More Higher Ed Outlets Should Follow MIT [Archive] - Debate Policy

Kathianne

12-19-2011, 03:32 PM

Whether to pick up new skills for employment or begin to contemplate university studies, this seems a very good idea.

http://chronicle.com/article/MIT-Will-Offer-Certificates-to/130121/

December 19, 2011
MIT Will Offer Certificates to Outside Students Who Take Its Online Courses By Marc Parry
Millions of learners have enjoyed the free lecture videos and other course materials published online through the Massachusetts Institute of Technology's OpenCourseWare project. Now MIT plans to release a fresh batch of open online courses—and, for the first time, to offer certificates to outside students who complete them.
The credentials are part of a new, interactive e-learning venture, tentatively called MITx, that is expected to host "a virtual community of millions of learners around the world," the institute will announce on Monday.

Here's how it will work: MITx will give anyone free access to an online-course platform. Users will include students on the MIT campus, but also external learners like high-school seniors and engineering majors at other colleges. They'll watch videos, answer questions, practice exercises, visit online labs, and take quizzes and tests. They'll also connect with others working on the material.

The first course will begin around the spring of 2012. MIT has not yet announced its subject, but the goal is to build a portfolio of high-demand courses—the kind that draw more than 200 people to lecture halls on the campus, in Cambridge, Mass. MIT is investing "millions of dollars" in the project, said L. Rafael Reif, the provost, and the plan is to solicit more from donors and foundations.

Ten years ago, MIT galvanized the open-education movement by giving away free learning materials from 2,100 courses. But some universities are moving beyond publishing online syllabi and simple videos. They now provide virtual tutors and automated feedback through interactive projects like the Open Learning Initiative at Carnegie Mellon University and the free online computer-science courses at Stanford University. MIT's new venture is a step in that direction.

If Stanford's experience is any indication, the potential pool of participants could be vast. Back in November, roughly 94,000 students enrolled in Andrew Ng's open course on machine learning there.

MIT's project could also help answer a big question facing open education: How do you sustain projects whose content is free?

Although access to MITx courses will carry no cost, the institute plans to charge a "modest" fee for certificates that indicate a learner has mastered the content. It's unclear exactly how the assessment will work...

fj1200

12-19-2011, 03:46 PM

Competition in higher learning is hugely important to offer alternatives to the traditional model.

ConHog

12-19-2011, 08:55 PM

Whether to pick up new skills for employment or begin to contemplate university studies, this seems a very good idea.

http://chronicle.com/article/MIT-Will-Offer-Certificates-to/130121/

So Kath, let me get this straight. You want colleges to offer free online courses for anyone? You do realize that SOMEONE has to pay for the resources to offer these courses right? Who is that someone? Rich people when it comes to Stanford and MIT . I didn't realize you were an Occupier.

Kathianne

12-20-2011, 01:12 AM

So Kath, let me get this straight. You want colleges to offer free online courses for anyone? You do realize that SOMEONE has to pay for the resources to offer these courses right? Who is that someone? Rich people when it comes to Stanford and MIT . I didn't realize you were an Occupier.

Well Con, if you'd read the article you'd know they'd been doing the free courses for 10 years. Now they are offering certificates of completion for a small charge. To me it sounds like a pass/fail thing, without college credit. Once the lectures are downloaded and some software for assessing, it's a done deal.

ConHog

12-20-2011, 01:16 AM

Well Con, if you'd read the article you'd know they'd been doing the free courses for 10 years. Now they are offering certificates of completion for a small charge. To me it sounds like a pass/fail thing, without college credit. Once the lectures are downloaded and some software for assessing, it's a done deal.

Yes, but those servers and such aren't free. Nor is the utilities required to run them. In fact in the article it even states that at both Stanford, and MIT the programs are paid for by alumni grants. Now no doubt if public schools followed suit, government money would be used to fund them.

I'm all for online courses, but this seems to me to be a cry for free college,which of course was something the Occupiers wanted.

Kathianne

12-20-2011, 01:24 AM

Yes, but those servers and such aren't free. Nor is the utilities required to run them. In fact in the article it even states that at both Stanford, and MIT the programs are paid for by alumni grants. Now no doubt if public schools followed suit, government money would be used to fund them.

I'm all for online courses, but this seems to me to be a cry for free college,which of course was something the Occupiers wanted.

Without credit, no degree. However, they have all the taped lessons and the programming is simple enough. Certificates can be used to show evidence of improving skills, as well as a confidence boost or reality check for those contemplating university studies. Should it be 'mandated?' Hell, no. Do I think universities with the wherewithal should consider for both prestige and to increase their recruitment pool? Good business practice at a time universities are being hammered. It should come from them, not the government.

Let me guess where this may go. You agree, but...

ConHog

12-20-2011, 01:37 AM

Without credit, no degree. However, they have all the taped lessons and the programming is simple enough. Certificates can be used to show evidence of improving skills, as well as a confidence boost or reality check for those contemplating university studies. Should it be 'mandated?' Hell, no. Do I think universities with the wherewithal should consider for both prestige and to increase their recruitment pool? Good business practice at a time universities are being hammered. It should come from them, not the government.

Let me guess where this may go. You agree, but...

You're not listening. You say the programming is simple enough. I'm not a programmer, so I wouldn't know, but still someone has to do the programming and keep it updated. I doubt that someone (more likely several someones) is working for free. Who's going to pay for that? The servers that these simple programs sit on cost money, lots of money. I know our little high school just bought a $50K server . 10,000 students would need quite a few servers. Someone has to pay for them. That requires a building, an air conditioned building to store the servers.Someone has to pay for that. They require both power and bandwidth in order to function.LOTS of bandwidth and power. I doubt those are free.

Now, if Stanford and MIT want to use their private donations for this, then more power to them, but YOUR premise is that more colleges should offer free college courses. I don't agree with that.I'm not an Occupier.

Kathianne

12-20-2011, 01:40 AM

You're not listening. You say the programming is simple enough. I'm not a programmer, so I wouldn't know, but still someone has to do the programming and keep it updated. I doubt that someone (more likely several someones) is working for free. Who's going to pay for that? The servers that these simple programs sit on cost money, lots of money. I know our little high school just bought a $50K server . 10,000 students would need quite a few servers. Someone has to pay for them. That requires a building, an air conditioned building to store the servers.Someone has to pay for that. They require both power and bandwidth in order to function.LOTS of bandwidth and power. I doubt those are free.

Now, if Stanford and MIT want to use their private donations for this, then more power to them, but YOUR premise is that more colleges should offer free college courses. I don't agree with that.I'm not an Occupier.

Really, you are unfamiliar with
Khan Academy (http://www.khanacademy.org/)
or the myriad of sites with quizzes available for whole classes costing all of $0 to schools? Really, I'd think your teachers would be using such, daily.

ConHog

12-20-2011, 01:42 AM

Really, you are unfamiliar with
Khan Academy (http://www.khanacademy.org/)
or the myriad of sites with quizzes available for whole classes costing all of $0 to schools? Really, I'd think your teachers would be using such, daily.

Online quizzes =/= online college.

Kathianne

12-20-2011, 01:51 AM

Online quizzes =/= online college.

No, sites that offer both their own subject area quizzes or allow teachers to create their own and share with others or not. There are specific sites available for math, spelling, tutoring, etc. They've been around for years. Ones that charge $25 a year allows for any number of classes the teacher teaches or the school can sign up the entire school for under $125 per year. With that the teacher can set up tests, grading, practice quizzes, games for reinforcement and get student information regarding times spent on the various options, scores, improvement percentages, etc. One of the best 'for profit' is TeacherWeb which provides online homework option, classroom webpages, webhosting, webquest support, quizzes, games, online grading....

ConHog

12-20-2011, 02:05 AM

No, sites that offer both their own subject area quizzes or allow teachers to create their own and share with others or not. There are specific sites available for math, spelling, tutoring, etc. They've been around for years. Ones that charge $25 a year allows for any number of classes the teacher teaches or the school can sign up the entire school for under $125 per year. With that the teacher can set up tests, grading, practice quizzes, games for reinforcement and get student information regarding times spent on the various options, scores, improvement percentages, etc. One of the best 'for profit' is TeacherWeb which provides online homework option, classroom webpages, webhosting, webquest support, quizzes, games, online grading....

and those are quite a bit different than courses designed to actually teach a subject.

Also, those aren't free. SOMEONE has to pay for them. You DO understand that don't you?

fj1200

12-20-2011, 06:02 AM

... I doubt those are free.

Now, if Stanford and MIT want to use their private donations for this, then more power to them, but YOUR premise is that more colleges should offer free college courses. I don't agree with that.I'm not an Occupier.

You're really comparing the extremely small (relative) marginal cost with an Occupier demand?

Nukeman

12-20-2011, 07:49 AM

and those are quite a bit different than courses designed to actually teach a subject.

Also, those aren't free. SOMEONE has to pay for them. You DO understand that don't you?I am sure you are aware that after the intitial cost that the maintenance is very minimal... It isn't like they are reinventing the wheel for EVERY class/lecture offered online or as a webinar. Most after recouping thie cost are offered for free. Do you really NOT understand that.

ConHog

12-20-2011, 10:35 AM

I am sure you are aware that after the intitial cost that the maintenance is very minimal... It isn't like they are reinventing the wheel for EVERY class/lecture offered online or as a webinar. Most after recouping thie cost are offered for free. Do you really NOT understand that.

Well, sure after buying that $50K server, the rest is free. It certainly doesn't cost anything to maintain and operate said server.

ConHog

12-20-2011, 10:36 AM

You're really comparing the extremely small (relative) marginal cost with an Occupier demand?

I want something for nothing = I want something for nothing, regardless of the cost of that something.

Nukeman

12-20-2011, 11:25 AM

Well, sure after buying that $50K server, the rest is free. It certainly doesn't cost anything to maintain and operate said server.REALLY you're going to say that EVERY web based class has its OWN 50k server?!!? I would love to see the IT dept in your little school.... Must be amazing!!!

fj1200

12-20-2011, 11:33 AM

I want something for nothing = I want something for nothing, regardless of the cost of that something.

You could be right, I mean you've certainly been working on extending the limits of logic to fit your worldview.

ConHog

12-20-2011, 11:36 AM

You could be right, I mean you've certainly been working on extending the limits of logic to fit your worldview.

What does that even mean?

Tell me this FJ. Fundamenetally, what is the difference between a guy who wants a free lunch everyday, and a guy who wants a free car?

ConHog

12-20-2011, 11:37 AM

REALLY you're going to say that EVERY web based class has its OWN 50k server?!!? I would love to see the IT dept in your little school.... Must be amazing!!!

Link to where I said that?

Oh, and the IT department at our little school actually is pretty amazing for the size of our school.

Kathianne

12-20-2011, 11:42 AM

You're really comparing the extremely small (relative) marginal cost with an Occupier demand?

Thanks. If it were someone that didn't get that, I could understand his point. Nope, CH's point seems only to create the impression that I am with the OWS, since he has been label squishy on so many issues. He seems to assume that's a bad thing, rather than just what he is.

The schools already have all the equipment they need, today most lectures, notes, quizzes in college are available within the school communities, for MIT at least, also to the public for over 10 years. At some point most universities bought, installed, upgraded, and maintained the services. At this point it's just deciding to what extent they want to use them. In MIT's case it seems they have chosen to attempt a new use.

fj1200

12-20-2011, 11:42 AM

What does that even mean?

Tell me this FJ. Fundamenetally, what is the difference between a guy who wants a free lunch everyday, and a guy who wants a free car?

It means a lot to those who know. We're talking about a college opening up its classes to be viewed by the general public not a free ride for everyone.

ConHog

12-20-2011, 11:45 AM

It means a lot to those who know. We're talking about a college opening up its classes to be viewed by the general public not a free ride for everyone.

No, that's not at all what they are talking about. They are talking about colleges offering courses online for free. Not just allowing them to be viewed. if it were some sort of online class audit, that would be one thing, but they are giving credit for them.

Kathianne

12-20-2011, 11:49 AM

It means a lot to those who know. We're talking about a college opening up its classes to be viewed by the general public not a free ride for everyone.

Yep, also comparing the idea of certificates of completion with credited university courses. I didn't take classes pass/fail but assume there are strict rules on how many courses may be taken in that fashion. Quite sure you cannot take that option in major or minor fields of study-at least for credits to count towards major/minor.

Universities are under tremendous pressure to be relevant in order to survive. Reaching out and perhaps stirring some desire to dig deeper into subjects, create interests that might lead to 'connections' with the materials or professors, may help them in the future.

MIT is looking for perhaps even picking up a few bucks for the certificates, providing perhaps some use by those who follow a series and complete a minimal pass/fail, computer generated assessment of mastery. No extra time for more professors or demands on their time. Win/win for all.

Kathianne

12-20-2011, 11:50 AM

fj1200

12-20-2011, 11:51 AM

No, that's not at all what they are talking about. They are talking about colleges offering courses online for free. Not just allowing them to be viewed. if it were some sort of online class audit, that would be one thing, but they are giving credit for them.

Did you read the OP? They can view for free, a certificate will not be. I imagine that is a far different hurdle than college credit.

Although access to MITx courses will carry no cost, the institute plans to charge a "modest" fee for certificates that indicate a learner has mastered the content. It's unclear exactly how the assessment will work...

http://chronicle.com/article/MIT-Will-Offer-Certificates-to/130121/

ConHog

12-20-2011, 11:52 AM

No credit. Read again.

Sure looks to me like they are giving credit towards a certificate saying you passed a course.

ConHog

12-20-2011, 11:54 AM

Did you read the OP? They can view for free, a certificate will not be. I imagine that is a far different hurdle than college credit.

no, thats not what the article says at all. IT says they may PARTICIPATE for free. Then at the end if they've passed there will be a nominal fee for a certificate stating such. Do you really suggest that fee will cover the entire cost of the course for each student?

fj1200

12-20-2011, 11:57 AM

no, thats not what the article says at all. IT says they may PARTICIPATE for free. Then at the end if they've passed there will be a nominal fee for a certificate stating such. Do you really suggest that fee will cover the entire cost of the course for each student?

Link? Or you're hung up on PARTICIPATION? And that doesn't counter what I said; Certificates will be for a fee. I don't know their cost structure and I don't care, it's their decision to make.

ConHog

12-20-2011, 11:59 AM

Link? Or you're hung up on PARTICIPATION? And that doesn't counter what I said; Certificates will be for a fee. I don't know their cost structure and I don't care, it's their decision to make.

Of course it is, and as I said in my first few posts in the thread good for them, I was merely commenting on Kath's statement that more colleges should do this and stating that if public colleges did it, us taxpayers would be footing the bill.

I absolutely agree that Stanford and MIT can do whatever they want with their money.

Kathianne

12-20-2011, 12:01 PM

Sure looks to me like they are giving credit towards a certificate saying you passed a course.

You have said you earned multiple degrees, how many of your major/minor course credits, TAKEN AS PASS/FAIL counted towards your degree credits? Now did you earn 'credits' for the courses? Why yes you did. However, that was for completing the course of study, taking all the tests and quizzes provided by and graded by the professor or those acting in his place. That would include things like essays and 'showing work' where applicable.That gave you the option of going to the professor or TA's or participating in study groups, using the universities resources and subscriptions through their libraries.

This offers nothing like that. All computer generated, including the ability to print a certificate of completion. No professors or assistance, no discussions or ability to delve deeper or get clarification other than by own efforts. Very different than 'online course.'

fj1200

12-20-2011, 12:04 PM

Of course it is, and as I said in my first few posts in the thread good for them, I was merely commenting on Kath's statement that more colleges should do this and stating that if public colleges did it, us taxpayers would be footing the bill.

I absolutely agree that Stanford and MIT can do whatever they want with their money.

:rolleyes: And I'd have no problem if state schools did this as well. :eek: Maybe some of the money-down-the-drain the government spends on higher education would trickle down to more people.

Kathianne

12-20-2011, 12:04 PM

Of course it is, and as I said in my first few posts in the thread good for them, I was merely commenting on Kath's statement that more colleges should do this and stating that if public colleges did it, us taxpayers would be footing the bill.

I absolutely agree that Stanford and MIT can do whatever they want with their money.

Thanks for making it clear that you've repeatedly used this thread to try and imply things I didn't say or mean. As stated repeatedly I never implied or was advocating for mandated use. You are letting your feelings towards me color your participation. Really, get over it.

Kathianne

12-20-2011, 12:06 PM

:rolleyes: And I'd have no problem if state schools did this as well. :eek: Maybe some of the money-down-the-drain the government spends on higher education would trickle down to more people.

Indeed. Most, if not all state universities have the same facilities already in their possession, how they use them is up to them. Anything that creates interest development may spur some to go further, having already encountered a professor or a few may create a 'brand loyalty,' that can only be in their favor.

ConHog

12-20-2011, 12:10 PM

You have said you earned multiple degrees, how many of your major/minor course credits, TAKEN AS PASS/FAIL counted towards your degree credits? Now did you earn 'credits' for the courses? Why yes you did. However, that was for completing the course of study, taking all the tests and quizzes provided by and graded by the professor or those acting in his place. That would include things like essays and 'showing work' where applicable.That gave you the option of going to the professor or TA's or participating in study groups, using the universities resources and subscriptions through their libraries.

This offers nothing like that. All computer generated, including the ability to print a certificate of completion. No professors or assistance, no discussions or ability to delve deeper or get clarification other than by own efforts. Very different than 'online course.'

I didn't take any courses on a pass/fail basis. I took them on an I'm going to get an A in this class basis.

ConHog

12-20-2011, 12:12 PM

Thanks for making it clear that you've repeatedly used this thread to try and imply things I didn't say or mean. As stated repeatedly I never implied or was advocating for mandated use. You are letting your feelings towards me color your participation. Really, get over it.

That's fucking rich, coming from you. And no, my opinion has nothing to do with who the OP is.

Kathianne

12-20-2011, 12:38 PM

That's fucking rich, coming from you. And no, my opinion has nothing to do with who the OP is.

Not going to respond with your curses, just noting that the reason you get the responses you do is your continual baiting, dismissal of opinions of others, and general attempts to call yourself an authority when you fail to demonstrate any of the qualities or knowledge assumed in persons of authority. Let's see, the word that applies, oh yeah, you're an internet blowhard and tough guy.

BTW, Merry Christmas!

Nukeman

12-20-2011, 12:46 PM

Well, sure after buying that $50K server, the rest is free. It certainly doesn't cost anything to maintain and operate said server.

Link to where I said that?

.
Gee maybe right there in the first one I quoted. YOU'RE insinuating that for every class there needs to be a $50K server available. YOu are the one that said not that I.

Those servers are used for a lot more than an occasional webinar or lecture that someone can recieve a participation form. Most in the work force do not need a full semester class to keep current. Like I said earlier we aren't attempting to reinvent the wheel. Its called keeping current, continuing ed, or whatever you want to call it. If colleges want to attract people this is one way to do it, by offering free and major reduced prices for these types of information, you seem to be stuck on "its a whole class so we have to charge for the whole thing". NO ONE has stated it is for a complete class.. YOU are the only one stating that.......

Kathianne

12-20-2011, 01:42 PM

A simple explanation regarding credits and certificates, they are NOT the same thing:

http://www.top-colleges.com/blog/2007/04/11/certificate-program-vs-associates-degree/

ConHog

12-20-2011, 01:45 PM

A simple explanation regarding credits and certificates, they are NOT the same thing:

http://www.top-colleges.com/blog/2007/04/11/certificate-program-vs-associates-degree/

Of course they are not the same thing. But certificates do imply that one has finished an accredited course and is being certified as proficient in said subject. That's free (or at least vastly reduced priced) college you're wanting, no matter how you spin it.

Kathianne

12-20-2011, 01:48 PM

Of course they are not the same thing. But certificates do imply that one has finished an accredited course and is being certified as proficient in said subject. That's free (or at least vastly reduced priced) college you're wanting, no matter how you spin it.

Really? The course may be available to all, but the certificate? Not at all. The article makes it clear that MIT is considering what the value would be, though their costs don't change. Thus a pure money maker for the university.

It also carries only the assurance that a minimum of proficiency has been reached, not mastery of a field. You do get that, right?

ConHog

12-20-2011, 01:58 PM

Really? The course may be available to all, but the certificate? Not at all. The article makes it clear that MIT is considering what the value would be, though their costs don't change. Thus a pure money maker for the university.

It also carries only the assurance that a minimum of proficiency has been reached, not mastery of a field. You do get that, right?

Oh yes, I'm sure there will be HORDES of people signing up for free MIT courses with no expectations of getting a certificate.

Do you know how many people I know who have a degree in a field that they haven't mastered? We call them teachers. :laugh2::dance:

Kathianne

12-20-2011, 02:03 PM

Oh yes, I'm sure there will be HORDES of people signing up for free MIT courses with no expectations of getting a certificate.

Do you know how many people I know who have a degree in a field that they haven't mastered? We call them teachers. :laugh2::dance:

We all know you amuse yourself, if only...

On the other hand, my guess is MIT has kept track of how many have been accessing their free videos over the past 10 years, and how many complete a series. Just guessing. :rolleyes: Thus, there may well have reasons to consider.

Abbey Marie

12-20-2011, 03:54 PM

Nukeman

12-20-2011, 03:58 PM

The problem may solve itself- I'm thinking that the number of people who can even understand a typical MIT course is kinda smallish.

If this becomes very popular, MIT could be biting itself in the ***, since people may choose the on line, much cheaper or free, route, than paying them $50k (I am guessing here) per annum. But I would hope that the people at MIT are smart enough to plan for that contingency.You're NOT getting college credits or a degree this way. You are ONLY getting a participation certificate of completion which means NOTHING in a academic setting but could enhance your standing at work due to your resolve to better yourself.. That is what these are geared for not to get a full education for free or reduced amount as some would have you believe....

Abbey Marie

12-20-2011, 04:04 PM

You're NOT getting college credits or a degree this way. You are ONLY getting a participation certificate of completions which means NOTHING in a academic stetting but could enhance your standing at work due to our resolve to better your self.. That is what these are geared for not to get a full education for free or reduced amount as some would have you believe....

Yeah, I get that, but whatever reduced functionality this certification has, there will still be people choosing this who might have chosen the standard degree route instead. I don't really expect MIT to be too worried, though.