Proof That Waterboarding Does Work [Archive] - Debate Policy

red states rule

05-03-2011, 03:49 AM

Thanks to waterboarding, the US was able to start to piece together the puzzle that led to the death of OBL

I wonder how the left will spin this news?

WASHINGTON — Officials say CIA interrogators in secret overseas prisons developed the first strands of information that ultimately led to the killing of Osama bin Laden.

Current and former U.S. officials say that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the mastermind of the Sept. 11, 2001 terrorist attacks, provided the nom de guerre of one of bin Laden’s most trusted aides. The CIA got similar information from Mohammed’s successor, Abu Faraj al-Libi. Both were subjected to harsh interrogation tactics inside CIA prisons in Poland and Romania.

The news is sure to reignite debate over whether the now-closed interrogation and detention program was successful. Former president George W. Bush authorized the CIA to use the harshest interrogation tactics in U.S. history. President Barack Obama closed the prison system.

http://news.bostonherald.com/news/us_politics/view/20110502first_strands_on_bin_laden_gathered_in_cia _prison/

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red states rule

05-03-2011, 04:20 AM

and from the man the left hates almost as much as Pres Bush

Cheney says Enhanced Interrogation Probably Led to UBL Death

Former Vice President Dick Cheney told Fox News that if controversial interrogation tactics were successful in getting the intelligence needed to find and kill Usama bin Laden after more than 10 years, then those tactics need to stay in place.

"I would assume that the enhanced interrogation program that we put in place produced some of the results that led to bin Laden's ultimate capture," Cheney said of the George W. Bush administration in an interview with Fox News Monday.

"I'm sure we'll all learn more over the course of the next few days about exactly what happened... We need to keep in place those policies that made it possible for us to succeed in this case."

Cheney and President Bush went after bin Laden hard in the months following September 11, 2001, narrowly missing the Al Qaeda leader in the mountains of Tora Bora that December.

"We obviously worked aggressively over the course of the time we were in office," Cheney said.

For that reason, it seems, President Obama called both Bush and Bill Clinton before announcing to the nation that UBL was in fact killed in a Navy Seals operation just outside Islamabad, Pakistan. Cheney, however, first heard bin Laden was dead Sunday night on TV.

"I don't have the kind of detailed insight now that I would have had two or three years ago. Basically what I have seen to date about this operation is what has been in the newspapers."

Cheney, who came under attack as VP and in the years since for his controversial views on rough treatment of detainees including waterboarding, a form of simulated drowning, said he has heard press reports detailing that types of torture may have garnered some of the intel used to find bin Laden, but that he didn't know enough to "speak authoritatively."

"Bin Laden is dead," Cheney declared, "[But] we have to be on our guard. We are still at war."

http://politics.blogs.foxnews.com/2011/05/02/cheney-says-enhanced-interrogation-probably-led-ubl-death

logroller

05-03-2011, 04:23 AM

red states rule

05-03-2011, 04:26 AM

Ida know red, spin/counterspin. I like to think if the pres said he closed those prisons it happened, but come on-- do you buy into complete transparency. I don;t need to know, just make it happen! If a bear sh*ts in the woods and nobody's there to step in it, does it matter?

For the last 10 years the left and liberal media ran story after story about the "torture" of the terrorists at the hands of the US (even though only THREE terrorists were ever waterboarded)

They ranted how waterboarding never worked

NOW, we have the proof it does work

That is why it matters

revelarts

05-03-2011, 07:36 AM

This is extremely saddening, so disappointing.

And as Log mentioned I never believed he closed all the secret prisons or stopped all of the "enhanced methods". There's been reports, specifically Bagram Airbase has been mentioned. Business as new usual. Quietly done in other places probably as well.
If you torture and murder people in the woods and no one ever hears about it, is it immoral?

So I guess you folk think that if it's good for the goose it's good for the gander.

Water boarding's ok for who ever other countries consider enemies too?
As long as it works.
Water boarding used by local cops to get info on murders or other important issues?
As long as it works.
Water boarding for people who plead the 5th is OK.
Our security is paramount can't be to careful.
As long as it works.

If water Boarding works why not go a little further, only If we have too.
Pulling Finger Nails, it's not disabling c'mon. It's not REALLY torture.
Tasers to the Privates, it's not disabling either some dr's say. might even STIMULATE reproduction. And it if get info. well then. Why not.
Thumb screws? Well we shouldn't take anything off the table.
The Rack IF NECESSARY.
I mean what if everything else failed and the world was about to blow up.

Please don't tell me I'm being ridiculous here.
we have already crossed 1 clear line.
Waterboarding WAS ILLEGAL, not today.

If it's legal then why not use it locally. It's not that bad it's not really torture.

The country has crossed over. he are not a country to be admired for our Goodness. For doing the right thing. For being the good guys.
We are just the strongest. Don't mess with us or we'll kick your A$$. And if we need your lunch money -Oil we'll kick you A$$. As As a matter a fact if we don't like you we'll kick your A$$, even if you haven't done anything to us. Iraq, Libya, next...

jimnyc

05-03-2011, 07:47 AM

This is extremely saddening, so disappointing.

Yes, killing the most wanted man on the planet is saddening. Toppling the leader of a terrorist group that killed over 3,000 of our citizens disappoints me to no end. It all brings a tear to my eye.

Cry a river as high up the ladder you can, but to be disappointed right now because Bin Laden is dead, and you know it was likely a result of waterboarding, is what is saddening and disappointing to me. I personally would have waterboarded 50,000 terrorists if it meant the death of this piece of shit.

Abbey Marie

05-03-2011, 09:02 AM

revelarts

05-03-2011, 10:18 AM

You are being ridiculous here.

Crucifixion really isn't torture either Abby.
Not sure why we as Christian say Jesus suffered. Nails in the Hands and feet. We've made it sound worse than it really is. It was legal in Rome for a reason.

And i'm sure Jesus is proud that we water board.
We'll be rewarded for supporting the practice.
Since it works. And gets the bad guys.

USA USA USA USA!!!

red states rule

05-03-2011, 04:09 PM

Crucifixion really isn't torture either Abby.
Not sure why we as Christian say Jesus suffered. Nails in the Hands and feet. We've made it sound worse than it really is. It was legal in Rome for a reason.

And i'm sure Jesus is proud that we water board.
We'll be rewarded for supporting the practice.
Since it works. And gets the bad guys.

USA USA USA USA!!!

If you are serious, I can see you know being the TV reporter giving the on the scene report from a terror attack that leveled a Wal Mart packed with Black Friday shoppers

As the bodies are carrried away from the scene, you can report how the government had several terrorists in custody who may have had knowledge of the attack, but refused to use enhanced interrogation techniques since they are considered torture

As the bodies pile up at the local morgue and the wonded stack up at hospitals, you can tell your viewers how America lived up to your lofty standards and did not "sink" to the level of the terrorists

You can report how this is the price a free society must pay

Then as an ambulance pulls up behind you, it blows up and scatters you into so many pieces dental records will be neded to confirm your identity

Meanwhile at the prison, the terrorists watching on TV bust out in laughter and slap each other on the back for another successful attack

This is what would happen if there were more people like you in charge of the government revelarts. The public would be sitting ducks and at the mercy of the terrorists

red states rule

05-03-2011, 04:24 PM

The NY Times is ignoring the facts as well on how the intl was obtained

New York Times Brushes Aside Inconvenient Osama Fact: Intelligence Originated at Gitmo

Tuesday’s lead New York Times editorial thumped President Obama on the back for the targeted killing of Osama bin Laden, calling the president “a strong and measured leader.” In contrast, the two mentions of President Bush, who pursued Bin Laden aggressively, were both negative. The editors also tried to shoo away the pesky fact that the tip that led to Osama bin Laden’s killing came from a detainee at Guantanamo Bay, the island prison the paper has worked so hard to close down over the years, contradicting its own reporting in the process.

Leadership matters enormously, and President Obama has shown that he is a strong and measured leader. His declaration on Sunday night that “justice has been done” was devoid of triumphalism. His vow that the country will “remain vigilant at home and abroad” was an important reminder that the danger has not passed. His affirmation that the “United States is not and never will be at war with Islam” sent an essential message to the Muslim world, where hopes for democracy are rising but old hatreds, and leaders who exploit them, are still powerful.

Mr. Obama rightly affirmed that this country will be “relentless in defense of our citizens and our friends and allies” — but “true to the values that make us who we are.” Maintaining that balance is never easy, and this administration has strayed, but not as often or as damagingly as the Bush team did. Much will be made of the fact that the original tip came from detainees at the prison at Guantánamo Bay, Cuba. There is no evidence that good intelligence like this was the result of secret detentions or abuse and torture. Everything suggests the opposite.
Not “much” has necessarily been made in the Times, however. A nytimes.com search suggests the detail has so far only appeared once in a news story, either in print or online. The paper has also failed to note the irony of Obama having campaigned on a program of shutting the prison down.

And the paper's actual reporting contradicts the paper's liberal assumption that "secret detentions" failed to gather intelligence. Tuesday’s lead story twice noted that the intelligence work that led to bin Laden’s assassination included “the interrogation of C.I.A. detainees in secret prisons in Eastern Europe” -- prisons which liberals and Times reporters had previously deplored as ineffective, possibly illegal, and black marks on America's reputation.

Read more: http://www.newsbusters.org/blogs/clay-waters/2011/05/03/new-york-times-brushes-aside-inconvenient-osama-fact-intelligence-origi#ixzz1LKKTsKRt

sundaydriver

05-03-2011, 05:22 PM

Many intelligence people and organizations have found harsh techniques to be unreliable as the people being interrogated will tell the interrogator what they want to hear making the information obtained unreliable.

As for Sheik Muhammad giving up the courier during water boarding...Well, here is what the Donald says.

http://www.talkradionews.com/topstories/2011/5/3/rumsfeld-waterboarding-didnt-reveal-bin-laden-location.html

red states rule

05-03-2011, 05:25 PM

Many intelligence people and organizations have found harsh techniques to be unreliable as the people being interrogated will tell the interrogator what they want to hear.

As for Sheik Muhammad giving up the couriour during waterboarding...Well here is what the Donald says.

http://www.talkradionews.com/topstories/2011/5/3/rumsfeld-waterboarding-didnt-reveal-bin-laden-location.html

Not only Donal, but VP Cheney and Rep Peter King

If the sources you site were in charge, OBL would be alive and well right now and not (like Luca Brasi in the Godfather) sleeping with the fishes

and we have this thanks to Al Gore's amazing internet

Last night, I noted that “much of the intelligence gathered that led to discovering bin Laden was developed by the detainees detained under the Bush administration at facilities like the one Obama wanted to shut down.”

Those facilities, US officials are now reporting, included the CIA secret prisons reviled by the Left, outed by the Washington Post, and condemned by…wait for it…President Obama.

Flashback January 2009:

Saying that “our ideals give us the strength and moral high ground” to combat terrorism, President Obama signed executive orders Thursday ending the Central Intelligence Agency’s secret overseas prisons, banning coercive interrogation methods and closing the Guantánamo Bay detention camp within a year.

…As Mr. Obama signed three orders in a White House ceremony, 16 retired generals and admirals who have fought for months for a ban on coercive interrogations stood behind him and applauded. The group, organized to lobby the Obama transition team by the group Human Rights First, did not include any career C.I.A. officers or retirees.

…The intelligence agency built a network of secret prisons in 2002 to house and interrogate senior Qaeda figures captured overseas. The exact number of suspects to have moved through the prisons is unknown, although Michael V. Hayden, the departing director of the agency, has in the past put the number at “fewer than 100.”

The secret detentions brought international condemnation, and in September 2006, Mr. Bush ordered that the remaining 14 detainees in C.I.A. custody be transferred to Guantánamo Bay and tried by military tribunals.
Now:

Officials say CIA interrogators in secret overseas prisons developed the first strands of information that ultimately led to the killing of Osama bin Laden.

Current and former U.S. officials say that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the mastermind of the Sept. 11, 2001 terrorist attacks, provided the nom de guerre of one of bin Laden’s most trusted aides. The CIA got similar information Mohammed’s successor, Abu Faraj al-Libi. Both were subjected to harsh interrogation tactics inside CIA prisons in Poland and Romania.

http://michellemalkin.com/2011/05/02/then-and-now-the-left-obama-and-secret-prisons/

red states rule

05-03-2011, 05:54 PM

This is what is known as a non-denial denial. The far left wil never accept the fact waterboarding worked once again

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sundaydriver

05-03-2011, 06:05 PM

Not only Donal, but VP Cheney and Rep Peter King

If the sources you site were in charge, OBL would be alive and well right now and not (like Luca Brasi in the Godfather) sleeping with the fishes

and we have this thanks to Al Gore's amazing internet

Wait a minute. You post a video showing Franks sayng Mohammed gave up the couriour during waterboarding. Donald Rumsfeld said yesterday that was not what happened. The time line also shows the info turned almost 2 years after Mohammed's water boarding ended.

The information was better likely thru good interrogation technique and movie quality detective work.

Your reply I don't understand at all!

red states rule

05-03-2011, 06:13 PM

Wait a minute. You post a video showing Franks sayng Mohammed gave up the couriour during waterboarding. Donald Rumsfeld said yesterday that was not what happened. The time line also shows the info turned almost 2 years after Mohammed's water boarding ended.

The information was better likely thru good interrogation technique and movie quality detective work.

Your reply I don't understand at all!

I have no idea who Franks is or who you are talking about. The fact is waterboaridng worked acording to Rep King and VP Cheney. Yes it takes time to piece together the intel. This is not "24" where everything falls into place fast

Alo, it is clear Obama has kept most of the Bush polices when it comes to the War on Terror. GITMO is still open. Trials are not held in federal Courts.

The non-denial denial from the WH tells me alot about the waterboarding issue

And Obama gave the go ahead to take the slimeball OBL out. He could have wimped out like the far left would have wanted to and placed him "under arrest" and cost the lives of our troops and other civilians - but he did not

sundaydriver

05-03-2011, 07:41 PM

I'm sorry... Peter King

Cheney has said: he thinks harsh interrogation saved lives, but what ever the case.

It was I believe rightly decided years ago that Bi-Laden would be killed rather than bring him to formal justice and be a "thorn" to the US until his punishment was dealt. The burial at sea was also a perfect solution to the end of the problem that was Osama..... dead & gone!

red states rule

05-03-2011, 07:50 PM

Noir

05-03-2011, 07:53 PM

This is extremely saddening, so disappointing....

^Could rep this post a dozen times.

I'm glad obl is dead, that doesn't mean I have to be glad about how the information that may of lead to his finding was obtained. I have no doubt it is torture, and as such unacceptable.

For anyone who believes that the ends justify the means then you have to ask yourself what means would you not accept.

red states rule

05-03-2011, 07:56 PM

^Could rep this post a dozen times.

I'm glad obl is dead, that doesn't mean I have to be glad about how the information that may of lead to his finding was obtained. I have no doubt it is torture, and as such unacceptable.

For anyone who believes that the ends justify the means then you have to ask yourself what means would you not accept.

What is sad there are so many weak people who would rather let the attacks happen, have innocent people die - rather then do what is needed to stop them

Again, if people like you were in charge Noir, OBL would be live and well today

red states rule

05-03-2011, 07:59 PM

Noir, how many dead would you accept to protect the "rights" of terrorists?

That question has been among the most hotly disputed issues at the center of the continuing controversy over the CIA's interrogation of suspected terrorists. The report released Monday from the former CIA Inspector General John Helgerson should end the debate.

Throughout his report, Helgerson goes out of his way to avoid expressing an opinion about the effectiveness of the "enhanced interrogation techniques" (EITs). On page 85, for instance, he writes generally about the CIA's detention and interrogation program:

The detention of terrorists has prevented them from engaging in further terrorist activity, and their interrogation has provided intelligence that has enabled the identification and apprehension of other terrorists, warned of terrorist plots planned for the United States and around the world, and supported articles frequently used in the finished intelligence publications for senior policymakers and war fighters. In this regard, there is no doubt that the Program has been effective.

Then he adds this caveat about EITs:

Measuring the effectiveness of EITs, however, is a more subjective process and not without some concern.

On page 89 he writes:

Inasmuch as EITs have been used only since August 2002, and they have not all been used with every high value detainee, there is limited data on which to assess their individual effectiveness.

And later, on the same page, he argues:

Measuring the overall effectiveness of EITs is challenging for a number of reasons including: (1) the Agency cannot determine with any certainty the totality of the intelligence the detainee actually possesses; (2) each detainee has different fears of and tolerance for EITs; (3) the application of the same EITs by different interrogators may have produced different results.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/weblogs/TWSFP/2009/08/did_they_work.asp

Noir

05-03-2011, 08:05 PM

and Noir, if you were in charge, an attack on LA would have happened

How many dead would you accept to protect the "rights" of terrorists?

Both points are as strong as each other.

"At what point would you stop torturing if you believed the person had information"

I look at it from the perspective of the innocent, you look at it from the perspective of the guilty.

red states rule

05-03-2011, 08:08 PM

Both points are as strong as each other.

"At what point would you stop torturing if you believed the person had information"

I look at it from the perspective of the innocent, you look at it from the perspective of the guilty.

These terrorists were not oicked up at a local PTA meeting Noir. Many were captured on the battlefield or in safe houses

and here we have where waterboarding clearly saved lives

What would you Noir? Do all you could to stop the attack, or make nice and say "oops" after the attack happens?

Critics of the CIA program are desperate to convince Americans that no valuable information came from the interrogations of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed (KSM) and other senior terrorists. They know that if our citizens learn the details of how enhanced interrogations stopped terrorist plots, most would support the CIA program. A recent Pew poll showed that 71% of Americans believe that there are circumstances under which torture (not just enhanced interrogations, but actual torture) is justifiable to get information from captured terrorists.

This is why Timothy Noah of Slate (with Andrew Sullivan cheerleading him on his blog) is at such pains to debunk the story of the West Coast plot.

This was a KSM plot for a “Second Wave” attack using East Asian operatives to use shoe-bombs to hijack an airplane and fly it into the Library Tower in Los Angeles. Noah states in a blog post that this plot was never realistic. Here is his rationale:

The first reason to be skeptical that this planned attack could have been carried out successfully is that, as I’ve noted before, attacking buildings by flying planes into them didn’t remain a viable al-Qaida strategy even through Sept. 11, 2001. Thanks to cell phones, passengers on United Flight 93 were able to learn that al-Qaida was using planes as missiles and crashed the plane before it could hit its target. There was no way future passengers on any flight would let a terrorist who killed the pilot and took the controls fly wherever he pleased.

Really? Planes were off the table after 9/11? That would come as a surprise to every passenger in the past three years who had their liquids confiscated in an airport security line. Those security measures were instituted because in 2006 we foiled an al-Qaeda plot to hijack airplanes leaving London’s Heathrow airport and blow them up over the Atlantic (a plot our intelligence community says was just weeks from execution). Apparently al-Qaeda didn’t get Noah’s memo explaining that hijacking airplanes for terrorist attacks is “no longer viable al Qaeda strategy.”

In his post, Noah calls the West Coast plot “Thiessen’s claim” and Anderw Sullivan calls it “Thiessen’s LA Tower Canard.” What these two fail to appreciate is that the story of how enhanced interrogation broke up the West Coast plot is not my story — it is the official position of the intelligence community.

In my Washington Post piece, I was citing the very documents which President Obama released, which quote the CIA saying that interrogation with enhanced techniques “led to the discovery of a KSM plot, the ‘Second Wave,’ to ‘use East Asian operatives to crash a hijacked airliner into’ a building in Los Angeles.” The memo released by Obama goes on the explain that “information obtained from KSM also led to the capture of Riduan bin Isomuddin, better known as Hambali, and the discovery of the Guraba Cell, a 17-member Jemmah Islamiyah cell tasked with executing the ‘Second Wave.’ ”

Again, those are not my words. That is the position of our intelligence community.

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/180930/west-coast-plot-inconvenient-truth/marc-thiessen

Noir

05-03-2011, 08:15 PM

These terrorists were not oicked up at a local PTA meeting Noir. Many were captured on the battlefield or in safe houses

and here we have where waterboarding clearly saved lives

What would you Noir? Do all you could to stop the attack, or make nice and say "oops" after the attack happens?

I have no doubt there are times when torture works. But I have also no doubt there are times when it fails.

I mean, if you think a guy may know about a bomb, and he is water boarded and says he knows nothing, do you believe him or torture him in different, more painful ways? What if he still says he knows nothing? At what point would you believe that he knew nothing about a bombing?

red states rule

05-03-2011, 08:18 PM

I have no doubt there are times when torture works. But I have also no doubt there are times when it fails.

I mean, if you think a guy may know about a bomb, and he is water boarded and says he knows nothing, do you believe him or torture him in different, more painful ways? What if he still says he knows nothing? At what point would you believe that he knew nothing about a bombing?

Noir, do you know how many terrorists were waterboarded? I know the left wants people to think it was a common practice - but only THREE terrorists were ever waterboarded

THREE!!!!

This same article chased Bully away from his own tread BTW

and waterboading is NOT torture. Squirting a little water down the nose of a terrorist is hardly that Noir

For all the debate over waterboarding, it has been used on only three al Qaeda figures, according to current and former U.S. intelligence officials.

As ABC News first reported in September, waterboarding has not been used since 2003 and has been specifically prohibited since Gen. Michael Hayden took over as CIA director.

Officials told ABC News on Sept. 14 that the controversial interrogation technique, in which a suspect has water poured over his mouth and nose to stimulate a drowning reflex as shown in the above demonstration, had been banned by the CIA director at the recommendation of his deputy, Steve Kappes.

Hayden sought and received approval from the White House to remove waterboarding from the list of approved interrogation techniques first authorized by a presidential finding in 2002.

The officials say the decision was made sometime last year but has never been publicly disclosed by the CIA.

http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/2007/11/exclusive-only-.html

Noir

05-03-2011, 08:25 PM

Noir, do you know how many terrorists were waterboarded? I know the left wants people to think it was a common practice - but only THREE terrorists were ever waterboarded

THREE!!!!

This same article chased Bully away from his own tread BTW

and waterboading is NOT torture. Squirting a little water down the nose of a terrorist is hardly that Noir

We will never know the truth about what or when 'enchanted interrogation technichs' (talk about something straight out of an Orwell book) were used.

And you may not believe it's torture, I do.

red states rule

05-03-2011, 08:29 PM

We will never know the truth about what or when 'enchanted interrogation technichs' (talk about something straight out of an Orwell book) were used.

And you may not believe it's torture, I do.

that is why the left is so silent on this topic. They do not want to face the fact they were wrong on how effective waterboarding is. Now they want to dismiss this pecky fact

How is it torture Noir? There are no lasting effects. The three SOB were still breathing afterwards. No wounds to stich up. They were able to walk under their own power

And inncoent lives were saved

What is the downside?

sundaydriver

05-03-2011, 08:40 PM

Sorry wrong again

Waterboarding prevented attacks and saved lives. Much to the dismay of libs who were hoping for another terror attack on Bush's watch

WHO the hell would wish for another attack on the US in hope of making someone look bad ? I never met anyone or heard of anyone that would think that that was a fair trade to satisfy their own warped desires! Of course as I see more of some thoughts on this here it does seem there is a lot of almost gleeful threads and finger pointing when things do go bad for us.

red states rule

05-03-2011, 08:41 PM

WHO the hell would wish for another attack on the US in hope of making someone look bad...YOU?

I know of many liberals who were.

And many were sad 9/11 did not happen so Clinton could have responded

With most liberals it is all about preserving their politcal power and not what is best for the country

Noir

05-03-2011, 08:46 PM

that is why the left is so silent on this topic. They do not want to face the fact they were wrong on how effective waterboarding is. Now they want to dismiss this pecky fact

How is it torture Noir? There are no lasting effects. The three SOB were still breathing afterwards. No wounds to stich up. They were able to walk under their own power

And inncoent lives were saved

What is the downside?

I'm assuming you have seen Chrisopher Hitchens being water boarded, were afterwards he made clear that if that isn't torture then nothing is. (and he's not exaclty known fro his soft touch when it comes to terrorists)

red states rule

05-03-2011, 08:49 PM

I'm assuming you have seen Chrisopher Hitchens being water boarded, were afterwards he made clear that if that isn't torture then nothing is. (and he's not exaclty known fro his soft touch when it comes to terrorists)

No, I am talking about the three terrorist SOB's who were waterboarded.

Unlike the terrorists prisoners, they did not lose their head over being waterboarded

Last I checked KSM is alive and well - and I believe he has put on a few pounds while in prison at club GITMO

Noir

05-03-2011, 08:56 PM

No, I am talking about the three terrorist SOB's who were waterboarded.

Unlike the terrorists prisoners, they did not loose their head over being waterboarded

Last I checked KSM is alive and well - and I believe he has put on a few pounds while in prison at club GITMO

Well I know hitechens still has nightmares about the drowning, I haven't heard of ksm's mental state, maybe you could enlighten me?

Every report or interview I have ever seen with anyone who has been water boarded has said it was torture. Can you provide sources of people who have been water boarded who say it isn't torture? Because I'm mire inclined to believe first hand accounts.

red states rule

05-03-2011, 08:59 PM

Well I know hitechens still has nightmares about the drowning, I haven't heard of ksm's mental state, maybe you could enlighten me?

Every report or interview I have ever seen with anyone who has been water boarded has said it was torture. Can you provide sources of people who have been water boarded who say it isn't torture? Because I'm mire inclined to believe first hand accounts.

You have to ask about the mental state of a terrorist who used a hacksaw and cut the head off a helpless man and gleefully showed it happening on the internet?

Again Noir, how is it torture? When I here the world torture, I think of thumb screws, the rack, buring the body with a blowtorch, or things along that line

How is squirting a little water down the nose of three terrorists to try and stop attacks such a bad thing in your mind?

Noir

05-03-2011, 09:07 PM

You have to ask about the mental state of a terrorist who used a hacksaw and cut the head off a helpless man and gleefully showed it happening on the internet?

Again Noir, how is it torture? When I here the world torture, I think of thumb screws, the rack, buring the body with a blowtorch, or things along that line

How is squirting a little water down the nose of three terrorists to try and stop attacks such a bad thing in your mind?

I think you should watch this video if you have not already seen it. Mancow, you may know, is a Conservitive radio talkshow guy, who said exactly the kind of stuff you are and agreed to be water boarded to prove it was not torture, here is how it went.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUkj9pjx3H0&feature=youtube_gdata_player

red states rule

05-03-2011, 09:09 PM

I think you should watch this video if you have not already seen it. Mancow, you may know, is a Conservitive radio talkshow guy, who said exactly the kind of stuff you are and agreed to be water boarded to prove it was not torture, here is how it went.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUkj9pjx3H0&feature=youtube_gdata_player

So far you are ducking my direct questions Noir. Which I am use to when debating those on the left

Care to answer the two questions I asked you in my previous post?

Noir

05-03-2011, 09:15 PM

So far you are ducking my direct questions Noir. Which I am use to when debating those on the left

Care to answer the two questions I asked you in my previous post?

Once you accept some torture it's a slippery slop, ergo I accept no torture. Answer your questions?

Now maybe you can answer why no one that has been water boarded that I can find says it's not torture. Even a conservative, who went in with a clear and stated bias to prove it was not torture changed his mind TOTALY in SIX SECONDS does that not tell you something?

red states rule

05-04-2011, 03:26 AM

Once you accept some torture it's a slippery slop, ergo I accept no torture. Answer your questions?

Now maybe you can answer why no one that has been water boarded that I can find says it's not torture. Even a conservative, who went in with a clear and stated bias to prove it was not torture changed his mind TOTALY in SIX SECONDS does that not tell you something?

Not even close Noir

Again, here are the two questions I asked: You have to ask about the mental state of a terrorist who used a hacksaw and cut the head off a helpless man and gleefully showed it happening on the internet?

Again Noir, how is it torture? When I here the world torture, I think of thumb screws, the rack, buring the body with a blowtorch, or things along that line

I never said waterboaring was a pleasant experience Noir. It was used on THREE terrorists to obtain valuable information and to save innocent lives

But unlike torture, it has no lasting effects.

Now we have the CIA director admitting waterboarding obtained info that led to OBL

http://freedomslighthouse.net/2011/05/03/cia-director-leon-panetta-confirms-that-waterboarding-was-used-on-detainees-who-supplied-intel-that-led-to-bin-laden-video-5311/

and listen to a well known liberal whines over the US shooting an "unarmed man"

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red states rule

05-04-2011, 04:08 AM

Yes, killing the most wanted man on the planet is saddening. Toppling the leader of a terrorist group that killed over 3,000 of our citizens disappoints me to no end. It all brings a tear to my eye.

Cry a river as high up the ladder you can, but to be disappointed right now because Bin Laden is dead, and you know it was likely a result of waterboarding, is what is saddening and disappointing to me. I personally would have waterboarded 50,000 terrorists if it meant the death of this piece of shit.

Jim, the bottom line is Bush's policies led to this great event. The Dems and liberal media have blamed Bush for nearly everything that has happened since Obama took office

Yet that will not happen in this instance

Noir

05-04-2011, 06:10 AM

Not even close Noir

Again, here are the two questions I asked: You have to ask about the mental state of a terrorist who used a hacksaw and cut the head off a helpless man and gleefully showed it happening on the internet?

Again Noir, how is it torture? When I here the world torture, I think of thumb screws, the rack, buring the body with a blowtorch, or things along that line

I never said waterboaring was a pleasant experience Noir. It was used on THREE terrorists to obtain valuable information and to save innocent lives

But unlike torture, it has no lasting effects.*

Now we have the CIA director admitting waterboarding obtained info that led to OBL

http://freedomslighthouse.net/2011/05/03/cia-director-leon-panetta-confirms-that-waterboarding-was-used-on-detainees-who-supplied-intel-that-led-to-bin-laden-video-5311/

and listen to a well known liberal whines over the US shooting an "unarmed man"

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*
I say it's torture because EVERYONEthat I can find on the Internet who has been water bordered has said it was torture to them after seconds.*

Here are some quotes from people who have tried it.*

"I wanted to prove it wasn't torture. They cut off our heads, we put water on their face...I got voted to do this but I really thought 'I'm going to laugh this off...It is way worse than I thought it would be, and that's no joke. It is such an odd feeling to have water poured down your nose with your head back...It was instantaneous...and I don't want to say this: absolutely torture."
— Erich “Mancow” Muller - Conservative talk show host

"It sounded like when we are really in pain, choking in water. The sound was screaming, from the throat. I suppose they could not bear the torture. Whenever we heard the noises we were really shocked and scared. We thought one day they will do the same thing to us."
Is it torture?
"Yes, it is severe torture. We could try it and see how we would react if we are choking under water for just two minutes. It is very serious."
— Van Nath - Survivor recalls horrors of Cambodia genocide

"The rag was soaked rapidly. Water flowed everywhere: in my mouth, in my nose, all over my face. But for a while I could still breathe in some small gulps of air. I tried, by contracting my throat, to take in as little water as possible and to resist suffocation by keeping air in my lungs for as long as I could. But I couldn't hold on for more than a few moments. I had the impression of drowning, and a terrible agony, that of death itself, took possession of me. In spite of myself, all the muscles of my body struggled uselessly to save me from suffocation."
— Henri Alleg, quoted in 'Waterboarding is torture - I did it myself, says US advisor'

"Unless you have been strapped down to the board, have endured the agonizing feeling of the water overpowering your gag reflex, and then feel your throat open and allow pint after pint of water to involuntarily fill your lungs, you will not know the meaning of the word."
— Malcom Nance, Waterboarding is Torture… Period

"They would lash me to a stretcher then prop me up against a table with my head down. They would then pour about two gallons of water from a pitcher into my nose and mouth until I lost consciousness."
"They laid me out on a stretcher and strapped me on. The stretcher was then stood on end with my head almost touching the floor and my feet in the air. . . . They then began pouring water over my face and at times it was almost impossible for me to breathe without sucking in water."
— testimony of two Americans imprisoned by Japanese soldiers.

I apply the Abraham Lincoln test for moral casuistry: “If slavery is not wrong, nothing is wrong.” Well, then, if waterboarding does not constitute torture, then there is no such thing as torture."
— Christopher Hitchens, "Believe Me, It’s Torture"

Testimonies from waterboarding.org

Now PLEASE rsr, find me a website full of journalists, commentators and former marines from all sides of the political spectrum who have been waterboarded and said it was not torture. Because I can't find one such quote.*

jimnyc

05-04-2011, 06:16 AM

Now PLEASE rsr, find me a website full of journalists, commentators and former marines from all sides of the political spectrum who have been waterboarded and said it was not torture. Because I can't find one such quote.*

I guess you didn't search very hard on THIS very website. Mr. P is former military and has endured waterboarding, and he has stated it is not torture. Maybe he'll chime in if and when he sees this thread.

Noir

05-04-2011, 06:25 AM

I guess you didn't search very hard on THIS very website. Mr. P is former military and has endured waterboarding, and he has stated it is not torture. Maybe he'll chime in if and when he sees this thread.

Well he needs to go national with this revelation because it is nowhere on the Internet, but there are plenty of testimonies of marines who have said it is.

The real clunker for me is that mancow bloke. When someone goes in saying there aim us to prove it is not torture, and after six seconds says they don't want to admit it but it's absolutely torture, then I take that man at his word.

jimnyc

05-04-2011, 06:38 AM

Well he needs to go national with this revelation because it is nowhere on the Internet, but there are plenty of testimonies of marines who have said it is.

The real clunker for me is that mancow bloke. When someone goes in saying there aim us to prove it is not torture, and after six seconds says they don't want to admit it but it's absolutely torture, then I take that man at his word.

But you wouldn't take Mr. P at his word? I'm guessing that "torture" is what the current "prisoner" thinks it is, and not what the masses think. But I do know that waterboarding does not inflict the pain needed to define torture, nor does it leave long term effects.

And I don't see this method being part of a "slippery slope". It was used 3 times, and the one that counted was on one of the admitted masterminds of 9/11. I could see if the person captured was possibly innocent, but if it's a known terrorist, then I say do what is necessary to get information from the scumbag.

Noir

05-04-2011, 06:51 AM

But you wouldn't take Mr. P at his word? I'm guessing that "torture" is what the current "prisoner" thinks it is, and not what the masses think. But I do know that waterboarding does not inflict the pain needed to define torture, nor does it leave long term effects.

And I don't see this method being part of a "slippery slope". It was used 3 times, and the one that counted was on one of the admitted masterminds of 9/11. I could see if the person captured was possibly innocent, but if it's a known terrorist, then I say do what is necessary to get information from the scumbag.

Waterboarding is controlled drowning. The number of accounts that you can read that all say the same thing, that all you can feel is death, how could that not be torture?

And it is a slippery slop, once you think you have a guy that knows say about a bombing, what would you not do to get the information? You clearly say "do what is nessessery" which I can see your justification for if afterwards it turns out he did have the info. But if he didn't, what then? Would you ever stop? Or would you torture that man to death?

jimnyc

05-04-2011, 06:56 AM

Waterboarding is controlled drowning. The number of accounts that you can read that all say the same thing, that all you can feel is death, how could that not be torture?

And it is a slippery slop, once you think you have a guy that knows say about a bombing, what would you not do to get the information? You clearly say "do what is nessessery" which I can see your justification for if afterwards it turns out he did have the info. But if he didn't, what then? Would you ever stop? Or would you torture that man to death?

If it's a known terrorist, I couldn't possibly care less what the effects were on him or what the outcome was. It "could" save lives and that's all that matters to me. If it's a known terrorist, and it doesn't pan out, I wouldn't lose a wink of sleep.

Noir

05-04-2011, 07:09 AM

If it's a known terrorist, I couldn't possibly care less what the effects were on him or what the outcome was. It "could" save lives and that's all that matters to me. If it's a known terrorist, and it doesn't pan out, I wouldn't lose a wink of sleep.

Great. Now just leave in to your government to define who they believe to be terrorrists, and sleep well.

fj1200

05-04-2011, 07:12 AM

I'm assuming you have seen Chrisopher Hitchens being water boarded, were afterwards he made clear that if that isn't torture then nothing is. (and he's not exaclty known fro his soft touch when it comes to terrorists)

I'm shocked :eek: and I'm sure that he did not hold that view BEFORE his experience. :rolleyes: Did he elect to have his fingernails pulled out too?

jimnyc

05-04-2011, 07:13 AM

Great. Now just leave in to your government to define who they believe to be terrorrists, and sleep well.

Sleep well knowing that they were caught in the act on the battlefield, and the one who gave information about Osama's courier CONFESSED to his crimes.

red states rule

05-04-2011, 04:05 PM

*
I say it's torture because EVERYONEthat I can find on the Internet who has been water bordered has said it was torture to them after seconds.*

Here are some quotes from people who have tried it.*

"I wanted to prove it wasn't torture. They cut off our heads, we put water on their face...I got voted to do this but I really thought 'I'm going to laugh this off...It is way worse than I thought it would be, and that's no joke. It is such an odd feeling to have water poured down your nose with your head back...It was instantaneous...and I don't want to say this: absolutely torture."
— Erich “Mancow” Muller - Conservative talk show host

"It sounded like when we are really in pain, choking in water. The sound was screaming, from the throat. I suppose they could not bear the torture. Whenever we heard the noises we were really shocked and scared. We thought one day they will do the same thing to us."
Is it torture?
"Yes, it is severe torture. We could try it and see how we would react if we are choking under water for just two minutes. It is very serious."
— Van Nath - Survivor recalls horrors of Cambodia genocide

"The rag was soaked rapidly. Water flowed everywhere: in my mouth, in my nose, all over my face. But for a while I could still breathe in some small gulps of air. I tried, by contracting my throat, to take in as little water as possible and to resist suffocation by keeping air in my lungs for as long as I could. But I couldn't hold on for more than a few moments. I had the impression of drowning, and a terrible agony, that of death itself, took possession of me. In spite of myself, all the muscles of my body struggled uselessly to save me from suffocation."
— Henri Alleg, quoted in 'Waterboarding is torture - I did it myself, says US advisor'

"Unless you have been strapped down to the board, have endured the agonizing feeling of the water overpowering your gag reflex, and then feel your throat open and allow pint after pint of water to involuntarily fill your lungs, you will not know the meaning of the word."
— Malcom Nance, Waterboarding is Torture… Period

"They would lash me to a stretcher then prop me up against a table with my head down. They would then pour about two gallons of water from a pitcher into my nose and mouth until I lost consciousness."
"They laid me out on a stretcher and strapped me on. The stretcher was then stood on end with my head almost touching the floor and my feet in the air. . . . They then began pouring water over my face and at times it was almost impossible for me to breathe without sucking in water."
— testimony of two Americans imprisoned by Japanese soldiers.

I apply the Abraham Lincoln test for moral casuistry: “If slavery is not wrong, nothing is wrong.” Well, then, if waterboarding does not constitute torture, then there is no such thing as torture."
— Christopher Hitchens, "Believe Me, It’s Torture"

Testimonies from waterboarding.org

Now PLEASE rsr, find me a website full of journalists, commentators and former marines from all sides of the political spectrum who have been waterboarded and said it was not torture. Because I can't find one such quote.*

Members of the US military are waterboarded as part of their training Noir. So using your "thinking" the US government "tortures" them

Again Noir, you have to ask about the mental state of a terrorist who used a hacksaw and cut the head off a helpless man and gleefully showed it happening on the internet?

red states rule

05-04-2011, 05:13 PM

I am starting to think Noir and Rev write the "news" for the NY Times

The New York Times quickly moved to quash suggestions that “enhanced interrogation” like waterboarding may have yielded useful intelligence in the killing of Osama bin Laden. Moving to protect the paper’s ideological investment that such methods are both brutal and ineffective was Wednesday’s front-page defense by Scott Shane and Charlie Savage, “Harsh Methods Of Questioning Debated Again.”

The reporters seems awfully assured, based on vague and contradictory information, in their attempt to discredit the idea that "brutal interrogations" (a phrase at the top of the article's first sentence) and "torture" like waterboarding may have yielded useful intelligence. They also ignored C.I.A. director Leon Panetta's admission to anchor Brian Williams on Tuesday's NBC Nightly News after the anchor asked him if waterboarding helped obtain information that led to bin Laden: "I think some of the detainees clearly were, you know-they used these enhanced interrogation techniques against some of these detainees."

Did brutal interrogations produce the crucial intelligence that led to the killing of Osama bin Laden?

As intelligence officials disclosed the trail of evidence that led to the compound in Pakistan where Bin Laden was hiding, a chorus of Bush administration officials claimed vindication for their policy of “enhanced interrogation techniques” like waterboarding.

Among them was John Yoo, a former Justice Department official who wrote secret legal memorandums justifying brutal interrogations. “President Obama can take credit, rightfully, for the success today,” Mr. Yoo wrote Monday in National Review, “but he owes it to the tough decisions taken by the Bush administration.”

But a closer look at prisoner interrogations suggests that the harsh techniques played a small role at most in identifying Bin Laden’s trusted courier and exposing his hide-out. One detainee who apparently was subjected to some tough treatment provided a crucial description of the courier, according to current and former officials briefed on the interrogations. But two prisoners who underwent some of the harshest treatment -- including Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, who was waterboarded 183 times -- repeatedly misled their interrogators about the courier’s identity.

The Times pitted “conservatives” against “human rights advocates” while using strong language like "torture," "harrowing," and "brutal" (again) to describe the interrogations.

Read more: http://www.newsbusters.org/blogs/clay-waters/2011/05/04/ny-times-ignores-panetta-assures-us-brutal-interrogations-didnt-help-tr#ixzz1LQN30EW0

Noir

05-04-2011, 05:37 PM

Members of the US military are waterboarded as part of their training Noir. So using your "thinking" the US government "tortures" them

Again Noir, you have to ask about the mental state of a terrorist who used a hacksaw and cut the head off a helpless man and gleefully showed it happening on the internet?

Well yes, that's part of the training. The same happens here with the SAS, they are kidnapped and subjected to torture. I don't know if theSAS one also involves waterboarding, will look it up.

red states rule

05-05-2011, 02:47 AM

Well yes, that's part of the training. The same happens here with the SAS, they are kidnapped and subjected to torture. I don't know if theSAS one also involves waterboarding, will look it up.

According to you, and your buddies here on this thread, we are subjecting our own military members to "torture" Noir

But again, you ignore the success we got with waterboarding, the fact only three terrorists were ever waterboarded, and now the #1 talking point libs used that waterboarding did not get any useful info has went up in smoke

Noir

05-05-2011, 02:55 AM

According to you, and your buddies here on this thread, we are subjecting our own military members to "torture" Noir

But again, you ignore the success we got with waterboarding, the fact only three terrorists were ever waterboarded, and now the #1 talking point libs used that waterboarding did not get any useful info has went up in smoke

Yes, if someone is subjected to torture training then they will be tortured. That's the whole point.

The success point does not relate to it being torture or not.

red states rule

05-05-2011, 03:02 AM

Yes, if someone is subjected to torture training then they will be tortured. That's the whole point.

The success point does not relate to it being torture or not.

Well you can feel good that if you were in charge Noir, OBL would be alive and well. He would be planning th next attack where innocent peoiple would be killed

You can pat yourself on the back Noir knowing that and have that sense of liberal pride run thru your veins

As the blood of the terror plot spills out onto the street from their veins

Noir

05-05-2011, 03:21 AM

Well you can feel good that if you were in charge Noir, OBL would be alive and well. He would be planning th next attack where innocent peoiple would be killed

You can pat yourself on the back Noir knowing that and have that sense of liberal pride run thru your veins

As the blood of the terror plot spills out onto the street from their veins

I'm sure you're well aware of the Franklin quote "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

If you think as a principle it's okay for your government to waterboard people fair enough. I don't. Simple.

red states rule

05-05-2011, 03:25 AM

I'm sure you're well aware of the Franklin quote "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

If you think as a principle it's okay for your government to waterboard people care enough. I don't. Simple.

and the the world of liberals those who saved their lives and kept them safe face jail time

As the whole of America takes a bin Laden victory lap, let us pause to remember some of this celebrated event's most forgotten men: the Central Intelligence Agency officers who sit under the cloud of a criminal investigation begun in 2009 by Attorney General Eric Holder into their interrogations of captured terrorists.

That's right, the Americans whose interrogation of al Qaeda operatives may have put in motion the death of this mass murderer may themselves face prosecution by the country they were trying to protect.

It is time for the Holder CIA investigation to end. The death of bin Laden 10 years after 9/11 makes the Holder investigation of the CIA interrogators politically, emotionally and morally moot.

But it lives.

In August 2009, Attorney General Holder announced that he was extending the mandate of Assistant U.S. Attorney John Durham into the CIA's so-called "enhanced interrogation techniques" of terrorist detainees. Former Bush Attorney General Michael Mukasey had appointed Mr. Durham in 2008 as a special prosecutor to look into the CIA's destruction of videotapes made during interrogations of two al Qaeda operatives. That investigation ended without charges last November.

Mr. Holder decided to push the Durham investigation into a second phase. "I have concluded," he said "that the information known to me warrants opening a preliminary review into whether federal laws were violated in connection with the interrogation of specific detainees at overseas locations." Mr. Holder wasn't free-lancing; both he and Barack Obama had called waterboarding "torture."

This week the Associated Press reported that the name of bin Laden's courier may have come from CIA interrogations of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and Abu Faraj al-Libi, who received "harsh" interrogation at CIA prisons in Poland and Romania. On Tuesday, Mr. Holder said the information came from a "mosaic of sources."

Incidentally, there will be no attempt here to establish whether CIA interrogations did or did not lead to the bin Laden courier, who led our commandos to a bedroom in Abbottabad. Just as there will be no attempt here to resolve the fastidious debate unfolding over whether the Navy Seals' shooting of an unarmed Osama bin Laden was "legal." We'll leave that to the endless grinding wheels of the law journals.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703937104576302890747157756.html

Noir

05-05-2011, 07:11 AM

and the the world of liberals those who saved their lives and kept them safe face jail time

If they broke the law they should be held to account, even if they broke it for a greater good.

Gaffer

05-05-2011, 03:28 PM

red states rule

05-05-2011, 03:58 PM

I would describe reading a post by gabby or pickledbrain as torture. They are perfectly safe, but they make make you feel like your head will explode.

It could also be described as standing on one side of a room, lowering your head, and running full speed into the opposite wall

It hurts like hell and accomplishes nothing

red states rule

05-05-2011, 05:05 PM

http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/GM110505CLR-Waterboa20110505020214.jpg

Noir

05-05-2011, 05:51 PM

Water boarding is psychological torture, not physical torture. You feel like your being drown but your perfectly safe. Someone that experiences it would describe it as torture.

I would describe reading a post by gabby or pickledbrain as torture. They are perfectly safe, but they make make you feel like your head will explode.

You do not feel like you are being drowned. You are being drowned. Just in a controlled way, and if it is done wrongly you can die from it.

jimnyc

05-05-2011, 07:30 PM

You do not feel like you are being drowned. You are being drowned. Just in a controlled way, and if it is done wrongly you can die from it.

Ummm.....NO! How can you be drowning if water never enters your lungs?

Here's an excerpt from a once classified document explaining the procedure:

In this procedure, the individual is bound securely to an inclined bench, which is approximately four feet by seven feet. The individual's feet are generally elevated. A cloth is placed over the forehead and eyes. Water is then applied to the cloth in a controlled manner. As this is done, the cloth is lowered until it covers both the nose and mouth. Once the cloth is saturated and completely covers the mouth and nose, air flow is slightly restricted for 20 to 40 seconds due to the presence of the cloth. This causes an increase in carbon dioxide level in the individual's blood. This increase in the carbon dioxide level stimulates increased effort to breathe. This effort plus the cloth produces the perception of "suffocation and incipient panic," i.e., the perception of drowning. The individual does not breathe any water into his lungs. During those 20 to 40 seconds, water is continuously applied from a height of twelve to twenty-four inches. After this period, the cloth is lifted, and the individual is allowed to breathe unimpeded for three or four full breaths. the sensation of drowning is immediately relieved by the removal of the cloth. The procedure may then be repeated. The water is usually applied from a canteen cup or small watering can with a spout. You have orally informed us that this procedure triggers an automatic physiological sensation of drowning that the individual cannot control even though he may be aware that he is not in fact drowning. You have also orally informed us that it is likely that this procedure would not last more than twenty minutes in any one application.
http://www.fas.org/irp/agency/doj/olc/zubaydah.pdf

It might be best to listen to the military folks that post on here instead of "Hitchens" and left wing websites.

Gaffer

05-05-2011, 08:52 PM

You do not feel like you are being drowned. You are being drowned. Just in a controlled way, and if it is done wrongly you can die from it.

Like I said, it's psychological torture. You feel like your drowning. The amount of water used is about a quart and it never enters the mouth. The mind panics.

Noir

05-05-2011, 10:24 PM

Like I said, it's psychological torture. You feel like your drowning. The amount of water used is about a quart and it never enters the mouth. The mind panics.

No you are drowning, you can not stop water going down your nose (and eventually) down your mouth.

The head is tilted back and water is poured into the upturned mouth or nose. Eventually the subject cannot exhale more air or cough out more water, the lungs are collapsed, and the sinuses and trachea are filled with water. The subject is drowned from the inside, filling with water from the head down. The chest and lungs are kept higher than the head so that coughing draws water up and into the lungs while avoiding total suffocation

Noir

05-05-2011, 10:27 PM

Here is an interesting detail I stumbled upon, regarding the 'proof water boarding does work'

"Mohammed did not reveal the names while being subjected to the simulated drowning technique known as waterboarding, former officials said. He identified them many months later under standard interrogation, they said, leaving it once again up for debate as to whether the harsh technique was a valuable tool or an unnecessarily violent tactic. It took years of work for intelligence agencies to identify the courier's real name, which officials are not disclosing."
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110502/ap_on_re_us/us_bin_laden_hunt_for_bin_laden

Hm....

gabosaurus

05-05-2011, 11:29 PM

Waterboarding is for pansies...

<iframe width="425" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/XnS49c9KZw8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

red states rule

05-06-2011, 03:03 AM

Obama did not want to talk about the pending criminal cases against the
CIA interrogators with one of the family memebers of the 9/11 victims

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revelarts

05-06-2011, 05:59 AM

jimnyc

05-06-2011, 06:11 AM

No you are drowning, you can not stop water going down your nose (and eventually) down your mouth.

Ok, now let's link to the page that your quote came from, and you conveniently didn't link to:

http://waterboarding.org/info

And now let's add the disclaimer at the bottom of the page which you conveniently forgot to add, which is basically what I already posted:

Correction: Early drafts of this page indicated that waterboarding included inhaling water into the lungs. The recently declassified Bybee Memo's official procedure (http://waterboarding.org/official_procedure) is to prevent this.

fj1200

05-06-2011, 07:04 AM

How about we offer to the left the olive branch that waterboarding should be "safe, legal, and rare." ;) I'm sure that they would agree with that position. :salute:

revelarts

05-06-2011, 07:11 AM

How about we offer to the left the olive branch that waterboarding should be "safe, legal, and rare." ;) I'm sure that they would agree with that position. :salute:

We see how well that's worked. Abortion legal till half-way out.

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And it you honestly take a look at getting intel , as in my above post, it's still a question weather or not they "work" at all.
the FACT that there are alternatives that "WORK" is proven.
we don't need it. period paragraph.

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revelarts

05-06-2011, 12:27 PM

Another soft Lefty
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red states rule

05-06-2011, 03:39 PM

seems the lioberal media is ignoring what Debra Burlingame is saying about Pres Obama and his rude treatment of her

Does the name Cindy Shehann mean anything to anyone? The liberal media savaged Pres Bush over his "treatment" of a mother who lost her son in the war

President Barack Obama's Ground Zero visit yesterday was "pitch perfect," according to former Newsweek editor Jon Meacham, despite reports that the commander-in-chief was rude and dismissive toward at least one American who lost a family member on Sept. 11, 2001.

On the May 6 edition of "Morning Joe," MSNBC anchor Willie Geist asked Meacham to characterize the significance of Obama's visit to the site where more than 3,000 people were slaughtered in an attack planned by deceased al-Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden.

"I thought it was pitch perfect in the sense of it was not about him," intoned Meacham, who now occasionally writes for Time magazine. "It was not the grand speech; it was him doing a kind of human interaction with the folks."

The Random House executive vice president's account of the memorial service conflicted with that of Debra Burlingame, whose brother was the pilot of the American Airlines flight that was hijacked and crashed into the Pentagon, killing 184 people.

Burlingame told Fox News on Thursday that she asked Obama during a private meeting with families of victims if he would consider advising Attorney General Eric Holder to halt his investigation of CIA agents who employed enhanced interrogation techniques on suspected terrorists.

The president, said Burlingame, rejected the victim's request before "he turned around and walked away."

Read more: http://www.newsbusters.org/blogs/alex-fitzsimmons/2011/05/06/obama-snubs-911-family-member-fmr-newsweek-editor-jon-meacham-laud#ixzz1LbgAxDDE

Noir

05-06-2011, 04:30 PM

Ok, now let's link to the page that your quote came from, and you conveniently didn't link to:

http://waterboarding.org/info

And now let's add the disclaimer at the bottom of the page which you conveniently forgot to add, which is basically what I already posted:

I have Mentioned where I got the data from.

Also, you do not need to have water in your lungs to drown, all you need is enough water in the right (or wrong) place to enduce laryngospasm (this is sometimes known as 'dry drowning)

Noir

05-06-2011, 04:32 PM

I'm surprisesd the post that I've put here that I consider most relevant to the OP and a direct challenge to the topic title has been ignored thus far by rsr etc. So I'll repost less it be lost...

"Mohammed did not reveal the names while being subjected to the simulated drowning technique known as waterboarding, former officials said. He identified them many months later under standard interrogation, they said, leaving it once again up for debate as to whether the harsh technique was a valuable tool or an unnecessarily violent tactic. It took years of work for intelligence agencies to identify the courier's real name, which officials are not disclosing."

red states rule

05-06-2011, 04:34 PM

Noir

05-06-2011, 04:42 PM

I have never seen so many people so worried about three terrorists who have murdered so many people - and are willing to allow more attacks to happen - so the terrorists are not "abused"

Indeed.

You've again kinda completely ignored the quote that suggests very strongly that the water boarding had nothing to do with information that lead to obl being found. Any comment on that quote?

red states rule

05-06-2011, 04:43 PM

Indeed.

You've again kinda completely ignored the quote that suggests very strongly that the water boarding had nothing to do with information that lead to obl being found. Any comment on that quote?

So Leon Panetta (the head of the CIA) is a liar?

red states rule

05-06-2011, 04:47 PM

http://pajamasmedia.com/tatler/files/2011/05/bush-vindication.jpg

Noir

05-06-2011, 04:48 PM

So Leon Panetta (the head of the CIA) is a liar?

Ofcourse not, Leon would never lie. How silly of me.

red states rule

05-06-2011, 04:50 PM

Ofcourse not, Leon would never lie. How silly of me.

and we have this

A former head of counterterrorism at the CIA, who was investigated last year by the Justice Department for the destruction of videos showing senior al-Qaeda officials being interrogated, says that the harsh questioning of terrorism suspects produced the information that eventually led to Osama bin Laden's death.

Jose Rodriguez ran the CIA's CounterTerrorism Center from 2002 to 2005 during the period when top al-Qaeda leaders Khalid Sheikh Mohammad (KSM) and Abu Faraj al-Libbi were taken into custody and subjected to "enhanced interrogation techniques" at secret black site prisons overseas. KSM was subjected to waterboarding, sleep deprivation and other techniques. Al Libbi was not waterboarded, but other EITs were used on him. (See pictures of the waterboarding protest.)

"Information provided by KSM and Abu Faraj al Libbi about Bin Laden's courier was the lead information that eventually led to the location of [bin Laden's] compound and the operation that led to his death," Rodriguez tells TIME in his first public interview. Rodriguez was cleared of charges in the video destruction investigation last year.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/httpswamplandtimecom20110504didtorturegettheusosam abinladenxidrssfullnationyahoo

and the liberal media is running around in a fernzy trying to deny these facts Noir

Pres Bush was right after all!!!

revelarts

05-06-2011, 04:59 PM

red states rule

05-06-2011, 05:03 PM

Your running around in a frenzy trying to justify torture of "just 3" terrorist.
And have ignored what I posted as well. that also mentions the NON torture technics that worked Just fine on on HARDENED terrorist.

another point is that this imagined "useful" info doesn't fall in the category so often used by the torture defenders.
Where's the ticking bomb here? took years to follow up on the imagined scrap of info rung out of "Only 3" victims.

No ticking bomb no need for torture correct?

It is not "imagined" and has been confirmed by the head of the CIA and those who did the questioning

The bottom line is, those who screamed the loudest that waterboarding obtained ANY useful info are now having to eat a massive shitburger

Kathianne

05-06-2011, 05:27 PM

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/42880435/ns/today-today_news/t/cia-chief-waterboarding-aided-bin-laden-raid/

CIA chief: Waterboarding aided bin Laden raid
Attorney general tells Congress that operation into Pakistan was legal

WASHINGTON — Intelligence garnered from waterboarded detainees was used to track down al-Qaida leader Osama bin Laden and kill him, CIA Chief Leon Panetta told NBC News on Tuesday.

"Enhanced interrogation techniques" were used to extract information that led to the mission's success, Panetta said during an interview with anchor Brian Williams. Those techniques included waterboarding, he acknowledged.

Panetta, who in a 2009 CIA confirmation hearing declared "waterboarding is torture and it's wrong," said Tuesday that debate about its use will continue.

"Whether we would have gotten the same information through other approaches I think is always gonna be an open question," Panetta said.

"In the intelligence business you work from a lot of sources of information and that was true here," Panetta said. "We had a multiple source — a multiple series of sources — that provided information with regards to the situation. Clearly some of it came from detainees and the interrogation of detainees but we also had information from other sources as well."

Panetta's comments hours after Attorney General Eric Holder defended as lawful Tuesday the intelligence gathering and raid that resulted in the death of al-Qaida leader Osama bin Laden...

The waterboarding or other techniques used get the subject to 'break.' Confessions or information given at that point would be dubious at best. With time though, that information and what comes after can be checked and verified or not. That is where it's value comes in.

red states rule

05-06-2011, 05:37 PM

revelarts

05-06-2011, 05:53 PM

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/42880435/ns/today-today_news/t/cia-chief-waterboarding-aided-bin-laden-raid/

The waterboarding or other techniques used get the subject to 'break.' Confessions or information given at that point would be dubious at best. With time though, that information and what comes after can be checked and verified or not. That is where it's value comes in.

Ticking time bomb? no.

General Patraus and interrogators in Iraq said that more U.S. soldiers died in Iraq becuase of or torture. That possible half of our dead soldiers could be becuase of our torture policies. there no value there

REPORTER: Can you say if there’s been any change in President Obama’s opposition to so-called "enhanced interrogation techniques"?

PRESS SECRETARY JAY CARNEY: No change whatsoever.

REPORTER: Were any results of such techniques used in helping to track down bin Laden?

PRESS SECRETARY JAY CARNEY: Mark, the fact is that no single piece of information led to the successful mission that occurred on Sunday. And multiple detainees provided insights into the networks of people who might have been close to bin Laden, but reporting from detainees was just a slice of the information that has been gathered by incredibly diligent professionals over the years in the intelligence community. And it’s simply strange credulity to suggest that a piece of information that may or may not have been gathered in—eight years ago somehow directly led to a successful mission on Sunday. That’s just not the case.

AMY GOODMAN: That was White House Press Secretary Jay Carney.

To discuss the issue, we go to Los Angeles to talk to Matthew Alexander, a former senior military interrogator who conducted or supervised over 1,300 interrogations in Iraq, leading to the capture of numerous al-Qaeda leaders. His latest book is called Kill or Capture: How a Special Operations Task Force Took Down a Notorious Al Qaeda Terrorist. He’s currently a fellow at UCLA’s Burkle Center for International Relations.

Matthew Alexander, welcome to Democracy Now! What do you make of this debate that is raging right now about torture and its effectiveness?

MATTHEW ALEXANDER: Good morning, Amy.

The debate is skewed at this point. And one reason why is because we don’t know all the details, and secondly, because a lot is being left out of the conversation. And let me talk a little bit about that. One of the things that people aren’t talking about is the fact that one of the people that was confronted with this information that bin Laden had a courier is Sheikh al-Libi, who was held in a CIA secret prison and was tortured and who gave his CIA interrogators the name of the courier as being Maulawi Jan. And the CIA chased down that information and found out that person didn’t exist, that al-Libi had lied. And nobody is talking about the fact that al-Libi caused us to waste resources and time by chasing a false lead because he was tortured.

The other thing that’s being left out of this conversation is the fact that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed certainly knew the real name of the courier, whose nom de guerre or nickname was Abu Ahmed al-Kuwaiti. But Khalid Sheikh Mohammed had to have known his real name or at least how to find him, a location that we might look, but he never gave up that information. And so, what we’re seeing is that waterboarding and enhanced interrogation techniques, just like professional interrogators have been saying for years, always result in either limited information, false information or no information....

http://www.democracynow.org/2011/5/4/former_military_interrogator_matthew_alexander_des pite

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/06/torture-may-have-slowed-h_n_858642.html

When the NY Times runs a op-ed for the sole purpose of damage control, you know waterboarding worked

what? we know waterboarding works becuase the New York Times? The same NYT that BROKE the bogus stories about Yellow cake and Aluminum tubes that help gin up out of nothing the Iraq portion of war in the 1st place.
what the heck are you smoking Red? ONLY 3 people were tortured. why not drop it altogther.
there is no ticking bomb.
we can take our time.
There are BETTER WAYS, Ways that don't incite more violence or produce MORE terrorist.
we don't need torture.

Kathianne

05-06-2011, 05:56 PM

You're repeating yourself.

jimnyc

05-06-2011, 05:57 PM

I have Mentioned where I got the data from.

Also, you do not need to have water in your lungs to drown, all you need is enough water in the right (or wrong) place to enduce laryngospasm (this is sometimes known as 'dry drowning)

Nice try, but that's not "drowning", and that would also mean that prisoners could die from acid reflux!

A person CANNOT drown without water entering the lungs, and waterboarding does not put water into the lungs.

I would once again suggest that you listen to the professionals and military experts rather than radio hosts, writers and lefty websites.

I'm surprisesd the post that I've put here that I consider most relevant to the OP and a direct challenge to the topic title has been ignored thus far by rsr etc. So I'll repost less it be lost...

"Mohammed did not reveal the names while being subjected to the simulated drowning technique known as waterboarding, former officials said. He identified them many months later under standard interrogation, they said, leaving it once again up for debate as to whether the harsh technique was a valuable tool or an unnecessarily violent tactic. It took years of work for intelligence agencies to identify the courier's real name, which officials are not disclosing."

It's called "CYA". It's already been documented by MANY sources that Muhammed gave up the "Nom de Guerre", or Al Qaeda name, of Bin Ladens courier. TOO many sources on the same page and then once the complaining starts it gets pulled back a little. But I'll stick with the CIA gents that spoke out, as well as the director himself, and those in congress...

But assume for a split second that he didn't give it up for a few months after he was waterboarded - I'm willing to bet the fear of going upside down with the water once again had him speaking up a little faster!

Either way, I couldn't give 2 shits what people like you and Rev think, and how many Youtube videos get posted. There will always be men in charge within the CIA and our Military with the balls to do whatever it takes to take down shitheads like muhammed and OBL. You guys can whine forever, and these practices will continue at the same time, no matter how much you whine and even with the president disagreeing. The CIA will just do so in foreign countries in hidden prisons. And for that, I applaud them and congratulate them.

jimnyc

05-06-2011, 05:59 PM

Ticking time bomb? no.

General Patraus and interrogators in Iraq said that more U.S. soldiers died in Iraq becuase of or torture. That possible half of our dead soldiers could be becuase of our torture policies. there no value there

http://www.democracynow.org/2011/5/4/former_military_interrogator_matthew_alexander_des pite

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/06/torture-may-have-slowed-h_n_858642.html

what? we know waterboarding works becuase the New York Times? The same NYT that BROKE the bogus stories about Yellow cake and Aluminum tubes that help gin up out of nothing the Iraq portion of war in the 1st place.
what the heck are you smoking Red? ONLY 3 people were tortured. why not drop it altogther.
there is no ticking bomb.
we can take our time.
There are BETTER WAYS, Ways that don't incite more violence or produce MORE terrorist.
we don't need torture.

All it takes is ONE fucking terrorist to kill thousands. Luckily for us there are men with the balls to ignore people like you and do what is necessary to stop that from ever happening again.

revelarts

05-06-2011, 06:02 PM

jimnyc

05-06-2011, 06:04 PM

becuase people seem not to be listening. or even acknowledging certain facts.
While fervently trying to defend and promote a policies condemned for centuries by people of good conscious world wide.

I'll repeat it till i'm dead.

in the words of Fox News Anchor Shepard Smith.
"WE ARE AMERICA ..WE DON"T TORTURE!!!"

"We are America, We will fuck up and destroy the terrorists by any means necessary. We will NEVER FORGET"

Those are my fucking words.

red states rule

05-06-2011, 06:26 PM

Kath i keep repeating becuase people seem not to be listening. or even acknowledging certain facts.
While fervently trying to defend and promote policies condemned for centuries by people of good conscious world wide.

I'll repeat it till i'm dead.

in the words of Fox News Anchor Shepard Smith.
"WE ARE AMERICA ..WE DON"T TORTURE!!!"

You are repeating yourself because you are running out of ammo. You are losing, the facts are going against you, and like a drowning man you cling to the small branch that is floating by

Kathianne

05-06-2011, 06:46 PM

Kath i keep repeating becuase people seem not to be listening. or even acknowledging certain facts.
While fervently trying to defend and promote policies condemned for centuries by people of good conscious world wide.

I'll repeat it till i'm dead.

in the words of Fox News Anchor Shepard Smith.
"WE ARE AMERICA ..WE DON"T TORTURE!!!"

You certainly have every right to your opinion, you don't have the right to spam with the same links over and over again. Find something new.

jimnyc

05-06-2011, 06:51 PM

I'll repeat it till i'm dead.

Keep trying to tie the hands of our military and intelligence agencies and that may come quicker than you would like.

jimnyc

05-07-2011, 07:54 AM

The debate is very similar throughout America, but obviously there is tons of support for waterboarding, and even more support for not going after those who used the technique to gather the information we discussed. Seems that even some who might be against the technique, or on the edge, have a little bit of a different viewpoint when it comes to having it done to known terrorists.

WASHINGTON (CNN) - A new national poll indicates that most Americans don't want to see an investigation of Bush administration officials who authorized harsh interrogation techniques on suspected terrorists, even though most people think such procedures were forms of torture. Six in ten people questioned in a CNN/Opinion Research Corporation survey released Wednesday believe that some of the procedures, such as water boarding, were a form of torture, with 36 percent disagreeing.
But half the public approves of the Bush administration's decision to use of those techniques during the questioning of suspected terrorists, with 50 percent in approval and 46 percent opposed.

"Roughly one in five Americans believe those techniques were torture but nonetheless approve of the decision to use those procedures against suspected terrorists," says CNN Polling Director Keating Holland. "That goes a long way toward explaining why a majority don't want to see former Bush officials investigated."

Fifty-seven percent of those questioned don't want Congress to investigate Bush officials who authorized those harsh interrogation procedures, with 42 percent calling for action by lawmakers. Fifty-five percent also don't want a similar investigation by an independent panel.

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2009/05/06/poll-dont-investigate-torture-techniques/

red states rule

05-07-2011, 07:56 AM

revelarts

05-07-2011, 09:07 AM

We Didn't Need Torture against the NAZIs.

Fort Hunt's Quiet Men Break Silence on WWII
Interrogators Fought 'Battle of Wits'

For six decades, they held their silence.

The group of World War II veterans kept a military code and the decorum of their generation, telling virtually no one of their top-secret work interrogating Nazi prisoners of war at Fort Hunt.

When about two dozen veterans got together yesterday for the first time since the 1940s, many of the proud men lamented the chasm between the way they conducted interrogations during the war and the harsh measures used today in questioning terrorism suspects.

Back then, they and their commanders wrestled with the morality of bugging prisoners' cells with listening devices. They felt bad about censoring letters. They took prisoners out for steak dinners to soften them up. They played games with them.

"We got more information out of a German general with a game of chess or Ping-Pong than they do today, with their torture," said Henry Kolm, 90, an MIT physicist who had been assigned to play chess in Germany with Hitler's deputy, Rudolf Hess. ...
Several of the veterans, all men in their 80s and 90s, denounced the controversial techniques. And when the time came for them to accept honors from the Army's Freedom Team Salute, one veteran refused, citing his opposition to the war in Iraq and procedures that have been used at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba. ...
..The interrogators had standards that remain a source of pride and honor.

"During the many interrogations, I never laid hands on anyone," said George Frenkel, 87, of Kensington. "We extracted information in a battle of the wits. I'm proud to say I never compromised my humanity." ...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/05/AR2007100502492.html?hpid=topnews

How did we ever get any intell from the Evil Krauts and Hilters deputy Hess without some enhanced techniques? Don't those WW2 guys have balls, how did we ever win the war?

Or is that the terrorist are worse that those that committed genocide, made lampshades out of human skin and thought they were the master race. All al qaeda 3000 terror worldwide are special hardened cases? no, i don't think so.

Red you and Jim want me and others to acknowledge the "torture works" not only that but that it's sometimes necessary.

My answer is that it works poorly and is NOT necessary.

You also assert that torture is somehow manly.
That real men torture or at least real men believe other men should.
It's not the way my Dad or grandfather raised me.
i'm not sure why someone would get that idea, TV maybe.
But Mr.P wrote and interesting piece long ago that comes to mind about the difference between sheep dogs and wolves.

Normal Non-Enhanced techniques work better.

Real world successful interrogators tell us they get More and better info withOUT torture. Will you Admit or acknowledge THAT?
as mentioned before.

Written Statement of FBI interrogator Ali Soufan to the Senate judiciary committee May 2009
He said they got more Abu Zubaydah from normal interrogation. and that harsher techniques made it more difficult to get Info.

the U.S. interogattor in Iraq, says this.

"MATTHEW ALEXANDER: My argument is pretty simple, Amy. I don’t torture because it doesn’t work. I don’t torture, because it’s immoral, and it’s against the law, and it’s inconsistent with my oath of office, in which I swore to defend the Constitution of the United States. And it’s also inconsistent with American principles. So, my primary argument against torture is one of morality, not one of efficacy.

You know, if torture did work and we could say it worked 100 percent of the time, I still wouldn’t use it. The U.S. Army Infantry, when it goes out into battle and it faces resistance, it doesn’t come back and ask for the permission to use chemical weapons. I mean, chemical weapons are extremely effective—we could say almost 100 percent effective. And yet, we don’t use them....

AMY GOODMAN: You say that the use of torture was al-Qaeda’s number one recruiting tool.

MATTHEW ALEXANDER: Yes. When I was in Iraq, I oversaw the interrogations of foreign fighters. And those foreign fighters, the majority of them, said, time and time again, the reason they had come to Iraq to fight was because of the torture and abuse of detainees at both Abu Ghraib and Guantánamo Bay. And this is not my opinion. The Department of Defense tracked these statistics. And they were briefed, every interrogator who arrived there, that torture and abuse was al-Qaeda’s number one recruiting tool.

And remember, these foreign fighters that came to Iraq, they made up 90 percent of the suicide bombers. They killed hundreds, if not thousands, of American soldiers....]

Another real world Interrogator, Former FBI assigned to the Bin Laden squad New York.
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revelarts

05-07-2011, 09:32 AM

more Military a the process of picking up suspects is flawed and torture in is useless and counterproductive.

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red states rule

05-09-2011, 02:36 AM

and how does this administration reward people who do their job well and achieve success?

By trying to put them in jail

Cheney Calls Probe of CIA Interrogators an ‘Outrage’

Former Vice President Dick Cheney said Sunday it’s an “outrage” the Obama administration continues to investigate CIA agents who interrogated terror suspects, claiming they did nothing wrong and expressing concern about the precedent it sets.

Cheney weighed in on the probe after several Republicans and other ex-officials have renewed their call for the Justice Department to drop the investigation — launched nearly two years ago by Attorney General Eric Holder — in light of the killing of Usama bin Laden.

Though it’s unclear what role so-called enhanced interrogation played in finding bin Laden, Cheney told “Fox News Sunday” the techniques probably “contributed” and suggested the circumstances make the Justice probe all the more unsettling.

“It’s unfortunate,” Cheney said. “These men deserve to be decorated. They don’t deserve to be prosecuted.”

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/fox-news-cheney-calls-probe-of-cia-interrogators-an-outrage/

red states rule

05-09-2011, 03:38 AM

Seems not ONE piece of the puzzle was obtained from waterboarding but SEVERAL pieces

snip

Consider how the intelligence that led to bin Laden came to hand. It began with a disclosure from Khalid Sheikh Mohammed (KSM), who broke like a dam under the pressure of harsh interrogation techniques that included waterboarding. He loosed a torrent of information—including eventually the nickname of a trusted courier of bin Laden.

That regimen of harsh interrogation was used on KSM after another detainee, Abu Zubaydeh, was subjected to the same techniques. When he broke, he said that he and other members of al Qaeda were obligated to resist only until they could no longer do so, at which point it became permissible for them to yield. "Do this for all the brothers," he advised his interrogators.

Abu Zubaydeh was coerced into disclosing information that led to the capture of Ramzi bin al Shibh, another of the planners of 9/11. Bin al Shibh disclosed information that, when combined with what was learned from Abu Zubaydeh, helped lead to the capture of KSM and other senior terrorists and the disruption of follow-on plots aimed at both Europe and the United States.

Another of those gathered up later in this harvest, Abu Faraj al-Libi, also was subjected to certain of these harsh techniques and disclosed further details about bin Laden's couriers that helped in last weekend's achievement.

The harsh techniques themselves were used selectively against only a small number of hard-core prisoners who successfully resisted other forms of interrogation, and then only with the explicit authorization of the director of the CIA. Of the thousands of unlawful combatants captured by the U.S., fewer than 100 were detained and questioned in the CIA program. Of those, fewer than one-third were subjected to any of these techniques.

Former CIA Director Michael Hayden has said that, as late as 2006, even with the growing success of other intelligence tools, fully half of the government's knowledge about the structure and activities of al Qaeda came from those interrogations. The Bush administration put these techniques in place only after rigorous analysis by the Justice Department, which concluded that they were lawful. Regrettably, that same administration gave them a name—"enhanced interrogation techniques"—so absurdly antiseptic as to imply that it must conceal something unlawful.

The current president ran for election on the promise to do away with them even before he became aware, if he ever did, of what they were. Days after taking office he directed that the CIA interrogation program be done away with entirely, and that interrogation be limited to the techniques set forth in the Army Field Manual, a document designed for use by even the least experienced troops. It's available on the Internet and used by terrorists as a training manual for resisting interrogation.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703859304576305023876506348.html?m od=WSJ_Opinion_LEADTop

red states rule

05-09-2011, 03:56 AM

It is immoral NOT to waterboard terrorists

Though many Democrats insist that waterboarding is never effective, it appears that they would outlaw it even if proven effective since, to them, it is a stain on the reputation of the U.S., and nothing guides liberal policy more than how a particular policy effects their reputation among their liberal and left wing colleagues across the globe. Indeed, the most often heard refrain from Democrat liberals throughout the War on Terror has been: How will this policy make the nations of the world feel about us?

What are some of the commonsense guidelines available to those who wish to do things according to a moral code yet value the lives of our children more than our reputation within left wing European salons?

There can be no doubt that temporary discomfort inflicted upon a particular terrorist is justified when done to save thousands of lives. As reported in news accounts, waterboarding has done this. Certainly, pain is not the equivalent of life itself, so that even saving one life takes precedence over the pain of the terrorist.

A moral society does not stand by, doing nothing, while an innocent person is about to be killed. It is our moral duty to stop those intent on killing innocent people, or those complicit and knowing of others who wish to kill, before the murder takes place. The "dignity" of the would-be murderer, his treatment, should be inconsequential to those in position to stop him. Indeed, by stopping the terrorist, through coercion, before he murders, we are saving the would-be murderer himself from the sin of murder.

Normal people understand their obligation to first protect and be concerned about the lives and safety of those for whom they are responsible: first, your family, then your community and nation. As a consequence, these delineations should provide moral comfort. But to child-like purists, the intellectually lazy, and those wishing to always be beyond criticism, anything harsh is unjustifiable no matter the catastrophic downside. Worse are the trans-nationalists at the New York Times and the ACLU who long ago exhibited their psychological abnormality by refusing to root for the lives of their countrymen over the lives and "sensibilities" of our enemies.

http://www.americanthinker.com/2011/05/it_is_immoral_not_to_allow_enh.html

revelarts

05-09-2011, 08:55 AM

More than 3
more than torture

DEATH UNDER U.S. INTERROGATION

http://www.projectcensored.org/top-stories/articles/7-us-operatives-torture-detainees-to-death-in-afghanistan-and-iraq/

Tom Dispatch.com, March 5, 2006
Title: “Tracing the Trail of Torture: Embedding Torture as Policy from Guantanamo to Iraq”
Author: Dahr Jamail

Faculty Evaluator: Rabi Michael Robinson
Student Researchers: Michael B Januleski Jr. and Jessica Rodas

The American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) released documents of forty-four autopsies held in Afghanistan and Iraq October 25, 2005. Twenty-one of those deaths were listed as homicides. The documents show that detainees died during and after interrogations by Navy SEALs, Military Intelligence, and Other Government Agency (OGA).

“These documents present irrefutable evidence that U.S. operatives tortured detainees to death during interrogation,” said Amrit Singh, an attorney with the ACLU. “The public has a right to know who authorized the use of torture techniques and why these deaths have been covered up.”

The Department of Defense released the autopsy reports in response to a Freedom of Information Act request filed by the ACLU, the Center for Constitutional Rights, Physicians for Human Rights, Veterans for Common Sense, and Veterans for Peace....

revelarts

05-09-2011, 05:03 PM

Ok so here we have a a detainee
held in secret
by the CIA
in a secret prison
where "enhanced" techniques are admited.
on of 28 its says who got that treatment here... is 28 more than 3? or are we only counting admitted water boarding.

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German Guy picked up by mistake and taken to Afghanistan for months and tortured then dropped off in Albania. No apology no compensation no justice. He has a case but it's been refued becuase of "state secrets"
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Tortured to Death
at least 34
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Doctors for torture,
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sundaydriver

05-09-2011, 08:07 PM

red states rule

05-10-2011, 03:18 AM

More than 3
more than torture

DEATH UNDER U.S. INTERROGATION

http://www.projectcensored.org/top-stories/articles/7-us-operatives-torture-detainees-to-death-in-afghanistan-and-iraq/

Send your "facts" over to Chris Matthews at MSNBC - he might even put you on the air :laugh2:

You might even get to sit next to Michael Moore Rev

red states rule

05-10-2011, 03:19 AM

revelarts

05-10-2011, 08:29 AM

Maybe all it takes is a real investigative journalist to find Bin Laden. I never thought myself that he was in a low density populated area along the border either. Are you going to hide in a place where hellfire missles fly regularly and you would stand out? Not me, I would head for a city.

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do you think she did any water boarding or enhanced reporting techniques to get the info? no?
She probably even sat down with the woman. Maybe had tea and cookies? Naaw that'd never work huh?

Hmm. AND she found it out in 2008 no less. go figure.

Send your "facts" over to Chris Matthews at MSNBC - he might even put you on the air.
You might even get to sit next to Michael Moore Rev

Looks like the Obama policy is simple,
We will shoot them - but we won't waterboard them
Your starting to sound like Micheal Moore Red. Supporting Obama? Why don't you get a job at Salon.com or replace Keith Obermann?

That sounds kinda silly don't it?

But Concerning facts, things like,
"George Washington was the 1st president of the United States"
it doesn't matter if Moore says it or Hannity says it, it remains a fact.
it's not partisan it's not a republican fact or a liberal fact. it's just a fact.

----"The American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) released documents of forty-four autopsies held in Afghanistan and Iraq October 25, 2005. Twenty-one of those deaths were listed as homicides. The documents show that detainees died during and after interrogations by Navy SEALs, Military Intelligence, and Other Government Agency (OGA)....

The Department of Defense released the autopsy reports in response to a Freedom of Information Act request filed by the ACLU, the Center for Constitutional Rights, Physicians for Human Rights, Veterans for Common Sense, and Veterans for Peace...." ---

This appears to be an sad fact.
It should be acknowledged on MSNBC, FOX CNN and all other media.
To ignore the facts is just dishonest.

red states rule

05-11-2011, 03:47 AM

do you think she did any water boarding or enhanced reporting techniques to get the info? no?
She probably even sat down with the woman. Maybe had tea and cookies? Naaw that'd never work huh?

Hmm. AND she found it out in 2008 no less. go figure.

Your starting to sound like Micheal Moore Red. Supporting Obama? Why don't you get a job at Salon.com or replace Keith Obermann?

That sounds kinda silly don't it?

But Concerning facts, things like,
"George Washington was the 1st president of the United States"
it doesn't matter if Moore says it or Hannity says it, it remains a fact.
it's not partisan it's not a republican fact or a liberal fact. it's just a fact.

----"The American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) released documents of forty-four autopsies held in Afghanistan and Iraq October 25, 2005. Twenty-one of those deaths were listed as homicides. The documents show that detainees died during and after interrogations by Navy SEALs, Military Intelligence, and Other Government Agency (OGA)....

The Department of Defense released the autopsy reports in response to a Freedom of Information Act request filed by the ACLU, the Center for Constitutional Rights, Physicians for Human Rights, Veterans for Common Sense, and Veterans for Peace...." ---

This appears to be an sad fact.
It should be acknowledged on MSNBC, FOX CNN and all other media.
To ignore the facts is just dishonest.

Rev, you put any stock in what the ACLU is feeding yu then I have their is beach front property in AZ I can sell you

If the crap about terrorists dying was true the NY Times, Washington Post, CNN, MSNBC, and the rest of liberal media would have been screaming the news 24/7 like they did Abu Ghraib

I can understand your desire to try and cloud the issue. You have to deal with the fact waterboarding worked after years of shouting how it did not

I hope I never find out the answer to this queston Rev, but I would like to know what you would do if you were alone in a room with a terrorist who had info on plans for a future attack. I wonder how far you would go to get the information?

I doubt if you would raise your voice to the terrorist

revelarts

05-11-2011, 06:07 AM

This denial sounds like the ones that came out to cover Gitmo and abu grad.

The MSM is more nuanced and lame than left and right. There are many U.S. stories that go under reported.

You know this. And complain often at how only Fox or some right new source is the ONLY place you hear a story.

But here's a link to the autopsies. read them for yourself.

heres an except from 1

“Final Autopsy Report: DOD 003164, (Detainee) Died as a result of asphyxia (lack of oxygen to the brain) due to strangulation as evidenced by the recently fractured hyoid bone in the neck and soft tissue hemorrhage extending downward to the level of the right thyroid cartilage. Autopsy revealed bone fracture, rib fractures, contusions in mid abdomen, back and buttocks extending to the left flank, abrasions, lateral buttocks. Contusions, back of legs and knees; abrasions on knees, left fingers and encircling to left wrist. Lacerations and superficial cuts, right 4th and 5th fingers. Also, blunt force injuries, predominately recent contusions (bruises) on the torso and lower extremities. Abrasions on left wrist are consistent with use of restraints. No evidence of defense injuries or natural disease. Manner of death is homicide. Whitehorse Detainment Facility, Nasiriyah, Iraq.”...

revelarts

05-11-2011, 08:42 AM

link to original DOD autopsy reports
http://action.aclu.org/torturefoia/released/102405/

revelarts

05-13-2011, 11:59 AM

Airforce Captain Michael Kearns worked with the key people who created the NEW enhanced "interrogation" , including a Dr Jessen, and found letters written by them he'd kept from years earlier as a SERE trainer. He makes all the points I've made and more in an interview.
the says flatly. that Torture is NOT an interrogation technique. it is an EXPLOITATION technique. ANd That the Dr.s knew that the torture does not work as an effective interrogation technique.
Here's a video and excerpts from an article that goes into detail.

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...Kearns was one of only two officers within DoD qualified to teach all three SERE-related courses within SSTP on a worldwide basis, according to a copy of a 1989 letter written by Aldrich, who nominated Kearns officer of the year.
He said he decided to come forward because he is outraged that Jessen used their work to help design the Bush administration’s torture program.
“I think it’s about time for SERE to come out from behind the veil of secrecy if we are to progress as a moral nation of laws,” Kearns said during a wide-ranging interview with Truthout. “To take this survival training program and turn it into some form of nationally sanctioned, purposeful program for the extraction of information, or to apply exploitation, is in total contradiction to human morality, and defies basic logic. When I first learned about interrogation, at basic intelligence training school, I read about Hans Scharff, a Nazi interrogator who later wrote an article for Argosy Magazine titled ‘Without Torture.’ That’s what I was taught – torture doesn’t work.”
What stands out in Jessen’s notes is that he believed torture was often used to produce false confessions. That was the end result after one high-value detainee who was tortured in early 2002 confessed to having information proving a link between the late Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein and al-Qaeda, according to one former Bush administration official.
It was later revealed, however, that the prisoner, Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libi, had simply provided his captors a false confession so they would stop torturing him. Jessen appeared to be concerned with protecting the US military against falling victim to this exact kind of physical and psychological pressure in a hostile detention environment, recognizing that it would lead to, among other things, false confessions....

...Kearns said the value of Jessen’s notes, particularly as they relate to the psychological aspects of the Bush administration’s torture program, cannot be overstated.
“The Jessen notes clearly state the totality of what was being reverse-engineered – not just ‘enhanced interrogation techniques,’ but an entire program of exploitation of prisoners using torture as a central pillar,” he said. “What I think is important to note, as an ex-SERE Resistance to Interrogation instructor, is the focus of Jessen’s instruction. It is exploitation, not specifically interrogation. And this is not a picayune issue, because if one were to ‘reverse-engineer’ a course on resistance to exploitation then what one would get is a plan to exploit prisoners, not interrogate them. The CIA/DoD torture program appears to have the same goals as the terrorist organizations or enemy governments for which SV-91 and other SERE courses were created to defend against: the full exploitation of the prisoner in his intelligence, propaganda, or other needs held by the detaining power, such as the recruitment of informers and double agents. Those aspects of the US detainee program have not generally been discussed as part of the torture story in the American press.”...

...The SSTP course was “specifically and intentionally designed to assist American personnel held in hostile detention,” Kearns said. It was “not designed for interrogation, and certainly not torture. ...

...The issue of “collaborating” with one’s detainer, which Jessen noted was the most important in terms of controlling a prisoner, is a common theme among the stories of detainees who were tortured and later released from Guantanamo.
For example, Mamdouh Habib, an Australian citizen who was rendered to Egypt and other countries where he was tortured before being sent to Guantanamo, wrote in his memoir, “My Story: the Tale of a Terrorist Who Wasn’t,” after he was released without charge, that interrogators at Guantanamo “tried to make detainees mistrust one another so that they would inform on each other during interrogation.”
Binyam Mohamed, am Ethiopian-born British citizen, who the US rendered to a black site prison in Morocco, said that a British intelligence informant, a person he knew and who was recurited, came to him in his Moroccan cell and told him that if he became an intelligence asset for the British, his torture, which included scalpel cuts to his penis, would end. In December 2009, British government officials released documents that show Mohamed was subjected to SERE torture techniques during his captivity in the spring of 2002.
Abdul Aziz Naji, an Algerian prisoner at Guantanamo until he was forcibly repatriated against his wishes to Algeria in July 2010, told an Algerian newspaper that “some detainees had been promised to be granted political asylum opportunity in exchange of [sic] a spying role within the detention camp.”
Mohamedou Ould Salahi, whose surname is sometimes spelled “Slahi,” is a Mauritanian who was tortured in Jordan and Guantanamo. Investigative journalist Andy Worthington reported that Salahi was subjected to “prolonged isolation, prolonged sleep deprivation, beatings, death threats, and threats that his mother would be brought to Guantanamo and gang-raped” unless he collaborated with his interrogators. Salahi finally decided to become an informant for the US in 2003. As a result, Salahi was allowed to live in a special fenced-in compound, with television and refrigerator, allowed to garden, write and paint, “separated from other detainees in a cocoon designed to reward and protect.”...

http://www.truth-out.org/cia-psychologists-notes-reveal-bushs-torture-program68542

short ABC news report on Dr. Jessens lack of qualifications.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7DYbmGP3ts&feature=player_detailpage

revelarts

05-17-2011, 09:43 PM

Outstanding article with references fully linked here (http://georgewashington2.blogspot.com/2009/04/top-interrogation-experts-say-torture.html)

....Army Field Manual 34-52 Chapter 1 says:

"Experience indicates that the use of force is not necessary to gain the cooperation of sources for interrogation. Therefore, the use of force is a poor technique, as it yields unreliable results, may damage subsequent collection efforts, and can induce the source to say whatever he thinks the interrogator wants to hear."

A declassified FBI e-mail dated May 10, 2004, regarding interrogation at Guantanamo states "[we] explained to [the Department of Defense], FBI has been successful for many years obtaining confessions via non-confrontational interviewing techniques." (see also this)

Brigadier General David R. Irvine, retired Army Reserve strategic intelligence officer who taught prisoner interrogation and military law for 18 years with the Sixth Army Intelligence School, says torture doesn't work

The CIA's own Inspector General wrote that waterboarding was not "efficacious" in producing information

A former FBI interrogator -- who interrogated Al Qaeda suspects -- says categorically that torture does not help collect intelligence. On the other hand he says that torture actually turns people into terrorists

A 30-year veteran of CIA’s operations directorate who rose to the most senior managerial ranks, says:

“The administration’s claims of having ‘saved thousands of Americans’ can be dismissed out of hand because credible evidence has never been offered — not even an authoritative leak of any major terrorist operation interdicted based on information gathered from these interrogations in the past seven years. … It is irresponsible for any administration not to tell a credible story that would convince critics at home and abroad that this torture has served some useful purpose.

This is not just because the old hands overwhelmingly believe that torture doesn’t work — it doesn’t — but also because they know that torture creates more terrorists and fosters more acts of terror than it could possibly neutralize.”

The FBI interrogators who actually interviewed some of the 9/11 suspects say torture didn't work

A former US Air Force interrogator said that information obtained from torture is unreliable, and that torture just creates more terrorists

The number 2 terrorism expert for the State Department says torture doesn't work, and just creates more terrorists

A former high-level CIA officer states:

Many governments that have routinely tortured to obtain information have abandoned the practice when they discovered that other approaches actually worked better for extracting information. Israel prohibited torturing Palestinian terrorist suspects in 1999. Even the German Gestapo stopped torturing French resistance captives when it determined that treating prisoners well actually produced more and better intelligence.

The Senate Armed Services Committee unanimously found that torture doesn't work.

A former CIA station chief in Pakistan who served at the agency for three decades doubts that torture saved any lives

Still don't believe it? These people also say torture doesn't produce usable intelligence:

Former high-level CIA official Bob Baer said "And torture -- I just don't think it really works ... you don't get the truth. What happens when you torture people is, they figure out what you want to hear and they tell you."

Rear Admiral (ret.) John Hutson, former Judge Advocate General for the Navy, said "Another objection is that torture doesn't work. All the literature and experts say that if we really want usable information, we should go exactly the opposite way and try to gain the trust and confidence of the prisoners."

Michael Scheuer, formerly a senior CIA official in the Counter-Terrorism Center, said "I personally think that any information gotten through extreme methods of torture would probably be pretty useless because it would be someone telling you what you wanted to hear."

Dan Coleman, one of the FBI agents assigned to the 9/11 suspects held at Guantanamo said "Brutalization doesn't work. We know that. "

Many other professional interrogators say the same thing (see this, this, and this).

In fact, one of the top interrogators in Iraq got information from a high-level Al Qaeda suspect not through torture, but by giving him cookies.

And top American World War 2 interrogators got more information using chess or Ping-Pong instead of torture than those who use torture are getting today.

And the head of Britain's wartime interrogation center in London said:

“Violence is taboo. Not only does it produce answers to please, but it lowers the standard of information.”

Indeed, one of the top military interrogators said that torture does not work, that it has resulted in hundreds or thousands of deaths of U.S. soldiers, and that torture by Americans of innocent Iraqis is the main reason that foreign fighters started fighting against Americans in Iraq in the first place (in fact, the experts agree that torture reduces national security).

And - according to the experts - torture is unnecessary even to prevent "ticking time bombs" from exploding (see this, this and this). Indeed, a top expert says that torture would fail in a real 'ticking time-bomb' situation

And Dick Cheney's claim that waterboarding Khalid Shaikh Mohammed stopped a terror attack on L.A.? As the Chicago Tribune notes:

The Bush administration claimed that the waterboarding of Khalid Shaikh Mohammed helped foil a planned 2002 attack on Los Angeles -- forgetting that he wasn't captured until 2003.

(see this confirmation from the BBC: "Khalid Sheikh Mohammed ... was captured in Pakistan in 2003")..
... there's more
http://georgewashington2.blogspot.com/2009/04/top-interrogation-experts-say-torture.html

jimnyc

05-17-2011, 10:42 PM

Outstanding article with references fully linked here (http://georgewashington2.blogspot.com/2009/04/top-interrogation-experts-say-torture.html)

there's more
http://georgewashington2.blogspot.com/2009/04/top-interrogation-experts-say-torture.html

And yet the CIA director clearly stated himself that information received from men waterboarded helped lead to Bin Laden - and he was one of those against the use of waterboarding. I'll go with what worked to kill the most wanted man on Earth.

revelarts

05-18-2011, 11:59 PM

Letter from CIA's Panetta may 9

....Nearly 10 years of intensive intelligence work led the CIA to conclude that Bin Ladin was likely hiding at the compound in Abbottabad, Pakistan. there was no one “essential and indispensable” key piece of information that led us to this conclusion. Rather, the intelligence picture was developed via painstaking collection and analysis. Multiple streams of intelligence — including from detainees, but also from multiple other sources — led CIA analysts to conclude that Bin Ladin was at this compound. Some of the detainees who provided useful information about the facilitator/courier’s role had been subjected to enhanced interrogation techniques. Whether those techniques were the “only timely and effective way” to obtain such information is a matter of debate and cannot be established definitively. What is definitive is that that information was only a part of multiple streams of intelligence that led us to Bin Ladin.

Let me further point out that we first learned about the facilitator/courier’s nom de guerre from a detainee not in CIA custody in 2002. It is also important to note that some detainees who were subjected to enhanced interrogation techniques attempted to provide false or misleading information about the facilitator/courier. These attempts to falsify the facilitator/courier’s role were alerting.

In the end, no detainee in CIA custody revealed the facilitator/courier’s full true name or specific whereabouts. This information was discovered through other intelligence means.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/plum-line/post/exclusive-private-letter-from-cia-chief-undercuts-claim-torture-was-key-to-killing-bin-laden/2011/03/03/AFLFF04G_blog.html

I'm not sure what you think "worked" about the torture Jim
the 1st time we got the nickname it wasn't torture and the in the end the full name came without torture. No "KEY" Info derived. 183 times under and KSM gave up nothing "key" I'd say torture aint workin.
And then there was False info,
Then add the fact that the torture may have created 100 new Bin ladens.
It definitely created more foot soldiers.
the prices is far to high for the little to nothing, maybe so info, that was gathered by other BETTER means.

jimnyc

05-19-2011, 06:06 AM

I'm not sure what you think "worked" about the torture Jim

CIA chief: Waterboarding aided bin Laden raid

Intelligence garnered from waterboarded detainees was used to track down al-Qaida leader Osama bin Laden and kill him, CIA Chief Leon Panetta told NBC News on Tuesday.

"Enhanced interrogation techniques" were used to extract information that led to the mission's success, Panetta said during an interview with anchor Brian Williams. Those techniques included waterboarding, he acknowledged.

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/42880435/ns/today-today_news/t/cia-chief-waterboarding-aided-bin-laden-raid/

If you can't see that agencies and individuals are now playing a game of "CYA", I don't know what to tell you. But the Director of the CIA doesn't just make mistakes about something like this, something he didn;t believe in to begin with and was against to begin with.

revelarts

05-19-2011, 08:34 AM

If you can't see that agencies and individuals are now playing a game of "CYA", I don't know what to tell you. But the Director of the CIA doesn't just make mistakes about something like this, something he didn;t believe in to begin with and was against to begin with.

All due respect Jim, but if after all that's been posted here from all the expert interrogators, sere trainers, generals, history and the law you still think torture is a viable tool to use in U.S. interrogations then you are willingly blind IMO.

jimnyc

05-19-2011, 11:35 AM

All due respect Jim, but if after all that's been posted here from all the expert interrogators, sere trainers, generals, history and the law you still think torture is a viable tool to use in U.S. interrogations then you are willingly blind IMO.

It was viable enough to find/kill the most wanted man on the planet.

red states rule

05-20-2011, 03:48 AM

n0spam4me

05-27-2011, 08:45 PM

Osama bin dead for a LONG time now....
didn't happen the way that the mainstream media would have you believe.

to me, the whole excuse for ALL of the madness since 9/11
is BOGUS, because there is NO PROF at all that any airliners where hijacked on 9/11/2001.

WAKE UP AMERICA
we been hoodwinked!

jimnyc

05-27-2011, 09:00 PM

because there is NO PROF at all that any airliners where hijacked on 9/11/2001.

Now I've read and debated a lot of 9/11 conspiracies, but this one takes the cake. You're stating that the airliners that we all watched crash in NY, DC & PA , weren't even hijacked to begin with? Is it that they willingly flew into buildings? That they reached their destinations and we only saw replicas crash? That these were empty airliners and the passengers were killed elsewhere? (we had someone come up with that dandy already!).

I'm dying to know the truth!!

BUT, BUT, BUT....

Can you please start a new thread where it appropriately belongs in the conspiracy theories forum, so as not to hijack this thread. Don't worry, you can claim later it was never hijacked to begin with.

maineman

05-27-2011, 09:14 PM

jimnyc

05-27-2011, 09:20 PM

It is not too hard to imagine that the same people who are applauding the use of waterboarding would also applaud the use of other methods of interrogation that we currently consider unconstitutional if such methods resulted in getting a pedophile to confess... or a murderer... or a bank robber... or a check forger... or a jay walker.

Either we are a country of laws and of ethics, or we are not.

We applaud the use of these techniques for the war on terror, and I defy you to find us supporting use of it outside of that realm. Terrorists do not get constitutional protection. The techniques were used against 3 terrorists, plots were foiled as a result, and ultimately we killed the most wanted man on the planet as a result - and this info all came from someone who professed originally to be against waterboarding. Whether you like it or not, it WILL continue to be used secretly by agencies such as the CIA and they will easily do so in secret prisons in foreign countries. I know you'll cry and whine about it, but some day you'll get over the fact that Bin Laden and other terrorists will die as a result. And people like me will laugh knowing that all your whining and whining from those who think like you in government, won't do a damn thing to stopping those using the technique from doing so to hunt down terrorists.

maineman

05-27-2011, 09:44 PM

We applaud the use of these techniques for the war on terror, and I defy you to find us supporting use of it outside of that realm. Terrorists do not get constitutional protection. The techniques were used against 3 terrorists, plots were foiled as a result, and ultimately we killed the most wanted man on the planet as a result - and this info all came from someone who professed originally to be against waterboarding. Whether you like it or not, it WILL continue to be used secretly by agencies such as the CIA and they will easily do so in secret prisons in foreign countries. I know you'll cry and whine about it, but some day you'll get over the fact that Bin Laden and other terrorists will die as a result. And people like me will laugh knowing that all your whining and whining from those who think like you in government, won't do a damn thing to stopping those using the technique from doing so to hunt down terrorists.

treaties that are signed by the United States become THE SUPREME LAW OF THE LAND... according to the constitution that you clearly don't know fuck all about.

jimnyc

05-27-2011, 09:50 PM

treaties that are signed by the United States become THE SUPREME LAW OF THE LAND... according to the constitution that you clearly don't know fuck all about.

And yet we still use such techniques, and always will, when it comes to capturing or killing terrorists. Deal with it. Oh, and you want to get personal with me? How about I tell everyone how I fucked your fat ass of a wife while your son watched? Then I post your entire address with pictures. Then your sons address, with pictures. Then the church you go to, and the church your son goes to, so others can have fun - again.

Do you want to now get personal in this thread with me as well, where I did not with you? We can have fun all nigh and all week like this if you like. I'm giving staff strict orders NOT to ban you so we can all have fun.

maineman

05-27-2011, 09:58 PM

And yet we still use such techniques, and always will, when it comes to capturing or killing terrorists. Deal with it. Oh, and you want to get personal with me? How about I tell everyone how I fucked your fat ass of a wife while your son watched? Then I post your entire address with pictures. Then your sons address, with pictures. Then the church you go to, and the church your son goes to, so others can have fun - again.

Do you want to now get personal in this thread with me as well, where I did not with you? We can have fun all nigh and all week like this if you like. I'm giving staff strict orders NOT to ban you so we can all have fun.

hey Jim... you do what you gotta do. This is your board and you can do whatever you want. It was you posting my name that damn near got me fired a few years ago. I would not be at all surprised if you did it again. But this time, I am fully retired, so you really can't hurt me all that much... although I don't doubt your willingness to try. Like the Count of Monte Cristo said, "Do your worst".

THe fact remains. treaties are the supreme law of the land and that ain't gonna change regardless of how much of my personal information that I have shared with you in good faith you chose to spew all over the internet. That's what friends are for.

jimnyc

05-27-2011, 10:01 PM

Well this " friend" is emailing a support ticket to the writers of this board software to find out how to override the boards protection and find out how an admin is able to put a member on ignore. I'll be done with you and you can contact another admin for help. Apparently I post one way and one gets angry and post another and another gets angry. I'll take my advice that I give other members and find a way to place you on ignore. In the mean time, I will do my best to pass by any posts with your name attached.

red states rule

05-27-2011, 10:02 PM

hey Jim... you do what you gotta do. This is your board and you can do whatever you want. It was you posting my name that damn near got me fired a few years ago. I would not be at all surprised if you did it again. But this time, I am fully retired, so you really can't hurt me all that much... although I don't doubt your willingness to try. Like the Count of Monte Cristo said, "Do your worst".

THe fact remains. treaties are the supreme law of the land and that ain't gonna change regardless of how much of my personal information that I have shared with you in good faith you chose to spew all over the internet. That's what friends are for.

It would have been nice for all the people in town to know the real you MM. The man that should and preached the word of God is the same scumbag who used the "C" word toward women, wished death on people, and used the most vulgar language possible because people have a different POV on the role of government

Your ego would be cruhed knowing your real side is exposed to the light of truth and the reporter who wrote so glowing of you in the local paper would know the truth and feel like a fool

maineman

05-27-2011, 10:06 PM

maineman

05-27-2011, 10:08 PM

It would have been nice for all the people in town to know the real you MM. The man that should and preached the word of God is the same scumbag who used the "C" word toward women, wished death on people, and used the most vulgar language possible because people have a different POV on the role of government

Your ego would be cruhed knowing your real side is exposed to the light of truth and the reporter who wrote so glowing of you in the local paper would know the truth and feel like a fool

but...like I aid, red... I am retired now and nobody really gives a shit.

but hey... keep up the one liners, you are a LAUGH RIOT!

I mean it. you are a comedy god. honest.

red states rule

05-27-2011, 10:10 PM

but...like I aid, red... I am retired now and nobody really gives a shit.

but hey... keep up the one liners, you are a LAUGH RIOT!

I mean it. you are a comedy god. honest.

and I recall you said your flock would not care about what you posted. You said they all knew your were a "firey democrat" with a salty tounge

Now you say you weer nearly fired

What a tangled web we weave.....

maineman

05-27-2011, 10:16 PM

and I recall you said your flock would not care about what you posted. You said they all knew your were a "firey democrat" with a salty tounge

Now you say you weer nearly fired

What a tangled web we weave.....

my flock was never involved. Jim's buddy contacted my conference and they questioned me and my deacons. MY guys stuck with me and the forces of evil were vanquished.

red states rule

05-27-2011, 10:17 PM

my flock was never involved. Jim's buddy contacted my conference and they questioned me and my deacons. MY guys stuck with me and the forces of evil were vanquished.

Yet you posted you were nearly fired

Another lie from the master?

But what would your flock think of you if they read your "Greatest Hits"?

Kathianne

05-27-2011, 10:18 PM

and I recall you said your flock would not care about what you posted. You said they all knew your were a "firey democrat" with a salty tounge

Now you say you weer nearly fired

What a tangled web we weave.....

It almost sounds like he cared how he'd be perceived. Now that there's no money changing hands, sounds like he figures, wtf? Me? I'd care what those I respected thought of me. He does not. Then again, obvious inference, he thinks he has nothing to explain to them. The agree or they are idiots. I just bet that new members are lining up...

red states rule

05-27-2011, 10:20 PM

It almost sounds like he cared how he'd be perceived. Now that there's no money changing hands, sounds like he figures, wtf? Me? I'd care what those I respected thought of me. He does not. Then again, obvious inference, he thinks he has nothing to explain to them. The agree or they are idiots. I just bet that new members are lining up...

He realy does not care about anyone. ll he cares about is his political party and power

Like elected Dems he uses people and when they are no longer usefiul he thorws them away

I bet MM would have moved out of town if his posts became public knowledge in town. His ego would never have recovered

maineman

05-27-2011, 10:22 PM

Yet you posted you were nearly fired

Another lie from the master?

But what would your flock think of you if they read your "Greatest Hits"?

anytime the conference gets involved it's a big deal.

and if you want to send my greatest hits to my church, go for it... I guess anything that can substitute for a real life relationship has got to score some points for ya.

red states rule

05-27-2011, 10:23 PM

anytime the conference gets involved it's a big deal.

and if you want to send my greatest hits to my church, go for it... I guess anything that can substitute for a real life relationship has got to score some points for ya.

You don't care because you no longer have a role to play and a farce to maintain

You were busted and somehow you begged and pleaded your way out of trouble

No church would have a scumbag like you as their representative. But now you don't care becuase they are no longer useful to you

maineman

05-27-2011, 10:24 PM

It almost sounds like he cared how he'd be perceived. Now that there's no money changing hands, sounds like he figures, wtf? Me? I'd care what those I respected thought of me. He does not. Then again, obvious inference, he thinks he has nothing to explain to them. The agree or they are idiots. I just bet that new members are lining up...

I had a lot of new members... about 15 new members, seven confirmations, eight baptisms... but, as I said before... I am retired now and have been for nearly a year. everybody moves on.

you should try it.

maineman

05-27-2011, 10:26 PM

You don't care because you no longer have a role to play and a farce to maintain

You were busted and somehow you begged and pleaded your way out of trouble

No church would have a scumbag like you as their representative. But now you don't care becuase they are no longer useful to you

yeah... you clearly know the deal.

not only are you a comedy master, you are a UCC polity expert as well.

You are amazing.

red states rule

05-27-2011, 10:26 PM

I had a lot of new members... about 15 new members, seven confirmations, eight baptisms... but, as I said before... I am retired now and have been for nearly a year. everybody moves on.

you should try it.

Try telling that to your final Judge

But with your ego you will probably tell him it was no big deal that you broke several of his Commandments while being a jerk online and he has to move on

jimnyc

05-27-2011, 10:27 PM

my flock was never involved. Jim's buddy contacted my conference and they questioned me and my deacons. MY guys stuck with me and the forces of evil were vanquished.

YOU are a fucking liar and this can be proven. I am the one who contacted someone in your church to DEFEND you. YOU KNOW THIS TO BE FACT and now here you are acting like I was involved in what happened.

You are a lowlife scumbag and now a PROVEN liar. I will post emails that went to your church and emails from you backing up what I am stating here. It's obvious you are now writing a different tune because I made you look like the asshole you are tonight.

red states rule

05-27-2011, 10:27 PM

yeah... you clearly know the deal.

not only are you a comedy master, you are a UCC polity expert as well.

You are amazing.

Valid point

You are their white version of Rev Wright

maineman

05-27-2011, 10:28 PM

Try telling that to your final Judge

But with your ego you will probably tell him it was no big deal that you broke several of his Commandments while being a jerk online and he has to move on:laugh2:

red states rule

05-27-2011, 10:28 PM

YOU are a fucking liar and this can be proven.It's obvious you are now writing a different tune because I made you look like the asshole you are tonight.

and it took so little effort on your part Jim

maineman

05-27-2011, 10:42 PM

YOU are a fucking liar and this can be proven. I am the one who contacted someone in your church to DEFEND you. YOU KNOW THIS TO BE FACT and now here you are acting like I was involved in what happened.

You are a lowlife scumbag and now a PROVEN liar. I will post emails that went to your church and emails from you backing up what I am stating here. It's obvious you are now writing a different tune because I made you look like the asshole you are tonight.

you are absolutely right. You did a great deal of damage control when a member of your board - not a buddy - did contact my conference.

I thank you for your efforts on my behalf.

red states rule

05-27-2011, 10:44 PM

you are absolutely right. You did a great deal of damage control when a member of your board - not a buddy - did contact my conference.

I thank you for your efforts on my behalf.

and you call that an apology??

I guess that is close as MM will ever come to admitting he was wrong and acted like an asshole Jim

jimnyc

05-27-2011, 10:48 PM

you are absolutely right. You did a great deal of damage control when a member of your board - not a buddy - did contact my conference.

I thank you for your efforts on my behalf.

Proof quoted, so others will see 2x and in case the first disappears.

MM implied a buddy of mine wrote to his church. This was an "untruth". Not only not true, but the exact opposite happened - I wrote to his church vouching for his character and offered to help them in the matter in any way that I could. Shortly thereafter they finished their investigation into the matter and took no action towards him. I'm not saying I "saved" him, but my actions sure as shit didn't hurt him. And my actions sure as shit didn't warrant being turned from helping to being a part of getting him in trouble a few years later.

Let this be a lesson folks. When you hear people who talk smack about me here, or at other boards, and especially those who have been banned - or those who might be in the midst of arguing with me - take their accusations with a grain of salt.

red states rule

05-27-2011, 10:50 PM

:clap::clap::clap:
Proof quoted, so others will see 2x and in case the first disappears.

MM implied a buddy of mine wrote to his church. This was an "untruth". Not only not true, but the exact opposite happened - I wrote to his church vouching for his character and offered to help them in the matter in any way that I could. Shortly thereafter they finished their investigation into the matter and took no action towards him. I'm not saying I "saved" him, but my actions sure as shit didn't hurt him. And my actions sure as shit didn't warrant being turned from helping to being a part of getting him in trouble a few years later.

Let this be a lesson folks. When you hear people who talk smack about me here, or at other boards, and especially those who have been banned - or those who might be in the midst of arguing with me - take their accusations with a grain of salt.

:clap::clap::clap::clap:

:salute::salute::salute:

maineman

05-27-2011, 10:52 PM

Proof quoted, so others will see 2x and in case the first disappears.

MM implied a buddy of mine wrote to his church. This was an "untruth". Not only not true, but the exact opposite happened - I wrote to his church vouching for his character and offered to help them in the matter in any way that I could. Shortly thereafter they finished their investigation into the matter and took no action towards him. I'm not saying I "saved" him, but my actions sure as shit didn't hurt him. And my actions sure as shit didn't warrant being turned from helping to being a part of getting him in trouble a few years later.

Let this be a lesson folks. When you hear people who talk smack about me here, or at other boards, and especially those who have been banned - or those who might be in the midst of arguing with me - take their accusations with a grain of salt.

you are quite correct. the time line of the event did, however, start with you revealing my real name on the board. A member - certainly not your buddy - used that name and used it to contact the conference of my employer. That was certainly not anything that you could have anticipated or endorsed, and, when I contacted you about it, you went above and beyond the call of duty to mitigate the situation. Your correspondence to the conference was a critical element in diffusing the situation.

I am sorry for suggesting otherwise.