Prolife? Read this response

[gabosaurus]

Since the other thread has gotten a bit convoluted and long and length, I thought I would start a new one.

The basis is something I got in my mail. It is the answer posed by a woman who has had an abortion, as part of the continuing debate.
It is extremely lengthy, but well thought out and an honest answer by someone who has been there and done that. You may then continue with your hysterical posturing on the subject. :p




My Abortion Letter to Republican’s
-
I had an abortion when I was young; and aware of what I was doing. I did it under extraordinary and difficult circumstances; and with good reason. The details aren’t any of your business. My right to privacy should never be infringed upon. Without inalienable rights we have no rights at all.
-
My mind heavily weighed the options and I even wrote down the pros and cons. Why are the women abused over this and not the men? My God, isn’t it enough I had to go through a procedure like that and so long ago to suffer again. No woman wants to go through that type of physical and mental pain.
-
I’ve read online posting telling women to close their legs, or use the birth control, but I never read posting stating the man should have worn protection. I was never promiscuous. Where is the birth control for the man? The “Adam and Eve Effect” is religious persecution directed at women? Women are always the ones to blame and bear the burden. We have de-evolved. This is not good.
-
Let’s shame and blame the woman beforehand so the “Jesus freaks” feel godly. Let’s make that decision as painful for them as we can because we are good people? Shaming, blaming, punishing and burdening a distraught woman is not godly! That is what religion is about these days, isn’t it? Religion is sick!
-
Fetuses are miscarried every day. Babies die in foster care from abuse, neglect, malnourishment, drug related, disability related, and disease related situations every day. God takes care of the dead. We don’t do well taking care of the living. We hate those that don’t think like us and we hate the underprivileged because they are an economic burden on the rest of us and it is a reminder that it could be you or me. You want them to be born into poverty, without proper health care, with poor education, and in deplorable conditions. How noble of the pro lifers. Yes, it is your moral duty to bring them into a world of oppression so you can control their choices, and hate on them from draining your wealth. This, so you can feel good about yourself? Pro lifers live in denial!
-
You aren’t pro-life. You are anti-choice. Our Constitution is based on liberalism. Roe v Wade was upheld a long time ago by a Republican majority on our Supreme Court. Focus on our economy.
-
I’ve volunteered in foster care programs you guys are clueless to what goes on in foster care homes. I’ve volunteered in just about every social system. I know exactly what I’m talking about. You are ignorant individuals. You live in that bubble in that clueless world don’t you? Poor people don’t live like that. Hypocrites judge people based on their lives, their choices and their belief system. You have no right to do that.
-
Overpopulation, a declining water table, the earth cycling out, and starvation are painful deaths for a society. I’d say your focus is inappropriate.
-
You have no right to compare your life, your choices, and your experiences to mine, and think that what works for you is the answer for everybody. I think that is selfish. I think wanting to control the outcome of someone else’s private matter is selfish. You want to control two lives. I’m handing the situation over to God to control. I had lost control.
-
If you really cared you would fix our economy, stop cutting Texas education, and provide for the poor. You don’t want to take care of them once you save them. Hypocrites! This is about slamming strong women that don’t buy into the theological oppression of women.
-
I believe in a democracy. You are after a theocratic society and that promotes oppression.
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I’ve raised an exceptional child. My experience made me a better mom. God doesn’t beat me up for it, but people like you continue to do so. Women like me have to relive that nightmare all over again to stand up for our daughters; and to stand up for all women and their right to their own body. My abortion might have been part of God’s plan.
-
I would do it all over again, and that isn’t what you want to hear. Well guess what? It isn’t about you. It is about my life, my body and my choice. God will judge me. It isn’t your place. We have to draw a reasonable line somewhere. Your line is a prison line; and you will not imprison my body using religious trickery to violate individual privacy. You are attacking my beliefs and my religion to get the outcome that you want! That is freedom for some but ideological controlling of others. You don’t have a democracy when you do that.

[fj1200]

She's drowning in a sea of false premises.

[gabosaurus]

She's drowning in a sea of false premises.

Religious extremists have been doing the same thing for centuries.

[Kathianne]

Religious extremists have been doing the same thing for centuries.

Gabby, just email her back and have her read your idiotic thread on 'kids today needing abortions because they are fat, giving into peer pressure, or stupid.

Lots of responses there from 'conservatives' that weren't saying to keep their knees together or not condemning boys for not wearing a condom.

The assumptions are old and not relevant, much like your earlier thread.

[J.T]

My Abortion Letter to Republican’s
:lol:

So much for that liberal education



My right to privacy should never be infringed upon. Shame Charles Manson didn't try that one in court :rolleyes:


Without inalienable rights we have no rights at all. Without the right to even exist (the right to life), there are no rights at all. All rights rest upon this foundation, for the dead have no rights; if I retain the right to strip you of life, I retain the right to strip you of any other 'rights' you might wish to claim.



I’ve read online posting telling women to close their legs, or use the birth control, but I never read posting stating the man should have worn protection.I call bullshit. I and others have applies the same standard to both sides.

But far be it from a neofeminazi to think women should be responsible for themselves. As always, it's always 'the man' keeping her down :laugh:


Where is the birth control for the man? en route (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3543478/ns/health-sexual_health/t/male-birth-control-pill-soon-reality/).

In the mean time, use a condom. Or, let's try something crazy tell girls that 'hey, the reality of pregnancy is that you carry the child. try using bc if you don't want a fucking child'

But I know, I know, females are helpless little retarded creatures incapable of sentient thought, personal responsibility, or handling their own affairs.... There is no greater misogynist that a modern 'feminist'.


The “Adam and Eve Effect” is religious persecution directed at women? Women are always the ones to blame and bear the burden. What the fuck are you babbling about?



Fetuses are miscarried every dayAnd women have heart attacks. Does that making slitting their throats in dark alleys okay?


Babies die in foster care from abuse, neglect, malnourishment, drug related, disability related, and disease related situations every day.So do old people. Does that make it cool to beat the elderly to death with bats, remove their limbs with chain saws, and then use them as holloween decorations?


God takes care of the deadDidn't she just go on a whole antitheist rant a short while ago?


We hate those that don’t think like us and we hate the underprivileged because they are an economic burden on the rest of us -which is why you want to use abortion to prevent their numbers from increasing. Good to see one of you finally admit it.


You are anti-choiceSo you support my right to choose to stab you in the head tomorrow night and suck your brains out with a shopvac?


our Constitution is based on liberalismAnd what's one of the pillars of Liberalism? Natural rights... and upon what right do all others rest? The right to one's life...



OverpopulationMalthus strikes again! :laugh:

Scratch a pro-abortionist, find a genocidal eugenic maniac with a god complex



You have no right to compare your life, your choices, and your experiences to mineSo you totally have no room to judge Ricardo Ramirez or Timothy McVeigh?


I think that is selfish. Says the one who killed her baby to avoid stretch marks ans personal responsibility :rolleyes:


You are attacking my beliefs and my religion to get the outcome that you want! :lol:

Sweet Irony, batman! Didn't your little baby killer friend just goon an anti-religion rant earlier in that same wall of text?


So, in summation:

Why can't you pro-abortion folk be honest?

[J.T]

Religious extremists have been doing the same thing for centuries.
Are you admitting abortionism is a religion?

[logroller]

:lol:

So much for that liberal education

Shame Charles Manson didn't try that one in court :rolleyes:
Without the right to even exist (the right to life), there are no rights at all. All rights rest upon this foundation, for the dead have no rights; if I retain the right to strip you of life, I retain the right to strip you of any other 'rights' you might wish to claim.

I call bullshit. I and others have applies the same standard to both sides.

But far be it from a neofeminazi to think women should be responsible for themselves. As always, it's always 'the man' keeping her down :laugh:
en route (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3543478/ns/health-sexual_health/t/male-birth-control-pill-soon-reality/).

In the mean time, use a condom. Or, let's try something crazy tell girls that 'hey, the reality of pregnancy is that you carry the child. try using bc if you don't want a fucking child'

But I know, I know, females are helpless little retarded creatures incapable of sentient thought, personal responsibility, or handling their own affairs.... There is no greater misogynist that a modern 'feminist'.
What the fuck are you babbling about?

And women have heart attacks. Does that making slitting their throats in dark alleys okay?So do old people. Does that make it cool to beat the elderly to death with bats, remove their limbs with chain saws, and then use them as holloween decorations?
Didn't she just go on a whole antitheist rant a short while ago?
-which is why you want to use abortion to prevent their numbers from increasing. Good to see one of you finally admit it.
So you support my right to choose to stab you in the head tomorrow night and suck your brains out with a shopvac?
And what's one of the pillars of Liberalism? Natural rights... and upon what right do all others rest? The right to one's life...

Malthus strikes again! :laugh:

Scratch a pro-abortionist, find a genocidal eugenic maniac with a god complex

So you totally have no room to judge Ricardo Ramirez or Timothy McVeigh?
Says the one who killed her baby to avoid stretch marks ans personal responsibility :rolleyes:
:lol:

Sweet Irony, batman! Didn't your little baby killer friend just goon an anti-religion rant earlier in that same wall of text?


So, in summation:

Why can't you pro-abortion folk be honest?

Why do you insist on specifying pro-abortion and not pro-choice; it just makes you sound maniacally ignorant.
You want honesty--- I think you get off on insulting others to make yourself feel superior. I wont compete with such selfish indignation. If your concept of success is based upon being egotistical and pompous, I proudly concede defeat.

[J.T]

Why do you insist on specifying pro-abortion and not pro-choice

For the same reason I say pro-slavery and not pro-choice when referring to anti-abolitionists.

Why can't the pro-abortionists just be honest about what they support?

[logroller]

For the same reason I say pro-slavery and not pro-choice when referring to anti-abolitionists.

Why can't the pro-abortionists just be honest about what they support?

The same reason fascists won't admit they want to dictate everything society does, resting on the laurels of hyperbole.

[KarlMarx]

Religious extremists have been doing the same thing for centuries.

Religious extremists stick up for the right of a baby to have a life. Too bad people like you don't see it that way. Instead of a person, all you see is a choice. Much like whether to get the Quarter Pounder or the Filet O' Fish at McDonald's. The baby, or fetus, if you prefer exists solely at the convenience of the mother.

Guess what, abortion should be declared unconstitutional. It should be because it denies the right to life without due process of law. (the 5th and 14th amendments)

It should be unconstitutional because it denies equal protection under the law to the unborn that is afforded to others (the 14th amendment)

[Missileman]

It should be unconstitutional because it denies equal protection under the law to the unborn that is afforded to others (the 14th amendment)

Children, born or unborn, don't get equal treatment under the law until they're 18 in most cases, 21 in others.

[fj1200]

Children, born or unborn, don't get equal treatment under the law until they're 18 in most cases, 21 in others.

They get equal protection from death.

[fj1200]

Religious extremists have been doing the same thing for centuries.

^Throwaway line. When would the rights of her child be AT LEAST as equal to her rights?

[Missileman]

They get equal protection from death.

That's not true. Depending on what state you're in, the non-abortion killing of a fetus may or may not be designated as murder depending on extent of development.

[avatar4321]

Scratch a pro-abortionist, find a genocidal eugenic maniac with a god complex


Well, that sums things up nicely.

[KarlMarx]

Children, born or unborn, don't get equal treatment under the law until they're 18 in most cases, 21 in others.
Children have the right to life regardless

[fj1200]

That's not true. Depending on what state you're in, the non-abortion killing of a fetus may or may not be designated as murder depending on extent of development.

You're right, I was referring to the born not the unborn, I should have clarified. It is interesting the way you put that though.

[J.T]

The same reason fascists won't admit they want to dictate everything society does

True. They like to call themselves 'liberals' now...


That's not true. Depending on what state you're in, the non-abortion killing of a fetus may or may not be designated as murder depending on extent of development.

http://i.imgur.com/LEW59.jpg


Children, born or unborn, don't get equal treatment under the law until they're 18 in most cases, 21 in others.

Why can't you ever be honest?

[gabosaurus]

So tell me, JT and others, if a pregnant woman falls down a flight of stairs and her unborn child doesn't survive, would you charge her with murder? After all, she killed her child under your strict interpretation.

Or how about this: If your 14 year old daughter is raped and gets pregnant, would you force her to go through nine months of pregnancy and childbirth? Would you be content with the emotional pain and stigma that will stay with her for the rest of her life?

Can you be honest about this?

[Kathianne]

So tell me, JT and others, if a pregnant woman falls down a flight of stairs and her unborn child doesn't survive, would you charge her with murder? After all, she killed her child under your strict interpretation.

Or how about this: If your 14 year old daughter is raped and gets pregnant, would you force her to go through nine months of pregnancy and childbirth? Would you be content with the emotional pain and stigma that will stay with her for the rest of her life?

Can you be honest about this?

Throwing out these 'examples' actually mocks your own email posted, not to mention the other thread you started.

[gabosaurus]

I am actually mocking those who are trying to throw out extremist reasons why they can't deal with what the original post is about. Not every case is a straight line.

[Kathianne]

I am actually mocking those who are trying to throw out extremist reasons why they can't deal with what the original post is about. Not every case is a straight line.

From what I've seen, where you are coming from is the opposite extreme of those you are attempting to mock.

[fj1200]

So tell me, JT and others, if a pregnant woman falls down a flight of stairs and her unborn child doesn't survive, would you charge her with murder? After all, she killed her child under your strict interpretation.

She didn't commit murder.


Or how about this: If your 14 year old daughter is raped and gets pregnant, would you force her to go through nine months of pregnancy and childbirth? Would you be content with the emotional pain and stigma that will stay with her for the rest of her life?

You do realize that most people accept certain exceptions don't you? Do we also have to assume adoption doesn't exist in your world?


Can you be honest about this?

It would be nice if you could.

[J.T]

So tell me, JT and others, if a pregnant woman falls down a flight of stairs and her unborn child doesn't survive, would you charge her with murder? After all, she killed her child under your strict interpretation.

:slap:




Can you be honest about this?
It would appear you cannot

Or how about this: If your 14 year old daughter is raped and gets pregnant, would you force her to go through nine months of pregnancy and childbirth? Would you be content with the emotional pain and stigma that will stay with her for the rest of her life?

Killing her baby makes the trauma of the rape go away?

:slap:


Less than 1 of abortions involve rape or incest. That you continue to trot out these victims and exploit them for your own ends proves what sort of scum you people are.

[gabosaurus]

Less than 1 of abortions involve rape or incest. That you continue to trot out these victims and exploit them for your own ends proves what sort of scum you people are.

You are full of crap. Obviously you are not married and have no children. And you have no contact with children. Because your zero line statements show no compassion for anyone.

[J.T]

You are full of crap.

So the abortion industry lies and no abortion has ever involved a rape victim?

Okay, I'll grant you that.

http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/3711005.pdf

[logroller]

True. They like to call themselves 'liberals' now...



What planet are you from? Typically, liberals are pro-choice; which is ironic considering they're usually for expanding govt "protections", which typifies authoritarianism. But here you are vilifying liberals for promoting less govt interference, calling them fascists-- you need to brush up on political science, because conservative views implemented through govt is fascism, not liberalism.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/36/European-political-spectrum.png/558px-European-political-spectrum.png

[avatar4321]

You are full of crap. Obviously you are not married and have no children. And you have no contact with children. Because your zero line statements show no compassion for anyone.

Because naturally those who are married and have children generation show compassion by killing their unborn offspring...

[DragonStryk72]

So tell me, JT and others, if a pregnant woman falls down a flight of stairs and her unborn child doesn't survive, would you charge her with murder? After all, she killed her child under your strict interpretation.

No, she didn't. As you said, she fell down the stairs. To make your analogy work, you would have had to said that she stabbed herself in the uterus, or otherwise purposely killed the child. then, yes, that's murder.

Or how about this: If your 14 year old daughter is raped and gets pregnant, would you force her to go through nine months of pregnancy and childbirth? Would you be content with the emotional pain and stigma that will stay with her for the rest of her life?

No, of course not. Now, how about the other 99% of abortions? Can you be honest about that?

Can you be honest about this?

Yes, now let's see if you can.

[J.T]

What planet are you from? Typically, liberals are pro-choice;

While Liberals are pro-life, as the right to life is the foundation of Liberalism.

But here you are vilifying liberals for promoting less govt interference

:lol:


The people calling themselves 'liberals' are the same assholes behind the war against cigarettes.


-- you need to brush up on political science, because conservative views implemented through govt is fascism, not liberalism.

As I said, they like to call themselves 'liberals'.

Also liberal =/= Liberal and liberalism =/= Liberalism

Most of the so-called 'liberals' in contemporary politics are something much more akin to democratic socialists.


As for your chart: I call bullshit. 'conservative' is a meaningless and subjective term. 'Conservative Liberalism' is an oxymoron, as Liberalism arose in opposition to long-standing values and social norms. 'conservative liberalism' is also a nonsense phrase, as both social and fiscal liberalism are at odds with long-standing norms and tradition, which conservatives, by definition, seek to uphold. 'Conservatism' means nothing more or less than support of the status quo or the status quo ante. This makes everything from hippies to segregationists to Tories to primitavists all conservatives by definition.

[gabosaurus]

Cigarettes kill people. That is why pregnant women are encouraged not to smoke. There is a high percentage of fetal birth defects present in women who smoked regularly during pregnancy, along with irregular development and brain damage.

Which leads me to wonder: What kind of cigs did J.T.'s mom smoke while she was pregnant?

[DragonStryk72]

Cigarettes kill people. That is why pregnant women are encouraged not to smoke. There is a high percentage of fetal birth defects present in women who smoked regularly during pregnancy, along with irregular development and brain damage.

Which leads me to wonder: What kind of cigs did J.T.'s mom smoke while she was pregnant?

Alright, fine. What of my point? I kept it pretty direct and simple, so it should be easy to address my point.

[logroller]

While Liberals are pro-life, as the right to life is the foundation of Liberalism.


:lol:


The people calling themselves 'liberals' are the same assholes behind the war against cigarettes.

As I said, they like to call themselves 'liberals'.

Also liberal =/= Liberal and liberalism =/= Liberalism

Most of the so-called 'liberals' in contemporary politics are something much more akin to democratic socialists.


As for your chart: I call bullshit. 'conservative' is a meaningless and subjective term. 'Conservative Liberalism' is an oxymoron, as Liberalism arose in opposition to long-standing values and social norms. 'conservative liberalism' is also a nonsense phrase, as both social and fiscal liberalism are at odds with long-standing norms and tradition, which conservatives, by definition, seek to uphold. 'Conservatism' means nothing more or less than support of the status quo or the status quo ante. This makes everything from hippies to segregationists to Tories to primitavists all conservatives by definition.

All right, now we're we're getting somewhere. Admittedly the chart is dated, but not bullshit. I could say the same thing about your differentiating between capital punctuation; but semantics aside, attn to the status quo is an interesting note. The Western settlement of America was primarily of puritanical origins (Scarlet letter, witchhunts etc) having fled the religious persecution under the despotic Anglicans; demonstrating a individualism often characterized as liberal or progressive. Conversely, they had a marked conservative expectation of personal behavior, a moral code if you will, having stemmed from the early Reformist's standards based on Catholic ideals, ie the status quo. Combining these two conflicting terms appears converse, so I couldn't tell you that "liberal conservatism" isn't oxymoronic with a straight face, but just because oxymorons aren't correct, doesn't mean they are false. If I told you I had a "near miss", you wouldn't assume I wasn't hit, though a strike would be more accurate.