the boarder if you are gonna let everyone on this side of the wall BEFORE YOU BUILD IT! It's simple high treason, not just some idiot compromise, this is washington screaming out "death to america!" pure and simple.

[nevadamedic]

saying well we can't possibly send them all back, and saying hey bring your families and enjoy all these benefits(which is what they've been saying for decades) but now you can do it legally and as an american citizen... at the very least we should be forcing them to either start the process or be treated as criminals... no one realizes that they have been treated like superiors to us for years now. they get special treatment, not just over people who are immigrating legally, but over all of us, they have police protection and they rarely get called out. they cost us 3 times as much money as they make us. The only people that benefit from illegal immigrants being here are people who exploit cheap labor and the criminals who run here, and that won't go away because of this. This bill is accelerating the problem and solving nothing. They say "well at least we'll have a wall" thats supposed to be the compromise, securing the boarders. It's unbelievable, we're going to say bring your families flood in by the millions and then we'll build a wall to KEEP YOU IN! what good is securing the boarder if you are gonna let everyone on this side of the wall BEFORE YOU BUILD IT! It's simple high treason, not just some idiot compromise, this is washington screaming out "death to america!" pure and simple.

:clap:

[OCA]

Well, the simple fact of the matter is, having the illegals here in America costs us far more than they contribute. If we started deporting them "when encountered", such as a traffic stop, arrested, etc., we could make a HUGE dent. Maybe couldn't get "ALL" of them, but we could sure come close. The money we'd save by kicking their asses out would more than pay for doing so.




Pale the whole point of making them citizens is to have them start paying into the system instead of leaching off of it. You guys act as if they are made citizens they will still be collecting welfare! These aren't Blacks or White trash, these people want to work their asses off!

[TheSage]

I told you people long ago this would come to pass, its best for America.

No it's not, you ignorant douchebag. Americans have died to preserve american sovereignty, and all the protections that implies, including an intact border and the labor market protections that implies.

[OCA]

No it's not, you ignorant douchebag. Americans have died to preserve american sovereignty, and all the protections that implies, including an intact border and the labor market protections that implies.


No, Americans in fact have fought to preserve European sovereignty in modern history.

An unargueable fact is America's economy is built upon this cheap labor, its by design. Now if they leave economy will collapse, you do want whats best for America don't you? No probably not, you want what is best for RWA.

[TheSage]

No, Americans in fact have fought to preserve European sovereignty in modern history.

An unargueable fact is America's economy is built upon this cheap labor, its by design. Now if they leave economy will collapse, you do want whats best for America don't you? No probably not, you want what is best for RWA.

The Amerian Revolution was fight for an independant american nation, WITH A BORDER.

THe demonstration of this willingness to defend our nation has also dissuaded attacks from the south, undoubtedly. And, Remember the Alamo. You're wrong on many levels.

The economy would not collapse. That's a lie.

[Dilloduck]

Commerce Secretary Gutierrez is already framing the vote on this bill on FOX. He plainly stated that a vote against this bill is a vote for the "status quo" or "mass deportation'. That's it folks---it's amnesty or status quo. Great choices. :fu:

[OCA]

The Amerian Revolution was fight for an independant american nation, WITH A BORDER.

THe demonstration of this willingness to defend our nation has also dissuaded attacks from the south, undoubtedly. And, Remember the Alamo. You're wrong on many levels.

The economy would not collapse. That's a lie.

We've got a border, seal it up, make the ones here already citizens and be done with it. That is what will pass congress shortly, God bless them.

Its over, your side lost.

[OCA]

Commerce Secretary Gutierrez is already framing the vote on this bill on FOX. He plainly stated that a vote against this bill is a vote for the "status quo" or "mass deportation'. That's it folks---it's amnesty or status quo. Great choices. :fu:

He is correct that the pov for roundups which are financially and logistically possible is a vote for the status quo.

[TheSage]

He is correct that the pov for roundups which are financially and logistically possible is a vote for the status quo.



YEs. They are financially and logistically possible. Freudian slip much, assnut?

The status quo is preferable to amnesty.

[Dilloduck]

We've got a border, seal it up, make the ones here already citizens and be done with it. That is what will pass congress shortly, God bless them.

Its over, your side lost.

Kennedy already tried to tell us that lie. Resistance to the bill is mounting by the day.

[TheSage]

We've got a border, seal it up, make the ones here already citizens and be done with it. That is what will pass congress shortly, God bless them.

Its over, your side lost.

No. It's not over. and you know as well as I do they won't seal the border.

We should deport ones here. God damn them to hell for their sellout of america.

[OCA]

YEs. They are financially and logistically possible. Freudian slip much, assnut?

The status quo is preferable to amnesty.

Explain how remembering we can't pay our soldiers in combat zones or find one fucking guy on the Pakistani border.

[TheSage]

Explain how remembering we can't pay our soldiers in combat zones or find one fucking guy on the Pakistani border.

Remaining status quo is better than moving in the wrong direction. Explain how you don't understand that.

[OCA]

Remaining status quo is better than moving in the wrong direction. Explain how you don't understand that.


I know, I know, the status quo allows you to have something to piss and moan about. If my POV fixes the problem(and it looks as though we are gonna fiund out as soon as the president get the bill on his desk and signs it which is in the bag) you would have zero to piss about....well except blaming 9/11 on the government.:laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2:

[Dilloduck]

Explain how remembering we can't pay our soldiers in combat zones or find one fucking guy on the Pakistani border.

Explain why you are in a huge minority on this issue.

http://www.numbersusa.com/interests/amnesty.html

[OCA]

Kennedy already tried to tell us that lie. Resistance to the bill is mounting by the day.

From who?

Played golf yesterday with a Richard Shelby staffer, he said he's gonna vote for it pretty much and thats a solid conservative right there.

Its over.

[TheSage]

I know, I know, the status quo allows you to have something to piss and moan about. If my POV fixes the problem(and it looks as though we are gonna fiund out as soon as the president get the bill on his desk and signs it which is in the bag) you would have zero to piss about....well except blaming 9/11 on the government.:laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2:

Your POV is based on lies that won't happen. They haven't said they're sealing they're border. They're going to throw a couple bucks at the problem, and not fix it at all.

The plan also relies on illegal aliens turning themselves in. That won't happen. It's one giant batch of shit with peanuts. Eat it up if you want. I'm not going to.

[nevadamedic]

Kennedy already tried to tell us that lie. Resistance to the bill is mounting by the day.

Has any Kennedy ever told us anything that wasn't a lie?

[OCA]

Your POV is based on lies that won't happen. They haven't said they're sealing they're border. They're going to throw a couple bucks at the problem, and not fix it at all.

The plan also relies on illegal aliens turning themselves in. That won't happen. It's one giant batch of shit with peanuts. Eat it up if you want. I'm not going to.


Who says they are lies, you?:laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2:

I mean as opposed to your view of continuing the status quo and letting them pour over the border.

Still waiting for you to quit dodging the question and explain to me how it is financially and logistically impossible.

[TheSage]

Who says they are lies, you?:laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2:

I mean as opposed to your view of continuing the status quo and letting them pour over the border.

Still waiting for you to quit dodging the question and explain to me how it is financially and logistically impossible.

We already have laws dealing with this that go unenforced. I have no confidence any aspect of this new pack of crap will be enforced. If you think they will be, you're a naive idiot.

Explain how what's impossible?

[Dilloduck]

Who says they are lies, you?:laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2:

I mean as opposed to your view of continuing the status quo and letting them pour over the border.

Still waiting for you to quit dodging the question and explain to me how it is financially and logistically impossible.

Hermetically seal that border and don't tell me it can't be done. Just self the damn thing. If 10-12 MILLION people aren't enough to get the work done here we're screwed anyway. AFTER we see it sealed we can talk about a worker program.

[OCA]

Hermetically seal that border and don't tell me it can't be done. Just self the damn thing. If 10-12 MILLION people aren't enough to get the work done here we're screwed anyway. AFTER we see it sealed we can talk about a worker program.


Ok, no problem with that, need to find the 10-12 million citizens willing to leave their jobs, homes and families to go down and stay in the desert a while policing the border. Don't think you'll get enough people willing to make that life altering decision, I certainly know I ain't going.

[nevadamedic]

Ok, no problem with that, need to find the 10-12 million citizens willing to leave their jobs, homes and families to go down and stay in the desert a while policing the border. Don't think you'll get enough people willing to make that life altering decision, I certainly know I ain't going.

I would!

[OCA]

Explain why you are in a huge minority on this issue.

http://www.numbersusa.com/interests/amnesty.html

The isuue has been dealt with to this point strictly on an emotional basis, nobody has taken the time to look at facts.

Hey if you guys want to boot em fine, I live in Maryland thankfully, its not one of the states where the economy is gonna take a shit although eventually America's economy as a whole is going to take a shit.

[OCA]

I would!

Cool, wonder how much it will pay?

[OCA]

We already have laws dealing with this that go unenforced. I have no confidence any aspect of this new pack of crap will be enforced. If you think they will be, you're a naive idiot.

Explain how what's impossible?

I've already explained, not enough manpower(logistics) and no money(financial). If they can't pay our soldiers in combat zones they can't afford this.

[nevadamedic]

Cool, wonder how much it will pay?

I mean patril the border.

[OCA]

I mean patril the border.

Thats what i'm saying unless you are gonna do it for free. You must be independently wealthy in that case.

[nevadamedic]

Thats what i'm saying unless you are gonna do it for free. You must be independently wealthy in that case.

Those guys make pretty good money.

[OCA]

Those guys make pretty good money.

Yeah they do......the ones already on staff.

[nevadamedic]

Yeah they do......the ones already on staff.

So do the new ones.

[Doniston]

Ok, no problem with that, need to find the 10-12 million citizens willing to leave their jobs, homes and families to go down and stay in the desert a while policing the border. Don't think you'll get enough people willing to make that life altering decision, I certainly know I ain't going. I have a hunch he made a typo and didn't mean that at all. "Course I could be wrong. too

[Kathianne]

Got a link for that? I believe that some people probably lined up for work but once hired and into the job a couple weeks they would quit, not enough benefits, too low of pay, its just the way we are as Americans now. The employers would see a decrease in production also.

Jeff posted a link previously about the raid, here's one regarding those applying for the jobs, but I see that you figure they would quit, if they existed?

Only difference between them appears to be legality:


Loss for one is another's gain

Applicants line up to fill jobs left empty by Swift plant raid

By Fernando Quintero, Rocky Mountain News
December 15, 2006

News Alert
A blizzard has blanketed the Denver metro area with more than a foot of snow. To get the latest on the winter storm click here.

GREELEY - The line of applicants hoping to fill jobs vacated by undocumented workers taken away by immigration agents at the Swift & Co. meat-processing plant earlier this week was out the door Thursday.

Among them was Derrick Stegall, who carefully filled out paperwork he hoped would get him an interview and eventually land him a job as a slaughterer. Two of his friends had been taken away by Immigration and Customs Enforcement agents and he felt compelled to fill their rubber boots.

"Luckily, they had no wives or family they left behind. But it was still sad. They left their apartments filled with all their stuff. I took two dogs one of them had. The other guy had a cat I gave to my sister," he said.

Greg Bonifacio heard about the job openings on television and brought his passport, his Colorado driver's license, his Social Security card and even a color photograph of himself as a young Naval officer to prove his military service.

"I don't want to hassle with any identification problems because of my last name," said Bonifacio, a 59- year-old Thornton resident of Filipino heritage.

As it turned out, the Colorado Workforce office that was taking applications did not require any identification.

That would come later for those who made it past the interview process.

Bonifacio was hoping to get a job in production or fabrication. So was Nathan Korgan, a former construction worker whose company closed and moved to California.

"I feel bad for the kids, but good for me," said Korgan of Tuesday's raid.

Like many others who had mixed emotions about the raid, Maxine Hernandez said she was upset that families were torn apart, but believes illegal immigrants should not get work using fake documents.

"I guess I'm in the middle," she said. "But I do think they should have planned (the raid) better so that innocent children wouldn't be left behind."

Hernandez, who had gone to the employment office because her husband was there to apply for unemployment insurance, decided to apply for a job at Swift on a whim.

"My whole family used to work there. My mom, my aunt, uncles," she said. "I guess it sort of runs in our blood."

Copyright 2006, Rocky Mountain News. All Rights Reserved.

[nevadamedic]

Jeff posted a link previously about the raid, here's one regarding those applying for the jobs, but I see that you figure they would quit, if they existed?

Only difference between them appears to be legality:

Huh?

[Kathianne]

Huh?

That was a response to OCA asking Jeff for a link, which he provided. Jeff didn't find a link to the Americans showing up to take the positions after the raid, I did and posted it.

[nevadamedic]

That was a response to OCA asking Jeff for a link, which he provided. Jeff didn't find a link to the Americans showing up to take the positions after the raid, I did and posted it.

Oh, ok, thanks :)

[OCA]

That was a response to OCA asking Jeff for a link, which he provided. Jeff didn't find a link to the Americans showing up to take the positions after the raid, I did and posted it.

Cool, I said I believed they showed up but whether they stuck around or the company got the shits of their lower production than the illegals remains unanswered.

[Kathianne]

Cool, I said I believed they showed up but whether they stuck around or the company got the shits of their lower production than the illegals remains unanswered.

Which is why my response confused that poster:

http://debatepolicy.com/showpost.php?p=62383&postcount=148

[Kathianne]

As for 'contributions' from illegals:

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/biztech/capitalcommerce/070521/a_day_without_mexicans.htm


« Immigration and Social Security


May 21, 2007
A Day Without Mexicans

Does the American economy really need low-skilled, low-wage Mexican immigrants? We sure do, according to the 2004 film A Day Without a Mexican. The satirical movie imagines what would happen to California if suddenly 14 million of its citizens of Mexican descent up and disappeared. As the film's website puts it:

"As time goes by, the State continues to deteriorate: Garbage has taken over the streets, and tears are permanently painted on the faces of most citizens as the 5th largest economy in the world tumbles. The realization that what has disappeared is the very thing that keeps the "California Dream" running–cooks, gardeners, policemen, nannies, doctors, farm and construction workers, entertainers, athletes, as well as the largest growing market of consumers–has turned Latinos and their return into the number one priority in the State."

Of course, the instantaneous disappearance of 14 million people of any ethnicity or race would be pretty disruptive, I would imagine. But the purpose of the film is to remind the rest of America how much immigrants contribute to society. Can you put a dollar figure on that? According to an often-cited 1997 study by the National Academy of Sciences, immigrants of all varieties add as much as $10 billion to the economy each year, primarily because of lower consumer prices caused by a decline in wages for low-skilled nonimmigrant workers.

But what do low-skilled immigrants cost America? Everything has its costs, of course. According to a new analysis by Robert Rector of the conservative Heritage Foundation, the average low-skilled immigrant household received $30,160 in direct benefits, means-tested benefits, education, and other services from all levels of government in 2004.

By contrast, low-skill immigrant households paid only $10,573 in taxes that year, meaning the average low-skill household had a fiscal deficit of $19,588. And what about retirement costs? Rector estimates that if all the current adult illegal immigrants in the United States were granted amnesty, the net retirement costs to government (benefits minus taxes) could be over $2.5 trillion.

A 2003 analysis by the Federal Reserve Bank of Dallas concluded that while high-skilled immigration had "good economic effects"–it added to economic growth and helped government finances–low-skilled immigration was more of a mixed picture. "The economic benefits are there as well but have to be balanced against the fiscal impact, which is likely negative," explained economist Pia Orrenius.

But doesn't America need low-skilled immigrants to do the jobs Americans won't? Well, one could certainly argue that at higher wages, American would do those jobs. A 2004 study by Harvard economist George Borjas concluded that from 1980 to 2000, immigration reduced the average annual earnings of native-born men by $1,700, or nearly 4 percent. For the poorest tenth of the workforce, the reduction was 7.4 percent.

And those higher wages wouldn't necessarily send prices out of control. The $10 billion immigrants add to the economy mostly through lower prices is just a drop in the bucket for a $13 trillion economy. And a 1996 study by a pair of Iowa State economists found that the removal of illegal workers from the seasonal agricultural workforce would increase supermarket produce prices by about 6 percent in the short run and 3 percent in the intermediate term.

During the winter-spring seasons, prices would rise more than 3 percent in the short term and less than 2 percent in the intermediate term. Imports would increase about 1 percent. Indeed, a reduction in the supply of low-wage workers would force many industries to turn to automation to maintain or increase productivity.