Fully Automatic Weapons

[J.T]

Okay, a bit of reality. I can use a rubber band and achieve a rate of fire with a semi-automatic comparable to a fully automatic. This includes pistols, though I wouldn't recommend it. Add a front pistol grip and a slide stock (if using an AR-15, for instance) and I can achieve comparable accuracy, as well. Even if criminals don't buy full automatics on the black market (such as those coming from Afghanistan by means of Mexico), they could easily use this method to achieve the desired rate of fire. Now, given this, and the fact that the information of widely available and the technique is widely known, what do we actually achieve by banning fully automatics other than giving a false sense of safety [false because someone bump firing is, if anything, more dangerous to bystanders] and accomplishment the anti-gun crowd and anyone naive enough to listen to them?

[ConHog]

Okay, a bit of reality. I can use a rubber band and achieve a rate of fire with a semi-automatic comparable to a fully automatic. This includes pistols, though I wouldn't recommend it. Add a front pistol grip and a slide stock (if using an AR-15, for instance) and I can achieve comparable accuracy, as well. Even if criminals don't buy full automatics on the black market (such as those coming from Afghanistan by means of Mexico), they could easily use this method to achieve the desired rate of fire. Now, given this, and the fact that the information of widely available and the technique is widely known, what do we actually achieve by banning fully automatics other than giving a false sense of safety [false because someone bump firing is, if anything, more dangerous to bystanders] and accomplishment the anti-gun crowd and anyone naive enough to listen to them?

Bullshit, you could not modify ANY weapon to equal this


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXkebEARwHE


and for the record, I in noway think a private citizen should be able to own a Minigun.

[DragonStryk72]

Bullshit, you could not modify ANY weapon to equal this


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXkebEARwHE


and for the record, I in noway think a private citizen should be able to own a Minigun.

Wait, hold on, what criminals are using miniguns?!

[J.T]

Who's talking about a vulcan gun? Stop 'arguing' like KRB.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1WhhKH3QVU


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztsprD9LI3c


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MydCuTfgt0k


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G27gjMyY-rk


All of those weapons are semi-automatic. What, exactly, has been achieved by the current regulation against fully automatic versions of those same firearms? If a criminal wants the increased fire rate, it's easily achieved. Why not let law-abiding citizens who already have the right to buy a weapon simply buy the fully automatic version of one of these weapons without need for special licensing, permits, or fees (taxes)? What's achieved by this regulation?

[darin]

Okay, a bit of reality. I can use a rubber band and achieve a rate of fire with a semi-automatic comparable to a fully automatic. This includes pistols, though I wouldn't recommend it. Add a front pistol grip and a slide stock (if using an AR-15, for instance) and I can achieve comparable accuracy, as well. Even if criminals don't buy full automatics on the black market (such as those coming from Afghanistan by means of Mexico), they could easily use this method to achieve the desired rate of fire. Now, given this, and the fact that the information of widely available and the technique is widely known, what do we actually achieve by banning fully automatics other than giving a false sense of safety [false because someone bump firing is, if anything, more dangerous to bystanders] and accomplishment the anti-gun crowd and anyone naive enough to listen to them?

No you can't. In fact, what we gain by banning fully-automatic weapons is: Fewer incidence of 'spray and pray'. At least with semi-auto, folks have a reasonable chance of hitting their target. Unless one is trained to use a specific full-auto, and honestly, few criminals outside terror organizations will take the time to learn things like "use 6-8 round bursts for group-targets."

While it's true the 'ban' only provides false sense a security - MOST security measures do that; they give somebody (likely a bureaucrat) a CYA 'out' when something bad happens.

[fj1200]

and for the record, I in noway think a private citizen should be able to own a Minigun.

So there's a limit?

[CSM]

So there's a limit?

Yep; the limit is tactical nuclear handgrenades. Nobody should own those.

[fj1200]

Yep; the limit is tactical nuclear handgrenades. Nobody should own those.

:eek: Crap, I hope that they have a tactical-nuclear-hand-grenade buyback program/amnesty.

[J.T]

No you can't.

So bump firing doesn't exist? How do you explain the examples of it in the OP?

[logroller]

Yep; the limit is tactical nuclear handgrenades. Nobody should own those.


:eek: Crap, I hope that they have a tactical-nuclear-hand-grenade buyback program/amnesty.

But what if I use them strategically? OK then?

[J.T]

ATF and its predecessor agency, the Internal Revenue Service (IRS), have historically held that the original, crank-operated Gatling Gun, and replicas thereof, are not automatic firearms or machineguns as defined.
http://www.atf.gov/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-2004-5.html

Q: Can I legally own a Gatling gun?


A: We aren't lawyers, so we can't advise you on legal issues. We can say that BATF has stated that a gun built to our design is considered a "Title I firearm" which doesn't require a license or registration to build or own. Click here (http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/user/wbardwel/public/nfalist/atf_letter14.txt) to read a BATF letter explaining their position. If you have any further questions in this area, we suggest you contact your local authorities.
http://www.gatlingguns.net/faq.htm




By 1893, the M1893 Gatling was adapted to take the new .30 Army smokeless cartridge. The new M1893 guns featured six barrels, and were capable of a maximum (initial) rate of fire of some 800-900 rounds per minute
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gatling_gun



So... I can have a crank operated weapon that fires 900rpm. I can have a semi-auto that fires just as fast as a full auto if I want it to just by pulling it forward into my hand. Why not just let people buy a full-auto? I mean, it's not like banning them achieves anything other than putting another tax into effect anyway, even without considering criminals who acquire full-autos despite the law. other than being another source of tax revenue, what's the point?

[logroller]

So... I can have a crank operated weapon that fires 900rpm. I can have a semi-auto that fires just as fast as a full auto if I want it to just by pulling it forward into my hand. Why not just let people buy a full-auto? I mean, it's not like banning them achieves anything other than putting another tax into effect anyway, even without considering criminals who acquire full-autos despite the law. other than being another source of tax revenue, what's the point?





If you had a machine gun, I'd want a machine gun; then Gabby would need a machine gun. There'd be anarchy.:laugh:

[J.T]

If you had a machine gun, I'd want a machine gun; then Gabby would need a machine gun. There'd be anarchy.:laugh:

Really? Methinks we'd have a booming firearms industry and a much more polite society. Besides, I'd give a week before Gabby managed to accidentally kill herself with a gun, leaving you and me to ignore eachother ;).

[logroller]

Really? Methinks we'd have a booming firearms industry and a much more polite society. Besides, I'd give a week before Gabby managed to accidentally kill herself with a gun, leaving you and me to ignore eachother ;).

We already do have a booming arms industry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arms_industry), but we can do better. :salute:I like to think of it as job stimulus. Politicians and their politicking, they prefer a foreign enemy on which to unleash the productive juggernaut of war, but hell they've already taken it domestic-- Why should Homeland security have all the fun?

[darin]

So bump firing doesn't exist? How do you explain the examples of it in the OP?

You can't do what you claimed. that's my point. Has nothing to do with bump-firing. You can't return a sustainable, usable (id est - accurate) rate of fire by your rubber bands or other gimmicks.

[logroller]

Those videos just make me want an AR15-- if it weren't for the weather, I'd be outta CA so quick.

Oh yea Sidenote--I think the exemption for the gatling gun linked by JT may be due to the fact it fires a rimfire cartridge.

[CSM]

But what if I use them strategically? OK then?

If you use them strategically, they become strategic nuclear handgrenades. That's a whole different animal. Kinda like putting a bayonet lug on a rifle makes it an assault weapon, even if it only fires one round per hour.

[J.T]

You can't do what you claimed. that's my point. Has nothing to do with bump-firing. You can't return a sustainable, usable (id est - accurate) rate of fire by your rubber bands or other gimmicks.

So how do you explain this?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1WhhKH3QVU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMoIocLvPSA


Also, you do know that one generally fires bursts from a automatic rifle, right? Going full-blast just eats up precious ammo in most situations.



Oh yea Sidenote--I think the exemption for the gatling gun linked by JT may be due to the fact it fires a rimfire cartridge.

It has to do with the fact that turning the crank is considered repeated applications of the trigger mechanism, so that the gatling gun is not considered an automatic weapon so long as the crank is hand-operated. See the link earlier in the thread

[darin]

So how do you explain this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1WhhKH3QVU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMoIocLvPSA



Also, you do know that one generally fires bursts from a automatic rifle, right? Going full-blast just eats up precious ammo in most situations.


I don't explain those things. I see what you saw. I'm saying that's not accurate firing. How we define accurate and sustainable probably differs. I'm VERY familiar with automatic weapons, friend. :)

M60? Check. M249? Check. Mk19? Check. M2? Check.

[logroller]

I don't explain those things. I see what you saw. I'm saying that's not accurate firing. How we define accurate and sustainable probably differs. I'm VERY familiar with automatic weapons, friend. :)

M60? Check. M249? Check. Mk19? Check. M2? Check.

envious? check

[darin]

envious? check

www.goarmy.com (http://www.goarmy.com) ? :D

Forgot one... M242? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M242_Bushmaster) Check.

Oh...and since I'm on a roll...not Full-Auto...But...fire-and-forget:

FIM-92A


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atO6L985JeI

[Little-Acorn]

If you had a machine gun, I'd want a machine gun; then Gabby would need a machine gun. There'd be anarchy.:laugh:

Dogs and cats living together, mass hysteria!

(aka four more years of the Obama administration!)

Of course bump-firing is possible, with a rubber band or other cute devices. Accuracy is quetionable, and reliability is nonexistent, but it can be done, and has been demonstrated numerous time, including in court. It's easier with some guns than with others.

If you do it, BTW, you are violating some EXTREMELY strict Federal laws, and The Man will put you in prison for MANY years. Whether those laws are Constitutional is a subject for a different thread... but the fact remains that, if you are found doing that today, you can kiss most of the rest of your life goodbye AFTER you exhaust your savings on a (futile) legal defense.

Even DISCUSSING how to make a gun bump-fire continuously, is an equal violation of said laws, and the same penalties apply. If you want to claim 1st amendment or 2nd amendment protection, you can do so... from inside your jail cell while Big Tyrone and his Nancy Boys from Cell Block 13a have their way with you. Good luck with that.

No, I am not kidding. On any point in this post.

[J.T]

If you do it, BTW, you are violating some EXTREMELY strict Federal laws, and The Man will put you in prison for MANY years.

There is no law against bump firing. There are laws only against modifying the weapon or using some additional devices (eg: ring and string) to achieve it.



Even DISCUSSING how to make a gun bump-fire continuously, is an equal violation of said laws, and the same penalties apply.
Cite.

If bump firing were illegal, why would the BATF approve the slide stock, which advertizes itself as being expressly intended to aid in the practice?

[ConHog]

Those videos just make me want an AR15-- if it weren't for the weather, I'd be outta CA so quick.

Oh yea Sidenote--I think the exemption for the gatling gun linked by JT may be due to the fact it fires a rimfire cartridge.

No, the Gat is legal because it is operated by a hand crank, and so doesn't qualify as an automatic weapon under ATF rules. A technicality to be sure, but one that is legal. And they aren't likely to change it for two reasons. 1. How many people can afford a hundred thousand dollar Gat and 2. How many shooting sprees are likely to happen involving them anyway?

[logroller]

No, the Gat is legal because it is operated by a hand crank, and so doesn't qualify as an automatic weapon under ATF rules. A technicality to be sure, but one that is legal. And they aren't likely to change it for two reasons. 1. How many people can afford a hundred thousand dollar Gat and 2. How many shooting sprees are likely to happen involving them anyway?
From the looks of the site its around $1000, not including taxes and any additional labor/gunsmithing.

[ConHog]

From the looks of the site its around $1000, not including taxes and any additional labor/gunsmithing.

Oh, I was thinking about a REAL Gatling gun, not the fake things.

[J.T]

. 1. How many people can afford a hundred thousand dollar Gat and 2. How many shooting sprees are likely to happen involving them anyway?

Wouldn't those same arguments apply equally to the minigun, especially if you think of it as a Gatling gun with the crankshaft hooked up to a motor, making it effectively the same weapon, since any criminal who wanted to could easily attach a small motor or engine to any legal Gatling?

And yet... Gatlings are legal... and motors are legal... but when was the last time there was a mass shooting using such a thing?




and for the record, I in noway think a private citizen should be able to own a Minigun.

So why not, exactly? What's the difference? The motor? Any criminal could easily attach one, and yet it never happens.

[ConHog]

Wouldn't those same arguments apply equally to the minigun, especially if you think of it as a Gatling gun with the crankshaft hooked up to a motor, making it effectively the same weapon, since any criminal who wanted to could easily attach a small motor or engine to any legal Gatling?

And yet... Gatlings are legal... and motors are legal... but when was the last time there was a mass shooting using such a thing?



So why not, exactly? What's the difference? The motor? Any criminal could easily attach one, and yet it never happens.

As explained, the ACTUAL reason a Gatling Gun is legal is because it is not motorized or automatic. Therefor altering a Gatling gun by attaching a motor to it would in fact make it an illegal weapon.

[J.T]

As explained, the ACTUAL reason a Gatling Gun is legal is because it is not motorized or automatic. Therefor altering a Gatling gun by attaching a motor to it would in fact make it an illegal weapon.
No shit, dumbfuck- I'm the one who explained that.

Try reading the post you just quoted

any criminal who wanted to could easily attach a small motor or engine to any legal Gatling.

And yet... Gatlings are legal... and motors are legal... but when was the last time there was a mass shooting using such a thing?




So why are you so afraid of law-abiding citizens being able to buy a minigun if they want to and can afford one? Clearly it's not that hard for a criminal to have one if they have a gatling, a small rotor, and some jb-weld to attach the crankshaft to the drive-shaft of the motor. and yet there's no epidemic of drive-bys or other weapons using such a minigun (automated Gatling). Why would you expect it to suddenly become a problem if those who obey the law were allowed to buy what criminals can already have anyway? You sound like KRB with his AK-phobia

[ConHog]

No shit, dumbfuck- I'm the one who explained that.

Try reading the post you just quoted

any criminal who wanted to could easily attach a small motor or engine to any legal Gatling.

And yet... Gatlings are legal... and motors are legal... but when was the last time there was a mass shooting using such a thing?




So why are you so afraid of law-abiding citizens being able to buy a minigun if they want to and can afford one? Clearly it's not that hard for a criminal to have one if they have a gatling, a small rotor, and some jb-weld to attach the crankshaft to the drive-shaft of the motor. and yet there's no epidemic of drive-bys or other weapons using such a minigun (automated Gatling). Why would you expect it to suddenly become a problem if those who obey the law were allowed to buy what criminals can already have anyway? You sound like KRB with his AK-phobia


Your childish insults aside where did I say I was afraid of law abiding citizens being able to buy a mini gun?

[J.T]

and for the record, I in noway think a private citizen should be able to own a Minigun.

So you've disowned this post and changed your position?

Can we ever go a single thread without you having to backpedal?

[logroller]

Wouldn't those same arguments apply equally to the minigun, especially if you think of it as a Gatling gun with the crankshaft hooked up to a motor, making it effectively the same weapon, since any criminal who wanted to could easily attach a small motor or engine to any legal Gatling?

And yet... Gatlings are legal... and motors are legal... but when was the last time there was a mass shooting using such a thing?



So why not, exactly? What's the difference? The motor? Any criminal could easily attach one, and yet it never happens.

To answer your question, I offer an analogy:

You can pick your friends, and you can pick your nose--but you shouldn't pick your friend's nose.