The scientific research homosexuality thread

[gabosaurus]

WARNING!! MAY BE TOO INTELLECTUAL FOR SOME MEMBERS :cool:

This is a thread for PROOF of homosexuality as a genetic aberation. This is NOT a thread for name calling, mud slinging and personal insults. If you can't back up your statement with ACTUAL SCIENTIFIC PROOF, then don't post anything.

I am a Christian. I believe in God. I have read The Bible.
I am also a graduate psychology student. Scientific research has come a long way since The Bible was compiled in 300 A.D. Humans are no longer sacrificed to "appease God." Menstruating women are not exiled while they are "unclean." A lot of things are not as they once were.
The genetics of homosexuality were initially studied on animals. As much research is. When genetic makeups of fruit flies and various animals were altered in a specific way, the subjects were no longer interested in mating with the opposite sex.
D.F. Swaab found in some post-mortem examinations of homosexual males' brains that a portion of the hypothalamus of the brain was structurally different than a heterosexual brain. The hypothalamus is the portion of the human brain directly related to sexual drive and function. In the homosexual brains examined, a small portion of the hypothalamus, termed the suprachiasmatic nucleus (SCN), was found to be twice the size of its heterosexual counterpart.
Different levels of sperm that implant in a female egg also have been found to produce a different genetic profile. This has been proven to lead to what is now termed "oversexed" males and females. They can become highly sexed, or "non-sexed", which refers to preferring ones own sex, as opposed to the opposite sex.

Remember, this is a research based thread. DO NOT quote scripture. Do not quote "studies" commissioned and undertaken by biased religious group meant to produce a pre-determined outcome.
If you can find an unbiased scientific study that proves homosexuality is not genetic, feel free to post it.

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn6519

http://www.skeptictank.org/gaygene.htm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3735668.stm

http://allpsych.com/journal/homosexuality.html

[stephanie]

WARNING!! MAY BE TOO INTELLECTUAL FOR SOME MEMBERS

Well...... the above sentence sure invites.........DEBATE...:rolleyes:

[82Marine89]

WARNING!! MAY BE TOO INTELLECTUAL FOR SOME MEMBERS

Well...... the above sentence sure invites.........DEBATE...:rolleyes:

Mass debate?

[Psychoblues]

Although you probably scared off most of the believers in the genetic foundation of homosexuality, gabby, by your admonishing post, I am going to kick in anyway.



WARNING!! MAY BE TOO INTELLECTUAL FOR SOME MEMBERS :cool:

This is a thread for PROOF of homosexuality as a genetic aberation. This is NOT a thread for name calling, mud slinging and personal insults. If you can't back up your statement with ACTUAL SCIENTIFIC PROOF, then don't post anything.

I am a Christian. I believe in God. I have read The Bible.
I am also a graduate psychology student. Scientific research has come a long way since The Bible was compiled in 300 A.D. Humans are no longer sacrificed to "appease God." Menstruating women are not exiled while they are "unclean." A lot of things are not as they once were.
The genetics of homosexuality were initially studied on animals. As much research is. When genetic makeups of fruit flies and various animals were altered in a specific way, the subjects were no longer interested in mating with the opposite sex.
D.F. Swaab found in some post-mortem examinations of homosexual males' brains that a portion of the hypothalamus of the brain was structurally different than a heterosexual brain. The hypothalamus is the portion of the human brain directly related to sexual drive and function. In the homosexual brains examined, a small portion of the hypothalamus, termed the suprachiasmatic nucleus (SCN), was found to be twice the size of its heterosexual counterpart.
Different levels of sperm that implant in a female egg also have been found to produce a different genetic profile. This has been proven to lead to what is now termed "oversexed" males and females. They can become highly sexed, or "non-sexed", which refers to preferring ones own sex, as opposed to the opposite sex.

Remember, this is a research based thread. DO NOT quote scripture. Do not quote "studies" commissioned and undertaken by biased religious group meant to produce a pre-determined outcome.
If you can find an unbiased scientific study that proves homosexuality is not genetic, feel free to post it.

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn6519

http://www.skeptictank.org/gaygene.htm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3735668.stm

http://allpsych.com/journal/homosexuality.html

I am a 57 year old straight man that has no clue as to the cause or effect of the homosexual animal. I have known many admitted homosexuals in my military, civilian and political careers. I know they would mostly be very glad to change their propensities and I also know they simply cannot be successful in their attempts to do so.

Anamoly, aberation, whatever you want to call it, homosexuality is very real and simply must be accepted as another of the misunderstood gifts of God. These people, the homosexuals that I do and have known, are not enemies of mine, yours or anyone else's. They ask only for the proper considerations that all of us respect and expect. They are not after our children, our spouses, our neighbors or anyone else to embrace their propensities in sexual matters as their own. In fact, they would prefer to be left alone for the large part.

I have lot's of thoughts and observations about the homosexual communities and I think this is as good a place as any to discuss it. I hope there are a few homosexuals amongst us that will give us their own thoughts on this subject.

[stephanie]

While I agree.....that there is some who are homosexual by Genetic defect-mix up, whatever you want to call it..

I also believe a large majority........is by CHOICE...

And nobody is denying them anything....The majority of people are willing to let it go at that...
They and other's are the one's SHOVING this in our faces as........we are wrong for not accepting it...as normal...

If it was SO normal.......Then why is the population of homosexuals in the United States...only 5%..???

I don't care what they do....But, I am sick of being called names,(bigot, racist, homophobe, denying them their CIVIL RIGHTS)... because I don't see it.........AS NORMAL....

THAT'S ALL......

[Psychoblues]

You killed your own argument when you described "CHOICE". I no more believe that a homosexual has a choice than I believe in Santa Claus.



While I agree.....that there is some who are homosexual by Genetic defect-mix up, whatever you want to call it..

I also believe a large majority........is by CHOICE...

And nobody is denying them anything....The majority of people are willing to let it go at that...
They and other's are the one's SHOVING this in our faces as........we are wrong for not accepting it...as normal...

If it was SO normal.......Then why is the population of homosexuals in the United States...only 5%..???

I don't care what they do....But, I am sick of being called names,(bigot, racist, homophobe, denying them their CIVIL RIGHTS)... because I don't see it.........AS NORMAL....

THAT'S ALL......

Homosexual Choice and Santa Claus are both very popular myths believed by the very young or at least the very ignorant. I have no doubt that homosexuals do not desire their dispositions and subsequent rejections by mostly rabid radicals of the religious persuasions and others that tend to so afraid of them. They are simply what they are. God Bless Them.

[stephanie]

You killed your own argument when you described "CHOICE". I no more believe that a homosexual has a choice than I believe in Santa Claus.




Homosexual Choice and Santa Claus are both very popular myths believed by the very young or at least the very ignorant. I have no doubt that homosexuals do not desire their dispositions and subsequent rejections by mostly rabid radicals of the religious persuasions and others that tend to so afraid of them. They are simply what they are. God Bless Them.


You ruined your argument, when you brought...Santa Claus into it...

No more need be said.....When you all try and convince us..that we're the idiots of not understanding homosexuals..:poke:

[Psychoblues]

My dear, my dear, my dear.




You ruined your argument, when you brought...Santa Claus into it...

No more need be said.....When you all try and convince us..that we're the idiots of not understanding homosexuals..:poke:

You have no clue as to what I was talking about, do you? Santa Claus indeed!!!!!!!

[stephanie]

My dear, my dear, my dear.





You have no clue as to what I was talking about, do you? Santa Claus indeed!!!!!!!

Duhhhh...
I also heard of the Ester Bunny, the Tooth Fairy, and Elvis is still alive..:poke:

[Pale Rider]

This is NOT a thread for name calling, mud slinging and personal insults. If you can't back up your statement with ACTUAL SCIENTIFIC PROOF, then don't post anything.

ROFLMFAO!!! :lol: :laugh: :lmao:

In other words demon girl, you figure you can go anywhere on the board and shit in every single thread you're in, but NO ONE CAN DO IT IN YOUR'S? HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA AH HA HA HA HA!!!

Here's a good one miss jihad... "WHAT LIBERAL HATE SITE DID YOU GET THAT PIECE OF SHIT FROM?" Sound familiar? It should. It's what we always hear from YOU!

[Psychoblues]

Get real or get out is my advise to you, pr.



ROFLMFAO!!! :lol: :laugh: :lmao:

In other words demon girl, you figure you can go anywhere on the board and shit in every single thread you're in, but NO ONE CAN DO IT IN YOUR'S? HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA AH HA HA HA HA!!!

Here's a good one miss jihad... "WHAT LIBERAL HATE SITE DID YOU GET THAT PIECE OF SHIT FROM?" Sound familiar? It should. It's what we always hear from YOU!

The good lord knows you have shat upon many otherwise very good threads with your bullying and loud talking bullshit.

Let this one progress without your nonsensical contributions. We all already know what an idiot that you are.

[Pale Rider]

I am a 57 year old straight man that has no clue as to the cause or effect of the homosexual animal. I have known many admitted homosexuals in my military, civilian and political careers. I know they would mostly be very glad to change their propensities and I also know they simply cannot be successful in their attempts to do so.
57, and you act 15. Many, many homo's have been successfully treated for and cured. It's just to bad there is such a massive effort being lead by the fag and lezbo community to stifle it. This is but one example of people being cured...

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=34943


They ask only for the proper considerations that all of us respect and expect. They are not after our children, our spouses, our neighbors or anyone else to embrace their propensities in sexual matters as their own. In fact, they would prefer to be left alone for the large part.
BULL..... SHIT!
The homosexuals of today want EVERY SINGLE VOICE OF OPPOSITION TO THEIR SICKNESS TO BE SILENCED! They push their agenda harder than most others ever dream of. They push for laws to be passed so that if you say ANYTHING about them, it's HATE SPEACH. They push to have CHILDREN, IN SCHOOLS, taught that they are cutsie and fun, yeah... we're GAY, changing what they call themselves to something different to make themselves sound all warm and fuzzy, when the truth is they're disgusting, perverted and mentally ill. They have their massive, extravaganza parades all dressed up in every type of sicko, perverted crap they can muster without getting arrested, and march down the street parading their perversion IN YOUR FACE. YEAH, THAT'S REALLY WHAT I CALL WANTING TO BE LEFT ALONE.


I have lot's of thoughts and observations about the homosexual communities and I think this is as good a place as any to discuss it. I hope there are a few homosexuals amongst us that will give us their own thoughts on this subject.
I don't. They need to seek help. That's all.

And you people need to stop lying to them and enabling them. You do them a disservice by doing so. They need to be told they're ill, not that what they're doing is all warm and fuzzy and OK. They need treatment, not acceptance.

[Pale Rider]

Get real or get out is my advise to you, pr.

The good lord knows you have shat upon many otherwise very good threads with your bullying and loud talking bullshit.

Let this one progress without your nonsensical contributions. We all already know what an idiot that you are.

When the author of this thread has SHIT in practically EVERY THREAD SHE'S BEEN IN, SHE DOESN'T DESERVE OR HAVE THE RIGHT TO DICTATE HOW THIS ONE IS GOING TO BE, and YOU, you don't have any right to dictate either. Both of you asswipes have done more harm to this board than good. Don't look to the rest of us for any favors.

[Psychoblues]

I didn't come here looking for favors and I don't expect any, pr.



When the author of this thread has SHIT in practically EVERY THREAD SHE'S BEEN IN, SHE DOESN'T DESERVE OR HAVE THE RIGHT TO DICTATE HOW THIS ONE IS GOING TO BE, and YOU, you don't have any right to dictate either. Both of you asswipes have done more harm to this board than good. Don't look to the rest of us for any favors.

Chill, just a littlle, and respond to the post as administered by the author.

Are you too stupid to do that or are you just too adversely indoctrinated to have the ability?

So far, you ain't making your case.

[stephanie]

I didn't come here looking for favors and I don't expect any, pr.




Chill, just a little, and respond to the post as administered by the author.

Are you too stupid to do that or are you just too adversely indoctrinated to have the ability?

So far, you ain't making your case.

What the hell does it matter.......

When people here do voice their feeling and opinions on it...

We're just told were idiots, homophobes, racist, bigots, intolerable....

So, really why the fuck bother????

I gave my honest opinion on how I felt above, and it was just brushed aside, as if I an a fucking idiot, who knows nothing......So......why bother...

[Psychoblues]

Yeah, and I am just a banana hanging in a bunch on a tree.



What the hell does it matter.......

When people here do voice their feeling and opinions on it...

We're just told were idiots, homophobes, racist, bigots, intolerable....

So, really why the fuck bother????

I gave my honest opinion on how I felt above, and it was just brushed aside, as if I an a fucking idiot, who knows nothing......So......why bother...

Give it a damn or give it up. That is your choice, not mine. I have been condemned and made fun of from the very day I signed on to even the old board. Shake it off like a duck out of the lake, staphy. And don't ever use again any sympathy ploy to elicit compassion from me. You have already burned that candle.

[stephanie]

Yeah, and I am just a banana hanging in a bunch on a tree.




Give it a damn or give it up. That is your choice, not mine. I have been condemned and made fun of from the very day I signed on to even the old board. Shake it off like a duck out of the lake, staphy. And don't ever use again any sympathy ploy to elicit compassion from me. You have already burned that candle.


I've had with you.......tonight...

http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m268/alaskamomma/52007246-L.jpg

Good nite........my friend....:laugh2:

[Psychoblues]

Don't let your weakness exacerbate your tenacity, staphy.


I've had with you.......tonight...

http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m268/alaskamomma/52007246-L.jpg

Good nite........my friend....:laugh2:

Meow!!!!!!!!!!

[glockmail]

.....http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn6519



Mothers of gay men produced an average of 2.7 babies compared with 2.3 born to mothers of straight men. And maternal aunts of gay men had 2.0 babies compared with 1.5 born to the maternal aunts of straight men.

“This is a novel finding," says Simon LeVay, a neuroscientist and commentator on sexuality at Stanford University in California. “We think of it as genes for ‘male homosexuality’, but it might really be genes for sexual attraction to men. These could predispose men towards homosexuality and women towards ‘hyper-heterosexuality’, causing women to have more sex with men and thus have more offspring.”


That's quite a stretch for the "commentator on sexuality" to say that queer is genetic simply because mothers of queers have more babies. That does not appear to be the findings of the actual researchers.

[glockmail]

....http://www.skeptictank.org/gaygene.htm
.....


The scientists say they transplanted a single gene into the flies that caused them to display homosexual behavior. And that's very interesting, they assert, because a related gene exists in human beings, although there is no evidence yet that the human gene has an effect on sexual preference.

1. What scientist transplanted the first gay gene into humans back 5000 years ago? Oops- didn't have gene splicing back then.
2. A "related gene"? One change in a molecule and it affects its behaivior.
3. "there is no evidence yet that the human gene has an effect on sexual preference".

[glockmail]

....
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3735668.stm

....

This is more comment on your first study.
......

Scientists doing DNA studies on homosexual brothers pinpointed 'culprit' genetic material to a region of the X chromosome that mothers pass on to their offspring.


But other researchers in the US have not been able to replicate these findings.


The ability for independent scientists to reproduce the results is a key element in proving a scientific relationship. Therefore the study is bull.

[glockmail]

.....
http://allpsych.com/journal/homosexuality.html



We have examined many causes for homosexuality in the preceding pages, both biological and social. And although an interesting topic of debate, no one theory or experiment leads to a definitive answer. ....

In other words: no gay gene proven.

[darin]

I am a Christian. I believe in God. I have read The Bible.


I'm sorry, but Christians believe in what Christ said. Christians believe the Bible. If you 'think' you are a christian, yet refuse God's CLEAR instruction on what behaviours and attitudes to avoid, you claim christ in vain.

[Monkeybone]

what about the hypothalmus on alive homosexuals? or is it oversized because gay people are a little 'looser' when it comes to who and how many ppl they can get with?

[gabosaurus]

I believe it is sad that, from all the responses so far, only Glockmail has been able to supply responses derived from EDUCATED SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH.
I didn't expect an intelligent response from Pale, who I suspect never finished high school. I am disappointed that no one else could counter my arguments.

Yes, the Bible says homosexuality is wrong. The Bible says that a LOT of things are wrong. Please point out the passage in the Bible stating that homosexuality is a choice.
You might as well say that birth defects are a choice. Perhaps MS or lung cancer are a choice.

God said to "love thy neighbor." Many of you defy that edict on a daily basis. Why are you defying God's personal instructions? Perhaps we should lump you in with the homosexuals.

The thread remains. Put up or shut up.

Thanks to Glockmail, by the way. At least I got through to someone.

[darin]

I believe it is sad that, from all the responses so far, only Glockmail has been able to supply responses derived from EDUCATED SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH.
I didn't expect an intelligent response from Pale, who I suspect never finished high school. I am disappointed that no one else could counter my arguments.

Yes, the Bible says homosexuality is wrong. The Bible says that a LOT of things are wrong. Please point out the passage in the Bible stating that homosexuality is a choice.
You might as well say that birth defects are a choice. Perhaps MS or lung cancer are a choice.

God said to "love thy neighbor." Many of you defy that edict on a daily basis. Why are you defying God's personal instructions? Perhaps we should lump you in with the homosexuals.

The thread remains. Put up or shut up.

Thanks to Glockmail, by the way. At least I got through to someone.

You are such a hypocrite - you sit there and preach against people for 'not loving their neighbor' yet you rail and cuss and flame users DAILY. Nobody who knows Christ HATES homosexUALS. Get it through your head; the concept that Christians are HELPING Homosexuals when they condemn homosexual behaviour - along with lying, cheating, killing, stealing, etc.

[darin]

what about the hypothalmus on alive homosexuals? or is it oversized because gay people are a little 'looser' when it comes to who and how many ppl they can get with?


The most famous of all the "gay brain" studies must surely be the research of Simon LeVay, who claimed that he discovered a modest but significant difference in the size of an already tiny section of the brain, the hypothalamus, in a group of dead straight and gay men. His 1993 book The Sexual Brain is an effort at popularizing his theory that sexuality in all its forms is ultimately attributable to physical structures of our brains, everything from mere sexual orientation to preferences for specific kinds of sexual acts and positions. The many serious flaws in LeVay's research and conclusions have been pointed out repeatedly, as have the tentative and problematic nature of the other work that has been done on identifying the biological causes of homosexuality. For example, there was no way to tell from the brains LeVay studied whether the differences in brain structure were the cause or the effect of homosexual behavior. Moreover, there was no verifiable way to determine the men's actual sexual behavior, since they were dead by the time the research was done — the assumption was simply made that the ones who died from HIV infection were homosexuals.

http://bad.eserver.org/issues/1994/14/sartelle.html

[Monkeybone]

thank you DMP

and for the flies...they had to 'adjust' them? so it was something wrong that could be fixed? and for the evolution ppl...how is homosexuality helping?

[gabosaurus]

I am not the one castigating the homosexual lifestyle. Nor am I the one who makes post after post defiling blacks, Mexicans and Muslims. I make an attempt to understand all people. Instead of throwing an open hate blanket over all of them.

The assumption that all who die from HIV are homosexuals is wrong. HIV can be contracted from blood transfusions and shared needles, along with exchange of bodily fluids with an infected person. This has led to an alarming rise in the number of straight people dying from HIV.

[darin]

I am not the one castigating the homosexual lifestyle.

But you are the person claiming Christianity, yet continuously flaming, spewing hatred, intolerance and vile against those with whom you disagree. Irony.

GOD castigates the homosexual lifestyle. He's VERY clear in the Bible. Are you a buffet-style Christian? Be careful about that.

[Doniston]

Although you probably scared off most of the believers in the genetic foundation of homosexuality, gabby, by your admonishing post, I am going to kick in anyway.




I am a 57 year old straight man that has no clue as to the cause or effect of the homosexual animal. I have known many admitted homosexuals in my military, civilian and political careers. I know they would mostly be very glad to change their propensities and I also know they simply cannot be successful in their attempts to do so.

Anamoly, aberation, whatever you want to call it, homosexuality is very real and simply must be accepted as another of the misunderstood gifts of God. These people, the homosexuals that I do and have known, are not enemies of mine, yours or anyone else's. They ask only for the proper considerations that all of us respect and expect. They are not after our children, our spouses, our neighbors or anyone else to embrace their propensities in sexual matters as their own. In fact, they would prefer to be left alone for the large part.

I have lot's of thoughts and observations about the homosexual communities and I think this is as good a place as any to discuss it. I hope there are a few homosexuals amongst us that will give us their own thoughts on this subject.

Well stated, any I agree in general. I too have known many Homosexuals. and unless they flaunt it, It is simply live and let live. I also don't flaunt the fact that I am Hetro.

[Doniston]

If it was SO normal.......Then why is the population of homosexuals in the United States...only 5%..???

I don't care what they do....But, I am sick of being called names,(bigot, racist, homophobe, denying them their CIVIL RIGHTS)... because I don't see it.........AS NORMAL....

THAT'S ALL...... If it is so normal, why are there si very few men that are over seven feet tall, or that are redhaired, or dwarfs. These are not AVERAGE, but they ARE normal.

You have every right to your opinion, but rights are not based on opinions, but on actuality. I said in a prior post that I do not flaunt the fact that I am Hetro. can you say the same?? If not, can you understand Why you are called names???

[Doniston]

I believe it is sad that, from all the responses so far, only Glockmail has been able to supply responses derived from EDUCATED SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH.
I didn't expect an intelligent response from Pale, who I suspect never finished high school. I am disappointed that no one else could counter my arguments.

Yes, the Bible says homosexuality is wrong. The Bible says that a LOT of things are wrong. Please point out the passage in the Bible stating that homosexuality is a choice.
You might as well say that birth defects are a choice. Perhaps MS or lung cancer are a choice.

God said to "love thy neighbor." Many of you defy that edict on a daily basis. Why are you defying God's personal instructions? Perhaps we should lump you in with the homosexuals.

The thread remains. Put up or shut up.

Thanks to Glockmail, by the way. At least I got through to someone.

Do you realize that science is no more, no less, that the Opinions of persons who have studied a specific subject? That does not make them automatically right, thus I tend to discount science in favor of common sense. there is nothing scientific in that, but often much more reliable. Your original selectivity was somewhat "Off the wall" (Or I would never have responded.)

[darin]

If it is so normal, why are there si very few men that are over seven feet tall, or that are redhaired, or dwarfs. These are not AVERAGE, but they ARE normal.

You have every right to your opinion, but rights are not based on opinions, but on actuality. I said in a prior post that I do not flaunt the fact that I am Hetro. can you say the same?? If not, can you understand Why you are called names???


They are not 'normal' - 7-footers are ABNORMAL. They happen, sure...but all the attributes in your list of 'normal' things are physical traits - NOT something associated with BEHAVIOUR.

Again - Homosexuality is ONLY behaviour-driven. When one feels URGES they never act upon, they are NOT homosexuals.

[Doniston]

They are not 'normal' - 7-footers are ABNORMAL. They happen, sure...but all the attributes in your list of 'normal' things are physical traits - NOT something associated with BEHAVIOUR.

Again - Homosexuality is ONLY behaviour-driven. When one feels URGES they never act upon, they are NOT homosexuals. That of course is YOUR opinion. it certainly isn't mine.

True, homosexuality is usually a behaviour, but not always. It is psychological as well as a phisical trait in some individuals, And they can definitely be psychologically a homosexual without acting upon those urges. Many homosexuals are married to woman, and have children

[Monkeybone]

so it is a choice then. just like depression. yes, there are times when brain chemistry is all gajubled up, but when you lay around feeling sorry for yourself it ain't helping anything.

[darin]

That of course is YOUR opinion. it certainly isn't mine.

True, homosexuality is usually a behaviour, but not always. It is psychological as well as a phisical trait in some individuals, And they can definitely be psychologically a homosexual without acting upon those urges. Many homosexuals are married to woman, and have children

But my opinion is right. It's really VERY VERY VERY Simple. It's what we DO which defines us.

[Pale Rider]

I didn't come here looking for favors and I don't expect any, pr.
You and your homo enabling board partner in bashing are asking people to play nice in YOUR thread, when you DON'T in someone else's. THAT is asking a FAVOR!

You drink your breakfast too?


Chill, just a littlle, and respond to the post as administered by the author.
Again, you have no right, or does gabby jihad, to ask favors.


Are you too stupid to do that or are you just too adversely indoctrinated to have the ability?

So far, you ain't making your case.
My point is crystal clear. Your ignorant act is about as transparent as your bottle of vodka.

Sometimes you'd truely be helping yourself to just shut the fuck up.

[Pale Rider]

I didn't expect an intelligent response from Pale, who I suspect never finished high school. I am disappointed that no one else could counter my arguments.

The thread remains. Put up or shut up.

Your "suspicions" about my education are wrong. I've had more education past high school than you've had, and it shows. But insulting me was par for the course for you, miss python.

Start reading. Every bit of this debunks that pathetic article you posted...

http://web.archive.org/web/20040301111514/staffweb.lib.uiowa.edu/ktonella/oob/features/Biology.htm

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2001/02/13/MN87077.DTL

http://eserver.org/gender/exploding-the-gene-myth.html

http://web.archive.org/web/20031231202804/http://www.geneletter.com/archives/homosexuality.html

http://web.archive.org/web/20050313125819/www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/assault/genetics/biochallenge.html

http://www.wits.ac.za/bioethics/orient.htm

http://web.archive.org/web/20030730063530/www.anglicanmedia.com.au/old/july99/Culture.html

http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a371fcd675dbd.htm

http://cas.bellarmine.edu/tietjen/Human%20Nature%20S%201999/study_questions_gene_influence_o.htm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_325000/325979.stm

http://web.archive.org/web/20021221022605/http://www.academicpress.com/inscight/04221999/grapha.htm

http://web.archive.org/web/20020608120322/http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/news/nation-world/html98/gayy_19990423.html

[CockySOB]

The proper question is not whether homosexual tendencies are based in biochemistry, genetics or choice. The proper question should be if homosexuality is detrimental to the individual and/or to society. There are MANY biochemical and genetic conditions which have a direct, negative impact on both the individual and society, and we as a society have determined that individuals with such conditions need treatment for their own health and for the health of the society.

Personally, I have no doubt but what genetic and biochemical factors play a role in what we as individuals are predisposed to. But just because something is "naturally occurring" does NOT automatically equate to it being good for the individual or society.

[Monkeybone]

lava is naturally occuring

[darin]

lava is naturally occurring

As is snake venom and poison ivy. ;)

[OCA]

Cancer is naturally occuring, we of course try to limit it.

Its besides the point though, queerness is obviously a choice because everyone including queers knows that its wrong.

[OCA]

Your "suspicions" about my education are wrong. I've had more education past high school than you've had, and it shows. But insulting me was par for the course for you, miss python.

Start reading. Every bit of this debunks that pathetic article you posted...

http://web.archive.org/web/20040301111514/staffweb.lib.uiowa.edu/ktonella/oob/features/Biology.htm

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2001/02/13/MN87077.DTL

http://eserver.org/gender/exploding-the-gene-myth.html

http://web.archive.org/web/20031231202804/http://www.geneletter.com/archives/homosexuality.html

http://web.archive.org/web/20050313125819/www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/assault/genetics/biochallenge.html

http://www.wits.ac.za/bioethics/orient.htm

http://web.archive.org/web/20030730063530/www.anglicanmedia.com.au/old/july99/Culture.html

http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a371fcd675dbd.htm

http://cas.bellarmine.edu/tietjen/Human%20Nature%20S%201999/study_questions_gene_influence_o.htm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_325000/325979.stm

http://web.archive.org/web/20021221022605/http://www.academicpress.com/inscight/04221999/grapha.htm

http://web.archive.org/web/20020608120322/http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/news/nation-world/html98/gayy_19990423.html


Fucking excellent Pale!

I was just about to go on the attack and post a shitload of links debunking this birth crap but hell you already posted some of them that I was gonna post.

Game over.

Homosexuals want us all to buy the lie, but the price is wrong.

[OCA]

I am not the one castigating the homosexual lifestyle. Nor am I the one who makes post after post defiling blacks, Mexicans and Muslims. I make an attempt to understand all people. Instead of throwing an open hate blanket over all of them.

The assumption that all who die from HIV are homosexuals is wrong. HIV can be contracted from blood transfusions and shared needles, along with exchange of bodily fluids with an infected person. This has led to an alarming rise in the number of straight people dying from HIV.

Who defiles Blacks,Mexicans and Muslims?

I know I know, you are just throwing shit out there for shock value and in the hopes that something sticks. Its always been your style honey.

DK sucked, DRI kicked ass!

[OCA]

I am not the one castigating the homosexual lifestyle. Nor am I the one who makes post after post defiling blacks, Mexicans and Muslims. I make an attempt to understand all people. Instead of throwing an open hate blanket over all of them.

The assumption that all who die from HIV are homosexuals is wrong. HIV can be contracted from blood transfusions and shared needles, along with exchange of bodily fluids with an infected person. This has led to an alarming rise in the number of straight people dying from HIV.

Forgot also, how do you think HIV got into the blood supply in the 1st place and into the "needle" community?

[Monkeybone]

i thought it was when someone um..had 'relations' with a monkey. and they were from Canada...

[Missileman]

They are not 'normal' - 7-footers are ABNORMAL. They happen, sure...but all the attributes in your list of 'normal' things are physical traits - NOT something associated with BEHAVIOUR.

Again - Homosexuality is ONLY behaviour-driven. When one feels URGES they never act upon, they are NOT homosexuals.

Homosexuality is about the inclination. Without it, there wouldn't be a behavior. Whether acted upon or not, the urge defines the orientation.

[darin]

Homosexuality is about the inclination. Without it, there wouldn't be a behavior. Whether acted upon or not, the urge defines the orientation.

Am I a murderer? Am I a thief? I've certainly had the urge to do both.

[Hagbard Celine]

Forgot also, how do you think HIV got into the blood supply in the 1st place and into the "needle" community?

HIV was communicated to humans through the consumption of primates in Africa. It has nothing to do with homos except that butt sex is one of many ways to spread it.

[Missileman]

Your "suspicions" about my education are wrong. I've had more education past high school than you've had, and it shows. But insulting me was par for the course for you, miss python.

Start reading. Every bit of this debunks that pathetic article you posted...

http://web.archive.org/web/20040301111514/staffweb.lib.uiowa.edu/ktonella/oob/features/Biology.htm

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2001/02/13/MN87077.DTL

http://eserver.org/gender/exploding-the-gene-myth.html

http://web.archive.org/web/20031231202804/http://www.geneletter.com/archives/homosexuality.html

http://web.archive.org/web/20050313125819/www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/assault/genetics/biochallenge.html

http://www.wits.ac.za/bioethics/orient.htm

http://web.archive.org/web/20030730063530/www.anglicanmedia.com.au/old/july99/Culture.html

http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a371fcd675dbd.htm

http://cas.bellarmine.edu/tietjen/Human%20Nature%20S%201999/study_questions_gene_influence_o.htm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_325000/325979.stm

http://web.archive.org/web/20021221022605/http://www.academicpress.com/inscight/04221999/grapha.htm

http://web.archive.org/web/20020608120322/http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/news/nation-world/html98/gayy_19990423.html

I love it when someone posts a bunch of stuff without actually reading it first...:laugh2:

Dig through all of these posts and quote one of them that claims homosexuality is DEFINITELY NOT genetic or biological. If this is supposed to be your proof that homosexuality is a choice, you missed the mark.

[Missileman]

Am I a murderer? Am I a thief? I've certainly had the urge to do both.

Are you a homosexual? I've never had that urge...have you?

[Hagbard Celine]

Are you a homosexual? I've never had that urge...have you?

No, but I HAVE had the urge to be...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v107/TheJournalist/Picons/fabulous.jpg

[Missileman]

Am I a murderer? Am I a thief? I've certainly had the urge to do both.

Would you kill or steal without the urge to do so?

[Missileman]

No, but I HAVE had the urge to be...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v107/TheJournalist/Picons/fabulous.jpg

Okay, you're fabulous! :laugh2:

[darin]

Are you a homosexual? I've never had that urge...have you? Would you kill or steal without the urge to do so?

No - I've had no homosexual urges. I've also done no homosexual acts. I've not murdered, so I'm not a murderer. See how that works?

The URGE does not define the problem. The URGE is a symptom of a problem. We can learn to adjust or control urges when the urge is something harmful and destructive - like inappropriate violence, theft, or homosexual conduct.

[Missileman]

No - I've had no homosexual urges. I've also done no homosexual acts. I've not murdered, so I'm not a murderer. See how that works?

The URGE does not define the problem. The URGE is a symptom of a problem. We can learn to adjust or control urges when the urge is something harmful and destructive - like inappropriate violence, theft, or homosexual conduct.

Without the urge, there is NO BEHAVIOR...see how THAT works?

[Hagbard Celine]

No - I've had no homosexual urges. I've also done no homosexual acts. I've not murdered, so I'm not a murderer. See how that works?

The URGE does not define the problem. The URGE is a symptom of a problem. We can learn to adjust or control urges when the urge is something harmful and destructive - like inappropriate violence, theft, or homosexual conduct.

I think many, if not most gays would tell you that they don't consider their "urges" to be gay harmful and destructive. In fact, I'm quite sure most of them would tell you that listening to those urges and living them out in the open have made them much happier people. :dunno:

[nevadamedic]

Who banned Psyco? I like to send you some rep points.

[darin]

Without the urge, there is NO BEHAVIOR...see how THAT works?

In spite of the Urge, no behaviour happens. See how THAT works? ;)

[darin]

I think many, if not most gays would tell you that they don't consider their "urges" to be gay harmful and destructive.


...as would alcoholics...maybe? Morbidly Obese....Perhaps?....Mentally Ill persons?....

Whether they consider their behaviour destructive or not doesn't change the fact it IS. I could give you buckets of stats, but, being psychic I know what would happen - You'd absolutely ignore the raw data to point fingers at the source; id est, you'd ignore the data.

[Hagbard Celine]

...as would alcoholics...maybe? Morbidly Obese....Perhaps?....Mentally Ill persons?....

Whether they consider their behaviour destructive or not doesn't change the fact it IS. I could give you buckets of stats, but, being psychic I know what would happen - You'd absolutely ignore the raw data to point fingers at the source; id est, you'd ignore the data.
Being happy and loving who you want to love isn't destructive behavior in my book. What's destructive is when others rebuke, ostracize, browbeat, threaten and ignore.

I think gays would find what you said comparing them to alcoholics, morbidly obese and mentally ill persons extremely insulting.

[Pale Rider]

Without the urge, there is NO BEHAVIOR...see how THAT works?

But it's a conscience "choice". You do things your whole life simply because you've had the "urge" to. But I'm sure that there's many, MANY instances through your life where you did NOT act upon those urges because you knew they were WRONG.

SEE HOW THAT WORKS?

And every one of those links debunked the argument that homosexuality is genetic. PLEASE read before you spew crap.

[Missileman]

And every one of those links debunked the argument that homosexuality is genetic. PLEASE read before you spew crap.

You need to go read them yourself and come back to admit you're wrong. I shouldn't have to go cut and paste it for you in order for you to admit it.

[Pale Rider]

You need to go read them yourself and come back to admit you're wrong. I shouldn't have to go cut and paste it for you in order for you to admit it.

Mm, I know from experience that to argue with about fags, I may as well go outside and beat my head against the concete. You're way out there in left field on this, and not worth arguing with. You make no sense.

[CockySOB]

Homosexuality is about the inclination. Without it, there wouldn't be a behavior. Whether acted upon or not, the urge defines the orientation.

No, the ACTION defines the orientation. The urge may be symptomatic of the action, but if we allow people to say "I felt like it" as justification, then we are acquiescing our free will and higher thought processes.

[darin]

Being happy and loving who you want to love isn't destructive behavior in my book.

WHY do you people DO that??? OMG...You guys worship at the alter of Logical Fallacy when it comes to defending your stated beliefs.

:puke3: :puke3: :puke3: :puke3:

[CockySOB]

Without the urge, there is NO BEHAVIOR...see how THAT works?

But until someone can clearly define what causes this urge in the individual, we cannot say anything about the urge, only the action taken.

[Missileman]

Mm, I know from experience that to argue with about fags, I may as well go outside and beat my head against the concete. You're way out there in left field on this, and not worth arguing with. You make no sense.

If you insist!

From: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2001/02/13/MN87077.DTL


The bottom line is that behaviors and mental illnesses have "much more complex (causes) than researchers had imagined," Beckwith concludes. "There are probably numerous genes in each individual that play a role."

Yep...this debunks a genetic cause for behaviors! :rolleyes:

From: http://web.archive.org/web/20031231202804/http://www.geneletter.com/archives/homosexuality.html


No conclusions can be drawn from studies relating genetics to sexual orientation, according to an October 30, 1996 panel at the American Society of Human Genetics (ASHG) annual meetings in San Francisco.

Well that's definitive! :rolleyes:

From: http://web.archive.org/web/20050313125819/www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/assault/genetics/biochallenge.html


The salient question about biology and sexual orientation is not whether biology is involved but how it is involved. All psychological phenomena are ultimately biological.

So's this! :rolleyes:

From: http://www.wits.ac.za/bioethics/orient.htm


This finding underscores how little we know about the origins of sexual orientation.

This debunks what exactly? :poke:

From: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/325979.stm


"These results do not preclude the possibility of detectable gene effects elsewhere in the genome."

More of the same...getting the picture yet? :poke:

From: http://web.archive.org/web/20020608120322/http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/news/nation-world/html98/gayy_19990423.html


The term "gay gene" is misleading, scientists say, because there are likely to be many subtle genetic influences on sexual orientation.


All in all PR, if you proffered these links as evidence FOR choice and AGAINST biology, then you need a refresher in reading comprehension.

I'm still waiting for the link to the study that definitively claims homosexuality is a choice!

[Missileman]

No, the ACTION defines the orientation. The urge may be symptomatic of the action, but if we allow people to say "I felt like it" as justification, then we are acquiescing our free will and higher thought processes.

I disagree. You've got cause and effect backwards. Without the urge, the ACTION never occurs. The ACTION is symptomatic of the urge. The question is what causes the urge.

[OCA]

If you insist!

From: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2001/02/13/MN87077.DTL



Yep...this debunks a genetic cause for behaviors! :rolleyes:

From: http://web.archive.org/web/20031231202804/http://www.geneletter.com/archives/homosexuality.html



Well that's definitive! :rolleyes:

From: http://web.archive.org/web/20050313125819/www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/assault/genetics/biochallenge.html



So's this! :rolleyes:

From: http://www.wits.ac.za/bioethics/orient.htm



This debunks what exactly? :poke:

From: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/325979.stm



More of the same...getting the picture yet? :poke:

From: http://web.archive.org/web/20020608120322/http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/news/nation-world/html98/gayy_19990423.html




All in all PR, if you proffered these links as evidence FOR choice and AGAINST biology, then you need a refresher in reading comprehension.

I'm still waiting for the link to the study that definitively claims homosexuality is a choice!


Any basic biology course proves choice.

[glockmail]

.......

Thanks to Glockmail, by the way. At least I got through to someone.

Thanks, but I debuked every one of your arguments.

[glockmail]

Homosexuality is about the inclination. Without it, there wouldn't be a behavior. Whether acted upon or not, the urge defines the orientation.


Am I a murderer? Am I a thief? I've certainly had the urge to do both.

pwned.

[glockmail]

.....
I'm still waiting for the link to the study that definitively claims homosexuality is a choice!

None of your analysis debunks the conventional wisdom that queerness is a choice. Nice effort though.

[CockySOB]

I disagree. You've got cause and effect backwards. Without the urge, the ACTION never occurs. The ACTION is symptomatic of the urge. The question is what causes the urge.

No. The question is "should the 'urge' be treated as a disease or ailment?" It is immaterial whether the urge is genetic or biochemical in nature. The real issue should be whether ACTING on such an urge has negative consequences for the individual and/or society at large.

Are you claiming that humans are unable to control their reaction to "urges?" It certainly seems that way to me.

[Missileman]

None of your analysis debunks the conventional wisdom that queerness is a choice. Nice effort though.

IOW, you can't back up your opinion with anything.

[Missileman]

No. The question is "should the 'urge' be treated as a disease or ailment?" It is immaterial whether the urge is genetic or biochemical in nature. The real issue should be whether ACTING on such an urge has negative consequences for the individual and/or society at large.

Are you prepared to "treat as a disease" every activity under the sun that has negative consequences to individuals and/or society? Should we enact legislation to force abstinence from these activities?


Are you claiming that humans are unable to control their reaction to "urges?" It certainly seems that way to me.

When it comes to something as primal as sex, I'm not sure. Noone is demanding that you abstain from an interpersonal relationship with the person you are attracted to. Noone is demanding that you engage in sex opposite of your orientation if you wish to have sex.

[loosecannon]

The ability for independent scientists to reproduce the results is a key element in proving a scientific relationship. Therefore the study is bull.


The ability to repeatably reproduce the results proves the methodology of the experiment much more than the principle involved.

Even if the experiement can be repeated 40 times/day /for years the principal could be in error.

[loosecannon]

None of your analysis debunks the conventional wisdom that queerness is a choice. Nice effort though.

Conventional wisdom is about as meaningful as tits on a Steer.

IOW There is absolutely no rational reason to decide that Gayness is a choice until it is proven or at least a perponderance of the evidence suports that theory.

Meanwhile is hetro a choice?

Is greed a choice?

Is conservatism a choice?

Are gays therefore conservative?

Are Elephants therefore gay?

Does the perponderance of the evidence suggest that ANY proclivity is strictly a choice driven phenom? (NO actually) (so elephants probably aren't all gay republicans with learning disabilities)

[Missileman]

pwned.

Do you really want to argue that people are choosing to engage in homosexual sex without the urge to do so or are you just being an ignorant ass? Or maybe you've abandoned your courtship of PR and have set your sights on DMP? :poke:

[Pale Rider]

Conventional wisdom is about as meaningful as tits on a Steer.

IOW There is absolutely no rational reason to decide that Gayness is a choice until it is proven or at least a perponderance of the evidence suports that theory.

Meanwhile is hetro a choice?

Is greed a choice?

Is conservatism a choice?

Are gays therefore conservative?

Are Elephants therefore gay?

Does the perponderance of the evidence suggest that ANY proclivity is strictly a choice driven phenom? (NO actually) (so elephants probably aren't all gay republicans with learning disabilities)


Hey aaahhh loose... you feel the need to do this? :bang3: :laugh:

[glockmail]

IOW, you can't back up your opinion with anything. Just the science that you quoted.

[glockmail]

The ability to repeatably reproduce the results proves the methodology of the experiment much more than the principle involved.

Even if the experiement can be repeated 40 times/day /for years the principal could be in error. as the results can not be repeated elsewhere, as admitted in the summary quoted, the premise is debunked. Kaput.

And thanks for the neg rep for me being scientific- chump. :fu:

[glockmail]

Conventional wisdom is about as meaningful as tits on a Steer.

IOW There is absolutely no rational reason to decide that Gayness is a choice until it is proven or at least a perponderance of the evidence suports that theory.
....

Lets look at the recent history of political correctness about queers:

1960's: fags
1970's: fag is now a bad word, let's use "queer".
1980's: queer makes us sound different than normal people, so let's use "sexual preference"
1990's: If we want special rights our queerness can't be seen as a choice. Let's use "sexual orientation".

The 1980's politically correct definition, that queers themselves coined, proves that queers have always known the obvious: its their choice.

It is therefore up to queers and their enablers to prove otherwise. It's not up to us normals.

[Missileman]

Just the science that you quoted.

Not one of them concluded that homosexuality is a choice. That hardly makes your case. So far, you haven't even offered reasonable doubt.

[glockmail]

Not one of them concluded that homosexuality is a choice. That hardly makes your case. So far, you haven't even offered reasonable doubt. Not one of them concluded that homosexuality is genetic. That hardly makes your case. So far, you haven't even offered reasonable doubt. :pee:

[Doniston]

Lets look at the recent history of political correctness about queers:

1960's: fags
1970's: fag is now a bad word, let's use "queer".
1980's: queer makes us sound different than normal people, so let's use "sexual preference"
1990's: If we want special rights our queerness can't be seen as a choice. Let's use "sexual orientation".

The 1980's politically correct definition, that queers themselves coined, proves that queers have always known the obvious: its their choice.

It is therefore up to queers and their enablers to prove otherwise. It's not up to us normals. Your history is very faulty. I was confronted by a "QUEER in the forties who was CALLED a queer. Fags (word Came out later, but about the same time). Gay is the newest approach, which when I was a kid, meant happy and carefree. and the closest approach to honosexual by that description, were the "Gay-Blades", of the 17th and 18th centuries. (which were really effemininity)

[Pale Rider]

Your history is very faulty. I was confronted by a "QUEER in the forties who was CALLED a queer. Fags (word Came out later, but about the same time). Gay is the newest approach, which when I was a kid, meant happy and carefree. and the closest approach to honosexual by that description, were the "Gay-Blades", of the 17th and 18th centuries. (which were really effemininity)

What's a honosexual?

[Doniston]

What's a honosexual? a typo.

[glockmail]

Your history is very faulty. I was confronted by a "QUEER in the forties who was CALLED a queer. Fags (word Came out later, but about the same time). Gay is the newest approach, which when I was a kid, meant happy and carefree. and the closest approach to honosexual by that description, were the "Gay-Blades", of the 17th and 18th centuries. (which were really effemininity) Mine's not faulty, I simply chose to start in the 60's, and merely to prove my point that even queers now queerness is a choice. If you want to expand on it, Pops, knock youself out.

[Doniston]

Mine's not faulty, I simply chose to start in the 60's, and merely to prove my point that even queers now queerness is a choice. If you want to expand on it, Pops, knock youself out. But you started with false assumptions. and (not to be picky, but to understand) what words did you leave out of the above???

[glockmail]

But you started with false assumptions. and (not to be picky, but to understand) what words did you leave out of the above???
Lets try to stay on point.

[gabosaurus]

When the chips are down, someone is always going to play the Christ Card and declare that the game is over.
Pure faith will never beat pure science.

[Doniston]

Lets try to stay on point. Good, I'm trying to understand what your meant there. ---Or don't you know either????/

[glockmail]

Good, I'm trying to understand what your meant there. ---Or don't you know either????/ You wnet off on a tangent and got lost- so back to the point, which is that queerness is a choice, and that you and other liberals have been unable to prove otherwise.

[Doniston]

You wnet off on a tangent and got lost- so back to the point, which is that queerness is a choice, and that you and other liberals have been unable to prove otherwise. No. it was you simple sentence who's meant got lost because wirds were apparently left out. and BTW, our point ---that you can not prove it is simply a choice--- is equally as valid as yours.

But you know, since you won't revisit the offending sentence. I have to belive that you don't know what it meant either.

[glockmail]

No. it was you simple sentence who's meant got lost because wirds were apparently left out. and BTW, our point ---that you can not prove it is simply a choice--- is equally as valid as yours.

But you know, since you won't revisit the offending sentence. I have to belive that you don't know what it meant either.

I don't have to prove it. Its been common knowledge for centuries, and only since the 1980's or so have queers figgered out that they could claim ti be victims- just like blacks and minorities- if their condition was genetic. Therefore the politically correct change from "sexual preference" to "sexual orientation". It is therefore up to queers to prove their case, not mine to prove the obvious.