Cops Mace Peaceful Protestor with Camera

[J.T]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=moD2JnGTToA


And the land of the free...

[ConHog]

That video made me laugh.

And how you could make out that ANYONE in that video was being peaceful, or not, is beyond me. And how about some context, what happened before the filming began?

[J.T]

That video made me laugh.

You always did strike me as the jackbooted type.

[ConHog]

You always did strike me as the jackbooted type.

No I just think it's funny to see how people react to being pepper sprayed. Soft ass civvies.

[SassyLady]

Who sprayed who? It's hard to tell in that video cause I saw policemen reacting also ... not quite as dramatically, but where does it show a policeman that sprayed anyone? Could have been one of their own trying to cause a bigger scene.

Who sprayed who? It's hard to tell in that video cause I saw policemen reacting also ... not quite as dramatically, but where does it show a policeman that sprayed anyone? Could have been one of their own trying to cause a bigger scene.

And I am a jackboot type:

2487

[J.T]

Who sprayed who? It's hard to tell in that video cause I saw policemen reacting also ... not quite as dramatically, but where does it show a policeman that sprayed anyone? Could have been one of their own trying to cause a bigger scene.
Watch the two in White (with the black caps) as they approach and pause at 0:20

Perhaps it's just hard to see when you don't want to?

[SassyLady]

Was looking at cops in dark uniforms ... never even watched those in the lighter uniforms. Guess I'm not that experienced with cop uniforms.

I do have to admit that was stupid ... and he even sprayed his fellow cops.

[ConHog]

I love these kinds of videos.


Here's another one, listen to this bitch scream


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ec77lo7a87E&feature=related

Here's one of a female soldier being trained.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7iyhKwU2vE&feature=related

[Gaffer]

Mace does not differentiate between good guys and bad guys. It's only purpose is to disperse crowds that are getting out of hand. I never used mace and I carried it for over eight years. Anyone I was working with that used it was on his own when it came to cuffing the perp. There's nothing mace can do that a nightstick won't do better and only the bad guy suffers the effects.

[ConHog]

Mace does not differentiate between good guys and bad guys. It's only purpose is to disperse crowds that are getting out of hand. I never used mace and I carried it for over eight years. Anyone I was working with that used it was on his own when it came to cuffing the perp. There's nothing mace can do that a nightstick won't do better and only the bad guy suffers the effects.

That's the same reason chemical weapons were outlawed for use during war times. Everyone was tired of their chemicals being blown right back in their own faces lol

[J.T]

I love these kinds of videos.
No surprise there. You always struck me as the sort who'd love to beat unarmed innocent civilians to feel big and strong.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=5rbXfelyIoM



I'm surprised you haven't joined the [T]SA so you can strip search the elderly and put your hand down babies' diapers. I'm sure you'd get a kick out the power.

[ConHog]

No surprise there. You always struck me as the sort who'd love to beat unarmed innocent civilians to feel big and strong.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=5rbXfelyIoM




I'm surprised you haven't joined the [T]SA so you can strip search the elderly and put your hand down babies' diapers. I'm sure you'd get a kick out the power.

LOL You're such a child.

A tazing might do you some good.


No surprise there. You always struck me as the sort who'd love to beat unarmed innocent civilians to feel big and strong.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=5rbXfelyIoM




I'm surprised you haven't joined the [T]SA so you can strip search the elderly and put your hand down babies' diapers. I'm sure you'd get a kick out the power.

You know. I LOVE how you post video after video of people acting like total fucking animals and then point to the way police reacted and say " look bad police.........." If you had ANY balls at all I'd dare you to put on a uniform and do the job, but I know you're nothing but a sackless piece of shit blowhard coward so you'd never do that.

[NightTrain]

You know. I LOVE how you post video after video of people acting like total fucking animals and then point to the way police reacted and say " look bad police.........." If you had ANY balls at all I'd dare you to put on a uniform and do the job, but I know you're nothing but a sackless piece of shit blowhard coward so you'd never do that.


Well, I don't know JT personally, but judging from his posts he's a young punk that doesn't know any better. I've been out of the loop for a while but I think we've all seen his type roll through here.

He'll get burned out from getting beaten from wall to wall unless he's as mindless as PyschoBabble (which I don't think he is, quite yet : give him 10 years with cheap vodka to transform)

Personally, I enjoy the hell out of a good tazering or spraying of an unruly criminal. As does most of America.

Fuck with the Bull, you get the horn. Don't be a dipshit when you get caught doing something stupid and you won't get the 100,000 volts of dipshit-be-nice goodness.

[ConHog]

Well, I don't know JT personally, but judging from his posts he's a young punk that doesn't know any better. I've been out of the loop for a while but I think we've all seen his type roll through here.

He'll get burned out from getting beaten from wall to wall unless he's as mindless as PyschoBabble (which I don't think he is, quite yet : give him 10 years with cheap vodka to transform)

Personally, I enjoy the hell out of a good tazering or spraying of an unruly criminal. As does most of America.

Fuck with the Bull, you get the horn. Don't be a dipshit when you get caught doing something stupid and you won't get the 100,000 volts of dipshit-be-nice goodness.


He's a young punk who CHOOSES not to know any better.

[Noir]

I know one of the Girls who got maced in the face. I guess its purely anicdotal and feel free to disregard this, but all i'll say is that in knowing what she's like she's not the kind of person who would be causing trouble, and indeed has been left quite distraught by the whole event.

Not only was she mazed in the face (most of it went in her mouth) but two policemen then lifted her off her feet and pinned her against a wall, and handcuffed her, before she was then taken to a van and put in a cell for 6 hours, she was told she could make a phone call to a new york number (where non of her family live) and was ignored when she requested a phonebook.

She's said what sickens her most about it is how the Westbro Baptsits are able to do what they at solider funerals etc, and will likey never be treated the way she was.

Also you can see her in that video, wearing a red bandana and blue&white stripy top. At the very start she was asking if her and her friend could leave the barriered area, she said that policeman was looking at her but refused to speak. You can also see her at the end holding her friend who took the spray square in the eyes.

[NightTrain]

He's a young punk who CHOOSES not to know any better.


Those are the best ones to watch doing the Funky Chicken on the ground. Tears of Joy all around.

[ConHog]

Well, I don't know JT personally, but judging from his posts he's a young punk that doesn't know any better. I've been out of the loop for a while but I think we've all seen his type roll through here.

He'll get burned out from getting beaten from wall to wall unless he's as mindless as PyschoBabble (which I don't think he is, quite yet : give him 10 years with cheap vodka to transform)

Personally, I enjoy the hell out of a good tazering or spraying of an unruly criminal. As does most of America.

Fuck with the Bull, you get the horn. Don't be a dipshit when you get caught doing something stupid and you won't get the 100,000 volts of dipshit-be-nice goodness.



My favorite part is when she cries. :laugh2:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MhfIP-gHSY&feature=related

[Gaffer]

I know one of the Girls who got maced in the face. I guess its purely anicdotal and feel free to disregard this, but all i'll say is that in knowing what she's like she's not the kind of person who would be causing trouble, and indeed has been left quite distraught by the whole event.

Not only was she mazed in the face (most of it went in her mouth) but two policemen then lifted her off her feet and pinned her against a wall, and handcuffed her, before she was then taken to a van and put in a cell for 6 hours, she was told she could make a phone call to a new york number (where non of her family live) and was ignored when she requested a phonebook.

She's said what sickens her most about it is how the Westbro Baptsits are able to do what they at solider funerals etc, and will likey never be treated the way she was.

Also you can see her in that video, wearing a red bandana and blue&white stripy top. At the very start she was asking if her and her friend could leave the barriered area, she said that policeman was looking at her but refused to speak. You can also see her at the end holding her friend who took the spray square in the eyes.

What was she doing there in the first place?

[NightTrain]

I know one of the Girls who got maced in the face. I guess its purely anicdotal and feel free to disregard this, but all i'll say is that in knowing what she's like she's not the kind of person who would be causing trouble, and indeed has been left quite distraught by the whole event.

Not only was she mazed in the face (most of it went in her mouth) but two policemen then lifted her off her feet and pinned her against a wall, and handcuffed her, before she was then taken to a van and put in a cell for 6 hours, she was told she could make a phone call to a new york number (where non of her family live) and was ignored when she requested a phonebook.

She's said what sickens her most about it is how the Westbro Baptsits are able to do what they at solider funerals etc, and will likey never be treated the way she was.

Also you can see her in that video, wearing a red bandana and blue&white stripy top. At the very start she was asking if her and her friend could leave the barriered area, she said that policeman was looking at her but refused to speak. You can also see her at the end holding her friend who took the spray square in the eyes.




She should have been smart enough to bail prior to getting maced. If she is as trouble free as you claim she is, then are you claiming that the police launched a surprise assault upon civilians with mace? Please.

It's not rocket science.

I wasn't there but I'm confident that the cops warned her 50 times before she got the spray. She chose to do the Funky Chicken on the pavement.


I'll wager next time the cops tell her to get the hell out of Dodge, she'll be leading the way for the stampeding hippies. Your friend has gained valuable experience that I hope she passes on to her kids and grandkids.

[Noir]

What was she doing there in the first place?

She was protesting against the government bailing out the banks.

She's was also photographing the event as 'living political history'.

[ConHog]

She should have been smart enough to bail prior to getting maced. If she is as trouble free as you claim she is, then are you claiming that the police launched a surprise assault upon civilians with mace? Please.

It's not rocket science.

I wasn't there but I'm confident that the cops warned her 50 times before she got the spray. She chose to do the Funky Chicken on the pavement.


I'll wager next time the cops tell her to get the hell out of Dodge, she'll be leading the way for the stampeding hippies. Your friend has gained valuable experience that I hope she passes on to her kids and grandkids.

Noir and JT are clearly trying to intimate that that crowd was peaceful. Anyone with a half a brain can see that that just isn't so. Now I don't know noir at all, but JT's MO is exactly this. He posts a video of people being anything BUT peaceful and then acts like the police over reacted when they start arresting people. Then he will point to the occasional time when a LEO actually DOES abuse his authority and tries to play that as off as meaning ALL LEOs abuse their authority ALL the time. And of course if you don't agree with him you by God (except he allegedly doesn't believe in God) are a jack booted thug who wants to take everyone's freedoms away from them for no good reason.

[J.T]

Personally, I enjoy the hell out of a good tazering or spraying of an unruly criminal.

Holding a camera makes one an 'unruly criminal'? :rolleyes:

[Gaffer]

She was protesting against the government bailing out the banks.

She's was also photographing the event as 'living political history'.

Then she wasn't an innocent bystander. Sucks to be her. She now has a police record.

[Noir]

She should have been smart enough to bail prior to getting maced. If she is as trouble free as you claim she is, then are you claiming that the police launched a surprise assault upon civilians with mace? Please.

It's not rocket science.

I wasn't there but I'm confident that the cops warned her 50 times before she got the spray. She chose to do the Funky Chicken on the pavement.


I'll wager next time the cops tell her to get the hell out of Dodge, she'll be leading the way for the stampeding hippies. Your friend has gained valuable experience that I hope she passes on to her kids and grandkids.

She was asking to leave the zone, (you can just make that out at the start of the video) and you can see her just before the macing, she was standing there not doing anything. please just look at the video and don't assume that she must having known she was about to be maced, because she clearly had no clue.

[J.T]

What was she doing there in the first place?

Would you ask that same question if the next TEA rally were broken up with mace, tear gas, and batons?

[ConHog]

She was protesting against the government bailing out the banks.

She's was also photographing the event as 'living political history'.

That looked like ANYTHING but a peaceful protest against government bailouts of banks.


Would you ask that same question if the next TEA rally were broken up with mace, tear gas, and batons?

Can you post an example of a Tea Party rally where the police have showed up and told the crowd to disperse and instead of dispersing the idiots railed against the police? Because if you can, I will say there are some Tea Partiers who deserve to be tazed and or pepper sprayed.


Holding a camera makes one an 'unruly criminal'? :rolleyes:

Not leaving when the police tell you to makes one an unruly criminal. You're not so stupid as to beleive that was a peaceful protest.


You usually have that option.



Competition.

Competition? Even though I agree to a very small extent, most American manufacturers move overseas to positively effect their profit margins and for NO other reason. And they are unapologetic and without shame about it. Yep, greed moves them around for profit considerations, period. They are sure as hell not interested in economically and industrially developing Manchuria or anywhere else. And they are sure as hell not interested in whether or not they destroy American towns, jobs, and cheat on taxes till the very end. Competition for what? To see just who can be the most evil and destructive to America?

Psychoblues


^They're not. And I must say what an amazing anecdote. :rolleyes:

Over your head, uh?


Psychoblues

[fj1200]

That looked like ANYTHING but a peaceful protest against government bailouts of banks.

Yeah it looks like a whole heap of confusion to me. i don't know what was happening in the distance but it looked to me like most of the people in the foreground where looking down the street at something and shouting about it.

My friend said that she said loudly but calmly if her and her friend could leave. and she was stood at least 5 foot back from the barrier, literally doing nothing when she was sprayed.


Not leaving when the police tell you to makes one an unruly criminal. You're not so stupid as to beleive that was a peaceful protest.

She ASKED to leave, and the policeman in front of her holding the red barrier IGNORED her.


Uh, yeash. Just like it seems that you would oppose a fair day's pay for a fair day's work. Your argument is so full of holes and misunderstandings and assumptions that I have no idea where to start with your intentional ignorance other than to say, carry on and good luck to you. You'll be needing it.

Of course businesses exist to make money. I have NO quarrel with that other than I also expect them to provide high quality goods and services with some moral compass and conscience in the environment where they exist. That, fj2000, is just another raw meat sound bite for the already brain damaged dogs that want to listen to your kind of completely false horseshit. Got more of that? I know you do!!!!!!!!!!! I've always thought much higher of you than that

WTF are you talking about? I specifically destroyed err, rebutted your post and that's all you offer? Your entire position rests on no more than, "GREED!!!! :eek:" and you can't fathom anything that places the blame of our plight on policies that you would support. I don't expect business to provide moral compass/conscience/blah blah blah, I expect people to provide that. I can separate the two, it seems that you cannot.


Was that a private park or a public one? Were there any tollways on the way or were the roads public as well?

Sheesh.

What a dumb comment.

[ConHog]

Yeah it looks like a whole heap of confusion to me. i don't know what was happening in the distance but it looked to me like most of the people in the foreground where looking down the street at something and shouting about it.

My friend said that she said loudly but calmly if her and her friend could leave. and she was stood at least 5 foot back from the barrier, literally doing nothing when she was sprayed.

Well, I have NO idea what happened in that video, hell it's hard to tell. Now take that feeling of confusion and not sure what is going on and picture for a minute that you are the police officer on the scene and imagine how YOU would react. I've been there. When a crowd looks like it's going out of control and their anger is aimed primarily at YOU and it's no fun. What are you supposed to do?

All I have is your word that your friend asked to leave. It sounds like she asked after the decision was already made to affect arrests. Too bad. You know the old saying "if you hang with dogs, expect to get fleas"

[Gaffer]

She was asking to leave the zone, (you can just make that out at the start of the video) and you can see her just before the macing, she was standing there not doing anything. please just look at the video and don't assume that she must having known she was about to be maced, because she clearly had no clue.

She didn't know she was about to be maced, but she was there to take part in the demonstration and film it. She chose to hang with a bunch of losers and paid the price. Hopefully she learned from it. Hanging with left wing nuts will get you maced and thrown in jail.

[ConHog]

She didn't know she was about to be maced, but she was there to take part in the demonstration and film it. She chose to hang with a bunch of losers and paid the price. Hopefully she learned from it. Hanging with left wing nuts will get you maced and thrown in jail.

To be fair, hanging out with right wing nuts who don't know to leave when the cops show up can get you maced/tazed to.

[Noir]

Well, I have NO idea what happened in that video, hell it's hard to tell. Now take that feeling of confusion and not sure what is going on and picture for a minute that you are the police officer on the scene and imagine how YOU would react. I've been there. When a crowd looks like it's going out of control and their anger is aimed primarily at YOU and it's no fun. What are you supposed to do?

All I have is your word that your friend asked to leave. It sounds like she asked after the decision was already made to affect arrests. Too bad. You know the old saying "if you hang with dogs, expect to get fleas"

So because there is confusion its okay for police to mace someone who has no knowledge they are about to be maced?

and yes you have to take my word for her (as i am taking hers) but i don't think the "she was already told she was going to be arrested' thing makes sense, since there is a women in black (who my friend steps back to let past) who was able to leave the zone without incident after the mace had been sprayed. One would assume that if everyone who was being held was being mazed to be arrested and wasn't allowed to leave then she would have been arrested, no?

Personally i think she's just got stupidly unlucky, but that doesn't alter the fact that some cop decided to spray mace over half a dozen people, at least one of which was 5 foot back and literally just standing there.


She didn't know she was about to be maced, but she was there to take part in the demonstration and film it. She chose to hang with a bunch of losers and paid the price. Hopefully she learned from it. Hanging with left wing nuts will get you maced and thrown in jail.

Left wing nuts?
Erm, her and the friends she was with are not left wing or socialist in the slightest. Politically she was there to protest the socialisation of the banks, which she thinks is the government overstepping its role.


Uh, yeash. Just like it seems that you would oppose a fair day's pay for a fair day's work. Your argument is so full of holes and misunderstandings and assumptions that I have no idea where to start with your intentional ignorance other than to say, carry on and good luck to you. You'll be needing it.

Of course businesses exist to make money. I have NO quarrel with that other than I also expect them to provide high quality goods and services with some moral compass and conscience in the environment where they exist. That, fj2000, is just another raw meat sound bite for the already brain damaged dogs that want to listen to your kind of completely false horseshit. Got more of that? I know you do!!!!!!!!!!! I've always thought much higher of you than that

WTF are you talking about? I specifically destroyed err, rebutted your post and that's all you offer? Your entire position rests on no more than, "GREED!!!! :eek:" and you can't fathom anything that places the blame of our plight on policies that you would support. I don't expect business to provide moral compass/conscience/blah blah blah, I expect people to provide that. I can separate the two, it seems that you cannot.


Was that a private park or a public one? Were there any tollways on the way or were the roads public as well?

Sheesh.

What a dumb comment.

[J.T]

Not leaving when the police tell you to makes one an unruly criminal.

So you don't believe in the right to assembly in a public space?

You would have loved the CCCP


Well, I have NO idea what happened in that video

Try watching it. Two officers in white walk up and one maces several persons who are standing around watching something going on off-screen. Then the cop turns around, and waltzes into the crowd.

[ConHog]

So because there is confusion its okay for police to mace someone who has no knowledge they are about to be maced?

and yes you have to take my word for her (as i am taking hers) but i don't think the "she was already told she was going to be arrested' thing makes sense, since there is a women in black (who my friend steps back to let past) who was able to leave the zone without incident after the mace had been sprayed. One would assume that if everyone who was being held was being mazed to be arrested and wasn't allowed to leave then she would have been arrested, no?

Personally i think she's just got stupidly unlucky, but that doesn't alter the fact that some cop decided to spray mace over half a dozen people, at least one of which was 5 foot back and literally just standing there.



No because there is confusion LEOs use the tools they have to control a crowd. I know you're suggesting that they shouldn't have done anything, but that isn't going to happen.

Oh, and you keep saying she didn't know she was going to be maced. First of all, it's pepper spray not mace, but that's beside the point. Secondly. The police aren't required to make a formal announcement so no "attention people we are going to pepper spray you." However, I would bet that there was at least some indications of what was getting ready to happen. Just because you can't see it in that video doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

Oh, and you're friend didn't have bad luck either. She CHOSE to be there, that means only she is responsible for what happened to her.


So you don't believe in the right to assembly in a public space?

You would have loved the CCCP



Try watching it. Two officers in white walk up and one maces several persons who are standing around watching something going on off-screen. Then the cop turns around, and waltzes into the crowd.

Stop it JT, just make ONE fucking attempt at honest discussion. Hell little man, you might even discover that you like it.

It's PEPPER SPRAY , not mace.

and that was NOT a PEACEFUL protest. You have the right to PEACEFULLY assemble. You don't have the right to behave any fucking way you want.

[Noir]

No because there is confusion LEOs use the tools they have to control a crowd. I know you're suggesting that they shouldn't have done anything, but that isn't going to happen.

Oh, and you keep saying she didn't know she was going to be maced. First of all, it's pepper spray not mace, but that's beside the point. Secondly. The police aren't required to make a formal announcement so no "attention people we are going to pepper spray you." However, I would bet that there was at least some indications of what was getting ready to happen. Just because you can't see it in that video doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

Oh, and you're friend didn't have bad luck either. She CHOSE to be there, that means only she is responsible for what happened to her.

Well they successfully 'brought under control' a girl who wanted to leave and was standing about as far back from the front as she could lol.

She also CHOSE to leave, but that option was denied to her, and as she said to me, if she thought she was going to be sprayed with anything she'd of turned and faced the wall.

Anyways i think i've said all i really can say about this without us going in circles, but i thought i should contribute her first hand experience on the event. I'm sure that plenty in NYC who have been arrested/tased/sprayed deserved it, or had warning, etc. I'm also sure that plenty who should of been got away with it totally. But my friend told me her account, and just by pure chance there is a video of her in this thread (i hadn't seen it before this thread) and it looks exactly like how she described it to me. Thats more than enough to convince me that she just got unlucky, but life goes on.

[ConHog]

Well they successfully 'brought under control' a girl who wanted to leave and was standing about as far back from the front as she could lol.

She also CHOSE to leave, but that option was denied to her, and as she said to me, if she thought she was going to be sprayed with anything she'd of turned and faced the wall.

Anyways i think i've said all i really can say about this without us going in circles, but i thought i should contribute her first hand experience on the event. I'm sure that plenty in NYC who have been arrested/tased/sprayed deserved it, or had warning, etc. I'm also sure that plenty who should of been got away with it totally. But my friend told me her account, and just by pure chance there is a video of her in this thread (i hadn't seen it before this thread) and it looks exactly like how she described it to me. Thats more than enough to convince me that she just got unlucky, but life goes on.


You know how you can usually tell when someone is lying? When they act as if they are completely without fault in a situation and they have no idea how they "got so unlucky."

Strange that billions of people manage to live their daily lives without every being maced or tazed.

[Noir]

You know how you can usually tell when someone is lying? When they act as if they are completely without fault in a situation and they have no idea how they "got so unlucky."

Strange that billions of people manage to live their daily lives without every being maced or tazed.

Okay just LOOK at the video, please, look. Look where she is standing, how she is saying nothing, not being violent or aggressive, not doing anything except standing somewhere that she is being forced to stand because she asked to leave and when she received no reply she chose to stand there and not start shouting at the policeman or try and force her way out.

Also, a small detail, the policeman was so wild with his pepper spray or whatever that he hit one of the policemen with it, you can even see him pointing to himself to a 2nd policeman telling him about it when he comes back. The 2nd policemen raises his arm over where the pepper spray came from in a kind of 'what was that' motion.

[ConHog]

Okay just LOOK at the video, please, look. Look where she is standing, how she is saying nothing, not being violent or aggressive, not doing anything except standing somewhere that she is being forced to stand because she asked to leave and when she received no reply she chose to stand there and not start shouting at the policeman or try and force her way out.

Also, a small detail, the policeman was so wild with his pepper spray or whatever that he hit one of the policemen with it, you can even see him pointing to himself to a 2nd policeman telling him about it when he comes back. The 2nd policemen raises his arm over where the pepper spray came from in a kind of 'what was that' motion.

And NONE of that would have happened to your friend if she hadn't chosen to be there to begin with. Do you comprehend that?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QoG9UGtooXg&feature=related

[Noir]

And NONE of that would have happened to your friend if she hadn't chosen to be there to begin with. Do you comprehend that?

Yes. I do. The question is, do you think she had the right to leave when she asked?
I think she did.

TBH i don't think the policeman wanted to keep her there as such, given he said nothing, i just don't think he knew what to do, so he stayed quiet.

It would just seem bizarre, would it not, that she was sprayed by the police because of where she was standing, when the police would not let her go anywhere else, no?

[ConHog]

Yes. I do. The question is, do you think she had the right to leave when she asked?
I think she did.

TBH i don't think the policeman wanted to keep her there as such, given he said nothing, i just don't think he knew what to do, so he stayed quiet.

It would just seem bizarre, would it not, that she was sprayed by the police because of where she was standing, when the police would not let her go anywhere else, no?



IF the LEO did NOT tell her she couldn't leave, wouldn't a person with a half of a brain had went ahead and tried to leave if they wanted to leave? I in noway believe your friend's story.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzciYvExVj0&feature=related


Seriously, why would ANYONE resist when that tazer gets pulled out?

[NightTrain]

She was asking to leave the zone, (you can just make that out at the start of the video) and you can see her just before the macing, she was standing there not doing anything. please just look at the video and don't assume that she must having known she was about to be maced, because she clearly had no clue.

Yes, Noir.

But I can assure you that "At the beginning of the video" wasn't the first time the cops warned those people that they were going to be sprayed.

Really, man, think about it.

[ConHog]

Yes, Noir.

But I can assure you that "At the beginning of the video" wasn't the first time the cops warned those people that they were going to be sprayed.

Really, man, think about it.

Already tried to explain that to her. Just like the tazing videos I have been posting. In EVERY case there were MULTIPLE warnings before the tazer was fired. That's how LEOs are trained.

[NightTrain]

Holding a camera makes one an 'unruly criminal'? :rolleyes:


Not dispersing as ordered by the cops makes her subject to tazing or spraying.

She knew the risks, didn't heed the warnings and got exactly what they said would happen.

Who's fault?


Hers.

[Noir]

Yes, Noir.

But I can assure you that "At the beginning of the video" wasn't the first time the cops warned those people that they were going to be sprayed.

Really, man, think about it.

All i can say is that she was not aware of it at all. Maybe the people at the front had been warned, but she told me she had heard nothing about it until it hit her face.

And given the policeman was spraying so wildly he caught another policeman its not inconceivable to think that she was not a target as such, but rather just in an rough area that the policeman decided he was going to spray at.

I'll admit that when she told me about it in text i (somewhat ashamedly now) thought she wasn't telling the whole story, but the video speaks for itself, imo. If none of y'all see it like that, or think she's lying, fair enough.


Not dispersing as ordered by the cops makes her subject to tazing or spraying.

She knew the risks, didn't heed the warnings and got exactly what they said would happen.

Who's fault?


Hers.

Not dispersing? she ASKED to leave, she ASKED to be dispersed. like seriously what else was she meant to do, try and force her way out? I have a feeling that would of made her in the wrong, no?

[NightTrain]

You know how you can usually tell when someone is lying? When they act as if they are completely without fault in a situation and they have no idea how they "got so unlucky."

Strange that billions of people manage to live their daily lives without every being maced or tazed.


Strangely, I've never been anywhere near being tazed or sprayed... then again, I don't run with a mob of hippies in the streets.

Go figure.

[Noir]

IF the LEO did NOT tell her she couldn't leave, wouldn't a person with a half of a brain had went ahead and tried to leave if they wanted to leave? I in noway believe your friend's story.

So you think she should of tried to force her way out? Yeah, that really would of helped.

IMO if she had tried to fight her way out then being sprayed would of been fine, because of what she would of been doing.

But anyways, if you don't believe her, fine.

[ConHog]

Not dispersing? she ASKED to leave, she ASKED to be dispersed. like seriously what else was she meant to do, try and force her way out? I have a feeling that would of made her in the wrong, no?

You keep saying she asked to leave, but IF she did it was probably well after the point where the police decided they weren't just going to let people walk away. However, you said she asked to leave and the cop didn't tell her no. That means she COULD have left. Too bad if she didn't know that.

And again, the police don't have to make sure that every person in a crowd is aware of what they are doing.

Also, stop acting like the LEO was just going crazy with the pepper spray , he sprayed it for about 5 seconds total.


So you think she should of tried to force her way out? Yeah, that really would of helped.

IMO if she had tried to fight her way out then being sprayed would of been fine, because of what she would of been doing.

But anyways, if you don't believe her, fine.

IF you are detained by the police and subsequently ask if you can leave and they don't say "no you are being detained" or something similar, then you can walk/drive away.

[revelarts]

She should have been smart enough to bail prior to getting maced. If she is as trouble free as you claim she is, then are you claiming that the police launched a surprise assault upon civilians with mace? Please.

It's not rocket science.

I wasn't there but I'm confident that the cops warned her 50 times before she got the spray. She chose to do the Funky Chicken on the pavement.


I'll wager next time the cops tell her to get the hell out of Dodge, she'll be leading the way for the stampeding hippies. Your friend has gained valuable experience that I hope she passes on to her kids and grandkids.

We got a few competing paradigms here in the thread overall.
one that thinks the cops are right 99% of the time just becuase they are cops.

Another that says, hey look the cop was wrong this time. Isn't a lot of Policing protest a bit heavy handed.

And then we got the, " I think it's so funny when cops hurt people, the people deserve it becuase they are weak criminals that don't hop and step at the whim of a cop. PLUS they should NEVER go to protest the gov't EVEr cuase cops will taze, mase oop NOT MACE but pepper spray um. And the Cops 1st rule is if it looks like it's getting out of hand, yelling and stuff, then ATTACK 1st. That's the Manly thing to do, young women are dangerous , and Cry REALLY FUNNY!!! HAR HAR.

[NightTrain]

Well they successfully 'brought under control' a girl who wanted to leave and was standing about as far back from the front as she could lol.

She also CHOSE to leave, but that option was denied to her, and as she said to me, if she thought she was going to be sprayed with anything she'd of turned and faced the wall.

Anyways i think i've said all i really can say about this without us going in circles, but i thought i should contribute her first hand experience on the event. I'm sure that plenty in NYC who have been arrested/tased/sprayed deserved it, or had warning, etc. I'm also sure that plenty who should of been got away with it totally. But my friend told me her account, and just by pure chance there is a video of her in this thread (i hadn't seen it before this thread) and it looks exactly like how she described it to me. Thats more than enough to convince me that she just got unlucky, but life goes on.


Yeah, so initially I was all for the protest but then about halfway through when the cops showed up, I was not really behind it... but yeah, I was there. I kept filming and fucked them off.

Then the cops said to leave, but I ignored them for an hour or two or so.... then the fuckers did exactly what they said they would do!

WTF!

[Noir]

You keep saying she asked to leave, but IF she did it was probably well after the point where the police decided they weren't just going to let people walk away. However, you said she asked to leave and the cop didn't tell her no. That means she COULD have left. Too bad if she didn't know that.

And again, the police don't have to make sure that every person in a crowd is aware of what they are doing.

Also, stop acting like the LEO was just going crazy with the pepper spray , he sprayed it for about 5 seconds total.

He was staring at her and didn't speak a word, holding a barrier, and you think she would of tried to walk through him?

Someone should teach these LEOs that its polite to answer a simple question with a simple answer.

and i wouldn't say the guy went crazy, but he clearly caught a policeman with his spray, which implies he was at the least not being too careful.


IF you are detained by the police and subsequently ask if you can leave and they don't say "no you are being detained" or something similar, then you can walk/drive away.

Can you walk though a barrier?

[ConHog]

We got a few competing paradigms here.
one that thinks the cops are right 99% of the time just becuase they are cops.

Athat says, hey look the cop was wrong this time. Isn't a lot of Policing protest a bit heavy handed.

And then we got the, " I think it's so funny when cops hurt people, the people deserve it becuase they are weak criminals that don't hop and step at the whim of a cop. PLUS they should NEVER go to protest the gov't EVEr cuase cops will taze, mase oop NOT MACE but pepper spray um. And the Cops 1st rule is if it looks like it's getting out of hand, yelling and stuff, then ATTACK 1st. That the Manly thing to do, young women are dangerous , and Cry REALLY FUNNY!!! HAR HAR.

Tell me you watched those tazer videos and didn't laugh a bit......

[Noir]

Yeah, so initially I was all for the protest but then about halfway through when the cops showed up, I was not really behind it... but yeah, I was there. I kept filming and fucked them off.

Then the cops said to leave, but I ignored them for an hour or two or so.... then the fuckers did exactly what they said they would do!

WTF!

If thats how you see it, FairPlay.

[ConHog]

He was staring at her and didn't speak a word, holding a barrier, and you think she would of tried to walk through him?

Someone should teach these LEOs that its polite to answer a simple question with a simple answer.

and i wouldn't say the guy went crazy, but he clearly caught a policeman with his spray, which implies he was at the least not being too careful.



Can you walk though a barrier?

Yes, the police often put security barriers up, that doesn't mean shit. If you're free to go, you walk around it.


How do you know the LEO even fucking heard her ask if she could leave? That video shows a madhouse where I doubt anyone could hear anything.

As you've been told for pages now you , eerrr I mean your friend, should be more careful about what "peaceful" protests you, err I mean she attends.

[NightTrain]

We got a few competing paradigms here in the thread overall.
one that thinks the cops are right 99% of the time just becuase they are cops.

Another that says, hey look the cop was wrong this time. Isn't a lot of Policing protest a bit heavy handed.

And then we got the, " I think it's so funny when cops hurt people, the people deserve it becuase they are weak criminals that don't hop and step at the whim of a cop. PLUS they should NEVER go to protest the gov't EVEr cuase cops will taze, mase oop NOT MACE but pepper spray um. And the Cops 1st rule is if it looks like it's getting out of hand, yelling and stuff, then ATTACK 1st. That's the Manly thing to do, young women are dangerous , and Cry REALLY FUNNY!!! HAR HAR.


Not sure what to make of this mess.

Drinking tonight, Rev?


He was staring at her and didn't speak a word, holding a barrier, and you think she would of tried to walk through him?

Someone should teach these LEOs that its polite to answer a simple question with a simple answer.

and i wouldn't say the guy went crazy, but he clearly caught a policeman with his spray, which implies he was at the least not being too careful.



Can you walk though a barrier?


Dude, you have hundreds of hippies yelling and chanting and he's supposed to hear one woman that suddenly realizes she's in a bad situation and has had a change of heart?

I think she needs to own up to the fact that she made a bad judgement call and put herself deliberately into a dangerous situation and paid the price.

Anyone saying differently needs my size 13 boot up their ass.

[Noir]

Yes, the police often put security barriers up, that doesn't mean shit. If you're free to go, you walk around it.


How do you know the LEO even fucking heard her ask if she could leave? That video shows a madhouse where I doubt anyone could hear anything.

As you've been told for pages now you , eerrr I mean your friend, should be more careful about what "peaceful" protests you, err I mean she attends.

Looks like its was wrapped around the building to me, i.e. nowhere to walk around as such,

and i don't get what you mean by the last bit, are you implying that i am a girl from the east coast?


Dude, you have hundreds of hippies yelling and chanting and he's supposed to hear one woman that suddenly realizes she's in a bad situation and has had a change of heart?

I think she needs to own up to the fact that she made a bad judgement call and put herself deliberately into a dangerous situation and paid the price.

Anyone saying differently needs my size 13 boot up their ass.

One women who was 2 foot away from him and he was looking right at?

Though as you say maybe he didn't hear herm who knows.

Alas i'm done with this thread, i've ended up going in circles that i said i wouldn't only a few pages ago.

[fj1200]

That looked like ANYTHING but a peaceful protest against government bailouts of banks.

I hear the anti-globalist anarchist protesters are always peaceful. They hate McDonald's and banks.


My friend said...

So j.t posts a video that happens to include your friend? The world isn't that small.

[NightTrain]

Let me tell you a true story of Timothy Treadwell.

He was a greenie, who firmly believed that he could live among the bears of Alaska without protection because somehow they wouldn't attack him due to his peaceful nature.

Discovery Channel thought he was the next Darwin and breathlessly awaited his new exploits. On camera, the genius Treadwell proclaimed that he didn't own any firearms and that people just didn't understand the nature of Alaskan bears. This despite many warnings from Alaskans who have lived among the bears for years, Timothy scoffed at us for packing our .44s and .50s.

This genius set up camp at the intersection of two major bear trails. No problem.

That night, a bear casually swiped a hole in his tent and ate him, while his girlfriend tried to save him and she ended up getting eaten too.

The only sad part about this story is that the dipshit ended up getting his girlfriend killed.

Your friend, Noir, is completely responsible for the stupid situation she placed herself in, and deserved what she got. Just like Timmy Treadwell did.

Dangerous situation, multiple warnings, ignoring basic instincts to get away..... she deserved it just like Timmy Boy did.

[Noir]

So j.t posts a video that happens to include your friend? The world isn't that small.

Amazingly it is!, its actually kinda crazy lol. She sent me a pic of her handcuff marks, and i saw the tshirt she was wearing and given the story she told me put two and two together (:

May swell upload the pic she sent me - 2488

Also i just realised you were implying i was lying, t'was not very gentlemanly of you, just saying.

[revelarts]

I'm not sure when a healthy respect for the police became, "the COPS are right 99% of the time."
Or when Cops Pepper spray relatively calm women with cameras becuase the cops feel "threatened" since the OTHERS in the crowd are acting a fool, but they are still BUTCH Manly men.

Seems to me that a cop with his organized back-up, pepper spray, night stick, tazer, a gun and the force of law should be there to protect the protesters NOT coral them or seem to be standing at the ready to arrest ANYONE if they the whole group aren't peaceful, quiet and obedient.

But it's been mentioned many times that Cops are people too. Pulled from the general population, So the idea they they are always or even mostly right Baffles me. Makes me laugh really. I'm CONFIDENT that Cops act like animals just as much as the civies. And there actions bear just as much scrutiny as those not in uniform. MORE, IMO. They don't get the benifit of the doubt from me. Let the evidence fall where it may.

Seems to me Many cops are trying to do a decent job, some of them are freaking saints, but the job is getting bent by the drift to more control of the citizens and less respect for American freedoms by the gov't. I've read reports by many older and retired cops who are kind of sickened by what they see as the militarization of the police. Then you got plain old corrupt cops and some whole depts that are corrupt. Then you've Got plain old Piss poor/dum cops who just do a crap job but still hang on to their position. then you've got the Bad apple Cop, not necessarily the organized corrupt type, just a general SOB with a badge and a attitude. who doesn't get put off the force until he messes up so bad that he can't be covered for ...this time.

I've got no idea what the percentages are for the above but one thing is sure they are 100% human.

[NightTrain]

I'm not sure when a healthy respect for the police became, "the COPS are right 99% of the time."
Or when Cops Pepper spray relatively calm women with cameras becuase the cops feel "threatened" since the OTHERS in the crowd are acting a fool, but they are still BUTCH Manly men.

Seems to me that a cop with his organized back-up pepper spray, night stick, tazer, a gun and the force of law should be there to protect the protesters NOT coral them or seem to be standing at the ready to arrest ANYONE if they the whole group aren't peaceful, quiet and obedient.

But it's been mentioned many times that Cops are people too. Pulled from the general population, So the idea they they are always or even mostly right Baffles me. Makes me laugh really. I'm CONFIDENT that Cops act like animals just as much as the civies. And there actions bear just as much scrutiny as those not in uniform. MORE, IMO. They don't get the benifit of the doubt from me. Let the evidence fall where it may.

Seems to me Many cops are trying to do a decent job, some of them are freaking saints, but the job is getting bent by the drift to more control of the citizens and less respect for American freedoms by the gov't. I've read reports by many older and retired cops who are kind of sickened by what they see as the militarization of the police. Then you got plain old corrupt cops and some whole depts that are corrupt. Then you've Got plain old Piss poor/dum cops who just do a crap job but still hang on to their position. then you've got the Bad apple Cop, not necessarily the organized corrupt type, just a general SOB with a badge and a attitude. who doesn't get put off the force until he messes up so bad that he can't be covered for ...this time.

I've got no idea what the percentages are for the above but one thing is sure they are 100% human.


I was wondering when you were going to jump in, Rev. This sort of thing is right up your alley.

You don't know what the general attitude of the crowd was; you only saw a very limited portion of that crowd for a few seconds, so I think we can both agree that your assessment of the situation is very limited at best, yes?

Secondly, those people had been warned multiple times over loudspeaker that they needed to disperse. Don't give some tired bullshit about peaceful assembly; when the cops say you need to go, you need to go or you'll face consequences. We all are big people and know that.


Finally, to reiterate what I already outlined prior, along with other esteemed members of the board, is that she fucking KNEW she should disperse and move along. No one is going to believe that a cop started spraying without warning into a crowd. There had to be hours of warnings given prior.

She knew what she was doing, and paid the piper. The fact that she is bitching about it to Noir is vastly amusing to me, especially since he is sympathetic! LOL

[fj1200]

And the land of the free...

I'm not sure how you make the jump from some cops getting out of hand in the middle of a protest to we're living on the edge of a police state... oh wait.

[NightTrain]

I'm not sure how you make the jump from some cops getting out of hand in the middle of a protest to we're living on the edge of a police state... oh wait.


I'm afraid to come out of my house. It's a zoo out there and the protest may have spread.

[J.T]

Not dispersing as ordered by the cops makes her subject to tazing or spraying.

Oh?

And when did this happen, exactly?

As revelarts was getting at, you can't have it both ways: are the cops right because they're cops like so many of you reflexiely insist, or are they just people in uniform who can be wrong and do bad things (http://www.injusticeeverywhere.com/) like anyone else?

The police say (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/26/nyregion/videos-show-police-using-pepper-spray-at-protest.html?_r=2)protestors digitally manipulated the video to make it look like the women were standing as they appear when they were, in reality several feet away actively preventing the erection of the mesh that the police feel no need to move into place following the macing.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/26/nyregion/videos-show-police-using-pepper-spray-at-protest.html?_r=2


Amazingly it is!, its actually kinda crazy lol. She sent me a pic of her handcuff marks, and i saw the tshirt she was wearing and given the story she told me put two and two together (:

May swell upload the pic she sent me - 2488

Also i just realised you were implying i was lying, t'was not very gentlemanly of you, just saying.

She did? Or did you get it from here:

http://solitudinous.tumblr.com/post/10634593491/i-dont-know-if-you-guys-can-see-that-well-but

?

I'm just waiting to see whether NY ends up telling us later that the trouble-makers were undercover cops like when similar protests against the system were held in in Quebec (http://www.citytv.com/toronto/citynews/news/local/article/16163--quebec-police-admit-protesters-were-undercover-agents-but-deny-wrongdoing) and Toronto (http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=19928).

[NightTrain]

Oh?

And when did this happen, exactly?


It happened exactly at the moment she was ordered to leave.

Right then.


She did? Or did you get it from here:

http://solitudinous.tumblr.com/post/10634593491/i-dont-know-if-you-guys-can-see-that-well-but

?

I'm just waiting to see whether NY ends up telling us later that the trouble-makers were undercover cops like when similar protests against the system were held in in Quebec (http://www.citytv.com/toronto/citynews/news/local/article/16163--quebec-police-admit-protesters-were-undercover-agents-but-deny-wrongdoing) and Toronto (http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=19928).

LOL

Interesting that Noir's friend in UK is actually from NYC.

She'll be glad to know that tazing reduces handcuff marks by 35% according to leading dermatologists.

[logroller]

She was protesting against the government bailing out the banks.

She's was also photographing the event as 'living political history'.

There's an old adage, "Beware what you wish for". Your friend wanted to be in the mix, to make a record of the civil unrest from the front-line, street-level perspective of an aggravated protest. Apparently she considers that 'living political history'...I'd say she got her shot.

[ConHog]

I'm not sure how you make the jump from some cops getting out of hand in the middle of a protest to we're living on the edge of a police state... oh wait.


In layman's terms , JT is a paranoid drama queen.


It happened exactly at the moment she was ordered to leave.

Right then.


That is EXACTLY how I was trained

"Okay boys what you do is yell freeze or I'll shoot, AS you're pulling the trigger."


sarcasm off.

[DragonStryk72]

You always did strike me as the jackbooted type.

So now asking for context and lead up is a "jackboot"? That makes every reporter on the face of the earth a jackboot by your definition.


Watch the two in White (with the black caps) as they approach and pause at 0:20

Perhaps it's just hard to see when you don't want to?

Perhaps it's hard to see cause it's a shitty video that has no context at all? And as well has none provided by you?


No surprise there. You always struck me as the sort who'd love to beat unarmed innocent civilians to feel big and strong.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=5rbXfelyIoM





I'm surprised you haven't joined the [T]SA so you can strip search the elderly and put your hand down babies' diapers. I'm sure you'd get a kick out the power.

Um, okay, here's the thing: he's holding up in the middle of an intersection in NYC. He is not allowed do that, regardless, and frankly, he's fucking lucky it wasn't one of the folks in the traffic he created that got out to grab, cause he'd get off fucking light with just getting held down. Yeah, the cop's knee is on the guy's neck, but clearly not choking him, as the man will not shut the fuck up even when being pinned to the ground and resisting arrest in a crazed manner.

There are rules to peaceful protests, JT, and you damn well know that. Stop acting like there was no provocation, or here's one, offer up some actual god-damned evidence.

Now, moving on to Noir. You actually have some proof via personal experience, so here's my take on this: there was some sort of disturbance in the crowd during the video, though, as mentioned, it was pretty shitty video of the event. If your friend was talking with an officer at the time and did something like touch his shoulder, the cop could have accidentally taken it as an attempt to grab, and automatically gone for the mace. Unfortunately, this happens with emergency responders who have to deal with violence on a daily basis.

In this instance, he was apparently wrong, but the situation in the video looks like there was something else going on down line, so there may be a reason for the reaction. Cops are most worried about unruly crowds because if they do get out of hand, there's usually little they can do, and really, protestors have a habit of insulting the cops when they show up (Not saying your friend did, but possibly one of the fifty dickheads with cameras.

Look I'm one of the last people to say cops are blameless, and I'm not even saying they are here. I lost a friend to a cop's ricochet bullet up here in Albany a few years back. He wasn't doing anything wrong, it was New Year's Eve and he stopped off at a store to pick up wine for a party he was going to, because he was raised to bring a gift for the host when he went to a party at someone's house. Well, when he came, a chase by the cops resulted in a cop unloading his clip into a car that was trying to get away. Why a trained officer would think it was a smart idea to unload his entire clip into a moving car in the middle of the busiest intersection of the city is beyond me, but two of the ricochets hit civilians: A guy across the street got clipped in the leg, and David got hit directly in the heart.

Cops do make mistakes, but people like JT try to act like every incident is proof that the cops are the new gestapo, when that's clearly not the case.

[revelarts]

...There are rules to peaceful protests, ...

what are the rules I don't know um.
According to some here it sounds like the rules say --stay the he-- home and you won't get arrested or hurt.
or if you do show up, don't yell or walk outside of the line AND make sure you have your shirt tucked in.

I just don't get that cops arrest people for talking loud but not doing anything really. The Cop has a gun a night tick pepper spray shield and a pack of guys to back them up. I don't get the Idea that they FEEL threathened by a shirtless guy in shorts holding a flag. Is heckling the police at a protest a crime? can the cops take a few mildly harsh words without getting their backs up? I just don't see a CRIME here. Is their job to protect the people or protect their sense of pride and respect?
In most crimes there must be HARM done. What's the harm here?

the assumption is that the cops told people to get out of the street etc. None of these positive assumptions can be confirmed but in a street protest What's the real HARM with the people being in the street?
"Well they should do what the police say no matter what... or they'll get what good for um... hAR hAR HAr"
Now, um, What is the definition of a police state?

[chloe]

what are the rules I don't know um.


I went to a lecture at school last week about the road to civil rights and the panel actually did discuss rules in peaceful protest and civil disobediance, I guess there are some rules the groups participating in stuff like that follow. Who would have thought that eh?

[jimnyc]

what are the rules I don't know um.

Duh, that's easy - don't break the law! The roads are for cars, not protesters. Blocking the roads so traffic can't move will likely have officers asking you to disperse from the area. Refusing to disperse, and trying to stop them from putting up the blockades as supposedly happened here, might get you a little mace in your eyes and throat.

Why do you need to make it so dramatic as if the police killed hundreds of people? Should they just allow those creating a nuisance to continue making a nuisance of the roads?

[DragonStryk72]

what are the rules I don't know um.
According to some here it sounds like the rules say --stay the he-- home and you won't get arrested or hurt.
or if you do show up, don't yell or walk outside of the line AND make sure you have your shirt tucked in.

I just don't get that cops arrest people for talking loud but not doing anything really. The Cop has a gun a night tick pepper spray shield and a pack of guys to back them up. I don't get the Idea that they FEEL threathened by a shirtless guy in shorts holding a flag. Is heckling the police at a protest a crime? can the cops take a few mildly harsh words without getting their backs up? I just don't see a CRIME here. Is their job to protect the people or protect their sense of pride and respect?
In most crimes there must be HARM done. What's the harm here?

the assumption is that the cops told people to get out of the street etc. None of these positive assumptions can be confirmed but in a street protest What's the real HARM with the people being in the street?
"Well they should do what the police say no matter what... or they'll get what good for um... hAR hAR HAr"
Now, um, What is the definition of a police state?


Well, let's see: Say you're an ambulance in NYC, and now you're stuck in traffic and can't get to a patient in immediate medical need, all cause a bunch of jackasses are blocking up an intersection. Now, let's say you're a firefighter, or any other emergency responder, and suddenly, blocking the intersection for no good reason does have a degree of harm. Who is supposed to die or get seriously injured so they can act like morons in the middle of an intersection, when there are perfectly good sidewalks on all sides?

[ConHog]

Well, let's see: Say you're an ambulance in NYC, and now you're stuck in traffic and can't get to a patient in immediate medical need, all cause a bunch of jackasses are blocking up an intersection. Now, let's say you're a firefighter, or any other emergency responder, and suddenly, blocking the intersection for no good reason does have a degree of harm. Who is supposed to die or get seriously injured so they can act like morons in the middle of an intersection, when there are perfectly good sidewalks on all sides?

I have a right goddammit..................


That's all these people can see, even when they don't actually have the "right" to do what they want to do. The hilarious part is that people like JT are perfectly willing to take actual rights away from others. Laughable.

[ConHog]

Hey JT if you want a clue as to what REAL police abuse looks like


http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2010/dec/08/student-fees-protests-woman-police



Of course my next question on THiS particular video is shouldn't this Muslim looking woman be grateful to the British police for making her feel like she's in a Muslim country? :laugh:

[Psychoblues]

Duh, that's easy - don't break the law! The roads are for cars, not protesters. Blocking the roads so traffic can't move will likely have officers asking you to disperse from the area. Refusing to disperse, and trying to stop them from putting up the blockades as supposedly happened here, might get you a little mace in your eyes and throat.

Why do you need to make it so dramatic as if the police killed hundreds of people? Should they just allow those creating a nuisance to continue making a nuisance of the roads?

The jack boots broke the law, jimbo. Where is the justice? I've watched the video time and again and it is clear that the protesters posed no threat whatsoever to the jerks that involved all the damned violence. I'm used to it, however. I've been a peaceful protester for years and assholes with billy clubs, guns, mace and pepper spray always use their advantages to stifle the American process and guarantees. Pitiful.

Psychoblues

[DragonStryk72]

The jack boots broke the law, jimbo. Where is the justice? I've watched the video time and again and it is clear that the protesters posed no threat whatsoever to the jerks that involved all the damned violence. I'm used to it, however. I've been a peaceful protester for years and assholes with billy clubs, guns, mace and pepper spray always use their advantages to stifle the American process and guarantees. Pitiful.

Psychoblues


Really? You could see an ambulance in that vid? What about a firetruck? Backing up the traffic does have an effect on emergency responders for the vid of protesters in the street. As for the OP vid, like I pointed out earlier, some sort of altercation seemed to have started down the line. It may not be "police state" in so much as "bad accident".

[SassyLady]

Oh?

And when did this happen, exactly?

As revelarts was getting at, you can't have it both ways: are the cops right because they're cops like so many of you reflexiely insist, or are they just people in uniform who can be wrong and do bad things (http://www.injusticeeverywhere.com/) like anyone else?

I'll tell you what my opinion is ... if the general public is not doing anything to cause trouble, then the cops won't be given an opportunity to do anything wrong.

Protesting ... whether peaceful or not, is a disruption of the norm. Cops are trained to be on alert for disruptions of the norm and to take counter measures .... hopefully before the disruption gets totally out of hand and becomes a riot.

I would rather see a cop overreact and spray some pepper spray on a couple of protesters than to see the protest turn into weeks of rioting like we saw in Europe recently.

[SassyLady]

On another note ... why does it seem like all these "peaceful protests" devolve into protesters getting up in the face of the cops ... are they there to protest the cops or the banks? If they want to protest the banks then stand in front of the banks, on the sidewalk and walk up and down the sidewalk with signs. Running down the middle of the street and getting in the face of the cops deliberating trying to provoke them will get a negative result.

I watched more of the videos of this protest and can tell you that there were protesters deliberating trying to provoke a negative outcome.

[logroller]

On another note ... why does it seem like all these "peaceful protests" devolve into protesters getting up in the face of the cops ... are they there to protest the cops or the banks? If they want to protest the banks then stand in front of the banks, on the sidewalk and walk up and down the sidewalk with signs. Running down the middle of the street and getting in the face of the cops deliberating trying to provoke them will get a negative result.

I watched more of the videos of this protest and can tell you that there were protesters deliberating trying to provoke a negative outcome.

I too watched a few of the videos, some did seem a little extreme (from both sides), but that's what it takes to bring about change.(go out with a sign and see how few youtube videos make the evening news) People should be pissed about those bailouts. But as someone else said about messing with the bull (or bear...market); government doesn't take well to public criticism-- especially when those banks are paying huge local taxes ~the cop's salaries. AND getting pepper sprayed is pretty mild IMO. I had a buddy spray me once, just to feel what its like-- it wasn't enjoyable-- but I'd take that over getting my arm twisted, thrown to the ground with knee in the back of my head.

[revelarts]

Duh, that's easy - don't break the law! The roads are for cars, not protesters. Blocking the roads so traffic can't move will likely have officers asking you to disperse from the area. Refusing to disperse, and trying to stop them from putting up the blockades as supposedly happened here, might get you a little mace in your eyes and throat.
Don't break the law, Ok . Jim, If your wife is pregnant you will break the speed limit to get to the hospital and be pissed if a cop takes time to write you a ticket while she's in labor in the back seat. the laws of the road are not Scared, freedom of speech and protest are rights that need to be exercised from time to time, this Wall st Bailout Crap is more important than a small back-up in traffic. And the "rules of the road" can bare to accommodate a few hours out of a few months it seems to me. And some protesters where there to make there point by blocking traffic and to GET arrested to draw attention. and the cops calmly cuffed and walk those folks away without pepper spray or a knee in the throat.



Why do you need to make it so dramatic as if the police killed hundreds of people? Should they just allow those creating a nuisance to continue making a nuisance of the roads? I'm not being dramatic, I asked where is the HARM. But Why do the cops have to kill hundred before you think they've gone to far?


Well, let's see: Say you're an ambulance in NYC, and now you're stuck in traffic and can't get to a patient in immediate medical need, all cause a bunch of jackasses are blocking up an intersection. Now, let's say you're a firefighter, or any other emergency responder, and suddenly, blocking the intersection for no good reason does have a degree of harm. Who is supposed to die or get seriously injured so they can act like morons in the middle of an intersection, when there are perfectly good sidewalks on all sides?
Traffic backed up in NYC, thats a crisis? I see people in cars where I live who don't get out of the way of emergency vehicles cops aren't pepper spraying those drivers. On some of the other videos the protesters where walking FASTER than the traffic. If they are hindering emergency vehicles they where being jerks, the solution is to move them off of the street not pepper spray them in the face so they CAN"T SEE TO GET OFF THE ROAD or not slamm them to the ground in the middle of ROAD take you time cuffing and mill around in the center of the road with a gang of your cop buddies. If the GOAL is a Clear road then Push the protesters off the road. what's the point of the pepper spray and arrest?




I too watched a few of the videos, some did seem a little extreme (from both sides), but that's what it takes to bring about change.(go out with a sign and see how few youtube videos make the evening news) People should be pissed about those bailouts. But as someone else said about messing with the bull (or bear...market); government doesn't take well to public criticism-- especially when those banks are paying huge local taxes ~the cop's salaries. AND getting pepper sprayed is pretty mild IMO. I had a buddy spray me once, just to feel what its like-- it wasn't enjoyable-- but I'd take that over getting my arm twisted, thrown to the ground with knee in the back of my head.
i can agree with that.
That comparison that Train made of the the cops to wild bears didn't seem to be to flattering to the cops to me. Not sure why that was suppose to be compared to going to a protest in the US. Why Should we think we're looking at a pack of Wild Bears when we look at a group of cops? is that a problem for anyone else?

[jimnyc]

Don't break the law, Ok . Jim, If your wife is pregnant you will break the speed limit to get to the hospital and be pissed if a cop takes time to write you a ticket while she's in labor in the back seat. the laws of the road are not Scared, freedom of speech and protest are rights that need to be exercised from time to time this Wall st Bailout Crap is more important than a small back-up in traffic. And the "rules of the road" can be bare to accommodate a few hours out of a few months it seems to me. And some protesters where there to make there point by blocking traffic and to GET arrested to draw attention. and the cops calmly cuffed and walk thoses folks away.

That'll be great when I need to figure out how to deliver a baby myself because a shitload of liberal scumbags are blocking the road.

Bottom line - the roads are for cars. They were breaking the law by blocking traffic. They were asked to disperse. End of story. NOTHING else you write will suddenly make their breaking the law magically lawful.

[jimnyc]

If the GOAL is a Clear road then Push the protesters off the road. what's the point of the pepper spray and arrest?

And what do you do when you are pushing them off of the road and they resist? Then the cops try and corral them with a soft barrier and they try to prevent the police from doing so? They wouldn't stop. But they sure as shit stopped real quick when their eyes and ears were burning a bit! LOL

[ConHog]

And what do you do when you are pushing them off of the road and they resist? Then the cops try and corral them with a soft barrier and they try to prevent the police from doing so? They wouldn't stop. But they sure as shit stopped real quick when their eyes and ears were burning a bit! LOL

All this crying over a little pepper spray. Soft ass crybabies. I remember when the US government made me stand in a room full of tear gas and recite my name rank and social security number. Then wait there breathing that shit in until the rest of my squad did the same.

And I hadn't even broke any laws.

[soupnazi630]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=moD2JnGTToA



And the land of the free...

In this instance your description of " peaceful " protest is obviously very subjective.

It is hard to see or hear what is happening but it seems the police were having trouble controlling the crowd including one civilian in a T shirt who pushed passed the cops.

Mace is harmless get over it.

[soupnazi630]

Mace does not differentiate between good guys and bad guys. It's only purpose is to disperse crowds that are getting out of hand. I never used mace and I carried it for over eight years. Anyone I was working with that used it was on his own when it came to cuffing the perp. There's nothing mace can do that a nightstick won't do better and only the bad guy suffers the effects.
Your knowlegde of Mace is based on limited exprience and Im not disputing your choices to avoid using it.

However it is good for much more than dispersing crowds. It is a very very effective means of controlling combative individuals as well. Yes the possibility always exists of taking out the wrong people but it also takes down the bad guy.

Nightsticks can be taken away and used against you where as a small can is harder to get out of your hand. In addition many use of force rules prevent one from using a nightstick or pr24 or asp under many circumstances where some kind of force is needed.

My experiences come from prison. We use pr24s and mace. MAce is alwaysrthe first option we use and it works great.

So far I have seen only one inmates out of thousands immune to pepper spray although a few take a little linger to succumb to the effects than most. It is also a great intimidator they fear pepper spray more than the pr ce they have got a dose of it. It's also the easiest method of force to use since it causes no injury we can use it at the drop of a hat with no repercussions.

[soupnazi630]

On another note ... why does it seem like all these "peaceful protests" devolve into protesters getting up in the face of the cops ... are they there to protest the cops or the banks? If they want to protest the banks then stand in front of the banks, on the sidewalk and walk up and down the sidewalk with signs. Running down the middle of the street and getting in the face of the cops deliberating trying to provoke them will get a negative result.

I watched more of the videos of this protest and can tell you that there were protesters deliberating trying to provoke a negative outcome.

Yes it is clear the protestors were asking for trouble and the police reacted appropriately.

Pepper spray is harmless which is why it is often the first tool used. One need not be posing a threat for an officer to legally use pepper spray one need only be ignoring lawful orders from a police officer such as going dead weight when ordered to move.

This may be a little off topic but I am curious why they were protesting on wall street if their protest was aimed at the bank bailouts.

It is the government which bailed out the banks would it not be more logical to protest at a government site?

[revelarts]

Yes it is clear the protestors were asking for trouble and the police reacted appropriately.

Pepper spray is harmless which is why it is often the first tool used. One need not be posing a threat for an officer to legally use pepper spray one need only be ignoring lawful orders from a police officer such as going dead weight when ordered to move.

This may be a little off topic but I am curious why they were protesting on wall street if their protest was aimed at the bank bailouts.

It is the government which bailed out the banks would it not be more logical to protest at a government site?

I think I Understand where your coming from Soup But I don't think the public streets should be policed like a prison.
We're suppose to be a free country freedom of speech assembly, redress of greive etc..
And that "lawful order" stuff is a blank check used by cops in All situations now a days. Basically Creating law as they go along. Making a defacto police state where cops gives "lawful orders" that legally can't be questioned unless you sue after the fact. But they don't have answer ANY questions on the street from the people they are suppose to be "protecting and serving".

[soupnazi630]

I think I Understand where your coming from Soup But I don't think the public streets should be policed like a prison.
We're suppose to be a free country freedom of speech assembly, redress of greive etc..
And that "lawful order" stuff is a blank check used by cops in All situations now a days. Basically Creating law as they go along. Making a defacto police state where cops gives "lawful orders" that legally can't be questioned unless you sue after the fact. But they don't have answer ANY questions on the street from the people they are suppose to be "protecting and serving".

They were not being policed like a prison and far from it.

Protests happen everyday mostof them quite peaceful and well organized with little or no violence and as a result no police action. Once in a while they get out of hand however and oten those are the types of orotests we see here such as the protests several years ago against global trade etc.

The police have to act to control such outbreaks. This whole thing was light years away from Kent State which was an isolated incident and which did not compriomise our overall freedoms.

Freedom of assembly is probably the most regulated of all the first amendment freedoms and for good reason. The srupreme court long ago ruled that communities can regulate public assembly and if a crowd is not complying they are breaking the law

[logroller]

Don't break the law, Ok . Jim, If your wife is pregnant you will break the speed limit to get to the hospital and be pissed if a cop takes time to write you a ticket while she's in labor in the back seat.

Oh come on rev-- have you actually heard a first-hand account of an officer ticketing somebody would was transporting someone with medical emergency? To answer question, the officer has the duty of stopping speeders, as does an officer have the discretion to not ticket for a myriad of reasons; ticketing an woman in labor would be subordinate to the safety of mother and child. If anything, stopping them could serve to better protect them, as I've heard of 2 first-hand stories of an the officer stopping someone in labor; one was given a code-3 escort and the other one where the baby was delivered at the location by emergency personnel. A guy I knew in high school was stopped on his way to see his ailing G-pa, told the officer why he was speeding, and the officer escorted him to the hospital to verify the story; even attended the funeral to express his condolences.

Authority is a granted to the officer to influence the peace, if you challenge that authority, the individual power vested in the officer comes to light-- but not before his authority is challenged.
Most cops are diligent in their application of law, some may not be-- but a far more prevalent problem is how many people don't abide by the law or respect the granted authority. When given an order by an officer, he is expressing his authority, its best to comply (certainly if you've been detained or arrested); refusal is a challenge to their authority, they then flex their power. I'll bet the majority of the protesters simply moved on when the protest became a public nuisance, free to do the same the next day--persistence, not defiance, pays off in the long-run.

And It's not like they used tear gas, they used pepper spray; if you're walking away from the officer, you wouldn't get hit in the face and it wouldn't effect you.


If the GOAL is a Clear road then Push the protesters off the road. what's the point of the pepper spray and arrest?

The point is people refused to move along, kicking down barriers and such; thereby interfering with the officers' duty to establish peace. Did you notice how many people had their phones out recording the incident? They wanted to see people getting arrested and I'd bet many of those arrested, playing to the cameras, incited the officers' response.



i can agree with that.
That comparison that Train made of the the cops to wild bears didn't seem to be to flattering to the cops to me. Not sure why that was suppose to be compared to going to a protest in the US. Why Should we think we're looking at a pack of Wild Bears when we look at a group of cops? is that a problem for anyone else?

the bear reference I made was referring to the "bear vs bull" market characterization, not that of peace officers.

[Gaffer]

Your knowlegde of Mace is based on limited exprience and Im not disputing your choices to avoid using it. However it is good for much more than dispersing crowds. It is a very very effective means of controlling combative individuals as well. Yes the possibility always exists of taking out the wrong people but it also takes down the bad guy. Nightsticks can be taken away and used against you where as a small can is harder to get out of your hand. In addition many use of force rules prevent one from using a nightstick or pr24 or asp under many circumstances where some kind of force is needed. My experiences come from prison. We use pr24s and mace. MAce is alwaysrthe first option we use and it works great. So far I have seen only one inmates out of thousands immune to pepper spray although a few take a little linger to succumb to the effects than most. It is also a great intimidator they fear pepper spray more than the pr ce they have got a dose of it. It's also the easiest method of force to use since it causes no injury we can use it at the drop of a hat with no repercussions. I worked at a prison for two and a half years and as a deputy sheriff for over 8 years. My mace experience is not limited. It's good when you're out numbered and can keep most people at bay. But if you have the one that is immune to it's effects it gives him and advantage over you unless you are immune to the effects. And mace remains active long after the events are over with affecting anyone that comes in contact with the prisoner. I never had my pr-24 taken from me. If that had happened then Smith and Wesson would have joined me to subdue the person. Comparing a prison situation to the street is apples and oranges.

[DragonStryk72]

Traffic backed up in NYC, thats a crisis? All right: Your wife dies in a traffic blockage in an ambulance trapped by these chucklenuts who, again, had perfectly good sidewalks for use one all sides of the intersection, and purposely chose to block traffic. Is that their right? To cut off every other person's freedom to move about freely in compliance with the law because they do not want to assemble peacefully? I see people in cars where I live who don't get out of the way of emergency vehicles cops aren't pepper spraying those drivers. Um, wrong video, first off, since the ones maced were being meshed off by the cops when something happened further down the line, and lose complete site of the scene for almost 10 seconds. Second, those drivers can lose their license for that crap, and I have seen it happen.

On some of the other videos the protesters where walking FASTER than the traffic. If they are hindering emergency vehicles they where being jerks, the solution is to move them off of the street not pepper spray them in the face so they CAN"T SEE TO GET OFF THE ROAD or not slamm them to the ground in the middle of ROAD take you time cuffing and mill around in the center of the road with a gang of your cop buddies. If the GOAL is a Clear road then Push the protesters off the road. what's the point of the pepper spray and arrest? Again, the protestors in the street were not sprayed. Their ringleader, who was openly taunting the cops got taken bodily to the ground and restrained without the use of weapons of any kind. Had he not continued to resist the cops when they tried to escort him away quietly and without attempting to arrest him, he would not have been put to the ground, but again, no, he chose to keep going at it, and purposely taunted the cops. At a certain point, you are in fact asking for it.




;

[soupnazi630]

I worked at a prison for two and a half years and as a deputy sheriff for over 8 years. My mace experience is not limited. It's good when you're out numbered and can keep most people at bay. But if you have the one that is immune to it's effects it gives him and advantage over you unless you are immune to the effects. And mace remains active long after the events are over with affecting anyone that comes in contact with the prisoner. I never had my pr-24 taken from me. If that had happened then Smith and Wesson would have joined me to subdue the person. Comparing a prison situation to the street is apples and oranges.

I have never had my PR taken away either ... yet.

I do know one CO at my prison who had it taken away and he took months to recover. Granted we hurt the inmate even worse but that did not really help the officer.

The people immune to it are one out of thousands so it makes sense to take that chance and use it against one person. The after effects which linger for days are well known to me I've been hit with it many times at work and yes it can last for days and is not pleasant. However it's even worse for the other guy and the after effects are a fringe benefit. We cannot carry firearms inside a prison there is no prison that allows that except perhaps in an emergency such as a riot.

I realize that prison is not the real world and is not a good comparison but people are people inside and out and pepper spray has man terrific advantages regardless of wh it is used on except for those few rare people immune to it , one can spend an entire career without ever meeting such a person.

I don't question your professionalism or abilities but it never hurts to have a wide range of tactics and options available and to make use of them. I see street officers on COPS use the stuff all the time and they are generally very smart about it. Such as spraying the person in the drivers seat of a car. This works great beause the driver gets the full force and no one else does while it also shuts down his eyes which prevents him from driving off.

[revelarts]

Oh come on rev-- have you actually heard a first-hand account of an officer ticketing somebody would was transporting someone with medical emergency? To answer question, the officer has the duty of stopping speeders, as does an officer have the discretion to not ticket for a myriad of reasons; ticketing an woman in labor would be subordinate to the safety of mother and child. If anything, stopping them could serve to better protect them, as I've heard of 2 first-hand stories of an the officer stopping someone in labor; one was given a code-3 escort and the other one where the baby was delivered at the location by emergency personnel. A guy I knew in high school was stopped on his way to see his ailing G-pa, told the officer why he was speeding, and the officer escorted him to the hospital to verify the story; even attended the funeral to express his condolences. no i've never seen it-, I was using the idea of to show that Street laws are flexible. To me a public protest is one of the areas where the street laws are flexible. As you go on to point out the police have discretion if they choose to allow for a bit of harmless foolishness from protesters instead of thinking of protesters as the enemy but as fellow citizens. The protesters would get more out if it to if they treated cops as people just trying to do a job.
Authority is a granted to the officer to influence the peace, if you challenge that authority, the individual power vested in the officer comes to light-- but not before his authority is challenged. Asking a policeman a question is NOT a challenge to his authority. Why should he refused to answer? And the Authority granted COMES FORM THE PEOPLE. And the people ON SITE may want some clarification on what the Heck going on that's upsetting the "peace" that no one else seems aware of. What laws have been broken, WHATS THE HARM, officer am i free to go?
Most cops are diligent in their application of law, some may not be-- but a far more prevalent problem is how many people don't abide by the law or respect the granted authority. When given an order by an officer, he is expressing his authority, its best to comply (certainly if you've been detained or arrested); refusal is a challenge to their authority, they then flex their power. I'll bet the majority of the protesters simply moved on when the protest became a public nuisance, free to do the same the next day--persistence, not defiance, pays off in the long-run. And It's not like they used tear gas, they used pepper spray; if you're walking away from the officer, you wouldn't get hit in the face and it wouldn't effect you. you know, I agree log. But it's also my position that the police have little reason to flex at a protest where a few people are yell or jay walking. what's the point? All the dramatic emergency vehicle talk people keep bringing up, seem a bit hollow, "it's vital IF, MAYBE, ONE DAY an ambulance get through people might DIE!" but those weak protesters "who happens to get concussion on the street from a stray cop just got what's coming to um Har HAR she's not dead or anything" .
The point is people refused to move along, kicking down barriers and such; thereby interfering with the officers' duty to establish peace. there where various scenarios with some protesters out of hand and some cops as you mentione most protesters kept moving as noir mention the women just wanted to leave and was sprayed. for some reason most here refuse to believe the cop was wrong. I say he was. other videos cops act outstandingly. overall this was pretty mild police offenses but the goal should be ZERO. cops have all the cards and the training to GOOD BEHAVIOR. seems it's up to the cops to be the better men they like us to believe they are.
Did you notice how many people had their phones out recording the incident? They wanted to see people getting arrested and I'd bet many of those arrested, playing to the cameras, incited the officers' response. That's a negative assumption. But if you spend 30 minutes on youtube and type in cops & protest then see if you wouldn't bring a camera if your going to a protest or a march.
the bear reference I made was referring to the "bear vs bull" market characterization, not that of peace officers. I think NightTrain made the wild killer bear in the woods = police at a protest march comment. but yes, I thought your Bear and Bull was comment great. made me wonder, If the cops knew that the wall st crowd was blowing their pensions and 401-k's and 456 program funds how they would treat them. Or if they thought they might not get paid and lose their jobs because wall st. has killed the economy? I wonder how important jaywalking laws would be then?

[logroller]

no i've never seen it-, I was using the idea of to show that Street laws are flexible. To me a public protest is one of the areas where the street laws are flexible. As you go on to point out the police have discretion if they choose to allow for a bit of harmless foolishness from protesters instead of thinking of protesters as the enemy but as fellow citizens. The protesters would get more out if it to if they treated cops as people just trying to do a job.

The laws aren't flexible, the street cop has discretion; subtle nuance, I know, but they are different. The reason protests are allowed is because its the law too. There's a time and place to challenge the authority of government-- protests aren't one of those places-- but you must walk a fine line between peaceful protest and mayhem/riot.


Asking a policeman a question is NOT a challenge to his authority. Why should he refused to answer?

As far as the question not being a challenge to authority-- that would depend on the question and the context/ situation. A street cop is a specialized agent of the law-- whose duty is to keep the peace. Asking him about the illegitimacy of bank bailout aren't within his job description.


And the Authority granted COMES FORM THE PEOPLE. And the people ON SITE may want some clarification on what the Heck going on that's upsetting the "peace" that no one else seems aware of. What laws have been broken, WHATS THE HARM, officer am i free to go?

In the video I saw of a man getting detained/arrested, it didn't appear he was asking for directions. He was pushed away, then turned to confront the officer-- that's a challenge.

you know, I agree log. But it's also my position that the police have little reason to flex at a protest where a few people are yell or jay walking. what's the point?
Again, discretion. Yelling and jaywalking are ticket-able offenses. One person doing this would probably be overlooked-- an entire crowd on the other hand...


All the dramatic emergency vehicle talk people keep bringing up, seem a bit hollow, ... I didn't find that very compelling either.


there where various scenarios with some protesters out of hand and some cops as you mentione most protesters kept moving as noir mention the women just wanted to leave and was sprayed. for some reason most here refuse to believe the cop was wrong. I say he was. other videos cops act outstandingly. overall this was pretty mild police offenses but the goal should be ZERO.

Honestly I couldn't really tell what was going on--shaking around as much as it did-- reminded me of the blair witch project.


... Bear and Bull .... made me wonder, If the cops knew that the wall st crowd was blowing their pensions and 401-k's and 456 program funds how they would treat them. Or if they thought they might not get paid and lose their jobs because wall st. has killed the economy? I wonder how important jaywalking laws would be then?

No offense intended, I'm sure there are some smart cops who are well aware of the market and pension activities-- but the vast majority shut their hearts and minds off and go into duty mode.

2489

[LuvRPgrl]

Not sure what to make of this mess.

Drinking tonight, Rev?




Dude, you have hundreds of hippies yelling and chanting and he's supposed to hear one woman that suddenly realizes she's in a bad situation and has had a change of heart?

I think she needs to own up to the fact that she made a bad judgement call and put herself deliberately into a dangerous situation and paid the price.

Anyone saying differently needs my size 13 boot up their ass.

NT, I thought you were better than that. I dunno, maybe Im wrong.


Let me tell you a true story of Timothy Treadwell.


Your friend, Noir, is completely responsible for the stupid situation she placed herself in, and deserved what she got. Just like Timmy Treadwell did.

Dangerous situation, multiple warnings, ignoring basic instincts to get away..... she deserved it just like Timmy Boy did.

Kinda llike the scorpion and the frog. So, its in the nature of scorpions to sting and kill, bears to hunt and kill and eat, AND COPS TO PEPPER SPRAY UNARMED WOMEN??

Bear with me, pun intended, Im trying this multi quote thing, not sure if I got it righty yet.

[darin]

Where is the outrage! ON FILM - PROOF US Gov't Gasses citizens en mass.

Speaking from personal experience, I've BEEN there, gassed like this. Where's my 'justice'?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBZgPNK4-8s

[revelarts]

[QUOTE=dmp;496316]Where is the outrage! ON FILM - PROOF US Gov't Gasses citizens en mass.

Speaking from personal experience, I've BEEN there, gassed like this. Where's my 'justice'?

QUOTE]:cool:
well you signed up for it. "If you go in the woods...."

but That'd a great recruiting commercial.
"Who leads the Way? RuDelta!TkacoughcuoughSputterWhaka"

[LuvRPgrl]

On another note ... why does it seem like all these "peaceful protests" devolve into protesters getting up in the face of the cops ... are they there to protest the cops or the banks? If they want to protest the banks then stand in front of the banks, on the sidewalk and walk up and down the sidewalk with signs. Running down the middle of the street and getting in the face of the cops deliberating trying to provoke them will get a negative result.

I watched more of the videos of this protest and can tell you that there were protesters deliberating trying to provoke a negative outcome.

Very true.

Before I start. a disclaimer. The terms mace(d) & pepper spray are interchangable, if I use one in place of the other, please dont waste our time calling me on it, since it doesnt make one iota of difference for our purposes here. Other terms may apply also.
End of disclaimer.
.
What we have here, is a failurrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr to communicaaaaaaaaaaaaate......
..
LAW & ORDER vs. ANARCHISM...

Facts are, ANARCHISTS DO NOT EXIST. Law and order is anything but that.

Lets get real.
Not all cops are bad, not all protesters are violent.....
Cops are like every other group, some good, some bad, most in the middle.
Problem with cops though, is that they hold other peoples lives and futures in their hands. They carry lethal weapons, and we depend on their integrity. It makes me sick to my stomach when I see a vid of a cop being overpowered by a civie, its scary, if our top line of defense cant stop this guy, how are we gonna do it?
......Then again,,
If cops lie and abuse their power, who do we have to turn to, to stop it? Fact is, because cops wield so much power over us, they also need to be held to a higher standard. If you cant hack that, then dont become a cop. The PEOPLE give them the authority, WE can also demand a higher level of integrity.
.
.
Fact is, EVERYONE has a right to be at a protest.
NOBODY deserves or should get sprayed if they are not actively engaged are immentantly threating physical violence.

Just because she is there, is no reason for her to get maced. NONE.
.....There are lots of protestors, some good, some bad, most in the middle. Alot of protestors use the event as an opportunity to vent violence.
....Others are there for purely idealistic reasons and in no way plan or present a threat of violence on anyone or anything.
....If and when a yahoo starts being violent at a protest, IN NO WAY DOES THAT JUSTIFY A COP MACING AN UNARMED, NON THREATENING WOMAN.

LOTS OF PROTESTERS ARE ASSHOLES, and are looking for any excuse, they should be focused on by the cops. But when the cops attack an INNOCENT person, (what exactly is her crime HOGman and NT?, Just "being there" does not qualify), so when the cops do that, they are simply adding fuel to the fire and giving the real assholes an excuse to become violent. I know if I was there, I would no longer be standing by peacefully, and if that cop had sprayed me, I would, guaranteed, be paying him a visit at a later date with a more level playing field.

In this particular video, it appears the cops were out of control. It doesnt mean all cops are like that, nor have I heard anyone make that claim in this thread. If someone is defensive about it, then they need to look at themselves for the real problem.
.....Bottom line on making a judgement based on the vid is, you have to consider that the cops were guilty. If one wants to say we need more vid to see the before and after, go get some. W/O any more vid, if YOU HAVE to make a judgement, the only thing you can conclude is the cops were out of control. If you want to argue "maybe's", could haves, context, or anything like that, then you are merely admitting the vid looks very bad for the cops.
....Bottom line is that vid, if studied well, gives the appearance that a cop has sprayed a completely non threatening woman with pepper spray. GUILTY.

[ConHog]

Very true.

Before I start. a disclaimer. The terms mace(d) & pepper spray are interchangable, if I use one in place of the other, please dont waste our time calling me on it, since it doesnt make one iota of difference for our purposes here. Other terms may apply also.
End of disclaimer.
.
What we have here, is a failurrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr to communicaaaaaaaaaaaaate......
..
LAW & ORDER vs. ANARCHISM...

Facts are, ANARCHISTS DO NOT EXIST. Law and order is anything but that.

Lets get real.
Not all cops are bad, not all protesters are violent.....
Cops are like every other group, some good, some bad, most in the middle.
Problem with cops though, is that they hold other peoples lives and futures in their hands. They carry lethal weapons, and we depend on their integrity. It makes me sick to my stomach when I see a vid of a cop being overpowered by a civie, its scary, if our top line of defense cant stop this guy, how are we gonna do it?
......Then again,,
If cops lie and abuse their power, who do we have to turn to, to stop it? Fact is, because cops wield so much power over us, they also need to be held to a higher standard. If you cant hack that, then dont become a cop. The PEOPLE give them the authority, WE can also demand a higher level of integrity.
.
.
Fact is, EVERYONE has a right to be at a protest.
NOBODY deserves or should get sprayed if they are not actively engaged are immentantly threating physical violence.

Just because she is there, is no reason for her to get maced. NONE.
.....There are lots of protestors, some good, some bad, most in the middle. Alot of protestors use the event as an opportunity to vent violence.
....Others are there for purely idealistic reasons and in no way plan or present a threat of violence on anyone or anything.
....If and when a yahoo starts being violent at a protest, IN NO WAY DOES THAT JUSTIFY A COP MACING AN UNARMED, NON THREATENING WOMAN.

LOTS OF PROTESTERS ARE ASSHOLES, and are looking for any excuse, they should be focused on by the cops. But when the cops attack an INNOCENT person, (what exactly is her crime HOGman and NT?, Just "being there" does not qualify), so when the cops do that, they are simply adding fuel to the fire and giving the real assholes an excuse to become violent. I know if I was there, I would no longer be standing by peacefully, and if that cop had sprayed me, I would, guaranteed, be paying him a visit at a later date with a more level playing field.

In this particular video, it appears the cops were out of control. It doesnt mean all cops are like that, nor have I heard anyone make that claim in this thread. If someone is defensive about it, then they need to look at themselves for the real problem.
.....Bottom line on making a judgement based on the vid is, you have to consider that the cops were guilty. If one wants to say we need more vid to see the before and after, go get some. W/O any more vid, if YOU HAVE to make a judgement, the only thing you can conclude is the cops were out of control. If you want to argue "maybe's", could haves, context, or anything like that, then you are merely admitting the vid looks very bad for the cops.
....Bottom line is that vid, if studied well, gives the appearance that a cop has sprayed a completely non threatening woman with pepper spray. GUILTY.



Oh, so the cops are guilty unless and until more evidence is produced to prove they are innocent? LOL

The truth is EVERYONE was out of control in that video. It was total mayhem. Anyone who claims that they could tell from that video what was going on simply has an agenda.


For sure everyone has a right to attend a protest, and for sure simply attending a protest shouldn't get anyone sprayed ; but very rarely does an incident go from peaceful to "pepper spray that bitch" without some warning that things are going awry. The police have any choice, they aren't leaving if things start getting out of hand, instead they are going to be preemptive in order to try to keep things from getting worse. Pepper spray hurts like a bitch, but except in rare cases it does no permanent damage. That's the idea of it, end things before they get violent.

On the other had, a normal citizen who had NO interest in being involved with a protest if it started getting out of hand no doubt had plenty of time to make the decision to leave or stay before things escalated to pepper spray. No one was protesting against their will that I know of. I know we heard anecdotal evidence that the woman asked if she could leave right before the pepper spray came out but I'm not convinced it happened that way. I'm quite sure that the woman was free to leave at any time prior to the pepper spray.

You know it used to be that protesters took a certain amount of pride in being sprayed with a fire hose or pepper sprayed or even arrested if they truly felt that strongly about whatever they were protesting; but nowadays most of those assholes are just protesting to be causing problems. It's like the assholes who run out and tear up their town after their team wins whatever championship. Those people didn't give a shit about the championship. Just an excuse for them to cause problems.

I have no sympathy for these idiots. Now that's not to say that I condone police brutality because I do not. I just don't even see this rising to that level.

[Gunny]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=moD2JnGTToA



And the land of the free...

Typical of you. You don't have the right to protest (peacefully or otherwise) when and where you please. Never did, and that isn't what the Constitution says.

[NightTrain]

The jack boots broke the law, jimbo. Where is the justice? I've watched the video time and again and it is clear that the protesters posed no threat whatsoever to the jerks that involved all the damned violence. I'm used to it, however. I've been a peaceful protester for years and assholes with billy clubs, guns, mace and pepper spray always use their advantages to stifle the American process and guarantees. Pitiful.

Psychoblues



Please tell me that you have been maced, billy clubbed and tazed. That confession would make the world a better place for me.

And I would pay top dollar for that video.

Honest Injun.

[LuvRPgrl]

Oh, so the cops are guilty unless and until more evidence is produced to prove they are innocent? LOL. YEP
What is funny is that there is NOTHING on that tape showing a reason the cops had to spray her. NOTHING, that SHE was doing. You cant spray people just because they are there, legitimately. You might be able to arrest them, but they had her completely under control. There were a number of cops around her who obviously didnt think or feel she was a threat at all.


The truth is EVERYONE was out of control in that video. It was total mayhem. Anyone who claims that they could tell from that video what was going on simply has an agenda..
If one views the video a number of times, what is going on becomes much clearer. You cant tell everything that is going on, but some questions do get answered. I dont see any mayhem, violence or anyone "out of control" Yea, there are alot of people, and many are moving about, there are lots of cops, but none of them seem to be engaging the protestors, there is no violence displayed in that video. Anyone who says differently clearly has an agenda. If it is there, ,please point out specifically who/where it is happening.



For sure everyone has a right to attend a protest, and for sure simply attending a protest shouldn't get anyone sprayed ; but very rarely does an incident go from peaceful to "pepper spray that bitch" without some warning that things are going awry..
You are assumning the cops arent guilty because they usually arent. Your many assumptions, every time, favor the cops and go against the girl. They are assumptions and assumptions only and have no place is discussing what we do know,that is, what we see WHAT IS HAPPENING IN THE TAPE.


The police have any choice, they aren't leaving if things start getting out of hand, instead they are going to be preemptive in order to try to keep things from getting worse. Pepper spray hurts like a bitch, but except in rare cases it does no permanent damage. That's the idea of it, end things before they get violent..
There is nothing on that vid indicating the girl is even a threat to become violent.

On the other had, a normal citizen who had NO interest in being involved with a protest if it started getting out of hand no doubt had plenty of time to make the decision to leave or stay before things escalated to pepper spray..[/QUOTE] So what.


No one was protesting against their will that I know of. I know we heard anecdotal evidence that the woman asked if she could leave.
It is unconfirmed statement of facts, not anecdotal, big difference.

right before the pepper spray came out but I'm not convinced it happened that way. I'm quite sure that the woman was free to leave at any time prior to the pepper spray..[/QUOTE] More assumptions, pro cop con girl.
By making assumptions to give the cops a free pass on this,in fact it proves that there is nothing concrete from the video that you have, otherwise you wouldnt be using assumptions to back up your view.



I have no sympathy for these idiots. Now that's not to say that I condone police brutality because I do not..
YES you do.

I just don't even see this rising to that level. Of course you dont, you probably never will. Please show me a tape that shows a cop going too far.. I know you have viewed alot of tapes, so I would think you would have at least one.

[Psychoblues]

The officer in question, now identified, faces serious abuse of authority charges. I hope they hang his ass out to dry. He had no reason to do what he did. He nor any of his subordinates were ever threatened in any way. Peaceful disagreement and protest is as American as apple pie. Who amongst us would stifle that right? Reichwingers? I thought so.

Psychoblues


Please tell me that you have been maced, billy clubbed and tazed. That confession would make the world a better place for me.

And I would pay top dollar for that video.

Honest Injun.

You are indeed a sick one, nt. Perhaps you would better like the authoritarian governments of our adversaries? No? Use your head for something other than a shoulder ornament.

Psychoblues

[ConHog]

You are indeed a sick one, nt. Perhaps you would better like the authoritarian governments of our adversaries? No? Use your head for something other than a shoulder ornament.

Psychoblues

Guss I'm sick to. I've been "gassed" and tazed and I can tell you that NOTHING is funnier than watching it happen to another person. When you get your training taze I guarantee all your buddies laugh at you when it happens, and then you laugh at them when they get theirs. Same with the gas chamber, the guys razz you when you're about to go in, and then make fun of you when you come out, and you do likewise.

It's FUNNY.

Now that's not the same thing as saying it's funny if someone gets sprayed or tazed by the police , even if they deserve it; because that's an entirely different situation. And not a laughing matter.

So yes, I would love to witness you being tazed. I would laugh. I would laugh watching anyone being tazed. Except for in the situations I listed above.

[LuvRPgrl]

The officer in question, now identified, faces serious abuse of authority charges. I hope they hang his ass out to dry. He had no reason to do what he did. He nor any of his subordinates were ever threatened in any way. Peaceful disagreement and protest is as American as apple pie. Who amongst us would stifle that right? Reichwingers? I thought so.

Psychoblues



You are indeed a sick one, nt. Perhaps you would better like the authoritarian governments of our adversaries? No? Use your head for something other than a shoulder ornament.

Psychoblues

After viewing the tape a whole bunch of times in a row, it starts to become clearer.
The two guys in the white shirts seem to be just roving. The guy who maced comes from the background towards the girl behind the partition. He is pointing his finger at her as he is approaching her, either he, or his buddy sprayed the mace, or both.
.....The cops holding the banner got sprayed also, and looked very pissed off.
Then the two in white go off into the crowd and disappear.