Judiciary Chairman Calls For A Special Counsel to Investigate Eric Holder

[Kathianne]

Finally, the call for a special prosecutor! I told you this was going to be 'big.':

http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/gunwalker-house-wants-special-counsel-to-investigate-eric-holder/?singlepage=true


Gunwalker: House Wants Special Counsel To Investigate Eric Holder
Posted By Bob Owens On October 4, 2011 @ 11:43 am [/URL]

[URL="http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/10/04/house-republicans-to-request-special-counsel-to-probe-holder-on-fast-and/"]That didn’t take long (http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/gunwalker-house-wants-special-counsel-to-investigate-eric-holder/?print=1#comments_controls) [1]:

House Republicans are going to call for a special counsel to determine whether Attorney General Holder perjured himself during his testimony to the House Judiciary Committee on Operation Fast and Furious, Fox News has learned.


House Judiciary Committee Chairman Lamar Smith, R-Texas, is sending a letter to President Obama arguing that Holder cannot investigate himself and will request a probe by a special counsel.


The question is whether Holder committed perjury during a Judiciary Committee hearing in May. At the time, Holder indicated he was not familiar with with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives program known as Fast and Furious.
Judiciary’s call for special counsel comes after documentation surfaced yesterday (http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/gunwalker-holder-appears-to-be-fast-furious-and-finished/) [2] that indicated Holder was getting weekly briefs on Operation Fast and Furious, and that senior Justice Department executives were well aware that these operations were walking guns into Mexico.
So far, Holder’s PR defense is that he didn’t understand the following question: “When did you first hear about Operation Fast and Furious?”


President Barack Obama now finds himself in a complicated predicament at a time which already marks the low point of public opinion regarding his performance, and as his hopes of re-election fade. If Obama opposes the appointment of a special prosecutor for the perjury investigation (and by extension, Operation Fast and Furious and other alleged gunwalking operations), he immediately saddles his campaign with questions of obstructing a lawful and legitimate call for an independent investigation. Operation Fast and Furious will immediately become a key story for the 2012 campaign, though it has so far been largely ignored by the media.


Likewise, President Obama seems to be in danger if he does choose to appoint a special prosecutor. Evidence to date — including direct communications between the ATF special agent running Operation Fast and Furious and White House staffers — seems to indicate that the White House was well aware of these gunwalking operations. If evidence surfaces that directly implicates President Obama himself, then a failed reelection bid may be the least of his worries...

[Gaffer]

yeeeaaaaa it's about time.

Move over clinton, there's a new elephant in the room.

[ConHog]

I said this in early 2008. Eric Holder is far more dangerous to this country than Obama could ever be.

[DragonStryk72]

Former BATF Agent John Dodson testified that he and other agents were ordered to observe the activities of gun smugglers but not to intervene.[15] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Fast_and_Furious#cite_note-14)

Over the course of the next 10 months that I was involved in this operation, we monitored as they purchased hand guns, AK-47 variants, and .50 caliber rifles almost daily. Rather than conduct any enforcement actions, we took notes, we recorded observations, we tracked movements of these individuals for a short time after their purchases, but nothing more. Knowing all the while, just days after these purchases, the guns that we saw these individuals buy would begin turning up at crime scenes in the United States and Mexico, we still did nothing.


Okay, now I do understand the advantage of watching your opponent and all, but dear Lord, how do you not track down the guns as soon as they get where they're going, since they were apparently being tracked? Not like the criminals holding them would know or anything. this whole thing is just fucked up beyond all reason.

[LuvRPgrl]

I said this in early 2008. Eric Holder is far more dangerous to this country than Obama could ever be.

If you bothered to put your brain hat on today, you would realize Holder doesnt have any power, without the blessing of Obama.

[Kathianne]

The Judiciary Committee Chair asked the president to appoint a special counsel, going around Holder since he is the subject of the investigation.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/10/04/house-republicans-to-request-special-counsel-to-probe-holder-on-fast-and/


...House Judiciary Committee Chairman Lamar Smith, R-Texas, was sending a letter to President Obama (http://www.foxnews.com/topics/politics/obama-administration/barack-obama.htm#r_src=ramp) on Tuesday arguing that Holder cannot investigate himself, and requesting the president instruct the Department of Justice to appoint a special counsel.


The question is whether Holder knowingly made false statements of fact under oath during a Judiciary Committee hearing on May 3. At the time, Holder indicated he was not familiar with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (http://www.foxnews.com/topics/politics/bureau-of-alcohol-tobacco-firearms-and-explosives.htm#r_src=ramp) program known as Fast and Furious until about April 2011.


"I'm not sure of the exact date, but I probably heard about Fast and Furious for the first time over the last few weeks," Holder testified.


The Department of Justice defended Holder in a statement Tuesday.


“The Attorney General’s testimony to both the House and the Senate was consistent and truthful," it read. "He said in both March and May of this year that he became aware of the questionable tactics employed in the Fast and Furious Operation in early 2011 when ATF agents first raised them publicly, and at the time, he asked the Inspector General’s office to investigate the matter."
However, newly discovered memos suggest otherwise. For instance, one memo dated July 2010 shows Michael Walther, director of the National Drug Intelligence Center, told Holder that straw buyers in the Fast and Furious operation "are responsible for the purchase of 1,500 firearms that were then supplied to the Mexican drug trafficking cartels."


Other documents also indicate that Holder began receiving weekly briefings on the program from the National Drug Intelligence Center "beginning, at the latest, on July 5, 2010," Smith wrote.
"These updates mentioned, not only the name of the operation, but also specific details about guns being trafficked to Mexico," Smith wrote in the letter to Obama.


"Allegations that senior Justice Department officials may have intentionally misled members of Congress are extremely troubling and must be addressed by an independent and objective special counsel. I urge you to appoint a special counsel who will investigate these allegations as soon as possible," Smith wrote.


House Judiciary Committee Ranking Member John Conyers, D-Mich., said he had not been informed of the reqeest before it was sent to the president...



Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/10/04/house-republicans-to-request-special-counsel-to-probe-holder-on-fast-and/print#ixzz1ZwPaIcNk

[Gaffer]

Asking the president to appoint someone is the same as asking holder.

[Kathianne]

Asking the president to appoint someone is the same as asking holder.

It may be so, but if you read my first link, you'll see that not appointing one carries some pretty big risks too. As I said earlier, lose/lose for Obama.

[Kathianne]

Can't put the genie back in that bottle. The screaming reported by the reporter, naming papers that were 'reasonable', has caused push back:

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-atf-guns-20111004,0,6104103.story


Emails show top Justice Department officials knew of ATF gun program Memos from 2010 show some in senior positions were aware of tactics used in a surveillance operation in which firearms were allowed into Mexico in a failed effort to catch drug cartel leaders. By Richard A. Serrano, Washington Bureau
9:32 PM PDT, October 3, 2011
Reporting from Washington


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Senior Justice Department officials were aware that ATF agents allowed firearms to be "walked" into Mexico, according to a series of emails last year in which they discussed two undercover operations on the Southwest border, including the failed Fast and Furious program.

In the emails that the department turned over to congressional investigators, Justice Department officials last October discussed both the Fast and Furious gun-trafficking surveillance operation in Phoenix and a separate investigation from 2006 and 2007 called Operation Wide Receiver. In Wide Receiver, which took place in Tucson, firearms also were acquired by illegal straw purchasers and lost in Mexico, the emails say.

The term "gun walking" is central to the failure of Fast and Furious. Agents with the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives purposely allowed licensed firearms dealers to sell weapons to illegal straw buyers, hoping to track the guns to Mexican drug cartel leaders and arrest them. But they lost track of more than 2,000 weapons, and the Mexican government says some of them have turned up at about 170 crime scenes there. Two were recovered at the scene of a U.S. Border Patrol agent's slaying in Arizona in December.

Justice Department officials have said repeatedly that they knew nothing of Fast and Furious tactics until ATF whistle-blowers went public this year with allegations that guns were being illegally purchased with the ATF's knowledge.

Justice Department officials, who asked not to be identified because of the ongoing investigations into Fast and Furious, said that although senior department officials knew that guns were "walked" in the Wide Receiver investigation, they were unaware that ATF agents were using similar tactics in Fast and Furious.

Jason Weinstein, deputy attorney general in the criminal division, brought up both cases in an October 2010 email, apparently concerned that they were going to overlap.

"Do you think we should try to have Lanny participate in press when Fast and Furious and [the] Tucson case are unsealed?" he asked about his boss, Lanny A. Breuer, head of the criminal division. "It's a tricky case given the number of guns that have walked but it is a significant set of prosecutions."

James Trusty, acting chief of the department's organized crime and gang section, responded, "I think so but the timing is tricky too."

He said the Tucson case would be ready for indictments before Fast and Furious, and that "it's not clear how much we're involved in the main F and F case."

Either way, he added that "it's not going to be any big surprise that a bunch of US guns are being used in MX, so I'm not sure how much grief we get for 'guns walking.' It may be more like, 'Finally they're going after people who sent guns down there' "

Investigators working for Rep. Darrell Issa (R-Vista), chairman of the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform, and Sen. Charles E. Grassley of Iowa, the top Republican on the Senate Judiciary Committee, view the emails as strong evidence that Justice Department officials knew about "gun walking" tactics in Fast and Furious.

Fast and Furious ran from fall 2009 to January, culminating in charges against 20 people — none of them cartel leaders. It was unclear whether any indictments were issued in the Wide Receiver operation.

July 2010 memos, part of weekly reports, discussed an illegal straw purchaser in Fast and Furious who bought 1,500 weapons "that were then supplied to Mexican drug-trafficking cartels."

October and November memos said that "Phoenix-based 'Operation Fast and Furious' is ready for takedown" — several months before the investigation was officially closed.

Copies of all of the memos were heavily redacted.

Justice Department officials said Atty. Gen. Eric H. Holder Jr. routinely received reports about myriad ongoing investigations around the country, and that the reports did not disclose that ATF agents were purposely "walking" the weapons. They said Issa received a similar Fast and Furious update last year.

But congressional investigators said the memos suggested Holder had hedged what he knew.

According to the emails, Holder was told generally about Fast and Furious in the memos in July, October and November 2010, well before he told congressional committees he had first learned of the program.

On March 10, Holder testified before a Senate subcommittee that he had just learned about the Fast and Furious gun-walking allegations and had asked for the inspector general's investigation. "We cannot have a situation where guns are allowed to walk," he said.

On May 3, he was asked by Issa when he first learned about Fast and Furious. "I'm not sure of the exact date," Holder testified. "But I probably heard about Fast and Furious for the first time over the last few weeks."

Justice Department officials said Holder was referring to the date when he first learned about the operational details of Fast and Furious, not the program itself.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/05/us/politics/gop-accuses-holder-of-misleading-congress.html

WaPo can only bring themself to report on what CBS is reporting:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/memos-contradict-holder-on-fast-and-furious/2011/10/03/gIQA98jMJL_video.html

[Psychoblues]

How is it shown there is or has been any intent by Holder or even the President to deceive the American people and for what illegal purpose? I can just hear the howls from the right just a few years ago about some Dems calling for war crimes investigations and such. This investigation will go about as far as that one did. Some of you cats are plain ol' schizo.

Psychoblues

[Kathianne]

How is it shown there is or has been any intent by Holder or even the President to deceive the American people and for what illegal purpose? I can just hear the howls from the right just a few years ago about some Dems calling for war crimes investigations and such. This investigation will go about as far as that one did. Some of you cats are plain ol' schizo.

Psychoblues

Try reading the links, it might help. Really care? Do a search of 'fast and furious'. Concentrate on the links from Pajamas media and CBS.

[LuvRPgrl]

Asking the president to appoint someone is the same as asking holder.

Holder was appointed by Obama, I think you can figure out the rest.

[LuvRPgrl]

It may be so, but if you read my first link, you'll see that not appointing one carries some pretty big risks too. As I said earlier, lose/lose for Obama.

Yea, and now Obama is being shown for the liar he is, "Washington will no longer be the same ol, same ol, we will bring a refreshing change"

[Psychoblues]

Try reading the links, it might help. Really care? Do a search of 'fast and furious'. Concentrate on the links from Pajamas media and CBS.

You missed my point altogether, Kath, and absolutely no disrespect to your concerns but we have seen these howlings so many times it just ain't funny anymore. But, you go ahead and get your hopes up. Maybe the reichwingers can drive this sitting Democratic President out of office and feel good about it. I think it's pitiful. Have you ever wondered why gwb and the Dick don't travel abroad? There are REAL crimes and REAL trials to be brought forward for which they will have to answer if caught in many countries, some known and some unknown. Not so much here. While that may make us feel a bit better about ourselves as a civil society we are considered absolute barbarians and murderers with some justification by millions and possibly billions abroad.

Seriously,

Psychoblues

[Kathianne]

You missed my point altogether, Kath, and absolutely no disrespect to your concerns but we have seen these howlings so many times it just ain't funny anymore. But, you go ahead and get your hopes up. Maybe the reichwingers can drive this sitting Democratic President out of office and feel good about it. I think it's pitiful. Have you ever wondered why gwb and the Dick don't travel abroad? There are REAL crimes and REAL trials to be brought forward for which they will have to answer if caught in many countries, some known and some unknown. Not so much here. While that may make us feel a bit better about ourselves as a civil society we are considered absolute barbarians and murderers with some justification by millions and possibly billions abroad.

Seriously,

Psychoblues

Absolutely no disrespect to your concerns PB, but you do know the above makes little sense regarding the topic?

[Psychoblues]

Absolutely no disrespect to your concerns PB, but you do know the above makes little sense regarding the topic?

Other than dashing some senseless hopes this administration has committed some crimes and misdemeanors for which they will have hell to pay? Psssssssssh. Ridiculous. Investigations? Carry on and spend your millions, possibly billions. In a perfect world the reichwingers would still be paying off the national debt for the senseless trials of the Big Dog.

:laugh2::laugh2::laugh2:

Psychoblues

[Kathianne]

Other than dashing some senseless hopes this administration has committed some crimes and misdemeanors for which they will have hell to pay? Psssssssssh. Ridiculous. Investigations? Carry on and spend your millions, possibly billions. In a perfect world the reichwingers would still be paying off the national debt for the senseless trials of the Big Dog.

:laugh2::laugh2::laugh2:

Psychoblues

For the record. You've no interest, curiosity regarding what is looking more and more like a major screw up with a program that seems for all intents and purposes to have been a major SNAFU from the beginning?

[Psychoblues]

For the record. You've no interest, curiosity regarding what is looking more and more like a major screw up with a program that seems for all intents and purposes to have been a major SNAFU from the beginning?

And for whatever purposes you simply can't know many facts at this stage yet you seem to exude such glee for the unfortunate or incompetent circumstances that you perceive from the present administration. Spread the hate, Kath. And good luck this time around. The American people are better prepared this time to deal with reichwing witch hunts. But, you are correct. There appears at this time to have been some SNAFU and whether major or not is yet to be determined. There are very narrow views and big picture considerations. Right now all we have is a very narrow viewpoint.

Psychoblues

[Kathianne]

And for whatever purposes you simply can't know many facts at this stage yet you seem to exude such glee for the unfortunate or incompetent circumstances that you perceive from the present administration. Spread the hate, Kath. And good luck this time around. The American people are better prepared this time to deal with reichwing witch hunts. But, you are correct. There appears at this time to have been some SNAFU and whether major or not is yet to be determined. There are very narrow views and big picture considerations. Right now all we have is a very narrow viewpoint.

Psychoblues

I've been angry, not gleeful, since first hearing of this nearly a year ago. That you want to turn it into a partisan topic is your shame, not mine.

If you truly cared about our country and how it's carrying out its functions, you too would be angry. You're not. Says much about you.

[Psychoblues]

I've been angry, not gleeful, since first hearing of this nearly a year ago. That you want to turn it into a partisan topic is your shame, not mine.

If you truly cared about our country and how it's carrying out its functions, you too would be angry. You're not. Says much about you.

Au contraire', Kath. I, too, share your anger except that I don't believe for a second that your anger overrides your petty partisanship. I didn't meet you just yesterday. We are both partisan and this is a partisan board and that's a natural American FACT. I've been angry since December 20, 2000, and I will probably continue to carry that chip on my shoulder for a while yet. I'm not alone by a long shot. History will not be kind to the appointment made on that day. But, I guess Supreme Court injustices and war crimes are not comparable to blow jobs in the White House. I digress.

We don't know much about all this at this time and due to clever classifications may never know much about it. Serious as it may be, I continue to believe it's all a bunch of overblown and uneducated reichwing bullshit. Lord knows we've heard our share of that for about 20 years now.

Psychoblues

[Kathianne]

Au contraire', Kath. I, too, share your anger except that I don't believe for a second that your anger overrides your petty partisanship. I didn't meet you just yesterday. We are both partisan and this is a partisan board and that's a natural American FACT. I've been angry since December 20, 2000, and I will probably continue to carry that chip on my shoulder for a while yet. I'm not alone by a long shot. History will not be kind to the appointment made on that day. But, I guess Supreme Court injustices and war crimes are not comparable to blow jobs in the White House. I digress.

We don't know much about all this at this time and due to clever classifications may never know much about it. Serious as it may be, I continue to believe it's all a bunch of overblown and uneducated reichwing bullshit. Lord knows we've heard our share of that for about 20 years now.

Psychoblues

Just nonsense. Sorry, nothing more than that. Grow up.

[ConHog]

Just nonsense. Sorry, nothing more than that. Grow up.

I believe you meant to say sober up.

[Psychoblues]

Just nonsense. Sorry, nothing more than that. Grow up.

Kath, I'll be more than happy to discuss those things you find nonsensical. Truth and hypocrisy are just a few of the things we face daily. That may sound simple but I assure you it is not.

Psychoblues

[Kathianne]

I believe you meant to say sober up. No, I didn't mean to say that or I would have. His attitude is all he claims to detest which is very immature. I meant 'grow up.'

[red states rule]

Truth and hypocrisy are just a few of the things we face daily. That may sound simple but I assure you it is not.

Psychoblues

True, but we put up with you anyway

[red states rule]

http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/111005beelertoon_c20111005033217.jpg

[LuvRPgrl]

You missed my point altogether, Kath, and absolutely no disrespect to your concerns but we have seen these howlings so many times it just ain't funny anymore. But, you go ahead and get your hopes up. Maybe the reichwingers can drive this sitting Democratic President out of office and feel good about it. I think it's pitiful. Have you ever wondered why gwb and the Dick don't travel abroad? There are REAL crimes and REAL trials to be brought forward for which they will have to answer if caught in many countries, some known and some unknown. Not so much here. While that may make us feel a bit better about ourselves as a civil society we are considered absolute barbarians and murderers with some justification by millions and possibly billions abroad.

Seriously,

Psychoblues

LOL, you are so funny. !!

"THERE ARE REAL CRIMES....SOME UNKNOWN..."

If they are unknown, then how do you know?

[LuvRPgrl]

Other than dashing some senseless hopes this administration has committed some crimes and misdemeanors for which they will have hell to pay? Psssssssssh. Ridiculous. Investigations? Carry on and spend your millions, possibly billions. In a perfect world the reichwingers would still be paying off the national debt for the senseless trials of the Big Dog.

:laugh2::laugh2::laugh2:

Psychoblues

Well, ;you know, its the tax money that will pay for the investigations (Billions? a bit melodramatic isnt it?), and that tax money is mostly coming from the rich, and it will be non rich people receiving that money, so your ultimate goal of the rich giving their money to the not so rich will be accomplished, only problem is they will have to actually work for it.

[Psychoblues]

LOL, you are so funny. !!

"THERE ARE REAL CRIMES....SOME UNKNOWN..."

If they are unknown, then how do you know?

You don't read or keep up well, do you, luvrgrl. The "unknown" part of my statement was reflective of the nations that gwb and tricky dick cannot get close to as there are pending seize and arrest warrants issued for them. We know some of those countries and we don't know others and that's why these characters don't travel abroad. But, you pose an interesting observation. There probably are many crimes that have been committed in the name of the USA and directly connected to the dynamic duo that we are not aware of but other countries are intensely aware of and await their chances for justice. Another reason for staying here in the USA, eh?

Psychoblues

[red states rule]

You don't read or keep up well, do you, luvrgrl. The "unknown" part of my statement was reflective of the nations that gwb and tricky dick cannot get close to as there are pending seize and arrest warrants issued for them. We know some of those countries and we don't know others and that's why these characters don't travel abroad. But, you pose an interesting observation. There probably are many crimes that have been committed in the name of the USA and directly connected to the dynamic duo that we are not aware of but other countries are intensely aware of and await their chances for justice. Another reason for staying here in the USA, eh?

Psychoblues

So PB you do not care there are a couple of hundred people are dead; thousands of assualt weapons unaccounted for due to Holder and Obama running an illegal gun running operation.

You do not care Holder's own testimony has been proven to be a lie by official briefings he was given on the operation

But you do care about protecting and ignoring all this simply because they are fellow liberals like yourself. I wonder how you would be responding to this if the Bush administration was the ones caught doing this?

[red states rule]

Au contraire', Kath. I, too, share your anger except that I don't believe for a second that your anger overrides your petty partisanship. I didn't meet you just yesterday. We are both partisan and this is a partisan board and that's a natural American FACT. I've been angry since December 20, 2000, and I will probably continue to carry that chip on my shoulder for a while yet. I'm not alone by a long shot. History will not be kind to the appointment made on that day. But, I guess Supreme Court injustices and war crimes are not comparable to blow jobs in the White House. I digress.

We don't know much about all this at this time and due to clever classifications may never know much about it. Serious as it may be, I continue to believe it's all a bunch of overblown and uneducated reichwing bullshit. Lord knows we've heard our share of that for about 20 years now.

Psychoblues




http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/lb1005cd20111004080422.jpg

[LuvRPgrl]

You don't read or keep up well, do you, luvrgrl. The "unknown" part of my statement was reflective of the nations that gwb and tricky dick cannot get close to as there are pending seize and arrest warrants issued for them. We know some of those countries and we don't know others and that's why these characters don't travel abroad. But, you pose an interesting observation. There probably are many crimes that have been committed in the name of the USA and directly connected to the dynamic duo that we are not aware of but other countries are intensely aware of and await their chances for justice. Another reason for staying here in the USA, eh?

Psychoblues


hahhahah, do you think anybody believes any of that?

[Psychoblues]

hahhahah, do you think anybody believes any of that?

gwb and darth cheney do. hahahahah

Psychoblues

[darin]

Other than dashing some senseless hopes this administration has committed some crimes and misdemeanors for which they will have hell to pay? Psssssssssh. Ridiculous. Investigations? Carry on and spend your millions, possibly billions. In a perfect world the reichwingers would still be paying off the national debt for the senseless trials of the Big Dog.

:laugh2::laugh2::laugh2:

Psychoblues

Logical Fallacy. You attack the messenger as a way to distract from the message / so to avoid addressing the message.

It's like this (this is an EXAMPLE, PB. By "Example" i mean it's a verbal illustration of what your reply is LIKE, it is not saying you said this, okay? Just to be sure, I asked my 9 year old if he understood the difference of 'example' or associative illustration. He understood, so I think you MAY not fly off the handle):


Anybody: "Hitler says the sky is blue"
Psychoblues: "Hitler?? You are quoting HITLER??? Why would you believe such a shitbag??"

You clearly enjoy attacking the source of a message so you don't have to debate the facts contained IN the message.

[Kathianne]

Petty partisanship? Hardly. Seems the media is awakening for some reason. Anyone smell, Pulitzer?

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-atf-guns-20111009,0,6431788.story


Fast and Furious weapons were found in Mexico cartel enforcer's home

Guns illegally purchased under the ATF operation were found in April hidden in violence-plagued Ciudad Juarez, Mexico, court records show.

By Richard A. Serrano, Washington Bureau

8:46 PM PDT, October 8, 2011

Reporting from Washington






High-powered assault weapons illegally purchased under the ATF's Fast and Furious program in Phoenix ended up in a home belonging to the purported top Sinaloa cartel enforcer in Ciudad Juarez, Mexico, whose organization was terrorizing that city with the worst violence in the Mexican drug wars.

In all, 100 assault weapons acquired under Fast and Furious were transported 350 miles from Phoenix to El Paso, making that West Texas city a central hub for gun traffickers. Forty of the weapons made it across the border and into the arsenal of Jose Antonio Torres Marrufo, a feared cartel leader in Ciudad Juarez, according to federal court records and trace documents from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.

The smugglers' tactics — quickly moving the weapons far from ATF agents in southern Arizona, where it had been assumed they would circulate — vividly demonstrate that what had been viewed as a local problem was much larger. Six other Fast and Furious guns destined for El Paso were recovered in Columbus, N.M.

"These Fast and Furious guns were going to Sinaloans, and they are killing everyone down there," said one knowledgeable U.S. government source, who asked for anonymity because of the ongoing investigations. "But that's only how many we know came through Texas. Hundreds more had to get through."

Torres Marrufo, also known as "the Jaguar," has been identified by U.S. authorities as the enforcer for Sinaloa cartel chieftain Joaquin "Chapo" Guzman. The Fast and Furious weapons were found at one of Torres Marrufo's homes April 30 when Mexican police inspected the property. It was unoccupied but "showed signs of recent activity," they said.

The basement had been converted into a gym with a wall covered with built-in mirrors. Behind the mirrors they found a hidden room with the Fast and Furious weapons and dozens more, including an antiaircraft machine gun, a sniper rifle and a grenade launcher.

"We have seized the most important cache of weapons in the history of Ciudad Juarez," Chihuahua state Gov. Cesar Duarte said at the time, though he did not know that many of the weapons came from the U.S. and Fast and Furious.

Torres Marrufo has been indicted in El Paso, but authorities have been unable to locate and arrest him...

[Kathianne]

Atkinson certainly has a running start over the MSM competition, but can't hold a candle to Bob Owens at PJM. The real question now is, will CBS let her pursue or will they cave to White House pressure? LA Times seems likely to pick up the slack if the reins are put on Atkinson:

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-20117305-10391695.html


October 7, 2011 12:40 PM
Deputy AG received detailed Fast and Furious briefing

<dl class="storyBlogByline"><dt class="storyBlogBy">By </dt><dd> Sharyl Attkisson (http://www.cbsnews.com/2102-31727_162-20117305.html?contributor=41919) </dd></dl> http://i.i.com.com/cnwk.1d/i/tim/2011/05/19/Kalashnikov_110519_244x183.jpg (Credit: CBS)
Documents recently turned over by the Justice Department to Congressional investigators indicate that then-Deputy Attorney General Gary Grindler received a detailed briefing on Fast and Furious more than a year and a half ago.

"Deputy Attorney General" is the Justice Department's No. 2 figure (http://www.justice.gov/jmd/eeos/pdfs/doj-org-chart.pdf), directly under Attorney General Eric Holder.


Grindler moved from Deputy Attorney General to a spot as Holder's chief of staff last January.
The briefing Grindler attended was on March 12, 2010 (http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/DOJ_002817.pdf), six months into ATF's Operation Fast and Furious, which allowed thousands of weapons on the street in an attempt to track down Mexican drug cartels. Portions of the documents are redacted.


In handwritten notes about Fast and Furious that are not all legible, Grindler writes about "seizures in Mexico" (http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/DOJ_002818.pdf)and "links to cartel." He also noted "seizures in Mexico" on a map of Phoenix (http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/DOJ_002822.pdf), the home base for Fast and Furious, and Mexico locations where some guns ended up. And Grindler made notations on a photograph (http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/DOJ_002823.pdf)of several dozen rifles.


There is no specific mention of the controversial tactic known as "letting guns walk" which, law enforcement sources say, was the heart of the Fast and Furious case.


Late today, a spokesman for the Justice Department told CBS News that "Much like presentations given in 2010 on the status of ATF's investigative efforts along the SW Border to many others - including a briefing to Chairman Issa within the same timeframe - this one did not get into the operational tactics that have since raised concerns... Indeed, as both the former U.S. Attorney in Arizona and the former Acting Director of ATF (who provided this briefing) have made clear, they did not themselves know the operational details and did not brief Justice officials on them."


Yesterday, the President stated he has full confidence in Holder and reiterated that neither he nor Holder knew of the controversial tactics being used in Fast and Furious. Holder has asked the Inspector General to investigate.


As we reported on the Early Show (http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7383561n&tag=mncol;lst;1), a CBS News Investigation has uncovered allegations of "gunwalking" in ten cities and five states, some of them dating back as far as 2006, under Bush Attorney General Alberto Gonzales.



Read more: http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-20117305-10391695.html#ixzz1aG9MKw11

[Kathianne]

and it's not only Congress or the press that has a problem with what has been carried out, seems the sheriffs have a gripe too. I don't think UPI does a good job of explaining just how this was bungled from beginning to end. While one might wonder why they fail to do that, it's not a great jump to say that the MSM understands that the DOJ, ATF, indeed the administration had goals way beyond those stated:

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2011/10/08/Ariz-sheriffs-want-Fast-Furious-probe/UPI-95971318115197/print/


Ariz. sheriffs want 'Fast & Furious' probe Published: Oct. 8, 2011 at 7:06 PM

PHOENIX, Oct. 8 (UPI) -- Arizona county sheriffs are calling for the president to initiate an independent investigation into a sting operation involving gun trafficking that went awry.

The sting operation, known as "Operation Fast and Furious," was established to ed. they forgot to use the modifier 'ostenibly' catch big-time drug lords responsible for illegally transporting guns in Mexico. The operation, based in Arizona, was carried out by the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.

The guns were sold legally and some were tracked in hopes they might lead investigators to cartel leaders. Instead, most of the firearms were smuggled into Mexico where they have been linked to dozens of crimes.

"I believe that this is a much larger scandal than what took place in Watergate," said Pinal County Sheriff Paul Babeu, president of the Arizona Sheriff's Association, at a Phoenix news conference.

Babeu said the operation was a betrayal that should lead to the removal of Attorney General Eric Holder, The Arizona Republic reported.

During a Thursday news conference, President Barack Obama said Holder "indicated that he was not aware of what was happening in Fast and Furious; certainly I was not. And I think both he and I would have been very unhappy if somebody had suggested that guns were allowed to pass through that could have been prevented by the United States of America."

Babeu accused Holder of delivering false testimony on Capitol Hill.

"Eric Holder, in my opinion, should resign or he needs to be fired," Babeu said. "Nobody in America is above the law, including Eric Holder, including President Obama. There is no king."



Read more: http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2011/10/08/Ariz-sheriffs-want-Fast-Furious-probe/UPI-95971318115197/print/#ixzz1aGBlJr4n

[Psychoblues]

I wonder if it's politics or the booger bear that's haunting you, Kath.

Psychoblues

[red states rule]

I wonder if it's politics or the booger bear that's haunting you, Kath.

Psychoblues

So you don't give a damn when Federal employees are murdered by guns supplied to criminals by the Federal government?

I suspect you would give a damn and would be calling for impeachment hearing if Bush was still President.

But since it is Obama - one of your own - you really don't give a damn PB. Party over country at all times with people like you

[red states rule]

Logical Fallacy. You attack the messenger as a way to distract from the message / so to avoid addressing the message.

It's like this (this is an EXAMPLE, PB. By "Example" i mean it's a verbal illustration of what your reply is LIKE, it is not saying you said this, okay? Just to be sure, I asked my 9 year old if he understood the difference of 'example' or associative illustration. He understood, so I think you MAY not fly off the handle):


Anybody: "Hitler says the sky is blue"
Psychoblues: "Hitler?? You are quoting HITLER??? Why would you believe such a shitbag??"

You clearly enjoy attacking the source of a message so you don't have to debate the facts contained IN the message.





http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/cb100711dAPR20111007064517.jpg

[Psychoblues]

So you don't give a damn when Federal employees are murdered by guns supplied to criminals by the Federal government?

I suspect you would give a damn and would be calling for impeachment hearing if Bush was still President.

But since it is Obama - one of your own - you really don't give a damn PB. Party over country at all times with people like you

I absolutely care deeply about all you accuse me of not caring about and I do so no matter who or what political entity is in power at the time. You constantly run your big piggy mouth not knowing shit from shinola about what you're talking about. I am, however, against fearmongering and using unresolved issues for political purposes. What does it serve to do? It serves to further divide and already shaky population and drives some nuts into taking uncalled for actions because they believed the politically driven rather use common sense and seek out the real truth. You are the worst I've ever seen, rsr, to spread lies, innuendo, total mis-representations, etc. and always for your own sick political purposes. I am really glad that I don't have to live in your skin. I would have ended that misery long ago.

Oh, and I got your neg rep. You fucking coward.

Psychoblues

[Kathianne]

I wonder if it's politics or the booger bear that's haunting you, Kath.

Psychoblues

Look PB, perhaps you should try reading a few newspapers and spend some time watching CNN or something. You really have nothing to say so far, other than name calling. You are better than this, no?

[red states rule]

Look PB, perhaps you should try reading a few newspapers and spend some time watching CNN or something. You really have nothing to say so far, other than name calling. You are better than this, no?

No, he is not

[Psychoblues]

Look PB, perhaps you should try reading a few newspapers and spend some time watching CNN or something. You really have nothing to say so far, other than name calling. You are better than this, no?

Kath, you've known me for a long time. No matter what you are saying here, I also have something to say. I won't go back through all the posts to point out to you the pertinent things that I believe have value to the conversations but for you to say that I have nothing to say but name-calling you are sadly mistaken. If you haven't noticed there are several here that crawl out of the wood works from time to time and do nothing but verbally assault. I don't go looking for them at all but I do respond in kind to their senselessness and I do try to bring them back to the topics. You've got all the proof that you need to verify if you simply pay attention.

You are not being fair to me, Kath, and I never expected that from you. You're better than that.

Psychoblues

[Psychoblues]

Once again, rsr. I got your cowardly remark (neggie)and I don't know how to give you what you've earned from me. Perhaps it's just better to just watch you pass away at some time and do so in all the misery that you have in your heart for everyone else. That's just sad, rsr. Just sad.

Psychoblues

[red states rule]

Once again, rsr. I got your cowardly remark (neggie)and I don't know how to give you what you've earned from me. Perhaps it's just better to just watch you pass away at some time and do so in all the misery that you have in your heart for everyone else. That's just sad, rsr. Just sad.

Psychoblues

PB as a child? :laugh2:


<IFRAME height=315 src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/nojWJ6-XmeQ" frameBorder=0 width=560 allowfullscreen></IFRAME>

[jimnyc]

I absolutely care deeply about all you accuse me of not caring about and I do so no matter who or what political entity is in power at the time.


Kath, you've known me for a long time. No matter what you are saying here, I also have something to say. I won't go back through all the posts to point out to you the pertinent things that I believe have value to the conversations but for you to say that I have nothing to say but name-calling you are sadly mistaken. If you haven't noticed there are several here that crawl out of the wood works from time to time and do nothing but verbally assault. I don't go looking for them at all but I do respond in kind to their senselessness and I do try to bring them back to the topics. You've got all the proof that you need to verify if you simply pay attention.

You are not being fair to me, Kath, and I never expected that from you. You're better than that.

Then if you "absolutely care" regardless of who is in power - where are saying as much about the Obama administration and what has taken place? You'd rather play in circles than just admit the areas where he and his administration are total fuckups and incompetent.

Yeah, yeah, say what you will, but unless it's a total admission of Obama's handling of this matter, save your precious little fingers the abuse of making them type more rhetoric and lies.

[Kathianne]

Kath, you've known me for a long time. No matter what you are saying here, I also have something to say. I won't go back through all the posts to point out to you the pertinent things that I believe have value to the conversations but for you to say that I have nothing to say but name-calling you are sadly mistaken. If you haven't noticed there are several here that crawl out of the wood works from time to time and do nothing but verbally assault. I don't go looking for them at all but I do respond in kind to their senselessness and I do try to bring them back to the topics. You've got all the proof that you need to verify if you simply pay attention.

You are not being fair to me, Kath, and I never expected that from you. You're better than that.

Psychoblues

I disagree about being 'fair.' Notice I said that name calling was all you have been doing, often in long diatribes. Never said it was directed at myself, then again, I don't often do that to you or anyone else. However, I seem to remember a time that you would bring some thoughts to the table; lately all is some video that is nonsense and telling people to look things up that you've brought up. That's not debate or even discussion.

[red states rule]

Members of Law Enforcement now want answers.





Shortly after Attorney General Eric Holder sent a combative letter (http://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2011/10/07/holder_in_letter_to_congress_testimony_truthful_an d_accurate) to Congress yesterday denying he knew about Operation Fast and Furious prior to testimony in May 2011, (despite memos showing Holder was briefed at least five times (http://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2011/10/06/white_house_holder_testimony_consistent_and_truthf ul) in July and August 2010 about the program) ten Arizona sheriffs, including National Sheriff of the Year Paul Babeu, came together to demand (http://www.sheriffpaul.com/arizona-sheriffs-demand-special-counsel-to-investigate-attorney-general-eric-holder-and-the-department-of-justice-for-roles-in-operation-fast-furious/) accountability from Holder for the lethal program that deliberately put 2,000 high powered weapons (http://townhall.com/columnists/katiepavlich/2011/06/15/blood_on_their_hands_giving_guns_to_criminals_was_ the_plan_all_along/page/full/) into the hands of the most dangerous criminals in North America.
Pinal County Sheriff Paul Babeu and nine other elected Sheriffs from across Arizona held a Press Conference today regarding “Operation Fast and Furious.”

Sheriff Paul Babeu, President of the Arizona Sheriffs Association, announced that the gathering of Arizona’s elected Sheriffs is equally represented with five Democrats and five Republicans. “This is not a partisan issue, but a serious public safety issue that threatens the safety of our citizens and our deputies. Our own federal government has armed the very cartels that our law enforcement are fighting with on a daily basis.”

The Sheriffs are demanding the truth from U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder and believe that those responsible should be held criminally accountable for allowing 2,000 guns, including assault weapons and 50 caliber rifles, to be purchased on U.S. soil and then turned over to the drug cartels of Mexico. As a result of their reckless facilitation and distribution of these weapons, our deputies and American citizens may now face the barrel of a gun that was placed in the hands of criminals by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (BATFE) and U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder. Citizens of the United States and Mexico have already been murdered by cartel members who now posses these weapons. There is no doubt more bloodshed will occur on both sides of the border, since over 1,500 weapons still remain unaccounted for.

http://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2011/10/08/ten_arizona_sheriffs_call_for_special_counsel_to_i nvestigate_eric_holder

[Psychoblues]

I disagree about being 'fair.' Notice I said that name calling was all you have been doing, often in long diatribes. Never said it was directed at myself, then again, I don't often do that to you or anyone else. However, I seem to remember a time that you would bring some thoughts to the table; lately all is some video that is nonsense and telling people to look things up that you've brought up. That's not debate or even discussion.

Do you think that blah blah blah is discussion? That's what you're offering here. I'm asking for fairness. You're refusing to even consider.

Psychoblues

[Kathianne]

Do you think that blah blah blah is discussion? That's what you're offering here. I'm asking for fairness. You're refusing to even consider.

Psychoblues

Excuse the bad language, but bullshit. You've just dropped a notch in respect.

[Psychoblues]

Excuse the bad language, but bullshit. You've just dropped a notch in respect.

You say words. Wrong words IMHO. I disagree and I drop a notch in your respect? Blah, blah blah. Show me where and how many times I have only offered video to express my feelings. I think you're just exaggerating, at the very least. But I do give as much as I get. That's an old DP policy.

Psychoblues

[Kathianne]

You say words. Wrong words IMHO. I disagree and I drop a notch in your respect? Blah, blah blah. Show me where and how many times I have only offered video to express my feelings. I think you're just exaggerating, at the very least. But I do give as much as I get. That's an old DP policy.

Psychoblues
Pb, I want you to be respected, I want to respect you. Yet you keep doing this.

Prove your mettle. Post serious questions, read responses, respond to them.

OR

Respond to posts regarding your agreement/disagreement and reasons why. Especially for disagreement be specific on reason.

Gain respect.

[Kathianne]

You say words. Wrong words IMHO. I disagree and I drop a notch in your respect? Blah, blah blah. Show me where and how many times I have only offered video to express my feelings. I think you're just exaggerating, at the very least. But I do give as much as I get. That's an old DP policy.

Psychoblues

For the record, while pb and I disagree, I'd not neg him. I think he posts what he thinks/advocates his pov.

[Psychoblues]

For the record, while pb and I disagree, I'd not neg him. I think he posts what he thinks/advocates his pov.

Thank you, Kath. And I respect you for exactly the same reason.

Psychoblues

[Kathianne]

Thank you, Kath. And I respect you for exactly the same reason.

Psychoblues

Then it would behoove you to not respond negatively anytime I disagree with you. Which would be most of the time. ;)

[Psychoblues]

Then it would behoove you to not respond negatively anytime I disagree with you. Which would be most of the time. ;)

WTF? Are we not friends enough to disagree and continue to respect one another? Behoove or not I'll sure as hell ignore that crazy assed warning!!!!!!!!!!

Psychoblues

[Kathianne]

WTF? Are we not friends enough to disagree and continue to respect one another? Behoove or not I'll sure as hell ignore that crazy assed warning!!!!!!!!!!

Psychoblues

Huh? I'm hoping there's a reason besides that which comes to mind. I'll look for it.

[red states rule]

Just as Obama owns the economy - Holder owns Fast and Furious




Chairman of the House Oversight Committe Darrell Issa has sent (http://oversight.house.gov/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1474&Itemid=29)Attorney General Eric Holder a letter in response to a combative letter (http://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2011/10/07/holder_in_letter_to_congress_testimony_truthful_an d_accurate)sent by Holder late Friday afternoon defending his "truthful and accurate" Congressional testimony from May 3, 2011.

Whether you realize yet or not, you own Fast and Furious. It is your responsibility.


In the letter, Issa isn't buying Holder's latest excuses for "not knowing" about Operation Fast and Furious or the tactics used in the lethal program, saying Holder has reached a disappointing new low

http://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2011/10/10/issa_to_holder_you_own_operation_fast_and_furious

[red states rule]

Pb, I want you to be respected, I want to respect you. Yet you keep doing this.

Prove your mettle. Post serious questions, read responses, respond to them.

OR

Respond to posts regarding your agreement/disagreement and reasons why. Especially for disagreement be specific on reason.

Gain respect.


Welcome to Fantasy Island

[LuvRPgrl]

Welcome to Fantasy Island

Obama is done, stick a fork in him. The economy will do him in, not enough time to turn it around even if he could.
The economy is a dagger in Obamas heart, and Fast and furious is just another hand pushing in the knife.

[red states rule]

Obama is done, stick a fork in him. The economy will do him in, not enough time to turn it around even if he could.
The economy is a dagger in Obamas heart, and Fast and furious is just another hand pushing in the knife.


http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/kn101311dAPR20111012054734.jpg