You caused a death. Can you forgive yourself?

[Gunny]

By Todd Leopold, CNN
June 22, 2011 8:44 a.m. EDT (CNN)

(CNN) -- Darin Strauss was 18, a month from graduating high school, when he climbed into his father's Oldsmobile and picked up some friends to play miniature golf. He drove in the left lane of a four-lane thoroughfare in Long Island, New York, shooting the breeze, enjoying the watercolored scenery, not a care in the world. Up ahead, on his right, two girls pedaled bicycles on the shoulder.

Suddenly, one of the girls swerved left across the road. Strauss, with no time to react, hit her at 40 miles per hour. The girl -- Celine Zilke, a student at Strauss' high school -- died.

Strauss was exonerated by the legal system. His friends, for the most part, were supportive. But he privately carried around the memory of Celine Zilke's death for decades. After a poor experience with a therapist, who seemed as determined to impress Strauss with his sports car as help him past the guilt, Strauss went off to college and essentially buried the incident except to a few intimates.

"They said I wasn't to blame," Strauss recalls in an interview at an Atlanta coffee shop.

more ... http://www.cnn.com/2011/LIVING/06/22/forgiving.yourself/index.html?&hpt=hp_c2

The answer's no.

[Abbey Marie]

Even though it sounds like he didn't do anything wrong, it is very difficult to forgive yourself for even lesser things, in my experience. And this very sort of thing is following Laura Bush around her whole life.

[Gunny]

Even though it sounds like he didn't do anything wrong, it is very difficult to forgive yourself for even lesser things, in my experience. And this very sort of thing is following Laura Bush around her whole life.

The fact the left are a bunch of maggots that will pick at anything they can disgusts me. The so-called "liberal" buttheads that don't have a problem with skewing an accident make me sick.

When somone gets killed because of you, who do you blame? His Bill-ness was King when it happened to me.

Do I get to blame the left?

[avatar4321]

I could. It wouldnt be immediate. But I think with God all things are possible.

[Gunny]

I could. It wouldnt be immediate. But I think with God all things are possible.

Depends. Depends on how long you spend in denial. THEN you have to deal.

[gabosaurus]

Do I get to blame the left?

Sure, you can blame us for whatever you want. We're used to it. :p

[Gunny]

Sure, you can blame us for whatever you want. We're used to it. :p

Really.

Gee, who else doesn't have any balls? You have to get people with balls to do your dirty work for you. You damned sure ain't got the stones to do it yourself.

You hate us, but when we're gone, who the f- is going to protect YOU?

In other words, STFU. If it wasn't for people like me, you'd just be speaking Russian.

[fj1200]

The answer's no.

Why not? If you're blameless then any guilt you carry is internal.

[Gunny]

Why not? If you're blameless then any guilt you carry is internal.

Spend a lot of time being brilliant n all?

When you can just wipe away the person standing next to you with a quip, it means you don't know jack shit.

You don't want to know what I'm thinking, Mr Marginalizer. I'd surely make a trade for my best friend. Wonder how marginal THAT would be?

[revelarts]

I could. It wouldn't be immediate. But I think with God all things are possible.

Without God I think it's harder, I'm not sure how it's done.
Faith in a God that your convinced can forgive you.
Then transferring that to yourself. becuase God's judgement is better than ours, and Jesus took all of our mistakes and sins on himself. All. And he ask that we cast All of burdens on him.

Yes it's possible.
may have to repeat it.
But yes.
I've had something like that happen to me, not a car accident but , by accident, trying to help, i started a quick snowball to a death.
I'm sure doctors and nurses have to deal with this on some level at different points in their careers.

It's tough but God makes a way out.

[fj1200]

Spend a lot of time being brilliant n all?

When you can just wipe away the person standing next to you with a quip, it means you don't know jack shit.

You don't want to know what I'm thinking, Mr Marginalizer. I'd surely make a trade for my best friend. Wonder how marginal THAT would be?

Well when you put it that way... :rolleyes: Sense != you in this thread.

[Gunny]

Well when you put it that way... :rolleyes: Sense != you in this thread.

Whatcha gonna do when the whiskey ain't working no more ....

[fj1200]

Whatcha gonna do when the whiskey ain't working no more ....

I was going to ask you the same thing but I try not to be rude. Good on you though.

Maybe if I did imbibe every once in awhile I'd know WTF you're talking about and why you're unable to answer my query with anything other than attempts at insult.

[Kathianne]

Whatcha gonna do when the whiskey ain't working no more ....

Some never get to that point of knowing it ain't working and that in order to cope and come to terms, denial is at the root of all things that are not working. Well that and making amends the best you can to those you hurt, simply because they cared about you. You are not alone with that problem, while most don't have the same problem they want to avoid.

I don't know if that makes sense or not, but it's certainly not to trivialize or condescend. That I promise regarding the intentions.

[Gunny]

Some never get to that point of knowing it ain't working and that in order to cope and come to terms, denial is at the root of all things that are not working. Well that and making amends the best you can to those you hurt, simply because they cared about you. You are not alone with that problem, while most don't have the same problem they want to avoid.

I don't know if that makes sense or not, but it's certainly not to trivialize or condescend. That I promise regarding the intentions.

You make sense. ;)

[Gaffer]

Whatcha gonna do when the whiskey ain't working no more ....

You put it aside because it has proved it's of no use to you.

Dwelling on the past will not move you forward in life. What's done is done, you learn from it and move on. Self flagellation won't change anything.

[J.T]

You caused a death.

You caused a death or you blame yourself for something you couldn't control?

There's a huge difference, though some are too pigheaded and too busy wallowing in some sort of masochistic self-flagellation to see it.


"Society isn't good at dealing with people who have something concrete to feel guilty about, or who are dealing with a loss," he says.

And some people aren't good at accepting that things weren't their fault. This is a problem seen in women who miscarry and then go on to question themselves, feeling they must have done something wrong.

[gabosaurus]

Really.

Gee, who else doesn't have any balls? You have to get people with balls to do your dirty work for you. You damned sure ain't got the stones to do it yourself.

You hate us, but when we're gone, who the f- is going to protect YOU?

In other words, STFU. If it wasn't for people like me, you'd just be speaking Russian.

Bullshit.

[Mr. P]

Bullshit.

Okay your right..It would probably be German or Japanese. Geeezzzz Gab.

[Dilloduck]

It has been done so some people must be able to do it. Forgave themselves enough to at least enjoy some things and maybe even be available to others who need a hand.

[Missileman]

The answer's no.

From reading the article, the girl on the bike caused her own death, not the car driver.

Imagine you're driving down a deserted highway in the middle of nowhere, you're driving the speed limit, you're not drunk, and you're paying attention to what's going on around you. All of a sudden, someone who's jumped out of an airplane lands on the hood of your car and dies instantly...are you in any way a cause of the person's death? The answer's no. It's okay to feel bad about what happened, but there's nothing to feel guilty about or to forgive.

[fj1200]

From reading the article, the girl on the bike caused her own death, not the car driver.

Exactly and the title of the thread conflicts with the posted facts, the driver didn't cause the death as implied by the title.

[Gunny]

You caused a death or you blame yourself for something you couldn't control?

There's a huge difference, though some are too pigheaded and too busy wallowing in some sort of masochistic self-flagellation to see it.


And some people aren't good at accepting that things weren't their fault. This is a problem seen in women who miscarry and then go on to question themselves, feeling they must have done something wrong.

And of course we don't live in a society that's SO damned quick to look for someone to point a finger at. Right?


Bullshit.

Y'think?

You and your ilk haven't done anything but suck off the blood, sweat and tears of others since Day One.

And you seem to have relegated yourself to one-word answers and/or stupid pics since last I was here regularly. That lobotomy hurt much?


From reading the article, the girl on the bike caused her own death, not the car driver.

Imagine you're driving down a deserted highway in the middle of nowhere, you're driving the speed limit, you're not drunk, and you're paying attention to what's going on around you. All of a sudden, someone who's jumped out of an airplane lands on the hood of your car and dies instantly...are you in any way a cause of the person's death? The answer's no. It's okay to feel bad about what happened, but there's nothing to feel guilty about or to forgive.

How did I know YOU would come up with some junk like this?:laugh2:

Try to think beyond that personality-less intellect of yours and read into the metaphor. But then ... that's been your problem all along ... you're incapable. You always remind me of Robot from Lost in Space.


Exactly and the title of the thread conflicts with the posted facts, the driver didn't cause the death as implied by the title.

Your post belies your tagline.

[gabosaurus]

Y'think?

You and your ilk haven't done anything but suck off the blood, sweat and tears of others since Day One.



You have always given yourself too much credit.

[fj1200]

Your post belies your tagline.

Nope, and your posts are just further evidence. Someday you'll get there.

[Missileman]

How did I know YOU would come up with some junk like this?:laugh2:

Try to think beyond that personality-less intellect of yours and read into the metaphor. But then ... that's been your problem all along ... you're incapable. You always remind me of Robot from Lost in Space.

The only difference between your scenario and mine is a bicycle.

[Gunny]

I was going to ask you the same thing but I try not to be rude. Good on you though.

Maybe if I did imbibe every once in awhile I'd know WTF you're talking about and why you're unable to answer my query with anything other than attempts at insult.

What query? I can an answer anything you got to say, junior.

[fj1200]

What query? I can an answer anything you got to say, junior.

This one.


Why not? If you're blameless then any guilt you carry is internal.

[logroller]

You caused a death or you blame yourself for something you couldn't control?

There's a huge difference, though some are too pigheaded and too busy wallowing in some sort of masochistic self-flagellation to see it.


And some people aren't good at accepting that things weren't their fault. This is a problem seen in women who miscarry and then go on to question themselves, feeling they must have done something wrong.

I would like to add many have a hard time accepting the things which are outside of our control. Stephen Covey uses a vinn diagram with a circle of influence and a circle of concern; where there is a tendency to focus on those things which aren't in both.The key is to identify those points which are, and accept those things one cannot change- as in the serenity prayer.

[Jess]

Based on the way I was raised, one can be forgiven for anything. But forgiving one's self may be more difficult than asking and finding forgiveness from a higher power. Killing in time of war or to defend one's life or the lives of one's family is acceptable, based on my personal upbringing (Baptist). But whether or not it is "sanctioned" doesn't mean a person can get past it.

In any case, some never seem to be able to move on, perhaps preferring to punish themselves, rather than making the most of the life they have been given. Maybe feeling guilt because they survived and others didn't.

Unfortunately, it ripples out to family and friends around them as well, something I'm sure they never intend to happen. But it does nonetheless.

Each person probably has to answer the question for themselves, as circumstances are different from on to anther situation.

I will say that it is a disheartening and tragic thing to watch someone you love hurt themselves for something that was not their fault, shoulder the blame and guilt that should never be theirs, be unhappy when life could be wonderful and give up the chance that others don't have to live life to the fullest.

[abso]

Never.

Won't kill myself in regret, but i will Never forgive myself, i will always be asking myself, What If I Wasn't There?.

[darin]

Never.

Won't kill myself in regret, but i will Never forgive myself, i will always be asking myself, What If I Wasn't There?.

Would you seek forgiveness from your God?

[abso]

Would you seek forgiveness from your God?

of course i would, who wouldn't !!!

but in my heart i would know it's not my fault, so GOD would forgive me.

the problem here is not feeling that you have committed a SIN, its not that.

even if you know that you did absolutely nothing wrong, would that make you feel better ???, of course no.

in my heart i will know that i did nothing wrong, but also that i have taken someone's life, and that someone may be a mother or a father, so i would feel her children's grief, may be a son or a daughter, so i would feel the grief of his\her parent, that is what will be tormenting me for the rest of my life, but not the religious side.

the one i will be asking for his\her forgiveness, is the father or mother or daugher or son or wife or husband of whoever i caused his\her death, those are the people that we should ask for their forgiveness in such situation, those are the people who would feel grief for the rest of their life, and i would share a part of it and feel responsible for it.

[darin]

of course i would, who wouldn't !!!

but in my heart i would know it's not my fault, so GOD would forgive me.

the problem here is not feeling that you have committed a SIN, its not that.

even if you know that you did absolutely nothing wrong, would that make you feel better ???, of course no.

in my heart i will know that i did nothing wrong, but also that i have taken someone's life, and that someone may be a mother or a father, so i would feel her children's grief, may be a son or a daughter, so i would feel the grief of his\her parent, that is what will be tormenting me for the rest of my life, but not the religious side.

the one i will be asking for his\her forgiveness, is the father or mother or daugher or son or wife or husband of whoever i caused his\her death, those are the people that we should ask for their forgiveness in such situation, those are the people who would feel grief for the rest of their life, and i would share a part of it and feel responsible for it.

By not forgiving yourself, are you carrying the attitude you are greater than your God? If GOD forgives you, yet you don't forgive yourself, are you not telling God he's made the wrong decision in his forgiveness? Are you not in some way placing your view on your behavior as more important than that of his view of your behavior?

[abso]

By not forgiving yourself, are you carrying the attitude you are greater than your God? If GOD forgives you, yet you don't forgive yourself, are you not telling God he's made the wrong decision in his forgiveness? Are you not in some way placing your view on your behavior as more important than that of his view of your behavior?

good point of view, but you missed a point, that we are not GODS, by not being able to forgive, that means that you are weak, GOD is the almighty, with power comes forgiveness, forgiveness is only the attribute of the strong, not the weak, we are just humans, with weak souls, we were created like that, men and women only differ on the oustide abilities, but in the inside we both have Conscience which can't let go, it won't let us forget, we have feelings, fragile feelings, it may differ from one person to another, but of course being hard from the inside is never a good thing, and only someone with hard tough feelings can forgive himself, and i am not that type of person, maybe i am a logical person, so i will know that it's not my fault, but i will blame myself, because if i had decided not to take the car for a ride as an example, that person would be alive right now.

in my religion, GOD tells us that ages are determined, so if someone dies, its because his day has come, be it by one way or another, its just fate, and we don't have anything to do with it, even if i pick a gun and kill someone, it will be my fault, but also for that person, his day has come, GOD already knows when we will die and how.

but not just because i believe in fate i would be able to forgive myself, maybe i would be just a tool of fate, but inside my soul, my heart will be broken and shattered, my conscience will always bear the weight of the grief of the loved ones of whom i caused his\her death.


its just not something that we can forget, it won't cause me to stop studying or wroking or living my life, but each day, i will think about the one that died, how his\her life would have turned out to be, what a great person she could become if it wasn't for me, many thoughts will always cross my mind, and i can't just shut down my conscience or my memories.

[KSigMason]

It would be a scar and would definitely take time, if possible.

[Gunny]

From reading the article, the girl on the bike caused her own death, not the car driver.

Imagine you're driving down a deserted highway in the middle of nowhere, you're driving the speed limit, you're not drunk, and you're paying attention to what's going on around you. All of a sudden, someone who's jumped out of an airplane lands on the hood of your car and dies instantly...are you in any way a cause of the person's death? The answer's no. It's okay to feel bad about what happened, but there's nothing to feel guilty about or to forgive.

Well, I WAS trying to open your mind a little to think bigger picture, but after reading your posts this morning, I forgot the absolute literalist in you just help yourself.


You have always given yourself too much credit.

Hardly. Giving you little to none doesn't equate to giving myself too much. Just giving you little to none.


Nope, and your posts are just further evidence. Someday you'll get there.

To where YOU are? Only if I fall off the ladder.


This one.

I see. So as long as you feel you can absolve yourself of any wrongdoing, and our wonderfully accurate judicial system backs you, then no harm no foul as far as you're concerned?

Interesting. Says a lot about you.

[Missileman]

Well, I WAS trying to open your mind a little to think bigger picture, but after reading your posts this morning, I forgot the absolute literalist in you just help yourself.

The bigger picture being feeling guilty about something for which you have NO responsibility? Sorry, but that picture's WAY out of focus. Anyone haunted by something that wasn't their doing needs to seek counseling...there's something wrong in their noggin.

[abso]

The bigger picture being feeling guilty about something for which you have NO responsibility? Sorry, but that picture's WAY out of focus. Anyone haunted by something that wasn't their doing needs to seek counseling...there's something wrong in their noggin.

or maybe for anyone haunted by something that wasn't their doing then there is something right with their humanity.

what you feel guilty for isn't about what you are responsible for and what you aren't, that is not the issue, our conscience and feelings doesn't work that way.

[SassyLady]

Yes.

However, I would not forgive myself if I didn't step in and try to save someone...my daughter tells me that I will die one of these days because I have a tendency to "get involved".

I cannot side by the side and watch anyone be abused....so I would be unable to forgive myself if someone died because I did nothing...as opposed to forgiving myself because I did try to make a difference and caused a death.

[fj1200]

To where YOU are? Only if I fall off the ladder.

You're rejecting clarity of thought? To each his own.


I see. So as long as you feel you can absolve yourself of any wrongdoing, and our wonderfully accurate judicial system backs you, then no harm no foul as far as you're concerned?

Interesting. Says a lot about you.

You set up this hypothetical and then start to come up with ways that your hypothetical doesn't apply. You're not very good at this are you?

[Gunny]

You're rejecting clarity of thought? To each his own.



You set up this hypothetical and then start to come up with ways that your hypothetical doesn't apply. You're not very good at this are you?

Better than you'll ever be.

Fact. A person is dead. Fact. You or your conveyance are the direct cause of that death. That person is dead as a direct result of you or your conveyance.

None of your what if's, but's, nor and's changes those two facts.

You're not very good at this, are you?

If you don't feel some sense of responsibility/remorse, then you just suck as a person. I don't have to be good at anything to see something as obvious and simple as that.

[Missileman]

Fact. A person is dead. Fact. You or your conveyance are the direct cause of that death. That person is dead as a direct result of you or your conveyance.

The person in your story is dead as a direct result of THEIR actions, not the person driving the car.

I suppose the guy sitting on his couch in his house is to blame for the motorcyclist who crashes into the car in his driveway and dies? Using your logic, the car in the driveway is the direct cause of the guys death, right?

[fj1200]

You're not very good at this, are you?

If you don't feel some sense of responsibility/remorse...

I'm doing just fine because I'm not the one changing the terms of the question. Feelings of "responsibility/remorse" is NOT the same as "can you forgive yourself?" If you can't see that I don't know where else to go with you.

Your original post shows that the blame was not due Strauss.



Suddenly... Strauss, with no time to react...

Strauss was exonerated...

"They said I wasn't to blame," Strauss recalls...

more ... http://www.cnn.com/2011/LIVING/06/22...tml?&hpt=hp_c2

I would probably constantly question myself and what happened and what I could have done differently but the question of forgiving yourself is different. If you don't forgive yourself then two lives will be destroyed and the second one will be on you. So I guess the only question left to ask is Are you Strauss or are you experiencing a similar situation?

[Wind Song]

I would likely carry the burden of that responsibility to my grave.