Abortion / Misscarages and the afterlife.

[Noir]

Just pondering as you do, when the thought of the 'soul' came up (it's been a quiet night in work) and more specifically what theists believe happens to the 'souls' of those who died before they lived for whatever reason.

As far as I can see there are three options;

a) they go to a heaven/paradise.
b) They go to hell/damnation.
c) They enter a void of nothigness.

In reverse order;

c seems to make no sense to me from the point of view of a theist.

b seems kinda unfair I think we'd all agree.

a again seems somewhat unfair in a different sense, and much worse than that I think it brings to mind a line of thought (and process) that is both ironic and disastrous.

Anyways, your thoughts?

[ConHog]

Just pondering as you do, when the thought of the 'soul' came up (it's been a quiet night in work) and more specifically what theists believe happens to the 'souls' of those who died before they lived for whatever reason.

As far as I can see there are three options;

a) they go to a heaven/paradise.
b) They go to hell/damnation.
c) They enter a void of nothigness.

In reverse order;

c seems to make no sense to me from the point of view of a theist.

b seems kinda unfair I think we'd all agree.

a again seems somewhat unfair in a different sense, and much worse than that I think it brings to mind a line of thought (and process) that is both ironic and disastrous.

Anyways, your thoughts?

Children and the unborn are blameless for their own sins and therefor go to heaven.

[DragonStryk72]

Just pondering as you do, when the thought of the 'soul' came up (it's been a quiet night in work) and more specifically what theists believe happens to the 'souls' of those who died before they lived for whatever reason.

As far as I can see there are three options;

a) they go to a heaven/paradise.
b) They go to hell/damnation.
c) They enter a void of nothigness.

In reverse order;

c seems to make no sense to me from the point of view of a theist.

b seems kinda unfair I think we'd all agree.

a again seems somewhat unfair in a different sense, and much worse than that I think it brings to mind a line of thought (and process) that is both ironic and disastrous.

Anyways, your thoughts?

Infants and the unborn are blameless, so A, since they never got the chance to commit a sin, or even get as far as childbirth.

Secondary note, Noir. If you are serious about being an athiest, you may want to post fewer religious threads than all of the faithful on the board combined. Just sayin', it's getting to the "doth protest too much" stage. Much more and we'll need to have a come Jesus talk, because you already discuss these things more than any priest I've ever known.... and I attended catholic school for six years

[ConHog]

Infants and the unborn are blameless, so A, since they never got the chance to commit a sin, or even get as far as childbirth.

Secondary note, Noir. If you are serious about being an athiest, you may want to post fewer religious threads than all of the faithful on the board combined. Just sayin', it's getting to the "doth protest too much" stage. Much more and we'll need to have a come Jesus talk, because you already discuss these things more than any priest I've ever known.... and I attended catholic school for six years

yep, noir and JT. I never saw two people discuss something that they allegedly hate so much.

Well cept perhaps all the people who allegedly hate Sarah Palin. :laugh:

[Noir]

Children and the unborn are blameless for their own sins and therefor go to heaven.


Infants and the unborn are blameless, so A, since they never got the chance to commit a sin, or even get as far as childbirth.

Which brings about an interesting thought, how many unborns have abortion docs sent to heaven?


Secondary note, Noir. If you are serious about being an athiest, you may want to post fewer religious threads than all of the faithful on the board combined. Just sayin', it's getting to the "doth protest too much" stage. Much more and we'll need to have a come Jesus talk, because you already discuss these things more than any priest I've ever known.... and I attended catholic school for six years

Why? I find it interesting to disucss, what i believe metaphysically is inconsequential, i just find it interesting to see what other people believe and why, if you think its too much stay out of the threads, otherwise i'm most grateful to hear your perspective

[Missileman]

Children and the unborn are blameless for their own sins and therefor go to heaven.

Wow...that's some test they had to pass to gain entry. Tell me, how exactly does a zygote accept JC as its savior?

[DragonStryk72]

Wow...that's some test they had to pass to gain entry. Tell me, how exactly does a zygote accept JC as its savior?

Okay, explain how the entire universe works. This seems to be what you demand of us, like we somehow have the answers for everything. We're not God it doesn't work that way. Hell, even the Big Bang Theory is scientifically impossible, as is life on Earth, let alone intelligent life.

Being unborn it had no choice at any point, as was stated by both people here, and thus is blameless, as was said by two people. Unless you have evidence to the contrary.

[Missileman]

Okay, explain how the entire universe works. This seems to be what you demand of us, like we somehow have the answers for everything. We're not God it doesn't work that way. Hell, even the Big Bang Theory is scientifically impossible, as is life on Earth, let alone intelligent life.

Being unborn it had no choice at any point, as was stated by both people here, and thus is blameless, as was said by two people. Unless you have evidence to the contrary.

Your religion makes no sense and it's my fault? What happened to all mankind being tainted with Eve's original sin which can only be redeemed through JC? Isn't a basic tenet of Christianity that we're all born sinners? A lot of Christians argue that it isn't enough to be a decent person, JC has to be accepted as savior to get to heaven. These aren't my arguments mind you.

[DragonStryk72]

Your religion makes no sense and it's my fault? What happened to all mankind being tainted with Eve's original sin which can only be redeemed through JC? Isn't a basic tenet of Christianity that we're all born sinners? A lot of Christians argue that it isn't enough to be a decent person, JC has to be accepted as savior to get to heaven. These aren't my arguments mind you.

And your explanation boils down to "A bunch of magic dust that came from nowhere and wasn't put there by anything created the universe"

[Missileman]

And your explanation boils down to "A bunch of magic dust that came from nowhere and wasn't put there by anything created the universe"

Exactly the same as yours sans a magic dude that whipped up a bunch of magic dust from nowhere. But creation is a little off topic. We were talking about what it takes to get a ticket to heaven.

[J.T]

Children and the unborn are blameless for their own sins and therefor go to heaven.

Wrong. They bear the original sin of Adam and Eve and a sinful nature. That's why they can never grow up without being stained with sin and why Jesus is needed.

[J.T]

Hell, even the Big Bang Theory is scientifically impossible, as is life on Earth, let alone intelligent life.


:lol:

And no machine that's heavier than air can ever fly! And the sun revolves around the Earth! And if you sail too far out to sea, you'll fall off!

:rofl:

[Noir]

i can see my point getting somewhat lost, if all unborns go to heaven, would it not be the *right* thing to do (if you believed that) to make sure all unborns are aborted?

[J.T]

i can see my point getting somewhat lost, if all unborns go to heaven, would it not be the *right* thing to do (if you believed that) to make sure all unborns are aborted?

Mormons used to say that. It was how they justified the slaughter of wagon trains. Then someone pointed out the 'Thou Shalt Not Murder' thing- and they started arguing over which OT laws they felt like following.

[Noir]

Mormons used to say that. It was how they justified the slaughter of wagon trains. Then someone pointed out the 'Thou Shalt Not Murder' thing- and they started arguing over which OT laws they felt like following.

One could argue over the laws...personally if i were of that persuasion i would argue a selfless sacrefice.

[J.T]

One could argue the laws, personally if i where of that persuasion i would argue a selfless sacrefice.
If they were sacrificing themselves instead of another human being, perhaps I'd consider entertaining the notion.

[Noir]

If they were sacrificing themselves instead of another human being, perhaps I'd consider entertaining the notion.

Not as such. i.e. I kill 1000 unborns, thats 1000 going to heaven, but i know i'll be going to hell. But imo its worth it, i've sacrificed my possible place in heaven to ensure that 1000 definite do make it.

Twisted? Yes. But if nothing else also logical.

[J.T]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNtnN_DiP3o

[revelarts]

Not as such. i.e. I kill 1000 unborns, thats 1000 going to heaven, but i know i'll be going to hell. But imo its worth it, i've sacrificed my possible place in heaven to ensure that 1000 definite do make it.



Twisted? Yes. But if nothing else also logical.
Noir I think you've hit on one of the main problem with a lot of atheist questions with this example.


Athesit tend to find one or 2 verses and say LOOK since it says this then that and this is Obviously sooo wrong and stoopid. chortle chortle. Rather than looking at the big Picture or seeing obvious countervailing verses or ideas.

But I think Both you an JT know enough about the Bible and christian doctrines to answer your own question here.

But Noir using that logic the Abortion docs vision is to small, He should look for a way to destroy the whole human race in his generation. no more children AT ALL to slip through the cracks left by the abortion industry heaven trips and the churches evangelism and no more Sinners or Atheist.

But you know there's a couple of ways to approach it depending on your theological position.
Someone of an Armenian bent might agree with most of the answers here , That is the Unborn are bound for heaven (for any number of Biblical reasons) But that the Abortion Dr is not acting in Gods will and since the HIGHEST Commandment is "Love God", saving babies for heaven by abortions is making an Idol of the unborn or heaven and making the Dr. a murderer and an Idolator. Not to mention that It's a lack of Faith in God to work things out for the best in the lives of the unborn. AND an obvious disregard for the "free will" of the Children who are the so called concern is of the Abort Doc.. therefore depriving them of life on Earth which God was granting.
Not to mention if someone really felt they understood Hell they wouldn't go there for any price.

Now if your more of a Calvinist then you know that only the unborn children that have been preordained will be saved ANYWAY so it doesn't matter --as far as heaven goes-- whether they die at as a zygote or at 100 yrs old Abortion isn't helping Anyone along. Your just a plain evil murderer looking for an excuse.

One of the main things the Bible teaches is Man anit God, know your place, man doesn't have a clear right to kill others "for a good cuase" except in self defense. That bit of humiltity is a vital piece of morality.

[Noir]

Noir I think you've hit on one of the main problem with most athesit questions with this example.


Athesit tend to find one or 2 verses and say LOOK since it says this then that and this is Obviously sooo wrong and stopid. chortle chortle.

But I think Both you an JT know enough about the B and christian doctrine to answer your own question here.

I don't think i did that at all in this thread =/

Its just logical that if all unborns go to heaven (as has been said in this thread) that abortions guarantee an unborn eternal paradise and whatnot.


But Noir using that logic the Abortion docs vision is to small, He should look for a way to destroy the whole human race in his generation. no more children AT ALL to slip through the cracks left by the abortion industry heaven trips and the churches evangelism and no more Sinners or Atheist.

Exactly! and i am certainly not the first to say it, i can't find the quote right now (sorry) but there is one of a Catholic Bishop who said roughy that 'it would be better for the sun and moon to fall from the sky, and all the earths people perish than one more, i will not say soul shall be lost, but that one more sin is committed' again sorry for the paraphrasing.


But you know there's a couple of ways to approach it depending on your theological position.
Someone of an Armenian bent might agree with most of the answers here , That is the Unborn are bound for heaven (for any number of Biblical reasons) But that the Abortion Dr is not acting in Gods will and since the HIGHEST Commandment is "Love God", saving babies for heaven by abortions is making an Idol of the unborn or heaven and making the Dr. a murderer and an Idolator. Not to mention that It's a lack of Faith in God to work things out for the best in the lives of the unborn. AND an obvious disregard for the "free will" of the Children who are the so called concern is of the Abort Doc.. therefore depriving them of life on Earth which God was granting.
Not to mention if someone really felt they understood Hell they wouldn't go there for any price.

Now if your more of a Calvinist then you know that only the unborn children that have been preordained will be saved ANYWAY so it doesn't matter --as far as heaven goes-- whether they die at as a zygote or at 100 yrs old Abortion isn't helping Anyone along. Your just a plain evil murderer looking for an excuse.

Interesting perspectives, thnaks.


One of the main things the Bible teaches is Man anit God, know your place, man doesn't have a clear right to kill others "for a good cuase" except in self defense. That bit of humiltity is a vital piece of morality.

Indeed, as far as i can tell many peoples religion is really an extension of humanism, reinforceable by divine authority. Its then somewhat bitter to see how many inhumane things their are in their holy books.

[revelarts]

Indeed, as far as i can tell many peoples religion is really an extension of humanism, reinforceable by divine authority....
Id say many people's humanism is a watered down form of religion, reinforced by nothing.



... Its then somewhat bitter to see how many inhumane things their are in their holy books.
I'd have to agree but the same can be said for things done in the name of "Humanity" without a Book, holy or otherwise.

[Noir]

Id say many people's humanism is a watered down form of religion, reinforced by nothing.

But that would imply that being more religious, means being more humane, given its not 'watered down'. Which is obviously not the case. Humanism and Religion are two totally different things. You can have one, both or neither and in no way conflict.


I'd have to agree but the same can be said for things done in the name of "Humanity" without a Book, holy or otherwise.

Indeed, because the problem is dogmatism.

[revelarts]

But that would imply that being more religious, means being more humane, given its not 'watered down'. Which is obviously not the case.

Only if we use the terms Humanitarianism and Humanism interchangeably, which we souldn't.




Humanism and Religion are two totally different things. You can have one, both or neither and in no way conflict.
Yeah, I'll go with that part.



Indeed, because the problem is dogmatism.
Are you sure, I mean dogmatic about that? ;)

[darin]

Wow...that's some test they had to pass to gain entry. Tell me, how exactly does a zygote accept JC as its savior?

Most christians believe people must 'confess with their mouths' Jesus, specifically, to be 'saved'. The older I get the more I think that notion is a little short-sighted. The problem isn't with the absolute Truth of God/Christ. The problem is people started imposing limits upon God.


Wrong. They bear the original sin of Adam and Eve and a sinful nature. That's why they can never grow up without being stained with sin and why Jesus is needed.

That view is supported by scripture, ya know. Except sorta not. Let me explain - most Christians probably believe mankind has no choice but to exist in a sinful state. That is to say, whether they choose things in life which separate them from God, or not - we are forced into sin. Adam and Eve's one act doomed mankind without any choice in the matter from their posterity. Adam and Eve - via the Debil, sure - had the power to condemn all mankind with their singular act - yet Christ was not able to act as atonement for that sin without mankind - individuals - repeating 'the sinner's prayer'. Seems like Christ sure failed in his attempt - based on the suspected majority of souls 'lost' to Christianity.

Other Christians believe our sin's price has been paid through Christ's singular act of atonement.


i can see my point getting somewhat lost, if all unborns go to heaven, would it not be the *right* thing to do (if you believed that) to make sure all unborns are aborted?

Sure seems that way on the surface - except it still sucks to murder them, just to get them there.



One of the main things the Bible teaches is Man anit God, know your place, man doesn't have a clear right to kill others "for a good cuase" except in self defense. That bit of humiltity is a vital piece of morality.

Well said.

[logroller]

One of the main things the Bible teaches is Man anit God, know your place, man doesn't have a clear right to kill others "for a good cuase" except in self defense. That bit of humiltity is a vital piece of morality.

Was Jesus dying on the cross "for a good cause" or "self(less)-defense"?

[revelarts]

Was Jesus dying on the cross "for a good cause" or "self(less)-defense"?
Jesus didn't kill anyone. and if your counting himself well then , I gues if you can rise from the dead in 3 days it doesn't count against you.

[PostmodernProphet]

have you heard about the four year old who had an after death experience while on the operating table?......



But perhaps the most shocking part of Colton's story, the baby he never knew about.
One day while Colton was playing he walked up to his mom, and out of the blue asked, "Mom, I have two sisters, you had a baby die in your tummy didn't you?"
Sonja was shocked and overwhelmed by what her little boy had just said. When she asked him who told him, he said, "she did Mommy, she said she died in your tummy."
Todd and Sonja had never told their son about the miscarriage Sonja had before Colton was born. After all, it was more than a four-year-old would ever need to know.
Colton went on to tell his mom that she was a girl and, "she looked familiar and she started giving me hugs and she was glad to have someone in her family up there."

http://www.kdvr.com/news/kdvr-after-neardeath-experience-boy-writes-book-heaven-is-real-20110210,0,2566980.story


Which brings about an interesting thought, how many unborns have abortion docs sent to heaven?

sort of an atheist Inquisition?......

[Gunny]

Just pondering as you do, when the thought of the 'soul' came up (it's been a quiet night in work) and more specifically what theists believe happens to the 'souls' of those who died before they lived for whatever reason.

As far as I can see there are three options;

a) they go to a heaven/paradise.
b) They go to hell/damnation.
c) They enter a void of nothigness.

In reverse order;

c seems to make no sense to me from the point of view of a theist.

b seems kinda unfair I think we'd all agree.

a again seems somewhat unfair in a different sense, and much worse than that I think it brings to mind a line of thought (and process) that is both ironic and disastrous.

Anyways, your thoughts?

My thought is ... How many threads are you going to post on the same basic topic and change only the thread title?

[LuvRPgrl]

Infants and the unborn are blameless, so A, since they never got the chance to commit a sin, or even get as far as childbirth.

Secondary note, Noir. If you are serious about being an athiest, you may want to post fewer religious threads than all of the faithful on the board combined. Just sayin', it's getting to the "doth protest too much" stage. Much more and we'll need to have a come Jesus talk, because you already discuss these things more than any priest I've ever known.... and I attended catholic school for six years

But then the problem arises, why not just kill everyone before they commit sin, then everyone will go to heaven?

[LuvRPgrl]

Your religion makes no sense and it's my fault? What happened to all mankind being tainted with Eve's original sin which can only be redeemed through JC? Isn't a basic tenet of Christianity that we're all born sinners? A lot of Christians argue that it isn't enough to be a decent person, JC has to be accepted as savior to get to heaven. These aren't my arguments mind you.

And the aborted baby is not yet born, so whats your beef?

[Missileman]

And the aborted baby is not yet born, so whats your beef?

Oh, so it's now your position that a fetus isn't a sinning human being until it's left the mother's body? I'll wager it's not really, which makes the above argument another dishonest attempt to have things both ways.

[LuvRPgrl]

Oh, so it's now your position that a fetus isn't a sinning human being until it's left the mother's body? I'll wager it's not really, which makes the above argument another dishonest attempt to have things both ways.

you mentioned that it is a tenet of Christianity that we are born sinners, I simply pointed out that an aborted baby isnt born yet, thats all.

[Missileman]

you mentioned that it is a tenet of Christianity that we are born sinners, I simply pointed out that an aborted baby isnt born yet, thats all.

And your nit-picking doesn't alter the context of my argument because an infant is no more capable of accepting JC as it's savior for months after it's birth than it was for the weeks before.

[LuvRPgrl]

And your nit-picking doesn't alter the context of my argument because an infant is no more capable of accepting JC as it's savior for months after it's birth than it was for the weeks before.

U might think its nit picking, but to millions of babies it is life or death.

you mentioned that it is a tenet of Christianity that we are born sinners, I simply pointed out that an aborted baby isnt born yet, thats all.

[PostmodernProphet]

U might think its nit picking, but to millions of babies it is life or death.

you mentioned that it is a tenet of Christianity that we are born sinners, I simply pointed out that an aborted baby isnt born yet, thats all.

you might also point out to him that there is no tenet of Christianity that we should kill sinners even after they are born......

[LuvRPgrl]

you might also point out to him that there is no tenet of Christianity that we should kill sinners even after they are born......

You think he couild handle two points at the same time?? :)

To be honest, MM can be very stubborn and narrow minded, but at the same time, a pit bull, and I really like it when he is on my side of any debate and not the enemy.