NT Teacher Tells Students There Is No Santa Claus

[Shadow]

A teacher ruined Christmas for a class full of second-graders when she told them that there is no Santa Claus (http://www.foxnews.com/topics/holidays/santa-claus.htm#r_src=ramp) during a lesson about the North Pole at their Rockland County, N.Y., school.
The educator even told the youngsters, mostly 7 and 8-year-olds, that the presents under their trees were put out by their parents, and not St. Nick.
The stunning behavior caused a blizzard of outrage at the quiet George W. Miller Elementary School in Nanuet, where angry parents would like to see the teacher roasted like a chestnut over an open fire.
"If that happened to my daughter in her second-grade class ... I'd be very upset," according to 48-year-old Sean Flanagan, whose child was in second grade at the school last year. "If her brothers told her [there was no Santa], they would be punished. So I can't imagine what should happen to the teacher."
A nanny picking up a child at the school said that anyone who tells kids that Santa does not exist should get coal in their stocking.


Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/12/03/new-york-teacher-tells-kids-there-is-no-santa-claus/?test=latestnews#ixzz1faD4LYSz

[jimnyc]

She should be fired or some other heavy punishment. What happens in children's homes, and from their parents, should remain there. Just because kids might get excited and perhaps discuss the issue with friends at school, DOES NOT give this idiotic teacher the right to ruin a holiday for the children.

[Shadow]

She should be fired or some other heavy punishment. What happens in children's homes, and from their parents, should remain there. Just because kids might get excited and perhaps discuss the issue with friends at school, DOES NOT give this idiotic teacher the right to ruin a holiday for the children.

I Know. What kind of cold hearted bitch would tell kids that their parents put out ther presents instead of Santa...right before christmas. Way to ruin kids childhood dreams.

[Kathianne]

Seems there's a bit of that going around this year. However the punishment for this anchor, who's really very good and has been in Chicago news for years, was to publicly apologize and she read "Yes, Virginia, There Really Is A Santa Clause." Not mentioned in this article is that she went outside the studios along Mag Mile and told people what she did and what they thought of her mistake. Minutes of strangers calling her an idiot!

http://www.myfoxchicago.com/dpp/news/robin-robinson-fox-chicago-anchor-says-santa-claus-is-not-real-doesnt-exist-20111130


Is Santa Real? FOX Chicago News Anchor Robin Robinson Apologizes For Saying He's NotUpdated: Wednesday, 30 Nov 2011, 10:02 PM CST
Published : Wednesday, 30 Nov 2011, 8:12 PM CST
By Robin Robinson, FOX Chicago News


Tonight's Talker is about me talking too much without thinking about who else might be in the room with the adults watching the news.


And since I try not to make the same mistake twice: Warning, we are about to talk about Santa Claus again. You might want your children to leave the room (which is what we should have said last night).

(http://www.myfoxchicago.com/dpp/news/shopping-mall-santas-scale-back-kids-expectations-economy-money-profiling-parents-20111129)

It was careless and callous to say what I said in what could have been mixed company. So many kids don't get to be children that for those who can live the wonder and magic of Christmas, I would never spoil it intentionally. I sincerely apologize!


We've certainly heard how you feel about my mistake, and, since the talker is about opinions, here are some of yours from our Facebook page...

[jimnyc]

Seems there's a bit of that going around this year. However the punishment for this anchor, who's really very good and has been in Chicago news for years, was to publicly apologize and she read "Yes, Virginia, There Really Is A Santa Clause." Not mentioned in this article is that she went outside the studios along Mag Mile and told people what she did and what they thought of her mistake. Minutes of strangers calling her an idiot!

http://www.myfoxchicago.com/dpp/news/robin-robinson-fox-chicago-anchor-says-santa-claus-is-not-real-doesnt-exist-20111130

Yep, just heard about that one yesterday too. At least she wasn't speaking directly to children (that I'm aware of), nor is she caring for children - but her comments were outright stupid.

[Kathianne]

Yep, just heard about that one yesterday too. At least she wasn't speaking directly to children (that I'm aware of), nor is she caring for children - but her comments were outright stupid.

True that. Basically it was after 9pm on a weeknight and the story was about parents struggling at buying toys this year for small children. Something set her off and she went off script. Bob Sirott, her co-anchor was seen with his jaw dropping. When she finished he called her, "Ebenezer." LOL! She knew right away she'd screwed up, her message was basically that 'in these trying times, kids will understand that Santa doesn't like them less than kids that get what they asked for.' I don't think she'd thought of the Santa believers watching the 9-10 O'clock news and certainly not the reaction of the audience while she did that. But she definitely had to make it 'right.'

[Shadow]

True that. Basically it was after 9pm on a weeknight and the story was about parents struggling at buying toys this year for small children. Something set her off and she went off script. Bob Sirott, her co-anchor was seen with his jaw dropping. When she finished he called her, "Ebenezer." LOL! She knew right away she'd screwed up, her message was basically that 'in these trying times, kids will understand that Santa doesn't like them less than kids that get what they asked for.' I don't think she'd thought of the Santa believers watching the 9-10 O'clock news and certainly not the reaction of the audience while she did that. But she definitely had to make it 'right.'

Maybe she got that from "santa training class". Apparently the mall santa's are being told to size up the families and down play children's expectations and are told not to "promise" anything. In fact some are coming up with elaborate stories about wayward elf's that slowed production down...so that the kids may not be getting things they want this year.

http://patdollard.com/2011/11/mall-santas-told-to-curb-expectations-of-poor-kids/

[Kathianne]

Maybe she got that from "santa training class". Apparently the mall santa's are being told to size up the families and down play children's expectations and are told not to "promise" anything. In fact some are coming up with elaborate stories about wayward elf's that slowed production down...so that the kids may not be getting things they want this year.

http://patdollard.com/2011/11/mall-santas-told-to-curb-expectations-of-poor-kids/

It's nice to read that a Santa school is concerned. I know that I have dreaded Christmas last year and this. However, I think I'd be totally looney tunes, instead of just occasionally so if I had small children. Then again, we'd all be on the street with my current income if I had to support them too. I just can't imagine how so many young families are coping, especially at the holidays.

[ConHog]

She should be fired or some other heavy punishment. What happens in children's homes, and from their parents, should remain there. Just because kids might get excited and perhaps discuss the issue with friends at school, DOES NOT give this idiotic teacher the right to ruin a holiday for the children.

Fired is going a little far. Yes, I believe it should be up to parents when to tell children there is no Santa, but taking away a teacher's livelyhood over it is just a tad extreme, UNLESS said teacher was specifically instructed NOT to do so and ignored the instructions.

Fact is a firing would never survive arbitration if it went to that anyway.

Depending on the teacher anything from a simple "don't do that again" to a letter of reprimand would suffice.

[PostmodernProphet]

It could be worse.....she might have told them that the real reason we celebrate Christmas is to remember the birth of Jesus Christ.....then she WOULD have been fired.....

[jimnyc]

Fired is going a little far. Yes, I believe it should be up to parents when to tell children there is no Santa, but taking away a teacher's livelyhood over it is just a tad extreme, UNLESS said teacher was specifically instructed NOT to do so and ignored the instructions.

Fact is a firing would never survive arbitration if it went to that anyway.

Depending on the teacher anything from a simple "don't do that again" to a letter of reprimand would suffice.

That may be good enough punishment in YOUR eyes, but I'll guarantee you that a TON of parents who now have to have discussions with their children feel otherwise. And you have no idea at all what type of contracts are laid out between the teachers union and the district where she teaches. Does she have tenure? Is she even in the union yet? Does the contract spell out what happens when a teacher veers off course and discusses things not in the curriculum?

[logroller]

That may be good enough punishment in YOUR eyes, but I'll guarantee you that a TON of parents who now have to have discussions with their children feel otherwise. And you have no idea at all what type of contracts are laid out between the teachers union and the district where she teaches. Does she have tenure? Is she even in the union yet? Does the contract spell out what happens when a teacher veers off course and discusses things not in the curriculum?

a 'Santa Clause'? :laugh:

As CH is school board member, he probably has some idea what type of contracts are laid out. In general, excepting at-will employment/ no-guarantee contract, firing a teacher because they did such a thing would not likely justify termination in any legal sense. Wouldn't you agree?

[jimnyc]

a 'Santa Clause'? :laugh:

As CH is school board member, he probably has some idea what type of contracts are laid out. In general, excepting at-will employment/ no-guarantee contract, firing a teacher because they did such a thing would not likely justify termination in any legal sense. Wouldn't you agree?

Things not always need to make sense when getting fired, depending on your classification and your contract. Things that "I" think are odd to fire a teacher for, and all I find as lesser offenses than "ruining" Christmas for these kids, or ruining Santa at the very least.

Things teachers have been fired for:

Facebook comments
Photos on FB of drinking outside the workplace
Comments made at OWS event
Having sex, with adults, in private, on her own time
For "friending" a student on FB
Teacher WAS a gay porn star prior to employment
Had sex during parachute jump on own time
For having a bible - simply sitting on the desk
Fired over trip to museum, and it was art teacher, and parents signed slips - all over a dumb nude statue
For wearing a bikini on weekend and students found pictures of her, in a bikini, and leaked them around
Pictured drinking a glass of WINE, during the summertime out of school!

They can dictate actions out of school and fire teachers for them, but can't or shouldn't do much about what happens IN school, and directly effects the children's lives?

[Love Monkey]

I never really bought into this Santa Claus thing when I was a kid but when I found out there was no Easter Bunny it really broke me up. I almost failed the 8th grade because of it...

[logroller]

Things not always need to make sense when getting fired, depending on your classification and your contract. Things that "I" think are odd to fire a teacher for, and all I find as lesser offenses than "ruining" Christmas for these kids, or ruining Santa at the very least.

Things teachers have been fired for:

Facebook comments
Photos on FB of drinking outside the workplace
Comments made at OWS event
Having sex, with adults, in private, on her own time
For "friending" a student on FB
Teacher WAS a gay porn star prior to employment
Had sex during parachute jump on own time
For having a bible - simply sitting on the desk
Fired over trip to museum, and it was art teacher, and parents signed slips - all over a dumb nude statue
For wearing a bikini on weekend and students found pictures of her, in a bikini, and leaked them around
Pictured drinking a glass of WINE, during the summertime out of school!

They can dictate actions out of school and fire teachers for them, but can't or shouldn't do much about what happens IN school, and directly effects the children's lives?
And of those, which stood up to legal challenge? The pertinent difference between many of those instances you've listed and Santa, is many of those issues are debatably valid reasons: public sex, homosex, porn star, intoxication, publically disparaging comments of one's employer etc- any of which could compromise the integrity/ authority of the educational organization. Whereas Santa is farsical and not tied to any moral or ethical agenda. It's just a tradition, like saying 'bless you' after someone sneezes. Would you fire a teacher who explained that a sneeze isn't someone's soul escaping?
Now I don't think that justifies her doing what she did mind you. were I a parent or coworker I would certainly ostracize her, socially, and get her to quit on her own accord- I just don't think she should be fired for it.

[fj1200]

Things teachers have been fired for:

...

Public schools or private?

[jimnyc]

Public schools or private?

All the examples I gave were public schools, or I believe so. Don't even get me started on what people have been fired for in private schools or religious schools!

[jimnyc]

And of those, which stood up to legal challenge? The pertinent difference between many of those instances you've listed and Santa, is many of those issues are debatably valid reasons: public sex, homosex, porn star, intoxication, publically disparaging comments of one's employer etc- any of which could compromise the integrity/ authority of the educational organization. Whereas Santa is farsical and not tied to any moral or ethical agenda. It's just a tradition, like saying 'bless you' after someone sneezes. Would you fire a teacher who explained that a sneeze isn't someone's soul escaping?
Now I don't think that justifies her doing what she did mind you. were I a parent or coworker I would certainly ostracize her, socially, and get her to quit on her own accord- I just don't think she should be fired for it.

To my knowledge, none of the teachers got their jobs back. I also believe their firings were valid and would have stood up to legal scrutiny. Employees have a very lot of leeway when it comes to terminating employees. Of course contracts give employees much more "rights", but in schools they are probably another place like pro sports with some sort of "morality clause" where they have to display the integrity the school wishes.

[Abbey Marie]

Maybe she got that from "santa training class". Apparently the mall santa's are being told to size up the families and down play children's expectations and are told not to "promise" anything. In fact some are coming up with elaborate stories about wayward elf's that slowed production down...so that the kids may not be getting things they want this year.

http://patdollard.com/2011/11/mall-santas-told-to-curb-expectations-of-poor-kids/

Perhaps the parents of children who won't be getting the expensive toys, shouldn't take them to sit on Santa's lap in the first place. We told our daughter from the earliest age that most of her presents were from us, and the ones that appeared overnight were from Santa. That seemed to lower her expectations of Santa, and let her know that we paid for most things.

[logroller]

To my knowledge, none of the teachers got their jobs back. I also believe their firings were valid and would have stood up to legal scrutiny. Employees have a very lot of leeway when it comes to terminating employees. Of course contracts give employees much more "rights", but in schools they are probably another place like pro sports with some sort of "morality clause" where they have to display the integrity the school wishes.

Is telling a kid there is no Santa immoral? I could make an equally strong, if not stronger, argument for furthering the belief in Santa as immoral, but that's not really the issue. As I see it, it is a question of degree to which a public employee is bound to honor the personal beliefs of another, even if the they are patently false. Some things are best left alone. Once you introduce something, even something as innocent as a book, it can introduce concepts which kids are capable of questioning. I don't know what the story was, but I imagine it spawned questions as to the reality of Santa Claus and, from experience with my own children, I can tell an 8 year old can comprehend the illogical nature of man living at the North Pole, flying through the air in a reindeer drawn sleigh and delivering presents to all the good boys and girls in one night. If I was the teacher in the OP, I'd tell them what I told my own kids--"Believe as you wish; but as soon as you stop believing in Santa Claus and the miracle of Christmas, you'll get socks and underwear courtesy of your mom and me." Haven't heard a peep of disbelief since.:thumb:

[jimnyc]

Is telling a kid there is no Santa immoral? I could make an equally strong, if not stronger, argument for furthering the belief in Santa as immoral, but that's not really the issue. As I see it, it is a question of degree to which a public employee is bound to honor the personal beliefs of another, even if the they are patently false. Some things are best left alone. Once you introduce something, even something as innocent as a book, it can introduce concepts which kids are capable of questioning. I don't know what the story was, but I imagine it spawned questions as to the reality of Santa Claus and, from experience with my own children, I can tell an 8 year old can comprehend the illogical nature of man living at the North Pole, flying through the air in a reindeer drawn sleigh and delivering presents to all the good boys and girls in one night. If I was the teacher in the OP, I'd tell them what I told my own kids--"Believe as you wish; but as soon as you stop believing in Santa Claus and the miracle of Christmas, you'll get socks and underwear courtesy of your mom and me." Haven't heard a peep of disbelief since.:thumb:

Immoral or not, it's certainly not something on the curriculum and yet another thing I think should be handled by each family and each individual - not by a teacher who happens to share different beliefs. Some kids may have laughed because they "knew" already, while some kids may have had their Christmases "ruined", or at least changed. I don't think a teacher should have that "power".

[avatar4321]

But there is a santa clause. He just died centuries ago and we keep his memory alive in our traditions.

[Shadow]

Perhaps the parents of children who won't be getting the expensive toys, shouldn't take them to sit on Santa's lap in the first place. We told our daughter from the earliest age that most of her presents were from us, and the ones that appeared overnight were from Santa. That seemed to lower her expectations of Santa, and let her know that we paid for most things.

I agree. What does Santa fibbing to the kids to spare their feelings do anyway? They are still going to hear that their friends got what they wanted...so, that just sends the message that Santa plays favorites.

I have pretty much done the same thing you did in the past. Kids made out a list of several items they might want... Santa brought one thing from that list and filled stockings. Mom bought the main gift they asked for, but they never got everything they wrote down.

[Psychoblues]

Perpetuating the lies of Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy and all other superstitions, especially to children, is in and of itself totally in keeping with the standards of raising up criminal behavior as acceptable behavior. Like most of you I raised my kids repeating the awful tales of the superstitions. With my grandchildren I have not been so dishonest. If a kid never hears or expects the so-called miracles and lies then they have no reason for the heartache that must come when they learn the truth. In fact, most societies have no counterpart to these falsehoods of the west and their children seem to do quite well without all that. I guess it's just a preference when it comes to truth or lies with some people.

Psychoblues

[logroller]

Immoral or not, it's certainly not something on the curriculum and yet another thing I think should be handled by each family and each individual - not by a teacher who happens to share different beliefs. Some kids may have laughed because they "knew" already, while some kids may have had their Christmases "ruined", or at least changed. I don't think a teacher should have that "power".
It was a geography lesson- guessing that's curricular; the students brought up Santa. Obviously, the teacher shouldn't have said what she/ he did-- I'm sure it's regretted. Regardless, Santa isnt what Christmas is about, nor the toys, it's peace love and generosity. Thats something to believe in:thumb:

[Nukeman]

Perpetuating the lies of Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy and all other superstitions, especially to children, is in and of itself totally in keeping with the standards of raising up criminal behavior as acceptable behavior. Like most of you I raised my kids repeating the awful tales of the superstitions. With my grandchildren I have not been so dishonest. If a kid never hears or expects the so-called miracles and lies then they have no reason for the heartache that must come when they learn the truth. In fact, most societies have no counterpart to these falsehoods of the west and their children seem to do quite well without all that. I guess it's just a preference when it comes to truth or lies with some people.

PsychobluesYou are a very sad person indeed!!! YOU and people like you demand your persuit of happines yet you are the first to attempt to denie others the same. NO YOU don't have to tell YOUR children or grandchildren but you sure as hell don't have the RIGHT to tell MY children.. That is MY right NOT yours...

[darin]

it's immoral for a teacher to tell the truth to kids; yet not for parents to lie to their kids for a decade?

Not the teacher's place, obviously, to break the news. I get that. However, I'll never understand how parents can make that stuff up; probably because I grew up with a German celebration; we opened presents xmas eve. Santa became irrelevant.

[fj1200]

All the examples I gave were public schools, or I believe so. Don't even get me started on what people have been fired for in private schools or religious schools!

Just wondering, there's quite the difference between the two and I could see most of your list standing up in private schools and not as much in Public.


Perpetuating the lies of Social Security, Medicare, and all other superstitions, especially to grown adults, is in and of itself totally in keeping with the standards of raising up individuals who expect government to take care of them as acceptable behavior. Like most of you I raised my kids repeating the awful tales of the superstitions. With my grandchildren I have not been so dishonest. If a kid never hears or expects the so-called miracles and lies then they have no reason for the heartache that must come when they learn the truth. In fact, most societies have no counterpart to these falsehoods of the west and their children seem to do quite well without all that. I guess it's just a preference when it comes to truth or lies with some people.

Corrected.

So we should start to warn people of the unsustainability of our entitlement society?

[ConHog]

Perpetuating the lies of Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy and all other superstitions, especially to children, is in and of itself totally in keeping with the standards of raising up criminal behavior as acceptable behavior. Like most of you I raised my kids repeating the awful tales of the superstitions. With my grandchildren I have not been so dishonest. If a kid never hears or expects the so-called miracles and lies then they have no reason for the heartache that must come when they learn the truth. In fact, most societies have no counterpart to these falsehoods of the west and their children seem to do quite well without all that. I guess it's just a preference when it comes to truth or lies with some people.

Psychoblues

How sad it would be to be your grandchild then. Your saying "hey one day kid you'll be an adult and find out life isn't all rosy, so fuck it I'm not going to let you enjoy your childhood either."

My 6 y/o believes in Santa, the Tooth Fairy, the Easter Bunny, and God. Oh and hard work and self sacrifice. I see no problem with letting a child be a child.

[jimnyc]

Just wondering, there's quite the difference between the two and I could see most of your list standing up in private schools and not as much in Public.

Not things I would fire someone for, especially things off the clock and/or on their vacation, but they're easily held up. Schools have standards and integrity, and when someone brings a "black eye" to the school, they'll toss the teacher. I don't agree with the firings, but they're all legit, public or private. I'll bet that each and every teacher and the union contracts have clauses in there about how to conduct one self both in and out of school.

[Abbey Marie]

it's immoral for a teacher to tell the truth to kids; yet not for parents to lie to their kids for a decade?

Not the teacher's place, obviously, to break the news. I get that. However, I'll never understand how parents can make that stuff up; probably because I grew up with a German celebration; we opened presents xmas eve. Santa became irrelevant.

As soon as we kids were old enough to not believe in Santa, we did the same. And we did/do the same with our daughter. Christmas Eve is the best! :cool:

[Abbey Marie]

Btw, still trying to figure out what an "NT" teacher is?
Is this a typo for NY?

[avatar4321]

Perpetuating the lies of Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy and all other superstitions, especially to children, is in and of itself totally in keeping with the standards of raising up criminal behavior as acceptable behavior. Like most of you I raised my kids repeating the awful tales of the superstitions. With my grandchildren I have not been so dishonest. If a kid never hears or expects the so-called miracles and lies then they have no reason for the heartache that must come when they learn the truth. In fact, most societies have no counterpart to these falsehoods of the west and their children seem to do quite well without all that. I guess it's just a preference when it comes to truth or lies with some people.

Psychoblues

But there was a Santa Claus.

And children should believe in miracles because there are miracles.


It was a geography lesson- guessing that's curricular; the students brought up Santa. Obviously, the teacher shouldn't have said what she/ he did-- I'm sure it's regretted. Regardless, Santa isnt what Christmas is about, nor the toys, it's peace love and generosity. Thats something to believe in


Peace, love, and generosity? Maybe as a secondary purpose. But Christmas is about the condescension of Jesus Christ. The Son of God left His throne in Heaven and became a man so that men could become the sons of God.


it's immoral for a teacher to tell the truth to kids; yet not for parents to lie to their kids for a decade?

Not the teacher's place, obviously, to break the news. I get that. However, I'll never understand how parents can make that stuff up; probably because I grew up with a German celebration; we opened presents xmas eve. Santa became irrelevant.

Nor do I. I have no desire to lie to my child.


Btw, still trying to figure out what an "NT" teacher is?
Is this a typo for NY?

It certainly is.

[Abbey Marie]

Peace, love, and generosity? Maybe as a secondary purpose. But Christmas is about the condescension of Jesus Christ. The Son of God left His throne in Heaven and became a man so that men could become the sons of God.

:clap:

:thumb:

:2up:

:happy0100:

[CSM]

Underlying all this: Does the teacher (who obviously doesn't believe in Santa Claus) have the right to tell your child that God doesn't exist because the teacher believes such a supreme being does not exist? Does the teacher have the right to tell your child that she is being lied to because the child's family belongs to a "false" religion? I'm just wondering how far down this road some posters here think we should go.

[ConHog]

Underlying all this: Does the teacher (who obviously doesn't believe in Santa Claus) have the right to tell your child that God doesn't exist because the teacher believes such a supreme being does not exist? Does the teacher have the right to tell your child that she is being lied to because the child's family belongs to a "false" religion? I'm just wondering how far down this road some posters here think we should go.

No, a teacher teaching religion is a one way ticket to lawsuitville if the wrong child hears. Not that I would equate believing in Santa to believing in God anyway.

[CSM]

No, a teacher teaching religion is a one way ticket to lawsuitville if the wrong child hears. Not that I would equate believing in Santa to believing in God anyway.

I would not presume to imply equality between God and Santa. Santa needs a sleigh pulled by reindeer (of all things!) to get around.

[ConHog]

I would not presume to imply equality between God and Santa. Santa needs a sleigh pulled by reindeer (of all things!) to get around.

That always makes me laugh, wouldn't Santa with all his abilities have upgraded by now? Why does he still make a list? Hasn't he ever heard of a computerized database? Why wold he be working his ass off to deliver all the presents around the world on one night? Doesn't he realize FedEx delivers on Christmas now? Why is Santa sliding down chimneys? Doesn't he realize that's how a fat fuck gets stuck inside one?

Santa dumb.

[CSM]

That always makes me laugh, wouldn't Santa with all his abilities have upgraded by now? Why does he still make a list? Hasn't he ever heard of a computerized database? Why wold he be working his ass off to deliver all the presents around the world on one night? Doesn't he realize FedEx delivers on Christmas now? Why is Santa sliding down chimneys? Doesn't he realize that's how a fat fuck gets stuck inside one?

Santa dumb.

I'm thinking its all part of his deception plan. I bet he has the equivalent of the Star Trek transporter (thousands of em) and just all those gifts that way. Meantime, the dumbass civilians are looking for the fat guy sliding down the chimney. Hey, I just got an idea for a new Christmas movie! Picture Santa as a corporate suit running an underground manufacturing/distribution corporation with all the high tech stuff while running the huge deception to protect the operations. Grinch like cyber hackers et al thrown in the mix! hmmmmm

[logroller]

Peace, love, and generosity? Maybe as a secondary purpose. But Christmas is about the condescension of Jesus Christ. The Son of God left His throne in Heaven and became a man so that men could become the sons of God.

Secular perhaps, but not secondary. Haven't we always been God's 'children', even before Jesus came to Earth?

[ConHog]

Secular perhaps, but not secondary. Haven't we always been God's 'children', even before Jesus came to Earth?

I believe that only the Israelites were God's children pre Jesus.Then with the sacrifice Jesus made we were ALL brought into the fold so to speak.

[Abbey Marie]

Secular perhaps, but not secondary. Haven't we always been God's 'children', even before Jesus came to Earth?

Regardless, Christmas celebrates Christ's coming to Earth.

[logroller]

Regardless, Christmas celebrates Christ's coming to Earth. Indeed, but why? I think Christ coming to Earth is inextricably tied to why He did, in fulfillment of the prophecy. Christmas isn't merely an observance of His birth. Just look at John 3:16, love is specified, generous in giving His only begotten Son. Admittedly, peace isn't mentioned, though I just assume everlasting life is peaceful. I look then to Luke 2:14, "Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men" and Isaiah 9:6 "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."