Obama calls for increasing the gasoline tax

[Little-Acorn]

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/08/31/obama-calls-for-extension-gas-tax-to-fund-highway-construction-repair/

Obama Calls for Extension of Gas Tax to Fund Highway Construction, Repair

Published August 31, 2011
FoxNews.com

President Obama called on Congress Wednesday to pass a transportation funding bill that includes an extension of the federal gas tax, claiming the move would protect about 1 million jobs.

At issue is the renewal of a transportation spending bill that expires Sept. 30.

"That's just not acceptable. It's inexcusable," he said.

Though the president describes the proposal as a transportation bill, its key component is the federal gas tax, which has been 18.4 cents per gallon for nearly two decades. The money is used to fund road construction and repair, as well as other projects -- the tax costs Americans an average of $100 a year.

The call for renewal comes as gas prices remain high -- the national average for a gallon of regular is about $3.62, a dollar more than a year ago. Some conservatives want to allow states, not the federal government, to raise and spend the gas tax money.


(Full text of the article can be read at the above URL)

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BTW, when Obama was campaigning (before the 2008 election I mean), he said repeatedly that there would be no tax increases on anyone making less than $200K/yr, during his administration. And he still maintains this is true.

When people pointed out that he was pushing for letting the Bush tax cuts expire, and that taxes WOULD go up on the people he mentioned during his administration if this happened, he replied that those taxes were scheduled to do that by the people who had passed them, and so it wasn't really a "tax increase under his administration", it was just taxes doing what the people before him had mandated them to do.

If that's so, then wouldn't Obama's calling for the Federal Gas Tax to be extended (instead of expiring as it was mandated long ago, to do in September 2011) be a "tax increase during his administration"?

You can't have it both ways, Mr. President.

Which is it? Are the Bush tax cuts expiring as scheduled, a tax increase under you? Or is your extending the Federal Gas Tax beyond its scheduled expiration, a tax increase under you?

[KartRacerBoy]

I'm torn by this. Clearly work on our road, bridges, and highways needs to be done. And long term I thing the gas tax should be even higher (although given the economy, now isn't the time to raise it). On the other hand, the gas tax is regressive and reduces consumption. So should we go ahead with work on roads etc without extending this tax (more debt)? Or should we extend the tax and proceed with construction? I lean toward the former.

[ConHog]

The title of this thread is patently dishonest. Obama didn't call for an increase in the federal gas tax, he merely called for a continuation of the existing federal gas tax.

[Little-Acorn]

The title of this thread is patently dishonest. Obama didn't call for an increase in the federal gas tax, he merely called for a continuation of the existing federal gas tax.

Didn't even read the entire post, did we?

[ConHog]

Didn't even read the entire post, did we?

Yes, I read the whole thing, and your title says something entirely different than the article you quoted does. he did NOT call for an increase in anything.

[Little-Acorn]

your title says something entirely different than the article you quoted does.

It was the title for the entire post, not just for the article.


he did NOT call for an increase in anything.

Already refuted in the OP.

See the part after the dotted line.

[ConHog]

It was the title for the entire post, not just for the article.



Already refuted in the OP.

See the part after the dotted line.

Once again, an EXTENSION of an existing tax is NOT an increase.

Let's say you get $200 every week and I come by on Friday and collect $10 of it. Now let's say KRB takes over for me and says " I know the $10 fee was supposed to expire but I'm going to keep collecting it" is that a freaking increase? No, of course it isn't you still are giving someone $10.

It's dishonest to say that Obama just suggested raising the federal gas tax when all he did was suggest that we keep paying the same tax we are NOW paying.

[Little-Acorn]

Once again, an EXTENSION of an existing tax is NOT an increase.

I have already listed reasons why it is, in fact, and increase. Did you have any counterarguments?

Or are you just going to clap your hands over your ears and run in circles yelling, "No it isn't, no it isn't, no it isn't!!!" ?


Let's say you get $200 every week and I come by on Friday and collect $10 of it.

Say you'll collect a punch in the nose. What makes you think you have any right to $10 of my money?


Now let's say KRB takes over for me and says " I know the $10 fee was supposed to expire but I'm going to keep collecting it" is that a freaking increase?

Mm Hmm. Identical situation, identical increase. For identical reasons.


No, of course it isn't you still are giving someone $10.

I hope this KRB has a quick-healing nose. He'll need it.

[KartRacerBoy]

Acorn, ConHog, you two are in silly semantic argument that evades the issue and seeks to cast it in a political rather than logic light. The question is whether we need to fund road repairs and how to do it. Not whether to call it an increase or a continuation. But that's politics.

[ConHog]

I have already listed reasons why it is, in fact, and increase. Did you have any counterarguments?

Or are you just going to clap your hands over your ears and run in circles yelling, "No it isn't, no it isn't, no it isn't!!!" ?



Say you'll collect a punch in the nose. What makes you think you have any right to $10 of my money?



Mm Hmm. Identical situation, identical increase. For identical reasons.



I hope this KRB has a quick-healing nose. He'll need it.



Why didn't you just respond with

I want to continue dishonestly claiming that continuing to collect what we are already collecting is an increase , so leave me alone?"

I would have respect you more.

I'm done in this thread, Not a single person here truly believes that Obama just suggested an increase, including yourself.

[Little-Acorn]

Acorn, ConHog, you two are in silly semantic argument that evades the issue and seeks to cast it in a political rather than logic light.

The arguments I made in the OP exactly address the real "issue", which the President has tried to conceal with what you call "semantics". ConHog continues to ignore the points made, and has now run away... his problem, not mine.


The question is whether we need to fund road repairs and how to do it.

Who's "we"?

(This is the next part of the issue. Thanks for moving on to it.)

[KartRacerBoy]

Who's "we"?

(This is the next part of the issue. Thanks for moving on to it.)



The folks that use the roads, bridges. So that would be the citizens of the USA.

[Little-Acorn]

The folks that use the roads, bridges. So that would be the citizens of the USA.

Very good.

And how will they pay for it?

By paying for what they use, according to how much they use?

Or by forcing people to pay who don't use it that much, while exacting little or no payment from those who use it more than they pay for?

[ConHog]

Very good.

And how will they pay for it?

By paying for what they use, according to how much they use?

Or by forcing people to pay who don't use it that much, while exacting little or no payment from those who use it more than they pay for?

You're really building a tower of babble in this thread.

[KartRacerBoy]

Very good.

And how will they pay for it?

By paying for what they use, according to how much they use?

Or by forcing people to pay who don't use it that much, while exacting little or no payment from those who use it more than they pay for?

Well a gas tax is as close as a user fee that one can have absent every road being a toll road. Using gas means you're driving on the road.

You seem to think a user fee like a federal gas tax is appropriate, but then you cry Obama is "raising taxes" in a manner that suggests that you think such a tax is wrong. You can't have it both ways.

[ConHog]

Well a gas tax is as close as a user fee that one can have absent every road being a toll road. Using gas means you're driving on the road.

You seem to think a user fee like a federal gas tax is appropriate, but then you cry Obama is "raising taxes" in a manner that suggests that you think such a tax is wrong. You can't have it both ways.

well, actually quite a bit of fuel is burned that isn't used on the highway. Four wheelers, boats, jet skis, wave runners, lawn mowers, etc etc.

[KartRacerBoy]

well, actually quite a bit of fuel is burned that isn't used on the highway. Four wheelers, boats, jet skis, wave runners, lawn mowers, etc etc.

I'll bet the VAST majority is used to travel on roads.

Do you have a better suggestion for a user fee than a gas tax?

[ConHog]

I'll bet the VAST majority is used to travel on roads.

Do you have a better suggestion for a user fee than a gas tax?

Do you have evidence that suggests I am against a federal gas tax




But since you asked. Yes I do, how about they quit wasting our god damned income tax and start collecting from those who aren't paying anything and then they wouldn't need to collect ADDITIONAL taxes that they have no Constitutional authority to collect in the first place? I mean there's an idea.

[KartRacerBoy]

Do you have evidence that suggests I am against a federal gas tax

But since you asked. Yes I do, how about they quit wasting our god damned income tax and start collecting from those who aren't paying anything and then they wouldn't need to collect ADDITIONAL taxes that they have no Constitutional authority to collect in the first place? I mean there's an idea.

Your post suggested that you didn't like the idea of a "user fee"/gas tax since you said much fuel wasn't used for road vehicles. Why so defensive?

And what a silly idea that is!

[ConHog]

Your post suggested that you didn't like the idea of a "user fee"/gas tax since you said much fuel wasn't used for road vehicles. Why so defensive?

And what a silly idea that is!

Not defensive at all. Merely pointing out that stating the fact that not ALL gasoline is used for hwy use doesn't necessarily mean that I oppose a gas tax.


Yes I realize the hilarity of suggesting that the government make EVERYONE pay income tax, and cut out the wasteful spending and the outright stealing of government money that goes on.

I'm saddened to see that you think it's silly to suggest.

[KartRacerBoy]

Not defensive at all. Merely pointing out that stating the fact that not ALL gasoline is used for hwy use doesn't necessarily mean that I oppose a gas tax.


Yes I realize the hilarity of suggesting that the government make EVERYONE pay income tax, and cut out the wasteful spending and the outright stealing of government money that goes on.

I'm saddened to see that you think it's silly to suggest.

If you don't know already, look up what a negative income tax is. It was, I believe, Uncle Milty's idea. One of the few of his I liked.

[Little-Acorn]

Well a gas tax is as close as a user fee that one can have
Until electric cars showed up.


absent every road being a toll road.
Toll roads used to be very inconvenient - you had to have exact change, and/or break your journey to line up in long lines to pay some guy who was half asleep. And if you didn't have the cash on hand, get out and walk.....

With the advent of transponders, that has all changed. They cost less than the little motor that drives the right-side passenger mirror on your car, and the people running the toll road can mail you a monthly bill like the electric company does.

Toll roads used to be a clumsy and ponderous way to pay for roads.

Today that can be changed.

And there is no need for the Federal government to get involved... not that there ever was.

And one fewer reason for Obama to pretend that a new extension of a tax, isn't an "increase"... nor for any of his apologists to try to defend his silliness on the matter.


(KRB's wishful attempts at mindreading deleted)

[KartRacerBoy]

Until electric cars showed up.


Toll roads used to be very inconvenient - you had to have exact change, and/or break your journey to line up in long lines to pay some guy who was half asleep. And if you didn't have the cash on hand, get out and walk.....

With the advent of transponders, that has all changed. They cost less than the little motor that drives the right-side passenger mirror on your car, and the people running the toll road can mail you a monthly bill like the electric company does.

Toll roads used to be a clumsy and ponderous way to pay for roads.

Today that can be changed.

And there is no need for the Federal government to get involved... not that there ever was.

So you want every road to be a toll road? You don't think bureaucracy will be involved? Or do you want every road to be run by a private company? :laugh::laugh::laugh:

You really think that will be more efficient than a gas tax? :laugh::laugh::laugh:

[ConHog]

Until electric cars showed up.


Toll roads used to be very inconvenient - you had to have exact change, and/or break your journey to line up in long lines to pay some guy who was half asleep. And if you didn't have the cash on hand, get out and walk.....

With the advent of transponders, that has all changed. They cost less than the little motor that drives the right-side passenger mirror on your car, and the people running the toll road can mail you a monthly bill like the electric company does.

Toll roads used to be a clumsy and ponderous way to pay for roads.

Today that can be changed.

And there is no need for the Federal government to get involved... not that there ever was.

And one fewer reason for Obama to pretend that a new extension of a tax, isn't an "increase"... nor for any of his apologists to try to defend his silliness on the matter.



First of all electric powered vehicles predate the internal combustion engine.

Second of all, oh yeah making all the roads in America private roads is an excellent idea. And what's more the government would not be involved at all. See electric plants and the airlines as examples of THAT.

[logroller]

well, actually quite a bit of fuel is burned that isn't used on the highway. Four wheelers, boats, jet skis, wave runners, lawn mowers, etc etc.

If you keep receipts and log all of your on-road mileage, you can deduct those taxes from off-road use from your taxes--most people can't be bothered however.
The OP did introduce an interesting question though; rather states, not the feds, should be responsible for gas taxes and road maintainance? Any thoughts?

[ConHog]

If you keep receipts and log all of your on-road mileage, you can deduct those taxes from off-road use from your taxes--most people can't be bothered however.
The OP did introduce an interesting question though; rather states, not the feds, should be responsible for gas taxes and road maintainance? Any thoughts?

THe states ARE responsible for road maintenance. There is no federal highway department. Nor is there any federal highway patrol. Which begs the question, what the hell is the federal government doing with that money anyway? Kicking it back to the states to repair the highways? It would seem simpler to just let the states collect the tax to begin with.

[logroller]

THe states ARE responsible for road maintenance. There is no federal highway department. Nor is there any federal highway patrol. Which begs the question, what the hell is the federal government doing with that money anyway? Kicking it back to the states to repair the highways? It would seem simpler to just let the states collect the tax to begin with.

i think you spot on con. as for what the feds do with that money and why; I'd guess it has something to do with apportionment and interstate commerce. Admittedly the taxes seem excessive in favor of the federal collections, but I don't really know how much of the fuel purchased in one state is used on the roads of another.

[logroller]

i think you spot on con. as for what the feds do with that money and why; I'd guess it has something to do with apportionment and interstate commerce. Admittedly the taxes seem excessive in favor of the federal collections, but I don't really know how much of the fuel purchased in one state is used on the roads of another.

Just got to thinking about my post, and realized Hawaii pays federal excise tax on gasoline. I'm just guessing there isn't a great deal of interstate driving going on in Hawaii.

[fj1200]

So should we go ahead with work on roads etc without extending this tax (more debt)? Or should we extend the tax and proceed with construction? I lean toward the former.

Extend the tax and go with the construction. Seems like an easy decision given that the revenues are designed for road maintenance/improvements.

[fj1200]

Just got to thinking about my post, and realized Hawaii pays federal excise tax on gasoline. I'm just guessing there isn't a great deal of interstate driving going on in Hawaii.

They do have an interstate in Hawaii though, seems about fair since plenty of interstates don't connect to other states, spurs, beltways, and such.

[fj1200]

THe states ARE responsible for road maintenance. There is no federal highway department. Nor is there any federal highway patrol. Which begs the question, what the hell is the federal government doing with that money anyway? Kicking it back to the states to repair the highways? It would seem simpler to just let the states collect the tax to begin with.


Unless Congress extends it, the 18.4 cents-a-gallon federal gas tax will expire on Sept. 30. Allowing that to happen would be tremendously destructive. It would bankrupt the already stressed Highway Trust Fund, with devastating effects on the country’s highways, bridges, mass transit systems and the economy as a whole.
...
Excise taxes on motor fuels account for nearly nine-tenths of the $37 billion trust fund. The fund has lately required annual infusions from the Treasury Department to break even, and its obligations are growing. The gas tax has not increased since 1993, and its buying power, accounting for inflation, is now only 11 cents. Meanwhile, Americans are driving many more miles, placing greater stresses on the highway system.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/16/opinion/the-clear-case-for-the-gas-tax.html

I would say use taxes are preferred to the money coming out of general revenues.

[logroller]

They do have an interstate in Hawaii though, seems about fair since plenty of interstates don't connect to other states, spurs, beltways, and such.

Well I'm not going to get into the obvious irony of interstates in hawaii, but practically (and semantically) I would disagree; as a designated interstate may not itself extend to other states, they certainly possess the capability, even high likelihood, of connecting those travelling between states. Whereas those on Hawaiian interstates possess little, if any, likelihood of being used in interstate travel.

[red states rule]

http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/kn083111dAPR20110830044526.jpg

[fj1200]

Well I'm not going to get into the obvious irony of interstates in hawaii... Whereas those on Hawaiian interstates possess little, if any, likelihood of being used in interstate travel.

Well of course. :slap: But I'd say it's pretty much a certainty that they would be used in interstate commerce.

[logroller]

http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/kn083111dAPR20110830044526.jpg

I'm gonna start a thread just for your most glorious regurgitations.

[logroller]

Well of course. :slap: But I'd say it's pretty much a certainty that they would be used in interstate commerce.

Oh right. I always forget about the all-encompassing commerce clause. Thanks for straightening me out.

[red states rule]

I'm gonna start a thread just for your most glorious regurgitations.

Since Obama has already raised taxes, so why would another time be any different?

[KartRacerBoy]

Oh right. I always forget about the all-encompassing commerce clause. Thanks for straightening me out.

Yup. Cz no one driving on the roads in Hawaii uses fuel from out of state. I'm sure all gasoline is produced in Hawaii for their use only. No interstate commerce there. I bet that ALL of the products transported over Hawaii's roads are ALL made in the Hawaian islands, too.

Please note the sarcasm in my post.

[fj1200]

Oh right. I always forget about the all-encompassing commerce clause. Thanks for straightening me out.

No problem, that commerce clause will get you every time.


Please note the sarcasm in my post.

You were about four posts late. :poke:

[KartRacerBoy]

You were about four posts late. :poke:

You sir, are an asshole. :laugh:

Paying attention is not my forte. Smart ass remarks a day late and a dollar short, yeah, I'm all about that. Call the ACLU. Sue me! :dance:

[red states rule]

You sir, are an asshole. :laugh:

Paying attention is not my forte. Smart ass remarks a day late and a dollar short, yeah, I'm all about that. Call the ACLU. Sue me! :dance:

You lecturing others about posting smart ass remarks is like Obama lecturing others on a lack of leadership and personal responsibility

[fj1200]

You sir, are an asshole. :laugh:

:laugh: I try.

[KartRacerBoy]

You lecturing others about posting smart ass remarks is like Obama lecturing others on a lack of leadership and personal responsibility

The difference is that I can enjoy smart ass remarks and don't take them seriosly when they are from people I respect.

[red states rule]

The difference is that I can enjoy smart ass remarks and don't take them seriosly when they are from people I respect.

Then you do not enjoy many of them that's for sure