FBI fake terror entrapment? Job security maybe

[revelarts]

Fake terror plots, paid informants: the tactics of FBI 'entrapment' questioned

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/nov/16/fbi-entrapment-fake-terror-plots?fb=native&CMP=FBCNETTXT9038


Critics say bureau is running a sting operation across America, targeting vulnerable people by luring them into fake terror plots


Paul Harris (http://www.guardian.co.uk/profile/paulharris) in New York (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/new-york)
guardian.co.uk (http://www.guardian.co.uk/), <time datetime="2011-11-16T12:33EST" pubdate="">Wednesday 16 November 2011 12.33 EST </time>
Article history (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/nov/16/fbi-entrapment-fake-terror-plots?fb=native&CMP=FBCNETTXT9038#history-link-box)
The FBI has drawn criticism over its apparent use of 'entrapment' tactics. Photograph:


David Williams did not have an easy life. He moved to Newburgh, a gritty, impoverished town on the banks of the Hudson an hour or so north of New York (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/new-york), at just 10 years old. For a young, black American boy with a father in jail, trouble was everywhere.
Williams also made bad choices. He ended up going to jail for dealing drugs. When he came out in 2007 he tried to go straight, but money was tight and his brother, Lord, needed cash for a liver transplant. Life is hard in Newburgh if you are poor, have a drug rap and need cash quickly.
His aunt, Alicia McWilliams, was honest about the tough streets her nephew was dealing with. "Newburgh is a hard place," she said. So it was perhaps no surprise that in May, 2009, David Williams was arrested again and hit with a 25-year jail sentence. But it was not for drugs offences. Or any other common crime. Instead Williams and three other struggling local men beset by drug, criminal and mental health issues were convicted of an Islamic terrorist plot to blow up Jewish synagogues and shoot down military jets with missiles.
Even more shocking was that the organisation, money, weapons and motivation for this plot did not come from real Islamic terrorists. It came from the FBI (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/fbi), and an informant paid to pose as a terrorist mastermind paying big bucks for help in carrying out an attack. For McWilliams, her own government had actually cajoled and paid her beloved nephew into being a terrorist, created a fake plot and then jailed him for it. "I feel like I am in the Twilight Zone," she told the Guardian.
Lawyers for the so-called Newburgh Four have now launched an appeal that will be held early next year. Advocates hope the case offers the best chance of exposing the issue of FBI "entrapment" in terror cases. "We have as close to a legal entrapment case as I have ever seen," said Susanne Brody, who represents another Newburgh defendant, Onta Williams.

Some experts agree. "The target, the motive, the ideology and the plot were all led by the FBI," said Karen Greenberg, a law professor at Fordham University in New York, who specialises in studying the new FBI tactics....



I remember the Florida 7 or something like that was the same thing, the FBI found these poor bedraggled guys in a warehouse and told them they would get funding to blow up the sears tower. they didn't even have bus ticket money to go Chicago, if they even knew it was in Chicago..


1000 Alquida are not enough to keep the FBI busy folks they've got a lot of competition for terror funds CIA, NSA, TSA , and all the other Homeland secret police folks looking under rocks for terrorist.
it's really kind pitiful

[Gunny]

:tinfoil:

[revelarts]

Book
The Terror Factory: Inside the FBI's Manufactured War on Terrorism


A groundbreaking work of investigative journalism, The Terror Factory: Inside the FBI's Manufactured War on Terrorism exposes how the FBI has, under the guise of engaging in counterterrorism since 9/11, built a network of more than 15,000 informants whose primary purpose is to infiltrate Muslim communities to create and facilitate phony terrorist plots so that the Bureau can then claim it is winning the war on terror.

An outgrowth of Trevor Aaronson's work as an investigative reporting fellow at the University of California, Berkeley, which culminated in an award-winning cover story in Mother Jones magazine, The Terror Factory reveals shocking information about the criminals, con men, and liars the FBI uses as paid informants--including the story of an accused murderer who has become one of the Bureau's most prolific terrorism snitches--as well as documenting the extreme methods the FBI uses to ensnare Muslims in terrorist plots, which are in reality conceived and financed by the FBI.

The book also offers unprecedented detail into how the FBI has transformed from a reactive law enforcement agency to a proactive counterterrorism organization that traps hapless individuals in manufactured terrorist plots in order to justify the $3 billion it spends every year fighting terrorism.

entrapment n. in criminal law, the act of law enforcement officers or government agents to induce or encourage a person to commit a crime when the potential criminal expresses a desire not to go ahead. The key to entrapment is whether the idea for the commission or encouragement of the criminal act originated with the police or government agents instead of with the "criminal." Entrapment, if proved, is a defense to a criminal prosecution. The accused often claims entrapment in so-called "stings" in which undercover agents buy or sell narcotics, prostitutes' services, or arrange to purchase goods believed to be stolen. The factual question is: Would Jahiel Begood have purchased the drugs if not pressed by the narc?


James Cromitie (http://motherjones.com/node/127157) was a man of bluster and bigotry. He made up wild stories about his supposed exploits, like the one about firing gas bombs into police precincts using a flare gun, and he ranted about Jews. "The worst brother in the whole Islamic world is better than 10 billion Yahudi," he once said (https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/230124-cromite-uc-transcripts-1.html#document/p21/a30101).
A 45-year-old Walmart stocker who'd adopted the name Abdul Rahman after converting to Islam during a prison stint for selling cocaine, Cromitie had lots of worries—convincing his wife he wasn't sleeping around, keeping up with the rent, finding a decent job despite his felony record. But he dreamed of making his mark. He confided as much in a middle-aged Pakistani he knew as Maqsood.
"I'm gonna run into something real big (https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/230124-cromite-uc-transcripts-1.html#document/p97/a30100)," he'd say. "I just feel it, I'm telling you. I feel it."



Maqsood and Cromitie had met at a mosque in Newburgh, a struggling former Air Force town about an hour north of New York City. They struck up a friendship, talking for hours about the world's problems and how the Jews were to blame.
It was all talk until November 2008, when Maqsood pressed his new friend.
"Do you think you are a better recruiter or a better action man?" Maqsood asked (https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/230124-cromite-uc-transcripts-1.html#document/p121/a30102).
"I'm both," Cromitie bragged.
"My people would be very happy to know that, brother. Honestly."
"Who's your people?" Cromitie asked.
"Jaish-e-Mohammad."

Maqsood said he was an agent for the Pakistani terror group, tasked with assembling a team to wage jihad in the United States. He asked Cromitie what he would attack if he had the means. A bridge, Cromitie said.
"But bridges are too hard to be hit," Maqsood pleaded, "because they're made of steel."
"Of course they're made of steel," Cromitie replied. "But the same way they can be put up, they can be brought down."
Maqsood coaxed Cromitie toward a more realistic plan. The Mumbai attacks were all over the news, and he pointed out how those gunmen targeted hotels, cafés, and a Jewish community center.
"With your intelligence, I know you can manipulate someone," Cromitie told his friend. "But not me, because I'm intelligent." The pair settled on a plot to bomb synagogues in the Bronx, and then fire Stinger missiles at airplanes taking off from Stewart International Airport in the southern Hudson Valley. Maqsood would provide all the explosives and weapons, even the vehicles. "We have two missiles, okay?" he offered (https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/230139-cromite-uc-transcripts-2.html#document/p109/a12). "Two Stingers, rocket missiles."
Maqsood was an undercover operative; that much was true. But not for Jaish-e-Mohammad. His real name was Shahed Hussain (http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/08/shahed-hussain-fbi-informant), and he was a paid informant for the Federal Bureau of Investigation.
Ever since 9/11, counterterrorism has been the FBI's No. 1 priority, consuming the lion's share of its budget—$3.3 billion, compared to $2.6 billion for organized crime—and much of the attention of field agents and a massive, nationwide network of informants. After years of emphasizing informant recruiting as a key task for its agents, the bureau now maintains a roster of 15,000 spies—many of them tasked, as Hussain was, with infiltrating Muslim communities in the United States. In addition, for every informant officially listed in the bureau's records, there are as many as three unofficial ones, according to one former high-level FBI official, known in bureau parlance as "hip pockets."

The informants could be doctors, clerks, imams. Some might not even consider themselves informants. But the FBI regularly taps all of them as part of a domestic intelligence apparatus whose only historical peer might be COINTELPRO (http://vault.fbi.gov/cointel-pro), the program the bureau ran from the '50s to the '70s to discredit and marginalize organizations ranging from the Ku Klux Klan to civil-rights and protest groups.
Throughout the FBI’s history, informant numbers have been closely guarded secrets. Periodically, however, the bureau has released those figures. A Senate oversight committee in 1975 found the FBI had 1,500 informant (http://www.justice.gov/oig/special/0509/chapter2.htm)s (http://www.justice.gov/oig/special/0509/chapter2.htm). In 1980, officials disclosed there were 2,800 (http://articles.latimes.com/1986-06-15/news/mn-11287_1_fbi-informant). Six years later, following the FBI’s push into drugs and organized crime, the number of bureau informants ballooned to 6,000, the Los Angeles Times reported (http://articles.latimes.com/1986-06-15/news/mn-11287_1_fbi-informant) in 1986. And according to the FBI, the number grew significantly after 9/11. In its fiscal year 2008 budget authorization request (https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/238034-33-fbi-se-2.html), the FBI disclosed that it it had been been working under a November 2004 presidential directive demanding an increase (https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/238034-33-fbi-se-2.html#document/p38/a30817) in "human source development and management," and that it needed $12.7 million (https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/238034-33-fbi-se-2.html#document/p36/a30818) for a program to keep tabs on its spy network and create software to track and manage informants.
The bureau's strategy has changed significantly from the days when officials feared another coordinated, internationally financed attack from an Al Qaeda sleeper cell. Today, counterterrorism experts believe groups like Al Qaeda, battered by the war in Afghanistan and the efforts of the global intelligence community, have shifted to a franchise model, using the internet to encourage sympathizers to carry out attacks in their name. The main domestic threat, as the FBI sees it, is a lone wolf.
The bureau's answer has been a strategy known variously as "preemption," "prevention," and "disruption"—identifying and neutralizing potential lone wolves before they move toward action. To that end, FBI agents and informants target not just active jihadists, but tens of thousands of law-abiding people, seeking to identify those disgruntled few who might participate in a plot given the means and the opportunity. And then, in case after case, the government provides the plot, the means, and the opportunity.
Here's how it works: Informants report to their handlers on people who have, say, made statements sympathizing with terrorists. Those names are then cross-referenced with existing intelligence data, such as immigration and criminal records. FBI agents may then assign an undercover operative to approach the target by posing as a radical. Sometimes the operative will propose a plot, provide explosives, even lead the target in a fake oath to Al Qaeda. Once enough incriminating information has been gathered, there's an arrest—and a press conference (http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?section=news/local&id=6824533) announcing another foiled plot.
If this sounds vaguely familiar, it's because such sting operations are a fixture in the headlines. Remember the Washington Metro (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/10/27/national/main6996775.shtml) bombing plot? The New York subway (http://articles.cnn.com/2004-08-28/us/ny.bombplot_1_subway-station-shahawar-matin-siraj-herald-square-station?_s=PM:US) plot? The guys who planned to blow up the Sears Tower (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/04/16/AR2008041603607.html)? The teenager seeking to bomb a Portland Christmas tree (http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Justice/2010/1129/FBI-alleged-Christmas-tree-bomber-thought-9-11-was-awesome) lighting? Each of those plots, and dozens more across the nation, was led by an FBI asset.
Over the past year, Mother Jones and the Investigative Reporting Program at the University of California-Berkeley have examined prosecutions of 508 defendants in terrorism-related cases, as defined by the Department of Justice. Our investigation found:


Nearly half the prosecutions involved the use of informants, many of them incentivized by money (operatives can be paid as much as $100,000 per assignment) or the need to work off criminal or immigration violations. (For more on the details of those 508 cases, see our charts page (http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/08/terror-trials-numbers) and searchable database (http://motherjones.com/fbi-terrorist).)
Sting operations resulted in prosecutions against 158 defendants. Of that total, 49 defendants participated in plots led by an agent provocateur—an FBI operative instigating terrorist action.
With three exceptions, all of the high-profile domestic terror plots of the last decade were actually FBI stings. (The exceptions are Najibullah Zazi, who came close to bombing (http://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/2010/April/10-ag-473.html) the New York City subway system in September 2009; Hesham Mohamed Hadayet (http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=91485&page=1), an Egyptian who opened fire on the El-Al ticket counter at the Los Angeles airport; and failed Times Square bomber Faisal Shahzad (http://motherjones.com/fbi-terrorist/faisal-shahzad-times-square-car-bomb).)
In many sting cases, key encounters between the informant and the target were not recorded—making it hard for defendants claiming entrapment to prove their case.
Terrorism-related charges are so difficult to beat in court, even when the evidence is thin, that defendants often don't risk a trial.

Advertise on MotherJones.com (http://www.motherjones.com/about/advertising/contact-form)


"The problem with the cases we're talking about is that defendants would not have done anything if not kicked in the ass by government agents," says Martin Stolar, a lawyer who represented a man caught in a 2004 sting involving New York's Herald Square (http://articles.cnn.com/2004-08-28/us/ny.bombplot_1_subway-station-shahawar-matin-siraj-herald-square-station?_s=PM:US) subway station. "They're creating crimes to solve crimes so they can claim a victory in the war on terror." In the FBI's defense, supporters argue that the bureau will only pursue a case when the target clearly is willing to participate in violent action. "If you're doing a sting right, you're offering the target multiple chances to back out," says Peter Ahearn, a retired FBI special agent who directed the Western New York Joint Terrorism Task Force and oversaw the investigation of the Lackawanna Six (http://motherjones.com/politics/2003/03/living-age-fire), an alleged terror cell near Buffalo, New York. "Real people don't say, 'Yeah, let's go bomb that place.' Real people call the cops."........


Trevor Aaronson is author of The Terror Factory: Inside the FBI’s Manufactured War on Terrorism (Ig Publishing, January 2013). He is also co-director of the Florida Center for Investigative Reporting and a senior fellow at the Schuster Institute for Investigative Journalism at Brandeis University. Aaronson was a 2010-11 fellow at the Investigative Reporting Program at the University of California, Berkeley, where he produced an award-winning project about FBI counterterrorism operations for Mother Jones.
Previously, Aaronson was an investigative reporter and editor for The Commercial Appeal in Memphis, where his stories ranged from local government investigations to reporting in Asia, Africa and South America. He was also formerly a staff writer for Miami New Times and New Times Broward-Palm Beach.
A two-time finalist for the Livingston Awards for journalists under the age of 35, Aaronson has won more than two dozen national and regional awards, including the Molly Prize, the international Data Journalism Award and the John Jay College/Harry Frank Guggenheim Excellence in Criminal Justice Reporting Award.



http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2011/08/fbi-terrorist-informants



http://www.expertwitnessradio.org/site/the-terror-factory/


http://thefreedomreport.us/?p=3089 (http://www.expertwitnessradio.org/site/the-terror-factory/)

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/Woo8pQ1KzaI?feature=player_embedded" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[aboutime]

Fake terror plots, paid informants: the tactics of FBI 'entrapment' questioned

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/nov/16/fbi-entrapment-fake-terror-plots?fb=native&CMP=FBCNETTXT9038



I remember the Florida 7 or something like that was the same thing, the FBI found these poor bedraggled guys in a warehouse and told them they would get funding to blow up the sears tower. they didn't even have bus ticket money to go Chicago, if they even knew it was in Chicago..


1000 Alquida are not enough to keep the FBI busy folks they've got a lot of competition for terror funds CIA, NSA, TSA , and all the other Homeland secret police folks looking under rocks for terrorist.
it's really kind pitiful


Rev. Bet you are one of those people who is still convinced Building 7 was intentionally bombed on 9-11, and give credit to Bush for being the mastermind of those attacks.

[revelarts]

Rev. Bet you are one of those people who...

aboutime have you got anything to reply to the info in this thread
or are just trying to make the thought of it go away by assuming the messenger has some problems?

[aboutime]

aboutime have you got anything to reply to the info in this thread
or are just trying to make the thought of it go away by assuming the messenger has some problems?


Rev. You bet I do. Stories like this are almost exactly what the Obama administration needs in their fight FROM WITHIN here in this nation. Bringing down the FBI, CIA, and our Military is all coming together at once.
The more Obama and his hounds convince the People who have no Information that the FBI, CIA, and the Military are working against them. Them stronger Obama's plan for Socialist, and even Communist idea's take hold. Taking advantage of the Dependent people who wouldn't dare BITE THE HAND THAT FEEDS THEM FOR FREE..by convincing them...Only government can take care of them.

In short. This is all part of the plan to Bring DOWN this nation...slowly, and deliberately. And even you have fallen for it.

[Drummond]

I see, Revelarts, that you kicked all of this off with a Guardian article.

As I've posted before, the Guardian is a Left-wing publication, which isn't above acting disreputably. They tried to swing one of your elections away from Bush by getting British readers to cold-call residents in the 'swing State' (we'd call it a 'marginal') of Clark County, to try and get key voters to vote in favour of the Democrats.

So it's not surprising that they'd print the piece they have ... this intended for a British audience first and foremost, to help along their efforts to make Brits think and feel negatively towards the US, and just maybe try and make us think of our own standards as superior.

Observe ...

http://www.guardianlies.com/section%204/page17.html


Key sectors of the British media, including elements within the BBC, are often accused of being anti-monarchist, anti-American, pro-New Labour, and pro-Federal Europe. There is an explanation. These are Guardian tenets, and for the majority of Britain's journalists, and for an overwhelming majority of BBC News & Current Affairs journalists, The Guardian is a liberal icon whose standing should not be challenged.

The Guardian's indoctrination of Britain's media elite begins early, instilling in Britain's journalists an automaton-like loyalty akin to that shown by orphan chicks raised by humans. Ornithologists call it "imprinting". The resultant inability of the British media to challenge The Guardian's line is certainly the one logical explanation for its uncritical acceptance of The Guardian's 1994 'cash for questions' campaign, and its subsequent reluctance to air news about Hunt & Keith-Hill's investigation proving that Guardian journalists lied and submitted false documents to Sir Gordon Downey's 1997 Inquiry (see Section Three of this website).

And check this out ...

http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2007/12/guardians_nauseating_antiameri.html


We've seen it on display several times, the Guardian Unlimited's rank anti-American bias is so pronounced in this piece on the housing crisis, it defies belief.

First, the headline:

Tent City in Suburbs is cost of home crisis

The first three paragraphs of the story make it seem as if suburbia in America is shortly going to resemble African refugee camps ...
http://www.robertandrews.co.uk/2004/10/24/angry-voters-scupper-operation-clark-county/


Guardian Unlimited has been forced to halt Operation Clark County, its programme enlisting UK web users to write to electors in the key Ohio district persuading them to vote for their preferred candidate, after what it says was a spam attack from angry right-wing opponents.

The newspaper launched the effort in mid-October as a means for global citizens to influence the November "global election" for the position of leader of the free world. It paid $25 for the local electoral register, passing on names and addresses of voters to participants around the world. For a letter I found personally interesting, check out this eloquent one (http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,,1332251,00.html) from a gentleman down the road in Newport.

Despite signing up 14,000 activists by its closure this weekend, the programme immediately met resistance from critics angered at what they saw to be foreign meddling in a domestic election.

CNN said the operation had “sparked outraged”. The majority of Ohioans’ responses, indeed, told the paper, and Britons, to keep their noses out of US business.

If you insist upon posting threads such as this, do you think you could keep trashy Leftie propaganda rags out of consideration ?

Just a thought ....

[revelarts]

Drummond If you tell the truth i'll even quote you.

I am well aware of the guardians bias and yours and fox news and the NYTimes and Msnbc and Hannity and Linbaugh and Maddow etc etc.

I guess the difference between us is you just assume the left is ALWAYS wrong, and don't even consider they may have a 1/2 a fact you should even consider. You seem to assume that everything is pure undistiled left propaganda.

But i tend look to see if there are facts in what just about anyone says. And frankly it's rare that news media or the goverment or you or me lie ALL the time. I think all the MSM is like old pravda. but even Pravda had some facts in it.

So i see again in this thread you Dimiss out of hand what you don't agree without with considering the content or the original source. which are the court records and testimony of the FBI agents and informants and "terrorist".

the last item i posted was a link to a radio interview with a Former DEA and FBI agent who worked undercover for 25 years. He says while he was an officer his politics "was too the right of Atilla the Hun". he not only acknowledges the info revealed in the story in the guardian, and the OTHER SOURCES i quote he's says that it's been appeared to him for years that from the news reports that the US terrorism arrest cases have been Entrapment just about every time a report made.

And what got me thinking in this vain on this was not the guradian btw, it was a case YEARS ago called the miami 7,
i just happened to see several of the news reports on this and thught to myself "is this the best they've got., is this the terror threat we should be in mortal fear of?" it was laughable and sad.

the Gov't in the form of Roberto Gonzlaz made statements to the effect that the FBI had stoped a terror plot to blow up the Sears tower in Chicago by alqueda afiliates in Miami.
Ok sounds good right.
until you here the rest of the story.

these 7 jobless nigh on homeless guys where hangin out in in a werehouse and had form a weird religious group, with a mix of christian and muslim ideas. And Fbi "agent" approached them got in their click with gifts and convinced them that'd he had Alqueda connectings could get them money and weapons, he gave them a plan, They wanted the money and thought they could do a deed with alqeada so they took the faux weapons and were busted.

the plan was to blow up the sears towers, they didn't even have bus money to get to Chicago. all there operations money came from the FBI. One of the "terrorist" was said to have real mental issues. and there was a real question if some of these guys even knew what the sears towers was.

It was laughable that our gov't, at the highest level, consider those poor souls a threat to anything but themselves.

I'm sure you'll disagree and say i'm a horrible liberal for using my own judgment and not trusting GWBUSH and the FBI, (they knew secret stuff about them or sumthin)
but what i saw from the gov't and from the mouths of the "terrorist" in early interviews was pathetic. Since then I've been keen to see the "terrorist" and the reports of capture and almost invariable, the FBI has provided the materials, often makes the plan and the 'terrorist' is some poor beleaguered misguided soul that seems like he couldn't drive himself across the country alone.



But Drummond you should try to examine content, what's the original source.
Sure everyone is Bias some MORE than others, and ..ahh welll
never mind, it seems you've got the motto.

If the new facts don't fit it's just not legit.

it's from a leftwing, so its wrong (i don't even have to read it)
it's wrong (not what i believe) , therefore it's leftwing
you've got a locked coming and going.

[taft2012]

Someone is *REALLY* worried about not being able to replenish his stash of chronic. :laugh:

[revelarts]

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/VswdzWA6T-s?feature=player_detailpage" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

highlights a small portion of the info mentioned by the FBI agent and reporters.

[Drummond]

Drummond If you tell the truth i'll even quote you.

I am well aware of the guardians bias and yours and fox news and the NYTimes and Msnbc and Hannity and Linbaugh and Maddow etc etc.

I guess the difference between us is you just assume the left is ALWAYS wrong, and don't even consider they may have a 1/2 a fact you should even consider. You seem to assume that everything is pure undistiled left propaganda.

But i tend look to see if there are facts in what just about anyone says. And frankly it's rare that news media or the goverment or you or me lie ALL the time. I think all the MSM is like old pravda. but even Pravda had some facts in it.

So i see again in this thread you Dimiss out of hand what you don't agree without with considering the content or the original source. which are the court records and testimony of the FBI agents and informants and "terrorist".

the last item i posted was a link to a radio interview with a Former DEA and FBI agent who worked undercover for 25 years. He says while he was an officer his politics "was too the right of Atilla the Hun". he not only acknowledges the info revealed in the story in the guardian, and the OTHER SOURCES i quote he's says that it's been appeared to him for years that from the news reports that the US terrorism arrest cases have been Entrapment just about every time a report made.

And what got me thinking in this vain on this was not the guradian btw, it was a case YEARS ago called the miami 7,
i just happened to see several of the news reports on this and thught to myself "is this the best they've got., is this the terror threat we should be in mortal fear of?" it was laughable and sad.

the Gov't in the form of Roberto Gonzlaz made statements to the effect that the FBI had stoped a terror plot to blow up the Sears tower in Chicago by alqueda afiliates in Miami.
Ok sounds good right.
until you here the rest of the story.

these 7 jobless nigh on homeless guys where hangin out in in a werehouse and had form a weird religious group, with a mix of christian and muslim ideas. And Fbi "agent" approached them got in their click with gifts and convinced them that'd he had Alqueda connectings could get them money and weapons, he gave them a plan, They wanted the money and thought they could do a deed with alqeada so they took the faux weapons and were busted.

the plan was to blow up the sears towers, they didn't even have bus money to get to Chicago. all there operations money came from the FBI. One of the "terrorist" was said to have real mental issues. and there was a real question if some of these guys even knew what the sears towers was.

It was laughable that our gov't, at the highest level, consider those poor souls a threat to anything but themselves.

I'm sure you'll disagree and say i'm a horrible liberal for using my own judgment and not trusting GWBUSH and the FBI, (they knew secret stuff about them or sumthin)
but what i saw from the gov't and from the mouths of the "terrorist" in early interviews was pathetic. Since then I've been keen to see the "terrorist" and the reports of capture and almost invariable, the FBI has provided the materials, often makes the plan and the 'terrorist' is some poor beleaguered misguided soul that seems like he couldn't drive himself across the country alone.



But Drummond you should try to examine content, what's the original source.
Sure everyone is Bias some MORE than others, and ..ahh welll
never mind, it seems you've got the motto.

If the new facts don't fit it's just not legit.

it's from a leftwing, so its wrong (i don't even have to read it)
it's wrong (not what i believe) , therefore it's leftwing
you've got a locked coming and going.

Revelarts, really .. seriously, now .. are you going to tell me that you aren't loyal to your own biases ? Can you tell me that your thinking, overall, doesn't compare with that of a Left-winger, and that you make arguments designed to promote that brand of thinking ?

Do you know what I have against Left-wing arguments ? That they ARE propagandist, sure. But theirs is propaganda that's meant to skew thinking in their direction, based upon WHATEVER IT WILL TAKE to achieve that end.

The Left has agendas. It has goals, and these are pursued with the aim in mind of achieving control over thoughts, actions, people, autonomies. The Left is interested in seeing what it wants to see, creating what it wants to create .. BUT, by basing all of that upon wish-fulfillment.

WHOSE wish ? Answer .... THOSE WISHING FOR CONTROL OVER OTHERS.

Revelarts, Right wing arguments, goals, may have their element of 'propaganda', but its very nature is the polar opposite of what I've just described. Right wing thoughts and deeds are grounded in realism, in total respect for the individual, and in freedom. We don't aim for control-freaking 'paradises', such as those TYRANNIES meted out by the likes of Stalin, Castro, Chairman Mao. We don't have the arrogance of trying to shape human nature, as the repressions of Communism tried AND FAILED to do.

All of that said, and with particular consideration for the control-freakery aspect of Leftieism, THIS is why it's automatically important to consider the sources of material. Left-wing media publications have agendas. Even IF they print 'truths', to what extent are these 'spun' in order to achieve a preferred outlook ? And to what extent do they even remain fully true ?

I'd much rather not have to apply an anti 'BS' filter to all I read or watch ... or wonder what facts I'm missing, through propagandist design ... facts I NEED in order to be fair in what I conclude.

I submit to you that there is far more basic reason to distrust anything emanating from Left wing sources than Right wing sources. And I suggest to you that those who don't see this, or who refuse to see this, are those to whom the Left-wing propaganda machine has scored a resounding propaganda victory.

[Voted4Reagan]

http://bigrab.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/tin-foil-hat.jpg

[revelarts]

AH , here's the problem Drummond, it's what you call a "brand of thinking".

You try to peg every comment to a "brand of thinking", rather than trying to appraise honestly whether a statement or account is just a fact of reality.

you might want to try and look a facts 1st then make your thinking around the facts rather than brands.

[Voted4Reagan]

AH , here's the problem Drummond, it's what you call a "brand of thinking".

You try to peg every comment to a "brand of thinking", rather than trying to appraise honestly whether a statement or account is just a fact of reality.

you might want to try and look a facts 1st then make your thinking around the facts rather than brands.

Rev, not everything in life is a conspiracy, no matter how much you want them to be...

There's a Black Helicopter that's been following you Rev... We are watching you.

[revelarts]

Rev, not everything in life is a conspiracy, no matter how much you want them to be...

There's a Black Helicopter that's been following you Rev... We are watching you.

:rolleyes: "conspiracy" another Brand of thinking people like to assume for others.

How about reviewing the above facts and commenting on those V4R?
I don't mention conspiracy here, To me it looks like piss poor police work and entrapment used to create the image of hard work "protecting the country".
Around the office and factory floor it's called -look busy the boss is watching-,
Maybe where you work you call it conspiracy.
The real difference from my office to the FBI is, when the FBI does busy work people go to jail over stuff they probably never did.

[Voted4Reagan]

Me thinks the Aliens took REV. for one round too many of Anal Probing.....

[revelarts]

Me thinks the Aliens took REV. for one round too many of Anal Probing.....

just like i thought , you got nothing.

[jimnyc]

Me thinks the Aliens took REV. for one round too many of Anal Probing.....

Don't mistake him for Princess Gabriella! I don't always agree with Mr. Rev, but he's almost always polite, and when he has time, he always tries to reply. Hell, if anything, I yell at him sometimes for replying TOO much. He'll gather 1,000 sites and pieces of "evidence" on the topic and drop it in your lap. :)

[Voted4Reagan]

TRUTHERS and Conspiracy Hacks dont REPLY....

They regurgitate debunked theories over and over until someone listens.

I got no issue with REV.... but Conspiracy theories are a pet peeve of mine.

Those maniacs were all felons and all belong in jail for what they did....

http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?section=news/local&id=6824533

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,520908,00.html

Try those links Rev...

[Thunderknuckles]

Nothing in the OP smells like conspiracy to me. Sounds like an average day for government bureaucrats looking to justify and expand their reach. Just look at the TSA.

Rev, I see the entrapment angle but I also have to question who the hell would agree to take part in a terror plot killing thousands of innocent people. Even if you are down on your luck, that's a pretty drastic thing to get involved with just to earn a few bucks.

[jimnyc]

I got no issue with REV.... but Conspiracy theories are a pet peeve of mine.

Go back through the history of the conspiracy section here. No one is less of a fan about the subject than I!! And while Rev may have some "irregular" stances at time, he doesn't just wear tinfoil and spout crap. He's almost always loaded with links and videos to defend his point. That, and he's a lot more knowledgeable in other subjects too. We let his occasional theories pass through as he's earned his dues, and abuse!

[revelarts]

Nothing in the OP smells like conspiracy to me. Sounds like an average day for government bureaucrats looking to justify and expand their reach. Just look at the TSA.

Rev, I see the entrapment angle but I also have to question who the hell would agree to take part in a terror plot killing thousands of innocent people. Even if you are down on your luck, that's a pretty drastic thing to get involved with just to earn a few bucks.

agreed, some of these folk do have an interest in doing some bad stuff. But they generally do not have the means, the plans or the connections (or intelligence) in most cases is what the reports reveal.

A4R in your 2nd link it says this (red = me. and my bold of the report )


...according to a criminal complaint, Cromitie (the terrorist ) began unknowingly working with an FBI informant, who was acting under law enforcement supervision, in June 2008. He told the government witness that his parents had lived in Afghanistan and he was upset with the ongoing war there, including the deaths of many Muslims in Afghanistan and Pakistan by U.S. military forces.
Cromitie said he wanted to return to Afghanistan and told the informant about how he'd go to "paradise" if he died a martyr, the complaint said.
He also expressed an interest in doing "something to America," according to the complaint.

In October 2008, the informant began meeting with the defendants at a Newburgh house equipped with concealed video and audio equipment, the complaint said.


The confidential informant who broke the case told Cromitie that he was involved with Jaish-e-Mohammed, a Pakistani terrorist group. It is one of several militant groups suspected of having links to Pakistani intelligence. Jaish set up training camps in Afghanistan under the Taliban and several senior operatives were close to Usama bin Laden.

Cromitie expressed interest in joining the group to "do jihad," according to a criminal complaint.

In April 2009, Cromitie, David Williams, Onta Williams and Payen identified the synagogues they wanted to hit and began conducting surveillance of them as well as of the Air National Guard base where they intended to strike military planes with Stinger missiles.

The government witness supplied them with a missile he said he'd obtained from Jaish-e-Mohammed, but instead, it was an FBI-made device that wasn't capable of being fired, according to the complaint. The informant also gave the group inert C-4 explosives...



Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,520908,00.html#ixzz2LTvFrZc5



this is exactly what i'm talking about, the FBI finds some dupe, feeds them a line for months encouraging terror acts then supplies the means and makes the arrest.

the former FBI and DEA agent mentions in his interview that informants are PAID and they are Paid liars. they are known to find somebody to do whatever the cops are looking to bust and will often cajole and con a "suspect" into a crime. the only way to tell what really happened is to review all conversation between the informants and the suspects. Often in the news and in court the jury only hears selected portions.

Are their people that want to hurt americans in a big way. Yep.
But it seems to me 99% of those people will die of old age before they do much more than kick in their TVs. Unless they get a visit from an FBI informant.

Are there some whites who hate Jews and minorities, they want many to die. There are camps across the country with them.
If the FBI found the right ones they might get them to attempt murder after a few months of chatting them up and supplying them with everything they needdon't you think? whats the difference? only the targets.

[taft2012]

How about reviewing the above facts and commenting on those

Like this one?


the FBI has, under the guise of engaging in counterterrorism since 9/11, built a network of more than 15,000 informants whose primary purpose is to infiltrate Muslim communities to create and facilitate phony terrorist plots so that the Bureau can then claim it is winning the war on terror.

Do you seriously believe the FBI doesn't have enough legitimate work to do without having to fabricate "phony terrorist plots?"

That's a "fact"?

No, that's clearly tin foil hat stuff.

[revelarts]

Do you seriously believe the FBI doesn't have enough legitimate work to do without having to fabricate "phony terrorist plots?"

That's a "fact"?

No, that's clearly tin foil hat stuff.[/I][/COLOR]

I believe they have plenty of other things to do.
However the facts show some of them are ginning up terror cases. It's revealed by the news reports, court records and the FBI's own testimony.

sorry you believe the FBI wouldn't do such a thing. Your Belief might be clouding your view of the facts.

[taft2012]

I believe they have plenty of other things to do.
However the facts show some of them are ginning up terror cases. It's revealed by the news reports, court records and the FBI's own testimony.

sorry you believe the FBI wouldn't do such a thing. Your Belief might be clouding your view of the facts.

What you posted said that the FBI has a program, whose primary purpose is to knowingly facilitate phony terrorist attacks to make it look like they're doing something about terrorism.

Until some internal memos are put forth as evidence, your presentations remain tinfoil hat ravings.

Like any other nutbag conspiracy kook, you are, of course, free to believe whatever you want. However, don't present unsubstantiated speculation and whine that we're not responding to your "facts."

[revelarts]

What you posted said that the FBI has a program, whose primary purpose is to knowingly facilitate phony terrorist attacks to make it look like they're doing something about terrorism.
Never said it's a written program. But it seems it is a policy, unwritten maybe. In a small town Mississippi police dept is racism a written policy. probable not. And for All i know they may think they are doing "good work". So they can sleep at night. but the facts show anyone who nots emtional attached, that the police work is thin and reeks of entrapment. Until other officers and higher ups oe congress call them on it probably will go on.

.


Until some internal memos are put forth as evidence, your presentations remain tinfoil hat ravings.
They used to say COINTELPRO (http://vault.fbi.gov/cointel-pro), was conspracy to until finally -decades later- the fbi records came out. And congressional hearings made the FBI CIA etc explain why they had a program of illegal activity. So it's not bigfoot. it's been done before. And the FBI is well known for trying to keep a great reputation and cover up it's faults. for example
Dr. Frederic Whitehurst and the Failed FBI Crime Lab (http://www.whistleblowersblog.org/2012/04/articles/forensic-justice-1/dr-frederic-whitehurst-and-the-failed-fbi-crime-lab/)


So Taft your being Pollyanna if you think it's not happening after you've been made aware of case after case of it.

it might be bigfoot.


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And here's the thing people get wrong about my comments. just because i point out a broken windows and loose floor boards doesn't mean i think the everything about the house is always rotten. there are good people at the FBI as well, may their tribe increase.

[taft2012]

Never said it's a written program. But it seems it is a policy, unwritten maybe.

Not to worry dude. They said the Son of Sam was crazy too, and it turned out that...

Oh well, bad example. Never mind.

[revelarts]

Not to worry dude. They said the Son of Sam was crazy too, and it turned out that...

Oh well, bad example. Never mind.

yeah,
you've got nothing to back your assertions of FBI innocence or best practices in these cases but belief and assumptions.

oh well.

What other names you guys got in your back pocket to call me, for pointing out that the FBI's doing wrong?

[Voted4Reagan]

yeah,
you've got nothing to back your assertions of FBI innocence or best practices in these cases but belief and assumptions.

oh well.

What other names you guys got in your back pocket to call me, for pointing out that the FBI's doing wrong?

Your own sources have ommitted that the 4 men in question were all BLACK MUSLIMS and had converted to Islam while inside the Prisons of NY State.

See, the problem with conspiracy theorists is they tell you PART of the story while omitting important facts in an effort to make you believe there is a coverup going on.

They cant accept simple explanations because they need it to look bigger then it actually is.

"Truthers" - Claim that WTC buildings were brought down by explosives planted by the Federal Government . They blame George Bush for this. But lets look at it this way.

1. Not one person came forward to say they were the ones involved in planting these explosives.

2. The number of people that would have to be involved in a coverup of this magnitude is astronomical. you would need the cooperation and silence of 100's of thousands of people if not millions to cover this up

3. Truthers use Blogs and YOUTube as their basis of "FACTS", they have altered videos and produced elaborate films to show what has happened. Yet as these facts are debunked they come up with newer FACTS that just regurgitate the same thing.

4. To plant explosives inside the WTC and it's other Buildings would take a huge amount of time and would have to be done under the eyes of the NYC Police, PA Police, FBI, FDNY and private security companies that represented all the tenants inside the WTC. Not to mention the security cameras that were on EVERY FLOOR that would have to have been compromised and altered as the people planting the charges entered private offices to access the utility core of the buildings and the Trusses along the outer walls. They would have had to do this so slowly that it would take YEARS to plant all of them and all the while avoiding discovery.... this places the place ment of the charges squarely in the time of the CLINTON administration.. after all Bush had been in office only 9 months. Not enough time to do what "Truthers" claim.

So REV... do you see what we're saying? your sources are weak, non-committal and omit information that would make the story easily debunked. I didnt see anything about the 4 mens religious affiliation anywhere in your article, yet it was well known and reported in all the major papers around NYC and Long Island. Why does your source omit this?

It's easy... They have NOTHING and are trying to manufacture a story... thats all YOU HAVE.. Omission and Conjecture

[taft2012]

yeah,
you've got nothing to back your assertions of FBI innocence or best practices in these cases but belief and assumptions.


If I had the ability to convince people that things that exist only in their imaginations were not real, I would have pursued a career as a mental health professional. So no, there's nothing more I can do at this point to assist you.

[revelarts]

just the record
another old FBI, we found a terrorist case.
<iframe src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/UAg8TRcL1LI?feature=player_embedded" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="360" width="640"></iframe>

would have sent a man to jail with the death penalty , because his finger print looked sorta kinda like the what the bombers might have looked like. NO evidence that the "suspect" was ever in the country at the time but those trixsie terrorist, the FBI KNOWS a terrorist when they see one.

[revelarts]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FQJ3amYX0AQNH3e?format=jpg&name=900x900



Jury Acquits 2 Men Accused of Plotting To Kidnap Michigan Gov. Gretchen Whitmer
Apr 8, 2022 at 3:59 PM


In what should serve as a major blow to the credibility of federal law enforcement agents, a district court jury acquitted two men accused of plotting to kidnap Michigan Gov. Gretchen Whitmer. The jury deadlocked on the charges against two other defendants, and it's not clear whether prosecutors will seek to retry them, according to The New York Times.

Brandon Caserta and Daniel Harris were acquitted on all charges they faced. Adam Fox and Barry Croft will be eligible for retrial.

This is an embarrassing outcome for both the FBI—which had relied on a vast network of informants that were extensively involved in planning and even encouraging the plot—as well as Whitmer herself, who treated the plot with utter seriousness and connected it to former President Donald Trump's irresponsible rhetoric.

In reality, Whitmer was never in actual danger; "Big Dan," the ringleader of the alleged plot, contacted law enforcement early on, and the FBI paid him $54,000 to conduct six months of surveillance on a loose network of militia members who were upset with Whitmer's aggressive COVID-19 lockdown policies. When the group staked out Whitmer's house, it was Big Dan leading the effort—with the FBI's foreknowledge and encouragement.

At the same time, Big Dan's FBI handler, a man named Jayson Chambers, was attempting to start a side business as a security consultant; he thus had every incentive to construct a major domestic terrorism bust that he could take credit for foiling. As The Times reported:


No attack ever took place and no final date for an abduction was set, testimony showed, and the details of the alleged plan sometimes differed from witness to witness. The F.B.I. informant, Dan Chappel, said he believed the group planned to kill Ms. Whitmer, whose handling of the Covid-19 pandemic had infuriated the men. Ty Garbin, the man who earlier pleaded guilty in the case, said he thought the group of men might abandon the governor in a boat in the middle of Lake Michigan. Another man who pleaded guilty, Kaleb Franks, said he had hoped to die in a shootout with the governor's security detail.

"There was no plan to kidnap the governor, and there was no agreement between these four men," Joshua Blanchard, a lawyer for Mr. Croft, said in closing arguments. He said the government tried to conjure up a conspiracy by using a network of informants and undercover agents, and that "without a plan, the snitches needed to make it look like" there was movement toward a plan.

The FBI, of course, has a long history of engaging in entrapment: i.e., inducing people to plan crimes that they had no intention of carrying out. The victims of these prosecutions have often been Muslims, though right-wing groups are also a common target of overzealous law enforcement. It appears that the jury possessed reasonable and well-justified doubt that the there was ever any actual plot to kidnap Whitmer, despite the FBI's attempts to manufacture one.
...
https://reason.com/2022/04/08/gretchen-whitmer-kidnapping-plot-acquittal-fbi/