Teacher penalizes students' test scores for saying "Bless You"

[Little-Acorn]

Some Californians are working hard to maintain the state's sole claim on the title "Granola Country".

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http://abclocal.go.com/kfsn/story?section=news/state&id=8372183

Teacher penalizes students for saying "bless you"

Thursday, September 29, 2011

FRESNO, Calif. (KFSN) -- A Northern California teacher says he doesn't want to hear a common courtesy in his classroom.

He's even lowering students' grades if they say "bless you" after someone sneezes.

Steve Cuckovich says the practice is disrespectful and disruptive. He's banned saying "bless you" in his high school health class in Vacaville.

He even knocked 25 points from one student's grade for saying the phrase in class.

Cuckovich says the policy has nothing to do with religion, but says the phrase is just a outdated practice and disrupts class time.

"When you sneezed in the old days, they thought you were dispelling evil spirits out of your body," Cuckovich said. "So they were saying, 'god bless you' for getting rid of evil spirits. But today, I said what you're doing doesn't really make any sense anymore."

After parents complained about students losing points for saying "bless you", Cuckovich says he decided to stop the practice.

However, the teacher says he will just find another way to discipline students for saying "bless you" in class.

[ConHog]

Some Californians are working hard to maintain the state's sole claim on the title "Granola Country".

--------------------------------------

http://abclocal.go.com/kfsn/story?section=news/state&id=8372183

Teacher penalizes students for saying "bless you"

Thursday, September 29, 2011

FRESNO, Calif. (KFSN) -- A Northern California teacher says he doesn't want to hear a common courtesy in his classroom.

He's even lowering students' grades if they say "bless you" after someone sneezes.

Steve Cuckovich says the practice is disrespectful and disruptive. He's banned saying "bless you" in his high school health class in Vacaville.

He even knocked 25 points from one student's grade for saying the phrase in class.

Cuckovich says the policy has nothing to do with religion, but says the phrase is just a outdated practice and disrupts class time.

"When you sneezed in the old days, they thought you were dispelling evil spirits out of your body," Cuckovich said. "So they were saying, 'god bless you' for getting rid of evil spirits. But today, I said what you're doing doesn't really make any sense anymore."

After parents complained about students losing points for saying "bless you", Cuckovich says he decided to stop the practice.

However, the teacher says he will just find another way to discipline students for saying "bless you" in class.



If that teacher were at my school he would find himself being told by the school board the next instance of him doing so would be the beginning of him facing his own disciplinary action, probably termination. I'm not sure I want someone so stupid and petty teaching children.

[Missileman]

Some Californians are working hard to maintain the state's sole claim on the title "Granola Country".

--------------------------------------

http://abclocal.go.com/kfsn/story?section=news/state&id=8372183

Teacher penalizes students for saying "bless you"

Thursday, September 29, 2011

FRESNO, Calif. (KFSN) -- A Northern California teacher says he doesn't want to hear a common courtesy in his classroom.

He's even lowering students' grades if they say "bless you" after someone sneezes.

Steve Cuckovich says the practice is disrespectful and disruptive. He's banned saying "bless you" in his high school health class in Vacaville.

He even knocked 25 points from one student's grade for saying the phrase in class.

Cuckovich says the policy has nothing to do with religion, but says the phrase is just a outdated practice and disrupts class time.

"When you sneezed in the old days, they thought you were dispelling evil spirits out of your body," Cuckovich said. "So they were saying, 'god bless you' for getting rid of evil spirits. But today, I said what you're doing doesn't really make any sense anymore."

After parents complained about students losing points for saying "bless you", Cuckovich says he decided to stop the practice.

However, the teacher says he will just find another way to discipline students for saying "bless you" in class.

What an asshat!

[Kathianne]

Wow, what a dofus! The public schools I'm in a quite careful of pc stuff, though they certainly know the law and best practices.

Teachers cannot deduct points based on conduct, nor award points for good conduct. They can note observed behavior on remarks part of report card, send students to dean, issue after school/Saturday/and in school suspension. They can also give out 'caught you!' doing something good tickets, collect 25 and get a $10 gift certificate to Best Buy, Movie theater, Target, or school wear-most popular? School wear. LOL!

[ConHog]

Wow, what a dofus! The public schools I'm in a quite careful of pc stuff, though they certainly know the law and best practices.

Teachers cannot deduct points based on conduct, nor award points for good conduct. They can note observed behavior on remarks part of report card, send students to dean, issue after school/Saturday/and in school suspension. They can also give out 'caught you!' doing something good tickets, collect 25 and get a $10 gift certificate to Best Buy, Movie theater, Target, or school wear-most popular? School wear. LOL!

Kath, this kind of bullshit is when teachers who (and I dare include you in this group based off the threads here) are wanting jobs but can't find them and would make GOOD teachers, should be raising hell with the unions to make it easier for schools to get rid of BAD teachers. Instead of protecting even the shittiest of teachers simply b/c they pay union dues.

[Kathianne]

Kath, this kind of bullshit is when teachers who (and I dare include you in this group based off the threads here) are wanting jobs but can't find them and would make GOOD teachers, should be raising hell with the unions to make it easier for schools to get rid of BAD teachers. Instead of protecting even the shittiest of teachers simply b/c they pay union dues.

Thanks for that. I will say though that I'm the product of good upbringing, good schools, and overall good environment. The schools I'm teaching in are pretty much filled with the same. I'm hoping when I get the house sold or walk away from, that I can find a school that needs my skills.

[ConHog]

Thanks for that. I will say though that I'm the product of good upbringing, good schools, and overall good environment. The schools I'm teaching in are pretty much filled with the same. I'm hoping when I get the house sold or walk away from, that I can find a school that needs my skills.

That's what I'm saying, There would be openings for all kinds of good teachers if schools could more easily get rid of bad teachers.

[Kathianne]

That's what I'm saying, There would be openings for all kinds of good teachers if schools could more easily get rid of bad teachers.

I don't know that we are 'saying the same.' In my area, I've been in 5 districts over the past 15 years, most teachers are really good. The awful, are awful, no denying that, but they are very few and far between.

[Missileman]

I don't know that we are 'saying the same.' In my area, I've been in 5 districts over the past 15 years, most teachers are really good. The awful, are awful, no denying that, but they are very few and far between.

The way we've slipped in world rankings, I'm betting there are more lousy teachers than you think, though not necessarily in your district.

[Kathianne]

The way we've slipped in world rankings, I'm betting there are more lousy teachers than you think, though not necessarily in your district.

I'll not disagree with that. I will remind you thought that most of the 'world' doesn't attempt in any manner to 'teach' all, from IQ's of 40-180. We are really the only ones trying to do that.

[Missileman]

I'll not disagree with that. I will remind you thought that most of the 'world' doesn't attempt in any manner to 'teach' all, from IQ's of 40-180. We are really the only ones trying to do that.

That's not something new though is it? We used to be near the top under those same conditions didn't we?

[ConHog]

I don't know that we are 'saying the same.' In my area, I've been in 5 districts over the past 15 years, most teachers are really good. The awful, are awful, no denying that, but they are very few and far between.

I think you're overestimating the number of good teachers there are out there. Or perhaps confusing adequate with good. I don't advocate weeding out just the merely awful teachers, I advocate dumping the teachers who are merely doing enough to keep under the radar. The truly awful ones will take care of themselves eventually, it will take time but they always get found out. The ones who do JUST enough to not be considered horrible though..............

[Kathianne]

I think you're overestimating the number of good teachers there are out there. Or perhaps confusing adequate with good. I don't advocate weeding out just the merely awful teachers, I advocate dumping the teachers who are merely doing enough to keep under the radar. The truly awful ones will take care of themselves eventually, it will take time but they always get found out. The ones who do JUST enough to not be considered horrible though..............

Me too. I'm picking up their lesson plans. I'm quite capable of discerning between busy work and cognitive work. Trust me, it's little different than on the boards. Some folks come for the social, some for the flames, some for information and real opinions.

[ConHog]

Me too. I'm picking up their lesson plans. I'm quite capable of discerning between busy work and cognitive work. Trust me, it's little different than on the boards. Some folks come for the social, some for the flames, some for information and real opinions.

Lesson plans? Many of our teachers at one time wrongly assumed that they didn't have to have those. They never liked me before, but the teachers , some of them, REALLY hate me now. I'm liable to pop in their classes at any time just to see how it's going. I mean ALL of our classes are monitored in real time, and have been for years and anyone who knows the website can go watch whatever they class they want, but as a matter of course the classes are merely recorded in case there is a situation, no one is monitoring every class. And besides a school board member can judge better if they attend the class than they can if they are merely watching online.

[Kathianne]

Lesson plans? Many of our teachers at one time wrongly assumed that they didn't have to have those. They never liked me before, but the teachers , some of them, REALLY hate me now. I'm liable to pop in their classes at any time just to see how it's going. I mean ALL of our classes are monitored in real time, and have been for years and anyone who knows the website can go watch whatever they class they want, but as a matter of course the classes are merely recorded in case there is a situation, no one is monitoring every class. And besides a school board member can judge better if they attend the class than they can if they are merely watching online.

I do wonder if you know how you come off? Seriously some of the best teachers I know regarding grade wise abilities, lower grades, would fail your hard ass approach. You'd replace great teachers then with assholes that wouldn't cave to your nonsense. Great job for the kids.

[ConHog]

I do wonder if you know how you come off? Seriously some of the best teachers I know regarding grade wise abilities, lower grades, would fail your hard ass approach. You'd replace great teachers then with assholes that wouldn't cave to your nonsense. Great job for the kids.


How I come off? I was hired (elected actually it's a free job) to make sure that my neighbors children receive the absolute best education they can. As I've said before we have weak unions, and most of our teachers are pretty good teachers; BUT any group of 100 employees is going to have bad apples. Those bad apples hate me. The others most of them are probably indifferent to me, and the very good teachers like me b/c they are rewarded for doing a good job, and I strive to make sure they have the best resources we can provide them to do that job.

I am an asshole , but only to those who are failing the children. They are the ONLY ones I care about. I wasn't elected to be friends with the teachers.

[Kathianne]

How I come off? I was hired (elected actually it's a free job) to make sure that my neighbors children receive the absolute best education they can. As I've said before we have weak unions, and most of our teachers are pretty good teachers; BUT any group of 100 employees is going to have bad apples. Those bad apples hate me. The others most of them are probably indifferent to me, and the very good teachers like me b/c they are rewarded for doing a good job, and I strive to make sure they have the best resources we can provide them to do that job.

I am an asshole , but only to those who are failing the children. They are the ONLY ones I care about. I wasn't elected to be friends with the teachers.
There
For the sake of the kids, I do hope you are the legend you dream of in your own mind. You are one of the very few. I really like parents that take an interest and get involved. Somehow though I doubt you hear the nuances. I hope I'm wrong.

[ConHog]

There
For the sake of the kids, I do hope you are the legend you dream of in your own mind. You are one of the very few. I really like parents that take an interest and get involved. Somehow though I doubt you hear the nuances. I hope I'm wrong.

legend in my own mind? No, but I do KNOW that I am a damn good school board member. And yes, the kids are priority number one to me, and it frankly pisses me off to see teachers who don't have the same priority.

[DragonStryk72]

Thanks for that. I will say though that I'm the product of good upbringing, good schools, and overall good environment. The schools I'm teaching in are pretty much filled with the same. I'm hoping when I get the house sold or walk away from, that I can find a school that needs my skills.

You should check out Hampton Roads, VA area schools. I seem the recall they're pretty much always looking for people because of how many are mil spouses and get yanked away due to their spouse transferring to another base.

[Kathianne]

You should check out Hampton Roads, VA area schools. I seem the recall they're pretty much always looking for people because of how many are mil spouses and get yanked away due to their spouse transferring to another base.

Thank you! I'm certain my son, moreso his fiance will thank you if such would come to pass. ;)

[DragonStryk72]

Thank you! I'm certain my son, moreso his fiance will thank you if such would come to pass. ;)

For further awesome points for the area, Newport News is pretty cheap for living, as well as Norfolk. Williamsburg is a bit more expensive, not terribly so, but its a really beautiful area, And if you need a job prior to an actual teaching gig, Colonial Williamsburg loves getting teachers due to the historic nature of the place.

[Thunderknuckles]

COCKovich is full of shit. He has an agenda, plain and simple. How many of the world's traditions are based on beliefs that no longer apply in their literal form but are still used because of what they express in terms of human emotion? This sack of progressive shit believes that expressing a desire for another to enjoy good health is disruptive? Bullshit. He has a problem with it because the phrase has religious origins.

:ahole:

[darin]

I wonder if the Asshole in the OP deducts points for 'gesundheit', too. If not, the practice is purely anti-religious.

[Abbey Marie]

The "teacher" in the OP probably wouldn't care if the kids responded "F*** you" to a sneeze. His anti-religious agenda reads loud and clear.

As for the good/bad teachers, we'd have much less of a problem if teachers didn't have to be baby-sitters, counselors, and security guards as well. I don't know how I'd fare if I had to face so many apathetic (at best) kids who clearly have no interest in learning. this is why honors-segregated classes are a must.

Kath: I like your point about the board being similar to the classroom. I can see it. :laugh2:

[logroller]

Lesson plans? Many of our teachers at one time wrongly assumed that they didn't have to have those. They never liked me before, but the teachers , some of them, REALLY hate me now. I'm liable to pop in their classes at any time just to see how it's going. I mean ALL of our classes are monitored in real time, and have been for years and anyone who knows the website can go watch whatever they class they want, but as a matter of course the classes are merely recorded in case there is a situation, no one is monitoring every class. And besides a school board member can judge better if they attend the class than they can if they are merely watching online.

There was a series of experiments on workplace performance done in the 20s and 30s at Hawthorne Works outside Chicago, the variables being break length and frequency, lighting, the presence of obstacles and a variety of others, many were the opposite of each other; yet, they all resulted in higher production for short periods. Coined the Hawthorne Effect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawthorne_effect) in the 50's, it describes how, regardless of the changes made, the added attention of being studied made workers try harder. I wonder if having cameras in the rooms would have a similar effect. Have test scores increased since installing the cameras? I'd wonder too about the additional attention NCLB has brought.

[ConHog]

The "teacher" in the OP probably wouldn't care if the kids responded "F*** you" to a sneeze. His anti-religious agenda reads loud and clear.

As for the good/bad teachers, we'd have much less of a problem if teachers didn't have to be baby-sitters, counselors, and security guards as well. I don't know how I'd fare if I had to face so many apathetic (at best) kids who clearly have no interest in learning. this is why honors-segregated classes are a must.

Kath: I like your point about the board being similar to the classroom. I can see it. :laugh2:

I agree with you 100% , but I wouldn't make it honors segregated. I think we should follow Japan's example, to a degree, and have a two track high school system. One for college bound students, one for career bound students. No shame in going either route, some kids just aren't college material and there ARE jobs that need to be filled that don't require more than a high school education.

[Kathianne]

That's not something new though is it? We used to be near the top under those same conditions didn't we?

But classes were tracked. The 'special ed' kids weren't mainstreamed. If a kid would not behave, they were moved to a segregated classroom. Special ed kids weren't counted in standardized tests, etc....

[ConHog]

But classes were tracked. The 'special ed' kids weren't mainstreamed. If a kid would not behave, they were moved to a segregated classroom. Special ed kids weren't counted in standardized tests, etc....

This isn't a real problem at our school. But it is an issue. I don't think a school should be under ANY obligation to educate a child who has no interest in behaving, and his/her parents won't help solve the issue.

Just kick them out and move on.

[chloe]

But classes were tracked. The 'special ed' kids weren't mainstreamed. If a kid would not behave, they were moved to a segregated classroom. Special ed kids weren't counted in standardized tests, etc....

they are still segregated in utah

[Kathianne]

they are still segregated in utah

Along what lines? To get federal dollars, they have to 'provide the least limited environment' feasible. Based on that 'special student', not the class as a whole.

[chloe]

Along what lines? To get federal dollars, they have to 'provide the least limited environment' feasible. Based on that 'special student', not the class as a whole.

I don't know we have separate schools for retarded kids and delinquent types of kids. My mom does substitutinng I will ask her.

[Abbey Marie]

I agree with you 100% , but I wouldn't make it honors segregated. I think we should follow Japan's example, to a degree, and have a two track high school system. One for college bound students, one for career bound students. No shame in going either route, some kids just aren't college material and there ARE jobs that need to be filled that don't require more than a high school education.

Not sure how this is different from honors-segregated, but I would say that putting kids in a college-bound class is not enough. Too many kids and parents who think they should be college-bound are still going to drag down the class. There needs to be a whole set of classes for kids who have demonstrated both superior academic ability and behavior.

[Kathianne]

I don't know we have separate schools for retarded kids and delinquent types of kids. My mom does substitutinng I will ask her.

If the kids are severe enough, there are those alternatives. Behavior wise they need to at least threaten to bomb/burn down the school or shoot off a gun. Hitting just isn't 'bad enough.'

'Retarded kids' nope, no special schools for them, though the parents might sign off custody to the state or pay for boarding. All public schools I'm aware of have different levels of 'services' for special needs. Least intrusive: mainstreamed with or without aid. Have one or two periods with 'homeroom' where lessons are reviewed and assignments modified if necessary. Pull out times for tests-more time, read aloud the tests, limit choices, modify wording. These kids are 'learning disabled.' Most are normal or above for IQ.

The next level would be 'direct instruction' in classroom with small number, taught by special ed teacher. Material is limited and modified. Tests are geared to lecture and study guides based literally on tests. In high school and middle school they switch classes and teachers. Music, art, PE, etc., are all mainstreamed.

Next level, self-contained special ed classroom. One instructor all day. Multiple aids, but pretty much the same as direct instruction, with the acknowledgment that these kids can't function in open environment, either mentally or emotionally. Still most are mainstreamed for specials and lunch.

Most severe-'multi-needs.' Self-contained. Usually 1 special ed teacher, fewer than 6 students, usually 4-6 aids. Often a nurse or a couple depending on the students needs. Physical and occupational therapists in the room a substantial amount of day. Many of the students are medically fragile, gym is separate for student body, if used at all. All other 'specials' are either done in the class or foregone.

[Kathianne]

Not sure how this is different from honors-segregated, but I would say that putting kids in a college-bound class is not enough. Too many kids and parents who think they should be college-bound are still going to drag down the class. There needs to be a whole set of classes for kids who have demonstrated both superior academic ability and behavior.

To some degree, honors and AP courses accomplish that. Even those who 'opt in' don't stay long, the work is just too difficult and the expectations too high.

But tracking shouldn't be limited to the gifted, the middle IQ kids that behave and work hard, are just as likely to succeed as the honors kids, if given a break from the morons.

[ConHog]

Along what lines? To get federal dollars, they have to 'provide the least limited environment' feasible. Based on that 'special student', not the class as a whole.



that's another thing I don't like. I KNOW it is cold, and I DO feel sorry for some of those kids, but it isn't exactly fair or right to bankrupt a school to "educate" a child who frankly doesn't have a need for said "education"


Example. We had a quadriplegic girl in our school a few years ago. She had several issues, In the 5th grade she had the IQ of a 4 year old and multiple doctors opinions that she would never improve and that her life expectancy was no no more than 5 years. We DID try to block her from attending, but her parents sued and won. It cost our school over a million dollars a year to essentially babysit her once we provided all the medical equipment and personal required to do so. It would have been MUCH cheaper for us to simply hire someone to go babysit her at her home. And I even offered that alternative to her parents. They refused and insisted that she be allowed to attend the same school as the other kids, including transportation. So we had to buy a special van, pay someone to drive it then provide basically a classroom for JUST her outfitted with everything she needed to make it through a day. Just her alone , $1M a year. This for a school that has a budget of $10M a year. She attended 2 years and then passed away.

I'm sorry, but that isn't right.

[ConHog]

To some degree, honors and AP courses accomplish that. Even those who 'opt in' don't stay long, the work is just too difficult and the expectations too high.

But tracking shouldn't be limited to the gifted, the middle IQ kids that behave and work hard, are just as likely to succeed as the honors kids, if given a break from the morons.


You misunderstand, that's why I said follow Japan's lead to a degree, I think the kids themselves should CHOOSE which path they wish to take, I mean you never know a kid who just meanders along might decide in his junior year to get serious about his academics, and I would NOT limit his option. Or hers. In Japan, the schools put you on a path and that's your path.

[Kathianne]

that's another thing I don't like. I KNOW it is cold, and I DO feel sorry for some of those kids, but it isn't exactly fair or right to bankrupt a school to "educate" a child who frankly doesn't have a need for said "education"


Example. We had a quadriplegic girl in our school a few years ago. She had several issues, In the 5th grade she had the IQ of a 4 year old and multiple doctors opinions that she would never improve and that her life expectancy was no no more than 5 years. We DID try to block her from attending, but her parents sued and won. It cost our school over a million dollars a year to essentially babysit her once we provided all the medical equipment and personal required to do so. It would have been MUCH cheaper for us to simply hire someone to go babysit her at her home. And I even offered that alternative to her parents. They refused and insisted that she be allowed to attend the same school as the other kids, including transportation. So we had to buy a special van, pay someone to drive it then provide basically a classroom for JUST her outfitted with everything she needed to make it through a day. Just her alone , $1M a year. This for a school that has a budget of $10M a year. She attended 2 years and then passed away.

I'm sorry, but that isn't right.


Probably the largest unfunded mandate on the local governments, paid for with property taxes. Sheesh! The multi-needs kids do have my heart, however giving their parents 'a break' for 6 hours a day, at enormous costs to the schools is wrong. If the government thinks it's a cost worth providing individually, should be coming from other resources, IMO.

[Abbey Marie]

To some degree, honors and AP courses accomplish that. Even those who 'opt in' don't stay long, the work is just too difficult and the expectations too high.

But tracking shouldn't be limited to the gifted, the middle IQ kids that behave and work hard, are just as likely to succeed as the honors kids, if given a break from the morons.

I like to see anyone who wants to learn given the best opportunity to do so. In my experience, in the public schools, almost everyone who wants to be in the college bound classes can do so, by watering down the curriculum and expectations. By the time those who don't belong fail out, a lot of teacher and class time can be wasted never to be recovered. And then the poor teacher has to defend why someone's kid can't do well.
So far, AP seems to be holding to standards. And getting more popular all the time around here.

[ConHog]

Probably the largest unfunded mandate on the local governments, paid for with property taxes. Sheesh! The multi-needs kids do have my heart, however giving their parents 'a break' for 6 hours a day, at enormous costs to the schools is wrong. If the government thinks it's a cost worth providing individually, should be coming from other resources, IMO.

Exactly. Like I said we offered, through our attorney of course, to hire a specialist to essentially babysit her at her home during normal school hours. Would have cost the school around $100K a year by the time we paid for everything. That was my suggestion, and one that I thought was more than fair, the parents and a court disagreed; and 1200 other children received less education than they might otherwise have because of it.

of course we all have sympathy for both the child and the parents in those situations. But there HAS to be a line where someone says come on that isn't reasonable.

[Kathianne]

Exactly. Like I said we offered, through our attorney of course, to hire a specialist to essentially babysit her at her home during normal school hours. Would have cost the school around $100K a year by the time we paid for everything. That was my suggestion, and one that I thought was more than fair, the parents and a court disagreed; and 1200 other children received less education than they might otherwise have because of it.

of course we all have sympathy for both the child and the parents in those situations. But there HAS to be a line where someone says come on that isn't reasonable.

The only possible recourse I see would be a class action suit by parents of school district-I don't see people doing that-yet seems the only possible way.

[ConHog]

The only possible recourse I see would be a class action suit by parents of school district-I don't see people doing that-yet seems the only possible way.


Not likely because MOST parents aren't even aware when their school is facing something like that.

[Kathianne]

Not likely because MOST parents aren't even aware when their school is facing something like that.

I'd say most around here do know it costs plenty, how much? That they aren't so savvy on, but who would be? Special needs for a district like yours can certainly be nearly a deal breaker. Not as much in urban and environs, but still the costs are killers.

And on the 'empathy side,' I think it unfair, unnecessary, and likely detrimental to take medically fragile children into the germ factories called 'schools.' Ask any adult working in one, from Sept-Oct it's one cold and flu after another-even with flu shots!

In one of the high schools I'm at, there's a girl with CP, other severe brain damage, she weighs less than 70 lbs., she's blind, and has a severe heart problem. She comes and goes from school in a bus with a nurse, who stays all day. Several times an ambulance has had to come this year alone. She appears to be in pain, obviously she's not doing school work. The most interaction she has with anyone outside of the nurse is when an aid will attempt to read to her, but she usually starts groaning or crying so they stop.

[ConHog]

I'd say most around here do know it costs plenty, how much? That they aren't so savvy on, but who would be? Special needs for a district like yours can certainly be nearly a deal breaker. Not as much in urban and environs, but still the costs are killers.

And on the 'empathy side,' I think it unfair, unnecessary, and likely detrimental to take medically fragile children into the germ factories called 'schools.' Ask any adult working in one, from Sept-Oct it's one cold and flu after another-even with flu shots!

In one of the high schools I'm at, there's a girl with CP, other severe brain damage, she weighs less than 70 lbs., she's blind, and has a severe heart problem. She comes and goes from school in a bus with a nurse, who stays all day. Several times an ambulance has had to come this year alone. She appears to be in pain, obviously she's not doing school work. The most interaction she has with anyone outside of the nurse is when an aid will attempt to read to her, but she usually starts groaning or crying so they stop.

Exactly. Now I'm sorry, and I realize that this makes me sound like even more of a cold hearted bastard than some of you already think I am, but that girl has NO need for an education. I mean let's be just a little realistic. She needs a full time caretaker, and even though I don't REALLY think that is the government's responsibility, I AM willing to overlook it. But requiring a school to try to make them feel like "normal" students is ridiculous. And yes, when a single student takes 10% of your yearly budget, that's not good for the other students.

[Kathianne]

Exactly. Now I'm sorry, and I realize that this makes me sound like even more of a cold hearted bastard than some of you already think I am, but that girl has NO need for an education. I mean let's be just a little realistic. She needs a full time caretaker, and even though I don't REALLY think that is the government's responsibility, I AM willing to overlook it. But requiring a school to try to make them feel like "normal" students is ridiculous. And yes, when a single student takes 10% of your yearly budget, that's not good for the other students.

I'm all for educating any young people that can benefit from school. That includes the 'retarded', whether Downs or other forms or causes of retardation. I don't have a problem with schools giving life skills and socialization lessons if that's the best that can be done.

The past week I've been in a classroom with kids suffering from pretty severe autism. Success on this level is so hard to measure, in one case it's a 12 year old that has learned to 'quiet' his barking when signaled with a finger tap. Doesn't sound like a lot, but it is. In many ways these kids are a joy to teach, it's not often that middle schoolers want to hug you! ;) Granted, that is only one child out of 8. Still, that's 8 kids + 2 certified teachers, 3 aids, speech pathologist 1/2 day, occupational therapist 2 hours. That's a lot of specialized staff.

It's a 'unit school district' in 2009 the stats were:


$10,952 per pupil in current expenditures. The district spends 62% on instruction, 36% on support services, and 2% on other elementary and secondary expenditures.

There's no doubt that many special needs kids are costing way more than others. While as a society we may choose to do so, should it be from the local government?