Occupy Wall Street?

[kowalskil]

Occupy Wall Street


The last issue of Montclarion, a student newspaper at Montclair State University, published an article of Grover Furr, about the Occupy Wall Street movement:


http://www.themontclarion.org/archives/3740261


Yes, rich people always want to be richer and richer. This is unfortunate; no one knows how to stop this, without taking away constructive motivation. What fraction of Bill Gates' fortune is consumed and what fraction is productively invested? My guess is that the first fraction is much less than 10%, and that he is not a rare exception.


What does Professor Furr have to offer us? Consider a complex machine which works but not perfectly. Anyone can destroy it; no advanced knowledge is usually needed to accomplish this. But one has to be highly knowledgeable in order to repair it, or to design a better replacement. I am thinking about sophisticated engines, airplanes, TV sets, X ray scanners, computers, airconditioners, oil refineries, etc.


The same is true for an economic system. No system is perfect; but some are more efficient than others. Trying to destroy US capitalism without offering something better is likely to create a lot of misery. I am thinking about what Lenin and Stalin did, as decribed in my two short books. These books are now freely available online; the links are at:


http://pages.csam.montclair.edu/~kowalski/links.html


Note that even now, one hundred years after the Soviet revolution, standards of living in Russia are much lower than in the US, and in other western countries.


Ludwik Kowalski (see Wikipedia)
.

[revelarts]

Occupy Wall Street

...
No system is perfect; but some are more efficient than others. Trying to destroy US capitalism without offering something better is likely to create a lot of misery. I am thinking about what Lenin and Stalin did, as decribed in my two short books. These books are now freely available online; the links are at:


http://pages.csam.montclair.edu/~kowalski/links.html (http://pages.csam.montclair.edu/%7Ekowalski/links.html)


Note that even now, one hundred years after the Soviet revolution, standards of living in Russia are much lower than in the US, and in other western countries.


Ludwik Kowalski (see Wikipedia)
.


"No system is perfect; but some are more efficient than others."

LK, I think this point is lost on the the right , the left and libertarians sides of the issue.

[red states rule]

"No system is perfect; but some are more efficient than others."

LK, I think this point is lost on the the right , the left and libertarians sides of the issue.




It's not lost on me. I see a bunch of freeloaders demanding more of the money I earn to finance their want list

[red states rule]

this is the best and brightest the left has to offer us

<IFRAME height=315 src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/zy4-TSw-AyQ" frameBorder=0 width=420 allowfullscreen></IFRAME>

[Delenn]

Occupy Wall Street


The last issue of Montclarion, a student newspaper at Montclair State University, published an article of Grover Furr, about the Occupy Wall Street movement:


http://www.themontclarion.org/archives/3740261


Yes, rich people always want to be richer and richer. This is unfortunate; no one knows how to stop this, without taking away constructive motivation. What fraction of Bill Gates' fortune is consumed and what fraction is productively invested? My guess is that the first fraction is much less than 10%, and that he is not a rare exception.

But, who the heck wants to ask him that?

Why don’t we ask him about the Microsoft Office units and mice that were
packed by prisoners in Washington State’s Twin Rivers Correctional Center? Why
don’t we ask him about his guest appearance at the House Science Committee
in 2008? The one where he threatened to move jobs offshore if he didn’t get
his H1-B Visa gig passed to bring in cheap labor and stated that there was a
worker shortage. That Visa is referred to as the “out sourcing” visa. India
lobbied to get the most of those because firms send them here, train them,
send them back and then the jobs here are outsourced to India. Gates is a
member of NASSCOM. There wasn’t a shortage. A GAO study and an Urban
Institute study stated that there was no shortage. Then there was this
http://www.iowapolitics.com/index.iml?Article=120787



What does Professor Furr have to offer us? Consider a complex machine which works but not perfectly. Anyone can destroy it; no advanced knowledge is usually needed to accomplish this. But one has to be highly knowledgeable in order to repair it, or to design a better replacement. I am thinking about sophisticated engines, airplanes, TV sets, X ray scanners, computers, airconditioners, oil refineries, etc.


The same is true for an economic system. No system is perfect; but some are more efficient than others. Trying to destroy US capitalism without offering something better is likely to create a lot of misery. I am thinking about what Lenin and Stalin did, as decribed in my two short books. These books are now freely available online; the links are at:


http://pages.csam.montclair.edu/~kowalski/links.html


Note that even now, one hundred years after the Soviet revolution, standards of living in Russia are much lower than in the US, and in other western countries.


Ludwik Kowalski (see Wikipedia)
.
Capitalism and Communism look pretty on paper. Neither of them translates
well into the real world. The choices are not one or the other. Yes, he is
correct—the problem is capitalism. The problems that we are seeing are a
result of unchecked capitalism. Capitalism or any corporation/business is
about profit not people. That is its purpose. This is understood. Adam
Smith understood it. However, this means that it needs to be kept in check
so that it does not run over people in its pursuit of profit because, by its
very nature, that is what capitalism does.

The US has always been a mixed economy. It will never become a communist country. However, it is clearly necessary that we change our line of questioning with our those like Gates.

The answer lies in finding the middle ground not in extremes.

[Little-Acorn]

Yes, rich people always want to be richer and richer.
So do poor people.


This is unfortunate
It is? Why?


no one knows how to stop this,
Do you have some reason why it should be "stopped"?


Not much point in reading further. Too high a kook factor in the OP.

[logroller]

Capitalism and Communism look pretty on paper. Neither of them translates
well into the real world. The choices are not one or the other. Yes, he is
correct—the problem is capitalism. The problems that we are seeing are a
result of unchecked capitalism. Capitalism or any corporation/business is
about profit not people. That is its purpose. This is understood. Adam
Smith understood it. However, this means that it needs to be kept in check
so that it does not run over people in its pursuit of profit because, by its
very nature, that is what capitalism does.

The US has always been a mixed economy. It will never become a communist country. However, it is clearly necessary that we change our line of questioning with our those like Gates.

The answer lies in finding the middle ground not in extremes.

Who is it that buys corporate products, investments etc--- other corps...and who buys them, who drives the corporate machine?
Answer: people do. Blame the people and our inherent greed.

You seem to think that top-down blending of an economy with two opposed trains of thought is a check; but, as we've seen-- that leads to more extremism, not moderation. For the check to function it needs to arise from the individuals pursuing their own interests, those in power will respond in kind-- not the other way around. I'm reminded, yet again, of Milton Friedman's famous question- "Tell me where in the world you are going to find these angels who are going to organize society for us?"

Yes capitalism is ignorant of the social needs; unless, of course, one considers people as capital. This is true of ALL endeavors, being driven by individuals who seek their own personal fulfillment-- to some this translated as profit, to others humanitarian need. A blend is desirable, but it is the individuals who need implement this, not the corps, and certainly not govt. Can this become perverted-- you bet; as evidenced through the disconnection of the people involved in any organization; which at its broadest and most influential setting is representative government.

What any organization provides, in practice, is the removal of direct personal reward and liability for one's actions. Allowing one to simultaneously enjoy the rewards of the mission while rejecting the very mechanisms of it's provision-- justified means to the end. In order for man to make sense of this, ignorance is necessary-- this is true for profit-seeking corporation, NGOs and government alike. Each organization provides benefits which the stakeholders alone would be incapable of attaining by any other means. A free- market will not derive a less efficient model-- that is what Smith premised-- free-markets and specialization for the highest and best use. The issue you have with corporations not providing for social needs is thanks to having been freed from their social obligations by government, in exchange for a share in the profits (ie taxes); and this has driven the extremism of the profit-motive. But that's not a free-market; that's market manipulation-- and we see more and more that as government entitlements grow, both our personal responsibility and our rewards diminish. Inspiring the quip-- "When socialism fails, blame capitalism, and demand for socialism."

[red states rule]

But, who the heck wants to ask him that?

Why don’t we ask him about the Microsoft Office units and mice that were
packed by prisoners in Washington State’s Twin Rivers Correctional Center? Why
don’t we ask him about his guest appearance at the House Science Committee
in 2008? The one where he threatened to move jobs offshore if he didn’t get
his H1-B Visa gig passed to bring in cheap labor and stated that there was a
worker shortage. That Visa is referred to as the “out sourcing” visa. India
lobbied to get the most of those because firms send them here, train them,
send them back and then the jobs here are outsourced to India. Gates is a
member of NASSCOM. There wasn’t a shortage. A GAO study and an Urban
Institute study stated that there was no shortage. Then there was this
http://www.iowapolitics.com/index.iml?Article=120787



Capitalism and Communism look pretty on paper. Neither of them translates
well into the real world. The choices are not one or the other. Yes, he is
correct—the problem is capitalism. The problems that we are seeing are a
result of unchecked capitalism. Capitalism or any corporation/business is
about profit not people. That is its purpose. This is understood. Adam
Smith understood it. However, this means that it needs to be kept in check
so that it does not run over people in its pursuit of profit because, by its
very nature, that is what capitalism does.

The US has always been a mixed economy. It will never become a communist country. However, it is clearly necessary that we change our line of questioning with our those like Gates.

The answer lies in finding the middle ground not in extremes.


If capitalsm is so bad why are the hippies demanding a $20/hr living wage, putting money in the bank, and selling T-shirts and other items on the street?

Also why are some of the hippies selling drugs for money?

Why are some hippies employed to protest?

Bottom line is, this is another lame attempt by the left to try and push their agenda and the liberal media is happy to go along and report the provided script as news

What is clear to me is the Obama agenda has failed big time, and treating the private sector as the enemy will not result in any improvement in the Obama economy

[red states rule]

But, who the heck wants to ask him that?

Why don’t we ask him about the Microsoft Office units and mice that were
packed by prisoners in Washington State’s Twin Rivers Correctional Center? Why
don’t we ask him about his guest appearance at the House Science Committee
in 2008? The one where he threatened to move jobs offshore if he didn’t get
his H1-B Visa gig passed to bring in cheap labor and stated that there was a
worker shortage. That Visa is referred to as the “out sourcing” visa. India
lobbied to get the most of those because firms send them here, train them,
send them back and then the jobs here are outsourced to India. Gates is a
member of NASSCOM. There wasn’t a shortage. A GAO study and an Urban
Institute study stated that there was no shortage. Then there was this
http://www.iowapolitics.com/index.iml?Article=120787



Capitalism and Communism look pretty on paper. Neither of them translates
well into the real world. The choices are not one or the other. Yes, he is
correct—the problem is capitalism. The problems that we are seeing are a
result of unchecked capitalism. Capitalism or any corporation/business is
about profit not people. That is its purpose. This is understood. Adam
Smith understood it. However, this means that it needs to be kept in check
so that it does not run over people in its pursuit of profit because, by its
very nature, that is what capitalism does.

The US has always been a mixed economy. It will never become a communist country. However, it is clearly necessary that we change our line of questioning with our those like Gates.

The answer lies in finding the middle ground not in extremes.



http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/GM111023CLR-Proteste20111024040156.jpg

[fj1200]

Capitalism and Communism look pretty on paper. Neither of them translates
well into the real world. The choices are not one or the other. Yes, he is
correct—the problem is capitalism. The problems that we are seeing are a
result of unchecked capitalism. Capitalism or any corporation/business is
about profit not people. That is its purpose. This is understood. Adam
Smith understood it. However, this means that it needs to be kept in check
so that it does not run over people in its pursuit of profit because, by its
very nature, that is what capitalism does.

The US has always been a mixed economy. It will never become a communist country. However, it is clearly necessary that we change our line of questioning with our those like Gates.

The answer lies in finding the middle ground not in extremes.

Capitalism is the only one that translates into the real world. The things that we have do not come from the "communism" side it comes from the "capitalism" side. The "communism" side is a cost that is imposed resulting in less overall efficiency. The fact is that there is no "unchecked capitalism," capitalism IS a check on itself as a result of competition. Claiming that the US "has always been mixed" is attempting to claim some of the credit for the "communism" side that is not warranted.

And before you start claiming we need to provide diapers because capitalism has failed understand what government action has done to create that environment. The easy answer for a politicians is to just send over some diapers, money, etc. without addressing the root causes or finding the actual problem; they only address the symptoms.

What questions do you suppose we should be asking Gates?

[red states rule]

More from the oh so tolerant left and the "grassroots" movement. Can anyone post anything like this from a Tea Party rally?

<IFRAME height=315 src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/l3Y9CARUwio" frameBorder=0 width=560 allowfullscreen></IFRAME>

[Delenn]

Who is it that buys corporate products, investments etc--- other corps...and who buys them, who drives the corporate machine?
Answer: people do. Blame the people and our inherent greed.

You seem to think that top-down blending of an economy with two opposed trains of thought is a check; but, as we've seen-- that leads to more extremism, not moderation. For the check to function it needs to arise from the individuals pursuing their own interests, those in power will respond in kind-- not the other way around. I'm reminded, yet again, of Milton Friedman's famous question- "Tell me where in the world you are going to find these angels who are going to organize society for us?"

The Prof that is advocating a revolution to destroy capitalism is not going to have his way. It isn't going to happen. You know it and I know it and, if I was a betting woman, the red prof knows that this will not happen. Further, to take the OWS and pretend that it is a vehicle does nothing more than create an unnecessary fear of the issues at stake, if not one than the other. This is not true.

This is not a combination of two economic systems and expecting one to keep the other in check. This is recognizing that there are grievances that need to be addressed.


Yes capitalism is ignorant of the social needs; unless, of course, one considers people as capital.
Seems to me that we have a historical pattern that shows capitalism is very aware of the social needs but since the goal is profits, it does not matter.


This is true of ALL endeavors, being driven by individuals who seek their own personal fulfillment-- to some this translated as profit, to others humanitarian need. A blend is desirable, but it is the individuals who need implement this, not the corps, and certainly not govt.

I agree. BUT, let's not kid ourselves. One individual going up against any one corp or govt---is at best foolhardy.


Can this become perverted-- you bet; as evidenced through the disconnection of the people involved in any organization; which at its broadest and most influential setting is representative government.

What any organization provides, in practice, is the removal of direct personal reward and liability for one's actions. Allowing one to simultaneously enjoy the rewards of the mission while rejecting the very mechanisms of it's provision-- justified means to the end. In order for man to make sense of this, ignorance is necessary-- this is true for profit-seeking corporation, NGOs and government alike. Each organization provides benefits which the stakeholders alone would be incapable of attaining by any other means. A free- market will not derive a less efficient model-- that is what Smith premised-- free-markets and specialization for the highest and best use. The issue you have with corporations not providing for social needs is thanks to having been freed from their social obligations by government, in exchange for a share in the profits (ie taxes); and this has driven the extremism of the profit-motive. But that's not a free-market; that's market manipulation-- and we see more and more that as government entitlements grow, both our personal responsibility and our rewards diminish. Inspiring the quip-- "When socialism fails, blame capitalism, and demand for socialism."

In order for man to profit, the pretense of ignorance is necessary.

Gates was not ignorant. He knew exactly what he was doing. He is not held accountable. The extremism existed well over a hundred years ago. Which of course then set about a need to devise laws that would protect the rights of the workers (keep it in check). They had enough time to do it themselves but that did not pan out.

The issue that I have with corporatism is by and large the pretense of ignorance. Smith would not have agree with something like OPEC. There is no reason to suspect that he would have agreed with tax havens. Smith was writing at a time where feudalism and semi feudalism was still in existence. It made zero sense to ship wool to Britain from one area and then back again-unnecessary expense.

[Delenn]

Capitalism is the only one that translates into the real world. The things that we have do not come from the "communism" side it comes from the "capitalism" side. The "communism" side is a cost that is imposed resulting in less overall efficiency. The fact is that there is no "unchecked capitalism," capitalism IS a check on itself as a result of competition. Claiming that the US "has always been mixed" is attempting to claim some of the credit for the "communism" side that is not warranted.

And before you start claiming we need to provide diapers because capitalism has failed understand what government action has done to create that environment. The easy answer for a politicians is to just send over some diapers, money, etc. without addressing the root causes or finding the actual problem; they only address the symptoms.

What questions do you suppose we should be asking Gates?

Why don’t we ask him about the Microsoft Office units and mice that were
packed by prisoners in Washington State’s Twin Rivers Correctional Center? Why
don’t we ask him about his guest appearance at the House Science Committee
in 2008? The one where he threatened to move jobs offshore if he didn’t get
his H1-B Visa gig passed to bring in cheap labor and stated that there was a
worker shortage. That Visa is referred to as the “out sourcing” visa. India
lobbied to get the most of those because firms send them here, train them,
send them back and then the jobs here are outsourced to India. Gates is a
member of NASSCOM. There wasn’t a shortage. A GAO study and an Urban
Institute study stated that there was no shortage. Then there was this
http://www.iowapolitics.com/index.iml?Article=120787

[revelarts]

Capitalism does not have a MORAL check, the market only checks it's profits and success not it's morality. Capitalism is great in it's place but it needs to come under SOME kind of moral frame work or it's a harsh cold master. And it's not extreme capitalism it's just plain naked Capitalism doing what it does, MAKING MONEY for some people. period. If it takes a sweat shop and the market will still buy it , thats Capitalism at work. if it takes sick migrant workers who you threaten to deport and the market still buys the products, well that's Capitalism working. If U.S. citizens love coke -not the soda- but people die on the boarders and elsewhere to make it happen, so be it, it's Capitalism baby. Feeling lonely? there's a market for that, sex slavery is bombing and the market is growing not checking it self. manufacture-service-supply-demand.
no freedom, no compassion, no morals need be added.
That's just the way it is.

YES YES YES I knoooww it's better than communism, but we need to stop sugar coating capitalism if it's a miracle worker. it's only PART of a good (in the full spectrum of what good is) life for a society.
Morals, honesty, thrift, love, compassion, kindness, justice freedom have to come into play ABOVE the good Capitalistic goals. How that works out in law and the laws of the market is the trick.
I don't have answer for it (that people like) but I know the MARKET itself won't find it unless the gov't PUNISHES immoral behavior in the MARKET, Stealing, lying, fraud, are at the top of the Wall Street list of sins.
And don't give me that the Gov't made me do it crap. BS. Wall Street helped write some of the legislation. And Goldman Scahs and other Wall st people are in many key positions in the gov't making sure the skids are greased for there "former" and "future" employers.

the tea party and the Wall street people need to find the common ground and push back hard against them. there's plenty of REAL corruption that could be dealt with collectively. If the right wouldn't get defesive about weeding out bad players and the left would get real and stop blaming the game and try to adjust the bad rules kick out the bad players.
the BAIL OUT is one common gripe. maybe start there rather than picking at each others clothes or jewishness and other superficial bs. While it's Business as usual in congress and wall st.. While the tea parties people's pensions and homes get bundled and lost in some shady new derivative style instrument and the students can't get a loan or a job in the US but both have time to name call each other on the street where they'll all end up living together if they don't focus on the freaking problem.


Aaaand speaking of superficial, as a break in the RSR OWS vids here are some nicer looking young gals at the OWS. (they don't have much but hope air coming out there mouths but they're young c'mon)
<iframe src="http://player.vimeo.com/video/30476100?byline=0&portrait=0" webkitallowfullscreen="" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="225" width="400"></iframe>Hot Chicks of Occupy Wall Street (http://vimeo.com/30476100) from Steven Greenstreet (http://vimeo.com/middleofmayhem) on Vimeo (http://vimeo.com).

[jimnyc]

Why don’t we ask him about the Microsoft Office units and mice that were
packed by prisoners in Washington State’s Twin Rivers Correctional Center? Why
don’t we ask him about his guest appearance at the House Science Committee
in 2008? The one where he threatened to move jobs offshore if he didn’t get
his H1-B Visa gig passed to bring in cheap labor and stated that there was a
worker shortage. That Visa is referred to as the “out sourcing” visa. India
lobbied to get the most of those because firms send them here, train them,
send them back and then the jobs here are outsourced to India. Gates is a
member of NASSCOM. There wasn’t a shortage. A GAO study and an Urban
Institute study stated that there was no shortage. Then there was this
http://www.iowapolitics.com/index.iml?Article=120787

** Off topic! **

Delenn - why do so many of your posts not utilize the entire posting space of the board? The formatting is off, as if you wrote it elsewhere and then copied here... Notice how all the other posts take up the entire space like mine here and yours is so small? Just makes it harder to read when its all bunched up like that. If you're writing first, then copying/pasting - use notepad or another text editor that won't have formatting.

[Delenn]

** Off topic! **

Delenn - why do so many of your posts not utilize the entire posting space of the board? The formatting is off, as if you wrote it elsewhere and then copied here... Notice how all the other posts take up the entire space like mine here and yours is so small? Just makes it harder to read when its all bunched up like that. If you're writing first, then copying/pasting - use notepad or another text editor that won't have formatting.

I was using Google Chrome.

[jimnyc]

I was using Google Chrome.

I shouldn't take this thread further off topic...

I only tried Chrome once, and didn't care for it, so back to Firefox. But I had no idea that Chrome would affect the formatting of a post. Good tip for when a future post annoys me, so I don't make an ass out of myself. I'll look to see if vBulletin is aware of this and whether there is a fix in store.

[avatar4321]

So do poor people.


It is? Why?


Do you have some reason why it should be "stopped"?


Not much point in reading further. Too high a kook factor in the OP.

I happen to agree. Why is working and making money something that should be stopped?

[red states rule]

As if we did not need another example of the blatant bias and slanted coverage the liberal media is providing the hippies

When the liberal media covered Tea party events, the "reporters" went there to find examples of racism and violence. (If none were found, they created their examples)

With the hippies, they ignore the constant acts of violence, and the racial slurs being screamed, or dismiss them out of hand



<IFRAME title="MRC TV video player" height=360 src="http://www.mrctv.org/embed/106917" frameBorder=0 width=640 allowfullscreen></IFRAME>

[fj1200]

But I had no idea that Chrome would affect the formatting of a post.

It doesn't. I've been using Chrome for quite some time for most of my posts and haven't seen any formatting issues.

[fj1200]

Why don’t we ask him about...

Did he do something illegal?

[fj1200]

Capitalism does not have a MORAL check...

I don't have answer for it (that people like)...

the tea party and the Wall street people need to find the common ground...

I'm struggling with bothering to counter all of that rubbish or simply ask what you would expect government to do, successfully, that would reform capitalism in your view?

A helpful hint: it would be better to give examples of actual "naked Capitalism" when decrying "naked Capitalism." I also don't think there is much common ground between the two. My guess is that most of the Tea Partiers are mostly for capitalism while most of the OWSers are against capitalism; the older in the TP like their government SS and Medicare and the younger in the OWS like their capitalism provided smart phones.

[Delenn]

Did he do something illegal?


Are you supporting Mr. Gates sending jobs over seas and clearly lying about what his needs are?

[Delenn]

It doesn't. I've been using Chrome for quite some time for most of my posts and haven't seen any formatting issues.

I have been posting with Chrome. Outside of that, I have no idea.

[fj1200]

Are you supporting Mr. Gates sending jobs over seas and clearly lying about what his needs are?

I support outsourcing, I also support removing tax laws that encourage such. Did he do something illegal?

[revelarts]

I'm struggling with bothering to counter all of that rubbish or simply ask what you would expect government to do, successfully, that would reform capitalism in your view?

A helpful hint: it would be better to give examples of actual "naked Capitalism" when decrying "naked Capitalism."

I gave several example of naked capitalism TAKE THE BLINDERS OFF FJs, c'mon man.
sweatshops, blackmailed migrant workers, illegal drug trade and the sex slave trade. none of these are communism, they are not based on a socialist economic system.
IT'S CAPITALISM, making money by supplying a product or service to the open market at an acceptable price. it's Naked becuase it's unclothed and fettered by morals or freedoms of how people are treated to provide those goods.

I'm no finance guy really, I'm still learning but i crib this from a site.
Where would you say the commerce/trade I mentioned above fits on the economics isms chart here.

.. / ..............................Welfarism ..............................\
Communism *---Socialism-------------------Georgism-----* Capitalism
\__Fascism_____Keynesianism____Monetarism__/
..............................Mercantilism ..............................


FJ says"...what you would expect government to do, successfully, that would reform capitalism in your view?"


How about starting with reigning in wall st.'s financial markets operating on margins on top of margins and with phantom shares. How about taking home mortgages and Agricultural products off the table when the "investors" want to gamble. How about no revolving doors from wall st to the feds to the executive branch regulators. How about LETTING BANKS and Big corps FAIL as capitalism and the market would dictate, just to get started?


FJ says"Tea Partiers are mostly for capitalism while most of the OWSers are against capitalism; the older in the TP like their government SS and Medicare and the younger in the OWS like their capitalism provided smart phones."

the tea party wants the constitution until it hits to several items as well, but as i mentioned I'm looking for common ground. the owsers, with sense, know in their guts they are not going to throw out capitalism tomorrow but getting some real enforcement of good regs, some reimbursement of gov't money, some thieves in jail is where I think there may be some common ground.

[Delenn]

I support outsourcing, I also support removing tax laws that encourage such. Did he do something illegal?


I just want to make sure that I heard you correctly: You support sending American jobs overseas?

[red states rule]

I just want to make sure that I heard you correctly: You support sending American jobs overseas?

Hell, Obama is giving "stimulus" and taxpayer money for "green" jobs to create jobs overseas. Yet that story is ignored by the liberal media

Perhaps if America did not punish success with high corparate taxes and excessive regulations companies would be wanting to set up business in America instead of getting the hell out

[Delenn]

Hell, Obama is giving "stimulus" and taxpayer money for "green" jobs to create jobs overseas. Yet that story is ignored by the liberal media

Perhaps if America did not punish success with high corparate taxes and excessive regulations companies would be wanting to set up business in America instead of getting the hell out

Why don’t we ask him about the Microsoft Office units and mice that were
packed by prisoners in Washington State’s Twin Rivers Correctional Center? Why
don’t we ask him about his guest appearance at the House Science Committee
in 2008? The one where he threatened to move jobs offshore if he didn’t get
his H1-B Visa gig passed to bring in cheap labor and stated that there was a
worker shortage. That Visa is referred to as the “out sourcing” visa. India
lobbied to get the most of those because firms send them here, train them,
send them back and then the jobs here are outsourced to India. Gates is a
member of NASSCOM. There wasn’t a shortage. A GAO study and an Urban
Institute study stated that there was no shortage. Then there was this
http://www.iowapolitics.com/index.iml?Article=120787


What is wrong with the above, Red? You support sending American jobs overseas?

[jimnyc]

Why don’t we ask him about the Microsoft Office units and mice that were
packed by prisoners in Washington State’s Twin Rivers Correctional Center? Why
don’t we ask him about his guest appearance at the House Science Committee
in 2008? The one where he threatened to move jobs offshore if he didn’t get
his H1-B Visa gig passed to bring in cheap labor and stated that there was a
worker shortage. That Visa is referred to as the “out sourcing” visa. India
lobbied to get the most of those because firms send them here, train them,
send them back and then the jobs here are outsourced to India. Gates is a
member of NASSCOM. There wasn’t a shortage. A GAO study and an Urban
Institute study stated that there was no shortage. Then there was this
http://www.iowapolitics.com/index.iml?Article=120787


What is wrong with the above, Red? You support sending American jobs overseas?

#1 - Please stop making the same post repetitively. This is the 3rd time you have posted the same paragraph with the same link.

#2 - Oddly enough, this same paragraph is the one coming here already formatted. It's annoying to say the least. But this is what happens when we copy/paste. It is not a Chrome issue but rather you copied/pasted the first time and likely did the same going forward. Stopping the posting of the same thing several times will fix that problem.

[Delenn]

#1 - Please stop making the same post repetitively. This is the 3rd time you have posted the same paragraph with the same link.

#2 - Oddly enough, this same paragraph is the one coming here already formatted. It's annoying to say the least. But this is what happens when we copy/paste. It is not a Chrome issue but rather you copied/pasted the first time and likely did the same going forward. Stopping the posting of the same thing several times will fix that problem.


I am copying and pasting it from the first post that I made.

I am looking for a solid answer. They seem to be avoiding it.

[jimnyc]

I am copying and pasting it from the first post that I made.

I am looking for a solid answer. They seem to be avoiding it.

Then ask them to answer your post # - posting the same shitty formatted paragraph over and over is akin to spamming this thread. Just tell them to read whatever post # you made it in first is sufficient.

[Delenn]

Then ask them to answer your post # - posting the same shitty formatted paragraph over and over is akin to spamming this thread. Just tell them to read whatever post # you made it in first is sufficient.


Fuck you and your fucking board. I'm out.

[jimnyc]

Fuck you and your fucking board. I'm out.

You're too stupid to make a proper post, and too stupid to stop making it over and over - so you're going to whine and announce your departure? Typical liberal, always the fault of someone else when their ineptitude comes out.

Adios, dolt!

[Gunny]

Fuck you and your fucking board. I'm out.

Crybaby.

[fj1200]

I just want to make sure that I heard you correctly: You support sending American jobs overseas?

Do posts disappear after you read them? Another glitch with Chrome?


I support outsourcing, I also support removing tax laws that encourage such. Did he do something illegal?

I support high wage jobs being sourced in the US because they are a function of our advantage while low wage jobs are a function of some of our trading partners advantage. You clearly missed the part where I supported removing tax laws/rules that encourage unnecessary outsourcing.

[fj1200]

I gave several example of naked capitalism TAKE THE BLINDERS OFF FJs, c'mon man.
sweatshops, blackmailed migrant workers, illegal drug trade and the sex slave trade. none of these are communism, they are not based on a socialist economic system.
IT'S CAPITALISM, making money by supplying a product or service to the open market at an acceptable price. it's Naked becuase it's unclothed and fettered by morals or freedoms of how people are treated to provide those goods.

I guess what you have presented is what you have modified as "naked capitalism." If you are going to present your own version of "capitalism" that doesn't comport with free-market principles then how am I to argue? You gave a whole bunch of examples that contain a whole bunch of government intervention and theft of someones life, liberty, and/or property so in my view are not capitalism.


I'm no finance guy really, I'm still learning but i crib this from a site.
Where would you say the commerce/trade I mentioned above fits on the economics isms chart here.

.. / ..............................Welfarism ..............................\
Communism *---Socialism-------------------Georgism-----* Capitalism
\__Fascism_____Keynesianism____Monetarism__/
..............................Mercantilism ..............................

I don't really know what to make of your chart. Those examples may fit better into a socialist framework than you would care to admit. Can't say I know how they define "Georgism" off the top of my head.


FJ says"...what you would expect government to do, successfully, that would reform capitalism in your view?"

How about starting with reigning in wall st.'s financial markets operating on margins on top of margins and with phantom shares. How about taking home mortgages and Agricultural products off the table when the "investors" want to gamble. How about no revolving doors from wall st to the feds to the executive branch regulators. How about LETTING BANKS and Big corps FAIL as capitalism and the market would dictate, just to get started?

Can't say I disagree with that very last part because that would be an example of the Creative Destruction of capitalism. I also support the removal of excessive government intervention which would eliminate your "revoling door." The former examples above are unnecessary for government to be involved in. There are plenty of good reasons that firms need to hedge and commodities markets are the vehicle in which it can be done. Also, investors don't gamble.


FJ says"Tea Partiers are mostly for capitalism while most of the OWSers are against capitalism; the older in the TP like their government SS and Medicare and the younger in the OWS like their capitalism provided smart phones."

the tea party wants the constitution until it hits to several items as well, but as i mentioned I'm looking for common ground. the owsers, with sense, know in their guts they are not going to throw out capitalism tomorrow but getting some real enforcement of good regs, some reimbursement of gov't money, some thieves in jail is where I think there may be some common ground.

I think you overestimate the owsers in your desire for common ground. Who should be in jail?

[fj1200]

I am looking for a solid answer. They seem to be avoiding it.

Who's avoiding it? It's irrelevant.

[red states rule]

Fuck you and your fucking board. I'm out.

Looks like another liberal has reached their tolerance level.

Go post on the Daily Kos or Dem Underground where you do not to worry about posting facts or staying on topic. You will fit in on those sites just fine

Please do not let the door hit you in the ass on the way out, OK?