Cutting entitlements?

[J.T]

How's 87.5% of your pay for the rest of you life upon retirement measure up to anything teachers are seeing? 2.7 Trillion in liabilities by 2034...

So let's start cutting...

[Missileman]

How's 87.5% of your pay for the rest of you life upon retirement measure up to anything teachers are seeing? 2.7 Trillion in liabilities by 2034...

So let's start cutting...



The state of PA has the best retirement package for teachers. If you have 30 years you will get approximately 87.5% of your salary for the rest of your life.


Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Teachers'_Retirement_System_of_the_State_of_Illino is#ixzz1ViFLqoE0


You really should do a little research to keep yourself from looking like an ass. The military retirement plan you're whining about is for 35 years of service, some teachers get it for 30. In addition, those teachers aren't routinely subjected to exposures to hazardous substances which lead to life shortening diseases, they don't have to be separated from their families and friends for months on end totalling years during a career, AND teachers are paid a lot more money than your average GI over the course of their career.

IOW, you can shut the fuck up about military benefits.

[J.T]

Thanks, MM, i was waiting for that ;)

So we've already established that these sorts of plans are unsustainable and unreasonable. What's good for the goose is good for the army :thumb:


, those teachers aren't routinely subjected to exposures to hazardous substances
And? It's still a rather generous plan and they chose that field, oft with the entitlements being a factor in that decision. They don't get to cry about it now.

So do you want fiscal discipline or not? The military itself advises getting rid of these idiotic plans in favour of something similar to a 401-k

[Missileman]

Thanks, MM, i was waiting for that ;)

So we've already established that these sorts of plans are unsustainable and unreasonable. What's good for the goose is good for the army :thumb:

And? It's still a rather generous plan and they chose that field, oft with the entitlements being a factor in that decision. They don't get to cry about it now.

So do you want fiscal discipline or not? The military itself advises getting rid of these idiotic plans in favour of something similar to a 401-k

As soon as they adjust the military pay so that a serviceman makes the same amount as a teacher, get back to me.

[J.T]

As soon as they adjust the military pay so that a serviceman makes the same amount as a teacher, get back to me.

Are you factoring room, board, medical care, and traveling expenses?

Perhaps you could link to the math on that?

[Missileman]

Are you factoring room, board, medical care, and traveling expenses?

Perhaps you could link to the math on that?

You REALLY don't want to compare military healthcare to teacher's. Take NJ for example, from the day they were hired until the day they died, NJ teachers got coverage worth $25K a year, with no premiums, no co-pays. The military gets to pay for their TRICARE, and while it's affordable, if you get referred to a downtown doctor there are co-pays involved.

Housing and meals allowances are added into pay and the military is taxed on it. As for traveling expenses, a free ride on a military transport to your next assignment isn't really a benefit that translates into anything a teacher receives.

[gabosaurus]

Why would anyone single out one profession for blame on entitlements?
I think entitlements should be 100 percent protected, whatever it costs. There are millions of people who have been paying out of their paychecks for decades in the belief that they would be taken care of when they retire. Which in many cases is now 65 or 70.
My mom was a teacher for 25 years. A fair sum was deducted from each of her paychecks for social security and various pension items. That money went someplace and should be accounted for.
If one profession or work area has its entitlements cut, then ALL professions should be equally cut. Including the military. No one should be declared special.

[ConHog]

I thought this thread was going to be about entitlements which actually DO need to be cut. But I should have realized that JT is only concerned about cutting earned benefits.

[J.T]

earned benefits.So you oppose cutting teachers' benefits?

[fj1200]

Why would anyone single out one profession for blame on entitlements?
I think entitlements should be 100 percent protected, whatever it costs. There are millions of people who have been paying out of their paychecks for decades in the belief that they would be taken care of when they retire. Which in many cases is now 65 or 70.
My mom was a teacher for 25 years. A fair sum was deducted from each of her paychecks for social security and various pension items. That money went someplace and should be accounted for.
If one profession or work area has its entitlements cut, then ALL professions should be equally cut. Including the military. No one should be declared special.

That's rather shortsighted. Should we reward retired people who voted for the politicians who repeatedly spent their contributions so that there is no trust fund?

[Kathianne]

That's rather shortsighted. Should we reward retired people who voted for the politicians who repeatedly spent their contributions so that there is no trust fund?

There are quite a few states, IL being one, where teachers do not pay or collect social security, even as 'survivor benefits.' Of course if they had a SSI covered job prior or after teaching career, they would collect what they had paid.

[fj1200]

^Granted, I was more referring to Social Security, I should have been clear.

[Kathianne]

^Granted, I was more referring to Social Security, I should have been clear.

Actually, i screwed up. I meant to reply to Gabby's post regarding her mom. In IL public school teachers are required to be in Teachers Retirement System. Quite a few states have equivalent systems. Truth is, they've been handled very much like SSI in that the reserves were used up and now they face huge problems. The difference is though, states are not federal and one group is not likely to be bailed.

The mess with incompetence on so many fronts is coming home now. BTW, same issues confront state 'promised' benefits to many more workers.

[ConHog]

So you oppose cutting teachers' benefits?

In general? Yes, in practice? No of course there are places where teachers make ridiculous salaries and have ridiculous benefits, and they SHOULD be dealt with.

[gabosaurus]

In general? Yes, in practice? No of course there are places where teachers make ridiculous salaries and have ridiculous benefits, and they SHOULD be dealt with.

Please tell us where this is. I would like to know.

[ConHog]

Please tell us where this is. I would like to know.

We can't have a real discussion about the matter if you can't be honest and admit that there most definitely is a problem. Look no further than NYC for example where teachers are making six figure incomes. That's ridiculous.

[Kathianne]

Please tell us where this is. I would like to know.

Salaries in my district are not bad and you'll find that the benefits are equal to about 1/4 more of salaries:

http://www.teachersalaryinfo.com/illinois/teacher-salary-in-glenbard-township-high-school-district-87/

While only the top 10% of secondary teachers are over or at the cusp of 100k, that's a pretty high number.

[ConHog]

Salaries in my district are not bad and you'll find that the benefits are equal to about 1/4 more of salaries:

http://www.teachersalaryinfo.com/illinois/teacher-salary-in-glenbard-township-high-school-district-87/

While only the top 10% of secondary teachers are over or at the cusp of 100k, that's a pretty high number.

The average teacher's salary in Arkansas is 130% of the average overall salary in Arkansas. That doesn't include benefits.

[Kathianne]

The average teacher's salary in Arkansas is 130% of the average overall salary in Arkansas. That doesn't include benefits.

That may well be. What I think needs to be looked at though, what is the percentage of college educated in Arkansas?

Mine. Note, my school district is different than my city. Just the location of my subdivision were put in this district at the time it was built in the '70's:

For population 25 years and over in Glen Ellyn:

High school or higher: 94.5%
Bachelor's degree or higher: 58.8%
Graduate or professional degree: 22.6%
Unemployed: 2.1%
Mean travel time to work (commute): 30.6 minutes



Read more: http://www.city-data.com/city/Glen-Ellyn-Illinois.html#ixzz1VnvO3WaO

Then there are salaries and property values, (which is what funds the school districts):

Estimated median household income in 2009: $86,390 (it was $74,846 in 2000)

<tbody>
Glen Ellyn:
$86,390


Illinois:
$53,966

</tbody>

Estimated per capita income in 2009: $47,025

Glen Ellyn village income, earnings, and wages data (http://www.city-data.com/income/income-Glen-Ellyn-Illinois.html)

Estimated median house or condo value in 2009: $422,871 (it was $253,900 in 2000)
<tbody>
Glen Ellyn:
$422,871


Illinois:
$202,200

</tbody>

Mean prices in 2009: All housing units: $503,020; Detached houses: $563,096; Townhouses or other attached units: $358,044; In 3-to-4-unit structures: $276,588; In 5-or-more-unit structures: $222,044

Median gross rent in 2009: $820.

Read more: http://www.city-data.com/city/Glen-Ellyn-Illinois.html#ixzz1VnvbeGOJ

[gabosaurus]

Teaching is a highly skilled profession. All instructors have at least a bachelor's degree. Many of those in the higher pay brackets have master's degrees. Or they have 10 or more years of continuous service.
Teachers deserve every penny they earn and more. Someone mentioned the high salaries in NYC schools. Has anyone ever been to a NYC public school? Some are a worse war zone than Iraq. Except the students are armed and the teachers are not.
If you want to earn what a teacher does, go get a teaching degree. Most urban districts are begging for teachers. They will be glad to pay you a high salary, benefits and a nice pension.

Why single out teachers? I can't think of a single profession that deserves their compensation more. Who else has to depend on the success of often irresponsible kids to make their living?

[ConHog]

Teaching is a highly skilled profession. All instructors have at least a bachelor's degree. Many of those in the higher pay brackets have master's degrees. Or they have 10 or more years of continuous service.
Teachers deserve every penny they earn and more. Someone mentioned the high salaries in NYC schools. Has anyone ever been to a NYC public school? Some are a worse war zone than Iraq. Except the students are armed and the teachers are not.
If you want to earn what a teacher does, go get a teaching degree. Most urban districts are begging for teachers. They will be glad to pay you a high salary, benefits and a nice pension.

Why single out teachers? I can't think of a single profession that deserves their compensation more. Who else has to depend on the success of often irresponsible kids to make their living?

You are obviously a teacher.

Teachers DO deserve to be fairly compensated for their skills. However, let's be realistic. Teachers work great hours, have plenty of breaks through a 9 month work year, have the summer off, and many other benefits.

As for all the negatives you mentioned. I can think of numerous professions which are FAR more dangerous which don't pay as well as teaching.

Plus a simple fact is teachers have earned their own bad rap with the way they themselves have behaved over the last say 10 years.

[Kathianne]

Teaching is a highly skilled profession. All instructors have at least a bachelor's degree. Many of those in the higher pay brackets have master's degrees. Or they have 10 or more years of continuous service.
Teachers deserve every penny they earn and more. Someone mentioned the high salaries in NYC schools. Has anyone ever been to a NYC public school? Some are a worse war zone than Iraq. Except the students are armed and the teachers are not.
If you want to earn what a teacher does, go get a teaching degree. Most urban districts are begging for teachers. They will be glad to pay you a high salary, benefits and a nice pension.

Why single out teachers? I can't think of a single profession that deserves their compensation more. Who else has to depend on the success of often irresponsible kids to make their living?

It's not just teachers. The public that supplies those salaries have taken serious hits in the past 4 years. In many cases, they've seen the value of their homes fall 40% or more. Yet, property taxes have not fallen, not a cent.

I think there are some areas in the country where teacher salaries may still be too low, but not nearly as many as your statement implies, "Teachers deserve every penny they earn and more." In any economy it would be true for some, false for others. Many teachers aren't worth what they're paid, indeed should not be allowed in a classroom.

I'm certain there are war-zone type schools in NYC, Chicago, Detroit, LA, etc. Then again, in each of those there are also primo schools where gifted/talented kids are taught. Should those teachers not receive what the war zone teachers get? No, they are like their students, the best of the best. Now what about those in the war zones? Are they the 'best'? Some are, most aren't. Some shouldn't be teaching, but no one is lining up to take their places, if the schools could rid themselves of such.

Gabby you do a disservice when you make blanket statements about what teachers are, should, and have been paid. On the other hand, to characterize all ills of young people, including academic performance only on teachers is equally simplistic and wrong. Conhog, the idea that because teachers are in a poor area, making more than the average person, doesn't make sense either. I saw you never responded to my use of local school and demographics. Yes, teachers here make considerably more the state and national average. However, so is the housing values, income levels, and as you should have noticed, the education attainment level of population. Over 50% have BA; over 20% post grad degrees.

Nothing is as simplistic as those on left or right often wish to present to make their points.

[ConHog]

It's not just teachers. The public that supplies those salaries have taken serious hits in the past 4 years. In many cases, they've seen the value of their homes fall 40% or more. Yet, property taxes have not fallen, not a cent.

I think there are some areas in the country where teacher salaries may still be too low, but not nearly as many as your statement implies, "Teachers deserve every penny they earn and more." In any economy it would be true for some, false for others. Many teachers aren't worth what they're paid, indeed should not be allowed in a classroom.

I'm certain there are war-zone type schools in NYC, Chicago, Detroit, LA, etc. Then again, in each of those there are also primo schools where gifted/talented kids are taught. Should those teachers not receive what the war zone teachers get? No, they are like their students, the best of the best. Now what about those in the war zones? Are they the 'best'? Some are, most aren't. Some shouldn't be teaching, but no one is lining up to take their places, if the schools could rid themselves of such.

Gabby you do a disservice when you make blanket statements about what teachers are, should, and have been paid. On the other hand, to characterize all ills of young people, including academic performance only on teachers is equally simplistic and wrong. Conhog, the idea that because teachers are in a poor area, making more than the average person, doesn't make sense either. I saw you never responded to my use of local school and demographics. Yes, teachers here make considerably more the state and national average. However, so is the housing values, income levels, and as you should have noticed, the education attainment level of population. Over 50% have BA; over 20% post grad degrees.

Nothing is as simplistic as those on left or right often wish to present to make their points.



I am not looking at this as a left or right issue. I am looking at it as a school board member does. Our budget is finite, yet teachers want more , more , more. No matter what else is going on , they want more. I've been on a school board for just over 12 years. I can count on ONE hand the times a teacher has came to a school board meeting for anything other than wanting something for themselves.

I have seen time after time when teachers have protested the firing of even the most useless of teachers, I have witnessed the flat out screaming bloody murder anytime some semblance of performance standards for teachers. I can not think of another profession that once you have the job short of killing someone you almost can't be fired. Can you?

What other profession has a 3 months hiatus , but pays at a full year's salary? Plus holidays during those 9 (almost 10) months?

No, I have no sympathy for teachers.

[Kathianne]

I am not looking at this as a left or right issue. I am looking at it as a school board member does. Our budget is finite, yet teachers want more , more , more. No matter what else is going on , they want more. I've been on a school board for just over 12 years. I can count on ONE hand the times a teacher has came to a school board meeting for anything other than wanting something for themselves.

I have seen time after time when teachers have protested the firing of even the most useless of teachers, I have witnessed the flat out screaming bloody murder anytime some semblance of performance standards for teachers. I can not think of another profession that once you have the job short of killing someone you almost can't be fired. Can you?

What other profession has a 3 months hiatus , but pays at a full year's salary? Plus holidays during those 9 (almost 10) months?



No, I have no sympathy for teachers.

Here's some basic demographics for Arkansas as a whole, your local community may be higher or lower, it's easy enough to find out:

http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/05000.html


<tbody>
Median value of owner-occupied housing units, 2005-2009
$97,200
$185,400

</tbody>


<tbody>
Per capita money income in past 12 months (2009 dollars) 2005-2009

$20,977
$27,041

</tbody>


<tbody>
Median household income, 2009
$37,888
$50,221


</tbody>

So your average teacher is making about $45k a year? Does that seem excessive to you? I mean if they suck, any amount is too much, but if a decent teacher? Even with all the time off, not out of line, unless your cost-of-living is way below the national average?

As I said before, some of the problem for your area is likely education level of the population, thus lower income.

While our teachers average over $56k, it's just slightly ahead of the per capita income in our area. However, the majority of residents have as much or more education than the teachers.

Rural areas and inner cities face the most problems regarding education and costs, for much the same reasons: property value funding, lower education attainment of parents, greater number of children below poverty line.

My area isn't 'super rich', until recently though children in poverty were under 1% of total population. Less than 8 years ago, only 2% qualified for the lunch program. It's more the absence of poverty, than high incomes.

I find it hard to believe that in 12 years on school board you've had no teachers or requests of teachers for classroom technology, updated texts, field trips, improvements/purchases for video, library, computer labs, science labs, etc. Either you have really bad teachers or you aren't getting or giving a true picture here.

[ConHog]

Here's some basic demographics for Arkansas as a whole, your local community may be higher or lower, it's easy enough to find out:

http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/05000.html


<tbody>
Median value of owner-occupied housing units, 2005-2009
$97,200
$185,400

</tbody>


<tbody>
Per capita money income in past 12 months (2009 dollars) 2005-2009

$20,977
$27,041

</tbody>


<tbody>
Median household income, 2009
$37,888
$50,221


</tbody>

So your average teacher is making about $45k a year? Does that seem excessive to you? I mean if they suck, any amount is too much, but if a decent teacher? Even with all the time off, not out of line, unless your cost-of-living is way below the national average?

As I said before, some of the problem for your area is likely education level of the population, thus lower income.

While our teachers average over $56k, it's just slightly ahead of the per capita income in our area. However, the majority of residents have as much or more education than the teachers.

Rural areas and inner cities face the most problems regarding education and costs, for much the same reasons: property value funding, lower education attainment of parents, greater number of children below poverty line.

My area isn't 'super rich', until recently though children in poverty were under 1% of total population. Less than 8 years ago, only 2% qualified for the lunch program. It's more the absence of poverty, than high incomes.

I find it hard to believe that in 12 years on school board you've had no teachers or requests of teachers for classroom technology, updated texts, field trips, improvements/purchases for video, library, computer labs, science labs, etc. Either you have really bad teachers or you aren't getting or giving a true picture here.


Yes, $45K is a DAMN good living around here. It's not super rich of course, but a person can be pretty comfortable around here. I sincerely have no sympathy for teachers who claim otherwise.

Oh, I didn't say that we didn't have certain requests. I said teachers didn't attend school board meetings unless they wanted more for themselves. Our Superintendent handles most of the things you mentioned without them reaching the school board. Well up to a point of course.

And to be honest, we do NOT have bad teachers, we have very good teachers, for the most part; the problem is we are stuck with the bad ones. and the good ones would absolutely scream to high hell if we tried to fire the bad ones. Been there, done that.

[gabosaurus]

I am not looking at this as a left or right issue. I am looking at it as a school board member does. Our budget is finite, yet teachers want more , more , more. No matter what else is going on , they want more. I've been on a school board for just over 12 years. I can count on ONE hand the times a teacher has came to a school board meeting for anything other than wanting something for themselves.

I have seen time after time when teachers have protested the firing of even the most useless of teachers, I have witnessed the flat out screaming bloody murder anytime some semblance of performance standards for teachers. I can not think of another profession that once you have the job short of killing someone you almost can't be fired. Can you?

What other profession has a 3 months hiatus , but pays at a full year's salary? Plus holidays during those 9 (almost 10) months?

No, I have no sympathy for teachers.

Who do you have sympathy for? Lawyers? Tow truck drivers? People of Wal Mart?
And where do you live that teachers behave so badly? Certainly not in my district. Jobs have been cut. Salaries haven't risen significantly for years.
I don't believe I am oversimplifying things at all. I make blanket statements because that is all most people want to listen to.

The district I live in, Huntington Beach Public Schools, is fairly affluent. There is a lot of competition for teaching jobs. The reason my husband and I moved here is because the public schools are outstanding. Here are the average salaries for teachers.

The average teacher salary in Huntington Beach Union High School District is $58,563.
Grade Level Average 10th percentile 25th percentile Median 75th percentile 90th percentile
Pre-school $30,456 $20,871 $23,381 $28,490 $35,943 $42,437
Kindergarten $56,974 $30,512 $37,671 $53,136 $72,215 $91,646
Elementary $65,077 $33,711 $43,133 $66,052 $83,334 $98,943
Middle school $67,833 $37,101 $52,175 $68,544 $85,107 $99,045
High school $72,476 $40,886 $57,003 $73,835 $89,707 $103,277


<tbody>














































</tbody>

How is this out of line with other professional occupations?

http://www.teachersalaryinfo.com/california/teacher-salary-in-huntington-beach-union-high-school-district/

*** You can check out the teacher salaries for your own district by using this web site and plugging in where you live.


<tbody>














































</tbody>

[Kathianne]

Yes, $45K is a DAMN good living around here. It's not super rich of course, but a person can be pretty comfortable around here. I sincerely have no sympathy for teachers who claim otherwise.

Oh, I didn't say that we didn't have certain requests. I said teachers didn't attend school board meetings unless they wanted more for themselves. Our Superintendent handles most of the things you mentioned without them reaching the school board. Well up to a point of course.

And to be honest, we do NOT have bad teachers, we have very good teachers, for the most part; the problem is we are stuck with the bad ones. and the good ones would absolutely scream to high hell if we tried to fire the bad ones. Been there, done that.

All public schools have the problem with getting rid of the bad apples, just a fact. I'm not sure what you are complaining about though, seems like the teachers are being paid enough to attract those you need, mostly of good ability. No one said that for your area $45k may not be a fair salary. I've no doubt that teachers would like more, but in these times they don't expect that to change. Would you like a 6% raise next year? I bet you would. Do you expect to get it? Do you deserve it?

[Kathianne]

Who do you have sympathy for? Lawyers? Tow truck drivers? People of Wal Mart?
And where do you live that teachers behave so badly? Certainly not in my district. Jobs have been cut. Salaries haven't risen significantly for years.
I don't believe I am oversimplifying things at all. I make blanket statements because that is all most people want to listen to.

The district I live in, Huntington Beach Public Schools, is fairly affluent. There is a lot of competition for teaching jobs. The reason my husband and I moved here is because the public schools are outstanding. Here are the average salaries for teachers.

The average teacher salary in Huntington Beach Union High School District is $58,563.
Grade Level Average 10th percentile 25th percentile Median 75th percentile 90th percentile
Pre-school $30,456 $20,871 $23,381 $28,490 $35,943 $42,437
Kindergarten $56,974 $30,512 $37,671 $53,136 $72,215 $91,646
Elementary $65,077 $33,711 $43,133 $66,052 $83,334 $98,943
Middle school $67,833 $37,101 $52,175 $68,544 $85,107 $99,045
High school $72,476 $40,886 $57,003 $73,835 $89,707 $103,277


<tbody>














































</tbody>


How is this out of line with other professional occupations?

http://www.teachersalaryinfo.com/california/teacher-salary-in-huntington-beach-union-high-school-district/

*** You can check out the teacher salaries for your own district by using this web site and plugging in where you live.


<tbody>














































</tbody>


Gabby we seem to live in similar areas. I don't know the last time our teachers went for a new contract, I know that about 10 years ago they went on strike for what they now have and that was a 6 year contract. At the time the salaries were very high, highest in IL. Not anymore. With that said, the schools haven't put forward referendums and salaries haven't gone up, other than for the superintendent and people have complained about his salary, with perks over $500k. Truth is, they make a very good salary, they know it and are doing everything they can to keep the schools in position not to have layoffs and keep the scores high. There have been no cutbacks in sports or other extra curricular activities, including teacher's extra duty pay. Activity fees have stayed constant, since more and more students are unable to participate even with that. The boosters club has taken to raising funds to pay for those students whose families are unable.

Our area certainly has been hit by the economy, but not to the degree that less affluent areas have been. People here that have been 'lucky' are for the most part more than willing to help out those in trouble, especially the children and older students. Rural and inner cities haven't the means to do the same for the most part.

[fj1200]

Teaching is a highly skilled profession. All instructors have at least a bachelor's degree. Many of those in the higher pay brackets have master's degrees. Or they have 10 or more years of continuous service.
Teachers deserve every penny they earn and more. Someone mentioned the high salaries in NYC schools. Has anyone ever been to a NYC public school? Some are a worse war zone than Iraq. Except the students are armed and the teachers are not.
If you want to earn what a teacher does, go get a teaching degree. Most urban districts are begging for teachers. They will be glad to pay you a high salary, benefits and a nice pension.

Why single out teachers? I can't think of a single profession that deserves their compensation more. Who else has to depend on the success of often irresponsible kids to make their living?

The teachers and principals in Atlanta caught for cheating don't deserve it, the teachers and principals who are more concerned with themselves don't deserve it, the teachers and principals who should have been fired except for the union don't deserve it. The teachers in my county in GA that consistently underperforms don't deserve it. Maybe if those who don't deserve it were held more accountable then those who do deserve it would get paid appropriately.

Also, what are the hiring requirements for teachers in those districts? Do they reject applicants who don't meet the specific set of requirements but would nonetheless make good teachers?


I make blanket statements because that is all most people want to listen to.

:rolleyes:

[Gunny]

You really should do a little research to keep yourself from looking like an ass. The military retirement plan you're whining about is for 35 years of service, some teachers get it for 30. In addition, those teachers aren't routinely subjected to exposures to hazardous substances which lead to life shortening diseases, they don't have to be separated from their families and friends for months on end totalling years during a career, AND teachers are paid a lot more money than your average GI over the course of their career. IOW, you can shut the fuck up about military benefits. Not to mention that with few exceptions, by law, military service is max'd at 30 years. That's a max of 75% of your base pay IF you joined prior to Sep 80. It's even less if you joined after that date. IIRC, you get about 35% at 20 and 50% at 30.

[ConHog]

All public schools have the problem with getting rid of the bad apples, just a fact. I'm not sure what you are complaining about though, seems like the teachers are being paid enough to attract those you need, mostly of good ability. No one said that for your area $45k may not be a fair salary. I've no doubt that teachers would like more, but in these times they don't expect that to change. Would you like a 6% raise next year? I bet you would. Do you expect to get it? Do you deserve it?

You seem to be confusing discussing with complaining. I am discussing. I don't begrudge teachers making a decent salary. I do however think that in many cases they whine unnecessarily. Now around here we have weak unions so it's not so bad, but in areas where the unions are power only a fool would deny that there is a problem with teacher salaries.

[Kathianne]

You seem to be confusing discussing with complaining. I am discussing. I don't begrudge teachers making a decent salary. I do however think that in many cases they whine unnecessarily. Now around here we have weak unions so it's not so bad, but in areas where the unions are power only a fool would deny that there is a problem with teacher salaries.

Honestly? I don't think that you're hearing all that much complaining from me, though I've said ours aren't 'underpaid.' Gabby seems to believe her district isn't paid enough? In the past, not with this economy, school referendums on issues like additions, new schools, swimming pools, air conditioning of district schools, etc., were routinely passed. Funding was usually a special assessment that would last X number of years at so many cents on the dollar of taxes.

Though you noticed what I said about demographics? Even with an average of $56+ a year, it's only slightly ahead of average salary for the city, because the majority of city adults have the same level of education or higher. Granted there are some making more than $500k and there are a smaller number in the 0-10k.

It's the dilemma of funding through property taxes. The more affluent the area, the easier to have enough taxes collected for what is needed or even wanted. In less affluent areas it's tough to pay the teachers a reasonable salary based on education and experience. One selling point though for an area where teachers make significantly more than the average person paying their taxes? Look at average home prices-certainly for anyone making less than $250k, the largest costs most bear.

As Gabby noted, teachers knock down each other trying to get into our schools-thus my problem in finding a position. Most of the kids come from well educated homes, mostly 2 parent. They've gone to very good preschools and few have been in daycare. Most enter school reading or close to it-in kindergarten. Quite a few have traveled extensively. All have had internet access and educational software games since toddllerhood.

The skills needed of the teacher and the set of challenges they face are very different teaching in most areas like mine and those needed in most rural and inner city schools.

[ConHog]

Honestly? I don't think that you're hearing all that much complaining from me, though I've said ours aren't 'underpaid.' Gabby seems to believe her district isn't paid enough? In the past, not with this economy, school referendums on issues like additions, new schools, swimming pools, air conditioning of district schools, etc., were routinely passed. Funding was usually a special assessment that would last X number of years at so many cents on the dollar of taxes.

Though you noticed what I said about demographics? Even with an average of $56+ a year, it's only slightly ahead of average salary for the city, because the majority of city adults have the same level of education or higher. Granted there are some making more than $500k and there are a smaller number in the 0-10k.

It's the dilemma of funding through property taxes. The more affluent the area, the easier to have enough taxes collected for what is needed or even wanted. In less affluent areas it's tough to pay the teachers a reasonable salary based on education and experience. One selling point though for an area where teachers make significantly more than the average person paying their taxes? Look at average home prices-certainly for anyone making less than $250k, the largest costs most bear.

As Gabby noted, teachers knock down each other trying to get into our schools-thus my problem in finding a position. Most of the kids come from well educated homes, mostly 2 parent. They've gone to very good preschools and few have been in daycare. Most enter school reading or close to it-in kindergarten. Quite a few have traveled extensively. All have had internet access and educational software games since toddllerhood.

The skills needed of the teacher and the set of challenges they face are very different teaching in most areas like mine and those needed in most rural and inner city schools.

Sure I acknowledge that. I also admit that our school district is while not affluent,not poor either. We do alright. And our teachers will, mostly, admit that they have a MUCH better working environment than many teachers. We're very rural, everyone knows everyone, we have VERY few problems; and with the addition of an absolute zero tolerance for problem children, our teachers should feel fairly safe.

It seems to me that you advocate hazard pay for teachers in less safe schools. I would not disagree with that idea. I do disagree with those who say that teachers who go into those types of schools should automatically be that extra money. A MUCH better use of resources would be to reward teachers who go into those environments and succeed, not just go into those environments and survive.

The problem is teachers themselves fight this, they want the raises and such for EVERYONE. Luckily as I said our unions are weak in Arkansas and in fact in my particular school district they have been voted out. So we can negotiate directly with the teachers and we have made some headway. Not just on money either. I've got 3 teachers this year who are teaching from home. It's a pilot program for us, if it works great we'll expand, if not we'll drop it; but as of now, these teachers will only be coming to campus 1 day a week. The other 4 they will be teaching their classes via the internet.

As a trade off, these 3 teachers agreed to no pay raise in their new contracts. They agreed that they will be saving roughly a month in a gas what a raise would have amounted to, additionally the school district will be picking up the tab for their internet service since they are using it for teaching.

That's a pretty good gig, $45K a year to teach from home 4 days a week for 9 months?

[Kathianne]

Actually I don't agree with 'hazard pay.' I do think many teacher unions use these schools to point out why these mostly inner city schools should be paid much more than they are. What they then do for the most part is put the newest hires, (usually inexperienced), in worst schools. Most experienced teachers are usually found in the district's best schools with the most academically prepared students.

In fact, I don't think salaries above a certain point make a difference in attracting teachers. Good teachers like any other group of people, find certain factors of more significance. If one wants to help the disadvantaged, they'll apply for inner city or impoverished rural areas. If one likes to try out new methods of instruction, opportunities of integrating technology into classrooms, live in an area similar to where they grew up, want to make high salaries, they choose wealthier suburban or high cost, (not parochial), private schools.

I'm assuming your pilot program is for internet classes? I can't imagine that teachers are having kids come into their homes daily? Some teachers might like that, I wouldn't. I like the interaction with the kids and the ideas I get and give to other teachers. I guess that's my point, different reasons for different choices.

[ConHog]

Actually I don't agree with 'hazard pay.' I do think many teacher unions use these schools to point out why these mostly inner city schools should be paid much more than they are. What they then do for the most part is put the newest hires, (usually inexperienced), in worst schools. Most experienced teachers are usually found in the district's best schools with the most academically prepared students.

In fact, I don't think salaries above a certain point make a difference in attracting teachers. Good teachers like any other group of people, find certain factors of more significance. If one wants to help the disadvantaged, they'll apply for inner city or impoverished rural areas. If one likes to try out new methods of instruction, opportunities of integrating technology into classrooms, live in an area similar to where they grew up, want to make high salaries, they choose wealthier suburban or high cost, (not parochial), private schools.

I'm assuming your pilot program is for internet classes? I can't imagine that teachers are having kids come into their homes daily? Some teachers might like that, I wouldn't. I like the interaction with the kids and the ideas I get and give to other teachers. I guess that's my point, different reasons for different choices.


Oh yes, don't get me wrong, the students are at school, not the teachers' homes.


And yes, I do think there should be a mix. I think there are certain courses that translate well over the internet, and others that don't. I would also oppose doing this before the high school level, as I think the socialization skills children learn at school are as important as the school work itself.

[Missileman]

You seem to be confusing discussing with complaining. I am discussing. I don't begrudge teachers making a decent salary. I do however think that in many cases they whine unnecessarily. Now around here we have weak unions so it's not so bad, but in areas where the unions are power only a fool would deny that there is a problem with teacher salaries.

I don't begrudge decent teachers making a decent salary. One of the biggest problems with our current system is the difficulty in getting rid of those who shouldn't be teaching.

[logroller]

My parents went into education in the sixties, inspired by Kennedy's Best and the Brightest call to service. I never once remember them complaining about their pay, ever. As they neared retirement they talked about it, but not in a negative manner. Far more fresh in my mind is their sharing of those teachers who showed them the intrinsic value of learning, which is the same to paupers and princes alike.