GW quote? Is that legit?

[Noir]

For the quote you use in your sig.

I know I have asked you before in threads and you have refused to answer, but given it's been *months* and it's still in your sig I thought I'd try again.

From my own looking on snoops I found this...

The complete quote that's (incorrectly, it turns out) attributed to Washington is,

"It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible."

Paul Boller and John George, who co-wrote They Never Said It: A Book of Fake Quotes, Misquotes, & Misleading Attributions, indicate that no one's found any evidence that Washington ever wrote or spoke such a thing. And Boller's written separately on the topic of "Washington and Religion" before, so he would know.

(I see that some sites on the Internet maintain that Washington issued this statement on 17 September 1796, which happens to be the date on which he delivered his famous farewell address. That line in nowhere to be found in his farewell.)

So please cite your source that gives you the confidence to have it known that the founding father ever said such a thing, less you be misquoting him.

[J.T]

http://fakehistory.wordpress.com/2009/07/03/fake-quotations-washington-and-governing-without-god/

[J.T]

GW wasn't even a Christian. He was a Freemason.

[Noir]

GW wasn't even a Christian. He was a Freemason.

I know next to nothing of the Masons, but am assuming that if the original quote, before it was twisted, is true then the Masons are Deistic as apose to theistic? (just given the wording of the supposed quote)

Which would makes abbeys quote even sillier...

[J.T]

We have abundant reason to rejoice, that, in this land, the light of truth and reason has triumphed over the power of bigotry and superstition, and that every person may here worship God according to the dictates of his own heart. In this enlightened age, & in this land of equal liberty, it is our boast, that a man's religious tenets will not forfeit the protection of the laws, nor deprive him of the right of attaining & holding the highest offices that are known in the United States.
-George Washington

When the clergy addressed General Washington on his departure from the government, it was observed in their consultation that he had never on any occasion said a word to the public which showed a belief in the Christian religion and they thought they should so pen their address as to force him at length to declare publicly whether he was a Christian or not. They did so. However [Dr. Rush] observed the old fox was too cunning for them. He answered every article of their address particularly except that, which he passed over without notice. Rush observes he never did say a word on the subject in any of his public papers except in his valedictory letter to the Governors of the states when he resigned his commission in the army, wherein he speaks of the benign influence of the Christian religion. I know that Gouvemeur Morris, who pretended to be in his secrets & believed himself to be so, has often told me that General Washington believed no more of that system than he himself did.

Thomas Jefferson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Jefferson), the Anas (1 February 1800), on George Washington (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Washington)'s absent Christianity. Published in The Works of Thomas Jefferson in Twelve Volumes (http://oll.libertyfund.org/ToC/0054.php), Federal Edition (1904) edited by Paul Leicester Ford (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Leicester_Ford), Vol. 1 (http://oll.libertyfund.org/Texts/Jefferson0136/Works/0054-01_Bk.pdf), pp. 352–353.

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/George_Washington

[fj1200]

GW wasn't even a Christian. He was a Freemason.

Freemasonry is not a religion.


Freemasonry explicitly and openly states that it is neither a religion nor a substitute for one. "There is no separate Masonic God", nor a separate proper name for a deity in any branch of Freemasonry.[28] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freemasonry#cite_note-a_religion.3F-27)[59]

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freemasonry#cite_note-58)Regular Freemasonry requires that its candidates believe in a Supreme Being, but the interpretation of this term is subject to the conscience of the candidate. Consequently, Freemasonry accepts men from a range of faiths, including (but not limited to) Buddhism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism), Christianity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity), Hinduism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinduism), Islam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam),Judaism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism), and Sikhism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikhism). As a result, Freemasonry uses Volume of the Sacred Law (VSL) as a generic term for a religious book. As UGLE-based Freemasonry also requires that a VSL be present on the Altar, many Lodges have multiple VSLs available, and a candidate can be obligated on his book of choice.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freemasonry#Membership_and_religion

Bolding added and apparently required for some. :rolleyes:

[J.T]

I know next to nothing of the Masons, but am assuming that if the original quote, before it was twisted, is true then the Masons are Deistic as apose to theistic?

Publicly, yes. If you actually read Masonic texts, it's a conglomeration of pseudochristian language, hermieticism, and various occult theories and practices.

Some relevant texts can be downloaded here
(http://knowledgefiles.com/view-all-books/)
http://www.sacred-texts.com/sro/pc/index.htm

Contemporary accounts seem to indicate that GW himself was not active in the lodge or interested in the Masonic practices. for him, it seems to have been little more than a club he was invited to once or twice. He also seems to have skipped the various orgies and other vices certain FF among the order were alleged to have partook of.

[J.T]

Freemasonry is not a religion.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freemasonry#Membership_and_religion

Bolding added and apparently required for some. :rolleyes:

Especially for idiots like you who highlight the fact that it draws from more than one of the major faiths and miss that it proves my point that he wasn't a Christian.

While JudeaoChristian language is found, this is mostly the case in the older texts (such as the Regius Manuscript and references to Jachin and Boaz and the Temple of Solomon)- and even then, it claims the teachings and traditions are far older than the Christian religion.

Again, there's a lot of what's basically Hermeticism. This is antithetical to Christianity. Christianity holds that seeking after knowledge was a sin (Garden of Eden, remember?). This is also found elsewhere, such as Prometheus being punished, like the serpent, for bringing illumination to Mankind. Masonry honours Prometheus (as Hermes) and glorifies the pursuit of occult (hidden) knowledge.

Do you know anything about the subject other than what you read just now on Wikipedia?

[fj1200]

Especially for idiots like you who highlight the fact that it draws from more than one of the major faiths and miss that it proves my point that he wasn't a Christian.

...

Do you know anything about the subject other than what you read just now on Wikipedia?

Wikipedia is enough to demonstrate that you're wrong especially as it shows that while he may have been a freemason that has zero to do with whether he was Christian or not.

Why are you angry at God?

[ConHog]

Wikipedia is enough to demonstrate that you're wrong especially as it shows that because he may have been a freemason has zero to do with whether he was Christian or not.

Why are you angry at God?



I have to admit that I might be pissed at God if I were JT to.

Seriously, George Washington absolutely believed in God and Jesus Christ, that's a matter of historical record. JT's ramblings will never change that.

[Gunny]

Especially for idiots like you who highlight the fact that it draws from more than one of the major faiths and miss that it proves my point that he wasn't a Christian.

While JudeaoChristian language is found, this is mostly the case in the older texts (such as the Regius Manuscript and references to Jachin and Boaz and the Temple of Solomon)- and even then, it claims the teachings and traditions are far older than the Christian religion.

Again, there's a lot of what's basically Hermeticism. This is antithetical to Christianity. Christianity holds that seeking after knowledge was a sin (Garden of Eden, remember?). This is also found elsewhere, such as Prometheus being punished, like the serpent, for bringing illumination to Mankind. Masonry honours Prometheus (as Hermes) and glorifies the pursuit of occult (hidden) knowledge.

Do you know anything about the subject other than what you read just now on Wikipedia?

Nothing you have posted proves he wasn't Christian. You have proven only that he didn't speak of the topic; which, means nothing. Not to mention being a Freemason does not preclude one from also being Christian. Your assumptions are baseless and contradictory in places, and just another example of your dishonest semantics cherry picking facts.

[KartRacerBoy]

A number of the founding fathers weren't Christian. Several were deists. Can't remember which ones. I believe TJ was a deist, for example. If you're truly interested, read Leonard W Levy's "Establishment Clause: Religion and the 1st Amendment." Pretty easy and quick read (185 pgs) that discusses the various beliefs of the founders.

Edit - At least one historian thinks GW was a deist:

In Virginia, Washington was a member of the Anglican Church (http://www.debatepolicy.com/wiki/Anglican_Church),[186] (http://www.debatepolicy.com/#cite_note-twsJunIwq3-194) which had 'established status' (meaning tax money was used to pay its minister). As a leading land owner he served on the vestry (http://www.debatepolicy.com/wiki/Vestry) (governing board) for Christ Church in Alexandria, Virginia and for Pohick Church near his Mount Vernon home until the war began. The parish was the unit of local government and the vestry dealt mostly with civic affairs such as roads and poor relief.[187] (http://www.debatepolicy.com/#cite_note-195)
According to historian Paul F. Boller Jr., "Washington was in fact a typical 18th-century deist (http://www.debatepolicy.com/wiki/Deism)."[188] (http://www.debatepolicy.com/#cite_note-196)[189] (http://www.debatepolicy.com/#cite_note-twsMarE19-197) Boller finds that "Washington seems to have had the characteristic unconcern of the eighteenth-century Deist for the forms and creeds of institutional religion. He had, moreover, the strong aversion of the upper-class Deist for sectarian quarrels that threatened to upset the 'peace of Society'."[190] (http://www.debatepolicy.com/#cite_note-198) Washington never made attempts to personalize his own religious views or express any appeal to the aesthetic side of biblical passages. Boller states that Washington's "allusions to religion are almost totally lacking in depths of feeling."[191] (http://www.debatepolicy.com/#cite_note-199) In philosophical terms, he admired and adopted the Stoic philosophy of the ancient Romans, which emphasized virtue and humanitarianism and was highly compatible with Deism.[192] (http://www.debatepolicy.com/#cite_note-200) Historian Patrick Allitt (http://www.debatepolicy.com/wiki/Patrick_Allitt) characterized Washington's religious views as "lukewarm", and said "he went through the motions but he clearly wasn't a man of particular piety (http://www.debatepolicy.com/wiki/Piety) or devotion."[186] (http://www.debatepolicy.com/#cite_note-twsJunIwq3-194)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_washington#Religion

[J.T]

Not to mention being a Freemason does not preclude one from also being Christian.

Hermeticism (or any other occultism) and Christianity are mutually exclusive. So too is Christianity incompatible with any doctrine which teaches that one can become as God through one's own efforts. Try reading the bible some time.

Of course, you probably think the Universal Roman Church is Christian, too :laugh:

[ConHog]

Hermeticism (or any other occultism) and Christianity are mutually exclusive. So too is Christianity incompatible with any doctrine which teaches that one can become as God through one's own efforts. Try reading the bible some time.

Of course, you probably think the Universal Roman Church is Christian, too :laugh:

Actually, Christianity teaches that we SHOULD strive to God like in our actions.

[ConHog]

A number of the founding fathers weren't Christian. Several were deists. Can't remember which ones. I believe TJ was a deist, for example. If you're truly interested, read Leonard W Levy's "Establishment Clause: Religion and the 1st Amendment." Pretty easy and quick read (185 pgs) that discusses the various beliefs of the founders.

Edit - At least one historian thinks GW was a deist:

In Virginia, Washington was a member of the Anglican Church (http://www.debatepolicy.com/wiki/Anglican_Church),[186] (http://www.debatepolicy.com/#cite_note-twsJunIwq3-194) which had 'established status' (meaning tax money was used to pay its minister). As a leading land owner he served on the vestry (http://www.debatepolicy.com/wiki/Vestry) (governing board) for Christ Church in Alexandria, Virginia and for Pohick Church near his Mount Vernon home until the war began. The parish was the unit of local government and the vestry dealt mostly with civic affairs such as roads and poor relief.[187] (http://www.debatepolicy.com/#cite_note-195)
According to historian Paul F. Boller Jr., "Washington was in fact a typical 18th-century deist (http://www.debatepolicy.com/wiki/Deism)."[188] (http://www.debatepolicy.com/#cite_note-196)[189] (http://www.debatepolicy.com/#cite_note-twsMarE19-197) Boller finds that "Washington seems to have had the characteristic unconcern of the eighteenth-century Deist for the forms and creeds of institutional religion. He had, moreover, the strong aversion of the upper-class Deist for sectarian quarrels that threatened to upset the 'peace of Society'."[190] (http://www.debatepolicy.com/#cite_note-198) Washington never made attempts to personalize his own religious views or express any appeal to the aesthetic side of biblical passages. Boller states that Washington's "allusions to religion are almost totally lacking in depths of feeling."[191] (http://www.debatepolicy.com/#cite_note-199) In philosophical terms, he admired and adopted the Stoic philosophy of the ancient Romans, which emphasized virtue and humanitarianism and was highly compatible with Deism.[192] (http://www.debatepolicy.com/#cite_note-200) Historian Patrick Allitt (http://www.debatepolicy.com/wiki/Patrick_Allitt) characterized Washington's religious views as "lukewarm", and said "he went through the motions but he clearly wasn't a man of particular piety (http://www.debatepolicy.com/wiki/Piety) or devotion."[186] (http://www.debatepolicy.com/#cite_note-twsJunIwq3-194)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_washington#Religion







A very LOW number weren't Christians.

http://www.adherents.com/gov/Founding_Fathers_Religion.html


Read this site and get back to us about how the FF weren't Christians.

As for George Washington, he was Episcopalian.

[J.T]

Actually, Christianity teaches that we SHOULD strive to God like in our actions.
More dishonest wordplay.

Of course, if you really think you should slaughter millions, then perhaps you should find a more peaceful religion.

Christianity teaches you to be like Jesus, not god the father, which Christians always refer to as God.

And being like Jesus in one's actions (you know, selling all your possessions, being a roaming communist, rejecting material wealth...) and becoming as a god are two very different things. Else Isaiah wouldn't describe aspirations to be like the most high as a bad thing.

Again, if you don't know what Masonry and Hermeticism are, you should probably just stop making an idiot of yourself.

[ConHog]

More dishonest wordplay.

Of course, if you really think you should slaughter millions, then perhaps you should find a more peaceful religion.

Christianity teaches you to be like Jesus, not god the father, which Christians always refer to as God.

And being like Jesus in one's actions (you know, selling all your possessions, being a roaming communist, rejecting material wealth...) and becoming as a god are two very different things. Else Isaiah wouldn't describe aspirations to be like the most high as a bad thing.

Again, if you don't know what Masonry and Hermeticism are, you should probably just stop making an idiot of yourself.

Ever hear of the Trinity? God and Jesus are one and the same. So it is YOU who are being dishonest, and NO ONE is surprised by THAT.

Oh, please cite where Jesus sold all of His belongings, rejected material wealth, or acted like a Communist.... Oh that's right, you can't.

[J.T]

Oh, please cite where Jesus sold all of His belongings, rejected material wealth, or acted like a Communist.... Oh that's right, you can't.

Where did Jesus work? Oh wait, he was a mooching bum

<cite>Therefore, I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink, or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing? Look at the birds of the air, they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. -- Matthew 6:25-26</cite>

Jesus saves? The man was the worst fiscal planner ever

Therefore do not worry, saying, 'What will we eat?' or 'What will we wear?' For it is the nations who strive for all these things. But strive first for the kingdom of God and its righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. Therefore don't worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry for itself; sufficient to the day is the trouble thereof. -- Matthew 6:31-34

Jesus were a bunch of unwashed hippies

Then Pharisees and scribes came to Jesus from Jerusalem and said, "Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands before they eat." -- Matthew 15:1-2

When he was speaking, a Pharisee invited him to dine with him; so he went in and took his place at the table. The Pharisee was amazed to see that he did not first wash before dinner. -- Luke 11:37-38

and communists
And all those who had believed were together and had all things in common;
Acts 2:4432 (http://bible.cc/acts/4-32.htm)All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they shared everything they had. 33 (http://bible.cc/acts/4-33.htm)With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and much grace was upon them all. 34 (http://bible.cc/acts/4-34.htm)There were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned lands or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales 35 (http://bible.cc/acts/4-35.htm)and put it at the apostles’ feet, and it was distributed to anyone as he had need.
Acts 4

You lack one thing; go, sell what you own, and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; then come, follow me. -- Mark 10:21

who advocated a welfare system for those too lazy to fish
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+14%3A13-21&version=NIV
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark+6%3A30-44&version=NIV
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+9%3A10-17&version=NIV
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+6%3A1-14&version=NKJV

typical unwashed hippie: no job, no responsibility, always wanting someone else to feed him and his friends

All that's missing in some weed and a jam session

[ConHog]

Where did Jesus work? Oh wait, he was a mooching bum

<cite>Therefore, I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink, or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing? Look at the birds of the air, they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. -- Matthew 6:25-26</cite>

Jesus saves? The man was the worst fiscal planner ever

Therefore do not worry, saying, 'What will we eat?' or 'What will we wear?' For it is the nations who strive for all these things. But strive first for the kingdom of God and its righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. Therefore don't worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry for itself; sufficient to the day is the trouble thereof. -- Matthew 6:31-34

Jesus were a bunch of unwashed hippies

Then Pharisees and scribes came to Jesus from Jerusalem and said, "Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands before they eat." -- Matthew 15:1-2

When he was speaking, a Pharisee invited him to dine with him; so he went in and took his place at the table. The Pharisee was amazed to see that he did not first wash before dinner. -- Luke 11:37-38

and communists
And all those who had believed were together and had all things in common;
Acts 2:4432 (http://bible.cc/acts/4-32.htm)All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they shared everything they had. 33 (http://bible.cc/acts/4-33.htm)With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and much grace was upon them all. 34 (http://bible.cc/acts/4-34.htm)There were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned lands or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales 35 (http://bible.cc/acts/4-35.htm)and put it at the apostles’ feet, and it was distributed to anyone as he had need.
Acts 4

You lack one thing; go, sell what you own, and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; then come, follow me. -- Mark 10:21

who advocated a welfare system for those too lazy to fish
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+14%3A13-21&version=NIV
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark+6%3A30-44&version=NIV
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+9%3A10-17&version=NIV
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+6%3A1-14&version=NKJV

typical unwashed hippie: no job, no responsibility, always wanting someone else to feed him and his friends

All that's missing in some weed and a jam session

You remind me of one of those clowns who claims he hates Rush Limbaugh but sure spends a lot of time listening to him on the radio. You spend A LOT of time (mis)interpreting the Bible.

[KartRacerBoy]

A very LOW number weren't Christians.

http://www.adherents.com/gov/Founding_Fathers_Religion.html


Read this site and get back to us about how the FF weren't Christians.

As for George Washington, he was Episcopalian.

It's actually funny watch you jerk like a marionette if someone challenges your assertions or beliefs. If you read my post, you will see that I said some of the Constitutional delegates and guys like TJ were deists. However, I will say that just because someone attends a church, it doesn't mean they are necessarily beleivers. Some folks attend for show -- politiicians, for example. Or they attend to please their spoiuse. My protestant stepdad goes to Catholic mass with my mom to please her but he's not catholic.

Being a deist, athesit, or whatever back in 1700s probably didn't make one any more popular than someone today announcing they are a deist or atheist or nonchristian. Look at Huntsman and Romney and some of the RW attacking them as nonchiristian even though their faith espouse Christ as the son of God. There is much political expediency in declaring faith of the majority, whether you truly believe it or not.

A book I recently read, "American Collosus: An Economic history of the US from 1865 to 1900" noted that CHURCH ATTENDANCE and announced religious affliliation is at the highest it has ever been in the USA right now. It steadily climbed from the creation of the US by the Constitution from some number below 40% to something near 75% (IIRC) near 1900. These numbers don't necessarily reflect religious BELIEF of course since one can believe without church affliation. Also, less work time as the nation becomes more industrialized means more leisure time for worship. A farmer working 7 days/wk may not take time for church while a 6 or 5 day/wk worker might. Still, it gives some indication that our nation was LESS religious when the nation was formed than it is currently. Maybe.

But I think trying to scream we are a christian nation becz all of our founders were so christian is a tenuous claim. Trying to prove what some founder's beliefs were regarding religion is probably not going to hold up unless they wrote or spoke on the subject in a non-political forum. Politician feign belief now and I'll bet they did the same back then. There really is no way to know.

[ConHog]

It's actually funny watch you jerk like a marionette if someone challenges your assertions or beliefs. If you read my post, you will see that I said some of the Constitutional delegates and guys like TJ were deists. However, I will say that just because someone attends a church, it doesn't mean they are necessarily beleivers. Some folks attend for show -- politiicians, for example. Or they attend to please their spoiuse. My protestant stepdad goes to Catholic mass with my mom to please her but he's not catholic.

Being a deist, athesit, or whatever back in 1700s probably didn't make one any more popular than someone today announcing they are a deist or atheist or nonchristian. Look at Huntsman and Romney and some of the RW attacking them as nonchiristian even though their faith espouse Christ as the son of God. There is much political expediency in declaring faith of the majority, whether you truly believe it or not.

A book I recently read, "American Collosus: An Economic history of the US from 1865 to 1900" noted that CHURCH ATTENDANCE and announced religious affliliation is at the highest it has ever been in the USA right now. It steadily climbed from the creation of the US by the Constitution from some number below 40% to something near 75% (IIRC) near 1900. These numbers don't necessarily reflect religious BELIEF of course since one can believe without church affliation. Also, less work time as the nation becomes more industrialized means more leisure time for worship. A farmer working 7 days/wk may not take time for church while a 6 or 5 day/wk worker might. Still, it gives some indication that our nation was LESS religious when the nation was formed than it is currently. Maybe.

But I think trying to scream we are a christian nation becz all of our founders were so christian is a tenuous claim. Trying to prove what some founder's beliefs were regarding religion is probably not going to hold up unless they wrote or spoke on the subject in a non-political forum. Politician feign belief now and I'll bet they did the same back then. There really is no way to know.

I'm beginning to think you just have the reading comprehension skills of a really slow 6th grader. I said NOTHING about my beliefs or assertions. Nor did I say that the fact that most of our founding fathers were Christians proves that we were founded as a Christian nation. I merely pointed out that you claiming most of them were not Christians is incorrect. Then you want to try to claim that just because someoene says they are a Christian doesn't mean they were? LOL . Politics was an entirely different game then than it is now, at least in the US. and politicians were WAY more honest about such things.

But hey, if you wanna keep being a childish butt hurt idiot in thread after thread, be my guest.

[KartRacerBoy]

I'm beginning to think you just have the reading comprehension skills of a really slow 6th grader. I said NOTHING about my beliefs or assertions. Nor did I say that the fact that most of our founding fathers were Christians proves that we were founded as a Christian nation. I merely pointed out that you claiming most of them were not Christians is incorrect. Then you want to try to claim that just because someoene says they are a Christian doesn't mean they were? LOL . Politics was an entirely different game then than it is now, at least in the US. and politicians were WAY more honest about such things.

But hey, if you wanna keep being a childish butt hurt idiot in thread after thread, be my guest.

Cartman, you misunderstand me. I really begin to doubt that you even graduated HS let alone achieved a Masters. Was it at some kind of community college?

I've never said MOST of the founding fathers were not Christians. I never even said most were Deists. I said many things that seem to be too subtle for you to understand. Not my fault, fuckface. You are the apparent limiting factor in comprehension. Although your belief that politicians were WAY more honest about such things back then paints you as naive, at best.

If you want to purport to KNOW history, you should read more than the just fiction. Your education obviously failed you, so you should work on it post retirement.

[ConHog]

Cartman, you misunderstand me. I really begin to doubt that you even graduated HS let alone achieved a Masters. Was it at some kind of community college?

I've never said MOST of the founding fathers were not Christians. I never even said most were Deists. I said many things that seem to be too subtle for you to understand. Not my fault, fuckface. You are the apparent limiting factor in comprehension. Although your belief that politicians were WAY more honest about such things back then paints you as naive, at best.

If you want to purport to KNOW history, you should read more than the just fiction. Your education obviously failed you, so you should work on it post retirement.

In other words, you admit that you misread my post, claimed I said things I didn't say and now instead of being a man and issuing a mea culpa here you have to resort to name calling.... On the plus side at least you left my wife out of your foul mouthed rampage this time.

[KartRacerBoy]

In other words, you admit that you misread my post, claimed I said things I didn't say and now instead of being a man and issuing a mea culpa here you have to resort to name calling.... On the plus side at least you left my wife out of your foul mouthed rampage this time.

Nothing of the sort, Cartman. And you already know what I think of your wife's legal skills.

[ConHog]

Nothing of the sort, Cartman. And you already know what I think of your wife's legal skills.

She's IN the profession, you are not. Tells us all we all need to know .

[J.T]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xU24fJ4NQxo

[J.T]

I am not less ardent in my wish that you may succeed in your plan of toleration in religious matters. Being no bigot myself, I am disposed to indulge the professors of Christianity in the church with that road to heaven which to them shall seem the most direct, plainest, easiest, and least liable to exception.

[avatar4321]

GW wasn't even a Christian. He was a Freemason.

I suggest you read Sacred Fire sometime. He was a very Christian, but private man.