County Ups the Ante in Voucher War

[fj1200]

County Ups the Ante in Voucher War (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111903885604576488472660592718.html)



DENVER—DENVER—In a bold bid to revamp public education, a suburban district south of Denver has begun handing out vouchers that use public money to help its largely affluent residents send their children to private and church-based schools...

...The program is also unique in that the district explicitly promotes the move as a way for it to save money. The district is, in effect, outsourcing some students' education to the private sector for less than it would spend to teach them in public schools...

...Nationally, most voucher programs are run by states. Qualified students receive a voucher that is accepted as full payment at local private schools.

Douglas County does it differently, acting as middleman between state and student—and taking a cut. The state sends the district $6,100 per pupil; the district forwards 75% to each voucher recipient and keeps the rest. Even after administrative costs, the district expects to make what amounts to a profit of $400,000 this year on the 500 students in its pilot program.
That money will be used to "provide services to the students that are left behind in the regular schools," district spokesman Randy Barber said...



I say more power to them even though they aren't just directing it at the poor, choices in education are what is critical and limiting those choices is counterproductive IMO. Some of the opposition seems to be what "they fear," or what "may" happen rather than looking at the totality of the program.

[KartRacerBoy]

Is your quote from Elron Hubbard? :laugh: Lord, I hope not becz the Scientologists don't have schools in your area. :dance:

[fj1200]

No, Elbert Hubbard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elbert_Hubbard). Deceased long before Scientology as far as I can tell.

No comment on the evils of publicly funded creationism?

[KartRacerBoy]

No, Elbert Hubbard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elbert_Hubbard). Deceased long before Scientology as far as I can tell.

No comment on the evils of publicly funded creationism?

Nyet. I've had my fill of much debate this week. Besides this site, we havea house guest, a buddy who is staying with us is a great debater. I've been playing the contrarian. He's a Harvard professor in classical music who got his Phd in a single year (at age 26) after by age 25, he'd had 10 different compositions played by 10 different national symphonies around the world. And he got a perfect score on his SATs way back when. So he's a smart guy and he's wearing me out. His view of Larry Summers as the President of Harvard is vastly entertaining, too (smartest guy in the room syndrom x 10 raised to the power of 10000000000)!

Once he leaves on Monday, I might rip into the attempt to violate the Jeffersonian principle of separation of church/state just fer fun!

[ConHog]

Nyet. I've had my fill of much debate this week. Besides this site, we havea house guest, a buddy who is staying with us is a great debater. I've been playing the contrarian. He's a Harvard professor in classical music who got his Phd in a single year (at age 26) after by age 25, he'd had 10 different compositions played by 10 different national symphonies around the world. And he got a perfect score on his SATs way back when. So he's a smart guy and he's wearing me out. His view of Larry Summers as the President of Harvard is vastly entertaining, too (smartest guy in the room syndrom x 10 raised to the power of 10000000000)!

Once he leaves on Monday, I might rip into the attempt to violate the Jeffersonian principle of separation of church/state just fer fun!

Big deal. By age 25 I had a PHD from Harvard and Yale, took me a week to earn them both. I also scored 20 points higher than perfect on my SATs

[Gaffer]

Nyet. I've had my fill of much debate this week. Besides this site, we havea house guest, a buddy who is staying with us is a great debater. I've been playing the contrarian. He's a Harvard professor in classical music who got his Phd in a single year (at age 26) after by age 25, he'd had 10 different compositions played by 10 different national symphonies around the world. And he got a perfect score on his SATs way back when. So he's a smart guy and he's wearing me out. His view of Larry Summers as the President of Harvard is vastly entertaining, too (smartest guy in the room syndrom x 10 raised to the power of 10000000000)!

Once he leaves on Monday, I might rip into the attempt to violate the Jeffersonian principle of separation of church/state just fer fun!

But where does he rank on the common sense meter?

[Gaffer]

Big deal. By age 25 I had a PHD from Harvard and Yale, took me a week to earn them both. I also scored 20 points higher than perfect on my SATs

:laugh:

It always makes me wonder. How could these guys or gals do that? Colleges are out for your money and your required to take X number of garbage classes in order to get a degree. How does someone earn a degree in a year? Especially when certain classes are not always offered except at certain times.

[ConHog]

:laugh:

It always makes me wonder. How could these guys or gals do that? Colleges are out for your money and your required to take X number of garbage classes in order to get a degree. How does someone earn a degree in a year? Especially when certain classes are not always offered except at certain times.

Well it IS possible with lower degrees.

For example, I have a bachelors degree in history from Georgia Tech. Took me two semesters to get it. How? Simple, I already had a bachelors from The University of Arkansas and when GT got my transcript they gave me credit for every single class and the only requirement I had to meet to get a degree from them was the one that said I had to take 15 hours of history courses from GT. That was no sweat. I actually took three classes each semester for a total of 18 credit hours and have a degree from GT.

As far as graduating high school and graduating from college in one year. I would think earning 168 credit hours would be almost impossible unless you took a ton of college courses in HS and were just freakishly smart and able to CLEP out of a LOT of classes.

[Kathianne]

Well it IS possible with lower degrees.

For example, I have a bachelors degree in history from Georgia Tech. Took me two semesters to get it. How? Simple, I already had a bachelors from The University of Arkansas and when GT got my transcript they gave me credit for every single class and the only requirement I had to meet to get a degree from them was the one that said I had to take 15 hours of history courses from GT. That was no sweat. I actually took three classes each semester for a total of 18 credit hours and have a degree from GT.

As far as graduating high school and graduating from college in one year. I would think earning 168 credit hours would be almost impossible unless you took a ton of college courses in HS and were just freakishly smart and able to CLEP out of a LOT of classes.

Same with my history degree, one year. Of course I also needed to get the teaching creds and student teaching semester, that did take another year. Depending on the university, the program, and the student masters or doctorate can be 1-3 years. In many cases there aren't courses, rather working with a professor adviser on a specific course of study and both written/oral report that must be published. It's rare though that all the research, analysis, and writing could be completed in a year. Have to be uber smart and a research whiz!

[KartRacerBoy]

Big deal. By age 25 I had a PHD from Harvard and Yale, took me a week to earn them both. I also scored 20 points higher than perfect on my SATs

The difference is that Josh actually accomplished what I've said, AND has a wonderful mind that exhibits logic. He is subject to the politically correct thing, but if pushed on it, in a logical fashion, is able to get beyond preconceptions. You have no such skills.

[KartRacerBoy]

:laugh:

It always makes me wonder. How could these guys or gals do that? Colleges are out for your money and your required to take X number of garbage classes in order to get a degree. How does someone earn a degree in a year? Especially when certain classes are not always offered except at certain times.

In music, when you actually have a body of accomplishment, after you take the courses (some of which they normally required but waived becz of my friend's actual work as a composer), that is the equivalent of a dissertation. In musical composition, after coursework, you write a composition and that is your dissertation. He had already done that numerous times over and national symphonies (German, Italian, French, Japan, etc) had commissioned him to produce symphonies.

Believer what you want. The guy has his waaaaay liberal biases (he makes me look like an Obama hater/KKK type), but he is brilliant. His degree is from Columbia University and he made $$$ on the degree. No mean feat, IMO> :lol:

[ConHog]

The difference is that Josh actually accomplished what I've said, AND has a wonderful mind that exhibits logic. He is subject to the politically correct thing, but if pushed on it, in a logical fashion, is able to get beyond preconceptions. You have no such skills.

Sir, I have shown NOTHING on this board that indicates that I am not intelligent. The fact is that I obviously am. Any intelligent person could read my posts and deduce that. The ONLY reason you question MY intelligence is because I disagree with you politically, which is both stupid and childish.

I have offered once, and will reiterate; if you wish to let the board decide which of is is the more intelligent, logical debater. Pick a topic (any topic, I'm sure we disagree on just about everything) and challenge me to a one on one debate and we shall find out.

I don't think we even need to discuss which of us is the more accepted member of society. It clearly isn't you.

[ConHog]

In music, when you actually have a body of accomplishment, after you take the courses (some of which they normally required but waived becz of my friend's actual work as a composer), that is the equivalent of a dissertation. In musical composition, after coursework, you write a composition and that is your dissertation. He had already done that numerous times over and national symphonies (German, Italian, French, Japan, etc) had commissioned him to produce symphonies.

Believer what you want. The guy has his waaaaay liberal biases (he makes me look like an Obama hater/KKK type), but he is brilliant. His degree is from Columbia University and he made $$$ on the degree. No mean feat, IMO> :lol:

Does this "friend" live in Canada with your "girlfriend?"

:laugh2:

[KartRacerBoy]

But where does he rank on the common sense meter?

See one of my response above this one but I think higher than you.

[ConHog]

See one of my response above this one but I think higher than you.

Yes you did already answer that. Shame on Gaffer for not realizing that when you said he was a liberal you were indicating that he in fact has no common sense.

[Kathianne]

Nyet. I've had my fill of much debate this week. Besides this site, we havea house guest, a buddy who is staying with us is a great debater. I've been playing the contrarian. He's a Harvard professor in classical music who got his Phd in a single year (at age 26) after by age 25, he'd had 10 different compositions played by 10 different national symphonies around the world. And he got a perfect score on his SATs way back when. So he's a smart guy and he's wearing me out. His view of Larry Summers as the President of Harvard is vastly entertaining, too (smartest guy in the room syndrom x 10 raised to the power of 10000000000)!

Once he leaves on Monday, I might rip into the attempt to violate the Jeffersonian principle of separation of church/state just fer fun!

Ah, not that i care, just like to find what i can find. I cannot find a Josh/Joshua on Harvard Music Faculty, even as visiting. Did find a reference to a book a Joshua Fineberg wrote, then a mention of same on an old Harvard newspaper article. Seems he's at Boston University, did get his doctorate at Columbia and the BU site says that associate professor Fineberg had previously been on Harvard faculty.

So on the off chance this was the same person, went to Wiki and that says he was born in 1969, entered Columbia for Phd in fall of 1977 and finished 2 years later. Lots of awards and citations. Indeed, his book seems to be highly thought of and used by universities.

He certainly sounds extremely gifted, so can't see any reason that anyone would need to embellish his accomplishments.

[ConHog]

Ah, not that i care, just like to find what i can find. I cannot find a Josh/Joshua on Harvard Music Faculty, even as visiting. Did find a reference to a book a Joshua Fineberg wrote, then a mention of same on an old Harvard newspaper article. Seems he's at Boston University, did get his doctorate at Columbia and the BU site says that associate professor Fineberg had previously been on Harvard faculty.

So on the off chance this was the same person, went to Wiki and that says he was born in 1969, entered Columbia for Phd in fall of 1977 and finished 2 years later. Lots of awards and citations. Indeed, his book seems to be highly thought of and used by universities.

He certainly sounds extremely gifted, so can't see any reason that anyone would need to embellish his accomplishments.

Are you implying what I think you are implying? :cool:

[Kathianne]

Are you implying what I think you are implying? :cool:

I'm not implying anything. Just a fact there's no Josh/Joshua on Harvard's Department of music faculty-permanent or visiting.

There is a Joshua Fineberg at BU, who got his doctorate at Columbia and taught at Harvard in the past.

That Joshua though would have been 27 entering Columbia and took 2 years to get his doctorate.

So either it's a different Joshua or I dunno. ;)

[Missileman]

I'm not implying anything. Just a fact there's no Josh/Joshua on Harvard's Department of music faculty-permanent or visiting.

There is a Joshua Fineberg at BU, who got his doctorate at Columbia and taught at Harvard in the past.

That Joshua though would have been 27 entering Columbia and took 2 years to get his doctorate.

So either it's a different Joshua or I dunno. ;)

Um...


Wiki and that says he was born in 1969, entered Columbia for Phd in fall of 1977 and finished 2 years later

If I'm not mistaken, he would have been 7 or 8 entering and got his Phd at 9 or 10.

[ConHog]

Um...



If I'm not mistaken, he would have been 7 or 8 entering and got his Phd at 9 or 10.

2295


This would also explain him being KartBoy's "friend" :laugh2:

[Missileman]

2295


this would also explain him being kartboy's "friend" :laugh2:

lol

[ConHog]

lol

I wondered if anyone would get it. I was disappointed at how small the picture is.

[Kathianne]

Um...



If I'm not mistaken, he would have been 7 or 8 entering and got his Phd at 9 or 10.

Thanks. Typo: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joshua_Fineberg


The following year he was selected by the Ensemble InterContemporain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ensemble_InterContemporain) reading panel for the course in composition and musical technologies. In the Fall of 1997, he returned to the US to pursue a doctorate in musical composition at Columbia University (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbia_University), which he completed in May 1999.

[KartRacerBoy]

I'm not implying anything. Just a fact there's no Josh/Joshua on Harvard's Department of music faculty-permanent or visiting.

There is a Joshua Fineberg at BU, who got his doctorate at Columbia and taught at Harvard in the past.

That Joshua though would have been 27 entering Columbia and took 2 years to get his doctorate.

So either it's a different Joshua or I dunno. ;)

That is him. I should say he TAUGHT at Harvard. Didnt get tenure (1st professorship). Now he is at BU in Boston.

And nice bit of research, btw.

[logroller]

County Ups the Ante in Voucher War (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111903885604576488472660592718.html)




I say more power to them even though they aren't just directing it at the poor, choices in education are what is critical and limiting those choices is counterproductive IMO. Some of the opposition seems to be what "they fear," or what "may" happen rather than looking at the totality of the program.

The article states it is targeted at the "affluent". Though conversely... well anyhow I too applaud them. I think vouchers will increase the quality of education to middle-class families but have little to no change in the rich and poor. I don't think its an end-all solution, but it will solve many of the problems we currently have.The challenge, of course, is keeping such programs well managed, but alas that challenge afflicts most any program. I especially like how they keep 25%. I wonder what the managerial costs(by%) are for education at state and national levels. Many private entities have flourished as contractors in response to the NCLB, and I wonder what effect this will have on private schools in the area. The freedom of the end-user to decide who gets the money is nearly always a good thing, despite any "fears" of what "may" happen. In the end, whatever govt gets involved in results in dramatically raised costs beyond the service itself.

[fj1200]

The article states it is targeted at the "affluent". Though conversely... well anyhow I too applaud them. I think vouchers will increase the quality of education to middle-class families but have little to no change in the rich and poor. I don't think its an end-all solution, but it will solve many of the problems we currently have.The challenge, of course, is keeping such programs well managed, but alas that challenge afflicts most any program. I especially like how they keep 25%. I wonder what the managerial costs(by%) are for education at state and national levels. Many private entities have flourished as contractors in response to the NCLB, and I wonder what effect this will have on private schools in the area. The freedom of the end-user to decide who gets the money is nearly always a good thing, despite any "fears" of what "may" happen. In the end, whatever govt gets involved in results in dramatically raised costs beyond the service itself.

I think that is either bias in the article or just the simple fact that they happen to have an affluent base. I think it's reasonable that they retain some of the funds so that they can ensure quality for those who do remain in the "system." Whether this ends up helping all the students depends on how the local school responds to the competition. I think it's great that they recognize that they can't provide the best option for all students, it's appropriate to have a mix of options that can be tailored to all.