Egypt? The Next Taleban Awakening

[Kathianne]

Burning down a repository of ancient documents and artifacts that are the cornerstone of Western Civilization.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/dec/19/cairo-institute-burned-during-clashes


Cairo institute burned during clashes ...


The Institute of Egypt, a research centre set up by Napoleon Bonaparte during France's invasion in the late 18th century, caught fire during clashes between protesters and Egypt's military over the weekend. It was home to a treasure trove of writings, most notably the handwritten 24-volume Description de l'Egypte, which began during the 1798-1801 French occupation. It includes 20 years of observations by more than 150 French scholars and scientists, was one of the most comprehensive descriptions of Egypt's monuments, its ancient civilisation and contemporary life at the time.


It is probably now burned beyond repair.


Its home, the two-storey historic institute near Tahrir Square, is now in danger of collapsing after the roof caved in.


"The burning of such a rich building means a large part of Egyptian history has ended," the director of the institute, Mohammed al-Sharbouni, said at the weekend.


Al-Sharbouni said most of the contents were destroyed in the fire that raged for more than 12 hours on Saturday. Firefighters flooded the building with water, adding to the damage.


During the clashes a day earlier, parts of the parliament and a transportation authority office caught fire, but those blazes were put out quickly.


The violence erupted in Cairo on Friday, when military forces guarding the cabinet building, near the institute, cracked down on a three-week-old sit-in to demand the country's ruling generals hand power to a civilian authority. At least 14 people have been killed.


Zein Abdel-Hady, who runs the country's main library, is leading the effort to try and save what's left of the charred manuscripts. "This is equal to the burning of Galileo's books," Abdel-Hady said, referring to the Italian scientist whose work proposing that the earth revolved around the sun was believed to have been burned in protest in the 17th century...






For those that don't understand the connection with Taleban:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/science/archaeology/2001-03-22-afghan-buddhas.htm



<tbody>

<tbody>

<tbody>
03/22/2001 - Updated 03:54 PM ET

</tbody>




</tbody>



http://images.usatoday.com/_common/_images/clear.gif


Why the Taliban are destroying Buddhas


By W.L. Rathje, Discover Archaeology Magazine


In the Diamond Sutra, the historical Buddha, Sakyamuni (whose lifetime crossed the fifth and fourth centuries B.C.), says to a disciple: "Thousands of lifetimes ago when my body was cut into pieces by King Kalinga, I was not caught in the idea of a separate self or life span. If, at that time, I had been caught up in any such idea, I would have felt anger and ill-will against the king." Now, that's Buddhist tolerance!


In Afghanistan recently, supreme Taliban leader Mullah Mohammed Omar issued an edict against un-Islamic graven images, which means all idolatrous images of humans and animals. As a result, the Taliban are destroying all ancient sculptures. Explosives, tanks, and anti-aircraft weapons blew apart two colossal images of the Buddha in Bamiyan Province, 230 kilometers (150 miles) from the capital of Kabul...





<tbody>


</tbody>


</tbody>
...

[KarlMarx]

Yes, this really makes me mad and sad at the same time. Being a person who really loves the study of Ancient Egypt, I just can't bear to see what is going to turn up missing or destroyed beyond repair.

The current director of Egyptian Antiquities, Zahi Hawass, took a lot of pains to repatriate many artifacts that were in museums in other countries. One artifact that he wanted back in Egypt was the bust of the queen Nefertiti in the Berlin Museum. Anyway, the argument against repatriation often was that the safety of these antiquities could not be guaranteed if the government were to collapse and a radical regime took its place. At the time, I thought it was just typical BS on the part of the museums.... but now it seems to all be coming true....

If the Taliban were to take over Egypt then, considering what they did to the Buddhas of Bamiyan in Afghanistan, many monuments will be in danger of being destroyed by them... that would be a very sad day for all of humanity.

[Gaffer]

But muslims are all peace and love, abso said so. And the fundamental islamists will never take over egypt, abso said so.

Looks like egyptian artifacts in other countries will be staying where they are.

[gabosaurus]

What does something the Taliban did in Afghanistan in 2001 have to do with something that happened in Egypt 10 years later? Besides absolutely nothing.

In case you are unaware (and I know the majority of you are), the Taliban are NOT (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=JpJ&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&sa=X&ei=uhf0ToDiK7GasgLoxbmvAQ&ved=0CCUQvwUoAQ&q=al+qaeda&spell=1) al-Qaeda. They are not even remotely the same.
The Taliban only exist in Afghanistan. They are the remains of a U.S.-sponsored group that formed in 1991 to fight the Soviet-based government in the area. The Taliban actually drove groups sympathetic to al-Qaeda back into Pakistan because their religious views differed.
(http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=JpJ&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&sa=X&ei=uhf0ToDiK7GasgLoxbmvAQ&ved=0CCUQvwUoAQ&q=al+qaeda&spell=1) al-Qaeda is a terrorist group active in most Middle East countries. They only came back into Afghanistan after American forces were unable to hold areas in the north of the country.

I would recommend an excellent book on the subject, but I doubt most of you would be open minded enough to read it.

[Thunderknuckles]

What does something the Taliban did in Afghanistan in 2001 have to do with something that happened in Egypt 10 years later? Besides absolutely nothing.

In case you are unaware (and I know the majority of you are), the Taliban are NOT al-Qaeda. They are not even remotely the same.
The Taliban only exist in Afghanistan. They are the remains of a U.S.-sponsored group that formed in 1991 to fight the Soviet-based government in the area. The Taliban actually drove groups sympathetic to al-Qaeda back into Pakistan because their religious views differed.
al-Qaeda is a terrorist group active in most Middle East countries. They only came back into Afghanistan after American forces were unable to hold areas in the north of the country.

I would recommend an excellent book on the subject, but I doubt most of you would be open minded enough to read it.
I don't think anyone here is confused about what and who the Taliban are but what does your post have to do with the issue of the original post?

[abso]

I am sorry to say that, but that is really a very wrong topic which indicates little education about the current events and how did the building got burnt.

you are comparing an official destruction of culture at the hands of taliban to the burining of our history at the hands of some thugs and people rioting in the street.

the Islamists didn't do it, they never issued any statement calling for the burining of that building, they didn't even support or take part in that demonstration, so how could you compare both situation !!!

if you know nothing about the subject then just don't post about it please...

and i would recommend you to reread this statement in your post
"caught fire during clashes between protesters and Egypt's military over the weekend."


where exactly does ths islamists get mentioned in your source, or do you just feel the need to blame Islam and Islamic organizations for every thing like gaffer ?

[red states rule]

But muslims are all peace and love, abso said so. And the fundamental islamists will never take over egypt, abso said so.

Looks like egyptian artifacts in other countries will be staying where they are.

You left out how all this is Bush's fault

The liberal media, Obama, Hillary all have said so

(well they ahve on everything else - why not this one)

Abso will offer his usual Maytag washer spin sooner or later

[abso]

But muslims are all peace and love, abso said so. And the fundamental islamists will never take over egypt, abso said so.

Looks like egyptian artifacts in other countries will be staying where they are.

Irrational post as usual.

and by the way, I don't care if egyptian artifacts remain in other countries, we have lots and lots of them, i don't think we need any more, we already have about one third of all the world's known monuments, so leaving some in other countries will not affect us.

[red states rule]

Irrational post as usual.

I agree

ANYONE who says muslims are all peace and love ARE irrational

[abso]

I agree

ANYONE who says muslims are all peace and love ARE irrational

I applaud you for your childish post, of course that is not unexpected when it comes from you.

[red states rule]

I applaud you for your childish post, of course that is not unexpected when it comes from you.

The beat goes on and the body count rises

All in the name of Allah




Islam's Latest Contributions to Peace
"Mohammed is God's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless
to the unbelievers but merciful to one another" Quran 48:29


<TBODY>
2011.12.22 (Baghdad, Iraq) - Over eighty Iraqis are massacred by 'freedom fighters' in a series of bombings and rocket attacks across the city following the departure of U.S. troops.


2011.12.22 (Baqubah, Iraq) - Five family members are machine-gunned in their home by al-Qaeda gunmen.


2011.12.21 (Karachi, Pakistan) - One person is killed during a clash between Sunni and Shia.


2011.12.21 (Pattani, Thailand) - Two Thais are killed during a wave of Mujahid bombing and shootings.


2011.12.20 (Fallujah, Iraq) - Four contractors are kidnapped and murdered.


2011.12.19 (Ramin Daji, Nigeria) - Five villagers are hacked and shot to death by Muslim raiders. The victims include a mother and her baby.

</TBODY>


http://thereligionofpeace.com/

[Kathianne]

What does something the Taliban did in Afghanistan in 2001 have to do with something that happened in Egypt 10 years later? Besides absolutely nothing.

In case you are unaware (and I know the majority of you are), the Taliban are NOT al-Qaeda. They are not even remotely the same.
The Taliban only exist in Afghanistan. They are the remains of a U.S.-sponsored group that formed in 1991 to fight the Soviet-based government in the area. The Taliban actually drove groups sympathetic to al-Qaeda back into Pakistan because their religious views differed.
al-Qaeda is a terrorist group active in most Middle East countries. They only came back into Afghanistan after American forces were unable to hold areas in the north of the country.

I would recommend an excellent book on the subject, but I doubt most of you would be open minded enough to read it.

Gabby, you missed this by a mile or more.

[Kathianne]

I am sorry to say that, but that is really a very wrong topic which indicates little education about the current events and how did the building got burnt.

you are comparing an official destruction of culture at the hands of taliban to the burining of our history at the hands of some thugs and people rioting in the street.

the Islamists didn't do it, they never issued any statement calling for the burining of that building, they didn't even support or take part in that demonstration, so how could you compare both situation !!!

if you know nothing about the subject then just don't post about it please...

and i would recommend you to reread this statement in your post
"caught fire during clashes between protesters and Egypt's military over the weekend."


where exactly does ths islamists get mentioned in your source, or do you just feel the need to blame Islam and Islamic organizations for every thing like gaffer ?

The Taleban is not and was not the Afghan people either. There are none so blind as those that won't see.

[KarlMarx]

What does something the Taliban did in Afghanistan in 2001 have to do with something that happened in Egypt 10 years later? Besides absolutely nothing.

In case you are unaware (and I know the majority of you are), the Taliban are NOT al-Qaeda. They are not even remotely the same.
The Taliban only exist in Afghanistan. They are the remains of a U.S.-sponsored group that formed in 1991 to fight the Soviet-based government in the area. The Taliban actually drove groups sympathetic to al-Qaeda back into Pakistan because their religious views differed.
al-Qaeda is a terrorist group active in most Middle East countries. They only came back into Afghanistan after American forces were unable to hold areas in the north of the country.

I would recommend an excellent book on the subject, but I doubt most of you would be open minded enough to read it.

Gabby, I find it ironic that you defend the Taliban when they were known to beat women for showing their ankles in public, forced marriages of young girls to old men and, in short, treated the women of Afghanistan like cattle.

I said "IF" the Taliban take over Egypt, based on what they did in Afghanistan, then I fear for what will happen to Egypt's antiquities. And I'm afraid that it may happen. There are many Islamists who take the prohibition of the worship of idols to justify destruction of artifacts and antiquities. I doubt anyone would be tempted to worship the images of Amon-Ra, Isis, Osiris, or the images of the many pharaohs simply because they reside in museums or at various sites about the country.

[fj1200]

... the Taliban are NOT al-Qaeda.

:laugh: There are 13 references to Al-qaeda in this thread; 12 were either your post or quotes of your post. :laugh:

[Kathianne]

It appears many didn't understand my reference to the Taleban and what's going on in Egypt. Note from start, no mention of al Queda, :rolleyes:

Islamic fundamentalism and rise of religious in government was take one. Second would be the destruction of anything not Islam based, even if thousands of years older than that religion.

[gabosaurus]

Gabby, you missed this by a mile or more.

Kathianne, you missed my point. The name of your thread is "Egypt? The Next Taleban (sic) Awakening."
The Taliban do not exist in Egypt. The Taliban exist in only one country -- Afghanistan.
al-Qaeda is known to operate in Egypt and is behind some of the uprisings there.
There is where I am saying that many of you are confusing the Taliban with al-Qaeda. They are not the same group.

[ConHog]

What does something the Taliban did in Afghanistan in 2001 have to do with something that happened in Egypt 10 years later? Besides absolutely nothing.

In case you are unaware (and I know the majority of you are), the Taliban are NOT (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=JpJ&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&sa=X&ei=uhf0ToDiK7GasgLoxbmvAQ&ved=0CCUQvwUoAQ&q=al+qaeda&spell=1) al-Qaeda. They are not even remotely the same.
The Taliban only exist in Afghanistan. They are the remains of a U.S.-sponsored group that formed in 1991 to fight the Soviet-based government in the area. The Taliban actually drove groups sympathetic to al-Qaeda back into Pakistan because their religious views differed.
(http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=JpJ&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&sa=X&ei=uhf0ToDiK7GasgLoxbmvAQ&ved=0CCUQvwUoAQ&q=al+qaeda&spell=1) al-Qaeda is a terrorist group active in most Middle East countries. They only came back into Afghanistan after American forces were unable to hold areas in the north of the country.

I would recommend an excellent book on the subject, but I doubt most of you would be open minded enough to read it.

Wrong as usual you dumb shit.

The Taliban were/are actually quite active in Iraq. Also, they are in Pakistan, and of course they will join in with any group that is anti American.

[gabosaurus]

Wrong as usual you dumb shit.

The Taliban were/are actually quite active in Iraq. Also, they are in Pakistan, and of course they will join in with any group that is anti American.

Once again, you are confusing the Taliban with AQ. They are not the same group.

[ConHog]

Once again, you are confusing the Taliban with AQ. They are not the same group.


I'm not confusing anyone with anyone else. I fought them remember? The Taliban was trucking freedom fighters into Iraq as fast as they could find ways to get them there for several years until frankly they just stopped having enough fighters to spare because of our ramped up involvemnet in Afghanistan.

[Kathianne]

Kathianne, you missed my point. The name of your thread is "Egypt? The Next Taleban (sic) Awakening."
The Taliban do not exist in Egypt. The Taliban exist in only one country -- Afghanistan.
al-Qaeda is known to operate in Egypt and is behind some of the uprisings there.
There is where I am saying that many of you are confusing the Taliban with al-Qaeda. They are not the same group.

I'll grant that perhaps I should have used Taleban-like, in place of Taleban, which doesn't change one item that the op was referring to. You missed that point or are ignoring it.

[red states rule]

Once again, you are confusing the Taliban with AQ. They are not the same group.


http://deskofbrian.com/wp-content/uploads/LiberalsAlwaysWrongButPleasedWithThemselves.jpg

[abso]

It appears many didn't understand my reference to the Taleban and what's going on in Egypt. Note from start, no mention of al Queda, :rolleyes:

Islamic fundamentalism and rise of religious in government was take one. Second would be the destruction of anything not Islam based, even if thousands of years older than that religion.

you are the one who missed everything about the subject, because as i said before, that building was not burnt down de to religious beliefs like what taliban did, it was just burnt during clashes, that was not a systematic destruction of anything not based on Islam, you need to revise your opinion about that matter and you also need to stop seeing Islamic extremism in any thing wrong that happens in the world even if it has nothing at all to do with Islam or muslims.

[red states rule]

you are the one who missed everything about the subject, because as i said before, that building was not burnt down de to religious beliefs like what taliban did, it was just burnt during clashes, that was not a systematic destruction of anything not based on Islam, you need to revise your opinion about that matter and you also need to stop seeing Islamic extremism in any thing wrong that happens in the world even if it has nothing at all to do with Islam or muslims.

Here is your Christmas gift Abso. This is a Muslim alarm clock

http://plancksconstant.org/blog1/image3/sub6/gift6sm.jpg

[Creek]

It is a shame what's happening in Egypt...especially with the media coverage on what's taking place as we speak.There for lack of it.

I know some of the alternative news sources mention American involvement.Whether that's true,or not I don't have enough to really draw up my own conclusion...but with our track record in Egypt it don't really suprise me none.

I highly doubt Washington after all these years just threw in the towel when it comes to Egypt.

In many ways it feels like we've been buying peace...and in doing so propping up these dictators to do the job for us.

It's up to the population of Egypt to determine their own destiny.

If the people allow a minority political party that resorts to violence come to power...well that's their own choosing.

With all the bullshit now happening...it now feels like every dime,out of every dollar we make will go to protecting Israel.

Every problem we seem to face centers around Israel.

Our concern with Egypt..is Israel...Else nobody here would give a shit.

The most least of things so many Americans want to read..or get brain washed with right now is a influenced like Taliban Government in place in Egypt,or the threat of it..or supposed links to Al Qaeda.

Save the bullshit for the papers.

We have so many dam problems here right now...we don't care/can't afford boots on the ground...and a good majority of Americans just don't give a shit.

None of our middle east crap has been about protecting our freedoms...nor promoting anothers.

Sorry..I never bought the Operation Iraqi Freedom crap either..after the prior two attempts to decribe that war.

The Mission Accomplished era is over with the tax payers.

Our meddling..our bribes...Enough.

Let the nations in that part of the world work it out,or let us watch the one's who don't work it out.

I'm tired of reading of scare tactics...I'm tired of this war..propaganda crap.

A good majority of the cash being spent/given away over there needs to stay here.

END OF STORY!!

[Gaffer]

It is a shame what's happening in Egypt...especially with the media coverage on what's taking place as we speak.There for lack of it.

I know some of the alternative news sources mention American involvement.Whether that's true,or not I don't have enough to really draw up my own conclusion...but with our track record in Egypt it don't really suprise me none.

I highly doubt Washington after all these years just threw in the towel when it comes to Egypt.

In many ways it feels like we've been buying peace...and in doing so propping up these dictators to do the job for us.

It's up to the population of Egypt to determine their own destiny.

If the people allow a minority political party that resorts to violence come to power...well that's their own choosing.

With all the bullshit now happening...it now feels like every dime,out of every dollar we make will go to protecting Israel.

Every problem we seem to face centers around Israel.

Our concern with Egypt..is Israel...Else nobody here would give a shit.

The most least of things so many Americans want to read..or get brain washed with right now is a influenced like Taliban Government in place in Egypt,or the threat of it..or supposed links to Al Qaeda.

Save the bullshit for the papers.

We have so many dam problems here right now...we don't care/can't afford boots on the ground...and a good majority of Americans just don't give a shit.

None of our middle east crap has been about protecting our freedoms...nor promoting anothers.

Sorry..I never bought the Operation Iraqi Freedom crap either..after the prior two attempts to decribe that war.

The Mission Accomplished era is over with the tax payers.


Our meddling..our bribes...Enough.

Let the nations in that part of the world work it out,or let us watch the one's who don't work it out.

I'm tired of reading of scare tactics...I'm tired of this war..propaganda crap.

A good majority of the cash being spent/given away over there needs to stay here.

END OF STORY!!

Ramble much? My take on what you said was to throw Israel under the bus and hide under the covers. Kind of a paulish commentary.

[red states rule]

Abso, here is something you can give a Muslim girl for Christmas

http://plancksconstant.org/blog1/image3/sub6/gift5sm.jpg

[ConHog]

Ramble much? My take on what you said was to throw Israel under the bus and hide under the covers. Kind of a paulish commentary.

I kinda agree that we should let Israel take care of that part of the world, I mean we sure don't ask them to come police our southern border (although maybe we should. The Israeli Army builds some quality fences. :laugh2:)

[Kathianne]

http://pjmedia.com/barryrubin/2011/12/26/egypt-as-grim-islamists-march-toward-power-the-naive-dance-in-tahrir-square/


...Almost 80 percent of Egyptian Muslims in nine provinces voted for radical Islamist parties in the second round of Egypt’s election. (http://english.ahram.org.eg/NewsContent/33/64/30110/Elections-/Politics-/Results-of-second-round-of-Egypt-parliamentary-ele.aspx) Roughly 5 percent voted for a moderate Islamic party and about 15 percent voted for liberal parties.


That says it all. In the overall vote — that is, including the Christian voters — 70 percent supported radical Islamists, 47 percent (4 million) supported the Muslim Brotherhood (86 of 180 available seats so far; they might win more), and 32 percent were for the Salafists (3.2 million; the Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle-east/egypt-islamists-consolidate-gains-in-2nd-round-of-parliamentary-elections/2011/12/24/gIQA9JEMFP_story.html) seriously underestimated their votes).


The liberal (but not overtly anti-Islamist) Wafd won 1 million; the liberal Egyptian Bloc won almost 800,000; and the moderate Islamic Wasat Party got 370,000.


Incidentally, the vice-chairman of the Wafd said in an interview last July (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/jul/5/egypt-party-leader-holocaust-is-a-lie/)that the U.S. government carried out the September 11 attacks and Anne Frank’s diary was a fake. At least he doesn’t like Iran, though he thinks it is right about the Holocaust being phony. And he’s the liberal.


In preparation for the new order, the military junta is closing down shops selling alcohol. (http://bikyamasr.com/51404/egypt-to-restrict-duty-free-booze-close-shops-in-country/) It’s only the beginning. The much-touted Turkish model shows how Islamic law can be introduced gradually and more subtly: simply keep raising taxes on such beverages until no one can afford them. Raymond Stock describes the destruction of Egypt’s greatest library.

(http://www.fpri.org/enotes/2011/201112.stock.houseofdust.html)

Egyptians and foreign observers now have two choices: face reality or retreat into comfortable fantasies about moderate Islamists. The Christian population cannot afford to engage in fantasies so it is increasingly fleeing, as documented by Lucette Lagnado in a moving, detailed article (http://online.wsj.com/article_email/SB10001424052970203893404577098420950239672-lMyQjAxMTAxMDIwNDEyNDQyWj.html?mod=wsj_share_email ) on Coptic refugees in the United States.


In “Tahrir: The Seed and the Utopia,” (http://www.bigpharaoh.org/2011/12/24/tahrir-the-seed-and-the-utopia/) Egyptian blogger Big Pharoah, who spends much of his time in Canada, presents an idealistic but ultimately horrifying vision. For him, the Tahrir Square of the demonstrators is a paradise where he would like to live.

I sometimes believe there is something supernatural in Tahrir; some kind of energy that transforms whomever chooses to be part of it. They say we Egyptians are lazy. Tahrir is a beehive. During sit-ins, everyone has a thing to do; from the elderly woman who prepares sandwiches to the young men who guard the gates….


It’s believed Egyptians are intolerant. Not a month passes without a sectarian crisis somewhere. Not in Tahrir though. In the square, the Muslim Brotherhood doctor treats patients inside a church. Christians form a protective circle around praying Muslims. In fact, Tahrir might be the only place Christians prayed in outside their churches.


….I tend to look at Tahrir as a mental state. As a seed that was planted in this country. And just like any seed, it is destined to grow. This is the reason why they’re doing everything to choke it. Because if Tahrir came out of Tahrir, this country will change forever and threaten whatever interests they’re trying to protect.
Actually, Tahrir was the seed that brought the plant of revolutionary Islamist authoritarianism. (I’ll keep the word totalitarianism for later on, when it might be needed.) The liberals were a tiny minority who in their combination of hope and arrogance thought that they were something powerful in the country. Meanwhile, the Islamists used the liberals as cover to climb into power.

They were on their good behavior for strategic reasons.


Beautiful dreams often engender horrific realities: the Weimar Republic in Germany, the glorious dawn of the French Revolution, and the idealism of the Russian Revolution gave way to something else entirely...

[Gaffer]

^ But the radicals are only a minority.

[Kathianne]

^ But the radicals are only a minority.

Really. You cannot count on people being here, you've got to do this on your own.

[gabosaurus]

I used to believe I knew what was going on in Afghanistan until I read a book called "Taliban, the Unknown Enemy" by James Fergusson, a British writer who spent more than a decade studying the various factions.
Afghanistan is not as much a country as much as a collection of provinces, each of which contains numerous tribes and warring factions.
The Taliban are primarily Pashtun. They battle the North Alliance, which contains people loyal to Pakistani rebels. It's incredibly complicated. There are about two dozen different factions, each with their own set of beliefs and leaders.
The failure of the U.S. military to control Afghanistan is directly related to the fact that they know zero about what is going on. We feed billions of dollars into a country that subsides on corruption and bribes. It's like throwing meat into the cages of lions and tigers.

[ConHog]

I used to believe I knew what was going on in Afghanistan until I read a book called "Taliban, the Unknown Enemy" by James Fergusson, a British writer who spent more than a decade studying the various factions.
Afghanistan is not as much a country as much as a collection of provinces, each of which contains numerous tribes and warring factions.
The Taliban are primarily Pashtun. They battle the North Alliance, which contains people loyal to Pakistani rebels. It's incredibly complicated. There are about two dozen different factions, each with their own set of beliefs and leaders.
The failure of the U.S. military to control Afghanistan is directly related to the fact that they know zero about what is going on. We feed billions of dollars into a country that subsides on corruption and bribes. It's like throwing meat into the cages of lions and tigers.

Exactly so, they don't stand behind a country, they stand behind a tribe. So we're spinning our wheels if we think we're ever going to turn them into an Iraq even.

[gabosaurus]

Exactly so, they don't stand behind a country, they stand behind a tribe. So we're spinning our wheels if we think we're ever going to turn them into an Iraq even.

Obama is making the same mistake that Bush did. There is zero chance of "nation building" in Afghanistan. The various Afghan tribes have been feuding amongst each other hundreds of years. They will continue to do so whether we are there or not.

Con Hog, if you fought in Afghanistan, you would enjoy this book.

[ConHog]

Obama is making the same mistake that Bush did. There is zero chance of "nation building" in Afghanistan. The various Afghan tribes have been feuding amongst each other hundreds of years. They will continue to do so whether we are there or not.

Con Hog, if you fought in Afghanistan, you would enjoy this book.

I didn't fight in Afghanistan. Two tours in Iraq. No trip to the Stan. I would probably enjoy the book anyway. I just love to read anything of this type.

[gabosaurus]

Some of this stuff is astounding. To the point where I seriously can't believe how incredibly stupid and gullible both Bush and Obama were/are.

There are numerous coalition outposts on roads leading from Kabul to the north. They are vital to supply lines for the Taliban. The presence of these outposts lead the Coalition to believe they "control" these regions. Yet Taliban convoys proceed through the area each night without impediment.
Turns out that the Taliban have the ability to wipe out any of the outposts with their weaponry. The soldiers and civilians know this. They have a choice -- get paid handsomely to turn a blind eye or face possible death. What would you do?

[Kathianne]

Back to Egypt:

http://online.wsj.com/article_email/SB10001424052970203893404577098420950239672-lMyQjAxMTAxMDIwNDEyNDQyWj.html?mod=wsj_share_email




MIDDLE EAST NEWS
<small>DECEMBER 24, 2011</small>

Egypt's Embattled Christians Seek Room in America

By LUCETTE LAGNADO (http://online.wsj.com/search/term.html?KEYWORDS=LUCETTE+LAGNADO&bylinesearch=true)Kirolos Andraws had every reason to be excited about the January uprising in his native Egypt, figuring democracy would bring hope for young people like him.


Then one day in February, says Mr. Andraws, a gang of thugs beat him and told him, "you deserve to die." His offense, he says: refusing to convert to Islam.


In late March, Mr. Andraws, a 23-year- old engineer, used a tourist visa to board an Egyptair flight for New York City. He let a room in a friend's apartment, hired an immigration lawyer and applied for asylum. He has survived mainly on wages and tips from jobs as a cook, cashier and delivery man.


"I have no other option," says Mr. Andraws, who found refuge at a Queens church that's become a way station for Copts arriving in New York.


Mr. Andraws is one of thousands of Coptic Christians—followers of an ancient form of Christianity with its own language and rituals—who have come to the U.S. to escape rising persecution in Egypt...


The plight of the nation's roughly eight million Copts poses a quandary for the U.S. The pivotal Middle East ally receives $1.3 billion annually in military aid, and the administration has riled some critics who say it has failed to strongly rebuke the transitional rulers amid recent violence against women, Copts and other minorities.


The U.S. Commission on International Religious Freedom, a federal advisory agency, asked the State Department to place Egypt on its list of "countries of particular concern"—egregious violators of religious freedoms. The department declined, saying that its goal is to work with the Egyptian government to improve conditions for Christians...


Sherien Mehany El Gawly, 39, and her family arrived in Brooklyn in July. Her two daughters, aged 11 and 12, had "a very nice life in Egypt" thanks to her husband's textile business, she says. But after the revolution, their affluent station didn't seem to matter much.


One day, while shopping at an Egyptian grocery, a man singled her out and hurled curse words at her. "I am not veiled and he told me, 'We want to clean our country of you,' " recalls Mrs. El Gawly. Christian women are easily identifiable because they don't cover their hair.


The family's regular house of worship no longer felt safe. Her daughters were frightened when the church appeared on an online list of bombing targets.


The final blow came last summer, soon after a doctor examining her 12-year-old daughter for a fever asked if she had been "chitan"—the Arabic term for removal of the clitoris and other female sexual organs.


"He said, 'I can do it for them now—it is very easy and it is free,' " Mrs. El Gawly said. "I said, 'No, no, no, no.' Then, I ran out of the hospital."


Female genital mutilation was banned under the Mubarak regime and declared illegal. But as Islamists gained sway earlier this year, it was one of the Mubarak era reforms they derided and wanted to strike down. The practice is in danger of making a comeback, says an expert at the World Health Organization...