Why does it seem that any criticism of Iraeli govt policy is seen as anti Semitism?

[KartRacerBoy]

I'm an atheist torn about Israel. If any other country had gave citizens rights based on religion, we'd declare them bigots and undemocratic. On the other hand, Jews certainly have a history of persecution (but other groups do also). Certainly the creation of Israel as a sovereign nation has caused various issues, and those issues had lead to several wars. Israel won those wars despite the nation's various missteps. Since I've always enjoyed military history, I've read a lot about those conflicts and have sympathy for the nation and its people.

One thing I don't understand is why criticism of Israeli policy is often met with cries of "anti-Semite!" Especially in the USA. Israel is fallible and certainly can make policy missteps. For example, I disagree with the Israeli policy on settlements, but I don't see how that makes me an anti-Semite. But sometimes merely stating that a national policy of the Israeli govt is perhaps against their interest is greeted with cries of "bigot!" or worse. Is this just the fringe being loud? Or is it AIPAC or a fringe of that group or what?

Methinks it is counterproductive and against their better interests (at least in my view).

What do you think?

[KartRacerBoy]

Really? In THIS forum no one has an opinion on this?

Maybe I need to scream racial slurs to gain attention? I'm surprised this topic doesn't seem to interest anyone.

[Gaffer]

I see it as their right as a country to declare who is a citizen and who isn't. A Jew is not even allowed to set foot in Saudi Arabia. You never see any mention of that.

Most criticism of Israel is Antisemitism. Everything they do is criticized and condemned. There are plenty of other countries doing the same and much worse than Israel and nothing is said.

[J.T]

Did the Jews ever agree to declare citizens of Israel to be Israelis, or are they still defining nationality in terms of one's race?

A Jew crying racism- there is no higher irony.

[Gunny]

I'm an atheist torn about Israel. If any other country had gave citizens rights based on religion, we'd declare them bigots and undemocratic. On the other hand, Jews certainly have a history of persecution (but other groups do also). Certainly the creation of Israel as a sovereign nation has caused various issues, and those issues had lead to several wars. Israel won those wars despite the nation's various missteps. Since I've always enjoyed military history, I've read a lot about those conflicts and have sympathy for the nation and its people.

One thing I don't understand is why criticism of Israeli policy is often met with cries of "anti-Semite!" Especially in the USA. Israel is fallible and certainly can make policy missteps. For example, I disagree with the Israeli policy on settlements, but I don't see how that makes me an anti-Semite. But sometimes merely stating that a national policy of the Israeli govt is perhaps against their interest is greeted with cries of "bigot!" or worse. Is this just the fringe being loud? Or is it AIPAC or a fringe of that group or what?

Methinks it is counterproductive and against their better interests (at least in my view).

What do you think?

It isn't. Babbling anti-Israel/anti-Jewish rhetoric, revisionist history, and/or lies is.

Israel suffers the same fate the US does. They are and we were, winners. Progressives and commie leftists can't stand winners. As each generation progresses and the truth, and the facts as to how and why Israel got to be what it is get more and more lost in hypocrisy, lies and revisionist history, Israel went from victim struggling to survive against all odds to big, bad meanies propped up by the US simply because they won/win.

What I think is your argument is disingenuous. Whitewashing the actions of the Arab states in the past, and now the so-called Pali's and their know terrorist organization government while painting those tht defend Israel defending itself as "the fringe being loud" doesn't get it here.

The same question can be asked the other way around. Is it just "the fringe being loud" that ignore history, fact, a government that IS a terrorist organization, a "people" called "Palestinians" that actually are just Arabs like any other, and/or downplay the fact is the so-called Palestinians and/or the terrorists they elected to represent them as their government are the aggressors?

Methinks that's counterproductive to the truth and the facts.

[KartRacerBoy]

I see it as their right as a country to declare who is a citizen and who isn't. A Jew is not even allowed to set foot in Saudi Arabia. You never see any mention of that.

Most criticism of Israel is Antisemitism. Everything they do is criticized and condemned. There are plenty of other countries doing the same and much worse than Israel and nothing is said.

I agree that many critics of Israeli policy are anti semetic but certainly not all. I think a lot of critics of Israeli national policies (in the USA in particular) have Israel's best interests at heart, whether they agree with the Israeli govt or not. But the Jew hater label gets raised pretty fast, even when it's jewish groups leveling the criticism.

I think it hurts honest debate and might hurt Israel's interests in the long run.

[fj1200]

Really?

Is there a specific example?

[Gunny]

I agree that many critics of Israeli policy are anti semetic but certainly not all. I think a lot of critics of Israeli national policies (in the USA in particular) have Israel's best interests at heart, whether they agree with the Israeli govt or not. But the Jew hater label gets raised pretty fast, even when it's jewish groups leveling the criticism.

I think it hurts honest debate and might hurt Israel's interests in the long run.

Israel's best interests at heart? You mean the same progressive wannabe intellectuals want Israel to start destroying itself as the former have been hard at work doing here so they can be just like us? Just looking for some clarification here.

[KartRacerBoy]

Israel's best interests at heart? You mean the same progressive wannabe intellectuals want Israel to start destroying itself as the former have been hard at work doing here so they can be just like us? Just looking for some clarification here.

I mean anybody. Is an Israli jew who criticizes settlement policy anti-semetic? Is an American jew who does the same anti-semetic? Is an American christian raising the same question anti-semetic? Or a muslim?

And I hate to inform you Gunny but just becz criticism comes from a group you apparently despise, it does not mean that the criticism is wrong. Killing the messanger is generally stupid as a policy, although it often seems to work in politics.

It seems to me the label is often used just to shut up legitimate debate.

[KartRacerBoy]

Is there a specific example?

Sure. Search for AIPAC's claims that American Jews who think Israel's settlement policy hurts Israeli security is if not anti-Semetic, it is at least anti-Israel and treasonous.

Or in other words, "bump."

[Thunderknuckles]

You usually have to look at the full context of the criticism to determine if it's antisemitic.
The litmus test for me is usually if the criticism involves charges of war crimes, use of the term "Zionists", and/or a demand for Palestinian right of return.

It's not a full proof test but will expose most criticism as nothing more than a desire for the state of Israel to disappear.

[KartRacerBoy]

You usually have to look at the full context of the criticism to determine if it's antisemitic.
The litmus test for me is usually if the criticism involves charges of war crimes, use of the term "Zionists", and/or a demand for Palestinian right of return.

It's not a full proof test but will expose most criticism as nothing more than a desire for the state of Israel to disappear.

I'll have to search for the last example I saw. I shouldn't broaden this out to all criticism. I should focus on AIPAC, I think there is valid criticism ot be given against the Israeli govt on things like settlement policy on the West Bank and Jeruseleum. There are good, principled reasons to believe Israel's policies hurt their own prospect for a safe existence, IMO. But when Israelis or AIPAC call American Jews treasonous for espousing them, I think that's way over the top. And woe to you if you agree with said policies and are not a jewish person yourself.

[J.T]

The litmus test for me is usually if the criticism involves charges of war crimes, use of the term "Zionists"
Wait, so denouncing Zionism makes one an antisemite? :laugh:

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/

[ConHog]

I'm an atheist torn about Israel. If any other country had gave citizens rights based on religion, we'd declare them bigots and undemocratic. On the other hand, Jews certainly have a history of persecution (but other groups do also). Certainly the creation of Israel as a sovereign nation has caused various issues, and those issues had lead to several wars. Israel won those wars despite the nation's various missteps. Since I've always enjoyed military history, I've read a lot about those conflicts and have sympathy for the nation and its people.

One thing I don't understand is why criticism of Israeli policy is often met with cries of "anti-Semite!" Especially in the USA. Israel is fallible and certainly can make policy missteps. For example, I disagree with the Israeli policy on settlements, but I don't see how that makes me an anti-Semite. But sometimes merely stating that a national policy of the Israeli govt is perhaps against their interest is greeted with cries of "bigot!" or worse. Is this just the fringe being loud? Or is it AIPAC or a fringe of that group or what?

Methinks it is counterproductive and against their better interests (at least in my view).

What do you think?


For the exact same reason that anyone who wishes homosexuals would just keep their shit to themselves is labeled a homophobe. Because people like simple labels.

[Thunderknuckles]

Wait, so denouncing Zionism makes one an antisemite? :laugh:

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/
Like I said, look at the criticism in full context.
On a similar note, read my post in it's full context rather than pointing to a partial sentence and throwing down the "gotcha" response.

[KartRacerBoy]

For the exact same reason that anyone who wishes homosexuals would just keep their shit to themselves is labeled a homophobe. Because people like simple labels.

Fuck you, ConHog, for the "touche." :laugh:

But I'm not sure you're right in this instance.

[ConHog]

Fuck you, ConHog, for the "touche." :laugh:

But I'm not sure you're right in this instance.

*snickers*

I think I AM right, and my example just proves that it isn't one side or the other , but both that do it. Look at how some people act about Obama. Say one thing about him and BAM you're labeled as a racist. People just like to pigeonhole other people.

[Gunny]

I mean anybody. Is an Israli jew who criticizes settlement policy anti-semetic? Is an American jew who does the same anti-semetic? Is an American christian raising the same question anti-semetic? Or a muslim?

And I hate to inform you Gunny but just becz criticism comes from a group you apparently despise, it does not mean that the criticism is wrong. Killing the messanger is generally stupid as a policy, although it often seems to work in politics.

It seems to me the label is often used just to shut up legitimate debate.

Why play games with words trying to generalize individual stances? Arabs are semites. The Jews hijacked the word anti-semitic as pertaining solely to Jews and the ignorant fell in line.

How can the term shut up legitimate debate? It only does if some PC weakling allows it to. This would also be a direct reflection of the caliber of person using the term. Is it really worth debating someone who can do nothing but deflect? Seems to happen a lot, whether this topic or any other.

Lastly, I did not state that because the "criticism" comes from a group I allegedly despise it's wrong. I'll claim the criticism is wrong, or anti-semitic if you wish, if it is. I can counter with it doesn't make the criticism right just because you choose to make it against a group you despise.

[DragonStryk72]

You have to look at Israel in context of the territories that surround them. For the ME, Israel is bastion of liberty and forward-thinking. comparative to us, they are a clearly repressed culture that have few religious freedoms.

[Abbey Marie]

Even a cursory knowledge of history reveals that the Jews were an intensely persecuted people. Still would be, if people were given more of a chance. In recent times, it wasn't for nothing that so many Jews changed their surnames when they came here. Of course, there are other groups who have suffered from persecution. But perhaps none so long as the Jews.

Call it what you want, but anti-Semitism is alive and well worldwide. I can't think of any other people whom others want to "push into the Sea" until they are all gone.

[KartRacerBoy]

Even a cursory knowledge of history reveals that the Jews were an intensely persecuted people. Still would be, if people were given more of a chance. In recent times, it wasn't for nothing that so many Jews changed their surnames when they came here. Of course, there are other groups who have suffered from persecution. But perhaps none so long as the Jews.

Call it what you want, but anti-Semitism is alive and well worldwide. I can't think of any other people whom others want to "push into the Sea" until they are all gone.

I know anti-semitism is alive and well, in the middle east and here in the US. I posed this question becz earlier this year, AIPAC charged that American jews were anti-semetic and treasonous if they stated that Israel's settlement policies on the West Bank were morally wrong and created less, not more, security for Israel. Sort of a strange reaction, I thought.

[Abbey Marie]

I know anti-semitism is alive and well, in the middle east and here in the US. I posed this question becz earlier this year, AIPAC charged that American jews were anti-semetic and treasonous if they stated that Israel's settlement policies on the West Bank were morally wrong and created less, not more, security for Israel. Sort of a strange reaction, I thought.

Perhaps AIPAC is just reacting to what I see as that American Jews putting their liberal interests ahead of their religious/cultural/ancestral Jewish ones. I put it down to their ever-decreasing religious devotion, but there are possibly other reasons as well. When was the last time you spoke to an American Jew who had strong religious views? Jewishness has become a culture minus its religious roots, imo.

[KartRacerBoy]

Perhaps AIPAC is just reacting to what I see as that American Jews putting their liberal interests ahead of their religious/cultural/ancestral Jewish ones. I put it down to their ever-decreasing religious devotion, but there are possibly other reasons as well. When was the last time you spoke to an American Jew who had strong religious views? Jewishness has become a culture minus its religious roots, imo.

I happen to agree with the "liberal intersts" as you put it, but I don't see them that way. I see this as an argument over policy and what is good for Israel as a nation. Are you saying that if one is a religiously devoted jew that you always agree with Israel's national policy? Or that if you're religiously devoted so you agree that settlement of the west bank by jews is required somehow? I would think not but I don't see how religious devotion has anything to do with disagreements on Israeli national policy.

[logroller]

I see it as their right as a country to declare who is a citizen and who isn't. A Jew is not even allowed to set foot in Saudi Arabia. You never see any mention of that.

Most criticism of Israel is Antisemitism. Everything they do is criticized and condemned. There are plenty of other countries doing the same and much worse than Israel and nothing is said.

Apparently cheap oil justifies the wrong-doings of the Al Sauds. Access to mineral resources do well to grease the wheels American society. Cheap labor/goods from China round out the list of justifiable inhumanity. Its good for US, so we'll let those things slide! Race nor religion is the issue, that's just a side-show distraction for imperial reign!

[fj1200]

... that's just a side-show distraction for imperial reign!

No. Are we stealing their resources/labor/products or paying them market value?

[logroller]

Even a cursory knowledge of history reveals that the Jews were an intensely persecuted people. Still would be, if people were given more of a chance. In recent times, it wasn't for nothing that so many Jews changed their surnames when they came here. Of course, there are other groups who have suffered from persecution. But perhaps none so long as the Jews.

Call it what you want, but anti-Semitism is alive and well worldwide. I can't think of any other people whom others want to "push into the Sea" until they are all gone.

Is it anti-Semitic to say any people who unequivocally support their own group runs contrary to human interests and it's foolish to align ourselves with those who seek not the furtherance of all mankind, but rather their own people?

[KartRacerBoy]

Is it anti-Semitic to say any people who unequivocally support their own group runs contrary to human interests and it's foolish to align ourselves with those who seek not the furtherance of all mankind, but rather their own people?

I had to sober up after my regular morning drunkfest b4 I could understand this post. That isn't really what I was talking about. fyi.

[logroller]

No. Are we stealing their resources/labor/products or paying them market value?

Which market value is that, the one manipulated by the Saudis upping production levels? There's a long history of collusion between our govt and the Saudi Kingdom, but I guess you didn't say a fair-market value-- so I'll concede that point to you.:clap:

[fj1200]

Which market value is that, the one manipulated by the Saudis upping production levels? There's a long history of collusion between our govt and the Saudi Kingdom, but I guess you didn't say a fair-market value-- so I'll concede that point to you.:clap:

Either the one into which they have freely contracted or the spot price.

[J.T]

nkusa.org