Does God care what you call him? [Archive] - Debate Policy

darin

07-21-2011, 07:31 AM

I was listening to the radio today and heard a guy cite scripture regarding "...I have become all things to all men". The verse from the Bible is:

"To the feeble, I was as one who is feeble, so that they might have salvation: I have been all things to all men, so that some at least might have salvation" << 1 Corinthians 9:22 >>

The context surround the scripture consists of Paul telling the church of Corinth to adapt to one's surroundings, for the sake of helping folks learn about Christ. In the previous verse, Paul states he lives as one apart from the Law of God when he's among those who live without concern of God.

This has me wondering a few things - now, for those who aren't Christians, your thoughts are welcome, however understand I don't want to see folks just stirring shit up. If that happens, you'll be promptly banned from this thread.

Here's what I'm thinking:

If somebody finds "New Age" - or whatever that is - and that faith works positively in their lives - it helps them learn to live a positive, kind, loving and happy life - who is to say that what they have found - even unbeknownst to themselves - is not God himself? Who is to say a tribe worshiping (insert their deity's name) isn't in fact, living to please and worship of the Creator? Who is to say that tribe, or that New Age Hippy isn't honestly living their life according to what we understand of Christ's message of 'just be excellent to each other" (and Party-on, Dudes).

Why do we insist folks take OUR labels for God and use them?

revelarts

07-21-2011, 08:37 AM

I agree with that take on Paul.

Here are some other verses along the lines of your other question to add to our consideration i think.

John 4
19 “Sir,” the woman said, “I can see that you are a prophet. 20 Our ancestors worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem.”

21 “Woman,” Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

25 The woman said, “I know that Messiah” (called Christ) “is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us.”

26 Then Jesus declared, “I, the one speaking to you—I am he.”

John 14:6
6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Leviticus 26:1
Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.

Isaiah 42
5 This is what God the LORD says—
the Creator of the heavens, who stretches them out,
who spreads out the earth with all that springs from it,
who gives breath to its people,
and life to those who walk on it:

6 “I, the LORD, have called you in righteousness; I will take hold of your hand.
I will keep you and will make you to be a covenant for the people and a light for the Gentiles,

7 to open eyes that are blind,
to free captives from prisonand to release from the dungeon those who sit in darkness.

8 “I am the LORD; that is my name!
I will not yield my glory to another or my praise to idols.

Isaiah 45
4 For the sake of Jacob my servant, of Israel my chosen, I summon you by name and bestow on you a title of honor, though you do not acknowledge me.
5 I am the LORD, and there is no other; apart from me there is no God.
I will strengthen you, though you have not acknowledged me,

darin

07-21-2011, 09:03 AM

Thanks! I'm missing the connection between some of those verses and my question; can you help?

revelarts

07-21-2011, 09:31 AM

My honest take on them is this.

John 4
19 “Sir,” the woman said, “I can see that you are a prophet. 20 Our ancestors worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem.”

21 “Woman,” Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

25 The woman said, “I know that Messiah” (called Christ) “is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us.”

26 Then Jesus declared, “I, the one speaking to you—I am he.”

Here Jesus is taking to Samaritan women. many Jews considered them half breeds Jews and their version of Judaism corrupt. Jesus tells her plainly that her faith is incomplete and missing aspects. And that God is not so much concerned about which Temple or spot to worship on anymore but that people who honestly sought God would , (Because to the Change he was about to bring), Worship God with their Spirit from anywhere.

the 2 points here that hit on your comments are that Jesus told her her religion was not quite right. and that He was the source of correct information on how to worship God.

John 14:6
6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

NO ONE comes to the father except though me makes the idea of getting to god anyway you heart leads a bit difficult. However I'd concede that God makes some allowances for people who have not heard and are doing the best with what they know. But those who say they are seeking God and reject Jesus for some alternative , Well it would seem to me that Jesus is saying they Are NOT truly seeking God because Ultimately He's the path all come through. Why seek alternative when you have free access to the source. the woman from Sameria recognized him and followed him immediately once she realized who he was.

Leviticus 26:1
Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.

Isaiah 42
5 This is what God the LORD says—
the Creator of the heavens, who stretches them out,
who spreads out the earth with all that springs from it,
who gives breath to its people,
and life to those who walk on it:

6 “I, the LORD, have called you in righteousness; I will take hold of your hand.
I will keep you and will make you to be a covenant for the people and a light for the Gentiles,

7 to open eyes that are blind,
to free captives from prison and to release from the dungeon those who sit in darkness.

8 “I am the LORD; that is my name!
I will not yield my glory to another or my praise to idols.

the old testament make it clear over an over again that the God who created the heavens and the earth is the 1 and only real God. He has spoken to the whole world but he says the Jews where to be his Preist and example to the earth. Many people had Idols and others beliefs which God, flatly rejected, here though Issiah and elsewhere. The idea of other gods is address by the prophets who repeat that other gods are either unreal and useless or demons.
the 1st commandment is
You shall have no other Gods.

Isaiah 45
4 For the sake of Jacob my servant, of Israel my chosen, I summon you by name and bestow on you a title of honor, though you do not acknowledge me.
5 I am the LORD, and there is no other; apart from me there is no God.
I will strengthen you, though you have not acknowledged me

Jews as representatives (reluctant and unreliable), God the one and only.

Wind Song

07-21-2011, 09:56 AM

Language limits and divides us.

darin

07-21-2011, 10:02 AM

Thanks for those thoughts - I think you might be thinking differently than I.

See, I don't believe God has to use the name 'God' or even 'Jesus' to bring folks close to Him. Even the name 'Jesus' is an English variant of the ethnic, real name of the person of christ. Thus, if using "God" as the ONLY proper name we must use, or even "Jesus" as the ONLY name to which He responds means English folk have had it wrong the whole time.

I'm leaning towards believing Christ/God goes out of their way to make a relationship with him/them as easy as possible; reducing things to the lowest common denominator.

As an example -

I'm driving down a dirt road in Australia's outback, looking for God. God wants me to find him - not just for his benefit - probably quite the opposite - but for MY benefit. So - as I drive for miles I come to a T in the road. Standing along the T is an aboriginal man. I ask him "Which way to God?" He may reply "Great Spirit is to the right!" Now what do I do? I asked him for "God" but he's trying to send me to "Great Spirit". Thus, I turn left. 10 miles later, as I drive through a small creek my car stalls. I get out to look-see under the hood only to to be eaten by a Croc.

Getting to heaven - would I have a case to be 'mad' at God?

"God - why didn't you give me directions??" I may ask.

"Well, dude, it was ME standing there - and I pointed you to the right! You chose left!"

"B-but that wasn't you! That was an 'un-saved' native. And he said the Right took me to the "Great Spirit!"

"Man - does it REALLY matter? I mean, honestly....does it REALLY matter? What's more important...the name one chooses to call me, or the fact one loves their fellow man as themselves, and Me? While that man was young my spirit moved upon him. My spirit taught the man to love his neighbors as if they were brothers. My spirit taught the man kindness, selflessness, discipline of thought. I couldn't give a rat's behind if he used "God" or "Jesus" when he prayed - the point is, he prayed in earnest, seeking a relationship with Me."

See where I'm going? I believe God is vastly BIGGER and capable than the Bible itself, or the glimpses of Him we find in Scripture.

Language limits and divides us.

That statement is wronger than a football bat

revelarts

07-21-2011, 10:08 AM

Language limits and divides us.

Are you using language to say something?
Or is the statement you just made meaningless?

In a foreign country does speaking the native language help you connect with the soul of the country or not?

Thunderknuckles

07-21-2011, 12:47 PM

To address the overall question of "does God care what you call him?" from a Christian standpoint:
In general I would say no, God has many names in many languages and God does not appear to care what the names are as long as you are referring to Him and no other. Thus, when you say:
"If somebody finds "New Age" - or whatever that is - and that faith works positively in their lives - it helps them learn to live a positive, kind, loving and happy life - who is to say that what they have found - even unbeknownst to themselves - is not God himself? Who is to say a tribe worshiping (insert their deity's name) isn't in fact, living to please and worship of the Creator?"

God will have issues with that if you do not acknowledge Him as the Creator and source of your faith- not some general idea of a god or creator. It has to be specifically Him, the God of Abraham. The Bible is pretty clear in this respect.

- keep in in mind this argument is strictly Christian/Biblical in context.

darin

07-21-2011, 12:53 PM

[/I][/B]God will have issues with that if you do not acknowledge Him as the Creator and source of your faith- not some general idea of a god or creator. It has to be specifically Him, the God of Abraham. The Bible is pretty clear in this respect.

- keep in in mind this argument is strictly Christian/Biblical in context.

Is that a constant, stead-fast truth, or is there gray area?

If it's truth, it speaks for terrible consequences for, say, aborted babies, or folks like that. And then, I'd wonder if timing matters. Does God require that acknowledgment before or after death? If it's after, it bodes well for mentally-ill, or retarded folks who are old enough to know right from wrong, but don't have the facilities to understand nuanced requirements from God.

If that argument is the Christian or Biblical point of view, could either or both have it wrong?

Wind Song

07-21-2011, 01:06 PM

Lot's of people discuss "God". It's mostly talk. The word, "God" has become empty of meaning throughout thousands of years of misuse. People who have never even glimpsed the realm of the sacred, the infinite vastness behind that word, use it with great conviction, as if they knew what they are talking about.

BoogyMan

07-21-2011, 01:24 PM

Paul clearly speaks earlier in the chapter that he taught the gospel of Christ (vs 16), so anything he says is bound by that fact. When he taught the gentiles he spoke as if a gentile, when he taught Jews, he spoke as a Jew. The whole of his commentary was taking nothing away from God or the Gospel. There is nothing that can be found in the New Testament to justify going outside of the authority of Christ in regard to the work and worship of Christianity.

I was listening to the radio today and heard a guy cite scripture regarding "...I have become all things to all men". The verse from the Bible is:

"To the feeble, I was as one who is feeble, so that they might have salvation: I have been all things to all men, so that some at least might have salvation" << 1 Corinthians 9:22 >>

The context surround the scripture consists of Paul telling the church of Corinth to adapt to one's surroundings, for the sake of helping folks learn about Christ. In the previous verse, Paul states he lives as one apart from the Law of God when he's among those who live without concern of God.

This has me wondering a few things - now, for those who aren't Christians, your thoughts are welcome, however understand I don't want to see folks just stirring shit up. If that happens, you'll be promptly banned from this thread.

Here's what I'm thinking:

If somebody finds "New Age" - or whatever that is - and that faith works positively in their lives - it helps them learn to live a positive, kind, loving and happy life - who is to say that what they have found - even unbeknownst to themselves - is not God himself? Who is to say a tribe worshiping (insert their deity's name) isn't in fact, living to please and worship of the Creator? Who is to say that tribe, or that New Age Hippy isn't honestly living their life according to what we understand of Christ's message of 'just be excellent to each other" (and Party-on, Dudes).

Why do we insist folks take OUR labels for God and use them?

Wind Song

07-21-2011, 01:26 PM

The word God is a closed concept. The moment the word is uttered, a mental image is created, no longer, perhaps, of an old man with a white beard, but still a mental representation of someone or something outside you, and, yes, almost inevitably a male someone or something.

Misuse of the word, "God" leads to to absurd beliefs, assertions, and delusions, such as "My or our God is the only true God, and your God is false," or "God is dead."

No word can define the reality behind the word, "God". IMO, the word "God" is a hindrance to experiencing that which it points to.

BoogyMan

07-21-2011, 01:27 PM

The word God is a closed concept. The moment the word is uttered, a mental image is created, no longer, perhaps, of an old man with a white beard, but still a mental representation of someone or something outside you, and, yes, almost inevitably a male someone or something.

The word of God is the word of God. As far as a closed concept, if you mean that man has no right to change it you would be right, but anything else you might mean in that statement would have to be explained.

Wind Song

07-21-2011, 01:34 PM

By "word of God", you mean the bible? Too limiting.

darin

07-21-2011, 02:13 PM

Wind Song

07-21-2011, 02:17 PM

Define what you mean by 'word of God". You're the one who used it, not me. I questioned you.

darin

07-21-2011, 02:27 PM

Define what you mean by 'word of God". You're the one who used it, not me. I questioned you.

I didn't use "Word of God" - try www.hop.com

Wind Song

07-21-2011, 02:30 PM

Boogy Man used the term, "word of God". I responded to his post. As for me being "seriously in danger of going off topic", if you feel my post is breaking the rules, or that staff should be aware of my post, report it.

Thunderknuckles

07-21-2011, 03:42 PM

If that argument is the Christian or Biblical point of view, could either or both have it wrong?
Could be. The Christian faith, and the Bible as well, have been heavily influenced by man over time. I think the general theme of God's will has been left intact but when it comes to specifics, answers are harder to come by and we are left with the question of faith.

darin

07-21-2011, 05:18 PM

Thunderknuckles

07-21-2011, 05:35 PM

I am staff.
I don't think God ever went by that name :p

Wind Song

07-21-2011, 07:16 PM

I am staff.

And? The point is?

darin

07-21-2011, 08:45 PM

And? The point is?

Did you try that link? www.hop.com?

I guess the point is: It was stupid to suggest I 'involve staff' if I think you're going off topic. That clear enough? 'thanks' for your participation in this thread

BoogyMan

07-21-2011, 09:35 PM

I don't understand how what you're saying pertains to what I'm asking. I'm saying "does using other words absolutely mean that work and worship is NOT of Christ?"

We have to consider by whose authority can words and actions relating to the faith once delivered to us be used or undertaken. Cultural religious icons that do not fit with the patterns given us in the New Testament are simply unauthorized as Christ has been given authority over all things to the church. (Eph 1:22)

I am not sure how going outside of that authority could be considered "of Christ."

Define what you mean by 'word of God". You're the one who used it, not me. I questioned you.

2 Tim 3:16 "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness"

gabosaurus

07-22-2011, 12:14 AM

I think the word of God can be interpreted in many ways. There are many faiths (Catholics and Baptists come to mind) who believe God's word should always be presented the exact same way, throughout all eternity. I believe otherwise.
This is because I have been to youth services where the word of God is presented in modern dialect. You wouldn't believe how many kids become interest when Jesus is presented as being a rebel and a non-conformist of his time. It makes them want to read the original text (The Bible) to compare with their own upbringing.
When you think about it, Jesus was pretty rebellious for his time. He urged his followers to defy authority and stand up for their believes, even in the face of persecution and death.

I am staff.

Thus the land was run over by the wicked and lecherous. Their arguments were divisive and led to much disagreement. This lack of harmony was furthered by a lack of authority that permitted such scandalous behavior.
Soon a call went out for some to restore good and righteousness to the land. They were answered by the God of the Interwebs, who dispatched his minions to smite the evil, the godless and the liberals. Those who meant trouble were rendered asunder by His mighty staff. The women didn't mind either. :rolleyes:

darin

07-22-2011, 03:56 AM

2 Tim 3:16 "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness"

Paul wasn't talking about the new testament then. He probably had no idea he was writing our Bible.

PostmodernProphet

07-22-2011, 10:37 PM

Does God care what you call him?

apparently....
13 (http://bible.cc/exodus/3-13.htm)Moses said to God, “Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, ‘What is his name?’ Then what shall I tell them?”
14 (http://bible.cc/exodus/3-14.htm)God said to Moses, “I am who I am.b (http://niv.scripturetext.com/exodus/3.htm#footnotesb) This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I am has sent me to you.’”
15 (http://bible.cc/exodus/3-15.htm)God also said to Moses, “Say to the Israelites, ‘The Lord,c (http://niv.scripturetext.com/exodus/3.htm#footnotesc) the God of your fathers—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob—has sent me to you.’ This is my name forever, the name by which I am to be remembered from generation to generation.

fj1200

07-22-2011, 10:47 PM

Here's what I'm thinking:

So, is the question does God care if we call him Fred or is the question that those who don't know "God" but do know their "God" and follow their religion as they know it worthy of being saved?

darin

07-22-2011, 11:54 PM

apparently....
13 (http://bible.cc/exodus/3-13.htm)Moses said to God, “Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, ‘What is his name?’ Then what shall I tell them?”
14 (http://bible.cc/exodus/3-14.htm)God said to Moses, “I am who I am.b (http://niv.scripturetext.com/exodus/3.htm#footnotesb) This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I am has sent me to you.’”
15 (http://bible.cc/exodus/3-15.htm)God also said to Moses, “Say to the Israelites, ‘The Lord,c (http://niv.scripturetext.com/exodus/3.htm#footnotesc) the God of your fathers—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob—has sent me to you.’ This is my name forever, the name by which I am to be remembered from generation to generation.

What God said to Moses; his instruction to Moses and how Moses should present Him to Israel, in that circumstance, doesn't bother nor concern me. God said lots of things, according to the Bible, to lots of people - doesn't make those instructions universally applicable.

So, is the question does God care if we call him Fred or is the question that those who don't know "God" but do know their "God" and follow their religion as they know it worthy of being saved?

My question is, Can folks Love and Obey and Serve God without, perhaps, even knowing it?
FWIW, Nobody is 'worthy' - that's where Grace comes in.

:)

fj1200

07-22-2011, 11:59 PM

My question is, Can folks Love and Obey and Serve God without, perhaps, even knowing it?

For that last part I would say no as one would have to believe to be saved but without that I would say yes.

FWIW, Nobody is 'worthy' - that's where Grace comes in.

FWIW, that would be your Christian perspective answering a non-Christian question.

PostmodernProphet

07-23-2011, 06:36 AM

I expect that answer is quite simply this......those that believe on Jesus will call upon him and look for salvation through his grace........those that believe in Buddha will call on him and look to their salvation from HIS grace......those that believe in "Fred" will call upon him and look for their salvation in HIS grace......regardless of your beliefs, it should be pretty obvious that all of them aren't going to end up in the same place......those of you who opt for "Fred" are going to have to be content with "Fred"'s heaven.....

fj1200

07-23-2011, 07:43 AM

...regardless of your beliefs, it should be pretty obvious that all of them aren't going to end up in the same place...

Why not? Various people may just be believing in the various manifestations of the same God. Your version would have one believing in a form of polytheism wouldn't it?

darin

07-23-2011, 04:32 PM

For that last part I would say no as one would have to believe to be saved but without that I would say yes.

Then I guess my question is - what if they believe after they die - why the timetable? Further, When Christ said 'it is finished' at the cross, did he mean "it is finished for only some folks who follow exactly what Constantine will officially declare as being 'Biblical'"?

BoogyMan

07-23-2011, 06:31 PM

Paul wasn't talking about the new testament then. He probably had no idea he was writing our Bible.

I beg to differ. He knew that what he was teaching was profitable for all that God had in mind for man. We are still in New Testament times and your scenario, in that light, doesn't hold water.

fj1200

07-23-2011, 09:50 PM

Then I guess my question is - what if they believe after they die - why the timetable? Further, When Christ said 'it is finished' at the cross, did he mean "it is finished for only some folks who follow exactly what Constantine will officially declare as being 'Biblical'"?

What faith or judgement based on how you live your life is there if you only believe when the great mystery is revealed.

darin

07-24-2011, 09:44 AM

I beg to differ. He knew that what he was teaching was profitable for all that God had in mind for man. We are still in New Testament times and your scenario, in that light, doesn't hold water.

I don't believe there's any evidence the specific authors knew they were writing a bible. Every reference they made to 'scripture' was talking about the OT.

What faith or judgement based on how you live your life is there if you only believe when the great mystery is revealed.

What faith does it take to believe BEFORE? Folks who know God 'see' him already, anyway. :)

BoogyMan

07-24-2011, 12:00 PM

I don't believe there's any evidence the specific authors knew they were writing a bible. Every reference they made to 'scripture' was talking about the OT.

I believe that you are wrong, and here is why. The New Testament authors were given a task and their teachings were made perfect by the Holy Spirit who brought to their remembrance all that Christ had taught them. John 14:26-27 The apostles knew their words were important and would be used to teach, that much is very clear. Since they were not teaching the Old Testament scripture as the path to salvation under Christ, at that point it would make absolutely no sense for Peter to be referencing Timothy to the Old Testament.

fj1200

07-24-2011, 12:28 PM

What faith does it take to believe BEFORE? Folks who know God 'see' him already, anyway. :)

Then those lucky ones are truly blessed.

darin

07-25-2011, 06:37 AM

I believe that you are wrong, and here is why. The New Testament authors were given a task and their teachings were made perfect by the Holy Spirit who brought to their remembrance all that Christ had taught them. John 14:26-27 The apostles knew their words were important and would be used to teach, that much is very clear. Since they were not teaching the Old Testament scripture as the path to salvation under Christ, at that point it would make absolutely no sense for Peter to be referencing Timothy to the Old Testament.

What leads you to believe the authors of those books knew they were being tasked to write the bible? The Verses in John seem to imply the bible isn't needed. The verse says The HS taught the audience for that verse everything they needed to know.

Then those lucky ones are truly blessed.

My point is, folks believe or not, based on evidence.

fj1200

07-25-2011, 09:16 AM

My point is, folks believe or not, based on evidence.

What evidence? If there is evidence there is no need for faith because you already know.

darin

07-25-2011, 09:32 AM

What evidence? If there is evidence there is no need for faith because you already know.

Christ used miracles for 'evidence' of his divinity and God's love for folk. Christ did things 'so folks would know he is of God' and what-not. When folks connect with God, they often have measurable changes in their lives. If somebody felt God provided no benefit, they likely would never believe.
Evidence requires Faith for a determination of validity. There's evidence we evolved single-celled microbes and what-not. I don't have the Faith to believe that crap. There's evidence all creation just magically happened - or by random chance...I have nowhere NEAR enough faith to believe that tripe. See what I mean?

fj1200

07-25-2011, 09:42 AM

See what I mean?

Not really. I haven't seen Christ and I haven't seen miracles (I think). The "benefit" of God is not on this earth, it's in the next life.

Evolution/Creation??? There is only interpretation of evidence.

darin

07-25-2011, 11:09 AM

Not really. I haven't seen Christ and I haven't seen miracles (I think). The "benefit" of God is not on this earth, it's in the next life.

Evolution/Creation??? There is only interpretation of evidence.

Are you saying folks Follow christ in the absence of any evidence what they believe is true? Earlier I said folks who have sought God and found a relationship with Him have TONS of evidence to support their faith. Evidence of something does not mean it takes 'no faith' to believe.

PostmodernProphet

07-25-2011, 12:47 PM

Why not? Various people may just be believing in the various manifestations of the same God. Your version would have one believing in a form of polytheism wouldn't it?

no, polytheism would argue that it doesn't matter if you believe in "Fred" because God would accept you anyway.......my belief is that if you believe in Fred and there is no Fred, you are screwed.......you will stand at "Fred's" bus stop with your ticket to "Fred's" heaven in your hand but the bus will never come.......

Then I guess my question is - what if they believe after they die - why the timetable?

does God give "mulligans"?.......

darin

07-25-2011, 02:03 PM

no, polytheism would argue that it doesn't matter if you believe in "Fred" because God would accept you anyway.......my belief is that if you believe in Fred and there is no Fred, you are screwed.......you will stand at "Fred's" bus stop with your ticket to "Fred's" heaven in your hand but the bus will never come.......

My question is one of semantics. Does semantics matter to God? Love the Lord, your God with all your heart, and your brother as yourself. Those are what Christ is reported as saying to answer the question of "what's really important to God?"

does God give "mulligans"?.......

Absolutely. All the time.

Abbey Marie

07-25-2011, 04:48 PM

If you are addressing the God of the Bible, the trinity, our Lord Jesus (with reverance and understanding of who the Bible says it is you worship), the actual word you use doesn't probably matter.

If you mean it's all the same if it is the god of the Koran or Buddha, etc., with all of the attendant differences therein, particularly the absence of belief in Jesus as our Savior, then I would say it does indeed matter.

darin

07-25-2011, 05:21 PM

righto - abbey. I guess I'm asking if one can follow God, but not think of him or know Him as the God of the Bible.

BoogyMan

07-25-2011, 05:34 PM

What leads you to believe the authors of those books knew they were being tasked to write the bible? The Verses in John seem to imply the bible isn't needed. The verse says The HS taught the audience for that verse everything they needed to know.

The Apostles knew they were teaching the infalible will of God. The HS brought the the Apostles memory "all that Christ had taught them." John 14:26 If the Word was infallible then, it is so now.

revelarts

07-25-2011, 06:12 PM

righto - abbey. I guess I'm asking if one can follow God, but not think of him or know Him as the God of the Bible.

A few people have answered in different ways that seem to answer the question but here's a bit more.

7. To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism. 12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

16 While Paul was waiting for them in Athens, he was greatly distressed to see that the city was full of idols. 17 So he reasoned in the synagogue with both Jews and God-fearing Greeks, as well as in the marketplace day by day with those who happened to be there. 18 A group of Epicurean and Stoic philosophers began to debate with him. Some of them asked, “What is this babbler trying to say?” Others remarked, “He seems to be advocating foreign gods.” They said this because Paul was preaching the good news about Jesus and the resurrection. 19 Then they took him and brought him to a meeting of the Areopagus, where they said to him, “May we know what this new teaching is that you are presenting? 20 You are bringing some strange ideas to our ears, and we would like to know what they mean.” 21 (All the Athenians and the foreigners who lived there spent their time doing nothing but talking about and listening to the latest ideas.) 22 Paul then stood up in the meeting of the Areopagus and said: “People of Athens! I see that in every way you are very religious. 23 For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO AN UNKNOWN GOD. So you are ignorant of the very thing you worship—and this is what I am going to proclaim to you.

24 “The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands. 25 And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything. Rather, he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else. 26 From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. 27 God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. 28 ‘For in him we live and move and have our being.’[b (http://classic.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2017&version=NIV#fen-NIV-27552b)] As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’[c (http://classic.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2017&version=NIV#fen-NIV-27552c)]

29 “Therefore since we are God’s offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by human design and skill. 30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.”

32 When they heard about the resurrection of the dead, some of them sneered, but others said, “We want to hear you again on this subject.” 33 At that, Paul left the Council. 34 Some of the people became followers of Paul and believed. Among them was Dionysius, a member of the Areopagus, also a woman named Damaris, and a number of others.

fj1200

07-25-2011, 08:06 PM

righto - abbey. I guess I'm asking if one can follow God, but not think of him or know Him as the God of the Bible.

What about those who did not have the chance to know the God of the Bible?

fj1200

07-25-2011, 08:16 PM

Are you saying folks Follow christ in the absence of any evidence what they believe is true? Earlier I said folks who have sought God and found a relationship with Him have TONS of evidence to support their faith. Evidence of something does not mean it takes 'no faith' to believe.

Yes, the evidence that they have is unlikely to be tangible that can be shared with someone else. I may feel that my life is better with God than without but that can be due to many factors and not solely due to the acceptance of God.

no, polytheism would argue that it doesn't matter if you believe in "Fred" because God would accept you anyway.......my belief is that if you believe in Fred and there is no Fred, you are screwed.......you will stand at "Fred's" bus stop with your ticket to "Fred's" heaven in your hand but the bus will never come.......

It's not a matter of polytheism, it may just be a matter of following the God that you know. D could have asked the same question within Christianity and we could argue over each individual denomination and who's right and who's wrong but his question related to all religion. Is a Hindu, for example, already at a disadvantage just because of where he/she was born? I don't like to think of a God that would be that arbitrary.

darin

07-25-2011, 08:18 PM

A few people have answered in different ways that seem to answer the question but here's a bit more.

None of that answers the question for me.

But actually, when I read this:

All who are wicked will be punished with trouble and suffering. It doesn't matter if they are Jews or Gentiles. 10But all who do right will be rewarded with glory, honor, and peace, whether they are Jews or Gentiles. 11God doesn't have any favorites!
12Those people who don't know about God's Law will still be punished for what they do wrong. And the Law will be used to judge everyone who knows what it says. 13God accepts those who obey his Law, but not those who simply hear it.
14Some people naturally obey the Law's commands, even though they don't have the Law. 15This proves that the conscience is like a law written in the human heart. And it will show whether we are forgiven or condemned, 16when God appoints Jesus Christ to judge everyone's secret thoughts, just as my message says.

That tells me those who never hear from our modern Bible, the story of Christ, but yet do good, because it's their nature, will enter heaven. It also leads me to think it's very possible to be serving God and having no idea you are. Doing, not hearing, is what makes the difference with God. Thus, it seems entirely possible for somebody to be doing the will of God - living according to His wishes - having NEVER heard the 'traditional story of salvation'.

BUT - doesn't all that fly in the face of "It's not by works we are saved - but by grace" etc? Sometimes the bible seems to contradict itself.

What about those who did not have the chance to know the God of the Bible?

See above.

BoogyMan

07-25-2011, 08:40 PM

That tells me those who never hear from our modern Bible, the story of Christ, but yet do good, because it's their nature, will enter heaven. It also leads me to think it's very possible to be serving God and having no idea you are. Doing, not hearing, is what makes the difference with God. Thus, it seems entirely possible for somebody to be doing the will of God - living according to His wishes - having NEVER heard the 'traditional story of salvation'.

This simply points out the idea that man knows right from wrong, and the context points out that those who do wrong will be punished. This most certainly never makes the case that those who do not know God but are "good" people will find salvation in their error.

Both John chapters 14 and 15 show Jesus saying "if ye love me keep my commandments." If one does not know those commandments one cannot keep them nor abide in Christ.

John 15:10 "If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love."

darin

07-25-2011, 08:45 PM

This simply points out the idea that man knows right from wrong, and the context points out that those who do wrong will be punished. This most certainly never makes the case that those who do not know God but are "good" people will find salvation in their error.

Both John chapters 14 and 15 show Jesus saying "if ye love me keep my commandments." If one does not know those commandments one cannot keep them nor abide in Christ.

John 15:10 "If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love."

You are sort of proving my point. Keeping Christ's commandments doesn't mean (nor does it matter, based on Paul's instruction) if one has actually heard the commandments, or read about them. When folks abide in Love, they keep His commandments because God's word IS written on the hearts of men, as Paul taught.

revelarts

07-25-2011, 09:41 PM

You are sort of proving my point. Keeping Christ's commandments doesn't mean (nor does it matter, based on Paul's instruction) if one has actually heard the commandments, or read about them. When folks abide in Love, they keep His commandments because God's word IS written on the hearts of men, as Paul taught.can i ask you a question?

do you agree that those that HAVE had Jesus and the bible presented to them and reject it but live fairly decent lives are NOT actually following God the creator?
Because if they were following thru on the witness of God in their hearts they would recognize God in Jesus and the scriptures?

SassyLady

07-26-2011, 01:12 AM

You are sort of proving my point. Keeping Christ's commandments doesn't mean (nor does it matter, based on Paul's instruction) if one has actually heard the commandments, or read about them. When folks abide in Love, they keep His commandments because God's word IS written on the hearts of men, as Paul taught.

I absolutely believe humans come into this life knowing deep in their hearts what is right and what is wrong.....they may not remember they know, but I believe they know deep down inside...and they will either hold on to what they know, forget it and perhaps eventually remember it, or they will ignore/deny it.

darin

07-26-2011, 05:00 AM

can i ask you a question?

do you agree that those that HAVE had Jesus and the bible presented to them and reject it but live fairly decent lives are NOT actually following God the creator?
Because if they were following thru on the witness of God in their hearts they would recognize God in Jesus and the scriptures?

yeah, no idea. See, I'm still wondering - Adam's sin automatically doomed all mankind, practically...yet Christ's work wasn't able to automatically save all mankind? Then I think about Sin and wonder about Grace.

Gunny

07-26-2011, 04:03 PM

revelarts

07-27-2011, 12:40 PM

yeah, no idea. See, I'm still wondering - Adam's sin automatically doomed all mankind, practically...yet Christ's work wasn't able to automatically save all mankind? Then I think about Sin and wonder about Grace.

so your not sure that Jesus saves at all it sounds like.
What's your take on John 3:17-18
For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

does the world mean the world
and what does believe mean to you?

darin

07-27-2011, 01:00 PM

so your not sure that Jesus saves at all it sounds like.
What's your take on John 3:17-18
For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

does the world mean the world
and what does believe mean to you?

Actually, quite the opposite. I'm saying if Adam and Eve's single transgression brought sin upon all mankind, whether mankind thereafter sinned or not, why couldn't Jesus' work have 'saved' (for lack of a better word) all?

The world means 'all mankind' to me. God sent Christ to save 'all mankind'.

Thunderknuckles

07-27-2011, 01:24 PM

Actually, quite the opposite. I'm saying if Adam and Eve's single transgression brought sin upon all mankind, whether mankind thereafter sinned or not, why couldn't Jesus' work have 'saved' (for lack of a better word) all?

The world means 'all mankind' to me. God sent Christ to save 'all mankind'.
He sent Jesus to save all mankind but it is up to each person to confess their sins to Christ, repent in their hearts, and accept Christ as their savior. Jesus did not mean to just show up and say "You're all saved now. Kthx bye."
No free government bailouts here :p

darin

07-27-2011, 01:38 PM

He sent Jesus to save all mankind but it is up to each person to confess their sins to Christ, repent in their hearts, and accept Christ as their savior. Jesus did not mean to just show up and say "You're all saved now. Kthx bye."
No free government bailouts here :p

kinda shitty we didn't have to accept our sin, decide to keep away from God, and reject Christ to get condemned. Seems like the Devil really wins the game of numbers, what, billions to one?

revelarts

07-27-2011, 03:00 PM

Matthew 7
11 If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! 12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets. 13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

I'm not going to get into the whole Armenian vs Calvinism thing but in general it sounds like you might need to work that out for in your own mind.
Is God evil or is he good, or is the Bible wrong... becuase you don't think it's fair? Or are you going to read it in a way that suits your own vision of what God/Blank ought to do? or you chuck the whole god/bible thing?

Romans
14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,
“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.

Revelations
1 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,”[a (http://classic.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+21&version=NIV#fen-NIV-31055a)] for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’[b (http://classic.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+21&version=NIV#fen-NIV-31058b)] or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.” 5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!” Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”
6 He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7 Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children. 8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

darin

07-27-2011, 04:30 PM

Matthew 7
I'm not going to get into the whole Armenian vs Calvinism thing but in general it sounds like you might need to work that out for in your own mind.
Is God evil or is he good, or is the Bible wrong... becuase you don't think it's fair? Or are you going to read it in a way that suits your own vision of what God/Blank ought to do? or you chuck the whole god/bible thing?

Calvinism is purely and completely anti-christian in my view. :)

Of course God is Good. My questions revolve around "seems like the Devil won if he 'gets' more souls". :(

fj1200

07-27-2011, 04:55 PM

What's wrong with Calvinism?

darin

07-27-2011, 06:34 PM

What's wrong with Calvinism?

...it's incompatible with 'Love'.

Abbey Marie

07-28-2011, 10:00 AM

Dear Everyone,

No one comes to the Father, but through Me.

Love,
Jesus

:)

darin

07-28-2011, 10:10 AM

Dear Everyone,

No one comes to the Father, but through Me.

Love,
Jesus

:)

...even if they don't realize it? :)

Abbey Marie

07-28-2011, 10:19 AM

...even if they don't realize it? :)

Don't realize who Jesus is, or don't realize they are not saved?

darin

07-28-2011, 10:29 AM

Don't realize who Jesus is, or don't realize they are not saved?

If they don't realize Christ is who compels them to find God.

Abbey Marie

07-28-2011, 01:32 PM

If they don't realize Christ is who compels them to find God.

Not sure about those super-remote tribes, etc.; perhaps they are treated by God like children. But I suspect that the overwhelming majority of people have heard of him and the most basic tenets of the gospel.

darin

07-28-2011, 01:48 PM

Not sure about those super-remote tribes, etc.; perhaps they are treated by God like children. But I suspect that the overwhelming majority of people have heard of him and the most basic tenets of the gospel.

Righto. That's sorta where I'm going with this. And - doesn't Christ "have the keys to the gates of Hell"? If so, seems a shame he'd open those gates to send folks through based on their lack of faith.

chloe

07-28-2011, 02:49 PM

as long as I don't call him late for supper......:laugh2: (obviously I'm kidden; don't everyone beat me up at once !)

I don't really know if God wants to be called a specific name or not.

-Cp

08-01-2011, 05:23 PM

Thunderknuckles

08-01-2011, 05:32 PM

Really? Did the thief on the cross "acknowledge HIm as the Creator and source of faith"?
I believe so. In the end the thief was repentant and asked Jesus to remember him when he came into is kingdom which suggests that he accepted Jesus as Christ, son of God.

-Cp

08-01-2011, 05:51 PM

I believe so. In the end the thief was repentant and asked Jesus to remember him when he came into is kingdom which suggests that he accepted Jesus as Christ, son of God.

Nothing like reading into the text, something that's not there..

What about aborted babies or the mentally retarded?

Thunderknuckles

08-01-2011, 07:45 PM

Cp, I think you are taking my responses as ones meant to convince you of the validity of Christ and God. They are not. They are objective responses to the originally posted question based on my knowledge of the Christian faith which is by no means definitive.

Nothing like reading into the text, something that's not there..
The scene with Jesus and the two criminals is pretty straight forward. One was not repentant and asked Jesus to save them IF he was indeed the Messiah. The other criminal, the thief, rebuked the man and asked if he did not fear God, stated their punishment was just, and asked Jesus to remember him when he came into his Kingdom. What kingdom do you think he is referring to? He is clearly acknowledging Jesus as the Messiah and as such, the son of God who can only be the God of Abraham. In the end, Jesus forgave the thief but did not address the other criminal.

What about aborted babies or the mentally retarded?
What does this have to do with the original question?

Bottom line. Does God care what you call him? In Christianity the answer is pretty clear. If you're not a Christian then answer the question based on your religion. If you're an Atheist, this entire thread is moot.

-Cp

08-01-2011, 07:56 PM

If you're an Atheist, this entire thread is moot.

If you're an Atheist, God still loves you just the same so this thread is not moot to them... It's not their faulty they dont' believe in God yet - he simply hasn't revealed himself to them yet.. Remember.. it's all in God's control.. not man's..

The scene with Jesus and the two criminals is pretty straight forward. One was not repentant and asked Jesus to save them IF he was indeed the Messiah. The other criminal, the thief, rebuked the man and asked if he did not fear God, stated their punishment was just, and asked Jesus to remember him when he came into his Kingdom. What kingdom do you think he is referring to? He is clearly acknowledging Jesus as the Messiah and as such, the son of God who can only be the God of Abraham. In the end, Jesus forgave the thief but did not address the other criminal.

Once again, you seem to be taking a LOT of liberties with the text by stating implications that simply are not there. Is there anything in the passage here to indicate that thief could have "known he was the Son of God- the only God of Abraham etc"? No...

Additionally, there's nowhere where it says he was "repentant".... Asking some dude to remember you is not at al the same as asking for his forgiveness...