Tennessee family home burns while firefighters watch

[jimnyc]

This should make for an interesting discussion. If you don't pay a yearly fee of $75, the Fire Department can't find the funds to operate properly, and subsequently your house burns down. $75 is a small fee to potentially save your home. And if not a fee, they would likely just raise taxes to pay the department. Either way you pay. It appears to be a fee and not a donation. I guess they should have paid! And this isn't the first time this has happened.


A Tennessee couple helplessly watched their home burn to the ground, along with all of their possessions, because they did not pay a $75 annual fee to the local fire department.

Vicky Bell told the NBC affiliate WPSD-TV that she called 911 when her mobile home in Obion County caught fire. Firefighters arrived on the scene but as the fire raged, they simply stood by and did nothing. "In an emergency, the first thing you think of, 'Call 9-1-1," homeowner Bell said. However, Bell and her husband were forced to walk into the burning home in an attempt to retrieve their own belongings. "You could look out my mom's trailer and see the trucks sitting at a distance," Bell said. "We just wished we could've gotten more out."

South Fulton Mayor David Crocker defended the fire department, saying that if firefighters responded to non-subscribers, no one would have an incentive to pay the fee. Residents in the city of South Fulton receive the service automatically, but it is not extended to those living in the greater county-wide area.

"There's no way to go to every fire and keep up the manpower, the equipment, and just the funding for the fire department," Crocker said.

The South Fulton policy produced precisely the same nightmare scenario last year, when homeowner Gene Cranick--who had likewise failed to pay the $75 annual fee for rural Obion County residents--saw his house engulfed by flames as South Fulton firefighter watched close by. That incident sparked a debate among conservative pundits over the limits of fee-for-service approaches to government.

For his part, Mayor Crocker stressed that the city's firefighters will help people in danger, even those who haven't paid the fee. "After the last situation, I would hope that everybody would be well aware of the rural fire fees, this time," Crocker said.

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/sideshow/tennessee-family-home-burns-while-firefighters-watch-191241763.html

[Kathianne]

Wow! This set something off in my brain. I found it, from a year ago:

http://www.wpsdlocal6.com/news/local/Firefighters-watch-as-home-burns-to-the-ground-104052668.html


Firefighters watch as home burns to the ground Reporter - Jason Hibbs
Photojournalist - Mark Owen Story Created: Sep 29, 2010 at 9:34 PM CST
Story Updated: Oct 14, 2010 at 1:09 PM CST




OBION COUNTY, Tenn. - Imagine your home catches fire but the local fire department won't respond, then watches it burn. That's exactly what happened to a local family tonight.


A local neighborhood is furious after firefighters watched as an Obion County, Tennessee, home burned to the ground.


The homeowner, Gene Cranick, said he offered to pay whatever it would take for firefighters to put out the flames, but was told it was too late. They wouldn't do anything to stop his house from burning.


Each year, Obion County residents must pay $75 if they want fire protection from the city of South Fulton. But the Cranicks did not pay.


The mayor said if homeowners don't pay, they're out of luck.




Well the reason I remembered is that it caused quite a firestorm, (pun intended), at the time. Seems everyone there should have been aware of the repercussions:

http://www.dailyfinance.com/2010/10/07/tennessee-fire-ignites-national-debate-on-public-services/

[ConHog]

This is a confusing issue. Rural fire departments would cease to exist if people didn't pay their yearly fees, and for rural homeowners there is no other fire department if needed. BUT if fire departments had to respond even to home that didn't pay their fees. Who would pay the fee? Most wouldn't.

[fj1200]

This should make for an interesting discussion. If you don't pay a yearly fee of $75, the Fire Department can't find the funds to operate properly, and subsequently your house burns down. $75 is a small fee to potentially save your home. And if not a fee, they would likely just raise taxes to pay the department. Either way you pay. It appears to be a fee and not a donation. I guess they should have paid! And this isn't the first time this has happened.

I wonder how insurance companies and the lien holders look at this. If you haven't paid the fee do they still pay the insurance claim?

[ConHog]

I wonder how insurance companies and the lien holders look at this. If you haven't paid the fee do they still pay the insurance claim?

Our insurance company (shelter insurance) won't renew your policy each year if you don't present proof that you paid your dues if applicable.

[fj1200]

^That's exactly what I would expect but it just seems strange that FD services aren't wrapped into local taxes paid.

[Kathianne]

I wonder how insurance companies and the lien holders look at this. If you haven't paid the fee do they still pay the insurance claim?

Yep, same thing. Just had posted on another site where someone had their water heater, 80 gal, no less break. Obviously 'sudden water expulsion.' However, as it was in secondary room, hadn't noticed for weeks. In any case, he wasn't insured, so no matter.

Insurance companies could not work with those would 'only pay when needed.' I'm basically a low risk person regarding insurance. I've maintained my appliances and I am not high end in furnishings. In the past 15 years though:

I had a flood claim, thanks State Farm for the $10k, while less than actual worth of stuff, it wouldn't have been in basement if I could use.

Thanks, Allstate when the dog from hell I got from a friend, chewed my mom's hearing aid while visiting. $1500.

Thanks to the Allstate claims person that advised me that my hearing aid, chewed by a different dog than the one that ate my mom's, wasn't covered. Julia Roberts, I should hate you. However, this person also told me to check for supplementary coverage on point of contact. I did and 4/5 was covered.

Then there was the upstairs toilet the day after Thanksgiving a couple years ago. Nearly $25k later, thanks Allstate. Walls, paint, floors, carpeting all back where they were.

[ConHog]

^That's exactly what I would expect but it just seems strange that FD services aren't wrapped into local taxes paid.

Well the problem with that where I live is we don't pay any city taxes. We do pay county taxes, but the volunteer fire department is ran by our local city. We're simply too far out for the "big city" fire department to be of any use to us in the case of a fire.

Our local fee isn't even a $100 and our bank actually figures it into our mortgage along with property taxes, and insurance . They of course have a vested interest in making sure "our" house doesn't burn down.

[ConHog]

Yep, same thing. Just had posted on another site where someone had their water heater, 80 gal, no less break. Obviously 'sudden water expulsion.' However, as it was in secondary room, hadn't noticed for weeks. In any case, he wasn't insured, so no matter.

Insurance companies could not work with those would 'only pay when needed.' I'm basically a low risk person regarding insurance. I've maintained my appliances and I am not high end in furnishings. In the past 15 years though:

I had a flood claim, thanks State Farm for the $10k, while less than actual worth of stuff, it wouldn't have been in basement if I could use.

Thanks, Allstate when the dog from hell I got from a friend, chewed my mom's hearing aid while visiting. $1500.

Thanks to the Allstate claims person that advised me that my hearing aid, chewed by a different dog than the one that ate my mom's, wasn't covered. Julia Roberts, I should hate you. However, this person also told me to check for supplementary coverage on point of contact. I did and 4/5 was covered.

Then there was the upstairs toilet the day after Thanksgiving a couple years ago. Nearly $25k later, thanks Allstate. Walls, paint, floors, carpeting all back where they were.

Sounds like you've been as fortunate as me when you've needed insurance. I've had 3 claims . The last being when high winds blew the vinyl siding off half my home and hail destroyed half my roof. Shelter Insurance paid for an entire new roof, plus siding and even paid me for my time involved in cleaning up the aftermath of the storm.

Of course it helps when you went to high school with your agent.

[jimnyc]

This is a confusing issue. Rural fire departments would cease to exist if people didn't pay their yearly fees, and for rural homeowners there is no other fire department if needed. BUT if fire departments had to respond even to home that didn't pay their fees. Who would pay the fee? Most wouldn't.

People should just look at it as a tax anyway, or insurance, rather than not pitching in and hoping they never have a fire. They need operating costs covered, whether by taxes or fees.


I wonder how insurance companies and the lien holders look at this. If you haven't paid the fee do they still pay the insurance claim?

Good question! But something tells me that if they didn't want to pay a measly $75 to potentially save/protect their home and belongings, they probably aren't too concerned about a lien holder!

You would think this would be clear cut in this area, and I'll have to learn more before having an opinion written in stone. But if these people KNEW they weren't having taxes deducted for the FD and then didn't pay fees, then they are SOL. No different, IMO, than someone wishing they paid for insurance after an accident. Pay ahead for coverage, or eat the loss when you have a problem.

[Little-Acorn]

^That's exactly what I would expect but it just seems strange that FD services aren't wrapped into local taxes paid.

America is (or was) based on the idea that each person is responsible for his own well-being, and is free to take care of it any way he wants.

As seen in the above example, some people fail (or refuse) to take on that responsibility... and sometimes suffer a major loss as a result.

Is that a good reason to take away EVERYONE'S freedom to run his own life whatever way he wants?

That said, the people themselves can vote to have the city (or county or etc.) charge them these fees, force each of them to pay them, etc. Then the fire dept. would respond to every fire and work to put it out.

If I have this right, the city of South Fulton, TN, does have their city government charging each city resident this $75 and the Fire Dept does put out every fire inside the city limits... but this particular fire was in Obion County TN outside the city limits of South Fulton. Do I have this right? And the Obion County residents who are outside the city limits, have the OPTION of paying $75/yr, and if they do then the South Fulton Fire Dept will work to put out the fire?

Looks to me like that area in Tennessee decided NOT to have government force them. And I would guess, some Obion County residents outside the city voluntarily paid the $75, but others didn't. This fire happened to one of the latter.

Now the residents in and out of South Fulton have seen what can happen as a result. Looks like they saw it happen last year, too. The counthy residents outside the city can vote to have their County government force them to pay. And if they still decide not to, well, doesn't that answer the question of "What can we do about this?" ?

If the Obion County residents (outside the city of South Fulton) choose to have a "voluntary option" of paying the SF Fire Dept $75/year, and some of them don't pay, and one of those non-paying houses catches fire... is this a reason to force everyone to pay, garnish the wages of those who refuse, tow somebody's car and sell it to get the money for the $75/yr... and then have the Fire Dept put out all fires in the county?

[ConHog]

America is (or was) based on the idea that each person is responsible for his own well-being, and is free to take care of it any way he wants.

As seen in the above example, some people fail (or refuse) to take on that responsibility... and sometimes suffer a major loss as a result.

Is that a good reason to take away EVERYONE'S freedom to run his own life whatever way he wants?

That said, the people themselves can vote to have the city (or county or etc.) charge them these fees, force each of them to pay them, etc. Then the fire dept. would respond to every fire and work to put it out.

If I have this right, the city of South Fulton, TN, does have their city government charging each city resident this $75 and the Fire Dept does put out every fire inside the city limits... but this particular fire was in Obion County TN outside the city limits of South Fulton. Do I have this right? And the Obion County residents who are outside the city limits, have the OPTION of paying $75/yr, and if they do then the South Fulton Fire Dept will work to put out the fire?

Looks to me like that area in Tennessee decided NOT to have government force them. And I would guess, some Obion County residents outside the city voluntarily paid the $75, but others didn't. This fire happened to one of the latter.

Now the residents in and out of South Fulton have seen what can happen as a result. Looks like they saw it happen last year, too. The counthy residents outside the city can vote to have their County government force them to pay. And if they still decide not to, well, doesn't that answer the question of "What can we do about this?" ?

If the Obion County residents (outside the city of South Fulton) choose to have a "voluntary option" of paying the SF Fire Dept $75/year, and some of them don't pay, and one of those non-paying houses catches fire... is this a reason to force everyone to pay, garnish the wages of those who refuse, tow somebody's car and sell it to get the money for the $75/yr... and then have the Fire Dept put out all fires in the county?

Of course that doesn't address the larger issue. Let's say I just said fuck It I'm not paying the fee, let my house burn if it catches on fire, and it DOES catch on fire. Now I live on 300 acres and actually have TWO houses. Lots of wooded areas. Let's say it all burns unchecked and then we have a forest fire burning that might destroy 20 houses before the fire department gets a call that okay NOW there is a house on fire that someone paid their fee. Look at THAT mess.

perhaps fire department fees should be like liability auto insurance. MUST have.

[Abbey Marie]

What if there was a person still in the burning house? Do the firefighters just let them die?

[ConHog]

What if there was a person still in the burning house? Do the firefighters just let them die?


I suppose that if they don't even respond they wouldn't know if a person was in it or not. :laugh:

[Kathianne]

Of course that doesn't address the larger issue. Let's say I just said fuck It I'm not paying the fee, let my house burn if it catches on fire, and it DOES catch on fire. Now I live on 300 acres and actually have TWO houses. Lots of wooded areas. Let's say it all burns unchecked and then we have a forest fire burning that might destroy 20 houses before the fire department gets a call that okay NOW there is a house on fire that someone paid their fee. Look at THAT mess.

perhaps fire department fees should be like liability auto insurance. MUST have.

So is your contention that the fire folks should respond to your fire, fight it, because of the greater danger to the community? Thus you have 'free' coverage?

[ConHog]

So is your contention that the fire folks should respond to your fire, fight it, because of the greater danger to the community? Thus you have 'free' coverage?

Not at all, my contention is that perhaps opting out shouldn't be an option at all. I mean it's $75 a year. I thought I was clear abut that. Sorry if I wasn't.

[Kathianne]

Not at all, my contention is that perhaps opting out shouldn't be an option at all. I mean it's $75 a year. I thought I was clear abut that. Sorry if I wasn't.

So voluntary shouldn't be? Ok. What about forced insurance on jewelry?

[ConHog]

So voluntary shouldn't be? Ok. What about forced insurance on jewelry?

Really Kath? How could your jewelry being stolen possibly affect your neighbors? Never mind , just you trying to bait me.

[fj1200]

Well the problem with that where I live is we don't pay any city taxes. We do pay county taxes, but the volunteer fire department is ran by our local city. We're simply too far out for the "big city" fire department to be of any use to us in the case of a fire.

That system is just ridiculous.


Good question! But something tells me that if they didn't want to pay a measly $75 to potentially save/protect their home and belongings, they probably aren't too concerned about a lien holder!

But the lien holder is worried about "their" house. :laugh:

[ConHog]

That system is just ridiculous.



But the lien holder is worried about "their" house. :laugh:

Well that's one of the drawbacks of living in a city of 100 people that is about 20 miles outside of the nearest decent sized city but still within that city's county.

You take the good with the bad.

[fj1200]

County FD, problem solved.

[ConHog]

County FD, problem solved.

How is a county fire department in a county of about 12K people spread over roughly 20K acres going to have enough sub stations to be effective? The property taxes would be through the roof to support that.

The system we have works fine. Costs $75 a year to make sure we have 911 service including fire services.

[fj1200]

Change the name on the fire truck from Podunk City FD to Podunk County FD and charge everybody $75; a little spray paint and problem solved. :poke:

[ConHog]

Change the name on the fire truck from Podunk City FD to Podunk County FD and charge everybody $75; a little spray paint and problem solved. :poke:

In other words just do as I said earlier and make the $75 fee compulsory and who really cares what the fire truck says on the side of it? I agree 100%.

[Little-Acorn]

County FD, problem solved.

Pay your $75/year. Problem solved. Without government taking freedom away from anyone.

[fj1200]

The freedom to be stupid? It's just the flippin' fire department not the encroachment of communism.

[ConHog]

Pay your $75/year. Problem solved. Without government taking freedom away from anyone.

Freedom to let your neighbors house burn down with yours because you were too stupid to pay the $75?

I got a better idea.

Pay the $75 per year and hope you never need it OR pay the entire cost of saving your house should you ever need it. Oh and don't give me no BS about how you wouldn't be crying if the fire department you refused to pay $75 towards refused to come save your house if it caught on fire b/c I absolutely do not believe that.

[Abbey Marie]

I suppose that if they don't even respond they wouldn't know if a person was in it or not. :laugh:

But it sounds like they go there and stand around.

[ConHog]

But it sounds like they go there and stand around.


Well that's just stupid, Unless they are going to be prepared to act if the fire spreads to property of someone who paid their fees.

[fj1200]

Well that's just stupid, Unless they are going to be prepared to act if the fire spreads to property of someone who paid their fees.

That was exactly the reason stated on the incident last year.

[Abbey Marie]

Well that's just stupid, Unless they are going to be prepared to act if the fire spreads to property of someone who paid their fees.

What a weird scenario. I think people need to cough up the $75. Buy a few less packs of cigs for a month.

[ConHog]

That was exactly the reason stated on the incident last year.

Well in that case. I'm quite sure they would have rescued anyone who needed rescuing regardless of payment of fees. But if no life was lost, quite frankly I find it amusing that someone's house burned down with the fire department standing right there because that person for whatever reason chose to not pay. Bet they whined abut not getting any service too eh?

[avatar4321]

I don't see how that's the charitable thing to do.

[ConHog]

What a weird scenario. I think people need to cough up the $75. Buy few less packs of cigs for a month.

I know right, just proves that people can be stupid and not have any sense of priority.

[logroller]

I don't see how that's the charitable thing to do.

Perhaps you'd prefer to make a 75$ donation to the Obion County chapter of the Red Cross.
link here (http://www.redcross.org/portal/site/en/template.MAXIMIZE/ziplocator/?javax.portlet.tpst=2bd907ea326f7e9e934afa36c23f78 a0_ws_MX&javax.portlet.prp_2bd907ea326f7e9e934afa36c23f78a0 _viewID=email_view&javax.portlet.begCacheTok=com.vignette.cachetoken&javax.portlet.endCacheTok=com.vignette.cachetoken&maximize=false&vgnextoid=6d65e821cbdf9110VgnVCM1000002bf3870aRCRD&chapcode=42300&zip=38257)

I can't get past how stereotypical this is-- a mobile home catches on fire. Was it caused by Christmas tree lights left on, or maybe someone falling asleep with cigarette? I find myself waiting for a punch line.

[Kathianne]

That system is just ridiculous.



But the lien holder is worried about "their" house. :laugh:

The lienholder should be worried and can force homeowner's coverage on the home. However, the state and/or country should not be able to.

If one chooses not to cover their home, property, health, jewelry, :) that is their choice. Difference with auto is that it's something that kills others every day. Now we can argue whether the states should require it or not, but I can understand the reasoning.

[ConHog]

The lienholder should be worried and can force homeowner's coverage on the home. However, the state and/or country should not be able to.

If one chooses not to cover their home, property, health, jewelry, :) that is their choice. Difference with auto is that it's something that kills others every day. Now we can argue whether the states should require it or not, but I can understand the reasoning.

On the flip side of that, do you think the fire department should have to respond to houses that haven't opted to pay dues?

[Abbey Marie]

Perhaps you'd prefer to make a 75$ donation to the Obion County chapter of the Red Cross.
link here (http://www.redcross.org/portal/site/en/template.MAXIMIZE/ziplocator/?javax.portlet.tpst=2bd907ea326f7e9e934afa36c23f78 a0_ws_MX&javax.portlet.prp_2bd907ea326f7e9e934afa36c23f78a0 _viewID=email_view&javax.portlet.begCacheTok=com.vignette.cachetoken&javax.portlet.endCacheTok=com.vignette.cachetoken&maximize=false&vgnextoid=6d65e821cbdf9110VgnVCM1000002bf3870aRCRD&chapcode=42300&zip=38257)

I can't get past how stereotypical this is-- a mobile home catches on fire. Was it caused by Christmas tree lights left on, or maybe someone falling asleep with cigarette? I find myself waiting for a punch line.

Wonder if the paramedics would show up if Grandma got run over by a reindeer?

[revelarts]

I don't understand why the people couldn't pay them on the spot if the fee was really the deciding factor. are they expecting people to stop pre paying, if they let this family slide? And now the city is plus 1 homeess family how's that help the city's bottom line? Fire depts are among the best local services taxes can provide, it should just be taxed. Yes I siad it. taxes, in this case, are good it's local and for real public service. But letting a house burn down while standing there is just wrong, not everything is about money.

[Abbey Marie]

I don't understand why the people couldn't pay them on the spot if the fee was really the deciding factor. are they expecting people to stop pre paying, if they let this family slide? And now the city is plus 1 homeess family how's that help the city's bottom line? Fire depts are among the best local services taxes can provide, it should just be taxed. Yes I siad it. taxes, in this case, are good it's local and for real public service. But letting a house burn down while standing there is just wrong, not everything is about money.

In a word, Yes. People would think, I'll hedge by bets, and if I actually have a fire, I'll pay then. Meanwhile, the firehouse goes broke.

[ConHog]

I don't understand why the people couldn't pay them on the spot if the fee was really the deciding factor. are they expecting people to stop pre paying, if they let this family slide? And now the city is plus 1 homeess family how's that help the city's bottom line? Fire depts are among the best local services taxes can provide, it should just be taxed. Yes I siad it. taxes, in this case, are good it's local and for real public service. But letting a house burn down while standing there is just wrong, not everything is about money.



Becasuse duh if you only had to pay $75 a year IF your house caught on fire, who the hell would pay otherwise? And now how is a FD going to pay for itself if it only has 5 fires in a year and so only collects $425 for the year? Good God.


I say it's simple. Pay the $75 a year OR pay the entire cost of fighting a fire on your property. If it costs $10K to fight the fire, you're screwed. Too bad for being stupid.

[revelarts]

In a word, Yes. People would think, I'll hedge by bets, and if I actually have a fire, I'll pay then. Meanwhile, the firehouse goes broke.
that's why i think tax is better here.

[Abbey Marie]

that's why i think tax is better here.

i agree

[ConHog]

that's why i think tax is better here.

Ultimately, what is the difference between the city/county collecting it and calling it a tax and the fire department collecting it and calling it a fire fighting fee? I prefer the fire department collect it, because at least this way you know some stupid city councilman won't reallocate it to build a skateboard park or something similar. It goes directly towards its intended use.

[Nukeman]

I don't understand why the people couldn't pay them on the spot if the fee was really the deciding factor. are they expecting people to stop pre paying, if they let this family slide? And now the city is plus 1 homeess family how's that help the city's bottom line? Fire depts are among the best local services taxes can provide, it should just be taxed. Yes I siad it. taxes, in this case, are good it's local and for real public service. But letting a house burn down while standing there is just wrong, not everything is about money.You're assuming they only missed 1 year. If they missed 10 years would they have to pay the entire 750.00 plus interest and penalties before the "firefighting" takes place... I would say yes, otherwise no one would pay unless their house was on fire. doesn't work that way.....

[Kathianne]

On the flip side of that, do you think the fire department should have to respond to houses that haven't opted to pay dues?

Nope. They might take into consideration 'hardships,' but that would be a board decision in advance.

[ConHog]

Nope. They might take into consideration 'hardships,' but that would be a board decision in advance.

Then I am in agreement with you on this one. But obviously some in this thread think its okay not to pay the $75 a year and still expect service if you need it. Maybe pay the $75 then lol

[fj1200]

Ultimately, what is the difference between the city/county collecting it and calling it a tax and the fire department collecting it and calling it a fire fighting fee? I prefer the fire department collect it, because at least this way you know some stupid city councilman won't reallocate it to build a skateboard park or something similar. It goes directly towards its intended use.

Because the city collecting a separate fee for countywide services is ridiculous.

[ConHog]

Because the city collecting a separate fee for countywide services is ridiculous.

Our fire department is NOT countywide. That is the part you are missing. It serves our one little community only. It's NOT funded by the county in anyway.

[fj1200]

Our fire department is NOT countywide. That is the part you are missing. It serves our one little community only. It's NOT funded by the county in anyway.

I'm not missing anything, we even covered that back a page or two. It's a ridiculous system. The positive aspects of police and fire have been reduced to having people pay a fee due to a fluke of geography.

[ConHog]

I'm not missing anything, we even covered that back a page or two. It's a ridiculous system. The positive aspects of police and fire have been reduced to having people pay a fee due to a fluke of geography.

no b/c we in fact have a county sheriff's office which serves us. We simply do not have a county fire department.

It's six of one half a dozen of the other. Either you voluntarily pay for the volunteer fire department, or you mandatorily pay taxes for a county fire department. What is the difference as long as you have access to fire services?

[fj1200]

^You don't pay a fee to keep from getting murdered in your sleep? Funny that.

And what's the difference? The FD will watch your house burn down.

[ConHog]

^You don't pay a fee to keep from getting murdered in your sleep? Funny that.

And what's the difference? The FD will watch your house burn down.

Actually, you don't pay a fee to make sure your home doesn't catch on fire either. You do however pay a fee to have it put out if it does catch fire. Same as you pay a tax to make sure the police investigate your murder if it happens. Now kindly explain to me what the difference is in paying a fee (six) and paying a tax (half a dozen of the other.)

[ConHog]

^You don't pay a fee to keep from getting murdered in your sleep? Funny that.

And what's the difference? The FD will watch your house burn down.

So if you don't pay the fee the fire department will watch your house burn down while if you don't pay the tax the county will comje and take your house away from you. Either way it's a good idea to pay, right?

[fj1200]

^ and ^^ Maybe I haven't been clear; it's stupid that it's optional.

[ConHog]

^ and ^^ Maybe I haven't been clear; it's stupid that it's optional.

No, you haven't been clear ,nor apparently have I, because I agreed with that several pages ago.

[fj1200]

No, you haven't been clear ,nor apparently have I, because I agreed with that several pages ago.

Perhaps.


Because the city collecting a separate fee for countywide services is ridiculous.


It's a ridiculous system.


That system is just ridiculous.

Excellent that you agreed but why do you not see the difference between police and fire?

[logroller]

^ Quit spamming FJ :laugh:

[red states rule]

I guess the god ol' days of when you paid your income taxes, and property taxes, the Fire Dept would actually show up and put out a fire if one broke out on your property.

Leave it to the government to stand by and watch a family home burn to the ground over $75. The local government is now acting like the Mafia. They are sending a message to their citizens, Pay up or else

Looks like another protection racket to me

[logroller]

I guess the good ol' days of when you paid your income taxes, and property taxes, the Fire Dept would actually show up and put out a fire if one broke out on your property.

Leave it to the government to stand by and watch a family home burn to the ground over $75. The local government is now acting like the Mafia. They are sending a message to their citizens, Pay up or else

Looks like another protection racket to me

Perhaps you missed a rather pertinent piece of the story, but they didn't pay any taxes in support of the fire dept, it was a fee-based service.

[red states rule]

Perhaps you missed a rather pertinent piece of the story, but they didn't pay any taxes in support of the fire dept, it was a fee-based service.

I saw it, and over $75 the government lets the house burn to the ground. Like I said, the Mafia does the same to make sure 100% particpation in their protection services as well

I quess under Obamacre, the government will allow people to die on the street if they do not have government approved health ins - right?

I am sure that will be cool with some people. they did not pay so they do get the "fee based service"

[Kathianne]

I saw it, and over $75 the government lets the house burn to the ground. Like I said, the Mafia does the same to make sure 100% particpation in their protection services as well

I quess under Obamacre, the government will allow people to die on the street if they do not have government approved health ins - right?

I am sure that will be cool with some people. they did not pay so they do get the "fee based service"

It didn't work that way.

[logroller]

I saw it, and over $75 the government lets the house burn to the ground. Like I said, the Mafia does the same to make sure 100% particpation in their protection services as well

I quess under Obamacre, the government will allow people to die on the street if they do not have government approved health ins - right?

I am sure that will be cool with some people. they did not pay so they do get the "fee based service"

In racketeering, the mafia would have started the fire. The fire department didn't start the fire did they?

As to the Obamacare comparison, you make an excellent point-- that's the reasoning behind the tax penalty for NOT having health insurance. Because they wouldn't just let people die in the streets, nor do they now, they'd provide them services regardless; if they can't pay, others do. Do you like paying for other people's healthcare? Of course not, but you're doing it anyways-- because unless you want people dying in the streets, they need to be treated and released or quarantined until they recover or die. The question is rather providing for their health insurance (assuming they can't afford that either) would be any cheaper than paying for their healthcare services, which seems unlikely. I do think copays, ie a use fee, could lessen the propensity to visit the doctor over trivial issues, and therefore the reduce some costs borne by taxpayers. But this thread isn't about healthcare, so I'll stop.

[fj1200]

Looks like another protection racket to me

No, it's just a stupid system established by government that hasn't kept up with the times.

[Gunny]

This is a confusing issue. Rural fire departments would cease to exist if people didn't pay their yearly fees, and for rural homeowners there is no other fire department if needed. BUT if fire departments had to respond even to home that didn't pay their fees. Who would pay the fee? Most wouldn't.

I'm thinking the Dems and Darth Barrack need to shit or get off the pot. Either provide or quit claiming you are. And quit calling "tax by any other name" "fees". It's a fucking tax.

No one can see anything wrong with this is America and people stood and watched someone's home burn down?

[fj1200]

Give the FD salvage rights over the house so that when they show up they can have whatever they keep from burning. They could sell back the contents to the homeowners; fire put out, contents saved, idiot homeowners are taught a lesson... problem solved.

[CSM]

Give the FD salvage rights over the house so that when they show up they can have whatever they keep from burning. They could sell back the contents to the homeowners; fire put out, contents saved, idiot homeowners are taught a lesson... problem solved.

Better yet, put out the fire then present the bill to the homeowner. The bill should include everything from the cost of fire dousing materials (yep even the water), firefighter salaries and fuel costs for the equipment to and from the scene. Heck, throw in fair wear and tear depreciation of equipment while participating in the incident. You don't need to pay the fee monthly but you need to pay incurred costs. The homeowner can decide which is cheaper!

[fj1200]

^Very interesting. We do charge stupid people search and rescue fees who get lost in the wilderness right? :salute:

[Abbey Marie]

Give the FD salvage rights over the house so that when they show up they can have whatever they keep from burning. They could sell back the contents to the homeowners; fire put out, contents saved, idiot homeowners are taught a lesson... problem solved.

Yeah, that won't be a bureaucratic nightmare.

[Abbey Marie]

And we know that no one ever messes up their paperwork. Suppose I pay and they don't receive the check? Or put our address on the "unpaid" list by accident?

Levy an additional property tax, and put out all the fires. Anyone who doesn't pay their property taxes can be dealt with in the usual way. And to supplement as needed, do what our local fire company does- have craft fairs, Bingo, rent out the fire hall for parties, sell Christmas trees, etc.

[CSM]

And we know that no one ever messes up their paperwork. Suppose I pay and they don't receive the check? Or put our address on the "unpaid" list by accident?

Levy an additional property tax, and put out all the fires. Anyone who doesn't pay their property taxes can be dealt with in the usual way. And to supplement as needed, do what our local fire company does- have craft fairs, Bingo, rent out the fire hall for parties, sell Christmas trees, etc.

LOL, all that happens anyway, I'm sure, even under the current system. At least the fire gets put out; administrative details get worked out afterwards.

[ConHog]

Perhaps you missed a rather pertinent piece of the story, but they didn't pay any taxes in support of the fire dept, it was a fee-based service.

Not to mention, if their rural fire department is like ours, its all volunteer and in fact has nothing to do with the county government.

[Abbey Marie]

LOL, all that happens anyway, I'm sure, even under the current system. At least the fire gets put out; administrative details get worked out afterwards.

An important detail to the homeowner. :cool:

[Gunny]

^Very interesting. We do charge stupid people search and rescue fees who get lost in the wilderness right? :salute:

If your dumb ass tries to drive through a low-water crossing in San Antonio, you DO get charged for the rescue of you and your washed-out vehicle.

[fj1200]

Yeah, that won't be a bureaucratic nightmare.

:laugh: I'm all about practical solutions to an impractical problem. ;)

[ConHog]

LOL, all that happens anyway, I'm sure, even under the current system. At least the fire gets put out; administrative details get worked out afterwards.

FJ is stuck on big city mode or something. LOL @ lost paperwork. Our little fire department is ran by friends and family of everyone in the community, they KNOW exactly who has paid and who hasn't. They don't need to consult the paperwork before determining if someone has paid for fire protection. I'm sure most rural fire departments are similar.

[fj1200]

FJ is stuck on big city mode or something.

Yeah, universal protection for essential services is SOOOOOOO big city.

[ConHog]

Yeah, universal protection for essential services is SOOOOOOO big city.

who said that FJ? I in fact agreed with you that the fee should be mandatory. You just for whatever reason think it's stupid to have a non government fire department and I happen to think it works just fine.

[Abbey Marie]

FJ is stuck on big city mode or something. LOL @ lost paperwork. Our little fire department is ran by friends and family of everyone in the community, they KNOW exactly who has paid and who hasn't. They don't need to consult the paperwork before determining if someone has paid for fire protection. I'm sure most rural fire departments are similar.

And what about the larger areas? Are saying that only tiny rural FD's have financial issues?

[fj1200]

who said that FJ? I in fact agreed with you that the fee should be mandatory. You just for whatever reason think it's stupid to have a non government fire department and I happen to think it works just fine.

You brought up "big city mode." Where did I say the bold above?

[ConHog]

And what about the larger areas? Are saying that only tiny rural FD's have financial issues?

No, that wasn't what I was saying at all. Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems like the community fire department is just a rural thing. Do big cities have the to? I didn't think so.

[Abbey Marie]

No, that wasn't what I was saying at all. Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems like the community fire department is just a rural thing. Do big cities have the to? I didn't think so.

Sorry, I don't know.

:(

[Gunny]

Perhaps you missed a rather pertinent piece of the story, but they didn't pay any taxes in support of the fire dept, it was a fee-based service.

Isn't there something wrong with a fee-based fire protection service?

[logroller]

:laugh: I'm all about practical solutions to an impractical problem. ;)
Like fighting fire with free markets.


Isn't there something wrong with a fee-based fire protection service?

Couldn't tell you, never had it. At least two Obion county residents would say there is. Though, in general terms, paying for a service you wish to receive seems reasonable. It's more a question as to the viability of such services if one can opt-out of protection. I can't imagine why one would, but if you give someone the choice, you gotta let em reap the rewards and penalties.

[Kathianne]

No, that wasn't what I was saying at all. Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems like the community fire department is just a rural thing. Do big cities have the to? I didn't think so.

I think you are correct for the most part. Rural areas for the most part do not have the need for full time fire protection units. Some may have a 'volunteer force' where people pay per incident or make payments of some sort quarterly or yearly. Larger, more densely populated areas not only have the tax base, but the need for full-time departments of one sort or another, as structures are often very close together and the potential for spreading disasters is much greater.

This particular case though, seems too small even for a volunteer department, with equipment. Thus they are 'leasing the services' of another taxing body if I remember the details correctly.

[ConHog]

I think you are correct for the most part. Rural areas for the most part do not have the need for full time fire protection units. Some may have a 'volunteer force' where people pay per incident or make payments of some sort quarterly or yearly. Larger, more densely populated areas not only have the tax base, but the need for full-time departments of one sort or another, as structures are often very close together and the potential for spreading disasters is much greater.

This particular case though, seems too small even for a volunteer department, with equipment. Thus they are 'leasing the services' of another taxing body if I remember the details correctly.

I must have overlooked that because to me it looked like what I was thinking it is. A small township's volunteer fire department who refused to fight a fire at someone's residence who refused to pay the fee. I haven't lived in a big city in a long time, so I don't even know what a full time fire department looks like . Well that's not entirely true, our nearest city DOES have a full time fire department, but it's 2 ladder trucks a fan and 10 guys. Our local paper actually lists their calls once a week and in relation to this thread and I looked at last week's issue and the calls were thus

1 house fire
1 smoke alarm
1 animal stuck under house
1 car burning on side of the road

and that was it

Now, I honestly don't know how close to average last week was, but that's not a lot of work, and that is the "big city" fire department. Imagine how little our community fire department must do in comparison.... I just don't see how anyone could actually expect them to be able to operate without collecting fees from everyone in the community.

And like I said anyway, I don't even know where these people are finding home owner's insurance. our carrier won't touch you if you don't pay your dues.


Oh, as to equipment, our local fire department got very lucky there, they have 2 ladder trucks that are both less than 10 years old that the fire chief found at some auction for next to noting compared to their actual value.

[Kathianne]

I must have overlooked that because to me it looked like what I was thinking it is. A small township's volunteer fire department who refused to fight a fire at someone's residence who refused to pay the fee. I haven't lived in a big city in a long time, so I don't even know what a full time fire department looks like . Well that's not entirely true, our nearest city DOES have a full time fire department, but it's 2 ladder trucks a fan and 10 guys. Our local paper actually lists their calls once a week and in relation to this thread and I looked at last week's issue and the calls were thus

1 house fire
1 smoke alarm
1 animal stuck under house
1 car burning on side of the road

and that was it

Now, I honestly don't know how close to average last week was, but that's not a lot of work, and that is the "big city" fire department. Imagine how little our community fire department must do in comparison.... I just don't see how anyone could actually expect them to be able to operate without collecting fees from everyone in the community.

And like I said anyway, I don't even know where these people are finding home owner's insurance. our carrier won't touch you if you don't pay your dues.


Oh, as to equipment, our local fire department got very lucky there, they have 2 ladder trucks that are both less than 10 years old that the fire chief found at some auction for next to noting compared to their actual value.

Because towns like mine get rid of their equipment when warranty is over. It's cost effective for us and for those who buy from auctions.

http://www.city-data.com/city/Wheaton-Illinois.html



DuPage County (http://www.city-data.com/county/DuPage_County-IL.html) Population in July 2009: 54,568.

Estimated median house or condo value in 2009: $347,970 (it was $211,200 in 2000)

Read more: http://www.city-data.com/city/Wheaton-Illinois.html#ixzz1fzY5KsHj



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheaton,_Illinois


According to the United States Census Bureau (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Census_Bureau), the city has a total area of 11.3 square miles (29 km2). 11.2 square miles (29 km2) of it is land and 0.1 km² (0.04 sq mi or 0.35%) of it is water.

Note the population density, the home values, and the limited land? Yeah, we've 4 24 hour fire houses. Fully staffed at all shifts. Indeed, the insurance companies would require it.

[ConHog]

[QUOTE=Kathianne;509284]Because towns like mine get rid of their equipment when warranty is over. It's cost effective for us and for those who buy from auctions.

http://www.city-data.com/city/Wheaton-Illinois.html



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheaton,_Illinois



Note the population density, the home values, and the limited land? Yeah, we've 4 24 hour fire houses. Fully staffed at all shifts. Indeed, the insurance companies would require it.[/QUOTE

Our "big city" has an area of 223 sq. miles. a population of 4,854 and an average home sale price of $156K. I honestly dn't know the numbers for the town I live in, except for the population wish is <300.

[Kathianne]

[QUOTE=Kathianne;509284]Because towns like mine get rid of their equipment when warranty is over. It's cost effective for us and for those who buy from auctions.

http://www.city-data.com/city/Wheaton-Illinois.html



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheaton,_Illinois



Note the population density, the home values, and the limited land? Yeah, we've 4 24 hour fire houses. Fully staffed at all shifts. Indeed, the insurance companies would require it.[/QUOTE

Our "big city" has an area of 223 sq. miles. a population of 4,854 and an average home sale price of $156K. I honestly dn't know the numbers for the town I live in, except for the population wish is <300.

Thanks for making my point more clear.

[ConHog]

[QUOTE=ConHog;509288]

Thanks for making my point more clear.

Oh, I agree with your point here. I was merely illustrating the differences between where you live and where I live.

[red states rule]

In racketeering, the mafia would have started the fire. The fire department didn't start the fire did they?

As to the Obamacare comparison, you make an excellent point-- that's the reasoning behind the tax penalty for NOT having health insurance. Because they wouldn't just let people die in the streets, nor do they now, they'd provide them services regardless; if they can't pay, others do. Do you like paying for other people's healthcare? Of course not, but you're doing it anyways-- because unless you want people dying in the streets, they need to be treated and released or quarantined until they recover or die. The question is rather providing for their health insurance (assuming they can't afford that either) would be any cheaper than paying for their healthcare services, which seems unlikely. I do think copays, ie a use fee, could lessen the propensity to visit the doctor over trivial issues, and therefore the reduce some costs borne by taxpayers. But this thread isn't about healthcare, so I'll stop.

They did not start it but they stood by and enjoyed the show. The mob does the same thing as the "soldiers" stand on the street and tell people what a terrible thing to happen such good people as the flames consume the building

With Obamacare, I hope the administartion can show the USSC where in the US Constitution the feds can force people to buy a specific product and service

If it is indeed there, I guess next we will have Obama Dental, Obama Homeowner Ins, and Obama Disability Ins

Pay up or else

[logroller]

They did not start it but they stood by and enjoyed the show. The mob does the same thing as the "soldiers" stand on the street and tell people what a terrible thing to happen such good people as the flames consume the building



That's what the mob is known for?

[ConHog]

That's what the mob is known for?


They did not start it but they stood by and enjoyed the show. The mob does the same thing as the "soldiers" stand on the street and tell people what a terrible thing to happen such good people as the flames consume the building

With Obamacare, I hope the administartion can show the USSC where in the US Constitution the feds can force people to buy a specific product and service

If it is indeed there, I guess next we will have Obama Dental, Obama Homeowner Ins, and Obama Disability Ins

Pay up or else

What does Obamacare have to do with this thread?

[logroller]

What does Obamacare have to do with this thread?

Nazis.:laugh2:

[red states rule]

That's what the mob is known for?

Yep

The message has to be spread around so everyone knows to pay or else the same "accident" will happen to them

If the people don't pay - the fire department will stand and watch the house burn to the ground