How defunding Planned Parenthood promotes more abortions

[gabosaurus]

A challenge: See if you are intelligent and astute enough to get through this article in the Austin Chronicle.

http://www.austinchronicle.com/news/2011-04-22/the-war-on-womens-health/

[Nukeman]

Its a nice article on the surface, but you forget the persons ultimately responsible for NOT getting pregnant are the two having sex... Simple if you think about it. The average cost of BC pills is 15 dollars a month. Now if you cant come up with 15 dollars a month than maybe just maybe you shouldn't be engaging is activities that may result in your getting pregnant!! If the individulas seeking abortion after they get "knocked up" can pay for that than they sure as hell could have payed for the BC pill in the first place. The average cost for an abortion is over 500 dollars the average cost for BC pills for a year is 180 dollars a year... Hmm which should the poor person engaging in sexual activity choose......???

Your forgetting a very simple thing here gabs..... PERSONAL RESPOSIBILITY!!!! We all have some just expect others to take care of their problems.

Here in Indiana the Federal Govt is attempting to FORCE us to pay for abortions with state money by threating to WITHOLD all federal monies earmarked for PP and womens health services. All our state ask of PP is that THEY NO LONGER perform abortions!!! We are still paying the lions share of the services at PP but if the Fed has its way we will have to cut ALL money to PP due to lack of funds. Hmm whos fault is that????

[KarlMarx]

See if you're wise enough and astute enough to understand this

Per the 5th Amendment....

"No person shall be.... deprived of life, liberty, or property without due process of law"

Abortion should be unconstitutional on the grounds that it violates the 5th amendment because it deprives persons of life without due process of law. So it follows that funding abortions with tax payer monies of any sort is unconstitutional.

[gabosaurus]

Nukeman, what you may not know is that birth control pills are only available by prescription. Which means women have to visit a doctor to get them. Women who don't have health insurance can't pay the costs required to visit doctors.

You would be surprised at how many women that visit Planned Parenthood with no intention of ever obtaining abortions. PP offers low cost health care to women, much of it need based. Without PP, a lot of women would be unable to obtain birth control. With, as the story says, would lead to more pregnancies and more abortions.

Saying that Planned Parenthood is only about abortion is like saying that the U.S. military's only function is to kill people.

[logroller]

See if you're wise enough and astute enough to understand this

Per the 5th Amendment....

"No person shall be.... deprived of life, liberty, or property without due process of law"

Abortion should be unconstitutional on the grounds that it violates the 5th amendment because it deprives persons of life without due process of law. So it follows that funding abortions with tax payer monies of any sort is unconstitutional.

Its ironic you choose the 5th amendment to support your interpretation because the same was used in Roe v Wade to support the the woman's right to choose. Classic double-edged sword.

[DragonStryk72]

Nukeman, what you may not know is that birth control pills are only available by prescription. Which means women have to visit a doctor to get them. Women who don't have health insurance can't pay the costs required to visit doctors.

You would be surprised at how many women that visit Planned Parenthood with no intention of ever obtaining abortions. PP offers low cost health care to women, much of it need based. Without PP, a lot of women would be unable to obtain birth control. With, as the story says, would lead to more pregnancies and more abortions.

Saying that Planned Parenthood is only about abortion is like saying that the U.S. military's only function is to kill people.

Then maybe they should focus on the preventative, and ditch the abortion? As well, it's horseshit, because there are free clinics in every city in the US where you can get the prescription without a medical plan, not just PP. You make it look like there are no options left at all

And again, you don't seem to mention people taking personal responsibility for their own actions.

[KarlMarx]

Its ironic you choose the 5th amendment to support your interpretation because the same was used in Roe v Wade to support the the woman's right to choose. Classic double-edged sword.
I don't see how you can interpret anything. The amendment is very clear.

[Nukeman]

Nukeman, what you may not know is that birth control pills are only available by prescription. Which means women have to visit a doctor to get them. Women who don't have health insurance can't pay the costs required to visit doctors.

You would be surprised at how many women that visit Planned Parenthood with no intention of ever obtaining abortions. PP offers low cost health care to women, much of it need based. Without PP, a lot of women would be unable to obtain birth control. With, as the story says, would lead to more pregnancies and more abortions.

Saying that Planned Parenthood is only about abortion is like saying that the U.S. military's only function is to kill people.
Gee gabs I never stated the ONLY thing PP does is provide abortions. If as you and others have said, that it is such a SMALL portion of the services they provide, than eliminating that service in order to insure future funds for all other care should be a no brainer!!! dontcdha think??

No shit sherlock you need a prescription, I know of at least 5 physicians whom I know personally who will gladly write a precription for low income women for birth control or even insert IUD's or depoprevaera shots as well guesse what they do it FREE OF CHARGE..

Besides your stuck on BC pills there are a number of other means to prevent pregnancy!!

[logroller]

I don't see how you can interpret anything. The amendment is very clear.

I didn't interpret anything, SCOTUS did.
State criminal abortion laws, like those involved here, that except from criminality only a life-saving procedure on the mother's behalf without regard to the stage of her pregnancy and other interests involved violate the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment, which protects against state action the right to privacy, including a woman's qualified right to terminate her pregnancy. 410 U.S. 113

[gabosaurus]

Merely writing someone a prescription does not pass for health care. Women's health care is a specialized profession.
Yes, there are other ways to prevent pregnancy. But think back to when you were a hormonal randy youth and see what good that did you.
I hope none of you anti-birth control advocates have daughters. I don't know how you would handle having daughters.

[jimnyc]

I hope none of you anti-birth control advocates have daughters. I don't know how you would handle having daughters.

Call me crazy, but just maybe they teach their kids morals, right from wrong, good and bad... Maybe they also teach them about children, the costs and responsibility it comes with. Maybe they sit down with them if they think they are sexually active and go over these things again, and let them know their options as well.

I hope YOU and your kind don't think that abortion and pills are the only way for a teenager to get by.

[gabosaurus]

Call me crazy, but just maybe they teach their kids morals, right from wrong, good and bad... Maybe they also teach them about children, the costs and responsibility it comes with. Maybe they sit down with them if they think they are sexually active and go over these things again, and let them know their options as well.

I hope YOU and your kind don't think that abortion and pills are the only way for a teenager to get by.

Obviously you have no contact with teens at all. They don't listen to their parents that much. They listen to other kids. Girls have a lot of body image issues. They want to be popular. They want to attract boys. And when a cute boy is enticing you, all those talks with your mom and dad go out the window.

Get back to me when your kid knocks up some girl. Then we'll talk.

[jimnyc]

Obviously you have no contact with teens at all. They don't listen to their parents that much. They listen to other kids. Girls have a lot of body image issues. They want to be popular. They want to attract boys. And when a cute boy is enticing you, all those talks with your mom and dad go out the window.

Get back to me when your kid knocks up some girl. Then we'll talk.

I WAS a teen, and didn't knock a girl up because I was taught appropriately by my parents, and I knew what to do and what not to do. It's a shame that you believe you won't need to teach your daughter, that the correct action will be to send her to planned parenthood. That's very sad. I hope you grow up someday and learn to teach and parent instead of allowing others to do the hard work for you.

[gabosaurus]

My parents were 60s hippies. They grew up in the free love era. I knew all about sex and the consequences. But ya know what? I still did it.
Jim, there is a tremendous difference between the time you grow up and now. TV is not Ozzie and Harriett anymore. Kids see sex everywhere they go. There is tremendous peer pressure among teens these days.
I work with kids every day. I work with parents every day.
I talked with a girl a couple of weeks ago. Her parents had been open about sex with her since she was 11. They preached religion and abstinence and the virtues of remaining chaste until marriage. They all went to church together.
Despite all that, she had sex with a guy and got pregnant. Why? She was lonely and wanted a boyfriend.

Sorry Jim, but you are out of touch with the current generation.

[jimnyc]

My parents were 60s hippies. They grew up in the free love era. I knew all about sex and the consequences. But ya know what? I still did it.
Jim, there is a tremendous difference between the time you grow up and now. TV is not Ozzie and Harriett anymore. Kids see sex everywhere they go. There is tremendous peer pressure among teens these days.
I work with kids every day. I work with parents every day.
I talked with a girl a couple of weeks ago. Her parents had been open about sex with her since she was 11. They preached religion and abstinence and the virtues of remaining chaste until marriage. They all went to church together.
Despite all that, she had sex with a guy and got pregnant. Why? She was lonely and wanted a boyfriend.

Sorry Jim, but you are out of touch with the current generation.

The generations changing, IMO, is not what is changing these kids - it is the PARENTING. I would NEVER have knocked a chick up. My sister would NEVER have been knocked up because she was lonely. This was due to parenting. You can deny the effects of parenting, and BLAME peer pressure and the "times" because they have changed.

It's no different than many parents who blame the times changing for why their kids don't have jobs, or don't want to further their education, or that their kids would rather sit in on the computer or cell than go out like we did when we were kids. BULLSHIT - it's PARENTING. My son desires to sit on the computer, or sit all day with his cell, or not want to do his chores - BUT HE DOES THESE THINGS, because as parents, my wife and I have solid routines in place for him and we ensure he stays on the right path. Sure, he does these things sometimes, but not like a lot of the other kids, and sure as shit not everyday and not all day.

EVERY kid/teen/young adult that gets a girl pregnant or gets pregnant themselves - does so out of CHOICE or being too stupid to understand the consequences. It's OUR JOB as parents to make sure they understand and don't make wrong choices.

Most likely, those of us who believe this, and stay with the plan, will most likely prevent a lot of problems and have kids that understand. Those that blame the times, the era and peer pressure of today, are the type who will take the easy way out and send their kids to planned parenthood for extra curricular parenting.

[Abbey Marie]

Nukeman, what you may not know is that birth control pills are only available by prescription. Which means women have to visit a doctor to get them. Women who don't have health insurance can't pay the costs required to visit doctors.

You would be surprised at how many women that visit Planned Parenthood with no intention of ever obtaining abortions. PP offers low cost health care to women, much of it need based. Without PP, a lot of women would be unable to obtain birth control. With, as the story says, would lead to more pregnancies and more abortions.

Saying that Planned Parenthood is only about abortion is like saying that the U.S. military's only function is to kill people.

Abortion is a very lucrative business, Gabby. I knew someone in the business who lived quite a wealthy lifestyle. And he wasn't even the doctor.

Always follow the money trail if you want to identify motive, etc. It won't lead you astray.

[fj1200]

... got pregnant. Why? ... she had sex with a guy...

Fixored for order and proper causation.

[DragonStryk72]

My parents were 60s hippies. They grew up in the free love era. I knew all about sex and the consequences. But ya know what? I still did it.

So what you're saying is that we're now responsible for your bad judgment?

Jim, there is a tremendous difference between the time you grow up and now. TV is not Ozzie and Harriett anymore. Kids see sex everywhere they go. There is tremendous peer pressure among teens these days.

So no teens had sex earlier in our history? I call bullshit here. And where was all this "peer pressure" in the 90s when I went to school? This is New York, if there's gonna be pressure anywhere, it should be most evident in this state.

I work with kids every day. I work with parents every day.
I talked with a girl a couple of weeks ago. Her parents had been open about sex with her since she was 11. They preached religion and abstinence and the virtues of remaining chaste until marriage. They all went to church together.
Despite all that, she had sex with a guy and got pregnant. Why? She was lonely and wanted a boyfriend.

So, again, are you saying that society is supposed to mitigate everyone's bad choices? She had the power to say "no", the power to get a free condom from a dozen local places, to refuse sex without some sort of BC, and by your own words here, she knew better than that, but chose it anyway.

Sorry Jim, but you are out of touch with the current generation.

Fine, then as a member of a more recent generation, I'll step up here.

[Kathianne]

Gabby, I'm with Jim on this one. My kids are your age or younger. None had sex before they could pay for protection. All were out of high school, they saw the connections between responsibility and consequences. I'm not saying that kids don't have sex in middle school and high school, that would be stupid. However, successful young adults rarely do. Most high schoolers have NOT had sex; or at least intercourse.

[gabosaurus]

If it is all about about parenting, what does that say about Sarah Palin? One of her kids got knocked up, another is a drug user.

If you disagree, answer me a few questions: Did you grow up in a two parent home? Were you middle to upper class? Did you go to a ethnically diverse public high school?

More questions: How many of you were virgins when you were 18? How about 21? Did you parents promote safe sex and condom usage? Did they buy condoms for you?

All the weight currently is on girls. Guys pressure them. The media blatantly promotes sex. Guys can't get pregnant. But they still want sex.

You want numbers about teens having sex in high school? Try around 70 percent by the time they get out of high school.
If you are a 15 or 16 year old (the average many girls start having sex), and you get pregnant, what are your options?
In my neighborhood, parents can barely support their families, much less infants. There is little to no low cost pre-natal care, most of it having been cut back or eliminated by cutbacks. You have no future, since you can't get hired for any jobs. The majority of guys that age can't/won't support you.

Most of you are talking out your asses about a subject you know nothing about. Come do my job for a month and you will understand.

[Abbey Marie]

If it is all about about parenting, what does that say about Sarah Palin? One of her kids got knocked up, another is a drug user.
Touche'
If you disagree, answer me a few questions: Did you grow up in a two parent home? Yes Were you middle to upper class? Def. not. Did you go to a ethnically diverse public high school? Somewhat. Our neighborhood sure was.

More questions: How many of you were virgins when you were 18? Me.How about 21? Me. Did you parents promote safe sex and condom usage?No. Did they buy condoms for you? Hell no!

All the weight currently is on girls. Guys pressure them. The media blatantly promotes sex. Guys can't get pregnant. But they still want sex. All true. And I blame the media for a lot, too. Parents can do a lot, but the culture has it's effect, too.

You want numbers about teens having sex in high school? Try around 70 percent by the time they get out of high school.
If you are a 15 or 16 year old (the average many girls start having sex), and you get pregnant, what are your options?
In my neighborhood, parents can barely support their families, much less infants. There is little to no low cost pre-natal care, most of it having been cut back or eliminated by cutbacks. You have no future, since you can't get hired for any jobs. The majority of guys that age can't/won't support you.

Most of you are talking out your asses about a subject you know nothing about. Come do my job for a month and you will understand.

Answers above...

[jon_forward]

I am with jim on this one 110 percent. Poor parenting, the child gets no love or attention at home, they are treated as a liability instead of the great asset that they really are, they seek what is missing from their home life by subjecting themselves to risky behavor,be it booze,drugs,or sex. Falsely chasing what they need the most, a loving caring home. For the record, I grew up in the 60s haight ashberry was roaring, filmore west you get the picture. CONDOMS ARE CHEAP!!!!! come on, 50 cents. any gas station has em. I have children born in 3 decades 3 boys, 1 girl, no knocked up girls from boys, and I havent had to use my gun and shovel because my daughter came home pg. My Mother became very ill while I was still very young, she lingered in the hospital for 7 plus years before passing, my father worked fulltime to support us as best he could. My Grandmother was 78 at that time but still tackled the job of raising TWIN BOYS. I am what I am because of who and how I was raised. to think anything else is total asinine. I aint no saint but I not only thought of the moment, I thought of what would happen if I knocked up a girl. back then CONDOMS WERE A QUARTER. The other side of this dont hold water.

[jon_forward]

And just so you know, my twin brother and I were adopted at birth, my birth Mom was in a bad situation, already 3 youngins with no hope of raising 2 more.;abusive husband. If that situation were to happen today what are the odds that we would be here. we bearly made it anyway,5 lb together, but thats another story. better bring your A game.

[Abbey Marie]

We as parents are responsible for instructing and loving our children to the best of our ability. Instilling morals is key. Teaching our children to be responsible for their actions is key. Having respect for authority and valuing education are key.

With all that, I believe that Gabby has a point about our culture and its effects on society. Hard as we work, and love them as much as we do, we cannot always fight the tide.

Luckily, so far our daughter is doing all the right things, and none of the wrong ones, and she is about to be a Junior in college. But I don't kid myself that all the credit goes to me or my husband. Nor would I feel it was all my fault should she "make a mistake".

As I have sadly said many times here, the amount of sexual imagery and messaging out there is enormous, and can be viewed by kids of all ages. And to those who say, just turn off the TV- take a ride on I-95 in the Philly area and have a gander at the billboards. Try shielding your kids from those. You would have to be Helen Keller to not have it affect you at all.

[hjmick]

I hope none of you anti-birth control advocates have daughters. I don't know how you would handle having daughters.

Funny, I have read this thread, twice, and I have yet to see any post that would suggest any of these people are "anti-birth control."


Unless you are advocating for abortion as birth-control...

[jimnyc]

We as parents are responsible for instructing and loving our children to the best of our ability. Instilling morals is key. Teaching our children to be responsible for their actions is key. Having respect for authority and valuing education are key.

With all that, I believe that Gabby has a point about our culture and its effects on society. Hard as we work, and love them as much as we do, we cannot always fight the tide.

Luckily, so far our daughter is doing all the right things, and none of the wrong ones, and she is about to be a Junior in college. But I don't kid myself that all the credit goes to me or my husband. Nor would I feel it was all my fault should she "make a mistake".

As I have sadly said many times here, the amount of sexual imagery and messaging out there is enormous, and can be viewed by kids of all ages. And to those who say, just turn off the TV- take a ride on I-95 in the Philly area and have a gander at the billboards. Try shielding your kids from those. You would have to be Helen Keller to not have it affect you at all.

I agree, we can never be fully sure we did the right thing, or that our kids will always do the right thing. But I'm willing to bet the parents who teach their kids about responsibilities, respect, honor and morals have less kids that had babies as teenagers and teen sons who knocked up girls.

[jimnyc]

If it is all about about parenting, what does that say about Sarah Palin? One of her kids got knocked up, another is a drug user.

She probably left them to their own devices one too many times. Being a politician, in most cases, will ensure that you aren't always their for your kids. While I like Palin, I'm sure this was the case.


If you disagree, answer me a few questions: Did you grow up in a two parent home? Were you middle to upper class? Did you go to a ethnically diverse public high school? Two parent until I was 11, then it was one parent from there. Middle class. Pretty diverse, but wasn't East LA.


More questions: How many of you were virgins when you were 18? How about 21? Did you parents promote safe sex and condom usage? Did they buy condoms for you? Just before I turned 18!!! :thumb: But I used protection. I wasn't cleaning no damn diapers at 17-18!! A couple more times before I was 21. I was minded enough and responsible enough, but still a guy. It was also with women that were in agreement about responsibility. But yes, we live in a society where there is sex prior to marriage a lot. All the more reason to ensure our kids understand possible consequences and responsibilities. And no, they didn't buy condoms for me. My Dad had me working by the time I was 15 or so and made sure I would buy them myself!


All the weight currently is on girls. Guys pressure them. The media blatantly promotes sex. Guys can't get pregnant. But they still want sex. Guys know to be responsible, or they were raised wrong. If a girl was raised properly, she would probably demand as much. And yes, sex is everywhere and promoted. All the more reason to ensure our kids understand possible consequences and responsibilities.


You want numbers about teens having sex in high school? Try around 70 percent by the time they get out of high school. All the more reason to ensure our kids understand possible consequences and responsibilities.


If you are a 15 or 16 year old (the average many girls start having sex), and you get pregnant, what are your options? You're fucked if that happens and your options are limited. All the more reason to ensure our kids understand possible consequences and responsibilities.


In my neighborhood, parents can barely support their families, much less infants. There is little to no low cost pre-natal care, most of it having been cut back or eliminated by cutbacks. You have no future, since you can't get hired for any jobs. The majority of guys that age can't/won't support you.All the more reason to ensure our kids understand possible consequences and responsibilities. These kids should NEVER be having sex without a condom or the pill, which is easy to free and much better than bringing a child into this world that is already in "trouble".


Most of you are talking out your asses about a subject you know nothing about. Come do my job for a month and you will understand.Says a girl that rambles out all this crap and "assumes" or "predicts" that these kids will have a baby, and then what do they do. And not once did I see you seeing educating responsibility and appropriate protection. Tsk Tsk

[gabosaurus]

Look at the way society is now. We can't teach anything about sex in schools. Parents think if they talk about sex at home, it will encourage their kids to go out and have it.

Birth control is not cheap, nor is it easy to obtain. In pretty much every state, a minor female needs parental consent to obtain birth control. Girls don't want to tell their parents they are having sex.

Many of you (except Abbey, of course) way underestimate the power of peer pressure. If your kid is in their group of choice, and several of the kids are having sex (or smoking, drinking or taking drugs), there is a lot of pressure on you.
Most kids are accepted by their parents. They know that. But they need to be accepted by their friends and their peer group.

Girls in particular have a lot of problems with body image. If you don't look like a model in a woman's magazine, you are subject to criticism. Girls are self conscious about having large boobs, small boobs, any type of fat anywhere, or any physical defect.
In comes guy who says "hey babe, you're kinda fat, but if you have sex with me, it's all cool."

Yes, I mean your kid. He might be sweet, obedient and a great student and role model to most people. But around his peer group, he needs to be accepted, so he is going to look for girls.
You don't see your kid at school. I see your kid at school every day. I know what he/she is like when you are not around.

As that columnist used to say, wake up and smell the coffee.

[jimnyc]

Yep, only you are correct from what you see at school. We are wrong, those of us that were raised that way and didn't have those problems, and those of us raising kids without that problem.

No matter HOW bad it is, it's NOT hard to teach and expect a child to practice safe sex and be responsible. You act like it's SO HARD and almost impossible to simply be a responsible person. That's very sad.

You're acting as if people on here are stating that kids never have sex, and they shouldn't have sex. But you're not even reading. We KNOW the kids will probably have sex - which is WHY teaching them responsibility and safe sex is what we are speaking about. The ONLY possible reason you can give is that "they prefer to have sex without a condom" - and if that's the case, that they simply can't control themselves - then they were naught taught properly about responsibility and consequences.

[Trigg]

Obviously you have no contact with teens at all. They don't listen to their parents that much. They listen to other kids. Girls have a lot of body image issues. They want to be popular. They want to attract boys. And when a cute boy is enticing you, all those talks with your mom and dad go out the window.

Get back to me when your kid knocks up some girl. Then we'll talk.

Nukeman and I have 3 teenagers at the moment, an 18 year old who has not knocked up anyone or had sex for that matter and a 15 year old daughter who wears a purity ring.

Kids who have open and honest relationships listen to their parents, I hope you're able to maintain a good relationship with your daughter as she grows up. Peer pressure can be hard, that it why you TALK to your kids and sit down to dinner EVERY night instead of watching TV.

[hortysir]

Nukeman, what you may not know is that birth control pills are only available by prescription. Which means women have to visit a doctor to get them. Women who don't have health insurance can't pay the costs required to visit doctors.

You would be surprised at how many women that visit Planned Parenthood with no intention of ever obtaining abortions. PP offers low cost health care to women, much of it need based. Without PP, a lot of women would be unable to obtain birth control. With, as the story says, would lead to more pregnancies and more abortions.

Saying that Planned Parenthood is only about abortion is like saying that the U.S. military's only function is to kill people.


My county's health dept. dispenses all forms of birth control (for males and females) based on income.

[jimnyc]

My county's health dept. dispenses all forms of birth control (for males and females) based on income.

Not sure where Gabs lives exactly in Cali, but I thought it wasn't far from LA. I just looked up on the LA County health site and found that you can get services on a "ability to pay" basis and a few places it was free. This is typical throughout all the counties out there and at various agencies linked to as well. I think you'd be hard pressed to find a locale anywhere in the nation where you can't find highly discounted or free service to responsible people instead of advocating irresponsibility and abortions.

[gabosaurus]

Not saying that every high school kid has sex. I know quite a few that would never even think of it. They come from great homes with wonderful parents.

I listed some questions earlier in this thread. Answer them and I will tell you where I think you stand.

[jimnyc]

Not saying that every high school kid has sex. I know quite a few that would never even think of it. They come from great homes with wonderful parents.

I listed some questions earlier in this thread. Answer them and I will tell you where I think you stand.

Not sure who you're replying to, but I already answered your questions, point by point. But please don't think you can properly analyze a person over the internet with a small handful of questions. Every person in every circumstance with any wealth - has the ability to be responsible, educated & have the ability to make decisions that better their lives.

[hortysir]

If it is all about about parenting, what does that say about Sarah Palin? One of her kids got knocked up, another is a drug user.

If you disagree, answer me a few questions:
Did you grow up in a two parent home? Yes
Were you middle to upper class? Yes
Did you go to a ethnically diverse public high school? Yep, 60/40 black

More questions: How many of you were virgins when you were 18? Yes How about 21? 19, actually
Did you parents promote safe sex and condom usage? Yes
Did they buy condoms for you? No, that was my responsibility


Most of you are talking out your asses about a subject you know nothing about. Come do my job for a month and you will understand.

It's not "all about parenting", but it is all about your parents teaching self responsibility.

What *is* your job, Gabs?
:cheers2:

[DragonStryk72]

If it is all about about parenting, what does that say about Sarah Palin? That her daughter acted personally irresponsible. Why would it being Palin's kid change that? One of her kids got knocked up, another is a drug user. Okay, so two of her kids are acting personally irresponsible. It still has no bearing on the expectation of personal responsibility.

If you disagree, answer me a few questions: Did you grow up in a two parent home?Yes, though we all wished they'd have gotten divorced far earlier than they did Were you middle to upper class?No, but why would money matter here? Are poor people less capable of making responsible choices? Did you go to a ethnically diverse public high school? Not public, but yes, ethnically diverse. Again, how are public school children less capable of responsible decisions?

More questions: How many of you were virgins when you were 18? I was managing A/V and Stage Crew, played AD&D, yup, virgin. It would've been longer too, but when I almost 19, my girlfriend got on top of me and took the decision-making point away from me. Funny, but I still managed to wear a condom.How about 21? Did you parents promote safe sex and condom usage? Yes. Did they buy condoms for you? Hell No!

All the weight currently is on girls. Guys pressure them. The media blatantly promotes sex. Guys can't get pregnant. But they still want sex. Yes, we want sex. Nice of you to make women completely incapable of saying no, or controlling their own situation. Men will do almost anything for sex with a girl they like, such as wear a condom if that's a condition of sex.

You want numbers about teens having sex in high school? Try around 70 percent by the time they get out of high school.
If you are a 15 or 16 year old (the average many girls start having sex), and you get pregnant, what are your options? I love how you skip the portion, once again, where they are in any way shape or form responsible, as if every case of sex is clear cut rape.
In my neighborhood, parents can barely support their families, much less infants. Adoption. Many parents in our country are looking to adopt infants, so many in fact that there's a backlog. You can even get a deal so that they cover your medical expenses, since adopting families tend to be in higher income brackets.

There is little to no low cost pre-natal care, most of it having been cut back or eliminated by cutbacks. You have no future, since you can't get hired for any jobs.
Interesting, I'll tell that to the two single moms I work with, or possibly to any of the other single moms I've seen that clearly work. You can get a degree from home these days, so having a kid is no longer the excuse it used to be.

The majority of guys that age can't/won't support you.

Most of you are talking out your asses about a subject you know nothing about. Come do my job for a month and you will understand.

Really? None of the parents here can speak on what it was like to be teens at one point? No one can understand how impossibly broken those people are, so much so that there is simply no choice, we have to fund abortion, because they are completely incapable of making choices, or being responsible?

[Kathianne]

If it is all about about parenting, what does that say about Sarah Palin? One of her kids got knocked up, another is a drug user.

If you disagree, answer me a few questions: Did you grow up in a two parent home? Were you middle to upper class? Did you go to a ethnically diverse public high school?

More questions: How many of you were virgins when you were 18? How about 21? Did you parents promote safe sex and condom usage? Did they buy condoms for you?

All the weight currently is on girls. Guys pressure them. The media blatantly promotes sex. Guys can't get pregnant. But they still want sex.

You want numbers about teens having sex in high school? Try around 70 percent by the time they get out of high school.
If you are a 15 or 16 year old (the average many girls start having sex), and you get pregnant, what are your options?
In my neighborhood, parents can barely support their families, much less infants. There is little to no low cost pre-natal care, most of it having been cut back or eliminated by cutbacks. You have no future, since you can't get hired for any jobs. The majority of guys that age can't/won't support you.

Most of you are talking out your asses about a subject you know nothing about. Come do my job for a month and you will understand.

According to the CDC,46% of high school students had had intercourse. http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/pdf/ss/ss5905.pdf

[Kathianne]

Look at the way society is now. We can't teach anything about sex in schools. Parents think if they talk about sex at home, it will encourage their kids to go out and have it. In Illinois, even in parochial schools they teach about sex. In middle and high school they discuss that teen boys are very prone to wanting sex, with or without protection, not all parochial schools address protection!

Birth control is not cheap, nor is it easy to obtain. In pretty much every state, a minor female needs parental consent to obtain birth control. Girls don't want to tell their parents they are having sex. again, in Illinois public schools students can get condoms in the nurses office. Really. I spoke to both a counselor and the nurse at my kids high school back when. Both said that while they do have some students that come by often, they were mostly those in trouble with school. This IS an affluent area and the teen pregnancy rate is low, so I guess even kids on the wrong track know better when it comes to sex.

Many of you (except Abbey, of course) way underestimate the power of peer pressure. If your kid is in their group of choice, and several of the kids are having sex (or smoking, drinking or taking drugs), there is a lot of pressure on you.
Most kids are accepted by their parents. They know that. But they need to be accepted by their friends and their peer group. Now this is where you are crossing a dangerous bridge. Most kids in trouble, do not know that their parents care or accept them; they look to peers for acceptance-usually a very small group of peers. Kids confidant with their parents love and attention tend to have a larger group of friends, but are not as easily swayed into dangerous behaviors.

Girls in particular have a lot of problems with body image. If you don't look like a model in a woman's magazine, you are subject to criticism. Girls are self conscious about having large boobs, small boobs, any type of fat anywhere, or any physical defect. That's true in many cases, but the dependent sentences following are not necessarily. While many girls, no matter how toned and svelte they really are see themselves differently than they are. While it may lead to eating disorders, it doesn't necessarily lead to other bad choices. It's a problem, but you are mixing problems.

In comes guy who says "hey babe, you're kinda fat, but if you have sex with me, it's all cool." Usually these girls not only have body image problems, but at least one parent telling them they are too fat and unlovable. Again, not a happy home, indeed an abusive home.

Yes, I mean your kid. He might be sweet, obedient and a great student and role model to most people. But around his peer group, he needs to be accepted, so he is going to look for girls.
You don't see your kid at school. I see your kid at school every day. I know what he/she is like when you are not around.

As that columnist used to say, wake up and smell the coffee.

Not most boys fit what you are saying here. Do they desire sex? Yeah, it's hormonal. Those with self-control use it here too, not just for parents, academics, and sports. They either wait or use protection.

[J.T]

Before I read the link, I just want to be sure I understand the claim. These women can fond someplace to get their children killed, but they can't find a condom anywhere but PP, because Walgreen's doesn't exist? Is that pretty much it?

[J.T]

See if you're wise enough and astute enough to understand this

Per the 5th Amendment....

"No person shall be.... deprived of life, liberty, or property without due process of law"

Abortion should be unconstitutional on the grounds that it violates the 5th amendment because it deprives persons of life without due process of law. So it follows that funding abortions with tax payer monies of any sort is unconstitutional.

How, exactly, is 'person' defined?

[J.T]

My parents were 60s hippies. They grew up in the free love era. I knew all about sex and the consequences. But ya know what? I still did it.
Jim, there is a tremendous difference between the time you grow up and now. TV is not Ozzie and Harriett anymore. Kids see sex everywhere they go. There is tremendous peer pressure among teens these days.
I work with kids every day. I work with parents every day.
I talked with a girl a couple of weeks ago. Her parents had been open about sex with her since she was 11. They preached religion and abstinence and the virtues of remaining chaste until marriage. They all went to church together.
Despite all that, she had sex with a guy and got pregnant. Why? She was lonely and wanted a boyfriend.

Sorry Jim, but you are out of touch with the current generation.
So, basically, your argument is that because you were young and stupid, you should be able to kill your child so you don't have to grow up and be responsible?


'I don't wanna grow up, I'm a Toys R Us kid...'

:rolleyes:

[hortysir]

My parents were 60s hippies. They grew up in the free love era. I knew all about sex and the consequences. But ya know what? I still did it.
Jim, there is a tremendous difference between the time you grow up and now. TV is not Ozzie and Harriett anymore. Kids see sex everywhere they go. There is tremendous peer pressure among teens these days.
I work with kids every day. I work with parents every day.
I talked with a girl a couple of weeks ago. Her parents had been open about sex with her since she was 11. They preached religion and abstinence and the virtues of remaining chaste until marriage. They all went to church together.
Despite all that, she had sex with a guy and got pregnant. Why? She was lonely and wanted a boyfriend.

Sorry Jim, but you are out of touch with the current generation.
Judging by this reply, you work as some sort of counselor??

I think we have discovered the root of the problem.
We've put into place a class of counselors that think it's okay to let our kids do whatever they want and there is no personal responsibility for their choices. "If it feels good do it". All the while undermining everything we try to instill into our children
Yes, this generation is much different. But it doesn't have to be so vastly different.
We can have counselors that teach kids that there are consequences for their actions.

The same parents that taught me that buying the rubber is my responsibility are the same ones that taught me the difference between fantasy and reality - fact and fiction.
I grew up watching the scariest and bloodiest movies out there, read every Steven King book in print, and I play the most violent video games I can find.
Not once did I ever get the idea that it would be cool to walk into a school and open fire on a crowded lunchroom or make a pipe-bomb and blow up my algebra teacher's car.

Everybody (generically-speaking) these days wants the i-phone, the huge flatscreen, the SUV with all the latest gadgets.
Problem is Dad can't get all these thing on just his income so now Mom has to get out there and work also.
Meanwhile Junior and Sissy are left at home alone and are exposed to every deviation known to society with no parent around to steer them to the right choices. They're left with nothing but the afore mentioned counselors to fill their collective heads full of even more bullshit, thus leading them in to even more dangerous decisions.

So call me an old dinosaur or a "Fred Flintstone", but my wife doesn't work. Even before she became disabled I didn't allow her to work.
If we can't afford it with my income we must not need it.
Nothing is worth sacrificing my kid's well-being over.
Now all 4 are grown and I have 10 grandkids, none of which were conceived out of wedlock.


I just feel that there rules to this game called life.
If you break the rules there is a fine to pay. No one can pay it for you and no one can absolve you of it.
Yes, abortion is one of these choices that are available. But even that carries it's own consequences, whether it be physical or emotional.

If we could get parents to suck it up and grow the balls to take the reins of their family there wouldn't be a need for Planned Parenthood OR counselors.

[logroller]

When did this become a bash Gabby thread? You all can talk till you're blue in the face about pp public funding, and maybe you'll make a change--but given the gravity of our national debt, pp funding seems to be small fry. Rights and their responsibilities, no arguments here; however i understand freedom to be liberating to all, even those who error in practicing it. Those who get abortions must bear the consquences, and they do.
Arguing you dont like the funding for something merely because you dont support it--poppycock!If we were to premise everything government does with "everybody agrees with...", we would indeed have a small government, probably not one at all. I say, abort away ye'all heathens, the wrath of your actions will materialize. The facts of the matter are-- abortion is legal-period. As legal as a handgun in your home or integrated schools; sure bad shit happens when go against the grain,; but it builds a better society if you embrace it-- rather than villifying it.

[Kathianne]

I didn't see much 'bashing Gabby' going on. Seems most were addressing or restating what she said. She made some claims that didn't quite hold up, though they might in her school. We don't know, she hasn't responded yet.

[Abbey Marie]

When did this become a bash Gabby thread? You all can talk till you're blue in the face about pp public funding, and maybe you'll make a change--but given the gravity of our national debt, pp funding seems to be small fry. Rights and their responsibilities, no arguments here; however i understand freedom to be liberating to all, even those who error in practicing it. Those who get abortions must bear the consquences, and they do.
Arguing you dont like the funding for something merely because you dont support it--poppycock!If we were to premise everything government does with "everybody agrees with...", we would indeed have a small government, probably not one at all. I say, abort away ye'all heathens, the wrath of your actions will materialize. The facts of the matter are-- abortion is legal-period. As legal as a handgun in your home or integrated schools; sure bad shit happens when go against the grain,; but it builds a better society if you embrace it-- rather than villifying it.

Pretty cavalier attitude about a life and death issue.

And what do you mean by "the wrath of your actions will materialize"?
I can't make sense out of that statement.

[hortysir]

When did this become a bash Gabby thread? You all can talk till you're blue in the face about pp public funding, and maybe you'll make a change--but given the gravity of our national debt, pp funding seems to be small fry. Rights and their responsibilities, no arguments here; however i understand freedom to be liberating to all, even those who error in practicing it. Those who get abortions must bear the consquences, and they do.
Arguing you dont like the funding for something merely because you dont support it--poppycock!If we were to premise everything government does with "everybody agrees with...", we would indeed have a small government, probably not one at all. I say, abort away ye'all heathens, the wrath of your actions will materialize. The facts of the matter are-- abortion is legal-period. As legal as a handgun in your home or integrated schools; sure bad shit happens when go against the grain,; but it builds a better society if you embrace it-- rather than villifying it.

Wasn't bashing.
I dislike counselors *almost* as much as psychiatrists.
They position their selves between the kid and the parent, with an obvious bias toward the kid's POV.

:cool:

Please prove me wrong.

[LuvRPgrl]

Obviously you have no contact with teens at all. They don't listen to their parents that much. They listen to other kids. Girls have a lot of body image issues. They want to be popular. They want to attract boys. And when a cute boy is enticing you, all those talks with your mom and dad go out the window.

Get back to me when your kid knocks up some girl. Then we'll talk.

Teens will respond with what we expect from them. Obviously your opinion of what our teens are capable of are very low, your opinion of their capabilities is pathetically low. Maybe thats a symbol of self reflection on your part.

Fact is, many teens, whose expectations of them are raised by their parents, are able to meet those expectations and are capable of exactly what you say our kids are not capable of.

[LuvRPgrl]

My parents were 60s hippies. They grew up in the free love era. I knew all about sex and the consequences. But ya know what? I still did it.
Jim, there is a tremendous difference between the time you grow up and now. TV is not Ozzie and Harriett anymore. Kids see sex everywhere they go. There is tremendous peer pressure among teens these days.
I work with kids every day. I work with parents every day.
I talked with a girl a couple of weeks ago. Her parents had been open about sex with her since she was 11. They preached religion and abstinence and the virtues of remaining chaste until marriage. They all went to church together.
Despite all that, she had sex with a guy and got pregnant. Why? She was lonely and wanted a boyfriend.

Sorry Jim, but you are out of touch with the current generation.

This is so funny, your parents were sixties hippies and there is any wonder why you werent a virgin? Knowing the consequences of sexual activity, and being taught not to engage in it, or being given an example of not engaging in non marital sex, obviously are two different things.

Uh, your example is meant to prove what? I know kids who were taught pre marital sex is ok, but yet have chosen not to engage in it....

[LuvRPgrl]

If it is all about about parenting, what does that say about Sarah Palin? One of her kids got knocked up, another is a drug user.

If you disagree, answer me a few questions: Did you grow up in a two parent home? Were you middle to upper class? Did you go to a ethnically diverse public high school?

More questions: How many of you were virgins when you were 18? How about 21? Did you parents promote safe sex and condom usage? Did they buy condoms for you?

All the weight currently is on girls. Guys pressure them. The media blatantly promotes sex. Guys can't get pregnant. But they still want sex.

You want numbers about teens having sex in high school? Try around 70 percent by the time they get out of high school.
If you are a 15 or 16 year old (the average many girls start having sex), and you get pregnant, what are your options?
In my neighborhood, parents can barely support their families, much less infants. There is little to no low cost pre-natal care, most of it having been cut back or eliminated by cutbacks. You have no future, since you can't get hired for any jobs. The majority of guys that age can't/won't support you.

Most of you are talking out your asses about a subject you know nothing about. Come do my job for a month and you will understand.

If the country were run by firemen, our homes and cars would be 150% fireproof, fireproof would be the focus because firemen all day long see nothing but what fires can cause, they get a distorted view of reality.
Same thing with cops, their lifeview becomes pesimistic because they see only the criminal side of life so much of the day.
Your constant day in and day out dealing with troubled teens would lead to a distorted view of the "average" teen these days and cause you to think many more of them are troubled than really are, and many more of them engage in sex than really do, and many more of them...fill in the blank,,,,than really do.

[gabosaurus]

One thing I have learned about DP over the years is that most of you are excellent parents who love and support your kids. Many of you grew up in two-parent homes and raised your kids in two-parents homes.

My parents were the same way. They were very strict. We had a lot of rules to follow, mostly concerning grades and conduct. Neither of us ever made a grade below a B. We both went to college and earned degrees. Neither of ever got into serious trouble (like getting arrested or whatever).

At the same time, we were rebellious. We associated with a lot of kinds who were not as fortunate as us and didn't have to follow the same rules as we do. Anaheim schools are roughly 25 percent Anglo. We have a lot of problems with gangs and fight a heavy teen drop out rate.

I deal with a lot of disadvantaged kids. We have parents who either try to smother their kids or don't really care about them. We have parents who don't want their daughters to talk with boys. Other parents don't care if boys sleep at their homes.

As a counselor, I do often take my kids' side. Many of them don't have anyone else to talk with. They are either afraid of their moms (or other caretaker) or their mom doesn't care enough.
No one praises these kids. Their parents refuse to help them with their homework, then bitch at them for making bad grades. Overweight moms yell at their daughters for being "fat." Many live without love.

If I was in control, birth control would be free and available to all teens. I have never encouraged a teen to have sex in my life. I had sex when I was 14 and it was the biggest mistake of my life.
The pressure is relentless. Teens see TV shows and movies where everyone is having sex. A lot of popular music is about how awesome sex is. A lot of advertisements have sexual imagery.

That is where body image comes in. Our society makes teen girls feel ugly if they are not slim and curvy. A girl with large boobs is labeled as a "slut" before she even knows anyone. How would you like to be 15 years old and have adults tell you that you have a "nice rack?"

I have heard from a lot of males that they think it is acceptable for boys to have sex in high school. It is just "boys being boys." Some even expect it.
The same males expect their daughters to be pure until they get married. They threaten any boy that touches their daughter with physical violence, without seeing the hypocrisy of their viewpoints.

Teen boys often expect sex out of a relationship. They feel they have to "prove" themselves. Girls often feel they need to comply, since it is "expected." And if they don't, they won't ever get a boyfriend.

We had one 16 year old boys sent to In School Suspension twice for groping girls. His dad was livid both times. His kid had denied it both times, disregarding the fact that others saw it. The boys made good grades, was in ROTC, very respectful to his parents and talked to them openly. So obviously, dad took his side.
You see, what your kids tell you is not always what they actually do. You might have a wonderful open relationship with your kid at home. They are always respectful and never disobey you. But when they are out of your grasp, they are out drinking and having sex.

I have kids tell me a ton of things. Because they know they can trust me to help them while not ratting them out to their parents. I tell kids straight off that if they have broken any laws or rules, I have to report them. But if they just have personal problems or issues, nothing they say goes beyond my office.

Sorry for the lengthy soap box. Sometimes you gotta say what you gotta say. :)

[DragonStryk72]

Look at the way society is now. We can't teach anything about sex in schools. Parents think if they talk about sex at home, it will encourage their kids to go out and have it. Wait, wait, bullshit flag on the play gabs. I was in a catholic school for high school, and even I got taught sex ed, including about birth control.

Birth control is not cheap, nor is it easy to obtain. In pretty much every state, a minor female needs parental consent to obtain birth control. Girls don't want to tell their parents they are having sex.

And boys do? Somehow, again, we manage to procure condoms. Amazing how that works, isn't it?

Many of you (except Abbey, of course) way underestimate the power of peer pressure. If your kid is in their group of choice, and several of the kids are having sex (or smoking, drinking or taking drugs), there is a lot of pressure on you.

Again, show incidence of this, because guess what? Every single person on this board has been a teenager at some point, and have dealt with pressure in our own lives.

Most kids are accepted by their parents. They know that. But they need to be accepted by their friends and their peer group.

Girls in particular have a lot of problems with body image. If you don't look like a model in a woman's magazine, you are subject to criticism. Girls are self conscious about having large boobs, small boobs, any type of fat anywhere, or any physical defect.

And you know what's funny about that? Most guys don't even give a shit. As long as you have the appropriate body parts, we're cool for the most part. That's why there are so many married women who are overweight, have small boobs, whatever.

In comes guy who says "hey babe, you're kinda fat, but if you have sex with me, it's all cool."

Okay, where is this asshole? You keep talking stereotype, casting it all as the guys who are the problem, and you refuse to answer to the point that you are not only not allowing the girls to be at all responsible for their own choices and actions, but seem to almost be against it. At what point did you become a misogynist toward women?

Yes, I mean your kid. He might be sweet, obedient and a great student and role model to most people. But around his peer group, he needs to be accepted, so he is going to look for girls.

Wow, so it has nothing to do with normal teenage hormones? It's all peer pressure that they just can't stand against?

You don't see your kid at school. I see your kid at school every day. I know what he/she is like when you are not around.

And god damn it, if you are not reporting my kid's bad behavior to me, gabs, then YOU are not doing your job. I'm supposed to trust you with my kid, and you say nothing as you see the kid going down a bad path? Yeah, thanks for that one.

As that columnist used to say, wake up and smell the coffee.

Yes, wake up, Gabs. How many times are you telling girls, through words and deeds, that they just aren't strong enough to resist a man? How many times are you making them feel weaker? Because you paint the most bleak picture ever in thread.

[gabosaurus]

And god damn it, if you are not reporting my kid's bad behavior to me, gabs, then YOU are not doing your job. I'm supposed to trust you with my kid, and you say nothing as you see the kid going down a bad path? Yeah, thanks for that one.

If your kid wants to talk to you about their personal problems, they have plenty of opportunity to do so. If your kid would rather talk to someone else about their personal problems, that is why I am there.
Like I said before, I don't allow kids to break the law or school rules and get away with it. But if they are having personal problems, relationship problems or problems in their home life that they want an impartial opinion on, they can come to me and nothing will be said outside my office. That is the way counseling works.

[J.T]

One thing I have learned about DP over the years
2166


No one praises these kids.
Maybe a good place to start is convincing them that children aren't something you throw in a dumpster or dispose of as medical waste? If children have no value, what value can these youth possibly have?




You see, what your kids tell you is not always what they actually do

And the solution is encouraging them that the solution is killing one's kids?

[gabosaurus]

Funny how ConReps define abortion as "killing." How do you kill somebody who hasn't been born yet?
Some believe life begins at conception. Others believe life begins at birth. Chicken or egg?

It would be like if I see someone coming out of a gun shop and ask them "you must be planning on killing somebody." Because what else are guns used for?

But, yeah, I know, guns are legal. Abortion is legal. blah blah blah. Chicken or egg.

[J.T]

Funny how ConReps define abortion as "killing."
Yes, funny that plummeting to the ground after leaping off a cliff would be called 'falling'...


How do you kill somebody who hasn't been born yet?

Since when is 'having been born' part of any scientific definition of 'alive'?

Why can't you people ever be honest?


Some believe life begins at conception.
That's what science says. Also, Earth is round, Earth orbits Sol, and disease is called not by 'germs'. All caught up, now?


Others believe life begins at birth.
And some believe Earth is flat and the center of the universe. We call such people 'fucking morons'- or 'mentally retarded fuckingwits', to be more scientifically accurate.


Chicken or egg?


WTF?! You're really stupid, aren't you?


It would be like if I see someone coming out of a gun shop and ask them "you must be planning on killing somebody." Because what else are guns used for?

Okay, who let Trig Palin play with the computer?

[DragonStryk72]

Funny how ConReps define abortion as "killing." How do you kill somebody who hasn't been born yet?

Okay, so if some bastard came up, a took a bat to your stomach while you're pregnant, they didn't really kill your baby, because it hasn't been "born" yet. It was fine up until that moment, and would have been born had the baseball bat not connected.

Some believe life begins at conception. Others believe life begins at birth. Chicken or egg?

Yup, pretty much. Science states that conception is the point at which the chain of life begins.

It would be like if I see someone coming out of a gun shop and ask them "you must be planning on killing somebody." Because what else are guns used for?

Oh joy, another wonderful false analogy.

But, yeah, I know, guns are legal. Abortion is legal. blah blah blah. Chicken or egg.

The "Chicken or Egg" argument is completely misused here. It's meant in evolutionary terms, as in "did the chicken come first, or the egg?" not which comes first, conception or life? If I went into a cancer ward, and started yanking life support plugs, I would be guilty of murder, because without my intervention, those people would have potentially lived.

[LuvRPgrl]

Funny how ConReps define abortion as "killing." How do you kill somebody who hasn't been born yet?
Some believe life begins at conception. Others believe life begins at birth. Chicken or egg?

It would be like if I see someone coming out of a gun shop and ask them "you must be planning on killing somebody." Because what else are guns used for?

But, yeah, I know, guns are legal. Abortion is legal. blah blah blah. Chicken or egg.

really, really bad analogy.
Now, third tri mester abortions are often illegal, why should it be if you arent killing something? And why can a person be charged with homicide or worse, (homocide, the taking of a human life) for taking the life of a pregnant womans baby, if it isnt alive?

[hortysir]

3 days with no reply = pwned
:cheers2:

[Gunny]

A challenge: See if you are intelligent and astute enough to get through this article in the Austin Chronicle.

http://www.austinchronicle.com/news/2011-04-22/the-war-on-womens-health/

Much easier to just point out that the title of your thread by it's very nature is illogical.

[fj1200]

Much easier to just point out that the title of your thread by it's very nature is illogical.

It's just an acknowledgement of the unseen costs of government action. Whether it's correct is the debate.

[LuLu]

Much easier to just point out that the title of your thread by it's very nature is illogical.

If you don't fund cheap or free birth control, and access to other care you could see a rise in women seeking abortions. ;)
It isn't hard to figure out where she was going.

[logroller]

Pretty cavalier attitude about a life and death issue.

And what do you mean by "the wrath of your actions will materialize"?
I can't make sense out of that statement.

Difference of opinion I suppose; but I consider it a life OR death issue. you can't have both. Not to bring everybody down, but we all die. Call it cavalier if you wish, its merely a statement of fact: some deaths are unwarranted, irresposible even; but I'm not responsible for the private actions of others, only my own--and I respect that and expect the same in return. Please understand---I'm not advocating such behavior, only accepting it as a decidedly personal matter, not of the public interest; thus not enforcable by standing doctrine.

Wrath of one's actions... I meant we all reap what we sow. You do hurtful and irresponsible things-- pain and grief will plague you. Goodwill and love invite happiness and satisfaction. i Didnt' mean to be cryptic:)

[LuvRPgrl]

Yes, wake up, Gabs. How many times are you telling girls, through words and deeds, that they just aren't strong enough to resist a man? How many times are you making them feel weaker? Because you paint the most bleak picture ever in thread.

"And god damn it, if you are not reporting my kid's bad behavior to me, gabs, then YOU are not doing your job. I'm supposed to trust you with my kid, and you say nothing as you see the kid going down a bad path? Yeah, thanks for that one. "

BINGO !!!!

[LuvRPgrl]

; but I'm not responsible for the private actions of others, only my own--and I respect that and expect the same in return. Please understand---I'm not advocating such behavior, only accepting it as a decidedly personal matter, not of the public interest; thus not enforcable by standing doctrine.

:)

So, if your neighbor were beating their kid, and I mean BEATING ,obviously above and beyond what is reasonable, (proper spanking) you would do nothing?

It is exactly that (myob) attitude that led to throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

WHile people should have been more active in stopping others from abusing their kids, say prior to the 70's,. the OVER reaction has now been to even make it illegal to spank your kids.

If adults had been more active in stopping abuse on kids, this over reaction would never have happened.

Without proper spanking (not warranted on all kids) many, many kids will get out of control, note the sudden onslaught of ADHD and the follow up of prescription drugs to children, a consequence of liberal policies, yet the lbs who have instituted and supported these changes in policies, deny any responsabililty,

and instead of attacking the core problem, they prefer to treat the symtoms because attacking the core problem would require them to admit their values regarding spanking and discipline is wrong, which they would never do.

It is the same thing with the PP issue. Instead of trying to reduce unwanted pregnancies, they try to resolve the symtoms by supporting abortion.

Even if it were true that abortions would rise, in the short run anyways, it would force us to look at what the core problem really is, whereas easily obtainable abortion allows us to ignore it,,,,hmmmm, is that what the shadow was trying to say?

Couselors like Gabs refuse to take the high road for several reasons,
lazy, it is easier to say, "go get an abortion" rather than try to teach them values that will prevent pregnancies,

Again, gasp !!!, it would require the libs to admit they are wrong and would require them to re evaluate virtually all of their life values.

It also allows them to circumvent the parents, and thus giving them more power and control, which libs love to have

Having managed little league, I have taken teams that were "suppose" to finish near the bottom and made champions out of them, the truth is, kids will usually only rise to the level that we expect of them, take the majority of kids and if you say "they are goiing to do it anyways", then they will

[Gunny]

If you don't fund cheap or free birth control, and access to other care you could see a rise in women seeking abortions. ;)
It isn't hard to figure out where she was going.

Where she was going was a dishonest argument in nature. Prevention isn't the same as abortion. It's a matter of dishonest semantics the two are tied together.

[DragonStryk72]

So, if your neighbor were beating their kid, and I mean BEATING ,obviously above and beyond what is reasonable, (proper spanking) you would do nothing?

It is exactly that (myob) attitude that led to throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

WHile people should have been more active in stopping others from abusing their kids, say prior to the 70's,. the OVER reaction has now been to even make it illegal to spank your kids.

If adults had been more active in stopping abuse on kids, this over reaction would never have happened.

Without proper spanking (not warranted on all kids) many, many kids will get out of control, note the sudden onslaught of ADHD and the follow up of prescription drugs to children, a consequence of liberal policies, yet the lbs who have instituted and supported these changes in policies, deny any responsabililty,

and instead of attacking the core problem, they prefer to treat the symtoms because attacking the core problem would require them to admit their values regarding spanking and discipline is wrong, which they would never do.

It is the same thing with the PP issue. Instead of trying to reduce unwanted pregnancies, they try to resolve the symtoms by supporting abortion.

Even if it were true that abortions would rise, in the short run anyways, it would force us to look at what the core problem really is, whereas easily obtainable abortion allows us to ignore it,,,,hmmmm, is that what the shadow was trying to say?

Couselors like Gabs refuse to take the high road for several reasons,
lazy, it is easier to say, "go get an abortion" rather than try to teach them values that will prevent pregnancies,

Again, gasp !!!, it would require the libs to admit they are wrong and would require them to re evaluate virtually all of their life values.

It also allows them to circumvent the parents, and thus giving them more power and control, which libs love to have

Having managed little league, I have taken teams that were "suppose" to finish near the bottom and made champions out of them, the truth is, kids will usually only rise to the level that we expect of them, take the majority of kids and if you say "they are goiing to do it anyways", then they will

Actually, only 1 point of argument here: I am ADD, and I got the shit slapped out of me growing up. I do think, though, that there are alot of kids for whom ADD isn't the problem, the teacher is just getting, and the kid in question is then sort of forced into it as a label.

[LuLu]

Where she was going was a dishonest argument in nature. Prevention isn't the same as abortion. It's a matter of dishonest semantics the two are tied together.

True, it wouldn't promote abortions. Planned parenthood mostly like prevents many abortions, though.

[avatar4321]

True, it wouldn't promote abortions. Planned parenthood mostly like prevents many abortions, though.

I highly doubt that considering the first thing they start doing when they know your pregnant is to encourage you to terminate.

[J.T]

If you don't fund cheap or free birth control, and access to other care you could see a rise in women seeking abortions. ;)
It isn't hard to figure out where she was going.

So without PP... finding a condom (or keeping your damn legs shut) is harder than finding someone to kill your child?

If you people spent half as much time looking for an underground network of condom smugglers to avoid unwanted pregnancy when you're whoring around in your imaginary world or latex prohibition as you do seeking out underground networks of serial killers you insist are willing to ram a piece of wire up your uterus and stab blindly until the bloody remnants of your baby spill out onto the floor- you wouldn't need the underground network of serial killers in the first damn place.

Here's an idea: instead of teaching your daughters how to kill their baby's by masturbating with a long, narrow piece of metal, why don't you teach them to stop being sluts and to keep their legs shut and not engage in unprotected sex if they're not ready to be a mom?

I assure you, not taking your pants off isn't very hard. I promise it'll hurt less than stabbing your insides and scooping out half your uterine wall with the dipstick from daddy's car.

[J.T]

True, it wouldn't promote abortions. Planned parenthood mostly like prevents many abortions, though.
Which explains why the abortion rate has dropped significantly every place and time a new abortion store opened up in the area... right?

[gabosaurus]

I am sincerely hoping that JT is not married, or at least does not have any daughters. Because they will have a rough time of it in life.

You are taking a very hard and cynical view of people's lives. I obviously can not explain it here, because you are too far to the right of the line to understand how the other half lives.
The one drawback about obtaining condoms is that the guy has to agree to wear them, and has to know how to wear them properly. That doesn't happen in many cases. If the guy refuses to wear a condom, and the girl has no access to birth control, you have a bad situation.

Some of you show no sympathy for victims of rape and incest. Or just intimidation or peer pressure.
And what happens to single pregnant women, with funding to prenatal programs and health care in general slashed to the bone?
I know, it's not your problem. It's just a political issue for you.

And you know what keeps us counselors in business? Screwed up parents who intimidate their kids with expectations that can't be accomplished.
If you kid has a serious problem he/she needs to discuss, that is why I am there. Often because the kid doesn't believe he/she can discuss it with their parent or guardian. Anything a kid has to say to me is off limits to everyone else.

[J.T]

you are too far to the right

:lol:



The one drawback about obtaining condoms is that the guy has to agree to wear them, and has to know how to wear them properly. That doesn't happen in many cases. If the guy refuses to wear a condom
Then she closes her legs. Problem solved.

Some of you show no sympathy for victims of rape and incest

Wrong. You assholes don't give half a shit about rape victims. If you did, you wouldn't trot them out as little pawns and exploit their suffering to justify the 93% of all abortions that are done for simple convenience.


And you know what keeps us counselors in business?

Abortion. That way you can take one of your two victims and take her money after you've scraped out her insides. If half your bullshit were true, post-abortion counselors wouldn't have jobs.

[LuLu]

I highly doubt that considering the first thing they start doing when they know your pregnant is to encourage you to terminate.

Actually they dont. And I was talking about the fact that many people get their birth control through PP.

[Gunny]

True, it wouldn't promote abortions. Planned parenthood mostly like prevents many abortions, though.

The fact is, abortion by it's very nature isn't "planned" anything and to include it in planned parenthood is dishonest semantics. Twisting damage control after the fact into something planned doesn't get it.

The entire premise of the argument is a bust. Just one more attempt by progressive leftists and feminists to sell road apples as oranges.

[LuLu]

I think it is dishonest for the right to say PP encourages abortions. Have any of you taken a pregnancy test there? No, I have and they didn't encourage me to do anything.
The birth control provide most likely prevents many people from having an abortion. Abortions are less than 5% of their business.
I have received STD screening through them, birth control when I didn't have heath insurance.
You guys shape the view of PP to your liking, so don't pretend liberal are the only ones who did it.
I am also for women's rights, but I am not feminist. I have never even claimed to be one.

[logroller]

So, if your neighbor were beating their kid, and I mean BEATING ,obviously above and beyond what is reasonable, (proper spanking) you would do nothing?

It is exactly that (myob) attitude that led to throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

WHile people should have been more active in stopping others from abusing their kids, say prior to the 70's,. the OVER reaction has now been to even make it illegal to spank your kids.

If adults had been more active in stopping abuse on kids, this over reaction would never have happened.

Without proper spanking (not warranted on all kids) many, many kids will get out of control, note the sudden onslaught of ADHD and the follow up of prescription drugs to children, a consequence of liberal policies, yet the lbs who have instituted and supported these changes in policies, deny any responsabililty,

and instead of attacking the core problem, they prefer to treat the symtoms because attacking the core problem would require them to admit their values regarding spanking and discipline is wrong, which they would never do.

It is the same thing with the PP issue. Instead of trying to reduce unwanted pregnancies, they try to resolve the symtoms by supporting abortion.

Even if it were true that abortions would rise, in the short run anyways, it would force us to look at what the core problem really is, whereas easily obtainable abortion allows us to ignore it,,,,hmmmm, is that what the shadow was trying to say?

Couselors like Gabs refuse to take the high road for several reasons,
lazy, it is easier to say, "go get an abortion" rather than try to teach them values that will prevent pregnancies,

Again, gasp !!!, it would require the libs to admit they are wrong and would require them to re evaluate virtually all of their life values.

It also allows them to circumvent the parents, and thus giving them more power and control, which libs love to have

Having managed little league, I have taken teams that were "suppose" to finish near the bottom and made champions out of them, the truth is, kids will usually only rise to the level that we expect of them, take the majority of kids and if you say "they are goiing to do it anyways", then they will

What if???? What if he were making pipe bombs or just wasting water, when should one be compelled to act? I wouldnt lead to you to believe I would do nothing if someone was being beaten in plain sight. I'm not contending there is no place for law and order; only that there needs to be an overwhelming benefit to intruding on one's personal freedom and abortion doesn't provide such. Same way I believe universal healthcare to be a good thing, but understand the benefits dont outweigh the costs. It tough to accept something as best when your heart says otherwise; but objective criteria needs to be our guide, not something as subjective as morality.

[LuLu]

I think it is dishonest for the right to say PP encourages abortions. Have any of you taken a pregnancy test there? No, I have and they didn't encourage me to do anything.
The birth control provide most likely prevents many people from having an abortion. Abortions are less than 5% of their business.
I have received STD screening through them, birth control when I didn't have heath insurance.
You guys shape the view of PP to your liking, so don't pretend liberal are the only ones who did it.
I am also for women's rights, but I am not feminist. I have never even claimed to be one.Can't figure out how to edit on my iPhone. At least it didn't autocorrect something. Lol

[LuvRPgrl]

The majority of Planned Parenthood's abortion clinics are located in communities with minority populations that exceed the city or state averages. Is this a bizarre coincidence, or is it merely an extension of the eugenic principles that seem to have driven Planned Parenthood's founder, Margaret Sanger, a founder who is documented as saying, "We do not want the word to go out that we want to exterminate the Negro population."

http://www.abort73.com/abortion/abortion_and_race/

VERY INTERESTING ARTICLE

ALSO, "Planned Parenthood was targeted by Civil Rights movement activists in the 1960s and '70s for its involvement in a "black genocide" that had its origins in the early days of the eugenics movement in the 19th century. The film points out that since 1973, legalised abortion has been specifically aimed at the African-American population and has killed more than "cancer, diabetes, heart disease and gang violence combined."

"Every week, more blacks die in American abortion clinics than were killed in the entire Vietnam War. And the largest chain of abortion clinics in the United States is operated by Planned Parenthood."

It quotes Frederick Osborn, a founding member of the American Eugenics Society, who said in 1973, "Birth control and abortion are turning out to be the great eugenic advances of our time."

http://www.priestsforlife.org/articles/3525-abortion-and-contraception-key-tools-in-black-genocide-new-film

[LuLu]

No one is forcing black women to have abortions. Is it voluntary eugenics?

[DragonStryk72]

Not that men are interested in any of this, since men can't get pregnant. It's not their problem.

Okay, I am sick to fucking death of you insulting me, especially given that I do not do the same to you. You are so incredibly prejudiced against men, I just cannot understand it.

Men are interested in child birth and pregnancy. I am a Man, I can speak on more authority on the subject than you can. Every single man I know, single, married, with kids, or without, talks about childbirth at some point. Some men don't want to have kids, other men do want to have kids, other men aren't sure just yet. Pretty much every man out there thinks about, but men don't see it the same way you do. Clearly, from your perspective it means we don't give a shit. I'm sure your dad would be fucking thrilled to know how little he cared for you, because you weren't "his" problem.

When men think about pregnancy and childbirth, we think about the following:

1) Shelter: Where is the child going to sleep? Is our current place big enough, or do we have to move? If we do move, is she gonna want more kids? If so, should we just get a bigger place now?

2) Food: How are we gonna feed this kid? Is she gonna breastfeed, or are we gonna need formula?

3) Clothing: Girl or Boy clothes? How much ahead do we need? Are we going cloth or disposable diapers? God I hope it's disposables. Maybe I should get one of those diapers genies.

4) Health: Okay, she needs to be taken care through this. That means we'll need to get her food... and pillows. We'll need to check and see if she needs more pillows. Lots of pillows.

5) Toys: Ooh, look, cars. (Basically, we'll sort of lean kids toward whatever we're into, or figure a boy or girl would like, respectively)

No, we do not think of it in the same manner as a woman, but then, the child isn't growing inside of us, so it becomes our "job", our problem becomes the physical care of the mother and child. Are there douchebags out there? Of course, but I don't judge you by the actions of a small minority of women. Grow up, gabs.

[gabosaurus]

Mr. DS, surely you misunderstand. I have already excluded members of the board from what I am saying. I am referring primarily to men who see women and children as objects.
I talk to kids every day who see girls as someone who can satisfy their hormonal urges. They never think of pregnancy. If it does occur, it is usually the guys that rush out the abortion card.
Then there are the men who want sex and not kids. Or the men who decide they want out of a relationship and the kids that go with it. Compare the number of deadbeat dads with deadbeat moms.

I assure you that I love men so much, I married one.

[LuvRPgrl]

No one is forcing black women to have abortions. Is it voluntary eugenics?

Never said they are. But many of those who support legal abortion, only do so because of what it is doing to the black community, whether the women are forced to or not.

I would be willing to bet $1,000.00 to your dime that "Hog Trash"
would support legal abortion for this one simple reason

[gabosaurus]

I would be willing to bet $1,000.00 to your dime that "Hog Trash"
would support legal abortion for this one simple reason

I would be willing to bet that Hog Trash has already paid for a few. :p

[LuvRPgrl]

Not sure where Gabs lives exactly in Cali, but I thought it wasn't far from LA. I just looked up on the LA County health site and found that you can get services on a "ability to pay" basis and a few places it was free. This is typical throughout all the counties out there and at various agencies linked to as well. I think you'd be hard pressed to find a locale anywhere in the nation where you can't find highly discounted or free service to responsible people instead of advocating irresponsibility and abortions.

Huntington Beach is in Orange county, the first county south of LA county. It is about 30-35 miles south of downtown LA.
But more important is that Long Beach, a huge city of over 200,000, maybe more, is in LA county and is only a 10 to 20 minute drive up the freeway from HB

[LuLu]

Never said they are. But many of those who support legal abortion, only do so because of what it is doing to the black community, whether the women are forced to or not.

I would be willing to bet $1,000.00 to your dime that "Hog Trash"
would support legal abortion for this one simple reason

So? Those few people are not Planned Parenthood. I am sure people believe in lynching black people still, should we stop selling rope?
This argument is brought up every time, but it only works if they are being forced to have an abortion.

[J.T]

I think it is dishonest for the right to say PP encourages abortions.

Let's ask Ms. Sanger why PP exists in the first place...



The birth control provide most likely prevents many people from having an abortion.

And, of course, it's impossible to buy a condom at Wal-Mart or fill a script at Wal-greens or CVS, right?[QUOTE]

[LuvRPgrl]

. Clearly, from your perspective it means we don't give a shit. I'm sure your dad would be fucking thrilled to know how little he cared for you, because you weren't "his" problem.

.

Great post, but the part above is particularly ripe, thanks for that !!!!

[J.T]

No one is forcing black women to have abortions. Is it voluntary eugenics?
Did Lulu just endorse efforts to convince black women to kill their babies in the hope the races goes extinct? Did she really just give a nod of approval to PP mission of racial extermination?

[J.T]

No one is forcing black women to have abortions. Is it voluntary eugenics?
99% of the time, when it comes to abortion, nobody forced the slut to open her legs. This according to the abortion industry.

Interesting that women can determine whether or not to kill their baby but can't be held responsible for the decision to create that child in the first place.

[LuLu]

Let's ask Ms. Sanger why PP exists in the first place...



And, of course, it's impossible to buy a condom at Wal-Mart or fill a script at Wal-greens or CVS, right?[QUOTE]

Who writes that prescription? People go to planned parenthood because it is cheap or free. When I was ondyne shoto, I didn't have health insurance and I was able to get my shots for very cheap. So you are willing to deny people cheap birth control and other medical care, because 2% or something get abortions? Which are not funded by the federal gov't.

[LuLu]

99% of the time, when it comes to abortion, nobody forced the slut to open her legs. This according to the abortion industry.

Interesting that women can determine whether or not to kill their baby but can't be held responsible for the decision to create that child in the first place.

So 99% of women who have abortions are sluts? You have warped view of women and the world JT.

[J.T]

So 99% of women who have abortions are sluts? You have warped view of women and the world JT.

93% of abortions are done for simple convenience.

One-third of abortion sales are repeat business.

99% of those killing their babies consented to fucking.

[J.T]

• The "hard cases" of the mother's life, rape and incest, and fetal deformities (negative eugenics) account for only about 0.69 percent of all abortions in the United States each year. This means that 99.31 percent of all abortions are committed "to save the mother's lifestyle" (actual reasons the aborting mothers give are in the next section, and they confirm these numbers).


• Abortion is nothing more nor less than a convenient cover-up for premarital sex, because more than 80 percent of all mothers getting abortions are unmarried. More than half of all women who abort have no other children.


• The widespread availability of contraception does not, as sex educators and school-based clinic advocates assert, lead to decreased abortions, because 56.1 percent of all women who abort were using contraception when they conceived.


• Millions of women use abortion as birth control in the United States. Nearly half of women who abort were not using any kind of contraception when they became pregnant; more than half of all women who abort have had abortions before; and one in nine of women who abort have had at least three abortions before.



http://www.hli.org/index.php/cloning/548?task=view

A day in the life of a female Democrat:
-Wake up
-Check mail for gov't check
-go to gas station to buy bread w/ food stamps
-smoke some marijuana
-have sex with not less that three strangers on the way to the abortion store
-buy an abortion because learning to use condoms, let alone using the ill, an IUD, or anything else, would requite being smart enough to plan ahead; this is the seventh abortion purchased
-go home
-some some more marijuana
-complain about not having a job
-call everyone over for a mass orgy with no prophylactics
-yell verses from The Feminine Mystique out the window and complain about how the patriarchal society treats women like they're too stupid to be responsible for themselves
-Go online to defend my the need for abortion stores because women are too stupid to be responsible for themselves and talk on DU about how to get our cat to vote for Obama in 2012
-some more marijuana and fall sleep

[LuLu]

93% of abortions are done for simple convenience.

One-third of abortion sales are repeat business.

99% of those killing their babies consented to fucking.

So by this you are judging they are sluts?

[Abbey Marie]

What if???? What if he were making pipe bombs or just wasting water, when should one be compelled to act? I wouldnt lead to you to believe I would do nothing if someone was being beaten in plain sight. I'm not contending there is no place for law and order; only that there needs to be an overwhelming benefit to intruding on one's personal freedom and abortion doesn't provide such. Same way I believe universal healthcare to be a good thing, but understand the benefits dont outweigh the costs. It tough to accept something as best when your heart says otherwise; but objective criteria needs to be our guide, not something as subjective as morality.

Speaking of subjective standards, how can we let anyone else decide what is an overwhelming benefit? The majority? They are misled, and most are just stupid.

[LuvRPgrl]

So 99% of women who have abortions are sluts? You have warped view of women and the world JT.

It depends on one's definition of "slut", which has changed radically. I know in the 70's I was in high school and graduated in 74 (kinda) and there were a lot of girls who were total sluts, but they always managed top find one girl who was worse than they were and they thought "she" sleeps around more than I do, she is a slut, but I'm not.

So, what constitutes a slut? How many men does a woman have to sleep with to make her a slut? This is an honest question to you, do you have an answer?

[gabosaurus]

93% of abortions are done for simple convenience.

One-third of abortion sales are repeat business.

99% of those killing their babies consented to fucking.

You gotta be out of your head. Those are totally bogus numbers and you know it. Please tell me you are single. No woman alive deserves to be attached to someone who is so incredibly fucked up.

[LuvRPgrl]

93% of abortions are done for simple convenience.

One-third of abortion sales are repeat business.

99% of those killing their babies consented to fucking.

MAKING LOVE
HAVING SEX/SEXUAL INTERCOURSE
FUCKING

"Making love" is sugar coating it
"Fucking" is inflamatory
"Having sex" is accurate

I would prefer to keep the discussion civil until someone passes a personal insult against me, then its gloves off, although I often give them 2 or three shots before I take the gloves off.

[gabosaurus]

MAKING LOVE
HAVING SEX/SEXUAL INTERCOURSE
FUCKING

I would prefer to keep the discussion civil until someone passes a personal insult against me, then its gloves off, although I often give them 2 or three shots before I take the gloves off.

You can't have a civil discussion with a fucking idiot. :p

[LuvRPgrl]

Speaking of subjective standards, how can we let anyone else decide what is an overwhelming benefit? The majority? They are misled, and most are just stupid.

which is why organizations like PP should be solely funded by private donations.
As taxes go up, and govt gets bigger and more involved in "social policies" helping "the poor", donations to charities goes down.
The govt loves it cuz it gives them more power and control,
However, when that occurs, the level of service actually goes down, you get less bang for your buck.
The people receiving it, when it came from charities, they were grateful, cuz they reallized it was a gift, when it comes from the govt, it makes them feel entitled and not grateful, in fact, angry they dont get more. They become to expect it and become dependent on it, whereas with charities they always worked to get off of the help.
Charities are mostly Christian based, which is why most libs (even those who falsely claiim to be Christians) oppose them having power and prefer the govt to take care of the people who need it.

Then, when the govt is funding the organizations, the minority have control over them and dictate policy. For example, Texas didnt want seat belt laws.

But the feds wanted them to have seat belt laws, but Texas told them to buzz off. Suddenly the usual funding coming from the FEDERAL DEPT OF TRANSPORTATION, dried up. Then Texas passed a seat belt law, and funding started flowing again.

We send our money to DC so they can send it back to us, or at least about 40% of it back to your state, but now they tell you how you can spend it, and its mostly the minority politically correct liberals who dictate what it is spent on, as conservatives are viewed as evil and cant stand up to the liberals.

What income taxes have done is open up a pandoras box where the majority of people on my block hold me down, take my wallet, remove my money and spend it on their pet programs. Where does it end?

Its considered unconstitutional to fund a program that wants to teach kids that the Bible says its wrong to lie, steal and murder, but its also unconstitutional for me to try to refuse to pay for another woman murdering her own baby

It is suppose to be the highest priority of the govt to take care of those who are the weakest. The weakest should get the most "protection", and as the scale goes up, people who need less protection, should receive less.

Its all fine and good starting with newborns, but the unborn child, who needs protection the MOST, receives virtually none.

The govt does more to protect and endangered moth species, than it does for an unborn human being child.

These are reasons the govt should only be involved in activities that can in no way be done by private individual companies, such as building roads.

OUCCCHHHHH, thats

[LuvRPgrl]

Speaking of subjective standards, how can we let anyone else decide what is an overwhelming benefit? The majority? They are misled, and most are just stupid.

which is why organizations like PP should be solely funded by private donations.
As taxes go up, and govt gets bigger and more involved in "social policies" helping "the poor", donations to charities goes down.
The govt loves it cuz it gives them more power and control,
However, when that occurs, the level of service actually goes down, you get less bang for your buck.
The people receiving it, when it came from charities, they were grateful, cuz they reallized it was a gift, when it comes from the govt, it makes them feel entitled and not grateful, in fact, angry they dont get more. They become to expect it and become dependent on it, whereas with charities they always worked to get off of the help.
Charities are mostly Christian based, which is why most libs (even those who falsely claiim to be Christians) oppose them having power and prefer the govt to take care of the people who need it.

Then, when the govt is funding the organizations, the minority have control over them and dictate policy. For example, Texas didnt want seat belt laws.

But the feds wanted them to have seat belt laws, but Texas told them to buzz off. Suddenly the usual funding coming from the FEDERAL DEPT OF TRANSPORTATION, dried up. Then Texas passed a seat belt law, and funding started flowing again.

We send our money to DC so they can send it back to us, or at least about 40% of it back to your state, but now they tell you how you can spend it, and its mostly the minority politically correct liberals who dictate what it is spent on, as conservatives are viewed as evil and cant stand up to the liberals.

What income taxes have done is open up a pandoras box where the majority of people on my block hold me down, take my wallet, remove my money and spend it on their pet programs. Where does it end?

Its considered unconstitutional to fund a program that wants to teach kids that the Bible says its wrong to lie, steal and murder, but its also unconstitutional for me to try to refuse to pay for another woman murdering her own baby

It is suppose to be the highest priority of the govt to take care of those who are the weakest. The weakest should get the most "protection", and as the scale goes up, people who need less protection, should receive less.

Its all fine and good starting with newborns, but the unborn child, who needs protection the MOST, receives virtually none.

The govt does more to protect and endangered moth species, than it does for an unborn human being child.

These are reasons the govt should only be involved in activities that can in no way be done by private individual companies, such as building roads.

OUCCCHHHHH, thats me stubbing my toe getting off the soap box. ")

[J.T]

You gotta be out of your head. Those are totally bogus numbers and you know it.

Why can't you people ever be honest?

From Guttmachter:

Woman is concerned about how having a baby could change her life 16%
Think she'll be inconvenienced
Woman can't afford baby now 21%
inconvenient financial burden
Woman has problems with relationship or wants to avoid single parenthood 12%
afraid baby will be inconvenient burden when she wants to pursue career/go out and party
Woman is unready for responsibility 21%
straight inconvenience; doesn't want to grow the fuck up
Woman doesn't want others to know she has had sex or is pregnant 1%
revealing that she is sexually active would be a social inconvenience
Woman is not mature enough, or is too young to have a child 11%
doesn't want to grow up and be responsible for her actions; inconvenience
Woman has all the children she wanted, or has all grown-up children 8%
another baby would be an inconvenience
Husband or partner wants woman to have an abortion 1%
baby would be inconvenient as she got knocked up by the wrong dude
Fetus has possible health problem 3%
Woman has health problem 3%
Woman's parents want her to have abortion <1%
Woman was victim of rape or incest 1%
Just over 7%
Other 3%

http://www.pregnantpause.org/numbers/whyabort.htm

[J.T]

Here's a more recent study from the same pro-abortion source.

Rape/Incest victims are still a tiny majority exploited by the abortion industry.

Was a victim of rape 1%
Became pregnant as a result of incest <0.5%
More started claiming health problems (no way to tell how much reflects an actual skyrocketing of health concerns in pregnancy or how many of them result from damage caused by prior abortions)


Possible problems affecting the health of the fetus 13%
Physical problem with my health 12%http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/3711005.pdf

Assuming zero overlap among these 'dire cases' (that is, if none of the cases were a danger to both mother and child, as is the case with ectopic pregnancies that fail to self-terminate) that still leaves no less than 73.5% of abortions being performed for convenience.

[LuvRPgrl]

You can't have a civil discussion with a fucking idiot. :p

Dude is not an idiot. I just think some get a little too emotional too soon, course my point of trying to not use the FUCK term quite so easily, seems to have escaped you. Plus I brought it up as a friend to him, people give U more credibility if you dont throw terms like that around too easily

[logroller]

I was just reminded of something and thought it was worth asking; from a policy standpoint, are family planning services best fulfilled through public provision? I mean, compare family planning to something like roads; is there a sufficient lack of service availability or free-ridership that exists? I don't think there is. Really this is an issue which piggybacks on welfare services in general, Obamacare specifically, and not abortion. Take away the heat from the abortion issue and it seems quite clear, as ruled by SCOTUS, family planning options are inherently a personal choice, one which government has no interest in forbidding or promoting; therefore it should have no hand in its provision-- only it's regulation like any other medical service.

[LuLu]

It depends on one's definition of "slut", which has changed radically. I know in the 70's I was in high school and graduated in 74 (kinda) and there were a lot of girls who were total sluts, but they always managed top find one girl who was worse than they were and they thought "she" sleeps around more than I do, she is a slut, but I'm not.

So, what constitutes a slut? How many men does a woman have to sleep with to make her a slut? This is an honest question to you, do you have an answer?
NO, I don't have an answer. We should ask JT, he seems to be the expert.
I had a friend who was a senior in high school, only had sex with one person and had an abortion. Is she a slut?

[LuLu]

You gotta be out of your head. Those are totally bogus numbers and you know it. Please tell me you are single. No woman alive deserves to be attached to someone who is so incredibly fucked up.

He also thinks parents who drop their kid off at the library for story time are bad parents. ;)

[Abbey Marie]

NO, I don't have an answer. We should ask JT, he seems to be the expert.
I had a friend who was a senior in high school, only had sex with one person and had an abortion. Is she a slut?

Was the guy a slut? ;)

[LuLu]

Was the guy a slut? ;)

He actually was. Lol

[Gunny]

I think it is dishonest for the right to say PP encourages abortions. Have any of you taken a pregnancy test there? No, I have and they didn't encourage me to do anything.
The birth control provide most likely prevents many people from having an abortion. Abortions are less than 5% of their business.
I have received STD screening through them, birth control when I didn't have heath insurance.
You guys shape the view of PP to your liking, so don't pretend liberal are the only ones who did it.
I am also for women's rights, but I am not feminist. I have never even claimed to be one.

The right does not say PP encourages abortions. That is what the left SAYS the right say.

The right says abortion is wrong and should not be provided; especially, at taxpayer expense except out of medical necessity.

Medical necessity does NOT = personal convenience to avoid the consequences of ones irresponsible actions.

[Jess]

What about women who go to PP because they are responsible but have little or no money for birth control? If funding gets cut, they either risk unplanned pregnancies or forced celibacy.

Neither of those is very appealing, IMO.

[LuLu]

I was referring to Avatar who implied they did, along with the others who said Some might want to use it for Eugenics.

[LuLu]

Post 68 is what I was referring to. He isn't the only right winger I have ever seen say this. It is dishonest, and I know it isn't true.

[LuLu]

What about women who go to PP because they are responsible but have little or no money for birth control? If funding gets cut, they either risk unplanned pregnancies or forced celibacy.

Neither of those is very appealing, IMO.

I know that avatar. :)

[Jess]

I know that avatar. :)

I get around, LuLu. :cool:

[LuLu]

I get around, LuLu. :cool:

Me too. We must be these sluts JT is referring to. :)

[gabosaurus]

Dang those male sluts anyway...

[logroller]

What about women who go to PP because they are responsible but have little or no money for birth control? If funding gets cut, they either risk unplanned pregnancies or forced celibacy.

Neither of those is very appealing, IMO.

I'm not sure these women are what most would consider responsible. If you have a balanced checkbook, but don't pay your bills-- that's not being responsible.

My wife has been working a new job and hasnt been up for relations-- talk about forced celibacy:laugh: ANd she gets birthcontrol though her job's insurance--a bit of a catch 22.

There's always :suck: - which I find appealing! besides - Condoms are cheap.

http://www.drugstore.com/durex-tin-containing-48-assorted-condoms-3-free-vibrating-rings/qxp158391
a link for 48 with three vibrating rings for 20 bucks. If you can't afford 20 bucks for however long it takes to use 48 condoms you really need to evaluate your lifestyle choices, not expect others to foot the billl.


From a policy standpoint, it sounds like a personal problem, not a public one.
I need new tires on my car. and I mean NEED. Should govt provide them? My alternative is walking, riding my bike or taking the bus-- not very appealing, IMHO.

[logroller]

Dang those male sluts anyway...

that just seems redundant. I know only one guy who wants sex less than he is offered it by his woman-- and he's the biggest (male) slut I know, just less so than her:laugh::laugh::laugh:

[Kathianne]

Not most boys fit what you are saying here. Do they desire sex? Yeah, it's hormonal. Those with self-control use it here too, not just for parents, academics, and sports. They either wait or use protection.

Did Gabby ever respond to the original of this? If so, I missed it. I just don't have time to wade through all the 118 now on here.

[Gunny]

What about women who go to PP because they are responsible but have little or no money for birth control? If funding gets cut, they either risk unplanned pregnancies or forced celibacy.

Neither of those is very appealing, IMO.

I take no issue with "Planned Parenthood" that provides medical assistance, counseling and/or PROACTIVE (planned) means of contraception to people who cannot otherwise afford it.

I DO take issue with earmarking abortion into Planned Parenthood. There's nothing "planned" nor "parenthood" about abortion.

It's damage control after the fact.

[LuLu]

that just seems redundant. I know only one guy who wants sex less than he is offered it by his woman-- and he's the biggest (male) slut I know, just less so than her:laugh::laugh::laugh:

You know my boyfriend?:uhoh:

[LuLu]

I take no issue with "Planned Parenthood" that provides medical assistance, counseling and/or PROACTIVE (planned) means of contraception to people who cannot otherwise afford it.

I DO take issue with earmarking abortion into Planned Parenthood. There's nothing "planned" nor "parenthood" about abortion.

It's damage control after the fact.

Abortions can't be funded by the federal government. ;)
And of course abortions are not planned. Women don't say to themselves, " Wow, I think I will have an abortion this year."
Life happens, and sometimes one feels they have no other choice because of many reasons. I know some women have them more than once, and have abortions for petty reasons, but some of them because they don't know what else to do. ;)

[gabosaurus]

Did Gabby ever respond to the original of this? If so, I missed it. I just don't have time to wade through all the 118 now on here.

A lot of them do. But being a counselor is like being an administrator. You rarely meet the good kids, because they don't have problems. I hear the horror stories. I meet the boys who think they are entitled.
Are they the majority of all high school boys? Probably not. Are they the majority of boys I come across? Yes.

And it doesn't help that there are so many helicopter parents these days. That is the one change from when I was growing up.

[LuvRPgrl]

A lot of them do. But being a counselor is like being an administrator. You rarely meet the good kids, because they don't have problems. I hear the horror stories. I meet the boys who think they are entitled.
Are they the majority of all high school boys? Probably not. Are they the majority of boys I come across? Yes.

And it doesn't help that there are so many helicopter parents these days. That is the one change from when I was growing up.

The attitude appears to have changed from parents teaching kids to "respect their elders/authority figures" to "my kid has rights and you have no right to discipline them, that is my job, (even though I don't do it)

The schools used to be an extension of the home, helping to enforce certain values that the parents used to want taught.

Today, the liberals have destroyed that, and then they wonder why kids "will have sex no matter what" along with all of the other bad behavior kids exhibit today that they didn't in the past,
COLUMBINE anyone?
We never had to have metal detectors in school, or lawsuits
Its a different world, and far much more for the worse overall.

[LuLu]

The attitude appears to have changed from parents teaching kids to "respect their elders/authority figures" to "my kid has rights and you have no right to discipline them, that is my job, (even though I don't do it)

The schools used to be an extension of the home, helping to enforce certain values that the parents used to want taught.

Today, the liberals have destroyed that, and then they wonder why kids "will have sex no matter what" along with all of the other bad behavior kids exhibit today that they didn't in the past,
COLUMBINE anyone?
We never had to have metal detectors in school, or lawsuits
Its a different world, and far much more for the worse overall.

Blaming Columbine on liberals? :laugh:
You are doing the very thing you are bitching about.

I am a liberal, and have no problem with other people disciplining my child. Don't confuse liberals realizing that teenagers have sex, with teenagers thinking they have to have sex. Take your own advice and blame the parent. I also remember many conservatives having a problem with the title of Hilary's book. I guess it does take a village to raise a child.
The schools used to be an extension of the home, helping to enforce certain values that the parents used to want taught.

[logroller]

:confused0058:



And it doesn't help that there are so many helicopter parents these days. That is the one change from when I was growing up.

Either I am unaware of the figurative meaning or you live in a very affluent neighborhood?

[LuvRPgrl]

Blaming Columbine on liberals? :laugh:
You are doing the very thing you are bitching about.

I am a liberal, and have no problem with other people disciplining my child. Don't confuse liberals realizing that teenagers have sex, with teenagers thinking they have to have sex. Take your own advice and blame the parent. I also remember many conservatives having a problem with the title of Hilary's book. I guess it does take a village to raise a child.

The conservatives issue with "it takes a village.." was with the idea of organizations other than the family and school helping.

The schools have overwhelmingly been changed and under the control of liberals since the 60's, so, yes, I blame the resulting problems that exist now, but didn't before, to be a result of liberalism.

LAUSD, I think is the largest school district in the nation. About 1/3 don't graduate, and about 1/2 of those who do can't properly read and write, much less do any math, geography or history. They have dumbed down the kids and the kids wind up in jobs that dont require thinking other than how to operate a machine.

Like when I pay for something that costs $6.11, I pull out a $10 bill, then the cashier puts in that amount in the "memory/calculator" of the register, but then I pull out .11 cents, and the cashier more times than

not these days, has a puzzled look on their face and don't know what to do except cancel the first transaction and enter "received $6.11" because they cant do basic math and figure out how much change to give, they are completely DEPENDENT on the machine doing the work.

Even many of the registers now have pictures or icons instead of words.

Its a total joke. There have been studies where they ask recent high school grads some basic ;questions, like, when did we declare independence, and from whom? In my day, if you didn't know answers to such simple questions you didnt graduate. Today, a majority of high school grads can't answer both parts of that question correctly.

Its a simple association,,,,schools changed, got more liberal, the symtoms of problems changed, due to the changes in school policies for the most part. Like counselors taking the attitude "they are going to do it anyways, so we might as well teach them how"

[Gunny]

Abortions can't be funded by the federal government. ;)
And of course abortions are not planned. Women don't say to themselves, " Wow, I think I will have an abortion this year."
Life happens, and sometimes one feels they have no other choice because of many reasons. I know some women have them more than once, and have abortions for petty reasons, but some of them because they don't know what else to do. ;)

I didn't say "funded by the federal government". I said funded at taxpayer expense. Federal taxes aren't the only taxes, just one of many, and social programs by their very nature are funded by taxes.

They have a choice. They have a choice BEFORE they engage in irresponsible sexual activity. Planned Parenthood is there BEFORE they get knocked up, with counseling, and a variety of contraceptive methods.

[Abbey Marie]

Abortions can't be funded by the federal government. ;)
And of course abortions are not planned. Women don't say to themselves, " Wow, I think I will have an abortion this year."
Life happens, and sometimes one feels they have no other choice because of many reasons. I know some women have them more than once, and have abortions for petty reasons, but some of them because they don't know what else to do. ;)

That's right; they are force- funded by taxpayers via the Fed. :eek:

[LuLu]

The conservatives issue with "it takes a village.." was with the idea of organizations other than the family and school helping.

The schools have overwhelmingly been changed and under the control of liberals since the 60's, so, yes, I blame the resulting problems that exist now, but didn't before, to be a result of liberalism.

LAUSD, I think is the largest school district in the nation. About 1/3 don't graduate, and about 1/2 of those who do can't properly read and write, much less do any math, geography or history. They have dumbed down the kids and the kids wind up in jobs that dont require thinking other than how to operate a machine.

Like when I pay for something that costs $6.11, I pull out a $10 bill, then the cashier puts in that amount in the "memory/calculator" of the register, but then I pull out .11 cents, and the cashier more times than

not these days, has a puzzled look on their face and don't know what to do except cancel the first transaction and enter "received $6.11" because they cant do basic math and figure out how much change to give, they are completely DEPENDENT on the machine doing the work.

Even many of the registers now have pictures or icons instead of words.

Its a total joke. There have been studies where they ask recent high school grads some basic ;questions, like, when did we declare independence, and from whom? In my day, if you didn't know answers to such simple questions you didnt graduate. Today, a majority of high school grads can't answer both parts of that question correctly.

Its a simple association,,,,schools changed, got more liberal, the symtoms of problems changed, due to the changes in school policies for the most part. Like counselors taking the attitude "they are going to do it anyways, so we might as well teach them how"

YOu do realize having a dependence on the "machine" has more to do with capitalism and a free market economy? We have a dependence because we are told to have a dependence.
The right screams when the President wants to be speak to school children, and you wonder why kids don't know the Declaration of Independence?

[J.T]

I get around

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZzwlt47OlQ

[J.T]

Abortions can't be funded by the federal government. ;)

I have no money for beer if I buy bread. Gimme five bucks for bread.

Thanks, now I have money for the beer :thumb:


And of course abortions are not planned. Women don't say to themselves, " Wow, I think I will have an abortion this year."

Yes, they do

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/health/article6335880.ece



Life happens
Seven times?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1035053/I-blanked-emotions-SEVEN-abortions.html

[Gunny]

YOu do realize having a dependence on the "machine" has more to do with capitalism and a free market economy? We have a dependence because we are told to have a dependence.
The right screams when the President wants to be speak to school children, and you wonder why kids don't know the Declaration of Independence?

Seems to me it was the left screaming for 8 years when a Republican President was speaking to school children and didn't panic on queue.

Bogus argument. Social programs are NOT any part of capitalism.

[fj1200]

YOu do realize having a dependence on the "machine" has more to do with capitalism and a free market economy? We have a dependence because we are told to have a dependence.

No, the machine enables dependence. Better schooling/parenting can give the tools so that people can be smarter than the machine instead of being just intelligent enough to run the machine.

[Kathianne]

A lot of them do. But being a counselor is like being an administrator. You rarely meet the good kids, because they don't have problems. I hear the horror stories. I meet the boys who think they are entitled.
Are they the majority of all high school boys? Probably not. Are they the majority of boys I come across? Yes.

And it doesn't help that there are so many helicopter parents these days. That is the one change from when I was growing up.

So you are judging all kids to be dependent on peer approval, "at all costs" because of the few you meet? The most troubled kids? You make broad generalizations about 'young men' based upon such? You see 'young women' choosing to make wrong choices to attract such young men? That is the message you send your daughter and all you come in contact with?

[DragonStryk72]

So you are judging all kids to be dependent on peer approval, "at all costs" because of the few you meet? The most troubled kids? You make broad generalizations about 'young men' based upon such? You see 'young women' choosing to make wrong choices to attract such young men? That is the message you send your daughter and all you come in contact with?

Actually, she judges all men regardless of age by them. She never once previously used "Young", just men don't care.

[Abbey Marie]

I think it is to be expected that many have become "Helicopter Parents", since it has become a bit of a war zone for our kids.

[LuvRPgrl]

I think it is to be expected that many have become "Helicopter Parents", since it has become a bit of a war zone for our kids.

I think the MAIN, not only, cause is the change of priorities.
As the atheists have pushed their agenda making us more of a godless society, the effects are inevitable.

We see it with enviormentalists who put rain forests ahead of the welfare of people, plants and animals come first for them.

With families, if its a one parent family, the woman (usually) has nothing other than the kids to focus on for her extraquirrecular activies.
In the case of intact marriages, the kids have become the priority, whereas the Bible says the spouses should be the priority of each other.

Again, in single parent homes, both custodial and non custodial parents now want to be the kids "best friend" instead of a "parent". Best friends typically support the kid in disputes between school authorities, whereas parents are more concerned about the kid learning life lessons and support the authority of the school, for the most part. And thats how it use to be.

Not to mention that the issue brought up by the helicopter parents is often legit because the libs have gotten the schools involved in every aspect of students lifes , EXCEPT teaching them basic learning skills.

[LuvRPgrl]

YOu do realize having a dependence on the "machine" has more to do with capitalism and a free market economy? We have a dependence because we are told to have a dependence.
The right screams when the President wants to be speak to school children, and you wonder why kids don't know the Declaration of Independence?

Sorry honey, but Obama either doesnt know the DOI himself, or he chooses to ignore it. Either way, he can't possibly teach it to kids.

USING A machine is the work of the free market,

But like FJ said DEPENDENCE on them is the result of lack of education.

[DragonStryk72]

I think it is to be expected that many have become "Helicopter Parents", since it has become a bit of a war zone for our kids.

Actually, it really isn't. In fact, we're safer than we've ever been in that regards, and crime overall is at a 20-year low. The difference is the media from 20 years ago, hell, even 15 years ago, has changed. There are whole companies, as well, that are trying to sell us on sheer paranoia about every single moment of our children's lives being fraught with peril if we are not right there hovering over them to "save" them from the evils of playing on a playground without parental supervision, and that you're a horrible if you don't share in that paranoia.

[LuvRPgrl]

Actually, it really isn't. In fact, we're safer than we've ever been in that regards, and crime overall is at a 20-year low. The difference is the media from 20 years ago, hell, even 15 years ago, has changed. There are whole companies, as well, that are trying to sell us on sheer paranoia about every single moment of our children's lives being fraught with peril if we are not right there hovering over them to "save" them from the evils of playing on a playground without parental supervision, and that you're a horrible if you don't share in that paranoia.


Can you go back to 1975?

[gabosaurus]

Not to mention that the issue brought up by the helicopter parents is often legit because the libs have gotten the schools involved in every aspect of students lifes , EXCEPT teaching them basic learning skills.

Schools have become so involved in the lives of kids because many parents either don't want to be involved or don't have time to. They are too busy working or getting on with their own lives.
Your idealism is wonderful, but it doesn't match up to the realism of single parent (or no parent) households in lower income areas.

[jimnyc]

Gabs, I'm not searching this entire thread for one little answer, that you likely haven't answered yet, so I'll quickly ask again. With all of your blabbering, have you explained yet why these kids you defend haven't been taught, or can't, spend the $.25 to $1.00 tops for a condom?

[J.T]

Gabs, I'm not searching this entire thread for one little answer, that you likely haven't answered yet, so I'll quickly ask again. With all of your blabbering, have you explained yet why these kids you defend haven't been taught, or can't, spend the $.25 to $1.00 tops for a condom?

Because women are mentally challenged defenseless little creatures incapable of planning ahead or practices any degree of self control or personal responsibility beyond that of a feral bitch in heat... :rolleyes:

[Abbey Marie]

Actually, it really isn't. In fact, we're safer than we've ever been in that regards, and crime overall is at a 20-year low. The difference is the media from 20 years ago, hell, even 15 years ago, has changed. There are whole companies, as well, that are trying to sell us on sheer paranoia about every single moment of our children's lives being fraught with peril if we are not right there hovering over them to "save" them from the evils of playing on a playground without parental supervision, and that you're a horrible if you don't share in that paranoia.

Link me up. In any event, overall safety numbers do not impress me. It is a factor of where you are, and who you are; college females being a particular target for the worst crimes.

We live in a nice suburb, yet when our daughter was around 8 years old, a child just two blocks away was almost abducted at her bus stop. Her parents thought she was safe there. I, on the other hand, was one of those "paranoid" moms who stayed and in fact, usually just drove her to school myself.

But- when I said "war zone", I was referring to much more than just physical safety. By keeping our computer in a communal room, not allowing television in her bedroom, etc., we have always watched over her spiritual well-being as well.

[LuvRPgrl]

Schools have become so involved in the lives of kids because many parents either don't want to be involved or don't have time to. They are too busy working or getting on with their own lives.
Your idealism is wonderful, but it doesn't match up to the realism of single parent (or no parent) households in lower income areas.

And what brought about the need for households to have both parents working?
And what brought about so many single parent households.
I have as good of a grasp on the reality of single or no parent households as anyone. I have experienced both. I grew up without parents, I even posted it, if you care to read it.

It has been liberal policies that got people, particularly women,; to believe the lie that they, and our society at large would be better off if women went into the work force equal to men.

Use to be one parent, mostlly the men, could support the entire family. Now, instead of having alot of disposable income because both parents are working, it has devolved into a neccisity.

And no fault divorce is the result of liberals for the most part.

They are too busy working or getting on with their own lives.

Yea, exactly, selfish to the core. Just like the act of killing ones own kid by aborting the pregnancy.

[Kathianne]

And what brought about the need for households to have both parents working?
And what brought about so many single parent households.
I have as good of a grasp on the reality of single or no parent households as anyone. I have experienced both. I grew up without parents, I even posted it, if you care to read it.

It has been liberal policies that got people, particularly women,; to believe the lie that they, and our society at large would be better off if women went into the work force equal to men.

Use to be one parent, mostlly the men, could support the entire family. Now, instead of having alot of disposable income because both parents are working, it has devolved into a neccisity.

And no fault divorce is the result of liberals for the most part.

They are too busy working or getting on with their own lives.

Yea, exactly, selfish to the core. Just like the act of killing ones own kid by aborting the pregnancy.

The conundrum you describe predates the economic issues we're facing today. Really, I can't address what's happened in the past 3 years. So for the sake of argument, ignore that.

If families are willing to do what was done at the point in time you are referring to, a parent can stay at home, if the primary breadwinner is making a sufficient income. The problem comes from the expectations that the family should be able to take at least one vacation that costs $4-6k and the parents should be able to take another for another couple grand.

The kids, let's say 2, should be able to be on leagues for some sports, another thousand for both. They all have cells and HD and the cables to support, easily another thou.

Cut out the vacations and unneeded tech, and many could afford a stay at home parent. We've not factored in savings of daycare, meals at home or prepared at home, and built in tutor.